Mesh is coming to Second Life. I’ve been dealing with this idea for close to three years now, when I first realized that things like prototyping and architecture could never fully “live” in Second Life until you could import mesh models.
I’ve written about it, advocated for it, spoke about it at the recent Second Life Community Center, posted thousands of words on the topic, held events at Metanomics including community forums and a full Masterclass broadcast in-world and on the Web which reached thousands of viewers.
I’ve posted examples, discussed tools, promoted things like Prim Composer as a sort of interim step, discussed how mesh will allow integration with things like Papervision, Unity3D and WebGL. I’ve held workshops and shows with architects to demonstrate use cases where mesh would make sense. I’ve suggested where mesh might head, including a road map that would include editable mesh and the ability to paint mesh objects.
I’ve been talking about this for three years, I’ve been vocal about it on every conceivable channel there is.
I’ve also written about Second Life culture and the economy. And I’ve been very clear in my opinions, across hundreds of posts, that I feel that Second Life is a world and that decisions that are made by its users and more particularly by Linden Lab should be viewed through more than one prism: it’s not just a technology. It’s a unique site of culture and community, it has an economy that’s worth millions of dollars in trade.
I’ve interviewed Tom Boellstorff twice for this reason: because the distinct perspective of an anthropologist is one lens, one example, of how you can look at something like Second Life and see how decisions on policy and implementation of new technology impact the fabric that ties people together – something like adding voice, for example, gives new tools to the people that live in that culture and changes it.
I have rarely opposed advances in technology: the problem has rarely been what’s been added. The problem has almost always been the things that were broken, the things that were never fixed, and the things that were never finished.
Instead, I have fairly relentlessly advocated for discussions that are more holistic. I was asked to review Display Names, for example, and my response was fairly typical of how I view these things: I advocated for a broader assessment of how Display Names fit into a larger vision for identity management and self-expression, to move past the ‘widget’ or ‘feature’ into something more strategic and ennobling.
My advice usually goes unheeded.
When it comes to mesh, I was one of the first people to try to paint a broader picture of what it would make possible. I avoided the mesh beta for this very reason: I didn’t want to wait to talk about it, I’d just keep plugging away at it, holding forums at Metanomics, poking the Lab to try to get dates and clarification, and pointing people in the direction of tools and resources, ideas and examples.
I tried to place mesh in the broader framework not of what would be possible in-world, but rather what it might mean for how Second Life could influence a broader digital culture by allowing variable levels of immersion, the flowing of data and collaborative spaces across platforms, and how it might allow Second Life to attract and integrate with other creative communities.
I was also very clear through all of this that the impact of mesh on the economy and culture of Second Life should never be taken lightly and that a rich, open and community-based discussion should be facilitated by Linden Lab and others so that the introduction of mesh was considered against the larger frameworks in which Second Life operates.
Clearly, I did something wrong.
Change Management
Sometimes a post sort of runs away from you. I don’t moderate comments although I’ve toyed with the idea on-and-off, but I typically think it’s better to let people sort of grind things out of their system. I expect that people will understand that the opinions of people in the comments are there own and that the fact that I don’t moderate doesn’t imply endorsement. Sometimes I reply, sometimes I simply ignore, or sometimes I jump in too, although I’m less adept with comments I think than actual posts.
I’ve almost given up blogging entirely because the shrillness, the nastiness, and the frank trolling that goes on in digital spaces upsets me. I try to guard that in myself, but clearly the better side of my nature sometimes takes a holiday.
My post on the video that Sandcastle Studios developed was clearly not my better nature. I wasn’t careful with how I worded it, it came across as vindictive or shrill, and it lacked any of the nuance or subtlety that I feel about the issue. I clearly assumed that people understood my stand on the issues because I had written close to 15,000 words on the topic over the years. This was clearly an error in judgment and my criticisms weren’t tempered.
I didn’t mention, for example, the other videos that Draxtor, Gianna and Reed had created. Here’s a great example that gives a fairly neat, clear and compelling argument for the merits of mesh:
It’s a wonderful video. It feels like the perfect complement to my own thoughts and posts on the subject. And for those of you who have the inclination, my most recent ones on the topic are here and here.
So without the larger sense of my respect for the work they had done, without knowing that I had specifically invited Reed and Gianna to be on Metanomics because of my vast respect for their insight and skills, I allowed myself to become misinterpreted to a degree that astonished me.
At the time, it really did seem like my logic wasn’t terribly complicated. And I stand by my basic problems with the video:
- Mesh is causing anxiety at a time when Second Life is sputtering along and dealing with issues like search, the Marketplace, the introduction of Display Names, and management changes at Linden Lab.
- The video, while seemingly humorous, didn’t make me laugh, but maybe that really is my lack of a sense of humor as Draxtor says. If you were rolling in the aisles laughing, I’d love to hear what you found so funny.
