Nice! How come my computer doesn’t display Second Life that good?
On 09.20.07 dusanwriter said:
Hmmm. Well I’m not entirely sure Kabalyero – can’t say it’s my skill as a photographer although having my sim on permanent sunset adds nice lighting. Mind you I also maximized all the settings and then find myself complaining about how slow things can be to rez, but when all my graphics settings are at high and my draw distance is 400 meters I’ve got no one but myself to blame.
They completely ignored OpenSim in all of that for some reason. Go figure.
On 09.22.07 dusanwriter said:
Yeah, go figure! Ignoring OpenSim is kind of like Microsoft trying desperately to ignore Linux.
A more charitable view might be that they’re trying to remain agnostic – if you mention OpenSim it’s like the Fed twitching his nose the wrong way when someone says “raise interest rates”. I’m more inclined to think they’re hoping to drive the standards however and are hoping that OpenSim will come a beggin’ and that early acknowledgement would put too much power in *gasp* the community.
On 09.22.07 dusanwriter said:
Geez didn’t you SEE the billboards I bought all over SL rotating and blinking and sending off strange particles, lagging all the residents for miles around announcing the new blog? I mean you do READ those floating billboards right?
Hmm. I reviewed that book, and I do see your point. It is sort of fluffy in some areas, but it was written for the mainstream… and probably wasn’t meant to be read analytically. As you mentioned, there is a basis in there which is tangible… and the marketing use of such worlds is also tangible. There are some concrete examples as I recall.
Always fun to read what others think of the same books. I got it as it just came out, and some things have changed since then. Perhaps I should reread it when I’m done reading this stack…
On 09.26.07 dusanwriter said:
Thanks Nobody and I’d better append my comments. Being in the marketing biz (shoot me, I know, but really I don’t make any crappy TV commercials or mail out junk) the book made some points that really struck home first from a business perspective: brands try to be about emotions, virtual worlds are emotional, but you can’t just drop brands into these worlds without respecting and understanding the emotional context into which they’re being grafted.
It also struck home because in spite of his rather loose ‘academic’ rationale, I think he was dead on – no matter how hard you try, the emotional reactions you can have in virtual worlds is powerful.
My overall comment wasn’t so much about the book as about a recent attempt to be ‘logical’ about spending time in a virtual space – keep the emotions in check and keep some distance. But all it ended up doing was disturbing social (and emotional) balances around me.
Which really just validates the point of the book – you can view virtual worlds as platforms for branding and business and fail, or you can respect them as environments in which emotions and community need to be respected and nurtured and you’ll probably do pretty well.
Which is a big plus in general for business and ‘consumers’ – virtual worlds demand a sort of honesty and integrity of “gut” and emotion that some corporations may have a tough time with, and as these spaces continue to grow us little avatars will be able to spot the clunkers more easily, because we’ll have the tools to see, touch, create, and feel.
Thanks Nobody!
On 09.26.07 BeauIndigo said:
Hmmm okay well this is the first time I have been able to get a close-up shot of you errr your avatar. So the lady had a camera or something? How does that work? Anyway…interesting avatar. What is that in your mouth? I can’t tell from the photo
Cool stuff. Interesting reading as well. I am caught up now.
You’re right – too many people are speculating on what Google is up to, and few people have a clue. If you get a chance to read ‘Search’ by John Battelle, it is worth it – it does give you some food for thought on what Google actually is.
As far as approaching the metaverse… if it is approached as a collaborative space, I think that might encompass everything else. The trouble is that the space itself is not very collaborative yet. It will get better, I’m sure.
With policy and Second Life – that is exactly what I think. All technologies being equal, the best policies will win.
On 09.27.07 dusanwriter said:
Thanks Nobody – check my latest post on my thoughts on collaborative space, a bit more personal than usual and of course there are business benefits to learning how to use collaborative space.
Yeah, I did read Search, great book.
I think I’ll move on to worrying about some other corporate giant though. Any siggestions?
[...] And for the sake of exploration, the Roadmap looked at four quadrants – all of which will come true and all of which have perils and potential. I commented on those quadrants and my interests in a previous blog. [...]
[...] era la volta di “My world” il progetto Serious Game di promosso da Google. ( vi linko Google/Second Life Merger and a Life of Speculation giusto perchè avanzava dei dubbi…) Mi domandavo: Ma perchè Google dovrebbe andare contro i [...]
[...] unknown wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerptImagine a virtual world built by Microsoft! At the Virtual World Conference, MS commented that by next year, we’d all know more about their interest in virtual worlds:. [Timing is] definitely a concern…But I think we’ve got a good … [...]
[...] Friday, October 12th, 2007 in Metaverse General Tags: browser, client, metaverse, universal Yesterday it was a new client from Electric sheep. [...]
[...] addition to the Electric Sheep viewer being launched to coincide with the CSI/Second Life combo (as previously blogged) here’s a nice looking little viewer in alpha version that allows you to enter the world for [...]
On 10.12.07 Bobby Offcourse said:
and to make things even cooler, I was able to succesfully log onto the grid (via that site) on my iPhone. The button to send messages didn’t pop up so I really couldn’t do much, but considering that the program is in alpha, that is totally possible to be fixed. I’m going to contact them and offer to test it for them.
[...] Business in Virtual Worlds, Second Life Tags: empty world, Second Life, traffic In follow-up to my posting about the tracking traffic on a sim using Jon Brouchard’s new script from his Reflexive [...]
[...] Writer follows up with additional thoughts HERE, and HERE. No Comments so far Leave a comment RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack [...]
[...] in Business in Virtual Worlds, Second Life Tags: legal, movable, Second Life, terms of service i recently wrote about the Movable viewer as a handy way of accessing SL without needing the client – use a Web browser to [...]
[...] Countdown to History? CSI in Second Life. Can 400+ sims be wrong? Wednesday sees a special episode of CSI New York called “Down the Rabbit Hole” in which the pursuit of a killer takes Gary Sinise into Second Life. [...]
On 10.23.07 dusanwriter said:
Search CSI in Map – but the sims were in lockdown, I assume until Wednesday at 10:00!
On 10.24.07 funkyregal said:
Can’t wait to see it, but as I’m in Ireland, I’ll probably have to wait a few years before it gets to me…lol But don’t tell me how it ends, that’ll only ruin the surprise.
On 10.25.07 Rai Fargis said:
it’s a cool idea, but do you really feel comfortable about entering your SL password on a third party website?
On 10.25.07 dusanwriter said:
No, not really – and this is an issue with a number of third party viewers and applications. Two emerging issues/approaches: one is, Linden is perhaps preparing to position itself as the backbone supplier of infrastructure. the deal with IBM on avatar portability, their open architecture working group, all tend to support the notion that Linden wants to provide the services of avatar identification, currency, age/identity verification and thus become the “home” to our virtual wallets and identitites.
Not too tricky to hack the system with an intelligent looking and/or branded “viewer” or chat app – throw a Coke or MTV logo in the bottom maybe, and use it to suck up passwords.
Issues of identity and verification I see as a tidal wave issue – there needs to be some consensus around these things, and perhaps a validation system much like e-Commerce sites have validation systems and labels (think eTrust for avatars and viewers). Linden seems to be positioning itself this way – taking care of your money, storing your personal avatar identity, and selling land – in the future, we won’t ONLY ask do you trust this viewer, but also do you trust this company to buy land from? Will it still be around 6 months from now? On systems where content isn’t portable (Metaplace, it seems) to other platforms, do you trust making “stuff” that can’t be protected offline?
Identity, trust, validation and verification – early Internet talk, really, remember when no one wanted to use their creit cards online because they didn’t “trust” it? (As if leaving a slip behind in a restaurant was more trustworthy). We’ll see how this plays out, because the driving issue is really standards around transparency, interoperability and identity.
[...] Dusan Writer comments on the potential for a “tipping point” as 400+ sims were brought online to handle the load. What if…that didn’t work? I was in-world and did not watch the show. Aside from a couple problems with assets not uploading for a brief period, the Grid thrummed on without a hitch while avatars bet on how long before the Grid would tear apart. It didn’t. The Second Life website went down for a bit, but the Grid, incredibly, worked well. Maxing at no more than 40k simultaneous users. [...]
On 10.25.07 prokofy said:
Wow, amazingly vivid argument — a picture does always save 1,000 words.
I was so glad you “got it” about the problem with the SEARCH and having to drill down. I don’t know why it should be so hard to persuade people.
The clues and crime scenes look as if they were made for 9-year-olds. They are terribly dumbed down, and contrast with the very breathless action-packed machinima that makes it look less lame.
I think the people who make TV perceive their viewers as stupid. And…that’s why they’ve lost them and their advertising eyeballs. And…that’s why you’ve gained them at your superb build in SL.
The question is what an old lumbering media dinosaur like CBS should do. Well, a different model might be to fund obtrusively sites like yours, and work an ad into the scenery itself, possible.
I’m actually shocked — so the place was created for 9-year-olds and I still didn’t get it? Only one hour after looking at the nice ‘clues’ on the ground I was told by someone that I need a HUD to play (but I couldn’t find it). Then I had some (apparently incorrect) information that the HUD would come automatically by the OnRez Viewer or that you needed the OnRez Viewer to play the game or, well, that you needed to join through the site, or…
In fact, allegedly, none of these are true, you can use the regular viewer, but… you have to start with a HUD!
Wow, 9-year-olds are getting pretty clever these days, and my age is showing… I thought I could help these people out somehow (and spent a few hours on their orientation areas), but… I have no clue what they’re supposed to be doing, and the layout of the OnRez viewer is sufficiently different to be able to give them some tips on the interface when they’re stuck! Also, never having seen the HUD, I can’t also explain to anyone how to use it. This was rather frustrating to me, so I simply hang around with friends and had some nice chats on completely CSI-unrelated buildings. Mind you, the overall buildings are *very* nice, even if they are of the “clean” variety…
On 10.26.07 Economic Mip said:
The Heads up display is called a “Toolbar” It is clearly marked on both of the Orientation island signs when you first start, but if you are having problems Gwen I will of course give you (and anyone else) a copy. Just please do not pay someone for them, as the user’s progress does not transfer with the device.
On 10.26.07 dusanwriter said:
Wonderful comments and thank you Economic for the offers of assistance. I must say, I did like the way that the HUD combined audio and text (and video? I can’t remember now to be honest). Hadn’t seen a multimedia use of a HUD before it was refreshing.
And thank you Prokovy. If I could take an ounce of credit for superb builds it wouldn’t be for the ones of which I took photos. And while we’re on the subject of 9-year olds, with them wandering around virtual Barbie worlds, and Club Penguin (4,000,000+ kiddies) I’d be very careful about any disparaging remarks about the intelligence of 9 year olds when it comes to virtual worlds.
Having said that, I am indebted for your comments and your own observations. Your concentric circles commentary really speaks to the beautiful thing about virtual worlds – the flow of content up and down, ‘old users’ sharing their content with new ones so that new mash-ups and concepts are freshly created.
On 10.26.07 kathleen said:
Another cool feature: the small map in the upper right has a globe icon in the lower right corner. Clicking on the globe icon pops up the full map/tp. I think that’s a brilliant update to the viewer – I hate always having to return to the bottom bar – it’s like always having to go back to the hallway in your house to get to any other room.
[...] Life Tags: law, magic circle, membrane, policy, property, virtual worlds A while back I wrote a lengthy piece on the concept of property, avatar rights to property, and what we mean when we, as users, get in a [...]
On 10.27.07 dusanwriter said:
Sure….I tend to agree, that really is a hot little feature. But I’m still on the side of ignoring the viewer until they fix the search function, which still strikes me as a deliberate attempt to confuse newbies and force them to shop through onRez.
I have been away from SL for a couple of weeks due to being on holiday in RL and have been following the whole CSI thing through blogs such as this one. My home in SL is in Toxia and I really appreciated the positive comments about Toxian City.
From my extensive wanderings in SL I have drawn the conclusion that over 90% of companies setting up a presence in SL don’t get it. All the best sims I have visited are small organically grown places started off by amateurs. Every time I have been to a big hyped “event” in SL its been a disappointment. Most companies treat SL residents as mindless drone consumers happy just to window shop and chat to one another about the wonderful products they are purchasing.
Sims such as Toxia which create a atmosphere and let the people in the sim actively join in with creating new parts of the architecture, role plays etc are some of the most highly visited non-sexual parts of the grid. Don’t forget Toxia has its shops too (admittedly for weapons and the like) and it relies on these shops for paying for its tier etc.
Of course a violent, dark sim peopled by cyborgs, vampires, demons and the like (on a good day) is not for everyone. People get shot in Toxia a lot, people are not nice to other people. That is what makes it _interesting_. The person who can create this sort of interactive community outside of places like Toxia or sex places will be the person who really cracks creating a commercial presence and community in SL that everyone wants to participate in rather that creating a virtual storefront with nothing behind it.
It will take a huge amount of effort to achieve. Ask Miss Wright or any of the other creators of Toxia but the rewards will be immense.
[...] and Rom Ireton. I think everyone has experienced this Second Life bug even the newbies that visited CSI:New York in-world got a taste of Ruth. [...]
[...] 2007, 9:48 pm Filed under: reflexive architecture Dusan Writer posted another very thoughtful entry on his blog (link) about Reflexive Architecture, which really got me thinking. I’m excited to see the concept [...]
I must say I absolutely loved your post. Had never heard about reflexive architecture, but I will certainly try to take up its issues more deeply. I specially think this paragraph is quite thought provoking:
“If virtual worlds feel real, have objects with real value, evoke real (and perhaps enhanced) emotional responses, and ALSO allow the creation of objects and environments that aren’t possible in the physical world – then as new objects and environments are created, maybe we’ll start to see things that change how we view ourselves, the culture we live in, and the world around us. If so, is it possible to invoke spiritual responses because we now have access to new and creative metaphors? This doesn’t replace the spiritual/creative response you might get from seeing the stars at night or an inspiring cathedral. But perhaps it extends our toolkit for invoking this response.”
For sure our constant connection with the internet has redefined what we consider space to be. On the one hand it allows us to understand that space is much more than the coordinates around which we move. Space is much more than a quantification of matter, it is a metaphor which allows us to inhabit the world. To be “in” a space is much more than being here or there; being in a space actually deploys a whole realm of understandings which we are sometimes not aware of. I think in this respect you would really enjoy reading this post of mine which shows how much is presupposed, for instance, in our use of maps:
However, I will end with a serious problem for our actually “living” within virtual space. The reality is that our bodies do not make part of it. Can a space which our bodies do not actually sense, feel and know, be called truly a human space? Or does this tendency, as you yourself foresee, actually make of technology so powerful that our contact with our own bodies and nature is even more jeopardized?
Andrés
On 11.01.07 dusanwriter said:
What a wonderful and thoughtful response Amelo.
Lost in my musings about the value of virtual worlds are musing about the danger. Castranova wrote eloquently about virtual ecomomies and articulated for me some of the dangers of virtual worlds – the Matrix being one possible end point. In a horror scenario, he paints a world where artificial intelligence is used to substitute for ourselves when we are not “in” a virtual world – when I’m out grocery shopping, I can train AI to take over my avatar. In his scenario, eventually these AIs can outlive us when we die. He paints a picture of the last man alive – humans are so immersed in virtual worlds they’ve forgotten the needs of their bodies, forgotten to have children because virtual children are more adoring and less trouble. As humans die off, their AI avatars take over – until those left don’t know if they’re interacting with real or atificial intelligence. As the human race dies off, the last don’t realize that there are fewer and fewer real humans, that most of their relationships are with virtual intelligences. Doom and gloom indeed.
He also paints a more optimistic picture.
I prefer to dwell on the optimistic primarily because I am an optimist, and also because there are enough people who either doubt the capacity for these ’spaces’ or who lack the imagination like the reflective architects of the world to see past the recognized archetypes.
Part of my point about virtual worlds is that there is the potential for the application of the lessons learned and archetypes discovered in these spaces to the ‘real world’. Part of my personal discovery is that I’m perhaps more interested in the ‘membrane’ and the crossing over of identities and ideas from synthetic worlds to the real than I am in the ability of synthetic worlds to fully immerse us. No doubt there will be enough people continuing to strive for virtual worlds that are SO immersive that individuals never want to leave (and in some case, why WOULD they?) I’d like to continue a dialogue about how we can properly integrate our virtual and real world activities.
As Castranova pointed out – there really is no difference. We can earn money in a virtual or a real world, spend time here or there, and there is only an artificial boundary that we define by the nature of the sensory input.
Having said that, as synthetic worlds become more immersive, become more compelling than the real world, this threatens to trigger a widespread migration to virtual worlds the consequences of which will be difficult to measure. The migration will range from large chunks of time amongst a wide swath of people, to nearly complete migrations where people are living and working in virtual spaces. The more that this migration occurs, the less “value” the physical body starts to have. The less value that is placed, perhaps on nature, on human touch.
But some would also argue that our current “physical” spaces are not so physical at all. Are manufactured environments, the experience ecomomy – are these THAT much different from virtual spaces? Retailers manufacture scents to make us buy more. They manufacture fake histories in their store design and signage. They manufacture our experiences towards “training” us to forget the instincts of our bodies and to buy what we don’t need.
So….I’m agreeing and disagreeing. I believe that the mind/body/spirit/environment balance is out of whack in the real world to begin with. I believe virtual worlds have the potential to trigger new emotional responses that, if directed properly, might help to reconfigure culture so that a new balance of mind/body/spirit is possible. I believe that the only thing that is non human about these spaces is the absence of blood and bones but that virtual spaces might actually enable us to step out from behind the inherited masks that our real bodies present to the world (by no choice of our own – gender, race, age) and to present new versions of ourselves that are spiritual, creative and emotional.
I also believe that we risk following a path into synthetic worlds that forever cuts us off from our bodies and perhaps from nature. That there are dangers, and that it is up to the early pathfinders, the artists and architects, and the thinkers like yourself, to remind us that there is more than one aspect of ourselves that we will need to integrate as we grow, expand, append, and explore in these new worlds.
On 11.02.07 prokofy said:
When this conversation surfaced at Metaversed, I asked pointedly: but we don’t have a taxonomy for the Internet, surely. That is, yeah, there’s gov, com, org. Or there’s e-commerce. Or there are portals. Or there are search sites or link farms or porn or intranets. Sure. But the content isn’t as analyzed as everybody seems to want to analyze VWs.
THIS — “a business need to quantify and measure the spaces” — seems to be driving the mad rush now. And frankly, that’s not compelling enough reason to rush to judgement, IMHO, just so somebody can sell widgets to better link the worlds. Oh, I realize they will do that *anyway* — but we should try to preserve the freedom of the spaces anyway, too.
In one way, deciding this or that world is “social” and this or that world isn’t social seems odd — all sites are social at some level — isn’t the stuff you are searching for in Google at times stuff that wants to be found?
Lagorama seems ok — except what if you use Second Life to make a game, or use it for an educational purpose — then it isn’t such a Lifesim.
You could judge them by whether or not they have RMT — and frankly, I look at every game/world and ask whether it has real estate. Because private property is part of the bulwark of player or resident freedom against game gods or coders — even if emulated, even if remaining proprietary. I realize this isn’t a very popular concept among leftoid geeks who hate private property. Look at Twinity, grudgingly giving out only apartments, and even Second Life, only rewarding the “value add” and never conceding that land is really stake.
One thing I really loathe is this constant Geek intrusion of “the lessons learned” of past iterations of the Web, 0.0 or 1.0 or 2.0. This or that thing is “Prodigy” or “Compuserve” and must die or will die anyway on its own. This or that thing is Geocities. This or that thing is “just like a MUD we had, really” etc. I find this terribly constrictive — it’s like a Vietnam Syndrome. Why must we be doomed to have this past and all the concommitant guru thinking around it inflicted on us at every new crossroads in the Metaverse? I’m glad you’re willing to think out of these boxes, Dusan.
It might just happen that walled gardens protect freedom more than open-sourced sandboxes filled with script kiddies that grief everybody and constrict freedom that way.
On 11.02.07 dusanwriter said:
I agree. I also loathe the ‘lessons learned’ mentality. Although I suppose my point with the definitions that seem to be surfacing about the Metaverse is to use the lessons learned from the past and try not to repeat them. The venture capitalists and the “script kiddies” who managed to throw a business plan together often used artificial definitions and taxonomies as window dressing to disguise that a) they had no actual business behind their so-called business models and b) they needed some sort of way to address the fact that there is no line item in a revenue projection to address the nature of a creative, chaotic, changing and ambiguous media.
Here’s how I imagine a pitch to a group of bankers or investors who know nothing about virtual worlds:
“We’re going to create branded entertainment products and aggregate social communities by creating a Web 3.0 space that leverages best in class talent incentivized with virtual currency. Investment in this opportunity is high risk but the risk:ratio return is high because we will establish best practices and aggregate eyeballs within the social/entertainment Web 3.0 space towards creating a portfolio of opportunities for future monetization.”
Here’s what it really means:
“3D stuff is really cool. We really have no idea where this is all headed. We want to take a gamble on creativity, passion, collaboration. We’re going to work with some Neko who hangs out at the Missing Mile and a Gorean Master who also runs an erotic strip club for furries. We figure we’ll throw a bunch of prims together, hope we don’t get griefed, make some cool stuff, and have some fun – and if we can do all that, a whole bunch of people will probably hang out, become friends, and our passion will spread, and some day that whole thing might make us some money or it might not, but we’ll probably survive, we’ll learn a thing or two, we’ll for sure end up with some possibly worthless real estate, a bunch of code, and some objects that we’re just as likely to give away as sell, and hey, maybe we’ll become better human beings by learning to work with each other in a different way, and to help people experience emotional, immersive evnironments in new ways.
These are certainly valid concerns. Let me try to briefly address them.
On walled gardens:
Yes, we are starting out with maintaining control over the servers. Why?
1) We want to have a one-click experience for ordinary people to be able to create a world.
2) We do need to establish enough of a network so that our eventual business model is viable.
You are conflating two separate things a little bit, though. We do not want to have *multiple networks* out there using slight variations on the same tech base. That feels like it defeats the point.
That’s a separate issue from whether we let servers run elsewhere. The system is architected for servers to run anywhere, and we still plan to move in that direction over time. And that is yet another separate issue from whether the servers themselves are open source (currently, no).
We do plan a server-side plug-in system, btw.
On cashing out:
Feel free to use the web services stuff that we offer as part of every world in order to interface with your own solution. A lot of folks won’t have that capability, which is why we offer our own solution. Yes, of course we want to take a cut if we offer the service — that is how we cover the costs of offering it.
The other benefit to offering the virtual currency is that it greatly simplifies transactions between users from different territories, who use different billing solutions, etc.
On legality of cash out:
The law on this is pretty clear. I am unsure why people get up in arms about this, except that perhaps a bad precedent was set by other services, permitting stuff that shouldn’t have been.
Who verifies the legality? Well, we’ll have to. YOU’LL have to. The government sure will.
On interoperability:
We intend to support as many common formats as we can. For 3d, we are more likely to start with interchange formats like COLLADA than with high-end proprietary formats though.
I think a key point here though is that unlike the iPod and your analogy of a locked platform, we are not pushing an asset format on you. Feel free to take stuff out — it will work elsewhere.
The bit that is hardest to move, certainly, would be scripts and data structures. After all, we added event-driven stuff to Lua. But at least it’s Lua, and therefore something you can move to elsewhere.
On ads:
Fair enough on the comment that it’s really “free things on the net that are offered by for-profit entities.” That is what we happen to be, a for-profit entity.
We haven’t settled yet on where and how we will use advertising. That said, yes, it costs money to bring the service to you, and if it’s free, then we have to recoup somehow. Ads is a way to do that.
On 11.02.07 dusanwriter said:
Raph:
Thanks for such a thoughtful response. I’m a real amateur in all this. So a lot of what this is just impressions and notions, as I said at the beginning of my post. Your deep expertise and attention to my thoughts was more than I expected.
Your leadership inspires great confidence that Metaplace will succeed, and my own hope that it will facilitate a “tipping point” for the 3D Web.
As I said, I LOVE Apple. I love my iPod. I love my iPhone. And I love these things because a company I respect and trust takes care to control the core technology and functionality, just as the community will come to respect Metaplace if it continues to communicate as efectively as it has to date, and if the technology is as elegant and simple as I’ve seen.
I hope that my tone was to point out that the 3D spaces that people create are going to be METAPLACE spaces, and that your current model is that you will not license the technology underlying these spaces, and that you will have a hand in the flow of commerce through this technology (although I’m pleased that you can choose other Web services, you’re still taking a cut).
I’d like to clarify – I do NOT have a problem with this.
But I think that there’s a disconnect between the business model for Metaplace and how it’s being positioned and interpreted by future users and the media.
If I were to summarize your “tag” in one phrase that keeps repeating its this: “3D spaces that work like the Web works”. And that’s fair enough. What I you’re saying is that when you go to make a Metaplace space you tools and protocols familiar to those used in developing Web sites and applications. These protocols will both be embedded within Metaplace and other needed protocols will be based on the concept of a very open system for moving, sharing, uploading and animating. By using image formats, for example, that are “Web ready” you are linking into current processes and protocols for image development. Even your scripting language will be based on Lua and thus fairly “transparent”. I’m further encouraged that this open system will include interoperability with 3D software such as Maya and 3DS.
This is exciting stuff. A GIANT leap forward. It will make world building easier. We will all be able to create games, houses, etc. It may very well help us to reach a tipping point – 3D worlds will become as common as Web pages.
But I also believe that your business model is structured so that you are “locking in users” (or at least making it very difficult to leave the platform). There will be benefits to users for being locked in: user-friendly tools, your reputation, the service you provide, etc. (and again, I have no problem with your business model, I’m simply pointing out what I believe is an unacknowledged truth in the public at large).
