Allowing mesh imports into Second Life is on-strategy for Linden Lab and part of their broader ‘Fast, Easy, Fun’ mantra, according to Jack Linden with whom I appeared on last night’s Designing Worlds. (Video after the break).
I actually thought it was a good discussion, although I’m not sure I personally made a lot of sense, but that’s par for the course. It was only in the latter minutes of the show that Jack said something which felt like something more than ‘tech talk’.
One of the things that the Lab does astonishingly poorly is putting platform changes into a broader context. It’s one thing to understand the technicalities of LOD or whatever, and it’s another to understand how something like mesh imports fits into whatever broader strategy the Lab is pursuing. (Others have argued that the Lab doesn’t HAVE a strategy, something with which I disagree).
Jack got as close to I’ve heard from the Lab to something that aligns a technical change (mesh import) with a broader sense of where the Lab sees things heading (jump to the 50:00 mark).
“We understand how we want it to change both the in-world building behavior and quality of content….defining quality is incredibly difficult. In terms of our business goals, we have goals on the Marketplace and how we see people adopting things like mesh. We also have overall goals around everything from new user acquisition to retention to all the things you’d expect us to care about deeply.
So mesh is part of a much broader strategy around addressing the basics that we know have to be addressed. Philip’s talked about this, we talked about it at SLCC. Fast/Easy/Fun is very much at the heart of many of the projects that we have on our plate now. We recognize that there are core pieces of the Second Life experience that are not quite good enough and we have to resolve those things.
Mesh takes content to the next level. It takes us up to the point where there will be scenes created with mesh that are almost equivalent to anything you’ll see in other platforms. It does that in a way which I believe will be simple enough that it will still be within the reach of most people who really want to do that stuff.”
You Are Not a Creator
But Jack did something else, which was in response to my comment that mesh will shift creation outside of Second Life itself to external applications and programs. My argument is that one of the deep values of Second Life is that it’s a shared collaborative space in which we can create.
Mesh will have a cultural change in that the creation of content will not need to happen in-world.
Now, I’m not proclaiming that this is the end of the world – simply making the observation that there is a chance that people will stop making things in the world and make things instead to be brought into the world.
Without arguing whether this has meaning, Jack’s response echoed what Philip said to my after SLCC, and it looks like it’s going to be the standard messaging, and it goes something like this:
- People are already creating content externally using things like Photoshop for textures or creating animations outside of SL.
- So, mesh is no different really – we already have content created externally, so this doesn’t represent a fundamental shift.
- Besides which, there are actually very few content creators compared to content consumers.
I can’t emphasize enough how standard this language has become at the Lab.
In their view, there are the people who make stuff and sell it (a few hundred of whom make an OK living at it) and then there’s everyone else. And the ‘everyone else’ is where the bread is truly buttered.
I’ve come to believe that this represents a fundamental change in philosophy and strategy, or at the very least a change of attitude. Philip was very clear about this with me at SLCC: “Your World, Your Imagination” as a tag-line doesn’t make sense, he said – because most users don’t actually create the world, they’re consumers of content.
Hearing this echoed nearly word-for-word in what Jack said verifies that it’s now the conventional wisdom at the Lab: the goal is to attract content consumers and to recognize that yes, they might move some prims around to decorate their beach houses, but to call that content creation is erroneous.
I’m not entirely sure what the implications of this might be, other than the fact that it brings further clarity to “Fast/Easy/Fun” – the goal isn’t to get a new user to rez a prim, the goal is to allow them to “consume” the content of a more select or advanced group of users who make ‘stuff’.
Mesh Wednesday
Mesh hits the beta grid tomorrow. In announcing how it will work, the Lab will also announce an increase to the standard scalable prim size, putting an end to the “mega”.
