Comments on: Child Avatars in Virtual Worlds: Freedom and Progress? http://dusanwriter.com/index.php/2009/10/11/child-avatars-in-virtual-worlds-freedom-and-progress/ Virtual worlds and creativity, business, collaboration, and identity. Sat, 17 Oct 2009 08:32:47 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Alberik Rotaru http://dusanwriter.com/index.php/2009/10/11/child-avatars-in-virtual-worlds-freedom-and-progress/comment-page-1/#comment-103903 Alberik Rotaru Thu, 15 Oct 2009 10:46:56 +0000 http://dusanwriter.com/?p=1422#comment-103903 Server location is not really significant for criminal jurisidiction. Typically the offence includes both possession and dissemination. By its nature you possess child pornography where you live, not where you downloaded it from. I would not, for example, advise an Australian client to plead the TOS as a defence under any circumstance. Server location is not really significant for criminal jurisidiction. Typically the offence includes both possession and dissemination. By its nature you possess child pornography where you live, not where you downloaded it from. I would not, for example, advise an Australian client to plead the TOS as a defence under any circumstance.

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By: Lalo Telling http://dusanwriter.com/index.php/2009/10/11/child-avatars-in-virtual-worlds-freedom-and-progress/comment-page-1/#comment-103526 Lalo Telling Tue, 13 Oct 2009 22:56:16 +0000 http://dusanwriter.com/?p=1422#comment-103526 I concur with ichabod (who sounds like he's recently read Neal Stephenson's "Anathem"; I just finished it). What possible psychological difference could there be in the mind of the viewer, whether the image is a 2D representation of a 3D calculation (see also: CGI), or a 2D reproduction (film, video, photograph) of an event involving real people? Hand-waving about the source of the image makes it no less reprehensible. I concur with ichabod (who sounds like he’s recently read Neal Stephenson’s “Anathem”; I just finished it). What possible psychological difference could there be in the mind of the viewer, whether the image is a 2D representation of a 3D calculation (see also: CGI), or a 2D reproduction (film, video, photograph) of an event involving real people? Hand-waving about the source of the image makes it no less reprehensible.

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By: Adric Antfarm http://dusanwriter.com/index.php/2009/10/11/child-avatars-in-virtual-worlds-freedom-and-progress/comment-page-1/#comment-103491 Adric Antfarm Tue, 13 Oct 2009 17:39:54 +0000 http://dusanwriter.com/?p=1422#comment-103491 What....is there is a Catherine Deneuve skin/shape? Email me (or on the Dusan one). I've got a wacky idea. How about we just look at the law? The servers reside in the US oddly enough. http://www.adric.us/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/generallaw.jpg Noting the Bush admin changes.. http://www.adric.us/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/virtual.jpg You basically have a few bars to reach here (I did an article, but I am not going to whore a link on this upscale site), one the image is clearly a minor, second it's doing that nasty OR Miller which I am sorry to say depends on if your jury is in Utah or New York (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_v._California). Best of luck to you. What….is there is a Catherine Deneuve skin/shape? Email me (or on the Dusan one).

I’ve got a wacky idea. How about we just look at the law? The servers reside in the US oddly enough.

http://www.adric.us/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/generallaw.jpg

Noting the Bush admin changes..

http://www.adric.us/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/virtual.jpg

You basically have a few bars to reach here (I did an article, but I am not going to whore a link on this upscale site), one the image is clearly a minor, second it’s doing that nasty OR Miller which I am sorry to say depends on if your jury is in Utah or New York (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_v._California). Best of luck to you.

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By: ichabod Antfarm http://dusanwriter.com/index.php/2009/10/11/child-avatars-in-virtual-worlds-freedom-and-progress/comment-page-1/#comment-103136 ichabod Antfarm Mon, 12 Oct 2009 15:10:26 +0000 http://dusanwriter.com/?p=1422#comment-103136 If we must use the expression "atomic world" to describe that world which is not virtual then let's be thorough going about it and recognize that the atomic world is almost wholly virtual! (in the sense that every quantum event is best understood as a collapsing of a multitude of possibilities.) It is an important feature of our so called Real lives that they are composed chiefly of these failures of the virtual. What this underscores for me is that the relationship between virtuality and "reality" isn't nearly so hard and fast as is commonly understood. Much of what I read about Second Life tells me that a virtual world is like a parallel universe out of a cheesy sci-fi show and that, as such, what goes on there is akin to "what goes on in Vegas" (i.e. it stays in Vegas!) I no longer accept that interpretation because there are other worlds beside the "real" and the "virtual" that stitch those two supposed opposites together at the seams. I mean, of course, the Imaginary and the Symbolic - but, if that seems too technical, lets just call it Discourse. Discourse doesn't admit the distinction between virtual and real as readily as the freedom of speech folks suppose because the real Real we inhabit *is* Language itself and Language is always-already a "collapsing of a multitude of possibilities." In other words, the distinction means little when the stuff of reality is composed of virtualities in various states of collapse. I think its best to think of Second Life as an interface, a connection point, but not a connection between otherwise self-sufficient realities, more like a foreign exchange where the flow of desire is converted into the appropriate coin of the realm. It is against that backdrop that I have to place the "virtual" depiction of adult males gang-raping a six year old. Does it really matter if "no actual children were harmed" (as the mantra goes?) If we must use the expression “atomic world” to describe that world which is not virtual then let’s be thorough going about it and recognize that the atomic world is almost wholly virtual! (in the sense that every quantum event is best understood as a collapsing of a multitude of possibilities.) It is an important feature of our so called Real lives that they are composed chiefly of these failures of the virtual.