I believe that when people HEAR about Metaplace they sort of envision the “HTML of 3D Worlds” – a new, Web-friendly, open system that will put the tools of world building in the hands of all.
But there’s a difference here – you have invented a kind of HTML for 3D worlds, but it’s owned by a private company (Metaplace).
To truly “work like the Web” Metaplace would need to allow users freedom of choice to move their “3D Web sites” wherever they wish, to handle commercial transactions how they wish, etc.
Will Metaplace support portability of avatar identity? Will you have the ability to impose any controls over currency exchange? If I become unhappy with the support I’m getting for an online game that I developed on Metaplace and so want to move it to Second Life will I be able? If I develop a game that I want to deploy across multiple platforms how easy will that be? Or will it be like the old PC/Apple days – develop a game and an Apple version was a “nice to have” based on sales not a need to have.
Well, if I were your investors I’d sure hope the answer was on the side of a business model that didn’t “give away the store”.
You’re in business. You need to make money. And by letting your users in on the action, and if you develop great tools, and if you do a masterful job supporting and encouraging your community I’m optimistic that Metaplace will do what I hope it will – extend 3D development tools, help achieve a tipping point for synthetic worlds, and to move game/world building out of the hands of Sony and into the hands of users. (If anyone can do it it’s likely you, just be careful about too much pressure from your VC backers to “monetize” your community).
I believe that creativity is spiritual. Tools like Metaplace will help people share their aspirations, hopes, dreams, thoughts, ideas, stories, myths, and experiences (and, yeah, to create places where we can virtually kill each other but hey, that can have its own upsides). My preference is for open source everything but we don’t live in Eden – there are walls around our gardens for a reason, and one of them is to earn a living and to hopefully do it in a way that’s as authentic as possible.
There’s a business model behind Metaplace as you acknowledge, and I think it’s important to remain authentic and open about what the potential downsides and restrictions to this business model might be for the typical user.
Thanks, Raph, for hopefully helping to advance an agenda of making 3D worlds ubiquitous, easy to use, and easy to build. And to potential users, thanks for thinking about the pros and cons – easy-to-use tools and a shared community where you might get locked in (to a degree) to someone’s platform, or REALLY hard to use tools where it’s all yours but good luck maintaining it and getting anyone to show up.
P.S.
- Great to hear on server-side plug-ins, and I think I understood the distributed server architecture. I still stand by my Apple analogy (maybe not my iPod analogy though) that you’re controlling versions of the technology because it will not be open source. And thank GOD Apple keeps control of much of its core technology, it’s how they’ve maintained their singular focus on best-in-the-world user-centered design.
- I think I’m totally mystified on cashing out. Here’s my question – if I want to sell an object on e-Bay, why do I then need to further convert that transaction through a virtual currency, and then translate it back to dollars? If I sell a REAL thing on eBay, there are protocols in place for protecting the legality of that transaction.
I really don’t have a problem with putting safeguards into the flow of money and transactions, I just truly don’t understand why just because a world is virtual why it needs a separate virtual currency (other than for, as you say, simplicity when you may be looking at 100 currencies). Why are you saying that the protection is at the point of cashing out? I really think I’m just confused because the model seems to treat “virtual money” as illiquid UNTIL you cash it out, and I actually see it as money at the point it’s earned (whether in a virtual currency or not).
- On ads: I have a feeling you’ll approach these very carefully. You’ve seen enough examples in the world of gaming to know that a misplaced ad can just as easily turn a user AGAINST a brand.
- On interoperability – I hadn’t heard a clear answer on this before. Thanks for the clarification – it was as I had hoped and partly expected, so I’m glad you’re trying to create the level of portability you describe.
[...] now to check on the progress of the Missing Avatar case (I’ve read that Detective Taylor of CSI:New York is on the case, LOL!) to find the blog gone. What greeted me was a Wordpress Error page. Wow! When [...]
Seems like the currency thing is the big point of confusion…
OK, first example. You make a world, want to charge people for stuff. You don’t have any tech or connections or knowledge on how to do that. For you, you can use the Metaplace currency and script objects will do all the heavy lifting for you. Stuff can be listed on our marketplace, etc. We get a transaction fee.
Second example. You want to charge dollars directly. You use a script module that handles a web service bridge to Paypal or a third party that handles billing and transaction verification. Our cut = zero.
That said, odds are good (we hope) that you didn’t have to write this module — in fact, you may have gotten it from our marketplace! And if you did write it, you can also sell it via the marketplace. (Modules with autoinstall do have to go through the network, that’s how we autoinstall them for you). In those cases, we get a transaction fee.
But it might be an open source module, in which case you could have just copy/pasted the code for it. Our cut is zero again.
So you see, it really is intended as “if you use a service we offer, we take a cut, and if you don’t, we don’t.”
On 11.02.07 dusanwriter said:
Hmm. Well that strikes me as an open and fair system. I really get confused on this stuff, I suppose….so now I understand the “cut” part – and again i don’t intend to make it sound like I think you’re after some huge money grab here, we’re all in a transaction economy, micropayments add up and are generally more fair to individuals so I like, and you’re a business – sounds like a win/win model.
Will Metaplace ever control its currency (as Linden does, basically “printing” or retiring money (depends whose stats you read) to keep the Linden exchange rate artificially fixed to the USD?)
Hey – and by the way, thanks for paying attention to my rambings it’s an honour.
[...] geographies. Whether this business model could survive the much discussed possible development of a virtual overlay on Google Earth remains to be [...]
[...] Changes to Virtual Economies and the Dissolving Membrane: Metaplace, Second Life, Twinity A few developments seem like natural shifts in the nature of virtual worlds and their economies but leave me perplexed about the future. I’m not an economist and don’t really know the first thing about it other than what I’ve picked up in bits and pieces with my initial framework provided by Edward Castranova who helped me to understand the reason for the biases, misunderstandings, and flaws in virtual world economies. [...]
TV Show Over? Obsess About It on the Web That same week, “CSI: NY” on CBS catapulted to No. 4 on the list, no doubt because a character, Mac Taylor, entered the virtual world Second Life to solve a crime.
Second Life and the ‘view of the child …
prokofy: Good points, which I think play right back into something I said on Lag-O-Rama…”This leads me to ponder two things:
1. When did we decide that we had to start classifying online games like championship dogs? “Ah, yes…that’s a sheephound, but it’s not of the Austrian Bluehair variety, so it’s inferior.”
2. Why does it freakin’ matter so much to so many people?”
People tend to spend time arguing about this type of thing, whether it’s relevant or not. Personally, I think VW’s should each be judged on their own merits, and not shoe-horned into some pre-existing category…if it’s designed well, it shouldn’t neatly fit into a category at all.
Also a good point regarding making a more traditional “game” within Second Life…there are several already present in SL, of course, but your point is taken. Of course, a television show that anyone would agree is a comedy still has moments of drama in it…there are no absolutes.
dusan: That may be the best pitch/translation I’ve ever seen. Awesome! By the way…does anyone else find it sadly humorous that the ones that preach the “lessons learned” philosophy are usually the ones that didn’t learn the correct lesson anyway?
On the one hand, the rush to create a taxonomy of virtual worlds seems to combine a desire to attach any world-building, platform-creating, 3D project with the right catch phrases so that investment money can come pouring in.
I met with someone yesterday who said he’s launching “The Facebook for healthcare…we’re going to do for healthcare on Web 2.0 what mySpace did for kids communities of interests.”
The meeting was booked for an hour. I left after 10 minutes. He’ll probably be a gazillionaire in 6 months but his Koolaid has a weird glowing look to it.
On the OTHER hand models are ways of representing reality to test out theories. The idea SHOULD be that a model can let us examine, explore, dissect, criticize and then improve upon our understanding of reality – with a model, its cheap to build and it doesn’t need to change reality but can create feedback loops WITH reality.
My point about these taxonomies is partly to remind people that they’re just models, partly to debunk business models against a repeat of the old Web portal/e-commerce/aggregate eyeball days, but also to ask whether we should be seeking alternative taxonomies.
Maybe look at them, Prokovy suggests, for whether they have ‘real estate’ and what models of property drive the spaces. Maybe for economics. What about categorizing the worlds for the ‘cascade’ of creative content? Or for the availability of collaborative creative toolsets? A lot of attention is given to the definition of these spaces based on their social tools and level of immersion (fantasy/game vs. mirror worlds/LifeSims). But if the 3D Web is a new platform for human creativity and a possibly powerful tool for social change and creativity, then why not create a taxonomy based on how flexible a platform is in allowing creative, collaborative development (either by the code and tools themselves, the ToS, or the intellectual property “rules”).
I’m not suggesting an alternative taxonomy but I’m also suggesting we not throw the idea of models out entirely. Each “world” WILL be judged on its own merits – basically, if anyone shows up or not.
A mental model is an explanation in someone’s thought process for how something works in the real world. It is a kind of internal symbol or representation of external reality, hypothesized to play a major role in cognition and decision-making. Once formed, mental models may replace carefully considered analysis as a means of conserving time and energy.
Considering Anshe’s brief background as an escort, the following sentence needs a pardon the pun: “Anshe Chung will immediately tend to suck off the buyers…”
[...] User Experience Mapping of Second Life: Academic Model The following is a map of the common user experience of Second Life posted as part of a serious dissertation on bringing users up to speed in Second Life. [...]
[...] The concept of creating a legal jurisdiction for virtual worlds isn’t new…the question remains whether a End User License Agreement (EULA) or Terms of Service (ToS) carries with it a legal framework for partly resolving legal disputes that are “real”. Linden recently revised its Terms of Service to deal with claims against itself. I covered this here. [...]
[...] architecture, which I’ve written about previously and is covered in detail at The Arch may open one doorway to strange loopiness. The idea that our [...]
On 11.09.07 paiskidd said:
Dusan, your surname is most appropriate, you are a deep thinker and a skilled writer. I am most flattered by your reference to my attempt to grapple and make sense of my SL explorations… you took the concepts I was talking about to a level of abstraction I could only point and grunt at from the muddy depths.
I think your writings here are of great value and interest to anyone contemplating the impact of virtual worlds, and I strongly encourage you to continue sharing your insights and findings with us here.
On 11.10.07 Denny Martynov said:
I’ll never forget our dear Dummie. Now that he’s disappear, we all feel his missing.
all the word would be useless, watching what Caleb did to remember him, so I want to remember him in all the times that he stayed with us, playing and enjoying our company.
[...] Changes to Virtual Economies and the Dissolving Membrane: Metaplace, Second Life, Twinity [...]
On 11.10.07 Felixe Thorne said:
One that was always there for you, always had time for you, no matter what life dealt him.
The loss of Dummie leaves a gaping hole in the fiber of the second life kid community; and it truly could not have happened to a least deserving person.
Dummie was my lil raver, always partying with me shaking his butt lol wen i told him too. Sneaky out of bed to come hangout.
His personality resembled alot, he shone through quite a bit.
He was the most amazing, caring, fun loving person i got to know, each friend he made he has touched.
Now hes resting, and not hurting he has left his partner to an extend but caleb baby boi hes always gunna be in your heart!
heres a poem for dummie:
Dummies Roots xxxx
Time is the root of all this earth;
These creatures, who from Time had birth,
Within his bosom at the end
Shall sleep; Time hath nor enemy nor friend.
All we in one long caravan
Are journeying since the world began;
We know not whither, but we know
Time guideth at the front, and all must go.
Like as the wind upon the field
Bows every herb, and all must yield,
So we beneath Time’s passing breath
Bow each in turn, – why tears for birth or death?
This is for dummie a beloved partner, friend, and also a great dancer
With love angel
Wrote Sat 10th november 2007
Flo, Caleb and i are always here, hoping your watching down on us.
We miss you so much…
But we will always remember the fun we had together.
Love Angel <3
R.I.P MY LIL RAVER BOY!
big hug and kisses
Maybe you can sneak out of bed again to come party with us! amazing
On 11.10.07 Caleb Antwerp said:
Thank you for posting this. It has touched my heart to see people care.
Second Life…… is Real Life there is no line. and it Hurts
I say a little prayer for thee , with the angels is my D . I wish you were still here with me, Forever in my heart you’ll be. I love you Dummie.
I would also like to thak everyone for their support and understanding in this diffucult time for me. I whih it didnt have to be.
Bye Dummie
On 11.11.07 Gavin Little said:
I’ve been crying a lot, that’s for sure…I didn’t know Dummie so well, but then I see the people who knew him and their sadness and it sure touches me. I don’t know who says all this stuff about things being not real – loss is real, and the loss is all around, you can see it when in a small community, and my heart hurts. And my prayers go out to Caleb and everyone who knew Dummie so well. His spirit sure does live on.
[...] Reading academia is a lot like listening to venture capitalists and the people after their money. I previously offered an interpretation of: [...]
On 11.11.07 Wilfred Huet said:
Without a star and only the light post to keep me company My thoughts are with you. With silence around me and only my footsteps for company My thoughts are with you. As the cool winter breeze caresses my face My thoughts are with you. As tears well up in my eyes my thoughts are with you. Your body stayed but your soul went to heaven. I think of you and will always remember you Dummie, rest easy buddie.
Wilfred.
On 11.11.07 fl0cale said:
I knew Dummie from his first day on.
I remember it pretty well, ’cause it was some days after my RL birthday and he arrived at nemo with that newbie kids shape on. He was trying to get
into appearence and me and some others were trying to help him. As he said he was german I IMed him and he answered me that he was very glad to find a german boy around ’cause he didnt know anyone. I was the first german boy he was talkin to in SL. I gave him some other names of german boys so he wouldnt feel so alone like he felt that day. I dont know how it happened but i saw him cuddling with jesper the same day. He told me in IM that he had a crush on him (who could take that bad?). It was such a cute moment.
(Sorry if i am writing rubbish or weird things, i am crying writing this)
Dummie developed fast inside the community. He was ALWAYS nice, friendly and just a gentle boy ! I can’t think of a time where he wasnt !
Dummie was one of the boys i most admired in SL! This is why it’s hard for me to believe that he is gone now. Sometimes i wish everything would be a very bad joke and he would come back and i would forgive him, yes i would! Specially when i think about his last messages to me:
“Dummie Beck: Flo, do you have a sec. for me?
Fl0 Cale: uhm, not atm, sorry.
Dummie Beck: OK, i will try it later then ”
He never tried it later :_(
“You will never be forgotten,
we pledge to you today,
a hallowed place within our hearts,
is where you’ll always stay”
Thank You Dummie for the great time, my friend!
´It’s a blessing to keep memories of a good person`(Proverbs 10:7)
LOVE
flo
On 11.11.07 Waki Janus said:
Dummie was the sweetest loveliest kid. One of the best on SL. I first met him when I helped him settle into OBC and set up his bunk for him. He’s been a good friend and great fun boy and will be much missed by all us in Nat and Jay’s group.
My heartfelt sympathy to you Caleb.
Love you always Dummie.
Waki
On 11.11.07 vagen slade said:
awww gonna miss ya Dummie
Dummie was the friendlyest person you could meet. He always approached people and said hello. He warmed our hearts and made us happy.
He will be missed by all who knew him in sl.
Hope there is a sl for you in heaven Dummie.
Will luv you always, and will miss you heaps.
Vagen…
On 11.11.07 paiskidd said:
As the first rumors and bits of info started showing up, there was a sense of helpless blindness to know the situation of the person behind Dummie’s avatar.
This disconnect of anonymity of SL is coldly frightening enough when we consider what will we do if SL disappeared tomorrow and with it the connection to all our friends here.
Death of our loved ones confronts us all with a finality and helplessness of our corporeal status as temporary participants in the game of life. Dummie’s passing is so achingly compounded by both the realness and the unrealness of SL.
As I feel Flo’s pain as he contemplates the echo of the last words, I look around at those of us that are still here and try to better embrace the fullness of Now.
[...] was tipped off by reading Dusan’s blog of an SL event yesterday. In the above image you see myself and Robin attending a live simulcast [...]
On 11.11.07 Nathan Pollock said:
Just got an off line IM Email to comfirm the rumor was true, Dummie Beck will no longer be back as we know him in SL.
But Dummie, you will be in my friends list as long as I am in SL. You will never be forgotten.
I was fortunate enough to have meet Dummie with in his first days in SL at the Vortex. I could see he was the normal new Brown Haired AV. We exchanged contact and became chat mates. I was in the lucky position in being able to assist in setting up his smooth looking image. He accepted my offer for this with genuine thanks, that warmed my heart.
I remember him saying, I like talking with you Nathan, I can understand you.
See, Dummie could hardly speak English when he first came to SL. Little did he know how carefull I was in typing simple English to him with no slank so he could understand me. But WoW, with in months Dummie could converse in English so well. We recently joked about those early days of his in SL.
From our first meeting at the Vortex we continued to be Mates and Dummie Beck, became a member of the Nat & Jays family home.
Once again Dummie, you have no need to ever leave our home group.
It is people that make Life-Life. And Dummie U touched mine and made my life richer for knowing U. Gone but never forgotten. Thank U mate. Smiles.
On 11.11.07 DjTom Voom said:
I am so sorry for Dummie. Always knew him as happy and lovely boy.
And i am indeed sorry to have never knewn him more close and speak about his problems. But maybe he would had liked to have a second life without sorrows. But it shows us Second Life is more than a game. Nothing is like before here too, if u loose a friend , a love here.
So its fine to have more contact than in the second life. Maybe an email adress …
I am very sorry and feel with all persons who were close or closer than me with Dummie.
Dummie I miss you……
On 11.11.07 britney canning said:
hey my son dummie i will always always miss you.
You was the best son in the world.
you always help me out and was a loving little boy.
i will never forget you my darling dummie.
rest my little one mummy loves you loads.
love u baby
mummyxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On 11.11.07 tobytendaze said:
It’s been a very sad weekend and my heart goes out to Caleb and all those who called Dummie Beck a friend. Sadly, I did not really get to know him well though he seemed he and Caleb seldom missed one of my Vortex sets. Now, I’m not going to get that chance to get to know him and I regret it.
My message to Caleb; You’re not alone, there are many out there who care about you. Feel free to IM me anytime.
[...] It’s common knowledge know that Dummie Beck is the deceased. Dusan has written an excellent tribute that features many thoughtful comments from those who knew Dummie. I recommend you go read it and [...]
On 11.11.07 Kurtis Justin Corrigible said:
Like many of the others, I didn’t know him well. But I knew him well enough to be saddened, and to miss him.
I remember that at first, it felt awkward to say “Hi, Dummie”, like it was some sort of running joke. But he always responded cheerfully, or greeted me first. It didn’t take long to learn that there was a real personality behind the name, friendly, and fun, and caring. It was no longer an epithet, but rather the identity of someone who made our experiences delightful.
My heart goes out to those close to him, and I’m saddened by not being able to get to know him better.
On 11.12.07 Dj Tom Voom said:
I remember him from the days at the old Flos Beach, where Flo helped him with Second Life. He called me always ” Tom the Cat” .. He was such a nice and friendly character.. I am sad that i have now not the chance to see him again..:(
On 11.12.07 Lokirian Janus said:
I actually only met Dummie personally a handful of times, but i never heard a bad word said about him and was always impressed with his sense of decency and kindness.. A member of my own family passed away very recently irl.. and i took some solace from the following poem:
God’s Lent Child
“I’ll lend you for a little while
A child of mine,” God said
“for you to love the while he lives,
And mourn for when he’s dead.
It may be six or seven years
Or forty two or three.
But will you, till I call him back,
Take care of him for me?
He’ll bring his charms to gladden you
And – (should his stay be brief) –
You’ll have his lovely memories
As a solace for your grief.
I cannot promise he will stay,
Since all from earth returns;
But there are lessons taught below
I want this child to learn.
I’ve looked the whole world over
In my search for teachers true
And from the things that crowd life’s lane
I have chosen you.
Now will you give him all your love?
Not think the labor vain?
Nor hate me when I come to take
This Lent Child back again?”
“I fancied that I heard them say –
“Dear Lord, Thy will be done
For all the joys Thy Child will bring
The risk of grief we’ll run.
We will shelter him with tenderness,
We’ll love him while we may
And for the happiness we’ve known
Forever grateful stay.
But should Thy angel call for him,
Much sooner than we’ve planned,
We’ll brave the bitter grief that comes
And try to understand.”
On 11.12.07 Ruslan Laryukov said:
Dummie, wherever you are … we miss you, we love you, we pray for you, and we thank you for the sunshine, friendship and kindness that you shared with us.
Yeah, I hear you. I honestly am having serious doubts about whether Linden Lab can handle what they have created – or if they can jump the gap from what they made Second Life to what at least a few frustrated people see as the potential for the Second Life platform.
Linden Lab also seems very much leaned (and perhaps liened?) toward favoritism. That those who could be considered Linden Lab’s chosen few see no problem is not the issue. That is a serious no-brainer. What is the issue are the people who are not among the favored who are trying to do things.
Linden Lab created the gap. Linden Lab can fix it, if they so wish. Me? I’m waiting to see what else pops up on the radar. Surely *someone* can do better than this.
I often think he only has gone out,
And soon he will be home again!
The day is lovely! Oh, be not afraid!
He only has gone out for a long walk!
Indeed, he only has gone out,
And soon now will come home again!
Oh, do not be afraid, the day is lovely!
He only has gone out to yonder hills!
He only went ahead of us
And do not feel like comming home again!
We shall overtake him on yonder hills,
In the sunshine!
Lovely is the day on yonder hills!
[...] Tuesday, November 13th, 2007 in Metaverse General Tags: 3D, papervision, reflective architecture Fascinated by reflective architecture, I ran across the following which acts in a very similar way to the objects developed by Keystone Bouchard as I discussed here. [...]
On 11.16.07 Koffeekid Smalls said:
The passing of Dummie Beck was indeed a sad moment for so many of us who were touched and blessed with his kindness, humor and spirit. Dummie had a special gift, a talent for making those around him smile and laugh and he shared it with us all freely. He was a special boy with a special place in many peoples heart.
300 Days ago I was running around naked on Help Island, sending friendship offers to anyone who even said hello. I even remember rezzing a prim and taking it back in my inventory thinking they was only so many prims per person. I was alone (and naked) in a big old virtual world.
Now, I have wonderful friends, a family and found myself awestruck that I found real love with someone in Second Life. It sounds incredible when I tell people because it IS incredible. The limitations of Second Life only exist because we allow them to. Let your heart freely open up and take your friendships to the next level. Get to know the person behind that avatar, let them get to know you. Reach out and touch someone’s life, pick up the phone and call them, take a trip and visit them. Life is short and can end suddenly, once our trip around the sun is finished, there are no second chances.
Haha….well I hope you realize it was in good-natured fun.
By the way, I really do like your model – I’ve pulled it out on a number of occassions to explain to partners or clients the stumbling blocks that lie between those first experiences with SL and finding the sweet spot of creativity and purpose which is its potential.
Keep up the good work!
On 11.17.07 Waylon Blackthorne said:
He was a kind, gentle, very friends and warmhearted boy. Always there for his friends. Dummie always brightened up the day.
I never got to know him very well. and now I wish I had done but I’ll certainly miss him and it makes me sad that he’s gone.
My thoughts and sympathy go out to Caleb and all the people who knew him
We will all miss you so much, you are forever in our hearts
bye Dummie…
Waylon
On 11.19.07 Patrice Pizzicate said:
Dummie, i dont have any words for what i am feeling now. today i heard what happened. I am sad and shocked. Why you? its not fair. why are all the sweet and tender persons in this worlds taken away.
the only thing i can think about is, that you are needed in an other place to make it better. A place that very much needed you. And i know that you kindness and loving will make it better very soon.
i met you in a club as the son of husama and silva. and de brother of speedy. you were always very nice. we talked, had fun and laughed. I especially know how you made husama feel, a very good friend of mine. I am so thankfull of what you did for her.
You are a very tender and kind person and you will be missed among friends and family. If i see the sadness they have now they lost you, it is shown how important you are to them.
rest in peace , dear dummie.
wherever you are, i know you will be watching down on all of us with a big smile.
[...] Changes to Virtual Economies and the Dissolving Membrane: Metaplace, Second Life, Twinity“He argues that a combination of using Artificial Intelligence (non-player characters) and control of the flow of objects into the world allows developers to control for MUDflation.” SITE: http://feeds.aigamedev.com/~r/GameAiNews/~3/179693276/18338914 [...]
On 11.19.07 Walt Faulds said:
Dummie – my first real good friend in SL.
We talked nights and nights about life and you helped me to restart my life in SL.
Thank you Dummie with love – in our hearts you’re still alive.
Walt
On 11.19.07 husama korobase said:
my dear dummie, you was my lovely son and silvas son in sl and i miss you so much , i know i cant write many it is so dificult that you are gone, i dont understand why you ….we miss you…we love you… and we will always do!!! you are in my heart …. and you stay always there i have make a place for you ….special for you …oww dummie i miss you ;-”"”( i cant never seen you again… and the hug what you give me on your way i will miss so much, my god dummie I MISS YOU ………… your mum Husama korobase …
On 11.19.07 BW Kamachi said:
Dummie, i don’t know you so wel
but you was the lovely son of my girlfriend
Rest in peace
We will miss you
BW Kamachi
On 11.19.07 Speedy Frog said:
Dear dummy, I still cannot believe it we will this for us never see again, I can only think to you to this how much fun we had and how much nonsense we have made. I will never forget you and always carry you in my hearts.
in Love Speedy
p.s.
Excuses my bad English, but I can not think correctly at the moment
On 11.20.07 markie Bleac said:
Dummie;
You were my first friend here on Second Life and I hope some day we will meet in Heaven when God calls me like he did you. You will be trully missed here and i klnw that we will all live again topgether in Heaven.
[...] strange and its end is filled with mysteries, shadows and the truest knowledge of our unknowing. Dummie Beck’s recent death and the feelings and responses it evoked has left me thinking, grieving (for someone I [...]