- By ending with the tag line “Deal with It”, what was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, gut busting hilarity, simply reasserted the types of comments that people like Reed have made in more serious venues, where he ended on a similar note: “Calm down”.
- And I actually wouldn’t have even cared. Why I REALLY cared was because Linden Lab put the video on their main channel.
- The video was not a pet project as Draxtor asserted in his comments. Linden Lab asked hundreds of people to submit videos. This is the video they submitted.
- There were other videos submitted which were not put on the main channel.
Here’s one:
I really wouldn’t have cared one way or the other. I didn’t find it particularly funny, but I also didn’t find it particularly harmful. What was harmful was that this was a video which the Lab selected as an example of how to communicate the possibilities and coming addition of mesh.
In his comments, Draxtor made the case that this was simply a personal project:
“Oh and I apologize that I am not contributing to the debate and easing anxieties of all the millions of residents with this particular machinima. I was not aware that I was hired to do that job….have to check in with management before I publish anything next time.”
And indeed, if they had published on their own and not submitted it to the Lab, and if the Lab hadn’t put it at the top of their main youTube channel – well, moving on, I guess.
You DID check with management before it was published on the Second Life main channel, because you SUBMITTED it to them. And “management” accepted.
I was very clear in my post that the astonishment, for me at least, was that the Lab selected this as the best they could do to continue communicating the feature.
So having said all that, I stand by two things: one, I should have been more generous with a broader context and demonstration of respect for the video’s creators (who, again, I’ve helped to promote and bring to a wider audience on more than one occasion); and two, I stand by my belief that Linden Lab showed a lack of judgement in choosing this as a communication tool for a significant change to the world.
A World of Meaning
You know, I don’t really know how to respond to the following comments by Draxtor, as I actually thought I was fairly open minded (although he’s right, I did bash, and I stand by that because of the reasons above, although it came across as a personal bashing of the creators as well):
“You take issue with “deal with it”? In my book this is a proactive term, implying that we better get out there and learn and debate and acquire knowledge, be open minded, instead of whining, giving in to fears and/or choosing the “bashing” response [yes, there is fight or flight, but I like to add "bashing" to that, please?]“
Or the following:
“Good thing that most users are a bit less self-involved than that & are working hard to do meaningful, good things with the platform, projects that could change the world….In re “uncreative class” – never meant to insult the legitimately anxious and answer seeking folk [remember proactive from first paragraph] by that but rather exactly people like you, who do nothing constructive, not building anything, not conceptualizing any meaningful projects, yet you claim you do by writing about those things, creating controversy, copying press releases & until the recent past, being a unofficial [paid?] spokesperson for Linden Lab, disguised as a moderator…wow….journalistic ethics anyone?”
It perplexes me, in particular, because Draxtor is intimately aware of some of the work we’re doing in Second Life. Supporting military amputees, healing communities following war, building new models for energy conservation through storytelling…
Actually, I truly don’t have the heart to defend myself or to list off my dozens of projects. I truly, truly feel, well, rather ill about it.
Mesh and the Road Ahead
Mesh is good and mesh is needed. I suppose it bears repeating that I’ve been saying this for years.
And yet I despair. And I despair because Linden Lab has a long history of failed or incomplete technology introductions: they roll-out shiny new things and then don’t ever entirely finish them: Windlight, voice (will voice EVER work properly?), Havok, Avatars United….the list is endless and I’m sure you can add your own.
They got it truly, deeply right once, when they took a holistic view and introduced C/M/T and the concept of rentable land.
Mesh isn’t just a new feature, a new technology that allows new types of content. Mesh has, like other things, the potential to rapidly accelerate the growth of the world. It allows a cross-integration of content, new development pipelines, new creation ecosystems, new forms of outreach and promotion, and new possibilities for art, commerce and discovery.
But my personal belief is that this potential will be unrealized because there is no road map, there is no robust discussion of how this fits into a broader vision, there is no sense that the Lab is looking outside its own walls or outside the idea that technology alone builds a business.
I have no idea whether they’re consulting with people or thinking through the economic models other than in their own self-interest of what to charge. I have no idea whether they have plans to do outreach to external development communities. I have no sense of whether they’re planning tutorials, in-world forums, discussion sessions, surveys, information packages, advertising, promotion, education, or press releases.
I have no sense of whether they’ve discussed the cultural implications of mesh or what it might mean to be able to co-locate content both in-world and on other platforms. I have no idea whether they’ve thought about things like creating a 3D Web site Marketplace, or whether they’ve discussed with the open source community the possibility of coding editable mesh, or whether Philip was serious about a long-term plan to make mesh paintable.
All I have this week is a video posted on the main Second Life channel that says “Deal with It” which leads me to believe that there is a strain, at least, which purports that mesh is just a widget, that this is just a platform and not a world.