What this underscores for me is that the relationship between virtuality and “reality” isn’t nearly so hard and fast as is commonly understood. Much of what I read about Second Life tells me that a virtual world is like a parallel universe out of a cheesy sci-fi show and that, as such, what goes on there is akin to “what goes on in Vegas” (i.e. it stays in Vegas!) I no longer accept that interpretation because there are other worlds beside the “real” and the “virtual” that stitch those two supposed opposites together at the seams. I mean, of course, the Imaginary and the Symbolic – but, if that seems too technical, lets just call it Discourse. Discourse doesn’t admit the distinction between virtual and real as readily as the freedom of speech folks suppose because the real Real we inhabit *is* Language itself and Language is always-already a “collapsing of a multitude of possibilities.” In other words, the distinction means little when the stuff of reality is composed of virtualities in various states of collapse.

I think its best to think of Second Life as an interface, a connection point, but not a connection between otherwise self-sufficient realities, more like a foreign exchange where the flow of desire is converted into the appropriate coin of the realm. It is against that backdrop that I have to place the “virtual” depiction of adult males gang-raping a six year old. Does it really matter if “no actual children were harmed” (as the mantra goes?)

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By: Alberik Rotaru http://dusanwriter.com/index.php/2009/10/11/child-avatars-in-virtual-worlds-freedom-and-progress/comment-page-1/#comment-102958 Alberik Rotaru Sun, 11 Oct 2009 22:23:00 +0000 http://dusanwriter.com/?p=1422#comment-102958 I am conflicted. I have some professional background with child protection although not as a social worker. My experience, and the literature would bear me out, is that pedophiles put a great deal of time and energy into making arguments for the legitimacy of their conduct. Now it's a long, long step from ageplay in Sl to actual sexual abuse, but at least a proportion of ageplayers, by no means all or even a majority, are likely to be using SL as testbed and validation for conduct that would be clearly proscribed if done in the atomic world. It is really easy to say one right reigns supreme, but in reality there are limits to rights (yelling 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre) in US law just as there are in other legal systems. The difference is that US law tends to state a right as unlimited and then develop limitations through the courts, where Canada, for example, provides for a legislative process to develop limitations subject to a couple of constitutional tests. Sometimes the US model results in greater freedom, But sometimes it does not. Canada for instance, despite the power of Canadian parliaments and legislatures to enact limitations, allows all prisoners to vote as a result of <a href="http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/2002/2002scc68/2002scc68.html" rel="nofollow">Sauve v Chief Electoral Officer</a>. The US has a less stellar practice when it comes to prisoners and ex-prisoners voting. So I cannot see ageplay only as a free expression issue. I do not know where the balance between a child's right to safety and the right to expression should be drawn. I do say that the thing is not as simple as merely citing free expression as a supreme value. I am conflicted. I have some professional background with child protection although not as a social worker. My experience, and the literature would bear me out, is that pedophiles put a great deal of time and energy into making arguments for the legitimacy of their conduct. Now it’s a long, long step from ageplay in Sl to actual sexual abuse, but at least a proportion of ageplayers, by no means all or even a majority, are likely to be using SL as testbed and validation for conduct that would be clearly proscribed if done in the atomic world.

It is really easy to say one right reigns supreme, but in reality there are limits to rights (yelling ‘Fire!’ in a crowded theatre) in US law just as there are in other legal systems. The difference is that US law tends to state a right as unlimited and then develop limitations through the courts, where Canada, for example, provides for a legislative process to develop limitations subject to a couple of constitutional tests.