Keep an eye on the Second Life blogs for more information. In the meantime, Jack gives some insight into how it’s being handled and what it will mean, and I throw in my own two cents, primarily I think so that there’s someone with a Canadian accent on the show:
What exactly did Jack say? The bit “which was in response to my comment that mesh will shift creation outside of Second Life itself to external applications and programs.” Is that in the post and I just overlooked it?
Check out 39:00 +, in particular 40:47 or so… – “We have to remember that only a relatively small number of people actually create content compared to the large number of people who consumer content – just sort of buy it and move it around.”
Almost the exact wording I heard from Philip.
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Dusan Writer and Doubledown Tandino, WytchwhisperSadofsky. WytchwhisperSadofsky said: RT @Dusanwriter: Posted Mesh Is On Strategy for Linden Lab, But You Are Not a Creator: Allowing mesh imports into Second Life is on… http://bit.ly/8Z7DRx [...]
Nice talk and observations, Dusan. Enjoyed a lot of the points Jack touched on as well in the talk.
less anyone forget, that “photoshop” 2d images.. have already been devalued by LL with the screenshot and machinima policies….
one that rewards only LL for whatever and who evers 2d images get used /imported ,and exported for usage in/out the sl machines grind.. er grid…
the same will happen to 3d content as well, all good for the gatekeeper, all crap for the cattle.
back to your show
[...] Prims size limit from 10 to 64 meters!! Dusan Writer’s Metaverse Mesh Is On Strategy for Linden Lab, But You Are Not a Creator The video at the end of the page, minute [...]
I usually agree with you, but in this case, I can’t climb on board. Maybe I’m a bit different because the core of my products, animations, have to be made offline. Animation alone, unless it’s a dance, is not a finished product. I still have much work inworld to package all the animations into a system that is usable. In many cases, mesh will be the same way. Let’s imagine a mesh dragon avatar, beautifully textured. Well, that is still not a completely finished product. The consumer still needs to find other things, like an AO to match it or wings with scripts in them to flap when you fly. Let’s imagine a house. Well, the house still needs furniture, curtains, and might even need some other structural changes, like stairs or doors. It is my opinion that consumers of content come to SL because everything is customizable. Even if you buy a finished product or a full AO, they can still customize it in unlimited amounts of ways and all of this takes place inworld. This is exactly why I try not to make things no mod. SL is just the place where it all comes together. Take Torley as an example, he likes watermelons colors, and he tries to make everything those colors when possible. You can’t do that in any other world as easily as you can in SL. Wow could make 100 options for every part of their avatars, but the player will still not feel totally like it is uniquely them. I also agree with Jack that mesh will not make prims obsolete, as sculpties did not make prims obsolete. Tho, I do think mesh will eventually make sculpties obsolete. I been playing with mesh alot lately getting ready for the beta, but there are many times when I consider making something, that i just think, “Heck, I can make that with 4 prims and it will look almost as good.”
@c3
If the possibility of screenshotting and video capture devalues texture work, then isn’t web and game design long since dead? Along with every other form of media.
@Medhue
Excellent point at the end there. Possibility is one thing, effort is a whole ‘nother. In no area of productivity in regards to anything has the mere possibility of the latest and greatest killed off simply what takes less effort. We’re still going to see prim building.
And I have a question for you, Dusan. Do you have any insight on any new or changed LSL functions or behaviors being introduced to support meshes?
Medhue -
I generally agree with you as I said on the show. I’ve been advocating for mesh for 3 years and am thrilled its arrived. I’m simply curious, more broadly, about the impact on culture and the economy – discussion points that Jack assured us would be part of the conversation and which I think are just as important as the benefits of mesh.
I watched the show and thought it was a good job by all. I remember the part where Jack was asked about the size limits for mesh and he said 64 meters. I thought he was referring to the mesh, not to increasing the prim size. Is this 64 meters going to apply to both mesh and prim? That would be awesome. I can do some tweaking on my products and lower the prim count.