I have lots of other tools I use, things that are simply software. There are lots of other places I can go if I don’t want to be under the governance of someone else, and there are times ahead when there won’t be ‘worlds’ at all, there will just be technologies.
But for now, this is still a world, and is still a community, and it still has an economy which is often arbitrarily managed by an entity we do not control, and for now I’ll “deal with it”, I suppose, and continue to plod along, repackaging press releases and creating controversy.
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Mal Burns and Dusan Writer, Doubledown Tandino. Doubledown Tandino said: via @DusanWriter Mesh Redux: Second Life Next http://bit.ly/bgc2LT [...]
Well, most of us know why, how, and what you do, and are very appreciative of your writings. There will always be a minority who don’t ‘get it’… you know, surely from your readership figures that those that choose to misunderstand are in the tiny minority.
Keep up the good work… with no formal community discussion point it is down to the blogs to discuss the things that need to be aired.
I had not read your original point or seen that ridiculous video previously, but I must say that it seems you were completely in the right to criticise it, and the decision of the Lab to publicise it (notably worse than somebody making rude and dismissive machinima in itself). Speaking as an uncreative, unconstructive, neophobic sort here, of course.
On your latter point, though: I am something of a mesh-sceptic for various reasons (changing the building learning curve drastically, not scriptable etc), but all of these concerns I think _could_ be addressed, with the result of a highly useful and beneficial tool. None of them are fatal. Unfortunately I too suspect that it will be another “failed or incomplete technology introduction” and that crucial parts will just not happen; I don’t even know whether the original writers of the system are still employed, and I might suspect not. I still smart from Windlight to be honest – such a potentially superb addition, relegated to being simply of use for photographers and machiniminamists – at least not actively damaging I suppose.
months ago , the sl bitchy little girl blogersphere wanted to name you to the LL board;)- i suggested of all the SL metabloggers of “note” youd be the best choice..but that I felt bad voting for you to meet the devil. and the risk to become them.;)
If virtulity is ALLOWED to become a WORLD, then HELL itlle be. then again what has hell always been but virtualities greatest accomplishment.
Its not about mesh… its about the mess that happens when the desire for the fantasy outweighs the desire for reality. warts and all.
from green mists to press releases… at least its REAL and messy now for you it seems… and soon, hopefully for others as well.
only after enough folk are shocked and awed by the way the medium works..will they want to do somethign about it… and then of course maybe realize that the “medium” itself is whats making that so hard.
I fianlly saw Zuckerberg on Oprah heralded with “superman” as saving our eductional system– well at least in NJ..;)
Proks always been right– her they come.. and now with Oprah in the lead, they will help bring the past reality to virtuality online… too bad that reality is TV.;)
back to your show:) keep it on the air:) i always love public access cable:)
c3
I’ve been following the gradually-accumulating documentation about mesh at http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh
Since the mesh NDA was lifted, LL has posted the transcripts of Nyx Linden’s office hours (at the above link), and those shed a lot of light on what’s coming (and not coming).
“and those shed a lot of light on what’s coming (and not coming).”
it like the “light shown” at los alamos… meta new my ass.
i saw nothing but screen caps of how to push 4 pieces of rock together…
nothing iluminating here… just more of the same, see you after the green mists occur…
hulk cube3
Let me start off by saying that I have always respected your opinion and I cannot agree with Draxtor’s assessment of you. I think you have done some of the most compelling and amazing projects in the virtual space (with AVESS topping the list) that quite frankly, I’m a bit jealous of and would have loved to have my team involved in.
While the three of us (Draxtor, Reed, and myself) may have all played some part in the “Deal With It” machinima (as it’s been tagged), we obviously have different and differing opinions on the topic. I can’t speak to their opinions (and I won’t try), but my *guess* is that their responses were based more on their hurt feelings then their actual opinions.
As for myself, I think you got me wrong. You said in your comments:
“1. It implies that anyone who works with prims is a dolt (Reed playing the hopeless builder with his clunky blocks)
and 2. it implies that if you don’t “get it” you SHOULD or, at least, get over it
I GET that it’s satire. But what is the satire OF? And I’d propose that what you’re satirizing are critics of mesh, an audience that you were doing an excellent job of converting anyways by creating thoughtful and compelling media that was explanatory, calm and useful.”
This does not represent my thoughts on the machinima.
FOR ME, the satire was not of the critics of mesh, but of prims. I was in no way trying to imply that any one who works with prims “is a dolt.” I was just trying to express/show that prims are actually what their name implies.. primitive. To me, Reed was not simply playing the role of dolting and hopeless; having worked with him for many years, I can honestly tell you, that when he is forced to build with in-world tools (and sometimes even with sculpted prims), it sounds pretty much like the opening of that machinima.