On 11.26.07 paiskidd said:
The question of avatar ownership tickles many threads to be tugged. I would hope that our use of virtual worlds leads us more to our humanity, and thus, to our sharing our being-ness with others across the spatial now. The evidence I have gathered, subjective as it is, tells me that my closest ones perceive me behind the veils and channels, and than another would only fool those not really human.
Not that I haven’t thought of other modes. When I began describing SL to those in meat-space I told them to imagine a soap opera that is immersive; where the characters are also the writers and the audience. In that thread of thinking, I then imagined a super-avatar, one for which a team of writers, fashion consultants, language coaches, designers, and others converged creativity and strategy to create an über-personality.
As I think of being human, I think of Grandfather in the movie Little Big Man, who referred only to certain members of his tribe as “human”. I speak of the possibility of SL, or anything else, helping us to evolve our humanity when I also feel we may have already surrendered it and rendered it to the genteel beast of post-industrial zombie-ism. How many of us can pass a Turing test of the soul? How do you know, a co-worker asked last week, that you are really interacting with actual people “in there”? If the three vehicles were able to complete the DARPA challenge, how hard could it be to make an avatar that passed for one with a human running it?
I have found myself in way of life where I have adapted this so-called modern life and mode of surviving, at least up partway up the ramp of Maslow’s needs, but I find myself isolated by a series of logical conclusions. SL has brought me into a new level of human interaction. Death is part of that. SL is not perfect, but it short-circuits some of the insulation our way of life has as side-effects. As I sat looking at my screen knowing that a couple thousand miles away, my beloved friend was sobbing as he grieved Dummie’s passing, I wanted nothing more than to hold that real person in my real arms. So far, that interaction seems irreplaceable by our technology.
On 11.27.07 Walt Faulds said:
Some weeks ago Dummie sent me an IM
“Walt, you may believe it or not, I feel like living in heaven with Caleb”!
I established a memory-stone beside our house with a link to this site.
Feel free to visit at slurl.com/secondlife/Pride%20Island/219/114/21
[...] invites comments. I’ve posted on this topic before. It’s still not clear how the currency value will be set and whether Metaplace itself will [...]
On 12.10.07 silva ayres said:
Hi my son , you will always be in my heart forever ,I love you so much ,and your mother love you 2.
I know you are looking at us and smiling.
You will always be my son and speedy love you 2 , your sister miss you a lot .we all miss you.
All those crazy nights and days playing and having fun will always be inside me forever.I miss you a lot dummie.
bye my son
The in world issues have ZERO to do with the CTO stepping down. If you had followed the various posts/blogs and read up a bit more It would be really obvious that there are obviously managment issues and Corey even stated that he and the CEO simply do not see eye to eye on priorities or the directions SL is going.
As reported on CNET, (http://www.news.com/8301-13772_3-9832840-52.html) Philip and Cory no longer saw eye-to-eye. For how long this was the case I have no idea, and certainly the most recent spate of problems with the Grid hardly led to the termination. I find it hard to imagine Philip pulling out his hair and screaming “My gawd! Our residents can’t teleport! That’s unacceptable! You’re fired!”
Whether the purported e-mail from Philip to staff is true, there is little difference between the e-mail:
“Cory and I have differences in how we think Linden should be run, differences that in the past few months have become irreconcilable.”
and the official release:
“Therefore, Cory and I are in agreement that our paths, at this point in time at least, lie in different directions.”
The bottom line is there’s a “T” in CTO, and the CTO needs to work with the CEO. Which vision is right and which skill set is best suited to taking SL into the next phase of its evolution will only become clear in time or if Linden can do a better job communicating a broader set of priorities other than platitudes and Windlight.
Cory leaving did not result in the grid failures of the past few months, but an overall lack of coherence, performance, and sufficient progress did. This leaves it in Philip’s hands to bring his team into alignment with whatever his vision is and hope that it’s the right one.
Having said all that I also agree with Kabalyero – TP and grid issues don’t particularly phase me. This is messy, evolving, prototyping, mucky (excuse the pun) fun. Linux had Linus and Linden had Cory under Philip’s direction. Messy is good. Messy is chaos and chaos is the friend of creation. But please please can I have my inventory back?
On 12.13.07 Jerome Wishbringer said:
I met Dummie when he First Came to Second Life. I was not Around Much But My Partner Nathan Pollock befriended him and Introduced him to me.
Nat went on to Help him find a new Av to fit his Personality and give him a makeover for his Appearance in Second Life. I had only a few encounters with Dummie and wish I could have gotten to Know him as well as all of those who he found and found him in Second Life.But he made an impression on me from the start. And because he was a friend to Nat and so many and Missed by so many Nathan, Vagen and I have placed a plaque in his honor on our land and HIM & I & US Commune and Locomotive. YOU are Not Forgotten Dummie.
HI Dummie
I am back from my hollidays it was verry nice had a good time only to short.:-) I was missing SL bud I am glad to be back so i can see all my friends again….
Thats what i was plant to wricht to all my friends! until i hear this sad sad news Dummie is gone what?? Dummie gone no longer on SL ?? cant be I dont believe that he was allways there ath the OBC dancing with us ore ath the Vortex he loved SL to be with his friends and partner Caleb. No MERL he is leaving SL and RL!! I am verry sad Dummie was a good friend a nice boy!! we talkd a lot we dance a lot we laugh a lot and even we cry together Dummie I will miss you verry much you where a wonderfull person to me and a fine friend I will miss you and hope iff there is a god he wil cover you like you dith to me and all your friends I love you DUMMIE and hope we meed in next live god bless you! hugs your MERLIE!!!
ich werde dich immer im härzen tragen Rühe im frieden
On 12.15.07 Idetrorce said:
very interesting, but I don’t agree with you
Idetrorce
On 12.16.07 paiskidd said:
I am nodding my head up and down, Dusan. I have yet to see very many examples of brands seeming to know how to make use of SL. A thesis I was getting as I read this seems to say that the big brands climbed in thinking a top down approach would bring avatars flocking to their site, when in reality a lot of the sustained energy of SL is a bottom-up participation.
I sat in a meeting of paleo-technologists and perked up when one presenter talked about SL. I was thinking, how is he going to relate SL with the topic of this meeting? In the end, he really couldn’t. He simply said, and I am paraphrasing, “I know something big is going on here, but I don’t know what it really is, but I know we should be a part of it”. So, ok, dogpile on the buzzword.
Every year the “Society for the German language” choses the “Word of the year” (or actually the wordS of the year). This year “Second Life” was on the top ten list for the first time and came in as 7th – the highest entry from the internet world.
[...] its (occassionally limited) technology is its ability to remind us of deeper meanings. I’ve written at length about the strange loop, and how virtuality circles back to reality. There is a rich vein [...]
[...] To that I proffer that the future might not be “professionally made games”. That people will turn to platforms that allow them to make games and games will go independant. Just as we have now have micro content boiling all over the video and audio realms courtesy of YouTube and podcasts, we may, no we will probably, see the same in the games industry. Dusan Writer, who owns a company that does work in advertising, strategy, marketing and design working mainly in healthcare, environmental issues, and training noted my outlook on VastPark, MetaPlace and Second Life in a blog entry. [...]
[...] I’ll suggest that anyone interested in the meta-issues of Second Life – especially the preoccupation with corporate co-opting of SL – take a look at this post. [...]
I’m also looking forward to trying out Metaplace. If it becomes a competition for Second Life then much better. Hopefully, Second Life will improve. Second Life needs a legitimate competitor right now.
[...] my amateur’s armchair, I’ve given my take before on the economies of virtual worlds, riffing off the work of Edward Castranova, including my [...]
[...] Dusan Writer touches on many things I agree with in her follow-up. One being Edward Castranova’s desire for protecting the magic circle. Users will define what the magic circle will be and in the not so near future, if they wish, they will be creating the entire magic circle.. When does the game begin and end? It varies from individual to individual. Like turn of the century Quake matches via TCP/IP…you were not the best until you mastered Ping flood protection, learned to send a string of out of band data against your foe on TCP port 139, coordinated via ICQ, kept up with the birth of the Stooge bot and a host of other challenges. The game demanded players improve their security skills or suffer. The game went far beyond the game’s own boundaries- yet people played and they still play. [...]
VastPark’s tool is clunky, Kabalyero – and why they mapped the keyboard the way they did I have no idea. Having said that, I’ve been having fun playing with it and pretending it’s like the first days of SL.
On 12.20.07 Etha Beck said:
..but sorry guys i dont understand i never meet Dummie i seen only some signs in his memory..but some rumors arrived to me are Dummie have only change his avatar’s name and he still life in sl is true or not?!? You are sure he is really dead in rl ..becouse is not possible to joke about it, if is a joke is a really stupid thing..plz help to me to understand who are right??
very good thoughts,,
alas, and not surprising it is exactly what NOT was done or is being done in the 3d media world of today..now known as by the “virtual worlds-avatar” pr meme.
Remember, it wasnt any single “social 2.0-eyeball driven advertisier paid for” platform that created the more high production level 2d web boom in 1997, It was a “free”-aka stolen mac copies- SIMPLE, NO SERVER, NO giving over your IP rights or need approval by , driven software tool/application called “Flash” that allowed a higher production level to come to the web, thus attracting those who create and sell such services to it…and then those who would want to utilize it.
As long as “3d web media” is caught in social. web2.0 blog memes and VC based get rich quick on “service” platform type thinking, it will only be another failure for the medium for those who could use it for their own reasons.
SL reached and now has peaked “interest” by mass media makers due to its “chaos” of tools for creation….just like flash had, but SL failed to allow others to TRULY create their OWN PROPERTY, and now will provide the template for many failures being built today, due to the “service” mentaility of being another google, not another macromedia…. that is required today for bloggers and thus “money interests” to offer any support.
People make things with TOOLS… NOT Services…
an old lesson, one not learned, and one that will be sadley repeated for those who really want to use 3d realtime media to create in and with.
c3
On 12.21.07 Doctor Rodenberger said:
Thanks for your post on our factory! The idea is actually motivated by a old video on telematic production created by the filmmaker Alex Rivera called Cybraceros. http://www.invisibleamerica.com/whycybraceros.shtml
And yes, we are interested in issues of labor exploitation in the global game industry, gold farming, Madam Chung and her sweatshop and the increasing overlap of leisure and labor incurred by hand held devices and the cultural production of play!
[...] thinking about the strange loop and recursion, I’ve written before about the fact that there are both constructivist and deconstructivist pathways to [...]
I would just like to point out (in the nicest possible way of course) that there’s a big difference between data collection and data analysis (and a lot of demand for the latter).
I think you have wonderfully resumed the experience of disorientation and later, either discouragement or exhilaration when one discovers Second Life to be less a game than a new world. I hope your advice is heard.
One thing I have difficulties finding myself in is the Augmentationists vs. Immersionists debate. With all due respect for Gwyneth Lewellyn’s categorization, I find both mixed instead of distinct. My SL activities are based on RL interests and behaviour (though going far beyond what I am willing to put into practice IRL) ; but immersion in the social and virtual space where I have the opportunity to live them, and the communities therein, including abiding to rules and practices making little sense from a RL viewpoint, is the key to the whole experience. I’d say both augmentation and immersion melt into a hybrid, one probably balanced differently form person to person, rather than that they are two separate approaches to the new world.
What better times are there to live in than interesting ones ? A century and half after the end of the age of discovery, a decade and half after the proclaimed end of history itself, we are suprised to find ourselves discovering and shaping a new world. A virgin one at that.
Always wish for interesting times, don’t you think ?
Rhata:
I couldn’t agree more – there are rarely dichotomies, in real or virtual worlds. I make the point about selecting your avatar name because of this very blurring. I think the point that Gwyneth makes that I support is that of initial INTENT, and then how that intent is projected to others (through groups, appearance, and where time is spent). Over time, a user’s experience in a virtual world shifts and blurs – the “strange loop” where immersion can lead to shifts in how we perceive the real, or how the augmentation of the real leads to immersion in environments and emotional landscapes we didn’t anticipate.
It’s useful to recognize that we probably lie on the continuum somewhere between the intent to immersion or augmentation. If my intention tends towards immersion, I can be highly offended by someone who asks questions about my real life. If I’m there because I’m augmenting RL interests, then I’m very likely to share e-mails, Facebook profiles, and other information about myself.
There’s no question the two blur. Using these categories are nice reminders in our interactions with others that their intent may not be the same as our own, and in particular this might be useful to a newcomer to synthetic worlds.
For myself, I’m with you – immersion gave way to augmentation gave way to different touch-points of immersion, and who can tell the difference anymore.
But the virtual and real aren’t that much different – I can be immersed in reading a book or going to a movie, and my life is always augmented by my actions and thoughts. Increasingly, these distinctions won’t need to be articulated they’ll be as second-nature (pardon the pun) as our real lives. I wouldn’t label myself a realist vs. an escapist, I’m both.
Arriving in SL, newcomers might find the labels useful to help focus their journey, although they’ll probably discover that however narrow they wish their focus to be, that there’s such a wealth of experiences that they’ll end up breaking through the boundaries of the intent because it will just be too interesting not to.
Now….if they’d add one of those pyramids that hover above your character in The Sims that turns from red to green as your happiness grows and shows little symbols in place of actually having to talk, they’d clean up selling to nightclubs.
On 01.04.08 Everest Piek said:
hey dummie…
didnt see that there was a possibility to leave comments. i hope ure good wherever ure now. we had pretty much fun and it was a hard smash when i heard u died…three smashes in a row, in what seemed only 2 weeks. that was too much.
i would remember to phoenix ripley and hart streeter too.
they were pretty good friends and i hope they all are watching us from above
Everest
On 01.05.08 BeauIndigo said:
I love the art
When Joey comes up I want you to show him your world that you have built. I have been trying to explain some of it…but it is better shown than told. You are so far ahead of the game. I know about 1% of what this entails!!! lol It is all evolving so rapidly. One wonders what the world will be like in 10 years…5 years?
Hi Dusan,
We made a video to show what is possible today in Microsoft VE using the Shape modeling application from 3DVIA. http://virtualearth.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!2BBC66E99FDCDB98!10172.entry
Combining custom built house models with the Microsoft VE terrain and cityscapes has some pretty interesting possibilities. [Of course, it would help a lot to have some trees ]
thanks for your informative post. I did not know about the Microsoft ESP inititative.
– Rodd
Really nice work…in many ways I think 3DVIA is the stealth candidate for VW development, mainly because its focus is more corporate and everyone loves to talk about Google. Thanks for the post Rodd.
nice. but all these issues where the same over a year ago when “SL or nothing” was the VR worlds mantra.;) by those paying for the “discovery” of vr worlds and 3d media as a platform wrapper.
Thanks for sharing these great ideas. I’m bookmarking this for future reference. Some of these I already do, so the point resonated most strongly with me. Keep feeding the creativity.
I am currently on holiday so, for this reason, I’ve nothing better to do than surf the web for shopping, lie around and update my blog. Well, more or less anyway.
Doug C
On 01.10.08 BeauIndigo said:
I once thought, as a child, that there must be an end to space. That when I looked above and saw the stars that beyond those stars there was a wall. Once you hit that wall you have come to the end of space.
I now realize, as an adult, that if there was a wall then that would mean there would have to be something on the other side of that wall. Thus, there was no end to space. There was no wall.
I watch this report and realize, as a child, that once again I am looking into space but realize this time that there will be no wall at the end of this space.
[...] Darüber hinaus werden interessante visuelle Charts wie z.B, das “Virtual Universe Landscape” von Fred Cavazza hervorgehoben. Alles in allem eine gute Quelle zur Kategorisierung von Online-Welten. [via Dusan Writer’s Metaverse] [...]
[...] I’ve also written that on a platform where the economy is not meant to be artificially constrained by the code (value inputs and outputs are not controlled or constrained by the platform owner as they are in MMORPGs, because they avoid artificially stimulating or depressing the economy through economic sinks (such as NPC vendors) and other gaming mechanisms) then it’s important that the currency be dependable. In the case of the Linden, the exchange rate is being artificially maintained by the Lindens, and although this isn’t a bad thing, the lack of detailed information on how thee exchange rate is maintained means that there is an invisible economic metric being hidden in the value of private island sales. I asked whether Metaplace would follow a similar approach to controlling the exchange rate of the Metabuck: Metabucks…and the Linden [...]
[...] and Dusan Writer discussed Edward Castronova’s contentions regarding the Magic Circle here and here. So, the concept is alive and well and discussed frequently in the serious gaming community. There [...]
[...] on the Grid-bank situation. It’s a touch opaque at times unless you give it a careful read, but it’s quite worthwhile. In summary, though, he reiterates the primary objections to the existence of unregulated [...]
[...] by observers as diverse as Benjamin Duranske, Prokofy Neva, Nobody Fugazi, Tateru Nino and Dusan Writer; dissenters have been few and in between, easily dismissed as either obvious lobbyists (for [...]
From: Virtually Blind Commentary: Top Five Virtual Law Analysis Fumbles Quote from the site – As virtual worlds continue suffering through legal growing pains, both mainstream press and the blogosphere are covering virtual law more often. There are a n…
On 01.14.08 marc said:
does it really matter if they hit that high? the average user for SL only stays on for roughly 12-15 minutes (I believe thats monthly, but ill have to go look it up again)
very interesting post! We think it is the 3D Social Web that is emerging. Immersive and inter-connected to existing web. In fact the Avatar will be the interface to all of it, from your PC, VoIP, TV and Mobile. Let’s see when the new pointing devices start to really roll-out.
Nonetheless, we are excited about future, but also think that Content will be king, just like when browser wars cleared and then content was the main event.
On 01.14.08 wayneporter said:
compare that to avg. stick time for a web session or web page…
Concurrency is hardly the objective of SL, and I’ve argued before that the most interesting ’stuff’ happening in SL is in the fields of academia, architecture, and corporate collaboration. It’s the 80/20 rule really – the greatest value being derived from SL may well be happening from the 160,000 of the 850,000 ‘regular’ users. Concurrency is one little dial on the dashboard and leads to the question of why it might be happening – as Wagner pointed out, positive press coverage in places like MSNBC.com which doesn’t treat Second Life as a novelty but rather a fact of the business landscape.
I also agree with Wayne. I’m no expert on Web site metrics but outside of social sites I’d guess that if an average Web site was able to say it had 24,000,000 user hours logged against it in the course of a month it would leave someone drooling.
I’m also no expert at reading the Second Life statistics tea leaves. I do know that numbers like the recent improvements to grid stability, increased island sales, and increased user hours when combined with a concurrency record are nice ticks in the right direction. I’m also of the mind that some of the most interesting stuff that will arise from SL will be the result of cross-platform projects that include time spent on blogs, Web sites, and in-world projects. SLoodle, for example, which allows development of courseware integrating in-world learning with the Moodle course platform.
A recent post that the US Department of Defense is using SL to train diplomats within a wider training program also suggests that there would be time “outside” SL that might easily be a lost metric – SL as an integral part of a Web-based toolkit of content is not reflected in user/hours or concurrency stats but may in fact have a deeper value in the long run.
That is, you don’t have to be IN world to be creating value for SL – and for many gaming platforms, they work hard to preclude out-of-world trading and other activities.
And I’m not sure what the latest stats are…(and I have loved Warcraft)…but for all the complaints about sim limits, I believe SL has long exceeded the total population that Warcraft can support on a given realm. 60,000 concurrent users on a realm of Warcraft would mean instant log-in failures – and that’s WITH the content taking 3 hours to load onto your own PC rather than being hosted, along with several billion user-generated items, by the platform provider.
Agreed Rightasrain! But not just the 3D social Web but the 3D Wiki world – collaborative, social, project teams coming together and then going their own way, education in your hand rather than a classroom, augmented reality, and all the attendant possible negatives of the above.
On the one hand, I wish that SL was a broad consumer platform and had delivered on the promise of a flood of new CSI-enticed users who were then led to explorations outside of the traditional expectations of a “game” platform. But really, the most interesting work in SL has been that it has created a collaborative, creative and dare I say craftsman culture – and the early pioneers are now being followed by quality companies and institutions who are thoughtful and not motivated by how many “hits” they get.
Rezzable is a shining example, to my mind, of building a community of practice – prototyping concepts of experience, interaction, but more than anything bringing skilled craftspeople together towards creating the shared capability of working together in a space where the traditional corporate models will have a hard time finding traction.
The argument that we’ve moved beyond information into the conceptual age has its pairing in the idea that while content is king, content will be nothing without the ability to shape its CONTEXT especially in environments where notions of context, identity, and value are still being shaped. Today’s brilliant thinkers and creators, today’s Rezzables, have been joined by the academics and corporate visionaries who will then continue to translate these prototypes into new models for how we create, distribute, and attribute value to content.
We are working on some new concepts focused more on unlocking creative energy in the more engaged SL builders. I hope this will be a step forward on user generate quality content…and not just tons more prim trash! Stay tuned and look forward to your comments!
I’m so glad you see the creepiness in Castronova’s definitely creepy arguments. It’s so necessary for more and more critics of this sole voice on the scene to come forward and challenge a lot of the really nasty consequences of this elitist ideology privileging game gods without checks and balances.
I frankly think we need to yell long and hard about economists-turned-ludologists who think games and worlds are a great way to tap into reptile-brain impulses in human beings and addict them to behaviours in games and worlds run by artificial intelligences that are in fact merely the tools of coders with oppressive and even totalitarian views. He’s far too supportive of these sorts of scenarios, and wants to take the medieval law of MMORGPs and push it into real life — where it was banished centuries ago with what we like to call “The Enlightenment”.
Marshall McLuhan said education would need to change due to the awesome impact of technology, or rather, traditional education was ineffective and would be chasing uneducable kids — but that was 40 years ago. The question isn’t to report on this anymore but to do something about it, and do something demonstrably effective, other than make some silly politically-correct “serious game”.
Ted’s idea was to have people get jobs the way they get quests, with little NPCs showing up to offer them jobs in real life if they could accomplish certain tasks. My God, as you say, who will do all this indulging of all these entitlement-happy freaks created by virtuality?!
I was so thrilled the first time I heard Castronova speak and take virtual economies seriously, speak of the naturally, say in 2004 that the only thing odd about his topic “virtual stock exchanges” was that in 20 years, the adjective “virtual” wouldn’t be tacked on; it would be just the way all stock exchanges were. And yet…now they are crumbling in Second Life as a victim of policy, not law, and fear of regulation, not the chasing of virtual worlds by real-life law enforcers, which he fears — and I guess he imagines he can create a realm strong enough to evade.
Castronova is also far too welded to game-games, not the games of worlds, or open-ended virtual 3-d platforms like Second Life. He just hasn’t had enough experience with it. It’s like…too much real life.
I think you have to be more than queasy about totalitarian wannabee game gods with experts like Castronova serving them — you have to be standing up and fighting.
I don’t want the values of MMORPGs — sychophantic fanboyz, toadying resmods and wizards, arrogant game devs, dismissive “code-as-law” and “information-wants-to-be-free” criminality to start holding sway over real life — and the culture already does in many areas.
What I do have to wonder about is the premise that such large portions of populations will “escape to virtual worlds” that there will be no one to run the factories and keep the electricity turned on. The reality is that as much as these games and worlds have booming populations, they also don’t have “everybody” like the Internet. Or they don’t have them 24/7. Or they don’t have them such that people all quit their day jobs and sit at home all day levelling up. In part because they are worlds that don’t really capture people’s imagination or effort, as they are those droning and dreary skill=grinding and war-fighting games that Ted loves.
And another important point: I think we can’t look at artificial intelligence as some kind of abstraction, some kind of “technology”. Artificial intelligence is a manifestation of an elitist movement in society that has the power to code, and code power over all in their realm. AI is an extension of rule, not something separate from it. It’s character isn’t ’science’; it’s nature is cultural and political. This is often overlooked, as people imagine AIs will only be helpful librarians at your elbow, and not bots blocking you from accessing content or expelling you from groups, which is what happens in Second Life. AIs don’t acquire purity because they are automatic; they are creatures of the coding elite, and it is shaped by a culture that is making you queasy.
I think what’s important about Castronova’s two books, which are indeed seminal in this field, is that they indicate serious study and the creation of a system of thought about virtuality. Now we need 100 other thoughts and systems and schools to spring up, too, so that this “early adapter” doesn’t hold sway without challenge. There’s no reason why we all have to live like orcs in WoW or avatars keeping our mouths shut in Linden townhalls.
It’s only because of the newness of this field that it is so bereft of any critical challenge to Castronova. So I have felt I had to make a special effort to criticize him very hard. I find him frankly unconvincing as an economist of virtuality if he dismisses SL so glibly. It’s appalling. I guess it’s too real or too complex for him.
>While the real world concert is taking place, participants in the virtual concert hall might be remixing songs on the fly, mashing the experience so that it is no longer a stand-alone event, but rather the source for a veritable flood of user-generated content.
Dusan, let’s just catch our breaths here for a moment.
I’m a big Second Lifer as you know. And real lifer, too! But the mash-ups are just not convincing.
I’d like for once for people to actually report on what people actually do with these mash-up thingies, rather than just get ecstatic about the idea of them. OK, we got it, it’s cool, people can look in a window and see avatars in a virtual world. Get the screen big enough, it’s a blast. They stare at the screen, then turn away and deal with people in real life. There’s some interaction, but…are they really doing all that fabulous user generating of content? Or are they just consuming in a more fractured manner?
People readily adapt to immersive virtuality and live in it as if it is real, in a very simple way, and the lower the level of education, they easier they do this, without thumb-sucking about reflexivity.
The architecture needs to have a comfort level that avatars can really live in, and not just gaze at, as art. The camera angles have to be good!
I don’t believe in these four truths, as the source of illusion isn’t greed, but hope. I also think there isn’t anything terribly fascinating or insightful about tracking avatars around on a sim, they’re like people, only a little clunkier until the technology gets better.
Virtuality and artificial intelligence are human artifacts, and bear all the markings of any human tool.