Sometimes the US model results in greater freedom, But sometimes it does not. Canada for instance, despite the power of Canadian parliaments and legislatures to enact limitations, allows all prisoners to vote as a result of Sauve v Chief Electoral Officer. The US has a less stellar practice when it comes to prisoners and ex-prisoners voting.

So I cannot see ageplay only as a free expression issue. I do not know where the balance between a child’s right to safety and the right to expression should be drawn. I do say that the thing is not as simple as merely citing free expression as a supreme value.

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By: cube inada http://dusanwriter.com/index.php/2009/10/11/child-avatars-in-virtual-worlds-freedom-and-progress/comment-page-1/#comment-102955 cube inada Sun, 11 Oct 2009 22:02:23 +0000 http://dusanwriter.com/?p=1422#comment-102955 http://www.pff.org/issues-pubs/ps/2009/ps5.8-the-day-internet-freedom-died.html well this says it all:) http://www.pff.org/issues-pubs/ps/2009/ps5.8-the-day-internet-freedom-died.html

well this says it all:)

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By: cube inada http://dusanwriter.com/index.php/2009/10/11/child-avatars-in-virtual-worlds-freedom-and-progress/comment-page-1/#comment-102949 cube inada Sun, 11 Oct 2009 21:25:55 +0000 http://dusanwriter.com/?p=1422#comment-102949 All from a generation brought up watching 30 year olds portray 15 year olds on TV for 3 decades. What's the real story? That as a culture we havent dealt with virtuality for 30 years? And last time i checked every ANIME style virtual world or animated show had "childlike" 8 year old looking characters that were supposed to be 25 year olds. And that style has grown, mainly because of "money-cost to produce" in the west and globally so lets not even really pundit about how 3d realtime immersive media" has very much to do about any of these issues. we are a media induced psychotic retarded culture growing globally before we even THOUGHT locally:). how will the future look? how will we deal with it? watch a TV. cause it is exactly what rich media- virtuality looks like. All from a generation brought up watching 30 year olds portray 15 year olds on TV for 3 decades.

What’s the real story? That as a culture we havent dealt with virtuality for 30 years?

And last time i checked every ANIME style virtual world or animated show had “childlike” 8 year old looking characters that were supposed to be 25 year olds. And that style has grown, mainly because of “money-cost to produce” in the west and globally so lets not even really pundit about how 3d realtime immersive media” has very much to do about any of these issues.

we are a media induced psychotic retarded culture growing globally before we even THOUGHT locally:).

how will the future look? how will we deal with it? watch a TV. cause it is exactly what rich media- virtuality looks like.

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By: magggnnus http://dusanwriter.com/index.php/2009/10/11/child-avatars-in-virtual-worlds-freedom-and-progress/comment-page-1/#comment-102926 magggnnus Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:50:49 +0000 http://dusanwriter.com/?p=1422#comment-102926 "To be honest he does not strike me as “as hardcore of a free speech First Amendment guy as you’ll find”." Quoted for pure Truth “To be honest he does not strike me as “as hardcore of a free speech First Amendment guy as you’ll find”.”
Quoted for pure Truth

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By: Ordinal Malaprop http://dusanwriter.com/index.php/2009/10/11/child-avatars-in-virtual-worlds-freedom-and-progress/comment-page-1/#comment-102925 Ordinal Malaprop Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:37:01 +0000 http://dusanwriter.com/?p=1422#comment-102925 To be honest he does not strike me as "as hardcore of a free speech First Amendment guy as you’ll find". To be honest he does not strike me as “as hardcore of a free speech First Amendment guy as you’ll find”.

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By: Bettina Tizzy http://dusanwriter.com/index.php/2009/10/11/child-avatars-in-virtual-worlds-freedom-and-progress/comment-page-1/#comment-102923 Bettina Tizzy Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:20:08 +0000 http://dusanwriter.com/?p=1422#comment-102923 This is going too far. Too far! I (and anyone) can be anything I want to be in a virtual world. I can be M Linden, or a head of state, or Dusan Writer, doing terrible things. I can be a trash can, a dragon, a faerie or Catherine Deneuve. I can be Christopher Robin, Piglet, Eeyore, and Tigger, too. FREEDOM OF SPEECH. Freedom of expression. Freedom. This is going too far. Too far! I (and anyone) can be anything I want to be in a virtual world. I can be M Linden, or a head of state, or Dusan Writer, doing terrible things. I can be a trash can, a dragon, a faerie or Catherine Deneuve. I can be Christopher Robin, Piglet, Eeyore, and Tigger, too.

FREEDOM OF SPEECH. Freedom of expression. Freedom.

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