Prims can be clunky, and I think anyone who has ever tried to build anything complex with them would have to agree. That doesn’t mean anyone who chooses to work with them is an idiot. It just means that now there is a more efficient way, and while we understand that right now mesh is “the dark side” for many users, I think if you try it, you might like it. I don’t believe it’s as scary as it seems.
That’s ALL I was trying to show.
As I said yesterday “First make them laugh, then make them think.”
And again, I apologize to anyone who perceived it differently and felt attacked. This was not my intention at all.
I love what I do, and EVERYTHING I do is dedicated to helping people, whether it is businesses, organizations, or individuals. While creating rich and quality content of value is very high on the the list of goals I have set forth for my team and my company, the number one goal on that list is to out care everyone else.
While the response to this machinima was overwhelming positive, the fact that it’s message was open to interpretation, and that you had to ask me, “So in what way does this video build on the work you’ve done to date?” means that I failed in my above stated goals. It has caused to me to reassess my efforts and the value of those efforts and for that I am grateful.
I appreciate you refocusing your complaints and I understand your concerns because I had the same concerns. In fact, it’s why I got involved in the mesh beta program despite the fact that I wouldn’t normally identify myself as a builder or modeler. I felt someone needed to challenge them on these topics, and not just things like the type of file needed to export/import meshes. I’ve been fighting for these very things and I think it’s extremely important that as a community we have these discussions now (versus later). I truly believe (from my experiences in the mesh beta program for the last year) that Linden Lab wants to hear the community’s concerns and requests in regards to mesh and that it is their goal to implement it properly.
I will continue my now refocused efforts and I look forward to more discussions about mesh imports.
Beautifully put, Gianna. Thank you. It’s the sort of generosity I’ve come to know and admire in you.
I can’t understand why you are grovelling now to Draxtor and company. It’s unnecessary, you were right, they were tone deaf — and they have grown worse and worse in this tone deafness as I keep seeing more and more from Draxtor (since he immigrated to the United States, he’s become even more of an American basher), and not a single Facebook post of his goes by these days without me being disgusted.
What I really, really HATE about this smug and arrogant gang is this notion that if someone objects to mesh, criticizes it, or shows “anxiety,” *they have no good reason to*.
“instead of whining, giving in to fears and/or choosing the “bashing” response” — says Draxtor — as if criticism about the way this is being done or even *that* it is being done has no validity, but only ignorant FUD as a reason.
Again, I think I can handily argue as I did in the voluminous comments thread under the Linden’s latest blog about this that the real FUD and backwardness and lack of revolutionary vision comes from the people who think the 3-D crap from the rest of the Internet, made by people in silos alone on their expensive machines or buggy OS knockoffs is the “revolution”. The revolution is when that Philip originally made with prims that anyone could rez and anyone could edit.
The nastiness on parade in that blog thread with all the knowier-than-thous and smug assholes telling others to go learn Blender — it’s awful to watch.
You increasingly realize that the world of the creator-fascist is not one you want to live in.
“The revolution is when that Philip originally made with prims that anyone could rez and anyone could edit.”
no . this existed before SL.
the revolution was when 3d media (not a image or images of it) was offered within a “medium” of its own as having VALUE. DRM for those to dumb to play along.;)
“Valuation” of 3d datasets TM- … was the revolution that wil decide the “freedom” of people “immerssed in virtuality”
so far , beyond all the rhetoric, were all still the Negroes and Daughters of Phillips flavor of Revolution.;)
Hoping you later immigrants will help give us a Bill of Rights, and a Constitution that dosnt say in gamegods we trust, and that all corporations have inalienable rights.;)
but DEAL WITH IT- aint gonna cut it,:) IMO
And this is why you are clearly the bigger person XD I do not know how to ride backwards on a bike >..< *head desk*
too nice
Prokofy whined:
“The nastiness on parade in that blog thread with all the knowier-than-thous and smug assholes telling others to go learn Blender — it’s awful to watch.”
Yeah, it’s horrible. How dare they learn something.
SL is either going to adapt to technologies like this or it WILL get shoveled under. If you don’t see that, you’re too insularly invested in your cartoon world to see that not only is change constant, it’s more constant in this kind of technology. Don’t pick a virtual world to live in if you want a safe, secure, unchanging environment.
Now, that’s not to say that SL has to change with the technology, but it’s already years behind, and IMO its relevance is fast fading. LL had a chance at one time to make it relevant to the masses, and they failed. Instead, it’s relevant to people who don’t want to move beyond the original prim block building system and would be just as happy if there were no clouds in the virtual sky.
I just realized after saying that, I don’t even know why I care if you people want to be stuck in atari graphics land, if that’s what you want. SL has gone from cutting edge to “get off my lawn!” and “mesh is fascism!” (regardless of the fact that SL is finally making real 3d graphic technology available to content creators). This shit’s been around for years, folks. It’s about TIME it came to SL.