[...] This is an interesting pick-up from Castranova’s idea of an Exodus to Virtual Worlds, which I posted about last week. Castranova’s argument is that the “real world” had better learn about virtual [...]
Thanks Big A…will be worth exploring City Pixel. Looks like a social engine site…seems to be popping up a fair bit, leveraging the Facebook/social Web idea into virtual worlds. How does City Pixel work as a venue for education, corporate collaboration, simulation or explorations of new creative forms and visual rhetoric? (Save me a trip please! Or at least point in the direction of where I can find these things once I get there?)
[...] avatar’s experience than buildings that give good camera, in Prokofy Neva’s view, who recently outed me as part of the thumb-sucking set who have perhaps spent too much time ‘gazing’ and not [...]
[...] avatar’s experience than buildings that give good camera, in Prokofy Neva’s view, who recently outed me as part of the thumb-sucking set who have perhaps spent too much time ‘gazing’ and not [...]
[...] avatar’s experience than buildings that give good camera, in Prokofy Neva’s view, who recently outed me as part of the thumb-sucking set who have perhaps spent too much time ‘gazing’ and not [...]
Of course your post is on target as usual. While I am sure that Windlight + Havoc4 will raise the bar for online virtual worlds, issue still is attracting/converting new users.
We are going to try to do something here, but it would sure go a lot further if LL had a matching marketing program–ala intel inside.
LL is making some little effort here now with their new “Showcase” http://secondlife.com/showcase/. But not sure that gonna do too much. They would do a lot better with an email campaign to the 12 million people who signed up!
Simple things are too hard to deal with now. Simple example…it takes a ton of time to enter an Event. We all know events are key, but it takes 5 minutes to do something now…and no integration back out from Events to something like Google calendar or even RSS feed. While SL is a very open platform…events are trapped.
But LL is also trapped, they are still dazzled by virtual real estate and missing the point that residents–especially new residents–want to do fun stuff. They want to explore the virtual world and they want to meet people. And it’s not only about sex.
[...] there is this installation I just read about on Dusan Writer’s blog (link). Amazing!!! I haven’t seen this in-world yet, but will let you know what I [...]
A perfectly made point. If I’d dare to nitpick, I would however state that I find it pointless to hope for the Lindens to augment the beginner’s experience — simply because I suspect that SL’s burgeoning society has outgrown any concept they might have had of it long ago.
Their failure on elementary governance and customer support, the disastrous Teen Grid and the horrid orientation experience are just cases in point that His Majesty King Philip, for all his benign intentions, is sitting pretty far away on his throne, only very remotely aware what all those pesky colonists in the New World are up to…
By the way, one of the Colonists has come up with a nifty software bridge between the in-world event calendars and the widely accepted ICS format. Head over to the esteemed Ms Ordinal Malaprop’s box of tricks at http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/contents/ to grab the URLs.
I certainly hope Prokofy is wrong, and the virtual interface is more than just a clunky version of real life. yick!
Those who believe their avatar is a human being will always see the differences between the real and the virtual as a stumbling block on the path toward seamless replication of real life. But, those who can get beyond mere physical replication might begin to see those differences as opportunities.
If you could fly in real life, as easily as you can walk, wouldn’t you do it? If your body had an invisible camera you could place anywhere without moving your body, wouldn’t you use it? But, more importantly, wouldn’t you expect your built environment to evolve accordingly? If architects could easily program bricks or walls to be more intelligent and respond to our presence, wouldn’t we take advantage of that feature? Wouldn’t a new kind of architecture evolve, based on those new characteristics?
All we’re doing is designing within context. The context, in this case, happens to be a bit different than physical reality. I think its actually irresponsible to ignore that context and go on placating the lowest common denominator and mindlessly replicating physical reality – just because its easier, or more ‘comfortable’ in the short term. I appreciate traditional design and appropriate applications of physical replication in Second Life as much as anyone, but I also believe we’re all on a collective learning curve, and that there is enough room in the vast grid of Second Life for a few people to try out their ideas, and for others to write out their thoughts and observations about that work. There is nothing wrong with that.
But I really don’t think its appropriate to chase down and argue against those who try to understand or explore these new opportunities, calling them out as thumb-suckers. Granted, innovation isn’t for everyone – especially those who feel threatened by it, or don’t understand it, or don’t like it. That dichotomy is as old as time. But if anyone is sucking their thumbs – wouldn’t it be those who fear innovation, and go around demanding status quo?
Just a quick word on alts.
I use an alt to seperate the “normal” me who is pretty out there as far as identity profiling from a character for a specific setting. The example being that I created the alt account of Degan Blackadder sepcifically to be a villain in a fantasy RP setting. Why? Because honestly could you really believe a villain named Mace Maverick? >=)
Thanks Keystone. We’re having fun with the scripts by the way, can’t wait to show you some of the results.
In the meantime, please take note regarding thumb sucking, as I fear being pulled into a wider debate. I have nothing wrong with thumb sucking, and in fact some of my best friends are thumb suckers. Kind thanks.
This is a great post, Dusan, I’m glad to see people writing posts as long as mine, but here’s my immediate response:
“I am large; I contain simultitudes.” per Walt Whitman.
Seriously, this fear of alts, and hatred of changeable and mutating identities may go back very far and deeply to the folklore of all cultures, but let’s not be too precious here.
We seriously need an avatar rights movement to break free of coders, or at least to pit one set of more enlightened coders against the other more endarkened ones who are indeed recreating the Gulag Archiplego literatally and figuratively.
If I have a real-life enterprise for which I need the augmentation or tool of virtuality, I can easily get together in real life in person, by registered mail, by telephone, by email, by whatever, without having to burden the anonymous avatar realm with my needs. The needs are engendered by reality; they can be satisfied in reality without devising elaborate coders’ schemes to tie identity.
All your efforts to make alts come to naught if the coders have ways of tracking your IP, your log-on locations, various other identifying features of your “footprint” that they can process at fantastic speeds to block you everywhere. And that in turn can be used to block your purchases, rentals, sales, etc. in virtuality and truly hobble your expression and even your survival.
I always find it humorous that the technolibertarians are the first to make themselves anonymous, to use anonymizers, to be concerned about anyone tracking them, but then they whole-heartedly embrace — as a class — the most aggressive data-scraping that takes away the privacy of others.
Nick Yee does not understand Second Life; his research is faulty. He’s the guy who could claim that avatars have gazes, and that he can track their genders in this fashion. They don’t have gazes in SL. I’ve challenged him a number of times, but he’s one of those celebrities at Stanford that about whom it’s impossible to get anybody to do the most basic challenge.
I totally repudiate the reductionism and Darwinism implied in Yee’s concept that your avatar’s shape or height or whatever will change your behaviour. This is just old rewarmed Marxism (”the material affects consciouness”), or facile Myspacism, I don’t know which is worse. There are quite short and stout and ugly avatars all over the place, but they can command immense respect and authority — sometimes merely by having the last name “Linden”. An avatar can look like a jailbird, but if he has the last name “Millionsofus,” he’s golden. I’m sorry, but Nick is spouting facile nonsense, drawn from games, and not even a very deep take on games.
I’m glad you’ve marked the concept of “tribal” morality here, because that’s exactly what prevails in SL. Of course, there is very real grounds for fear of the changeable in SL, especially the gender-bending, because there is a small and persistent class of people — especially males — in online communities who delight in tormenting females by pretending to be female and lesbian and partnering with them, or finding real-life males and pretending they are females in RL — and causing a lot of emotional harm (and there are even a few females who crossgender and mislead others about their real lives, too, though it is less common).
This pain in communities has been so great that it has spawned a great deal of the thinking around avatar anonymity — there is nothing people fear and loathe more than the idea that the wrong gender is pairing with them.
Obviously I think people should be free to transgender, but I think they have crossed a moral boundary when they do not let a potential romantic (or even business) partner know their real gender, given how much this still means in the real world.
I’m not buying the concept of “therapy” if “therapeutic” means “I get to make an alt and grief others with harassment.”
There is a quotation from Ayn Rand, whom I normally dislike (I am definitely not a follower of her elitist and callous belief system), that makes sense to me:
“Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage’s whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men. Ayn Rand
However, I like to couple this saying with another quotation:
“When freedom does not have a purpose, when it does not wish to know anything about the rule of law engraved in the hearts of men and women, when it does not listen to the voice of conscience, it turns against humanity and society.” Pope John Paul II
I think you need a more subtle understanding of what it means to be “educated”. It’s not literally about the number of grades you completed in school. It’s about what level of sophistication you have in reflecting upon yourself in an environment, in taking a meta-level take.
The average joe with a high school education or some community college or trade school happily immerses in SL and finds a partner, a sex bed, a home, and goes happily at it. More intelligent, thoughtful, reflective types will write on their profiles that they aren’t available for such casual liasons; and they laughingly tell you that they’d never do anything so ridiculous as cavort on the pose balls. So I’m literally talking about the mediated architecture of sex furniture here, Dusan, if you will — where my point becomes graphic.
The ultra sophisticated will usually tell you that they “don’t need land to have fun” or “don’t understand why people have houses” or “why they have roofs when it’s not raining,” etc. etc. Ok, we got it, guys. Now dig deeper. So I’m glad you *are* digging deeper.
Ian Bogost isn’t really a persuasive reference for me, not to make a pun of it. I find his appallingly politically-correct game narrative a total bore, and frankly oppressive. The one on the fat Americans oppressing the rest of the starving world that he put out recently was especially atrocious. His art of persuasive is more of an orthodox ideological sect, that lock-steps you into coming to the same politically-correct views. These aren’t games; they aren’t even homilies; they are re-education camps. I loathe that.
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse The Place of Alts in Virtual Worlds and Second Life: Possession or Expression Quote from the site – Is having an ‘alt’ in Second Life a moral failing? Where does “Your [...]
Keystone, the minute you can stop making your living from Second Life, you will have a more sanguine view of all this. Until then, sure, you can dine out on the sheer aesthetics of it all.
Thumb-sucking isn’t about being infantile; the term “a thumbsucker” is newspaper newsroom jargon for “a long piece in which someone has a deep thought”. That’s all. You need not read into it some terrible dramatic commentary.
I find it fascistic that Keystone is now kow-towing to the Mau-Mauers and insisting that we aestheticize — or else! Or else we are *gasp* playing to the lowest common denominator!
As a rental agent, I can only *serve* my customers. And what they want is versimilitude, a comfort level for avatars, a certain kind of aesthetic, that will hardly be the politically-correct aesthetic that Keystone, as a professional architect would want, especially one trying to carve out some sort of whole neo-geo field with all this.
Keystone, what’s awful about what you write is that you imagine that if I serve the pedestrian customers’ need for low-brow builds and prefab architecture and date destinations, that I’m oppressing you with some imagined majority. But in Second Life, that is sheer and utter bullshit, because anyone can buy an island, and do what the hell they want on their island or continent –as you have done — and never fly around and see the tacky McMansions and Goth Castles of Second Life if they don’t wish to harm their eyeballs.
Nobody is stopping you from your “few ideas”. And your few ideas are…what? Recreating the Capitol Building of the US Congress *exactly as it is in real life*? Hello?
This stateement is truly beneath you, Keystone, as you know perfectly well that I give these issues a great deal of thought and do a great deal of reading on the subject:
“Granted, innovation isn’t for everyone – especially those who feel threatened by it, or don’t understand it, or don’t like it. That dichotomy is as old as time. But if anyone is sucking their thumbs – wouldn’t it be those who fear innovation, and go around demanding status quo?”
I don’t feel threatened by innovation — please cut the bullshit. What I *will* do is call innovation that is just as tacky and facile and reiterative as any kid’s fractal art exactly what it is. I don’t see that plains of blinking lights or geometric sculptures are even good art, let alone architecture. THAT is the debate. Frankly, it’s a debate I had about the winners of that contest — and I was surprised and pleased to see that Lordfly, whom surely you can respect as “one of your own,” even if a junior variety, had the exact same problems with: pretentiousness, overmathematical solutions, showy discomfort in the name of edginess, etc.
Nobody is demanding the Status Quo, Keystone, give it a break (um, Capitol Hill, anyone?!). I’m challenging pretentiousness, and facile crap, that’s all.
For example, this sort of hortatory lecture, from an anti-consumerist, pastoral, anti-capitalist sort of leftist ideology:
“to deconstruct visual media so that we understand how advertising, for example, uses images to persuade us to buy things we don’t need, or go places we don’t need to see, so too does it become incumbent on us to explore how virtual worlds and the objects within them can create a new rhetorical language the purpose of which is not to just make it easier to get into a shop or to maximize camera angles, but to persuade for other purposes as well.”
Um, why? Why do we have to ‘deconstruct” an ad and find this political evil underneath? Couldn’t we just interpret it as a company with a brand, that we may or may not click through, may or may not enjoy? Must we always play the victim of the leftwing view of the world, suppressed by evil corporations pinning us down with ads? couldn’t we just *like to shop* ???
Some new sort of virtual architecture inspires. It doesn’t have to have medieval or Cape Cod or quaint versimilitude to be comfortable; it can question cliches. There are great architects in SL who soar, who use the tools to the maximum, who create interesting spaces. But so often, even these very good ones, are making sculptural monuments to their own fanciful notion of themselves as being edgy, and it becomes very unpleasant after awhile to actually try to live in these artifacts.
It’s funny how, completely independently of Rezzable, using much less sophisticated tools (snapshots on my homegrown newsletter for my sims) I came up with the same conclusion today on my own blog: we are churning way too many sign-ups with far too little numbers retaining (we all knew that)– but worse, we are losing rapidly even those who retain, not logging on again after 60 days.
I know 10 games that I’ve tried and never gotten off the orientation island or first frames — WoW, Twinity, Guild Wars, Eve Online among many. Why? Because they were too hard too learn, not satisfying enough in their activities, too limited, or too complicated, too hot, or too cold. That’s life in the Metaverse.
But SL shouldn’t be like a hard first-person shooter game — it should be fun like Facebook and easy like Yahoo — at least, that’s what many people coming to it hope from it.
Like others, it took me 2 tries to get on SL and stay, and the second time was a very slow curve up about five months before I really got it to work for me.
A really big problem I’m seeing now in SL is vast hordes of newbies who don’t have money and don’t have direction, worse than ever. The intelligentsia of the various countries whose geeks have gotten into SL, and whose handful of creatives have gotten in, aren’t bringing in the rest of the educated classes. Only consumer-oriented people are coming, but they aren’t educated consumers, i.e. sophisticated in knowing what they can get out of a virtual world.
Second Life needs to be a leisure activity before it can become a labour activity, and for far too many people, SL is work — even camping and plucking money trees is like skill-grinding work, with little reward. People with disposable income and disposable time need to feel a huge rush, and a huge payoff from SL quickly and really get engaged — and they don’t. They need to feel they have social potential they don’t have in RL, or intellectual potential they don’t have in RL, and somehow SL is failing to give this to them rapidly enough.
Unlike Himoff, I don’t imagine some other competitor, even with an inferior platform, will take over from those who disengaged from SL because those people either went to Myspace or WoW or the mall — or back to listening to NPR or reading Slate. Until the thinking people in many countries are inspired to understand this SL simulation will be very valuable for real life prototyping, it will not succeed.
You’re absolutely right that grid stability means nothing. We froze and crashed on the Sims — that didn’t drive us to SL. What drove us to SL is that the most creative people among us got tired of the tools’ limitations and migrated, and we followed them. And then more ordinary consumer types followed simply because the world where they were seemed to have people lacking in interest.
Education is being touted as the next big thing, but it can only become that if it truly breaks down tradition and makes real schools without walls. If I can pay some low fee and take a real class. If I can actually full-fledged degree online with interactivity in SL. If I can audit a professor or have a round-table with other thinkers that really matters — if the university can really behave like the university, and not a Sears catalogue of purchases I make to credential me for my first job as so often it is in RL nowadays.
Lindens already worry far too much about newbies, Dusan. That’s the whole reason why they are so hobbled. They infantalize and therefore cripple newbies, sequestering them on islands and smothering them with Mentors. There is only one cure for this: opening up advertising to businesses and nonprofits. When people can find their interest cohorts, whether they be book clubs or dance clubs, through boards they can click on and teleport to, we will clear some of this hurdle. We need to find ways to make “home stays” which are the most important factor in absorbing any influx of migrants in any world — the people who can take on a newbie and mentor him not according to the company’s script, but by his own set of interests among his cohorts.
What’s happening now is the Lindens are farming out the care and feeding of newbies to their friends in various special corporations, and also letting their FIC-y mentors run the hubs. They should close down all the orientation stations as most of the content is not used or understood, and rework the entire thing as really a big party, a social gathering, a vivid, interactive search come alive, with tableaus, so to speak, displays, demonstrations, portals, ads for people to pick their interests and go to them — not as set-piece tutorials but with people.
The resident-made infohub concept should be expanded in lieu of these re-education labour camps on OIs that force avatars to learn to fly or drive vehicles when they could care less about driving, especially in a world with such rough sim crossings. Vehicle driving is one of the most minority activities in SL, and inflicting that on the newcomer is really torture.
Imagine, I’ve been in SL for 3 years, I made an alt, and couldn’t get off the damn OI myself because the system had grabbed me, hog-tied me, and put me on a track I couldn’t get out of to learn to fly at some sort of aviation tower that I couldn’t even find. Bleh. I finally picked my way through to the “get off the island” kiosk — which should be 16 m2 from the landing point, not located across and obstacle course!
I totally agree that the Lindens need to dump their fixation on early adapters and even mid-adapters. But…They’ve been obsessed about newbies as creatures that need to be swaddled and taught to script and build and drive laggy vehicles and dream of Havoc 4, however (a function of their orientation to early adapters).
We need to pry their hands off all this and find ways for various businesses, nonprofits, venues of various sorts to take the newbies with their affinities, and for the masses who can’t pick an affinity, to have a greater party-like socializing experience which they can then opt to leave to learn if they like, intead of forcing people to learn in a bootcamp before they socialize.
And when I say “party,” I don’t mean dance poles. I mean the wine and cheese party at your college after a poetry reading.
Virtual real estate satisfies a lot of people — it is the engine of SL’s growth, such as it is, to this date, whether any tekkie wants to admit it or not, or whether any “date destination” like the Rezzable sims wants to admit it or not. And virtual sex matters to a lot of people, and that’s fine.
But it’s not enough, because people need to make friends and make connections, and not only romantic ones. They can do this when there are more event hosts.
Event hosting is a thankless, impoverishing job. Those of us who have taken on this job know that it is an uphill struggle, and that even when the Lindens paid you, or even when the Sheep pays you, it is a slog, and it’s hard to expect it to be anything else. A lot of the success of Second Life has hinged upon the willingness of primarily female residents being willing to host people and hold their hands through orientation experiences. There is no substitute for the enormous amount of manpower needed for this job, the labour intensity, the diversity, the more sophisticated tools needed (better groups, more groups, less buggy groups).
People don’t like to just go and gaze passively at fabulous builds that leave them in awe, but have no place for them. They can sometimes have more fun on something simpler, and interactive, but more social.
The Showcase is a welcome development just because the Lindens are finally moving away from only feting scripters and their favourite designers and showing more diversity like live music or education or interesting venues. But they need to enable the community to constantly expand and refresh these pages, and currently, they are hostage to a funnelling through a few Lindens.
>LL is making some little effort here now with their new “Showcase” http://secondlife.com/showcase/. But not sure that gonna do too much. They would do a lot better with an email campaign to the 12 million people who signed up!
Says Himoff, whose Rezzable sims are *featured* in this Showcase (!). I think it’s too much to ask the Lindens also to email 12 million people for you. I think you need to do your own advertising in the audiences that you think could enjoy these sims.
Dusan, great post, very thought provoking and a lot to go on. Worth going back to read again, and dip into all the other references to.
Then I’ll work out perhaps what I should feel about my alt, as I have Heleno for work, and an alt not for work. Not that my alt gets up to anything outrageous but its an easier way to separate work and home. Funnily enough, it seems easier in the real world to do that.
Some people know both my identities, but they are people that I chose to share that with. Its not meant for any form of deception, and more for personal exploration whilst not limiting my virtual experiences for fear of jeopardising real life.
[...] Place of Alts in Second Life There is a really fascinating, and challenging, piece on Dusan Writer’s Metaverse blog today about the rights and wrongs, good and bad things, about having an alternative avatar in Second [...]
Your own experiences cannot be denied. Your thoughts cannot be denied, your perspective cannot be denied. This you know. Prokofy Neva vacillates according to what her mood is and she is never kind except to those she adores (how few they are). She rarely has an original thought and likes to tear into the thoughts of others who dare look at things differently.
Keep looking, observing and writing. What you do has value – if this were not true, Prokofy Neva wouldn’t be trying to tear you down.
I find it humorous that the Dispeptic Penguin has to stalk me here to a debate about aesthetics. I’m not the one who titled a post after some individual whose perfectly-normal comments about over-pontificating about art in SL were seized by Dusan and put into a whole blog post title. My word, such drama lol.
I don’t deny Dusan’s experiences, but I’m merely eager to affirm my own, so that we don’t get smothered under the horridly politically-correct aesthetics of the hour that we suffer under in real life.
I hardly think I’m a vacillater; I don’t play Second Life stock markets like Nobody.
Dusan writes snarkily, that I supposedly think SL is “nothing much more than a domain for human activity, with all the implied utilitarian needs such as good camera angles, good governance, and a robust real estate market, I can’t help wondering whether my attention span is too limited for immersive virtuality and that maybe I should switch back to lower-realm pursuits like Warcraft”
Uhmmm “a domain for human activity” is a very, very large canvas. What, there is something inhuman, or something ethereal about ourselves online? But I take the human being to be an ensouled body, I don’t create any sort of Manichean dissection between the meat-world typist and the meta-world consciousness invested in the avatar — they are integrated, and on a continuum.
Perhaps Dusan really does feel it differently, and that’s fine, but that’s hardly a reason to accuse me of attempting to dumb down SL to utilitarian needs for cybersex in suburban box houses.
Good governance, good camera angles, and a robust real estate market may seem like horribly mundane, tasteless, even philistine goals, but they are merely the substrate for the higher things in life to which Dusan aspires.
I don’t understand why we need to be *bludgeoned* by art or *sliced to ribbons* by architecture. Can’t we go on a sim, have an aesthetic experience like holding hands and singing and listening and watching Dizzy Banjo’s thingie, or the Twitter fountain, or whatever, and then *go home to our Frank Lloyd Wright prefabs on our landscaped sims?* I mean, must we live the life of a Bohemian, or even a starving artist living out of a trashcan with the hobos in Calletta, in order to appreciate art?
I don’t *substitute* good camera angles, good governance, and a robust real estate market (which drives the SL economy, like it or not, or I wouldn’t care; if it were widgets, I’d care about widgets but it’s not widgets) for art. I say “and this, too”. I say “and don’t impose the harshness of your cerebral aesthetic on my simulation”. And that’s more than fine. I’m allowed to do that and not be hopelessly cast down to the cheap seats with the hot buttery popcorn because in real life, I can appreciate art in museums; I can take part in artistic mashups and happenings and installations, but then I can *go home*.
And I don’t see why I can’t *go home* in a virtual world. In fact, as it happens, I don’t have a home. I’m actually one of those people who doesn’t feel any burning need for my flying avian avatar to have a human-like home with a roof over its head.
But I appreciate the creature needs of others who *do* want the roof. I think my thoughts here in fact are rather original. Dusan is joining the throngs of aesthetes who always take the edgy noveau thing and become enraptured by the sheer non-normalcy of it — Keystone, too, is entranced with spinning lights and prims — shiny!. I appreciate it but I don’t wish to be stampeded by it, just as they don’t wish to be stampeded by things they don’t have a comfort level with.
He takes the view that alts are primarily possessions…extensions in some limited way of who we are, but more within the context of our investment of time and attention in each of these alts. He proposes this doesn’t do anything to change that it’s still “all me” just different parts of me with different roles.
I propose that this would be true except that the code actually constrains our abilities to choose the manner in which these different roles can be expressed, which picks up on Prok’s points (more about after a good sleep )
If we view and describe avatars as possessions or ‘extensions’ of ourselves, as game worlds do in which their function is first the accomplishments of goals (no matter how slowly or with how much socializing you attain those goals) then we’re missing a larger question which is whether the code and the ‘policy authorities’ (platform owners but ALSO those in the world with us) are constricting our abilities to control our expression, and thus setting us up to buy into a morality without even realizing it’s being sold to us.
>The reality is that our bodies do not make part of it. Can a space which our bodies do not actually sense, feel and know, be called truly a human space
I realize you would like to be more metaphysical about this, but you can also look at it more practically. Your senses see a space rendered — and your senses actually do sense the space by sight and sound, and to a minor extent, touch (via the mouse). If something comes right at you, you might wince. If there is a loud noise, you might jump. So you are in a space, reacting, and being immersed, you have construed it, or constructed a working map of it, so to speak. I don’t see that this is all that different from coming into a real life room and taking in the space and navigating your way around it.
What a stunning coupling of quotations Prok, capturing in a few lines what would take me another novel to try to sum up. A few comments of my own in response if you’ll indulge me.
First, I don’t have any particular opinion about Yee’s research. I’m not very good at evaluating methodologies and so on, but intuitively some of his findings strike me as a little off the wall. His idea that people react spatially in SL like they do in RL is an example – he seems to claim that with people we don’t know, we tend not to look at them, staring away at other things, sort of denoting shyness and self-protection. I won’t dig into his methodology, but what I do know is that with AOs and different choices for where you hover your camera and perspective the idea of “look at” as a mechanism for measuring what we pay attention to is an odd one.