I guess I did not address some of the issues you brought up. I totally think that Jack is wrong about who is making content or at least how LL views it. There are literally hundreds and hundreds of niche markets out there. No, those markets are not large enough to allow some1 to live off those profits but still large enough to draw creators. Tho, I do not generally make full perm for the secondary market, I’m asked daily if I’ll sell this or that animation full perm. And I do mean daily. The full perm market itself, at least for animation, is large enough for a number of animators to make decent money and I will definitely add more full perm stuff to the market. This market indicates to me that there is an extremely large amount of people that make things either for marketing purposes or they enjoy making things but do not have the tech ability to make them from scratch. In the clothing market, it does not seem to me that very many designers even learned to make sculpties, as they could buy all the parts already made. Plus, I think, the vast majority of creators only aspire to make enough to pay for sims and/or for spending money.
What I have a big problem with is all this close beta and secrecy stuff. LL is not Ubisoft. SL has a full range economy, which needs full transparency for merchants to be able to make proper decisions. LL’s closed beta crap, usually amounts to very little benefit and seems to me to be a step that should be eliminated completely, besides the fact that it smells of favortism. Secrecy does not help LL or create some kind of marketing ploy. It more or less just pisses us off. Not to mention that it makes getting the actual info out even harder, as we see with people asking the same questions over and over that have been answered long ago. This also leaves less time for good questions.
I wish I had followed up on Jack’s remark about the vast majority of people here NOT being content creators. I think that the majority might be selling content, but most people I know will rezz a prim and make something basic – a sign, a poster, maybe even a vase to hold some flowers. Others might develop a very high level of creativity, but not actually move to marketing it. So people can be primarily consumers and yes also creators in a minor way.
Thanks! (It’s going to be awhile before I have 45 minutes of time to watch videos
and that one isn’t playing for me at all for some reason atm.)
I think “We have to remember that only a relatively small number of people actually create content compared to the large number of people who consume content – just sort of buy it and move it around” is a really depressing thing for a Linden to say. (Of course I’m often depressed by what Jack says, sigh.) First, because I doubt it’s based on any actual numbers, and second because I’m sure it wasn’t followed by “… and of course one of our goals is to get the fraction who do create higher, by encouraging everyone to unlock their inner creativity.”
In my experience, a *lot* of people create, just because it’s so easy to get started doing. And I strongly suspect that ease of user content generation is one of the main reasons that SL has done so much better than Blue Mars or I dunno Metaplace.
On meshes specifically, I don’t think it will be a disaster that they are created offworld (although I think it would be great if they could at least be adjusted inworld; vote for VWR-23202!).
But I wince whenever a Linden seems to be downplaying the importance of easy content creation for all users, by saying stuff like this. If the Lindens don’t value the main things that make SL a unique (and therefore viable) place, they’re not going to do the right things…
Sounds obvious to me that Jack meant “content creators that sell”. Its economic that way, and worth mentioning any proportions to consumers which he did.
I don’t think the cultural argument in regards to any charm Second Life has with people being able to collaboratively build with just blocks and basic shapes has anything to do with that.
There’s a clear separation if you ask me, not unlike the amount of people that know HTML vs. the amount of people who work as web developers. Or the amount of people that know photoshop vs. who are designers. It doesn’t hurt to think of ‘content creators’ as a Second Life profession where truly only a minority participate in any economic way, regardless of the basic entry point for hobbyists.
[...] more thoughts on this, take a look at Dusan’s Metaverse post, where he discusses the show in some [...]
I agree with Medhue, that meshes will not eliminate prims. However, it appears that in some cases meshes may be able to reduce a region’s prim count and therefore tier. So, while 4 or more prims may be able to more easily and quickly make an object, the equivalent mesh object may only count as 1 or 2 prims because of more efficient polygon use.
Residents have been learning to use various tools to make sculpties. I think those tools will remain a step in the learning process. But, learning to create meshes in Blender and texture them, while an advanced building skill, is not that hard. With the new interface coming for Blender, it should be even easier, as the big learning curve is the Blender user interface.