You (the Prokofys of the world) deserve the irrelevant and increasingly isolated virtual world you so badly want. Enjoy it. No one else will be joining you that isn’t already emotionally invested in some bizarre fashion or other.
Cube – I still say that C/M/T was revolutionary. Unfortunately, what we’ll probably end up with are Facebook coins or something, all tied back to identity and parsable data sets of another kind.
Prok – hmmm, it didn’t feel like grovelling to me. It felt like clarifying the wider context of my thinking. I really have very little capacity for dealing with the more personal attacks – I guess it’s a flaw of some sort, but I just can’t take those things head-on somehow and always end up on an endless tangent instead.
ColeMarie – I don’t know how to ride a bike backwards either but, um, why would you want to?
“You take issue with “deal with it”? In my book this is a proactive term, implying that we better get out there and learn and debate and acquire knowledge, be open minded, instead of whining, giving in to fears and/or choosing the “bashing” response [yes, there is fight or flight, but I like to add "bashing" to that, please?]“
In my book, “deal with it” isn’t a proactive stance, its a “screw you” stance. It says to everyone “We are doing this, we don’t care what you think, get over it.” It doesn’t say to me “This is happening, you need to prepare yourself.” It says “I couldn’t possibly care any less how you feel about it.”
I have to say though, I am not terribly surprised that the Lab chose this video to represent mesh, because it represents the underlying attitude we always get. Lip service paid to what the community wants or needs, while making unilateral and not often well thought out decisions.
This seems to be the case in many companies lately. Why bother to think of any greater implications? When the extent of the planning process is “Lets make mesh work”. What other thinking is needed, right?
The Lab seems to have fallen victim to a common malady, confusing “idea” with “plan”
well, then its’s all just “coin of the realm” — US revolution reversed. and although i know you toy and they toy with youre Knighthood, youll end with the power of the past’s negro or woman. Todays “internet” 2.0 pundits want 6 billion bitchy teen girlz as our future humans….
seems so anathema to the concept of the “singularity” and thus… the psychosis of the geek culture becomes clear.
speaking of our cultural psychosis..Oprah.
Did anyone else think that Zuckenbergs empty geek house – void of any items of ID (not even one Star Wars collectable or poster shown– or even a faux breyer chair) other than his “asian girlfriend” show a true disconnect with his 300 million “coin holders” to be?
Oprah better get Nate in their soon to help…although Im not sure he doesnt have a closet full of star wars figures bulging at the door in the back room.
No radar — and screw you.
It’s not about dissing people who want to learn something WHATSOEVER.
It’s about those people who embrace mesh or are willing to learn Blender or Maya dissing OTHER PEOPLE and telling them they are dolts and anxious neurotic freaks. THAT is the problem. And THAT is the problem that Dusan captured in his previous post so neatly — with the DEAL WITH IT — and it’s so unfortunate he’s unravelling this now.
Draxtor, as a non-native speaker of English from Germany, can be forgiven for not understanding the nasty, schoolmarmy, schoolyard bullying tone of DEAL WITH IT. But the others involved cannot.
It’s unacceptable, and I’m really unhappy to see Dusan first acknowledge that this video and this spirit of oneupmanship and smug superiority
The only cold comfort in this is that these people so smugly bringing in Mesh are going to increasing only have *each other* to sell it to and show it off to.
As Dusan has pointed out, these new programs, whether Display Names or Viewer 2 Reset or Mesh, don’t seem to be terribly concerned with whether SIGN-UPS will increase.
And Dusan, you *are* grovelling, and I don’t care if you view that as a personal attack, it has to be said. You are! My God, you had no call to double back on your essential truths. You could say you welcomed getting further nuances or details but you had NOTHING to apologize for. THEY DO.
FEAR MY WRATH! I AM THE CREATOR FASCIST! WITH MY IMPROVED COMPUTER GRAPHICS IN SECOND LIFE, I SHALL ENSLAVE ALL LITTLE CREATORS TO BE DEPENDENT ON ME! PLEASE IGNORE THE FACT THAT THE #1 NEGATIVE REACTION TO SECOND LIFE IS, AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN, THAT THE GRAPHICS SUCK! THE DECISION TO ADD MESH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS, AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH EMPOWERING ME! BWAHAHAHAHAAH
truce, Dusan, I did overreact…you HAVE indeed done a HELL of a LOT of fantastic work in this space. Sending you a download coupon for “Love Is All Around Us”…http://soundcloud.com/draxtor/love-is-all-around
I copy this from the “deal with it” page and hope it will give you some serious thoughts on the value of anything being imprted the way LL obviously favors it. It is the painful truth.
Deal with it.
I am surprised on the ovverall agreement on “Mesh will improve visuals in SL”.