However, I will say that in game environments it does feel like it makes sense that our choice of avatars affects how we’re able to relate to others. Think of it like being in school and picking members of a team – I’m more likely to grab a human warrior than the gnome warrior, even if they have comparable skills…somehow a tall buff human commands more attention than the gnome, unless you start overlaying reputation (consider it a blinded trial). Therefore, if others react to us differently because of our avatars, then it seems to make some intuitive sense that we’d start to act differently too (or at least those of us who pick up on social cues because of insecurities or other reasons).
Not to bring Castranova into things, but he made the interesting observation that one of the appeals of gaming platforms is that everyone starts out at the bottom. In fact, social convention in games tends to discourage helping out the newbie other than peripherally, and certainly not in a way that would threaten equality of opportunity. The idea of everyone having the same starting point is preserved through social constructions and the code. Thus, the idea that buying a level 40 character in WoW is against many user’s ‘moral code’ because it bypasses equality of opportunity.
I’d argue that your choice of AV impacts the social dynamic you have with other people, but doesn’t negate your ability to command respect, Linden behind your name or not. Some people may dislike furrys, for example, but that doesn’t mean that a furry can’t be as revered as a human male, it just makes the path through the ‘lower levels’ different.
This on its own is a rich vein for study or reflection. When IBM joined the Linux community it was a newbie like everyone else, picking up the grunt code work, participating, and trying the best it could to shelve its corporate paternal instincts. You come to the game with bad hair and one of 8 pre-defined shapes – what you do with it is your own business, but we all start off in roughly the same place.
I think this speaks to a wider question, which is how reputation is established, which then brings us back to issues of identity, trust and anonymity. Mark Bell recently asked whether object camping was affecting the economy – kind of an odd question, I thought, as if gifts as part of camping were something new.
But I also think he missed the broader point, which is that I’d guess that the “real economy” is a mere sliver of the transactional economy. 10%? 5%? Giving gifts, sending someone a script, giving someone a vehicle – this is probably where most of the real ‘value’ in SL takes place and I’ve argued that we should look at SL like we’d look at open source or Wikipedia – economic value isn’t measured in those instances of value creation by how many ads are sold but rather how much content is created and shared.
In SL, the real estate market is a significant measure of growth or stagnation, and I don’t argue against its importance, but I’d also argue that there are invisible economies (or ones that aren’t measured) namely in the ‘out of world’ transactions and those in world where no Lindens change hands (the gift economy, which contributes to relationships, status, and the net value of the objects that have been created whether sold or not).
Which circles me back to the point that so long as we look ONLY at value creation as forms of possession, the longer we’ll be open to potentially being victimized by the code. It’s not just a question about whether assuming an alt is ‘deceptive’ to others, but it’s that the code first denies a wider range of choice, because while SL is an open world, our tools for construction of trust, transparency, and freedom from tracking by the platform owner have limitations. Second, and for whatever reasons, a tribal morality increasingly governs virtual worlds which is either a worrisome trend or an indication that perhaps we’re striving for a pre-rational way of engaging with society (intriguingly on a platform that by virtue of being code is completely rational even if not rationally constructed at times).
When I hear discussions of alts, they seem to revolve around “I needed an alt in order to be able to go somewhere/participate in something/etc” that I can’t do with my main, or “I need an alt because I want a personal and a business presence”.
The first seems to reaffirm the sense of a tribal morality, with people getting upset because someone is running off from their usual social circles under an alt identity…social pressure to “stay with the family”. I’m not sure whether this is good or bad, but SL is constructed mainly on the premise of a territorial morality. In a world that’s supposed to be about ‘your world, your imagination’ it seems a radical notion to put pressure on someone not to have 5 girlfriends or to be a Gor in the morning and a mom at night so long as they don’t directly intrude on others.
What I fear, however, is that people get lost in parsing personal dynamics and end up spending all their time talking about time and balance, and not enough time wondering whether the platform itself, through the restrictions built into the code, the lack of ability to assure privacy from code/IP/log and log-in information from the platform owners, and the inability to choose our level of information participation through identity toggles or other means is facilitating a social morality where groups in SL tend to ban together and discourage what is the promise of the platform – maximum choice, maximum protection from intrusion, and the ability to be anything and go anywhere without restriction or fear.
Thanks for the stimulating thoughts. In the interests of full disclosure, I did intend to sound snarky but it was really meant in a respectful way. And I mean that in the sense that I was hoping to draw attention to the continuum of meaning that we can draw from architecture in SL, and reflective architecture in particular.
In my original post, I made the point that a lot of building design in SL is crap. Doors on stores, closed roofs where maybe we don’t need one (a mall, for example), and “bad camera” highlight that at its most basic level there’s still lots of room for talent and effort in creating buildings we can live in. Also in the interests of full disclosure I’m an amateur builder myself – I make those houses that people *go home* to.
So it strikes me as odd that I’d be painted as having merely an interest in shiny prims, although I realize that in my post this is how I may have portrayed myself. Look – the stuff I make is all labeled “beach house” and “loft” and “prefab” and the ads include things like “menu-driven bed included”. Really, it’s not particularly good, but then I’m not an architect or a designer, I just like moving prims around. I make it because I like the idea of people being able to go home at night to something that maybe feels right for them, they have a roof over their head, they can click a button and the windows black out – good, practical, let’s live our SL lives well kind of stuff.
So on one end of the spectrum is the Neva Thumb Sucking test – and take that as a tribute: are we looking at buildings and architecture and drooling over it because it’s shiny looking or moves in neat ways, i.e. are we thumb sucking, or are we looking at whether we can live in it, be practical, and ‘get good camera’. Prok – goodness knows you have a wider range than just one end of this spectrum, but my deeper point about reflective architecture isn’t that the other end of the spectrum is art, but rather that it may be a conceptual form rather than a aesthetic one.
Maybe that’s my projection onto forms that are really nothing more than fancy math, ‘art for art’s sake’, or designed for the aesthetes. But I’m proposing that reflective architecture may be an early indicator not of its use as a form for building design, but rather its use in conceptual and procedural mapping.
Bogost is one of the driest, most irritating reads I’ve had in a long time, but I was still struck by his idea that 3D spaces may be a new rhetorical vehicle, adding to verbal and visual rhetoric. Agreed, we can create a “room” in RL that does neat stuff, attend artistic mash-ups, but it’s very difficult to pull off procedural exhibits in the real world…they tend to end up on kiosks or computer screens, don’t they?
(I also think this is why for all our talk about immersive virtuality that things will really start getting interesting when we see more and more augmented reality and the ability to integrate real and virtual spaces).
To give a corny, simple example of reflective architecture. In Project Bluegrass by IBM you’re assigned a “hut” (let’s face it, a crappy digital version of an office cubicle). Depending how much work you have on your plate, the grass around your hut is either short, or long. If it’s long and weedy, other people can see that you’re jammed up, if it’s short people can see that maybe you can take on more work.
Now, there’s no question this visual indication of work load can be accomplished in a lot of different ways. But as reflective architecture is starting to show us, 3D forms offer different approaches to how we can participate by presenting it in a space that’s constructed like we’re used to – namely 3D.
Here’s what I imagine: reflective architecture (and I would LOVE to insert the word “information” there, because I am NOT talking about building design) leads to a better understanding of how our avatar presence can be reacted to by information objects – objects that have their own procedural commands, which may imply its own procedural rhetoric.
This understanding leads to someone thinking about reflective (information) architecture as something that could apply, say, to generating cloud tags of the Second Life geography. These cloud tags are sim wide, 3D conceptual maps – intuitive, and responsive.
Users come and the cloud tag has words like Education, Sex, Scripting, Real Estate, Community – and as the user approaches the terms of interest, the cloud tag responds, and the words splice out, changing to REFLECT the user’s interest (indicated by their movement through the space). The user can click on one of the tag items and be teleported to, say, Midian City, or Caledon, or NASA.
Just one example – cloud tags, semantic Webs, project tasks, collaborative 3D Wikis…that’s what I mean by reflective architecture as being an eye-opener, not on whether it improves how we relate to “buildings”.
So if reflective architecture commands our ability to project future conceptual architectures, then I’d also say that in its current uses as a form of art it doesn’t merely entertain, but also highlights that it may be an indication of new forms of persuasion, and that from this vantage we should use it as a way to begin a discussion about whether immersive virtuality actually is a new persuasive media, or whether all of this is merely thumb-sucking.
Prok, your point is well taken that there’s no particular divide between meat world and meta world. And yeah, there’s enough ivory tower types deconstructing media as it is – frankly, I generally know when I’m being manipulated by media, and do so with consent sometimes when it’s done well (hello, Apple!) and don’t need a scholarly journal to tell me that.
I spend a lot of time telling people not IN virtual worlds that it’s the SAME thing – tell them not to think of it as somewhere else, or a different domain, or having different symbols or meanings.
On the other hand, I think that virtual worlds add a dimension (sorry) to the Web in the sense that they’re media where code allows us to interact with objects, and that in the hands of knowledgeable and talented creators, these objects can persuade us in ways that a TV ad can’t.
I may not want to LIVE in reflective architecture because it wouldn’t pass the thumb-sucking test. But that doesn’t mean I don’t want to look at it, because when I do I start to visualize new ways of presenting and interacting with information, the ability for this to be persuasive, and the potential that it won’t lead to a top selling beach house but it may be the source of new tools for conceptualization and information manipulation.
[...] virtual world literacy facilitating freedom, or quasi-religious indoctrination? On the heels of my previous post about alts, and the insightful commentary that followed from others, I ran across an intriguing [...]
[...] & Alts Add Dusan Writer has an excellent essay on alts in Second Life and I am reminded that I promised someone an essay on identity some time ago and [...]
Thanks so much for linking us to your response and thoughts. We couldn’t agree more that there is a need for bringing to surface the awareness that communication technology – like any other – is an extension of the choices we make. In particular there is no de-fault ethical setting encoded in virtual worlds. However – we do feel that the political imagination of emerging virtual generations will continue to make the most of the rhetoric of freedom of expression, creativity and friendship that circulates in that universe. This will, in turn, shape the direction of evolving technologies. The touchstone for this will of course always be that point of awareness. No escaping that. (By the way – we have never had a complaint so far about the the symbolic airoots background in our design. However thanks for your input!)
[...] Sculpt Tool/Lathe for Second Life January 27, 2008 — dusanwriter I recently touched on Archipelis as a possible option for creating sculpts for Second Life. For Second Life [...]
I’m glad I came across your blog and look forward to following your other thoughts and work. Must be my eyes – the text/background just made it a tough read…age, or too many hours in virtual spaces perhaps.
I know that my post sounded a bit gloomy but I think that since I’ve started to write this blog a few months ago I’ve been, and remain, optimistic about the opportunities for this technology. In fact, the previous sub-title of the blog was virtual worlds, creativity, and spirituality.
I agree that there are no default ethical ’settings’ to virtual worlds, but by virtue of being built they each have within them preconditions that may influence our ability to behave and to influence our ethical framework.
The issue of privacy, for example…on one platform, a surveillance society and on another anonymity to the exclusion of the ability to achieve identity trust. Either end of the spectrum colors our ability to make choices and I’m arguing that individuals (not ethicists, just ordinary ‘users’) begin to behave in specific virtual worlds within certain ethical frameworks because the platforms are built to encourage it.
On the one hand a lack of guarantees by platform owners that they’ll delete chat logs between users and on the other hand the New Yorker article this week (I don’t read or watch the news so I’m sure it isn’t newsworthy) of the girl who killed herself because a “boy” on mySpace harassed her. Anonymity allowed her next door neighbor to disguise herself as a boy.
In both cases, the coding of the platform leaves a different range of choices.
I am in complete agreement with your sentiment about “the political imagination of emerging virtual generations”. It’s not the emerging generations I’m worried about, frankly. It’s the political, corporate and societies who will be upending in their wake, a new age of collaborative creation in which hierarchies dissolve or reconfigure, and expression takes precedence over control.
Interesting times as they say, and I am optimistic because of the power these technologies bring towards furthering creativity and global friendships, and pessimistic that the response to change by the current ’stakeholders’ won’t bring with it new unforeseen risks to our liberty.
(Hey, anyone have a writ from the record companies I can post?)
[...] voice communications. My issue with a light client and Web-based interfaces to SL (see my post on Movable) is – well, you may not be in world but your avatar is, and tends to stand there slack-jawed or [...]
Oh yes – no denying there is a whole nest of vested interests stalking the virtual world and making the most of what it can control. There is a flatness to the commercial exploitation of the culture of friendship (technological controls and the whole format of Facebook for example) – and all the other issues you list. There is not enough narrativizing to produce a counter-discourse. Not enough mythologies. We can’t depend entirely on the goodwill of the emerging generation either. There is a huge need to be proactive. Airoots will soon launch an inter-active cyber-novel dealing with some of these issues. Can you suggest any links of other narrative-based, creative critiques that may help us?
Wow….mythology….stay tuned, post to follow on that very topic. None jump to mind but I’ll check my delicious links – there’s stuff on there I have forget I tagged. And keep us posted on the cyber-novel sounds wonderful.
On 01.27.08 Duder Pahute said:
I research synthetic environments on a nearly daily basis, and I just had to say that this is one of the most exciting developments I’ve seen – to say there are huge possbilities here would be an understatement. Thanks to Dusan for bringing it to our attention.
Nice work.
I appreciate your attempt to get at some of the complexities involved in virtual worlds and I think it’s crucial that we try hard to not split VW/RW into distinct (or semi-distinct) boundaries that encourage value judgments and hierarchy-making. But I think this notion of “freedom” that’s being worried and debated is a difficult word and space to grapple with, especially on the terms presented above. Does anyone really believe that there is anywhere to “opt out” to? Where would that be? I’m not suggesting that we’re inhabiting a totalizing 1984 universe–but I find it confusing and at times silly that people still believe that utopias are to be found in cyberspace. If they are, they’re momentary, provisional, and perpetually prey to colonization. Power is always on the move and we really can see this explicitly in cyberspace. Most of all I’m troubled by this distinction between our “business” identities and our “private” identities. This notion of a “private” self is as historically constructed as Anderson’s “imagined” communities and carries similar sets of contradictions, pleasures, disappointments, and abuses. I appreciate any and all efforts to keep the internet “free,” but I also believe we need to discard any notions of fixed destinations and “outsides.” Why do we have to leave anyhow? Why not attempt to transform the “inside”?
I should have mentioned that what I found most troubling/confusing in the above posts was this sentence:
“It’s the political, corporate and societies who will be upending in their wake, a new age of collaborative creation in which hierarchies dissolve or reconfigure, and expression takes precedence over control.”
Do you really believe that expression can be extracted from control and vice versa? Are they opposites/contraries?
Thanks for your insightful reply….I’ve opened up these notions mostly because I’m at the “know what I don’t know” stage…and as I’ve amply demonstrated, that usually means I’m not very coherent.
It’s my feeling that in virtual worlds, and in particular the growing availability of “open” worlds (like SL and as opposed to MMORPG), concepts of privacy and identity are often debated at a superficial level.
The reason this and my original posts were about alts was to highlight that we’re making value judgments about how we use our time and present ourselves in virtual worlds without thinking or articulating that these decisions are already constrained by the technology, the code, and the platform owners. Once we sign off on the TOS and the EULA, we are co-creating our in world presence with the platforms themselves, and by doing so accept but don’t always articulate that the restrictions on our choice have implications.
People talk about alts and use ideas like “different alts for different tasks” “business versus personal” and “needing some time for myself” and while all of these reasons can be perfectly valid, I stand by the idea that we only need to resort to these reasons because the code and the platform have constrained choice.
I’m sorry, but I work enough as it is, and I’d like the ability to turn off any work-related IMs after 9, say. But I can’t. So, it starts to look more and more attractive to have a separate avatar for the purposes of managing vendors and all the attendant IMs. This is as true in WoW as it is in SL – characters who act as banks, for example, help bypass the code which makes travel to markets a time investment, and act as sorting zones for group loot distribution.
But I’m trying very hard not confuse the issue here of identity with avatar expression. I’m making the argument that many are creating seemingly different versions of their ‘avatar identities’ in virtual worlds, which isn’t the same as saying that we HAVE different identities. They are doing so sometimes because the code leads them that way.
I am in full agreement and have argued in this blog on several occasions that there’s no split between real and virtual. Different expressions of our identity are parts of the whole, it’s just that the tools are different. Just as I might speak differently as a learner than a teacher, I might express myself in different ways in a virtual world through different presentations of my avatar and the spaces I interact with. However, my point about the separation of business/personal was again to highlight that the code leads us to behave in a way where it’s an incentive to start “splitting” our personas.
I’ve also argued previously that while it’s nice to think we’re fully integrated human beings, I’m not sure that the therapy business would be as successful as it is if it wasn’t for individual’s feelings that there’s “parts of themselves missing” or “things about themselves they need to explore”.
Your comment on the private self is interesting, however, and I’d like to understand that more, but whether it’s true or not that there’s no such thing as the private self, I can’t help thinking that people might confuse the desire for privacy with the need for a private self. The private self may be historically constructed…and if that’s true, then maybe my comments about the growing prevalence of a tribal morality in virtual worlds might also be a return to cultural norms in which social identity and identification dissolves the idea of the private?
I have a large number of friends who maintain separate online IDs….and not just for virtual worlds, but for mailing lists, Web-based forms, mySpace, etc. Whether their “private selves” are really illusions or not, I can’t say, these are all just intuitive ideas really…and the craving for protected private identity in an increasingly transparent and monitored world seems to be gaining rather than waning.
They would LIKE the ability to opt out of spaces within virtual worlds. I’m not saying opt out of worlds, but different spaces will have different levels of needs for what kind of information is collected, shared, and what levels of controls we have over our expression of ourselves and the information we share. I’m not arguing for an opt out/opt in for virtual worlds, but rather for the idea that it’s transparency rather than freedom that’s the end goal.
I may decide to attend a class in a virtual space, and when I sign up for the class I’d like to know whether I’m being graded, tracked, and whether my comments are being recorded. I may decide to attend a concert in a virtual space and I’d like to know the same thing. Transparency gives me the freedom to choose whether to participate and how – my decision is my own, but I don’t need to opt out and go “someplace else” – you’re right, there’s no “outside”, but there are rooms on the inside whose doors I may choose not to open.
Eben Moglen put it quite nicely when he said there should be two rules for virtual spaces:
One: Avatars ought to exist independent of any individual social contract put forward by any particular space. And two: Social contracts ought to be available in a machine readable form which allows the avatar projection intelligence to know exactly what the rules are and to allow you set effective guidelines about I don’t go to spaces where people don’t treat me in ways that I consider to be crucial in my treatment.
Finally…I take your point. Expression and control can not be extracted from each other. So I amend…
“It’s not the emerging generations I worry about. It’s the political, corporate and social groups (who have until now largely controlled the outlets of expression) that will be upending in their wake, a new age of collaborative creation in which hierarchies dissolve or reconfigure, and our right to have control over expression takes precedence over leaving it to others.”
Thanks for the lengthy and intelligent reply here, Dusan. I should admit right off the bat that I’m not much of a VW adept (by choice, I think) but I do own a computer and do use this computer for purposes where the RW elides with the VW (Myspace, Facebook, blogs, etc). But I have an ambivalent investment in most of these apps and typically integrate my RW identities as much as possible in to the VW ones (To illustrate your/my point about the difficulty in delineating a clear boundary line between VW/RW: What does one do with a Myspace profile that pretty accurately reflects the RW self, but at the same time, doesn’t?). The long and short of it: I have no serious investment in deliberate roleplaying within a controlled virtual environment. That being said, I am fascinated by subject-formation, especially within the context of this overarching public/private duality we tend to operate through. And I’m just now beginning to explore how subjectivity is built, remade, and often (to my disappointment) reinforced in VWs (the little I’ve seen of SL seems to simply reflect predictable RW lifestyles, though I have a feeling some deeper digging may complicate this observation–at least I hope so).
Your points about the limited terms of identity play are well-taken. If one goes into a VW with the hopes of articulating, exploring, and perhaps even embodying a multitude of identities or continuums along one vast identity path, one would be well-equipped in recognizing that one’s options are partially pre-determined by the world context entered (i.e. the program/app itself). This reinforces my point about freedom. Freedom is a useful formula if we’re constantly re-defining it. Constantly. If we leave off with half-baked feelgood rallying cries about the wide open future and re-configured hierarchies, emotions, relationships, etc. without recognizing how contradicted these things are from the getgo, I’m betting that the future will eventually look a lot like the present–and the past (I see parallels in the passionate rallying around Obama’s presidential run right now).
As for the public/private divide– again, your point about wanting a self at least tentatively free from the methodical eyes of the corporate/governmental realm makes absolute sense. However, as a somewhat inchoate closing suggestion–wouldn’t it be nice to begin to transform the business/official world so that the personal might operate and express itself more “freely” there? Utopic, I know. I know.
Yes, it would be nice. And utopic, perhaps….but at some point when I stumbled down whatever rabbit hole I’ve found myself in (and it’s as much about stuff in the ‘real’ as anywhere, but I won’t bore you with my personal life) I found myself adopting the following as a utopic vision for myself, although know I’ll never reach paradise:
We must become ignorant
Of all we’ve been taught,
And be, instead, bewildered.
Run from what’s profitable and comfortable
If you drink those liqueurs, you’ll spill
The spring waters of your real life.
Forget safety.
Live where you fear to live.
Destroy your reputation.
Be notorious.
I have tried prudent planning
Long enough, from now
On, I’ll live mad.
[...] open up its servers over the coming quarters towards “multiple grids by 2009″ (see my previous post) is driven at all by the accompanying mad rush of developers in all corners to open source other [...]
all true, good to see some lessons learned about 3d worlds and media… as well as some now ready to ask for reality, not fantasy from these tool and “service” providers. welcome;)_
BTW- we launched multiple PODBALL fileds this week, as well as a full RPG infocenter for the Starbase C3 world within SL. Over the last year weve slowly grown a totally original sci fi mmo community within SL based on our 2d/3d website of the same for many years.
So theres original stuff to do and to sponsor in SL for companies of all sizes. And maybe Linden and those who toss dollars at vr worlds will realize this is the only economy they have that can help pay for their services or tools. The future and past of immersive 3d rt has always been community entertainment or edutainment thats created by those who make content for end viewsers- not “pundits” , sounds alot like the Television/ cable and broadcast model ? Dont it.:)
c3
[...] rush to open up its servers over the coming quarters towards “multiple grids by 2009″ (see my previous post) is driven at all by the accompanying mad rush of developers in all corners to open source other [...]
Oooh, good stuff, Dusan! Costume balls, indeed. I don’t think that’s the issue. Second Life, or for that matter any virtual world – in the present or future – is and will be what we make of it.
Want to get real? There are already companies that will recreate your Real Self into an avatar. We use our voices. There is a section in our profiles where we can state as much information about Real Selves as we like. Universities and museums are recreating their hallowed buildings and campuses… but all this is on a very plastic level. What about virtual worlds as a tool? Distance learning, realtime global collaboration, using the grid as a blueprint for architecture and design and all sorts of platforms for progress that directly impact our Real Life.
Mostly, I believe this individual has not had even a glimmer of understanding of the psychological effect that being handed an inexpensive yet Super Powerful tool for creativity will have on global productivity.
There will always be naysayers and luddites, but I think this person’s concerns are pretty lame. For me, the real nail-bitters of moving into a 3D Internet are the CO2 consequences to the environment of all those servers, the social and anthropological consequences of people working in isolation (as social as virtual worlds are, you cannot smell a rose or shake hands), and then there’s the addiction factor… knowing when to stop… and stepping_away_from_the _computer, to run out and get some exercise and roses in your cheeks.
The next few years are going to be very interesting, aren’t they?
I couldn’t agree more Bettina…and just want to add that ignoring Second Life as a window for what to come also ignores its growing integration with the Web itself, and cross-over with the “real”.
Augmented reality, embedded Web objects in virtual environments (whether Croquet, or SL this spring, or Metaplace in April), and mixed reality events will just add to the soup. The metaverse is fast coming, (has arrived and is expanding) and those who want to chat in IRC about the coming plague of “costume-ball based worlds” will wake up one day to wonder why people found some things easier, more intuitive, and more engaging in the metaverse than they do on the “flat” Web.
The collaborative Web came courtesy of Wikipedia. The social Web comes courtesy of Facebook and its predecessors and followers. Open source arrived with Linux. And 3D environments will be an alternative bridge across these concepts, societies, maps, tools – call them what you will.
And it will bring with it intuitive ways to view and interact with information (reams and reams of it), powerful vehicles for self-expression (see my earlier post on the emotive avatar article in Harvard Business Review) and collaborative work environments where we can “see” a project/corporation/vision – hierarchy gone, feminine corporation arrives, the role of the craftsperson celebrated.
And, um…well, not sure where that leaves IRC.
And finally…one of the greatest challenges, I think, for the early pioneers of these spaces is to articulate that the virtual does not replace the real, and to help translate the recursiveness of virtual worlds in a way that betters us as individuals and societies and yes, that includes roses in your cheeks.
[...] of the civil liberties discussion in Second Life with Philip Linden, in which all my lengthy posts here and here on alts, tribal morality, and whether our ability to make choices is really as open as we [...]
On 02.01.08 Caleb Antwerp said:
you may pay your respects at Landmark:
Memories cemetery park — BOCH , ( 3 , 123 , 21 )
or you can search it in your second life search.
On 02.01.08 Kris Spade said:
In loving memory of Dummie Beck. You will never be forgotten. You touched so many hearts in SL, and let us all realize how short life can really be. Since your passing I’ve grown to cherish every moment I get to spend with my friends in SL — you allowed us all to realize that SL is not just a video game, or a glorified chat program, but another extension of life where friendship and love flourish. You will be missed.
per you point on bringing in different target markets by integrating 3DS and Maya: Having been part of the architectural community (RL Architects in SL, Studio Wikitecture) for a number of years now, i can say without hesitation if seamless import/export functionality were incorporated, there would be a huge influx of this demographic into SL. If i was given a dime for every time someone asked me if they could import their models, I’d be able to create my own virtual world.