I find a large number of my friends are building things. But, I suspect the Lab’s numbers on who does what is more objective than my empirical experience. While there may be a philosophical difference in there somewhere, I don’t see it as changing much of anything, unless you are a content creator.
Meshes will be expensive for small things. So, I expect jewelry makers will see little change. Shoes may prove to be border line. It make well be that sculpty feet and shoes will be more prim cost efficient than Collada mesh feet and shoes. We’ll soon know.
People seem to have this idea that mesh is going to kill the average user building in a sandbox.
It won’t.
There are tons of applications where prims will still be used. One particular case is flexi-hair or flexi-skirts, which are not at all easy to do in mesh.
In any case, someone soon will pick up on my killer idea which is a prim->mesh converter. I.e. the regular jane will build her item out of prims and then run a script to convert it to mesh. That’s FAR easier to do than the reverse of bringing mesh into SL and converting it to prims (which will of course, now be unnecessary).
yes ezra, all forms of media, created for human purposes and society..are soon. dead.
that IS the goal of the singularist and his love machine.
my machine will give me all i need.;)
ezra, ask the same question if you need too in 45 years;)
@Nalates
Actually, with meshes being able to move with the body, and the fact that alot of people wear boots, shoe creators will be able to make boots that are 1 mesh and not 2 separate objects, 1 attach to the shins. Plus, many shoes are 30 or more prims, and making a shoe with less polygons should be relatively easy, even with shoelaces. Look for 1 of the first major products to be a full perm mesh shoe and boot set for builders. If some1 else doesn’t sell it, I will, lol.
“The magic of Second Life today… much of it’s magic is what you as residents have created there.”
- Phillip Linden, July 30, 2010
A purely consumer-driven mentality hasn’t really worked out that well for Blue Mars, has it? It didn’t work for There either, or dozens of other companies that fail to anticipate and work for the future rather than attempt to capture markets they should have captured long before. You lag, you lose – more true on the net than anywhere else.
Always a pleasure to read and hear you, Dusan
Blue Mars is in open beta and hasn’t launched.
did metaplace ever “actually” launch? the model is beta or obsolete…. or sold..;)
re: full perm mesh boot set
me! me!
The statement by Jack fits perfectly into their stupid off track so-called “strategy”, which aims on professionalising SL content creation without paying a reasonable price for professional work. But they will fail, as miserably as they failed with viewer 2. As miserably as they failed with any other step towards their obviously declared aim to change SL into a fast and easy 3D consumer paradise where a few pros deliver the content which teases MILLIONS od NEW consumers into renting LL server space. That´s not what SL is about, never was and never will be. Therefore: This isn´t worth any more investment. Linden Lab obviously wants to compete with Sony, but they are only a little, badly managed software garage off track killing their own product. Another nail in the coffin of SL.
I’m sorry, but I can’t help imagining people gathered and talking about how awful it is that meshes are created outside of Second Life. When their conversation is finished, they all get into their cars–which they all built themselves, and run from gasoline that they refined themselves–and drive off to see how their homebuilt chip fab is going; they need to build a new smartphone.
Specialization is good, and not everybody wants to be a creator. We’re not a world of Martha Stewarts.
“We’re not a world of Martha Stewarts.”
Right. We are in the laggy, buggy, custeomer care free and driven by greed world of Mr. Jack Linden´s Linden Lab.
I just went into the mesh beta. You can link together meshes, prims and flexi-prims into a linkset. Meshes will therefore become super-sculpties for some applications.
In other words all the whining and crying about “ZOMG I’m going to go out of business” will mean the e.g. hair creators simply buy a box-o-mesh-hair-bases” and then link some flexi-prims on it, thus cutting down lag from 150+ prims to say 30-40 prims.
Hit the snooze button on the ZOMG! The Economy is so dooooooomed drama.