Photoshop (3Ds) is out there for centuries. GIMP (Blender) is a pretty powerful free tool.
90 percent of all textures in SL are either ripped from somewhere, stolen by copybots or illegally replicated in any possible way (there are many in SL) or… yes plain ugly, not usable by format alone and whatever.
Poser and Maya are extremely powerful animation tools, on a highly professional level, and there are several powerful free tools out there. How come tha 90 percent of all running animations in SL are robotic, crappy, sluggish, ripped, illegally replicated, trash. How come?
There are hundreds of free sound editors out there. How come that all i hear is a “WOHHHOOOHOOOO..here comes the wolf” or some birds chirping? Ten seconds aren#t that bad at all to fill them with something senseful.
Sculpts are out there for while. How caom that at least 9o percent of them do not even resist LOD, are extremely bad shaped, overdone crap?
Yes, there are a few people on this planet who actually create excellent animations, excellent textures, excellent sounds, gorgeous sculpties. A few. A very, very few. And i doubt that more than 10 percent of them can make some REAL money with their SL activities at all.
Mesh will go exactly the same way. SL will be flooded by plain trash which will be replicated, ripped, stolen and ripped again.Badly done crap which will mess up an already messed up environment in the same way as any other imported trash does mess it up right now. And a very few people will contribute something really, really great, which will get buried under piles of useless, ininspirational, offending and totally illegal trash.
It´s not the tool, it´s the people using the tools. Maya, Photoshop, Poser, GIMP, whatever, are not bad tools or not capable.
Sl is the most hostile environment for any kind of serious content creation, for a number of valid and logical reasons. And MEsh imports will definately NOT change this. As proven impressively by the past.
And this brainless “video” reflects exactly what LL thinks of any kind of serious content creation. Thinks about SL and thinks about their customers.
“Deal with this shit”.
One day they´ll wake up and, yeah. Someone has dealt with THEM.
The video was insensitive and abrasive, almost as if it were designed to put backs up.
However, I do understand the sentiment behind it. I understand that people are worried and anxious about what mesh may mean for them, and may feel threatened by it.
The only constant is change. Change is inevitable. That is true in all aspects of our lives. Change is also the greatest source of stress. I think the only way to really relieve some of this anxiety and stress is for the Lindens to get us into open beta as fast as possible so we can all experiment with it and share information and tips to help each other along.
I am constantly amazed at how helpful many SL creators are. You can find all kinds of how to tutorials out there on the web and You Tube about how to make SL clothing, how to use various programs to make sculpties, and even script libraries to share scripts freely. There are groups in world where you can ask questions about textures, building, and scripting, and SL people respond and help.
I want people into open beta so we can all learn together and that those amazing people who make great tutorials can help and lead the rest of us along! I owe http://www.shiny-life.com/, a blog by Vlad Bjornsen, for providing video tutorials on ZBrush for helping me to learn ZBrush. Gaia at http://blog.machinimatrix.org/ already has a preliminary how to make mesh with Blender video up on her website.
My point is we are good at helping each other, even if we do compete with each other in our SL businesses. I love that about SL. Open beta will get that rolling and much of the anxiety about mesh will decrease once that begins.
I think that the maker of the video was annoyed with some people who were ranting againts mesh in forums and channels where mesh was being discussed and information shared for those keenly interested in it. It is a lot to wade through, and the discussion was often derailed. I think the video expresses that frustration, and I understand that as well.
I would not go into a scripting forum if I could not script and rant about how it gives those who can script and professional programmers an unfair advantage, demanding that LL remove scripting to even the playing field and make it all fair, even if it would diminish the SL experience. If I did do that, I would expect the scripters to be annoyed with me and encourage me to leave that forum.
Mesh is going to happen. We do have to deal with it, and some will embrace it and fly.
Not everyone will have the artistic ability to make good mesh, even if they can learn the programs, this is true. We are not created equal. Find what you can do and do it well.
All skills are equally valuable. There are shortages in SL of some skills. Two come to mind and I keep watching for people with these skills. Most SL content creators work alone, and there are few who can do it all: Sculpts, mesh, textures, animation, scripting, and marketing. The few who can are the big winners in SL.
We need entrepreneurs, the well organized, the project managers, the skilled marketers.
An example of such an entrepreneur is Lilybeth Filth of Textures’R'Us. She makes textures, and has grouped together about 70 texture makers, selling in a well designed store that is perhaps the largest texture provider in SL. She watches out for copyright infringement for all her artists. She developed a website to sell their textures, and now is negotiating with a professional 3D studio for texture contracts for her artists outside of SL. We need more of her!!!
I repeat, find what you do well and do it!
updated version of the vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGuRL6RQvXc ahhhh what fun
Um, Vivienne? I don’t mind worshipping God, the creator of our real planet, because of His demonstrable and unparalled creativity and excellence.