Agreed Ryan. The limitation of course is that as soon as true interoperability is provided, the instant the in world economy is thrown out of whack. How could the current houses, prefabs, offices, and furniture market survive if you could easily import objects created with the more advanced tools, fully textured and baked, not to mention warehouses of current objects from the poser/blender/daz3D communities flooding into SL?
The current work-arounds at least place a time premium on converting objects that already exist, or require creating objects from scratch using SL plug-ins, thus maintaining the economy.
One idea, that I’ve voiced elsewhere, is that when they open up the architecture maybe they include this interoperability which private servers/islands can toggle on and off, much as the Grid will have different client and perhaps physics versions running as well. Current land and economies would thus be protected but architects and designers would be able to set up their own areas in which to accomplish what you’re talking about, which is to tap into the more sophisticated tool sets available out of world, and thus be able to more rapidly prototype.
Other grids and platforms are taking this weakness of SL’s and turning it to their advantage – being able to import Google SketchUp, or OBJ files, etc., but their economies are being structured in an entirely different way, often not based on in world exchanges but rather full integration into the “Web” (Scenecaster being a good example of this).
None of which negates my point – bridging can become a valuable service, and Linden should facilitate a step-by-step approach which maybe isn’t true interoperability, which places a time investment on importing objects so as not to undermine the economy, and which trains groups like architects on how to maximize the platform and not solely leave it in the hands of The Arch and others.
Other grids will be set up for the purposes of architectural walk-throughs for RL clients. But they’re unlikely to offer the sophisticated scripting and economic environment of SL.
For every future project different virtual worlds will compete for revenue and attention. SL needs to do a better job explaining what it IS good for, (collaboration, exploration, research, but maybe NOT full architectural prototyping in the short term just as it’s not a game engine either) and then facilitate the ability for users to maximize those particular features and benefits.
[...] Second Life Users Have Too Much Time On Their Hands: Philip Rosedale Quote from the site – Philip Rosedale tells Der Spiegel online that “The early users of Second [...]
Once there is real interoperability, who would want to turn it off? Would you want to make your web page such that the user couldn’t click on another link while on the page?
I see the bigger question being one of intellectual property protection. In some sense, the genie is already out of the bottle, but reputable virtual world providers will have to provide some kind of protection against blatant rip-off.
In the end, I believe interoperability is about logging into your preferred avatar provider, and then navigating through a shared, interconnected world, using that avatar. This allows different VW providers to provide different price points on the cost/value chain, similar to how e-mail servers serve different users in different ways.
Hopefully we can find some way to avoid spam, though :-/
if you have a look in the forums you will find that windlight is available to openlife grid users there is a login for it there
and i can say that there are some places ive seen there that look better then the pics you have shown here of secondlife.ill place a link to the part of the blog here. http://www.openlifegrid.com/Forums/Messages.aspx?ThreadID=201 have fun i hope to see you round the openlife some time p.s (its best to set draw distance to 512)
ciao i hope you take another look
Jon, what is your basis for assuming that people want and need to have interoperability mean that their avatars can walk between worlds? Many people don’t have a problem keeping multiple avatars in multiple games and worlds. They like it that way, in fact.
Everything important about interoperability is about intellectual property. And because no one has a good way to protect it, that’s why interoperability isn’t needed in the burning way that you imagine.
Dusan, I realize, too, that this dream of Maya and working offline and all the rest is held by a tiny handful of geeks. But most people using SL don’t care. Eventually, if SL doesn’t supply this, some other platform like Multiverse will — and what of it? It won’t speak to the needs of the majority of users, who need creation of content not to be the property of a specialized few using complex utilities like Maya, but need it to be user-friendly and available to all on a continuum of ability.
More sophisticated tool sets are alright in their way, but if they can’t interact with the rest of the world, what good is it? A perfectly rendered Taj Mahal just sits there like a postcard.
There is nothing wrong with being a walled garden; people enjoy the protection and *the civility* of walled gardens.
[...] State University 3D Models from Still Photos » This Summary is from an article posted at Dusan Writer’s Metaverse on Sunday, February 03, 2008 [...]
I will take another look! In fact, I have, and intend to keep up my visits. Sorry if I implied that it wasn’t worth a visit. Reality was I loved it….it was laggy, but yes, might have been my draw distance, might have been on with too many others, and I imagine over time it can only get even better.
My comment about it being like pre-banner Mainland is the ultimate compliment!
(I wasn’t aware of Windlight, thanks for the tip!)
External programs are becoming cheaper, more accessible, and as a result are generating huge libraries of beautiful, “user-generated” content.
These programs are no longer just confined to hugely expensive platforms like Maya and 3DS. It’s not just architects who are creating buildings, it’s someone at home creating the perfect cottage, or the most stunning bicycle. Because these objects are increasingly portable between programs, and because they’re spawning amateur/”user-generated” content, then at some point users will be attracted to the idea of porting those pieces of content to virtual worlds, and in some cases already can.
It’s not the specialized few who will have the deepest long-term interest in interoperability, it’s the non-specialized many. I may not be the best builder in SL, but I have fun with it, and then I hit a wall…I want to sculpt, I’d love to properly render lights in the build, or I want to create a custom animation. What happens (or happened to me) is I cross out from SL to try to build on what I’ve learned and discover a whole other world out there of software, different ways to build, and different ways to express myself. But I can’t bring most of it back….and so, some day, I find a platform that WILL allow that and maybe I go there instead.
Yes, I do believe that the “pros” will find their own homes with true interoperability so they can throw together 3D walk-throughs of a building design in a virtual world. I also believe that this capacity should be built into SL….because they’re not the only ones who would like to see their work on other platform brought into a virtual world.
IF SL doesn’t do it, someone else will…and that someone else won’t be creating interoperability to satisfy a few architects, they’ll be doing it to tap into an ever-growing community of SketchUp, Daz3D, Poser and other artists who are doing it for the sheer joy of it – kind of like what SL has been.
I’d like to protect the garden. I’d like to make sure that if SL expands its reach into other creative communities that it doesn’t do so at the expense of the economy (in objects, time, real estate, etc).
My issue with the walled garden isn’t that the garden shouldn’t be walled, it’s that its boundaries shouldn’t remain static. The issue of interoperability is a question about whether to shift the garden’s boundaries and cultivate new soil.
I’m not sure my idea of ‘walls within walls’ works, it’s just an idea.
What I am sure of is that Second Life does not have a lock on content that’s “user friendly and available to all”. This is the very premise, for example, of Metaplace and will be the premise of platforms to follow, none of which is worrying particularly about the architects, but *are* worried about being able to tap into the widest available tool sets being used by the ‘non-professional creators’.
As Prok says:
“More sophisticated tool sets are alright in their way, but if they can’t interact with the rest of the world, what good is it? A perfectly rendered Taj Mahal just sits there like a postcard.”
Now…replace “more sophisticated tool sets” with “Second Life” and that’s the argument I’m making:
“Second Life is all right in its way, but if it can’t interact with the rest of the world, what good is it? And in Second Life, the Taj Mahal that sits there like a postcard isn’t even perfectly rendered.”
[...] about Second Life from…Google? February 5, 2008 — dusanwriter Linden Labs is worried that the competition may have learned from its mistakes. In the meantime, it’s by way of [...]
Prok’s comments are business as usual – same hatred towards geeks and hackers, growing on soil of own software creation impotence and feeling insecure in world where everyone and his dog can pull the carpet from under his presumably almighty all-things-shall-be-Proks-way-or-go-off. Prok, please, get a life, stop whining – you can’t stop change in software world. Just get used to it – resistance is futile, all your bases belong to us
I’ve been pondering the import/export problem. I think that there may be a way to do this with LSL… I need time to toy with it, but the general idea is that a script can tell the dimensions of a prim, as well as the textures on it.
the trouble will be… (1) scripts won’t be able to be sent, (2) texture UUIDs might be considered a bypass of the inworld permissions system (see http://www.your2ndplace.com/node/889 ).
Then, (3) – converting abscissa,ordinal and azimuth plus dimensions to a format another application can read. I haven’t looked into this… I’d expect someone has a CSV format, but… with all the proprietary data formats out there, it is hard to say. Still… it could be a base for rezzing stuff on an OpenSim simulator.
The question is whether or not it is as efficient as hacking a client bot to do the same. But then we get into bypassing the de facto DRM, which can be very problematic from a legal standpoint.
It has a plug-in for Maya which includes a little side bar with standard SL prims. You can texture them using textures from the SL library and as I understand it, if you can figure out how to work the script within Maya you can also load additional textures of your own and just code in the UUIDs. You then rez a ‘build prim’ in SL which rezzes the full build (as many prims as included, up to a full sim’s worth they say) including the textures and placements.
Now, it’s wonderful, but it’s Maya specific. I assume the other work-arounds are program specific such as a work-around I saw for importing Google SketchUps.
I wonder whether what’s needed is a bridge to Collada? Seems to me most game engines and so on have a Collada import function.
If you could build a bridge from SL to Collada, then you’d have a bridge from Collada to most third party applications. You’ll always run into the texture UUID issue, but I’ve been working with someone to see if there isn’t an automated way to upload textures and then collect the UUIDs.
I know with sculpts that they recommend loading your sculpts directly to the library rather than through the “upload texture” feature, so seems to me there’s a way to connect to the database outside the viewer.
Complex problem! And as I say, this isn’t my area, just sharing a few of the tools I’ve run across and little bits and pieces.
I believe you’re right, Dusan. And as far as Prok’s comment – well, no, they haven’t… but they have been providing services for a streaming 3-D interactive world for as long as they existed – enough so for Microsoft to try to eat Yahoo. You could argue it isn’t the same, and likely you will, but you’ll note Linden Lab implemented… Google Search. Not rocket science to connect the dots.
Naw, Prok is right Taran. There’s nothing to learn from a company that hasn’t launched a streaming 3-D interactive world so I retract my recommendation.
Linden doesn’t need to learn about managing large, complex, systems that require diabolically clever engineering and strategies in order to both serve the globe and millions of concurrent users and terrabytes of data yet avoid lag and crashes.
Linden has nothing to learn about how to move beyond a mentality of being a virtual world ISP from Google, which moved beyond the mentality of being a search appliance to think more creatively about what business it was in and develop business models that have upended traditional advertising.
Linden has nothing to learn about how to sandbox new features, roll them out effectively, modify them based on user feedback, kill the ones that don’t work, and yet do it in a way that doesn’t add new bugs, user adoption issues, or create instability in its main grid, er, brand.
Linden has nothing to learn about how to create a work environment that’s the envy of half the planet, that attracts some of the brightest talent, and that retains its top staff or, when it loses its top technical talent, doesn’t create a firestorm of concern or bad press.
Linden has nothing to learn about how to effectively manage expectations for future performance, whether financial or service-specific, thus earning increased value for its shareholders and users in spite of flying in the face of conventional wisdom on needing “spin” and lots of chest thumping about Windlight, er, Google docs.
Linden has nothing to learn from a company that has proven itself effective at doing community outreach, partnering, research, publishing, advocating, and communicating even when it is entering business domains where it clearly intends to upend entire industries.
Linden has nothing to learn from a company that started as a few guys and some code and grew to become a synonym with simple and effective user experiences, a verb, and a bunch of zeros.
Linden has nothing to learn from Google because Prok’s right, they haven’t built a streaming 3-D interactive world.
[...] sat forgotten in the back room of the blog. Now I submit it to you for your approval: a link to a machinima called Noob. If you enjoy it, come on back and let me know; I got a few giggles from [...]
Well, this game was made in havok1, and will works better in havok1, in havok four however, the marbles run so much smoother, and you don’t get a random ‘bounce’ from time to time, but with the immaturity of havok4 at the moment, it has some bugs, but is still very playable, sculptis still have a spherical bounding box (Linden Labs will not have mesh for collision, because they do not wanna load the images for the sculpits server-side), but with havok4 however, I can add alot more moving things, with alot more players with less lag…
[...] innovation about far more than just making money? (Would training and rehearsal count? What about collaboration, recruitment, developer relations, [...]
Wonderful stuff Moy! We’re running some simulations using Havok4 as well…nothing half as fancy, really just toying with some scripts and seeing what the physics engine does deep down inside. And absolutely on lag – almost impossible to crash a sim but we’ve done it! hehe
wildcat days of the 1980s? lol
check out the chase /capitalone/ bank of amercia credit card interest and fee scams of “lowering rates” as they raise them that was just on the ABC nightly news tonight.
but really any of you university folks realize yet that the “made in china” VR logo is the end of your western pulpits to pundit from?
all vr activities will be the equal to watching “american idol” 3 times a week, and all governments relegated to who feeds the slop and cleans up the poop from under the “batteries” of humans plugged into the creative machine of fantasy thats basically the TV to Walmart connection of today, but all played out as pixels vs flesh..
the reality of the virtual…promoted by the ignorance of the new. encouraged by the myth of the victim
Thanks Liv for the comment….and apologies for the note format of my comments which were done live on site. So a few additional bullets to put Dave’s comments in context:
- He was making the points that a bank is solely defined as such because of the regulations that allow its existence
- Therefore, unregulated institutions in SL were never banks in the first place
- Which is unfortunate, because it would have been interesting to see whether the social setting would have ended up self-regulating.
- BECAUSE, as he pointed out, let’s face it, even the real world has proven that regulation doesn’t make a bank a necessarily honest institution, and their use of loopholes such as in the wildcat days are proof of that, recently with sub-prime, and even loopholes around checking accounts.
Finally, I won’t comment on university folks. Some of them are very interesting, passionate, and committed to finding social good from virtual worlds. There was a great deal of discussion, for example, about whether virtual environments are useful for people who are disabled, who have mental disorders, etc. Social phobias, aspergers, demonstrations of schizophrenia for the purposes of creating empathy amongst healthcare professionals were a few of the topics they touched on as far as the real life benefits of virtual worlds.
It’s also interesting that you bring up the entertainment paradigm, because the mixed reality part of the conference included attendance by the CEO of Kaneva who is creating a “light version” of what you describe – he painted a picture of virtual worlds as being constant sources of entertainment, with links to TV shows, in world games and contests. However, when he was asked “what happens when people get bored of being entertained” his response was basically “we’ll entertain them MORE”…the extension of which is the more apocalyptic version that you lay out.
One of the things that continues to strike me, as it did today with the academics, was a carelessness around definitions of the metaverse. Virtual worlds continue to be painted as “places”. And while virtual spaces can often look like places, it’s a narrow definition of persistent, simulated computer environments in which multiple people can participate. When viewed from that broader context, metaverse applications of the future will include a range of utilities, applications, communities, and tools that augment reality, mirror it, and are escaped to from it.
Very intelligent discussions around the privacy and control issues that arise, including corporate control and, as you pointed out, the unseen power of Asia and China with their massive virtual communities, may well become the leading issues around trust, identity and privacy in the years ahead. These issues apply equally to Web 2.0.
I have no idea what you mean by “encouraged by the myth of the victim” or “promoted by the ignorance of the new”…I fear my brief notes made it sound like the participants were ignorant to the peril of virtual worlds, which they clearly were not.
And to add one final point of clarification, I am not a “university folk”, I never graduated, and never will. For me, and this isn’t true for everyone, life was a sufficient academy.
“Regulation” of a financial firm is not what makes something a “bank.” Back in the early days of the United States there were many many unregulated institutions, especially in the “Frontier States” which called themselves and were considered banks. SL is in a state a lot like the USA was several hundred years ago. Unfortunately, SL is now becoming more and more regulated and mundane, and is becoming more and more like our real lives in most western countries. Pretty soon we’ll all need a virtual world to escape from our current virtual worlds…
[...] others with a vision, enable them with tools, and make them feel engaged in a… source: Learning about Second Life from…Google?, Dusan Writer’s [...]
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse 50,000L Bug/Insect Making Competition Quote from the site – I’m looking for bugs. Insects, spiders, creepy crawlys, little flying [...]
On 02.16.08 Nick H. said:
I love ManagedQ. It gives you such an awesome sense of the search results.
I downloaded the toolbar and have converted all my searches over to the Q. They’re definitely the future. I highly recommend everybody try them out.
Let’s hope they break up the Google monopoly.
On 02.17.08 Tami said:
ManagedQ is awesome. Their UI is def. addictive. Google has been the same for 8 years so I’m ready for the change. Also, the NLP/search within search feature on the left (”executive summaries”) is really helping me to get to core of my search faster. It’s worth checking out.
As I pointed out on the CIO web site I don’t get this. I see two distinct activities: simulation and virtual worlds. I understand that the technology that drives Second Life or World of Warcraft could be adopted to create virtual spaces for business interactions. What I don’t get is the point. The calling card for Second Life is that you can be whoever you want to be. Since its your “second” life I would assume most people don’t choose to be themselves. So what is the point in a business context? That I can enter a virtual world and tell my boss what I really think of him/her?
I play WOW and its great fun but I don’t see how interacting with my business associates in playland rather than realland would be an advantage.
Liv, we humans will always need to consume. Or do you wish to go back to having to own a piece of land and trade sheep for potatoes waiting for the next famine to happen?
And Dusan, I love your idea, and hereby I rase the paw to play one of the noobs! (Can I be avatar one, pretty please? I don’t think I feel comfortable with to much lines!)
On 02.19.08 kari said:
I love the user-friendly interface. ManagedQ has really taken search up a notch and the NLP is very sopishticated. I’m definately converting.
I love it as well. It’s still a bit unclear from the reviews and the blog itself what the engine is that’s driving the results. I’m under the impression that it adds a layer to the Google search results…adding the interface, pictures, and ability to then further refine your search.
I tested a few searches and most of them seem to return the same (or nearly the same) search results as Google itself. Maybe it then also stores user click-throughs and ‘management’ of results and then refines future searches based on that, but my distinct impression is that it currently uses Google as the source of returning results.
Really good question and if I had the single magic bullet answer perhaps I’d either be wealthy or watching wealthy people and wishing I had implemented my great idea.
However, I can only share a few experiences and observations from my own real life experiences using VWs:
1) Many participants in SL are not hiding behind a veil – especially in the education and business community. Therefore, participants in business collaboration or education are not hiding behind a veil of anonymity.
2) For dispersed teams, virtual worlds can offer the benefits of conference calls, Web conferences, Skype, etc. but with the added benefit of presence. I’m not just supporting SL here, but have been astounded what a difference it makes holding meetings in Qwak or SL as compared to conference calls, Web casts, etc.
You really do have a sense of being ‘present’ with others, and the tools allow you to rapidly pull up documents, presentations and other materials which others can then mark up, append, or supplement with their own materials.
3) Aside from overcoming the distance that collaboration often leads to (after all, true collaboration would say that the world is a potential partner), 3D spaces also provide a different way to contextualize, view, discuss, and change artefacts that represent concepts, projects, process, or work flow. While the technology is still in a somewhat early stages, projects like the architecture WIKI and in particular the early demos of Project Bluegrass from IBM clearly show that there is something very different about using a 3D space for certain types of activities.
Already, businesses benefit from things like contextual voting, prototyping, and team building.
Imagine a complex project where decision points can branch and time/cost/quality considerations need to be mulled over, or commented on in an asynchronous way, or by a dispersed team. This can be done in what I SOMETIMES find to be a more intuitive way in a 3D space, as compared for example to a complex 2D Gantt chart.
4) Engagement. You enjoy WOW. People enjoy games. Business is serious stuff – but why? It’s increasingly being proposed that virtual worlds and game environments could be a new model for work. For example, the National Academy of Science is working with the Institute for the Future on a “Massively Multiplayer Science” initiative called the X2 Project which will act as a platform for scientific collaboration. It is a Warcraft for science geeks, who will use a virtual world platform to stimulate opinion, form collaborations, and solve problems.
I’m not sure what industry you’re in, but virtual worlds offer one way in which ideas, people, concepts and collaborations can be encouraged outside a company’s walls. While Web 2.0 social networking concepts are driving innovations like a “Facebook for the CIA”, virtual worlds are another toolkit that helps companies to create new ways to engage.
In some ways I think you answered your own question – spaces like Second Life “could be adopted…for business”. It’s not a *could be* question. Second Life IS being used by businesses, ranging from Sun and IBM to architects in Texas to urban planners in Brooklyn to NASA. The reasons are many and like any technology should suit the business need and strategy rather than be adopted as is.
As economists and others have pointed out, the sooner we toss the idea that virtual worlds are somewhere “different” the faster we’ll come to grips with the fact that in many ways they offer an addition to real life process just like a phone does or e-mail, and perhaps over time a far more compelling one at that.
Virtual worlds as they are today are labs for a future in which the metaverse will be everywhere. Companies who want to understand the future can do so. Others who prefer to wait can do so as well, but I’d propose that its at their own risk.
For some people, Second Life is that – an escape, a place to play, an immersion experience where they can be what they want to be.
But for a growing number of users Second Life is an EXTENSION to their real lives, they are transparent with identity, and they are there because they’re working, collaborating, creating new models for sharing concepts and ideas, forging partnerships, identifying talent, or holding virtual meetings in place of real ones when time or cost are a consideration.
Some are also there because they are reaping the benefits of an intelligent creative community that has perhaps learned more about collaboration in its few short years than Wikipedia which, really, is one application for many participants, while SL represents as many applications as there are participants. And those reaping the benefits and insights today – well, I guess each one of them will have the chance to understand the potential of a technology that is fast becoming ubiquitous or hold on until later and catch up when others have forged ahead.
Look at my grandparents after all. They just got e-mail, and they’ve survived OK without it until now.
To answer your specific question directly I have been in the computer business since it was called “tabulating” > DP > EDP> IT > ???? and IBM was called “International Business Machines” (Of course if you only needed domestic business machines you could use one of the “bunch” companies)
Perhaps after 40 years of hype of the “next great thing” I find myself reticent when the media hype seems to exceed the delivered benefit. To your specific points:
Yes, a three dimensional universe can be more familiar than a two dimensional universe as long as the set up times and costs don’t eat up all of the benefit of the familiarity.
Almost everything else you cite is really not a function of the “virtual world” but rather better applied technology. A spreadsheet is better technology than a piece of paper. A spreadsheet that can be shared is a better technology than one that can not. A shared spreadsheet where the people using it are aware of if the other people in the room are paying attention is most likely a better idea than one that doesn’t have the same feedback.
To your point “4″ business is serious stuff because the outcome of the game is serious – can you afford food, housing, clothing, stuff like that.
I do find all this fascinating and will of course be doing my best to experience as much of the emerging technology as possible. But an interesting aside to the WOW environment – the relationships may start in WOW but the serious relationships (business connections, friendship, etc.) quickly are moved out into the real world.
I was curious about your background mainly to see if I could think up some examples of the use of 3D spaces. You might find the following article interesting, especially its reference to 3D virtual machines:
I think you’re right to be reticent. Work by groups like Clever Zebra and others make it increasingly easy to jump into virtual worlds without costing thousand in set-up costs and time. Learning curves continue to be an issue, to my mind, although you can get rolling in Qwak in about 20 minutes, even for users with no experience in game or 3D environments, but the range of things you can do is more limited than the far more open ended Second Life.
And you’re right! And you hit on one of my main points about 3D worlds – I really think they’re being misinterpreted as something different. Some day we won’t call them worlds anymore. Worlds imply they’re a place to go with their own rules and cultures. In many ways current 3D environments are worlds, but it’s a limiting view. The sooner people who are looking for business solutions realize that 3D environments are simply technologies, the sooner we’ll find intelligent people like yourself striving to work out technical efficiencies, smooth out the process flow, etc.
I’ve heard the term “Meshverse”. I like the term because it implies 3D spaces enmeshed with “real life”, 2D Web sites, cell phones, and meat space.
There will still be people who want to use virtual platforms for immersion. To play games. To escape. But as you’ve pointed out and as I’ve written on before, there’s a “loop” in which the virtual bleeds into the real very quickly no matter how hard you try to keep up the walls around the garden, preserve the magic circle, etc.
I don’t begrudge immersion. I’ve immersed myself. But there’s a lot to be said for starting to think of 3D spaces simply as another technology and to then start thinking about where that technology best applies for specific business purposes or for self expression. In the future, I see Wikis and project Intranets with spreadsheets, project files, and little 3D Web spaces that you can pop into and out of which are there for specific purposes – meeting rooms for presence, prototyping rooms, conceptual mapping, and consensus building are examples.
And yes, I agree business is serious stuff, it puts food on the table. But some businesses, like my own, which are in the creative industries, DO look for fun as part of our work environment, and games, exploration and play are as much a part of work as chunking numbers in Excel.
Which brings us into a new domain, that of serious games, and whether 3D environments are an extension of that (they are). I was speaking with a friend the other day who got a job in retail at a pharmacy. His training included a shelf stocking game and he described it as a) a great way to learn b) an intuitive way to understand the problems with managing shelf space restrictions and prioritizing and c) fun.
Finally, a footnote, which is that anyone who’s in business needs to be aware of the full spectrum of technologies available to help solve business problems. You can specialize in virtual worlds, perhaps, but you shouldn’t exclude awareness of other technologies. Just as you’re reticent, I think anyone in business should proceed with caution on any technology that seems to promise to cure what ails you – technology is no substitute for sound strategy. and I get just as much value out of telling clients “don’t do this, it isn’t for you’ as from encouraging risk and innovation.
Interesting ideas about object perm’s and limitations. I was thinking about this too the other day but only got as far as wishing for second-user perm’s. I occasionally get asked if I’ll sell an item full-perms but have to decline since i know that one forgetful user can render the item virtually worthless.
It might not work for prims, but for things like scripts or anim’s it might be very useful to be able to sell them with both first and second user perm’s set. The 1st-user gets a full perms version so they can be included in their objects and then sold on. Then, as the finished item is sold to another resident, the more limited 2nd-user perms would automatically kick-in and would prevent further unlimited distribution.