@Miso Susanowa
The problem with places like BM, There and the many others, is that they all make people jump thru hoops to sell anything. Here in lies the beauty of SL. Even if you did have the knowledge to create for those other worlds, there is still not enough merchants making different kinds of things to compell any1 to go there. In SL, any1 could become a merchant overnight, and now we are getting the tools to do very professional types of works. Even today, SL is still miles ahead of any other platform in many different areas. The incite to actually use BVH files instead of other formats made it possible to bring thousands of professional motion capture animation in SL. BM and other worlds will struggle to get any kind of motion capture into there.
The charm of SL is not about SELLING tons of trash, it´s about the tons of trash.
And selling pixel trash does not make anyone a professional creator.
Yeah, they don’t get it, and I’m tired of trying to explain it.
Hmmm, I will take a guess at what Prokofy meant. I have 20+ years experience in the business world of LA, CA., including the entertainment fields, so I’m certainly no pinko-radical anarcho-commie and no stranger to selling my work and efforts for a reasonable and honest price.
Vivienne’s comment re: “…without paying a reasonable price for professional work” is a legitimate issue.
Medhue: I’m not arguing against stepping up the toolset; if anything, I have argued many times inworld and via blog that Second Life, like Maya, Blender, ProTools, Photoshop, Vegas and the rest are not meant to be “fast, easy and fun,” being professional tools. Such tools and knowledge doesn’t really fit with “fast, easy, fun” and that is where I sense a conflict at Linden Labs.
For a strictly business standpoint, I wouldn’t care at all if I had fancy mesh hair, wikked mesh boots or anything else if my Group Chat didn’t work among my employees, or my carefully upload scale-replica of a blueprint suddenly vanished or lost its textures, or my nicely-planned and co-ordinated satellite offices meeting was so laggy that no one could move, or rez a model, or talk without excruciating lag or be crashed or logged off at a moment’s notice. Or that I couldn’t find anything in Search.
It concerns me that this push for eye candy and fast, easy fun seems myopic and foolishly optimistic given the endemic problems reported on the JIRAs and by residents inworld, on blogs and in the news stretching back several years.
Give me a Group Chat that works; give me 50 groups so I don’t have to shuffle build groups (it works in Inworldz just fine), give me a stable asset server that doesn’t barf repeatedly and destroy, lose or mangle my (yes I worked hours on some) textures and objects, give me stable sim crossings so I can actually sail or walk to another sim (used to be able to…), give me a Ls balance that doesn’t suddenly read 0l (being reported again as a repeat of what many experienced about a year and a half ago)… and MOST OF ALL, give me some kind of reassurance that LL is not going to turn belly-up and trash my hard-worked-for profits and investment in Second Life as a stable platform from which to conduct business.
After that stuff is fixed, I might care a little more about mesh or the rest of the ooo shiney toys.
Patience, Miso — FJ Linden has already announced that IM and group chat will be pushed into XMPP (formerly known as Jabber), the very same technology that powers Google Talk. And you won’t get your 50 groups; FJ will give you 40 instead. The “stable asset server” will be the Amazon cloud, from which all assets will be served (right now, we just get textures).
Realistic sim crossing with vehicles is another story. There are still a few Mono bugs pending from when Babbage was fired, and they might not be that easily fixed by another team member. Then again, as a business user, why do you care if you don’t get ultra-realistic cross-sim sailing — unless, of course, you’re in the business of selling yachts and use SL to show models of them to your buyers. Then again, if you’re showing models, your naval engineers will be happy to know that they can now import their AutoCAD blueprints into SL directly…
“..your naval engineers will be happy to know that they can now import their AutoCAD blueprints into SL directly…”
These?
http://archive3d.net/?category=30
Perhaps the missing “breakthrough function” that will turn Second Life from an Avatar based chatspace with a closed wall new user dependant economic model is the ability for users to collaborate within second life then EXPORT the results in a functional way.