But re: “Yes, there are a few people on this planet who actually create excellent animations, excellent textures, excellent sounds, gorgeous sculpties. A few. A very, very few. And i doubt that more than 10 percent of them can make some REAL money with their SL activities at all.”
– I won’t be worshipping you lot. You can take Second Life, and shove it.
Sorry, prokofy, don´t get me wrong. SL can only work as SL because of being messed up as it is. And that´s the original problem. Do i prefer it messed up (as it undoubtedly is) or not? If not, i´d most probably habe to kill it.
Mesh imports will not change anything regarding mainstream gaming visual quality, simply because you cannot stop a bunch of gone mad amateurs playing the 3D creator and wannabe capitalist, which is as good as it is bad.
I personally like trash. It´s the spice of SL.
mesh import is inevitable if Second Life wants to be progressive. of course it could carve out a niche and not adopt mesh. just like Habbo Hotel has stayed true to being an isometric world
i have been doing mesh since 2003 (Blender 3D) and to stay competitive and attract new growth SL needs mesh. regardless of what it does to the in-world economy. and since when do $#@!*s like Prok think that any impacts on in-world economy drive decisions at the lab? if that was the case, they would not have banned gambling or segregated adult content
Linden Lab could give a flip about the peanuts that someone like Prok, or Prok’s flawed ideology on SL economics, generates. they don’t care about serious clients like IBM and the millions they poured in, so they are certainly not going to care about people not willing to learn new (and free) tools
LL needs mesh to create a world that is different than it has now. why? because the current one is not doing so hot and they must move forward or they will perish
yes, some people will be pushed out but to think this has any importance to LL is to be egotistical
LL will do what it needs to and despite what any of us think, they have people trying to chart a successful course. if any of us knew better, then we would have a world bigger than LL does
so many backseat drivers and Monday morning quarterbacks out there . . .
Dusan, i always like your very well thought out and articulate discussions, and you add to the conversation, not take away from it. from someone that used to love SL dearly, i am glad to see someone like you who still cares and offers valuable insight
Ener, you’re such a grasping little social climber, loving to step on people on your way up, it’s REAAALY not attractive.
I don’t critique Linden Lab because I imagine I will “get somewhere” with my analysis or they will “listen to me,” so therefore I’m not a “loser” as you grandly and condescendingly indicate with a remarks like “and since when do $#@!*s like Prok think that any impacts on in-world economy drive decisions at the lab?” or “Linden Lab could give a flip about the peanuts that someone like Prok, or Prok’s flawed ideology on SL economics, generates”
How preposterous, dismissing legitimate criticism in a debate based on the idea that it “can’t possibly influence the lab” — and more revolting — making common cause with this powerful “lab” merely to gloat and lord it over other people. Ugh! Do you realize how you LOOK???
It’s not about them “caring,” it’s about analyzing what is happening. You, like others, have ascribed, in a truly primitive way, mythical qualities to Mesh. Mesh is going to make laggy and uncool SL become “progressive” again. Mesh is dong to “attract new growth”. Mesh is going to make you rich, thin, and lag-free. The concoctions you dream up for what Mesh will do are just hilarious.
There’s no reason to believe that any outside creators will rush into SL, which has gotten a bad knock in the tech world and the wider world. Rather, the same people who went from prims to sculpties will go to mesh and drag in ugly crap from various sites, just like people now swipe textures from every site under the sun.
But it will have too many vertices or prims or be too fugly to fit in the world, and will not be a hit except where there are very good people deploying it. And because customers can’t resize it, it will be annoying.
One poster on the Commerce forums has pointed out something hugely obvious — landscaping. Sculpties could make it big because they turned the hard edges of the world into soft curves like snow drifts or stones. This could work on people’s homesteads or islands because they could RESIZE it and put it out as they liked, to fit their other landscaping or house. Now, they can’t do that, and will have to buy something, then ask the maker to size it to some specs. Most people HATE trying to figure out the size of something inworld. They HATE HATE HATE trying to put down boards or eyeball the grid and make mathematical calculations. They simply won’t go back to the creator and say, oh, I need not 40 x 40 but 37 by 37. They need to be able to adjust themselves, and change when they feel like that. Any notion that says the creator will just “pope it back in blender and make it for the customer” is forgetting that this is too many steps and a chore, and maybe a $10 fee. What *is* the upload fee going to be for bringing in Mesh, BTW???
And hair is exactly the same — all hair has to be resized — how??? And the mesh hair looks like Medusa anyway.
Mesh is a world that is going to look like Shrek. Yecth!
This sort of statement of yours is just outright magical thinking:
“LL needs mesh to create a world that is different than it has now. why? because the current one is not doing so hot and they must move forward or they will perish”
Oh, baloney.