It would just make automatic something thoughtful builders should already be doing, keeping the value in the builder’s object and in the original creator’s.
Same basic idea as yours but slightly more ‘builder-friendly’. In an ideal world we’d have ALL these options…
Yes, that sounds like a great approach. Simpler and serves some more immediate and wider uses. An overall rethink of the IP/perm system seems to be long overdue, IMHO.
I think I saw a script around somewhere that you could drop into objects and would kill them if the user name had changed X times – not sure if I’m imagining that?
Oh – and forget about perms in passing stuff along, I have enough trouble finding out which of the 200 prims in my build holds the one no transfer script that’s preventing me from changing the perms! Can’t they have a nested hierarchy view of objects so that I can see what’s embedded in what? Or is that hidden somewhere beneath their Dazzling interface that I haven’t found yet?
A nested hierarchical view? Very nice idea, Wiki that one immediately!
..and it reminds me of another wishlist item of mine – hierarchical linking. When you join object-A to object-B you get linkset-C. Now join linkset-C to object-D and then unlink them again and instead of stepping back to linkset-C and object-D, you get 3 unlinked objects – not helping!
I think i first used hierarchical linking in Bryce and it was most useful, it can’t be that difficult to implement surely?
Well, either stuff is easy to implement and they’re making it seem complicated, it’s hard to implement and they’re making a big deal about how it’s complicated, or it’s complicated if they implement it because the rest of us will find it too easy. Your guess is as good as mine.
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse Second Life on 3G Phones Quote from the site – On the heels of the test client on iPhones comes this beta test of Second [...]
[...] should focus on more relevant and perhaps interesting events like Second Life hitting G3 Phones, concepts of cross reality synchronization, the new viewer but I find myself drawn back to [...]
Go visit Mindies.org (Metaverse Independent Developers). There are a lot of emerging tools in terms of content pipelines between worlds, including Second Life to Multiverse pipelines. It takes everything through Collada as the middleware layer. There is a video of it in action at:
Thanks for the post Dixie – read this on Vint’s blog I think? Really wonderful and intriguing and Collada is the way to go. Can you reverse engineer it so it goes the other way?
I am a full-time child avatar. I am and always have been emphatically against having <18 people on the main grid for reasons that need no further explanation. Before December I had a few lines in my 1st life profile citing the TOS and threatening to report underage residents I would come across. In December a two cases EXACTLY as you describe entered my purview. Now, I cannot in good conscience turn someone in for “underage”. Without a way to appeal, and with such poor (read, “zero”) review and investigation policies, and the extent of the sensitive personal documentation that must be provided to a third party to clear one’s name for this thing, the threat of wrongly punishing the innocent is simply too great. I removed this blanket statement from my profile. In the current state of affairs would never submit an AR against someone for “Underage” even if they admitted it in open chat. (I would however avoid them and ban them from my land.)
Difficult decisions and it sounds like you’ve taken a very reasoned ethical approach. What I still don’t understand is why a way to appeal is even necessary – the person being accused of being underage wasn’t, they had age verified through Linden’s service, so in order to prove their age they now have to – what? Fax in the same information they provided through the supposedly stellar age verification system?
You do point to another issue, which is the reporting system itself, how the wrongly innocent are punished and, if wrongly punished the accuser does not face a consequence. There are no options for speedy arbitration. As more and more people are able to ascribe real economic consequences to their ability to be in SL, it strikes me as dangerous that Linden can stop access based on what could prove to be false accusations.
If that happened to me and my inability to access SL meant that I was unable to demo the grid to a potential client or couldn’t take care of in world business, I’d be seriously looking at copying my sims and moving them to another platform (and hey, that’s easier and easier to do these days).
[...] Metaverse discusses the absurdity of Linden Lab’s age verification policy in his post, Linden’s Age Verification Hypocrisy. While Writer is mostly criticizing the 3rd-party solution LL began to Beta-test in December 2007, [...]
hehe yeah i saw your main point. The hypocrisy you pointed out did cause me to giggle a bit. sorry i left the *giggle* out of my responses. There was a similar observation made at Massively in late December. Aristotle’s age verification not good enough for LL? Thanks for refreshing the intertubes about this important issue.
-Adz
Well, I think the way they quietly dropped further implementation when it turned out the AV system did not work for most of the world (that is, outside of the US) made it amply clear that this was little more than a half baked PR / corporate butt protection exercise. As to the AR system, it reeks of incompetence, wilfulness, and sometimes misuse of power — but that is another matter entirely…
Well, nice looks will get you a lot of interest, but that is all you will get — you nailed that down in your last paragraph . By the way, isn’t there some name for the law that says that the more « realistic » things get, the more the human mind focuses son spotting what is off ? I seem to remember having read something like that once…
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse Over-Hyped Blue Mars Still Raises Benchmark for Second Life Quote from the site – In 2008 it’s a virtual world a day, most of them for kids, but some [...]
« I really need to stop calling them worlds, because one of my main points is that 3D spaces aren’t separate places from real world applications and business, they’re simply a different, enabling, and supplementing technology to the real and the 2D ».
This might be true for applications and business, but saying this is all there is amounts to cutting out a large chunk out of the virtual space. To many of their residents they are indeed worlds ; linked and interpenetrating to the atomic (to a degree), but still worlds. I’m no business consultant, but I daresay application developers and business execs will fare better keeping that in mind than trying to see them as a kind of pervasive interactive 3D video conferencing system.
I don’t disagree with you Rheta. I think a new terminology is needed. There are virtual worlds, which I see as immersive environments with their own cultures and artefacts; there are 3D spaces, such as Qwak, which is technically a virtual world platform but is really just ‘rooms’; and then there’s what I’ll call the Meshverse, the interlinking of 3D and 2D spaces which will be the next major wave of development; oh, and finally augmented worlds – virtual world overlays of the real.
It is really nuts. I age verified as soon as I could to avoid exactly those problems of some griefing idiot AR’ing me with all the follow up trouble of such an action. LL always shoots first and asks questions later, and I was hoping to avoid that. I almost couldn’t believe when I read that their own AV system isn’t enough for them!
The only thing that makes me feel a bit more secure is, that their AV via the 3rd party didn’t work for me anyways, so I verified my age manually, sending them a copy of my ID card. With this being stored inside their OWN system I have a tiny bit of hope that I’m safe. But who knows? We are talking about LL…
The way it is handled now, underage ARs are the ultimate griefing tool.
On 02.24.08 Ruslan Laryukov said:
I already posted to the blog of the affected person. Here’s a slightly modified version:
False UA reporting is a particularly nasty form of anti-kid harassment. What really galls me is that LL just takes the false UA report at face value, suspends without warning (generally right before the weekend), and then takes its jolly good time un-suspending. LL provides no info about your false accuser, and presumably, take no action against the harassers.
That this account was already age verified is really the icing on the cake.
How should LL change?
First of all, take their heads out of the sand. I understand their paranoia about RL underagers getting into SL, and places where they shouldn’t be … but LL should realize that certain nasty people are gaming LL’s paranoia. This is (in many known cases) clearly serious *harassment*, not to mention a waste of LL’s time and resources.
If LL receives an UA report, it should (1) if age verification has been completed, assume the UA report is false unless there is some compelling reason to believe otherwise; (2) as a rule, provide a notice with (say) one week to provide age verification *before* suspending; and (3) investigate people who file (say) three or more UA reports which prove to be false.
In this case, LL suspended the account without warning, then took almost a week to unfreeze it. In another case I remember, it took LL about two weeks to unfreeze the person *after* he faxed his driver’s license and stuff.
It is worth adding that where the person has an SL business (as was the case here), the griefer also causes economic loss.
p.s. Btw, the age verification system sucks. I couldn’t get it to auto-verify against my driver’s license, passport, or social security number – and I am even a U.S. citizen well over 18. I hate to think how it works (or doesn’t work) for other countries.
[...] But it’s the interplay of the “real” with the virtual that is the richest source for the possibilities of change. If we purely think of virtual worlds as separate, we’re ignoring the fact that they are NOT walled gardens. They may have walls – platforms like World of Warcraft erect as many barriers between the game environment and external realities and economies as possible. But there are always chinks in those walls – either cracks or with entire chunks missing. Commerce will always find a way to cross over where there’s money to be made. Intellectual property will always find a way to be disseminated as widely as it needs to be, no matter how much copy protection we try to employ. But more important still, the selves that people bring to virtual spaces are not turned off when they log off. It may seem like there’s a separation between avatar and controller, but they’re part of each other, living in a strange loop. [...]
[...] realistic worlds like the coming Blue Mars, and continual improvements like Windlight and Havok, not only make these spaces more compelling, [...]
[...] of this feeds wider discussions and discoveries about the role and rights of the avatar, alts, identity, trust, and [...]
On 02.24.08 G L said:
I am part of the load
Not rightly balanced
I drop off in the grass,
like the old Cave-sleepers, to browse
wherever I fall.
For hundreds of thousands of years I have been dust-grains
floating and flying in the will of the air,
often forgetting ever being
in that state, but in sleep
I migrate back. I spring loose
from the four-branched, time and space
and cross
this waiting room.
I walk into a huge pasture
I nurse the milk of millennia
Everyone does this in different ways.
Knowing that conscious decisions
and personal memory
are much too small a place to live,
every human being streams at night
into the loving nowhere, or during the day,
in some absorbing work.
WOW! Dusan! I just have no words… I’m speachless.
This is an AMAZING article. Full of insights and observations that will be helpful to everybody… Thank you so very much…
Please accept my deepest respect. Regards.
P.S. As to the ending, my mother in law said once:”I have graduated from the adulthood.” hehe. I recall her words every now and then while thinking about SL and what WE, the people, are doing there.
What are the dangers to this new technology? I wonder what the level of addiction will be to this type of interface. Like regular video games and Internet-enabled computers, there have been well documented studies of addiction regarding these technologies. I think things are just going to become that much more immersive and that much more addictive.
From: play Sony impressed by Home Quote from the site – Of course, the Sony Director could be somewhat biased, although he draws viable comparisons with Second Life, which is apparently inferior because it needs to cater for too many system specificati…
[...] of the news pieces focuses on a demonstration of the Emotiv headset, which we’ve written about before. The piece describes a demonstration at the 2008 Game Developers Conference of a future that is [...]
I’m glad someone else writes articles as long as I do.
When people tell you they are leaving Second Life, they often don’t really leave. They lurk on forums, they read blogs, they come back on alts, and that’s all part of the cycle. Sometimes people really leave cold but then they merely go to some other game or to Facebook.
Castronova’s concept of the exodus is interesting, but unfortunately, he’s so mired in games and ludology that he can’t understand the more subtle complexities happening with open-ended worlds.
I remember a discussion about addiction on the forums once, and one geeky tekkie sort who scripted and made a living of sorts off his products sold in SL and then later consulting for companies basically sneered: “is a carpenter addicted to his hammer?”
He was trying to make it seem — trying to convince himself likely above all — that SL was merely a tool, a platform, something like me using Microsoft Word to do translation work (nobody would say “You’re addicted to Microsoft Word”).
But of course, we all know that’s silly as people really are addicted, not applying their talents in more lucrative ways, disrupting even their real lives and ceasing to care for their spouses or kids or themselves, there are piles of stories about this. I’m strangely unmoved by them, and I’m going to think some more about why, and write about it, but it has to do not only with the idea that games or worlds crack people along fault lines that they already had before they came to them, or with the idea that this sort of addiction at least doesn’t lead to road deaths from DWI, but I have to think more about it.
I think the compelling nature isn’t even so much visualization. I’ve been in worlds or on spaces in SL that have nothing particularly compelling or beautiful about them, but people will stay in them for days on end. I think what it’s more about is choice and control. They give people those two features they simply lack in real life: choice and control.
You still aren’t getting it about thumb-sucking. This isn’t a reference to children’s habits, infantalism, or uselessness about the art itself. It’s about articles that ponder things piously because pious pondered is what is needed for some reason. It’s a newspaper term, and editors will consciously plan around certain events that they “need you to do a thumb-sucker,” i.e. somebody has to write a thinky piece on what something means. The idea is that a ponderous type would be staring into the difference sort of biting his thumb.
Here’s how Slate magazine defines it, but they say it is derogative, it isn’t always:
“Thumbsucker: A usually derogatory reference to story that ponders a bit of news and doesn’t introduce any.” http://www.slate.com/id/1003564/
(this has a good list of such slang terms btw)
I’m going to challenge your bashing of Anshe as some sort of crass mass market taste purveyor. Oh, how intellectuals must always prove that they loathe mass markets and mass culture! It’s humorous to me that you celebrate Rezzable as some antithesis, but Rezzable has more mass culture and mass taste that you could shake a stick at, what with little green martians and tropical beaches and urban-distressed canneries and all the rest. These are all hackneyed cliches.
Anshe actually puts a lot of effort into terraforming her hundreds of sims individually. You should fly around and look at them. Anshe herself personally is one of the best terraformers of SL, possibly THE best after the old Linden content team like Eric. Of course she has staff, and she has another problem: customers that wish to flatten the hell out of any sim she does produce nicely (most people can’t seem to get it through their heads that they don’t need to make a flat board to place a house, they can just place the house, then iron out the earth later.
The furniture made is actually pretty good looking. It beats by a long shot some of the “individually-crafted” mass-taste knock-offs of “modern” furniture which everyone imagines is “unique” but looks like Ikea or even Sears.
You would benefit from a thorough reading of “Bozos in Paradise,” Dusan.
When I was reading about google wanting to store medical records, I couldn’t help reaching for my tin-foil hat. Putting the paranoia aside, perhaps it is indeed a way to streamline an aspect of the medical industry to help improve service and reduce costs.. the old “cheaper, better, faster” mantra. As to google ads, I had just read this note that claims that google is not, at least for now, using them. (http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/29/the-goldmine-in-ads-that-arent-on-google-health)
I am also reminded of a presentation I saw a month or so ago about using cell phones as sensors… they can already track us easily, listen to the world around us, how about, the talking head suggested, the phone sense our breath or other indicators it could monitor to provide data or early warning to health care.
We could have a few pints at the pub and our phone tells us when we are reaching our limit for driving or talking to our boss, we return home and do a 3D tour of our body to check the effect drinking on an empty stomach has had on our brain…
On 02.29.08 Dannynice Kidd said:
I heard from my bro DJTom that Dunnie died.
The time Dummie died i was in hospital and i could not write this then.
I hate my bad Memory whenn i think back to Dummy.
I know i liked him and we had im sometime.
I was really in shock when Tom told me he died.
I cried a lot.
Why is this World so damn hard??
We all shall miss Dummie a lot, thats for sure.
Bye sweet Dummie, sleep well Friend, never more pain and sorrwow. I will think off you.
I wonder whether I should take the thumb sucking controversy to Wikipedia and let the masses sort it out, but tracing back I still feel my initial impression of how Prok used the term is closer to the Slate definition, which is how I meant it in this context. That being said, I cede the definition to wiser minds but now appropriate it for future use of my own, just because I think it’s such a great visual.
The Dusan definition: thumb sucking is the process of looking at something and finding meaning where there isn’t any. A thumb sucker is someone who ascribes some deeper truth to “shiny prims” when there’s usually no deeper truth than they’re shiny and they spin around a lot.
Thumb suckers standing around wondering about all the meteors wiping out the dinosaurs on Rezzable and believe it’s some sort of symbol of changing eras and a commentary on the impermanence of the build when in reality they had too many prims in the way of their next project.
Second, I didn’t mean to imply that Anshe Chung produces anything less than great content, and I’m fairly sure I didn’t say anything about the work itself in my post, but I can understand that in the wider context it may have seemed like a criticism.
I have no opinion, and it’s probably an object by object thing, personal tastes, whatever – I’ve seen 10L builds by Anshe and her team (a little bashed up looking little house, if I remember) that had character, great textures, and unique features. It looked as good as many of the Tiki Huts and beach houses (including my own) crafted lovingly by hand. My point wasn’t about the output, it was about the process of production. And let’s face it, a craftsperson who never thinks about creating greater efficiencies for themselves isn’t learning, and a mass producer who never thinks about aesthetics and quality won’t last long in a demanding, changing and taste-conscious virtual world. So I really didn’t mean to sound like I was disparaging the result, I was instead pointing to the tension between traditional notions of mass produced, factory line, “one size fits all” production and the (somewhat over-hyped) prosumer movement.
And as an aside, I lived on an Anshe sim way back when and one of the reasons I moved there was because it WAS beautifully terraformed, a lot of thought had gone into the relations of parcels to each other and to the overall configuration of public and private spaces, and the SYSTEM for renting was smooth and painless.
OK, I’m off to check out progress on the new Public Works.
=)
On 03.06.08 lookingforlifeshumor said:
This is a really interesting concept! Thank you for sharing.
On 03.07.08 Beau Dodson said:
Hey there
Nice find! I tried it with my photos – pretty cool!
[...] Curious to think about and see how people are using glow, and how they will use Web objects, to change the richness of environments. Otherwise, we all wait for Blue Mars. [...]
It’s really difficult to use Glow effectively until Linden add script commands for it, it’s very frustrating that they haven’t yet. Hopefully it’ll happen soon, it’s a great feature to have – even if a lot of people will turn it up full making their builds look like a journey into the core of the Sun! We’re not always the subtlest, SL builders…
The new web-based content is frustrating too since it’s been added as an adjunct to the existing parcel media settings – meaning it’s not much good yet, you can’t rely on it to deliver the same experience for all visitors. Plus, if your visitor doesn’t switch on Media for your land they’ll see nothing at all.
Still, fun to come, once these things get sorted out!
Agreed Eris…and Linden has promised HTML on a prim this spring, so I’ll hold them to it, at least on Beta.
And anything to do with land, parcel and media settings leaves me paranoid since the day I had an entire sim returned to me when I subdivided a small parcel not realizing the larger on would then exceed its prim allowance….not even connected to media settings, I know, but either an indication of my total ignorance or how complicated some of the features are. (A little warning box would be nice .. “Are you REALLY sure you wanna do this? Think about it). Not to mention I’m too lazy to update Quicktime so I still don’t see or hear anything.
Finally, I agree on Glow…but go check out King Rezzable for its appropriate use (at least in the forest environment, the star burst one left me flat).
Kapor Enterprises, as in Mitch Kapor of Lotus 1-2-3 fame, president of the Mozilla Foundation, and a member of the board of Linden Lab (as well as one of its funding partners)?
There was coverage of an interview with Mitch where he talked about it also reading expression and translating it through to that of your SL avatar. If only I could remember where I read it.
[...] 3D cameras that will initiate a new tipping point for virtual worlds, according to Mitch Kapor. I recently reported on this development, linking over to an employee’s blog post where he stated the [...]
This is really cool. Looking forward to see the demos. Btw is it using IR, like the Wii? Will it work as well for folks who are sitting? Does it track hand gestures for movement etc…? A few hints…will be enough
There’s an element of this in demo clips for some Logitech webcams, eg:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=r7Gn2TyEyHw – begins with facial attachments (eyepatch, monocle, etc), then moves into complete replacement avatars. Unfortunately, the guy doesn’t move around too much, but the facetracking can still be seen. The software manages reasonably well with tracking lips and eyebrows, too, though sometimes seems to give people something of a tic. None the less impressive for that, though!
Yes, thanks for that. There’s an interesting discussion over at Croquet about some of this as well so it seems like there’s growing work on the interface devices. Emotiv is getting a lot of play and there was another device out of Germany that worked off brain waves as well. Should be an interesting year for the, um, controllers.
3D cameras sound as a nice thing. Though “augmented reality” and some of the expectations are actually a bad and clumsy idea, nice, simple to use and affordable mocap hardware could improve the world and our communication. We’ll see how development of both hardware and the interface will go. After all, it’s all about what we want to achieve.
[...] Dusan Writer suggests that the wiki adoption patterns and strategies on Wikipatterns.com can also be applied to virtual worlds: Wiki Patterns for example, offers a toolkit for companies and communities looking to optimize the use of Wikis. But this toolkit sounds suitable as a “best practices toolkit” for Second Life. [...]
First off, thank you for the link and the mention, I’m glad you enjoyed the article!
In all of the entries that I read on the topic, I saw no evidence of cooperation between Linden and creators. In fact, I saw additional roadblocks in the form of a mailed-in DMCA and stonewalling.
While I grant that, as a company, they have many other issues to contend with, there are simple steps that they could take to make the process less painful without raising cost or providing much additional distraction.
I wouldn’t say it shows outright disdain for the creators in second life, but it certainly shows a lack of willingness to take any action, no matter how small and no matter how much it might help…
I think i’ve boiled it down to 3 main options, now trying to decide which is (most) true…
A/ Linden don’t know what to do and have no real vision for Second Life’s future. This one seems more plausible when you learn they originally planned to make (or commission) all the content themselves. Instead they switched to user-generated content – it was a good call, it took off, it wasn’t what they’d planned, now they’re lost.
B/ Linden don’t want to do anything. Also very convincing, seems to be the company’s culture: ignore it and it’ll go away. They’re right, if they ignore the issue of content protection it WILL all go away – all the builders, designers, graphic artists, musicians, DJ’s etc. We’ll all just go away.
C/ Linden only do anything in order to protect their profitability. Very convincing! Especially when you realise how important Premium members are to growing the SL economy and then notice that their numbers are falling. Suddenly ad-farms have to go and we’re getting mainland beautification via the Public Works projects. Not a coincidence. This is probably the leverage residents need to exploit. Make Linden see what harm stolen content (or the lack of new content) does to the economy and their profitability and suddenly we might see some action…
After reading Wagner Au’s book (intriguing until he became a “virtual world consultant” and then I thought he got a little thin), I was left with a sort of impression that SL and the residents are pretty much a whacked out, nutty group of people with a few empowering stories and odd gender-bending relationships. Not to say it’s not a great read, but it has me wondering whether it isn’t in some ways representative of Linden’s attitude towards its residents. Yeah, they loved having Anshe on the cover of Business Week, but even now they’re disavowing any of the work of real world companies who tried to take a crack at Second Life over the past year only to decamp in frustration. Basically, their line has been “SL isn’t ready for that kinda prime time”.
So let’s extend this – if Rosedale really is represented accurately by Wagner, then he’s an idealist, still dreaming about SL as a sort of “Be Bop” Burning Man (I posted on this today). The common refrain is “we’ll make a great platform and gee, won’t it be awesome to see what our nutty community comes up with once we do.”
I’m all for Be Bop. I’m all for Mirrored Flourishing (they tend to love stories of welfare moms who make good or someone who make better cars than Chrysler in their basement). But Linden’s attitude seems to be “look, this is a parade, a giddy carnival of fun and passion, and we’re not going to intrude with any sort of big business, old school, capitalist mentality, although sure, we wanna stay in business, but our ethos rules man, peace out.”
So, where they stand: let’s make sure everyone can fully express themselves, and one way to do that is to open up the grid. We need to anyways because although all these other platforms don’t have our hip, cool, surfer, laid-back ethos (combined with our deep love of code, cuz God’s in there man) they’re starting to circle around our little world, and wouldn’t it be awesome if people could hold their own little Burning Man’s by having their own servers.
But if that happens, they risk all these little private islands disconnecting from the Main Grid, so they start cleaning up the mainland. The future is in letting everyone host a parade, not in shopkeeping anyways, because after all, with 10,000 jeans already on the market, the bottom will fall out anyways, which isn’t such a bad thing because it will let everyone get back to their be-boppy roots.
What’s more important is not to upset the core ethic, which is to make sure our giddy users have access to the deepest tools possible for creating fun “stuff” (P.S. the in world economy was an add-on anyways, done in dire times as a way of saving Linden Labs, so it’s not like they ever really had their heart in it). And in doing so, we’ll make sure that we keep the space open for all the educators and collaborators who are our real future anyways – schools learning new ways to spread new models of education (we can teach the world!), and businesses who upend their business models once they see the magic of be bop reality.
I’ve argued before, however, that Linden needs a good dose of re-visioning. And in so doing create a more compelling strategy than “Our job is to create technology, it’s up to the users to decide what to do with it.” They seem to think that they’re creating a platform for liberation and social change, but don’t seem to realize that they’re acting more and more like an Internet Service Provider and in the commodification of their platform are thus attracting people who care about performance, intellectual property protection, tracking, privacy, and security.
Linden’s singular focus on providing tools to users towards enabling a shared creative “Burning Life” has blinded them to the fact that they’ve actually positioned themselves as nothing more than a server farm, with a bottom-line focus on island sales (thus the new “low prim sims”), with the dreamy hope that they’re the frontier of the age of virtual worlds (I’ve read that they play parlor games at LL trying to guess whether they’re the Compuserve, Mosaic, or Netscape of their time) and that their vision is so powerful that all those old nagging worries about content theft will go away once we all wake up and see that there’s a glorious new world that awaits.
There is. And it’s called the Internet. And the competition for the attention and talent of DJs, texture artists, modelers and others has an increasing number of options.
Linden needs to re-evaluate what the future looks like because the future includes people who can work anywhere, from anywhere, in any virtual world. And yes, there will always be room for the libertarian carnival, but like Burning Man it might only come once a year because who can take a lifetime of that, and it will get torn down once its done.
I can agree with the basic principle that Linden needs to do some serious re-envisioning of their product. One of the impressions that I’ve gotten as I’ve read Linden’s own sites and replies is that they don’t seem to understand what they want to be as a company or what they want SL to be as a product.
They’ve got some neat technology, many users who enjoy it and they need to find a way to make it cohesive and profitable. Not easy.
I think part of the reason people like me don’t “get” SL isn’t because we dislike virtual worlds, but because we don’t understand what the purpose of it is. One can hardly blame us when you look at the mixed messages Linden sends.
This seems to translate directly into how Linden handles these content issues. They say they take content theft issues seriously but don’t offer any meaningful solutions or even attempts at solutions. Part of it likely is the profitability issue and the fact there is no money to be made by removing infringing works. Some of it though is that they don’t know if or how this issue fits in with their future plans.