Mesh, with all its variables and unknowns, and its backwards trajection in terms of usability and customization for the CUSTOMER and the hardships for the creator mean that it isn’t just some get-rich-quick scheme, some magic fix.
And the things wrong with SL are so myriad, that I can’t imagine that Mesh, some mere version of tech, is going to fix them.
>LL will do what it needs to and despite what any of us think, they have people trying to chart a successful course. if any of us knew better, then we would have a world bigger than LL does
We do. We ARE the world, damn it.
Prokofy, mesh under 10 x 10 x 10 can be resized. It is only with larger meshes that resizing is a problem. Hair will be resizable. Buildings, probably not (unless LL fixes that issue). You should get your facts straight.
Prokofy, you launch personal attacks, such as calling Ener a “grasping little social climber” or telling me that I am “disgusting” because you don’t like my point of view. That is not “legitimate criticism in a debate.” If you want to present a reasoned argument or opinion on a mature or academic level, you cannot do that using school yard name calling, and you must learn to respect the opinions of others and their right to express them.
I have to question your motivation for ranting here. Your rants interfere with discussion of mesh among those interested in mesh.
What is your point and how do you expect to be responded to? Is it all just a cry of “look at me, look at me!” to get attention?
A correction: Ordinary mesh under 10 x 10 x 10 will be resizable. Weighted mesh hair designed to move with the head, neck, and shoulders won’t be resizable. If the hair is not weighted, not designed to move with the avatar, it will look like sculpted hair, but it will be fewer prims. We will have to get in there to play with things to find good combinations of mesh, weighted mesh, flex prims, and sculpties to get the effects we want.
“90 percent of all textures in SL are either ripped from somewhere, stolen by copybots or illegally replicated in any possible way (there are many in SL) or… yes plain ugly, not usable by format alone and whatever.”
90 percent of statistics are pulled out of someone’s posterior. Admittedly, the quoted one is unfalsifiable, because of the subjectivity of ugliness. I seriously doubt that the person quoted has made any attempt to determine what percentage of SL textures are stolen.
Vivienne,
Um, I personally attack people, when they attack me for my views. That’s how I roll. And you are a bitch.
Your behaviour on the forums is revolting.
Your grasping, greedy behaviour on this issue and sucking up to the Lindens, your stepping on your fellow residents — it’s hideous to behold. Honestly, I haven’t seen anything this awful in Second Life in a long time!
It’s hardly a rant to cite chapter and verse about what is not democratic, not participatory, not flexible and not accessible about Mesh — it’s the truth, and because it’s unflattering to your fetish, you can’t bear it.
Few people would landscape with a…10 x 10 prim, Vivienne, stop it.
As for conforming to your notion of the niceties of how this debate should go,I have absolutely no intention of doing so. You and your peers have made it ugly and nasty by your disgraceful smug superiority on the forums, and celebration of videos like this awful one Dusan originally called out properly. Pushing back against ugly, arrogant behaviour in a society isn’t denying the uglies their freedom of expression; it’s making sure they don’t suck all the oxygen out of the room.
I will be quite happy to see the next wave of technology come along (Sims Transmogrifier lol?) that will leave you all flat on your ass. People like you who missed the empathy stage of development only understand realities when it is shoved in your face. I hope it will be. I’m left with that rather inhumane wish precisely because of the awfulness of what you are.
@ Prokofy
That’s fine. At least you are honest. However, stop claiming to be making reasonable and logical arguments in a “debate.” You are just a troll, trying to be inflammatory, provoke people, and derail any intelligent conversation between others. As such I think you should be banned by moderators of serious discussion.
I think you want and need attention, and I think you flatter yourself that you are well known and regarded as a voice of reason and morality.
You are well known, but you are not respected. People roll their eyes at the mention of your name. You have made yourself a joke.
“I seriously doubt that the person quoted has made any attempt to determine what percentage of SL textures are stolen.”
Thank god that NO ONE ever did try this.
I can’t wait for mesh.
I think all the whines from the creators are overdone.
Why?
Because mesh won’t destroy anything. In an abstract way they are a type of sculptie.
There are things sculpties can do well and things that only flexi-prims can do well.
It will be VERY hard to make flexi-meshes for e.g. hair but very easy to make a mesh hair base with multiple flexiprims in exactly the same way that hair today is made with multiple sculpties plus flexiprims.
I reckon that for hair at least we’re going to see greatly reduced lag.
Also the variations in the shapes of avatars.
I can’t wait.
when i first started using SL, I couldnt understand why it didnt have a mesh upload option, and having to use sculptmaps seriously limits what i can use to create sculpts. I make a lot of sculptmaps – but i would much rather be able to upload a proper mesh, and as my prefered application has collada export, this suits me fine. used properly, sculpts are less laggy than regular prims, and meshes will have the potential to be even less laggy. SL does not handle textures well, which has been the problem with sculptmaps.