If they knew, for certain, they were going to be a company that was going to profit almost solely off of the exchange of virtual goods, they would likely do something to lock it down better. But they don’t want to invest in locks if, in a few months, the business model changes to something where content theft doesn’t matter.
You can’t invest in a future that you don’t know anything about.
[...] been covered three times by Reuters, as well as being mentioned by Nobody Fugazi, Massively, Dusan Writer, and practically every other Second Life related blog that I subscribe to (and several that I [...]
Ironic this, it struck me a some time ago that if this was a listed company the shareholders would be on the brink of voting him off the board. I give him credit and respect for his self-realisation and for doing the right thing (IMHO).
My worry? He hires a fall-guy. He hires Torley in a suit. Someone who talks the same talk and walks the same walk and takes the daggers when nothing changes, leaving Philip wound-free and ‘visioneering’.
My hope? He hires someone with ears for the residents, eyes for the future and who is able, even enjoys, kicking some ass…at least for a little while.
This could get very interesting or very depressing.
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse Plagiarism Today Weighs in on IP Theft in Second Life Quote from the site – A good overview from a neutral outside observer on the copybot issue in [...]
The timing of this whole discussion has certainly taken on new meaning with the announcement of Philip taking on the role fo Chair of LL in order to find a replacement as CEO.
The post picks up a comment by that smiley virtual world watcher Robert Bloomfield:
“Linden Lab’s unique business vision allows them to break plenty of rules, but they can’t ignore the basic economic forces governing corporate growth and ultimately access to capital markets. The search for a successor is going to lead to some real soul-searching about two key trade-offs in Linden Lab’s strategy. First is the tradeoff between stability of the software platform and feature-heavy construction that allows creators with tremendous freedom. Second is the tradeoff between catering to individual residents who want a new world full of fantastic possibilities for their personal lives, and enterprises who see virtual worlds (but perhaps not Second Life) as the future of electronic commerce and the virtual office. Without a tremendous influx of capital that would allow them to become all things to all people, Linden Lab’s new management will need to make some big decisions on which way to turn.”
[...] happens when we try to port our old ideas and paradigms into the new space. Last time I checked, CSI New York was relegated to a few lonely and disheartened looking [...]
And 100% of online users of MMORPGs pretend to be magic-using elves or cantina aliens flashing telekinetic death-grips, so what exactly have these bumbling bureaucrats of banality discovered? That people in alternate realities create alternate selves?
[...] transparency and trust, with the latter being considered one of the key drivers on the Net. As I previously posted, there were some insightful comments from John Clippinger, who [...]
Hey anonymous-not – can you point me to an export utility from SL to Maya? As I mention in the post, you can currently build and render in Maya and import into SL but that’s not always a help to SL-only developers. So if you’re aware of an export to Maya pipeline I would LOVE to hear about it.
As far as whether you like the look or feel I suppose it will be interesting to see what people do with their imagination. I suppose people might only see a glass stuck on a bar where others see opportunities and allow their creative juices to lift off of what is clearly supposed to be a demo. I imagine multiple renders of the same scene at different times of the day, with the textures being swappable based on a detect sun parameter. Aside from a cocktail lounge I’ll place my faith in the residents of SL to explore the possibilities.
As far as ‘dead and haunted’ I’d refer you to my earlier post on the subject and in particular the following:
- In RL, how often is a social group of friends (or even strangers for that matter) available to satisfy our whim to be entertained or ’social’? Social activities don’t happen because we want them to, they take a circle of friends, a network of shared plans, an understanding of each other’s patterns and preferences. Same is true for SL.
Not sure what your experiences have been in SL, or RL for that matter, I can just share my own perspective.
Today I have added a couple alternative registration portals to the catalog. I believe this completes the list of available last names, unless there are other registration portals like CSI:NY or GossipGirl I don’t know about. These portals have exclusive last names. Never fear! my new feature indexes those last names too! More last names are available now than there ever have been… it is a shocking number: 1,809 , all told.
The rapid development of 3D interfaces is always a pleasure to look at. Makes me feel confident Virtual Worlds are on the right track
I like the little gaming innovation concerning the mixing of dimensions smoothly (as posted here). At the bottom of that article is another list of 3D interfacing with data, some hardware side – that really show the value of a third Dimension.
I’m sure you’ve seen it but I posted today on a grab bag of things but really really really check out the TED presentation of Photosynth….and stick around for the last minute or so where it all comes together in one organic, communally created virtual environment….it is breath taking.
first and foremost let me say I am sorry, truly and deeply sorry, if anything I wrote has hurt you. It was not in my intent to ever do so, though I can see how I have brought this down on me by focusing on one of your lines of thinking instead of your thinking as a whole. Will you accept my apologies ?
I don’t know if splitting hairs will mellow the blow, but I would like to stress I did not « group [you] with the augmentationists » — I picked up on some of your recent arguments to prototype two opinions one could lump in with these pseudo-camps, but only to make my point that to me, this particular debate is as irrelevant as it is silly, and that (as far as I can tell with my modest abilities) the camps do not in fact exist as they are perceived. You cannot be a citizen of Second Life without immersing yourself into it (hence the tourist analogy for those who refuse to do so), and there would be no point whatsoever in doing so if it was not augmenting our RL somehow.
You Can Be an Augmented Immersionist indeed. We all are both, however hard some of us cling to old banners and labels.
Speaking of feelings on last time : you just took you revenge, by writing the post I wish I had been able to write next. But I’m grateful you did, because you have done it so much better than I would ever been able to. Thank you.
[...] Dusan Writer has done so tonight, and he has done even better, carrying the thought much further than I would ever have been able to : But when I look at Second Life I don’t see a game, and I don’t see a role-playing environment, and I don’t see an e-commerce engine (although to some degree it is all of these) – I see the possibilities for stories. And in these possibilities I am attracted to how Second Life may be a new camp fire around which we weary hunters gather, scratching pictures in the sand with our primitive tools and telling each other of the days we’ve had, and the adventures ahead. [...]
Awww Rheta hahaha. I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to make it sound so tragic. Call it a rhetorical flourish, I suppose, to make the point that in a world where we struggle for labels like immersion and augmentation to describe how we react to the experience of virtual worlds, we all come to realize that we struggle within the blurry lines between. Your post was an inspiration to me, Rheta, so no apologies required.
Ah well, you have no idea how relieved I am to hear as much — laugh all you want . And did I say what an utterly amazing, brilliant post this is ? If I inspired you to this, be it only a little, I am very glad.
A lovely post (an’ thanks to Rheta for pointing at it, and for being an important part of the discussion!).
One thing that struck me while reading this is that yes SL is all about stories, and in fact storytelling may well be the killer app of SL and the other VMs worthy of the name; and that while we’re thinking that we should also think that RL is all about stories, and in fact storytelling is for many ( some / most / all?) of us the killer app for RL. We do lots of stuff just to pay tier, so to speak, but the rest of the time? We’re there sitting around the campfire…
On 03.22.08 Beau Dodson said:
We live on a world that is but a tiny speck in the vast universe. So small that it couldn’t even be viewed with a microscope if you were to compare the size to that in which we live.
I believe that Second Life (and others) are in their first second of life – if that. What we see today will not be what we see tomorrow. Trying to place it in a box, trying to define it, trying to make it somehow “fit” in our lives – will never work.
The reason it will never work is because it is a work in progress. What may be today will not be tomorrow. There is room for every culture, every explorer, every creation of artwork within its limitless space. Unlike our planet, where boundaries already exist, there will be no boundaries in the worlds that you are creating.
Why do we feel the need to define something? Why do we need to have “camps” of people that somehow believe they “get it” and others don’t? Is this not what has brought our “real” world into chaos?
Perhaps some things in life don’t need to be defined but rather experienced.
This world will evolve beyond our definitions. No matter how hard we try to imagine what it will become, we will fall short.
I really enjoyed this post, I wish more writings, more blogs were of this depth and literary on sl – beautiful to read, from the thinking to the texture of the words. I am going to keep a copy of this in my archive. Thank you.
I really enjoyed this post, I wish more writings, more blogs were of this depth and humanly warm on sl – beautiful to read, from the thinking to the texture of the words. I am going to keep a copy of this in my archive. Thank you.
[...] Kevin Kelly, courtesy of Dusan Writer : « In Second Life, or in chat rooms, we can chose who we want to be, our gender, our genetics, [...]
On 03.24.08 paiskidd said:
Hey Dusan, I think we have only just started to turn the rich soil in the garden of thoughts that PKD provides in his speach. As I saw what aspect that you commented upon, then was also re-skimming it and mentally holding it next to our Metaverse context, I then heard an echo of some of Laurie Anderson’s spoken lyric from a cut named “Born, Never Asked”, that says, “It was a large room, full of people. All kinds, and they had all arrived at the same building at more or less the same time. And they were all free, and they were all asking themselves the same question. What is behind that curtain?”
She may have been thinking of a different line of allegory than us finding our human-ness in virtual dimensions, but when I press it up against PKD’s one sentence definition, “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.” and then thread it to why we fragment ourselves out of meatspace to find ourselves again in a metaverse, our eternal braid may look less made up of strange loops when we hold it up to the right kind of light.
PKD also has a tangent saying, “The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words.” I think it is interesting that one one part of ourselves that is literal in SL is our text chat. The mechanism is important, i think as well, and although voice chat exists, I am sure it not simply another way of doing the same thing. The way we communicate with text provides a pace and exchange that causes us to pare down our expressions to short, concise sentences, then wait for a response, then reply… things can happen in that process that don’t happen in other kinds of communication. The first time I met a SL friend in RL, I found conversation seemed way too fast for me to assimilate and respond. I was used to the cadence and parsing of chat with this person.
Of course, this is not the aspect that PKD was talking about, he was saying that with fiction, authors are basing part of their words on truth and part as fiction, but the consumer of fiction is not given that information, so we are in a dangerous situation of “fiction mimicking truth, and truth mimicking fiction. We have a dangerous overlap, a dangerous blur.”
If any of us are seeking Truth, or to find our better expression of Being, or a better way to be Human; does our explorations of ourselves in the Metaverse help or hinder the apsects of our current other pseudo-realities?
That is interesting for in-world communication. I cannot imagine somebody using crappy SL voice for machinima, though. If you need it to sound at least decent, you have to over-dub.
Great post and great point about storytelling.
I’d like to try my luck answering Beau why do we need definitions, even when they turn into camps and even when we are aware that they cannot put the world into a box. We need them because we try to understand and depict the world we are in. We try to tell the story, and we need definitions (whether they are words, images, prims or even music) to do that. there is nothing wrong with that, as long as we are aware that they will change, just as the world changes. And world is changing not only by itself but with our storytelling and our definitions. There is a trap and danger, but if we are aware it is an adventure worth taking. It is not words that turned the world into chaos. Words made the world out of chaos. And they are transforming it in each turn. It0’s up to us if that’s going to be for good or for bad.
Well put Dandellion. Although I also take Beau’s point that we can spend so much time assessing and naming and trying to define that we forget to just experience.
I agree. If we stick in naming and defining without experiencing, we’re dead. Nothing is more dangerous to philosophy than trying to think without living.
@ Pais – I’ve come to believe that virtuality is no different than other realities, it just uses different tools of expression, tools which, perhaps, tap into some richer vein of storytelling and experience, particularly because it IS immersive, and therefore ‘feels real’, and because in that place which feels real the rules and “words” that we have at our disposal are different. I feel somewhat like we’re at the dawn of perspective in painting – imagine how it must have felt to become suddenly aware, through the canvas, that there was a whole range within our visual language we had been blind to, and what it was like to experience that for the first time. It caused schisms in beliefs and argument, but there is no argument that it was as if we had a blind spot that was suddenly revealed.
More to your point, however, I’m not sure it’s just the pace of chat and typing that creates a little electric change in perspective. It’s the combination of it with the visual environment. As you know, there’s nothing I hate worse than sitting and talking with someone in SL (oops, better check the branding guidelines, I meant “in virtual world of Second Life (R)”) and not facing them….it’s just text chat, but that’s combined with a visual vocabulary as well. As the range of avatar expression increases (lip synching for those with voice, 3D cameras that can detect facial expression and movement, etc) it will be interesting to see how the range of language (text plus expression plus presence plus the ability to co-create using prims, embedded HTML, etc.) the range of stories, their depth or texture, might increase as well.
I’m glad that you called it ‘pseudo-realities’ however – because I’m not convinced that there’s anything *different* about the ’strange loop’ that occurs within a virtual environment…it’s more that we don’t afford ourselves as many opportunities for it to occur. How many of us are part of a writer’s workshop? Or travel to strange places that shake our sense of location or culture or belief? Or participate in meditation retreats? All things where we, in a sense, fragment part of ourselves from our habitual meat space.
Finally, while virtual worlds are powerful environments for storytelling, your quote of Laurie, a cut that I well love, reminds me of another quote:
“Sometimes I have the feeling that we’re in one room with two opposite doors and each of us holds the handle of one door, one of us flicks an eyelash and the other is already behind his door, and now the first one has but to utter a word and immediately the second has closed his door behind him and can no longer be seen. He’s sure to open the door again for it’s a room which perhaps one cannot leave. If only the first one were not precisely like the second, if he were calm, if he would only pretend not to look at the other, if he would slowly set the room in order as though it were a room like any other; but instead he does exactly the same as the other at his door, sometimes even both are behind the doors and the beautiful room is empty.”
ESC is not totally throwing in the towel, no. I think that there are some situations where SL can be compelling. But yes, we think there can be compelling, immersive uses of Flash & papervision to offer virtual world experiences to a much bigger audience than has the computing requirements and fortitude for SL. I am sure there will still be marketing efforts to the SL community as mark of broader campaigns.
The dynamics are very different for community members and content creators. It is in their interests that SL provide a certain level of feature stability (don’t break my stuff!) and preserve the economy. There are not really a lot of places to go that offer such an economy — OpenSim, which lacks a permissions system, would totally remake the economy.
My perception is that Linden Lab has chosen their existing community (and opening their arms to collaboration/education experimentation) rather than risk too much pushing to be an open platform. It certainly protects their cash flow, which is understandable. But it slows down and reduces their chances of being the next big thing. But they are not out of the running. Time will tell!
IMO, most of us still have this early-adopter mentality which seems to assume that the two biggest draws, the killer app’s, of SL are first, the ability to create within it and make your own virtual place and second to mess around with the code that drives it, for fair means or foul. We’ve been driven this far by creatives and codeheads – they’ve achieved amazing things and could continue to do so but there’s something important that’s missing – the audience.
I suspect that many of the 95% of new-users who don’t stay were expecting Facebook 2 or MySpace Plus but instead found themselves dropped into Maya for Beginners. I would never want to see the creative side of SL in any way limited – just the opposite, for me it IS the biggest draw – but I think we have to recognise the mainstream user will (mostly) only come for the fun and not the work of virtual worlds.
Thanks Giff and Eris. I think I was being, um, dramatic.
Any talk of interoperability and relationships with 3d party developers (publishing some sort of forward-looking plan that developers can, well, PLAN against would be a nice start) and you end up sounding like you mean that the “walled garden” needs to come down. As I say in my profile, our focus is on vertical integration across platforms – not because different platforms need to integrate with each other, so much, but rather because when you go to create an experience you want to bring the right tools at the right time to the right person.
This might be a quick Papervision experience, a mini-game (Metaplace anyone?), a VIR-Tools environment, or an immersive sim. Within this range of experiences and then the communities around them, there is a role for a place like Second Life in facilitating game economies, avatar representation, and shared/co-created environments. Their protection of their brand, I believe, is an important part of protecting a “good housekeeping seal of approval” on the experience that they provide.
But they’d better make sure that the much protected seal of approval is sealing something of which we approve.
As you pointed out Giff, the platform doesn’t support its full promise, which is what I mean by ‘throwing in the towel’. The full experience, as initially envisioned (I imagine) by the CSI build, was meant to be mostly in-world (with Web and media outlets as the point of attraction). But SL can’t ‘bear the load’ of these kinds of concepts – full immersion, branded, cross-platform. Which is fine – SL wasn’t ready yet, as the Lindens then said (in retrospect).
So where does that leave us? Well, I won’t contribute to the stability discussion…but rather the discussion of experiences. And because Linden isn’t in the content creation business, they need to rely on others to do that part for them. And as the options increase, they need to realize that it’s Pro/Am time: if they don’t attract the right mix of pros and combine them with the vibrant community of amateur creators (many of whom are trying to BECOME pro), then they’ll lose both to other platforms.
And pros expect certain things. They don’t need source code but they need pipelines. They need to know that if they’re creating an experience that they can build it once and then place the same ‘objects’ within SL, and inside PaperVision, and maybe in a Vir-Tools demo room or an True Space gallery.
Lacking clear direction and poor developer relations, (I’m still waiting on replies to 3 e-mails through “The Grid”) they then put salt on the wounds of the “Amateur” part of the equation, sending little tremors and shocks, lacking a clear explanation of whether their crackdown on branding is an “Intel Inside” strategy, “Due Dilligence” ahead of a sale, simple house cleaning, or a well thought out desire to “brand” the future open architecture project.
As far as Maya for beginners, have a look at 3DVIA shape, sometime, for what a real Maya for beginners looks like – and frankly, in my early days of SL I would have welcomed an application like it – as user friendly as you can possibly get for a newbie to 3D modeling. They should do a deal with those guys and have an optional external building program!
So where does it leave us – they haven’t attracted the “Pros”. They’ve upset the amateurs (again). And they’re protecting a logo which has less and less value as a brand, because its associated with a lack of clarity (hey! Why just settle on one logo! Maybe if we have 3 or 4 we’ll confuse people and they’ll stop associating us with flying genitalia!), and their “fanzines” have been pretty much given 90 days to comply or … or what? They’ll shut down the people who are tirelessly advocating and promoting SL and who, ironically, don’t even work for Linden Labs.
I never believed I could have a Second Life. So maybe Fitzgerald’s adage isn’t true…”There are no second acts, but in Second Life’s case we’ll hope this isn’t true.”
On 03.27.08 ichabod Antfarm said:
Dusan,
I second the “creepy”. The tech is fine and wonderful and all that but the result is disturbing. I would rather look like an animated cartoon than an animated corpse. If this is the future then it’s shoe in the machine time for me, I am afraid to say.
Dusan – Thank you for your kind words about 3DVIA Shape…you’ve got exactly the right idea – it’s an attempt to expand the accesibilty for creating 3D content.
Also, very intereting times in the metaverse for SL and many of the other worlds. We’re looking to expand the software and our 3D modeling community to support virtual worlds more effectively. I would love to get your thoughts on how we could help. Drop me an email when you get a chance.
Hahaha yeah….mind you, they have some pretty cute cartoon versions as well, you should check them out. But for sure…..creeepy….and maybe at home in Blue Mars.
On 03.27.08 Teddy said:
Well played! Sometimes you have to barrel around and reach the profound in order to find what is “as simple as that”… With this in mind, I’ve come across a website that does just that! http://www.pixellogo.com
On 03.27.08 Name Revolution said:
The name issue in SL has bugged me from the time of initial registration. Forcing a name upon me as an adult violates my feelings, it should not be.
So eventually I did become increasingly unhappy with the selected family name, being reminded of it every time I logged in. I sort of became fixated on that, and it started to seriously dampen my enthusiasm whenever I was inworld, I could not fully let my personality stream into the avatar who has a name that was only semi-chosen by me.
Another thing I became increasingly anal about was the self title “senator” by the Lindens. Hum. Senators are usually voted into office, but the Lindens are effectually feudalistic lords. I think calling themselves Emperor or Duke or King would have been even more apt, since that would have been so over the top that it could have been sold as satire. But “senator” hypnotizes people into adding democratic symbols mentally when really SL is anything but a democracy. For example, I ran into a guy who had a region and a house on the beach, only to wake up next day, log in, and discover that the Lindens had piled another sim right in front, so where his oceanview used to be, was now a grassy hill. This is someone who bought that region. His only option was to adapt…
Then I discovered other Grids where I could, as it should be, decide my own name and I have been in these Grids since. It’s lonely at times, yes, but choosing my own name is worth that.
Besides, I’m just too untech to fiddle with settings until my cheap Nvidia card and Celeron CPU would generate an acceptable SL experience. It’s so hacked off and jumpy, if I want to make a left turn I end up 300 degree off track. I don’t have that problem in other Grids.
That’s the head of the nail. It’s not about the technical challenges LL face, those will just have to be dealt with, that’s a given. It’s actually about what people do when they get here (into SL) and i think the way forward is to adopt a more web-like model.
When you sign up for MySpace you’re not handed a book of html and a text editor to go write your own website – you’re given check-boxes to check and text-fields to fill with some details of yourself – all of which add up to your presence on MySpace.
Your equivalent presence in SL is your avatar. The first user experience in SL should be creating that avatar presence, then moving it out into the wider SL world then, at a later date if you want, you should be introduced to building and creating within SL. The point isn’t to make the 3D creation tools in SL more user-friendly (altho we need that too!) it’s to realise that many (possibly even most) people arriving in SL don’t particularly want to use them! They want a virtual world presence and the opportunity to explore, socialise and have fun within it – why aren’t we giving them that?
It struck me earlier that this concept is about to be put to a very good test – Sony’s Home on the PS3 is, rumoured at least, about to open for Public Beta in April. Their concept is very like this – a virtual presence with little or no creation tools – and it’ll be fascinating to see if it captures the imagination of PS3 users. Be very interesting to see what Sony have come up with after about 3 years development too…
Thanks for the comment N.R…..care to share which Grids you prefer? With the latest fiasco around brand use, might be time to dig a little deeper than my earlier cursory tours.
On 03.27.08 Name Revolution said:
Oh, sure.
Basically I went pretty much through the grid-list on the opensimulator site, some very small standalone-single-region “grids” like “Metropolis”, or the French one (with no one but me in it at the time) and some larger ones, “large” in relation to opensimulator grids. Of course, compared to the sheer might of SL, at least in terms of busy avatars, all other grids are still very small.
which is run by an and in Australia/n. This is a very sympathetic project and much has been done in terms of stability and functionality. Opensimulator-Grids are still a bit rough around the edges but nothing which would cause gray hair. It’s not a Windows 98 situation or anything that drastic. At the moment, it’s mostly just the pioneer builders busy being creative, but things are picking up and more and more Second Lifers are coming in to have a peek, not without derogatory remarks of course.
OpenLifeGrid only sells regions, membership is free, you can’t however hook up your standalone to their grid.
, these guys are Americans, and the owners of the grid are busy right now to build stuff, I’ve seen streets today and other interesting things. Don’t be scared away by the incredibly ugly, very NON-2.0 front webpage which will make you puke, and by the fact that the loginuri is hidden behind initial registration. It’s definitely worth checking out this one as well. What they offer seems to be a combination and/or of selling regions and also allowing you to hook up your standalone to their grid, but I haven’t looked deep enough into it what variation, that is mainly because I’m not a builder or region owner, I just wander around and bless unsuspecting strangers with my sweet personality.
I checked it out yesterday and this is the one where I will most likely end up because here you can hook up your standalone server for no charge. (Donations are welcome, I presume, nevertheless.) I’m not sure how this one is connected directly to the sweet people of Opensimulator, there seems to be a connection but I haven’t figured out yet how and who. But I’ve already made a friend who offered me to just build stuff on his regions. Wow. I like to build houses, and I do have a newly discovered architectural talent, but being unemployed means I cannot afford to buy a region, not even in OpenLifeGrid which is considerably cheaper than SecondLife.
I do crash a lot in OSGrid, some regions run different simulators, some regions are just badly configured, but the price is right so I’m not complaining. OSGrid is more anarchistic than the others, please add the positive meaning of anarchistic here. Essentially this is hackers (again positive meaning please), freaks (..), fiddlers and aspiring techies throwing their home-brewn standalone server-regions into the grid. Very eclectic and I really hope they will work out the stability issues, which of course is more difficult inside a sack of cats.
To do justice to the small ones, please allow me to mention both Metropolis, a single region “grid” intended for speakers of German, but to be looked into by everyone, and a French Grid with some pretty interesting terraforming.
To make gridhopping easy, I’m going to advise something I would normally not, which is to just use the same password and avatar name for all the other grids, not necessarily your SL one though. This way you can create shortcuts on your desktop and mark the “remember password” in your SL client. This way, going into a different grid becomes like going to a different webpage, all that differs is the loginuri.
Users of Linux such as myself and who are too lazy to create launchers, can basically just keep a textfile with the different loginuris and just open a console and copypaste the command for the client, with the route of which folder the client lives and the loginuri.
“lucy” would be replaced by the name you are using. Your path to which folder you’ve saved the Second Life client of course may differ from mine…
Once you’ve figured out which grids you plan to visit regularly, you can then go ahead and create launchers on the desktop.
If you’re using a bizarr operating system like Microsoft Windows, you’d just copypaste your launcher for SL and change the loginuri in the new launcher.
(second sending, delete this if first did arrive)
On 03.27.08 Name Revolution said:
What do you mean with “latest fiasco around brand use”, sorry, I just stumpled on your blog yesterday.
On 03.27.08 Name Revolution said:
My -very- long post didn’t get published, I have a copy, let me know here if you need me to send it to you in an alternative way. (Too long perhaps?)
On 03.27.08 paiskidd said:
Hahaha.
I was also thinking the logo was Virtually Meaningless
No, it’s OK …. with all the links and so on the system thought it might be spam. Have now approved.
Thanks for a wonderful post. I’ve checked out a few of those and have also become very enamored with RealXtend. Set up my own local grid in less than 15 minutes and started fiddling around – amazing. No one there, because it was just, well, me, but I might toss it up on our servers as well and invite some friends.
I’m going to link your comment from the home page, I think it’s worth a wider audience.
As far as the branding thing…well, long story and I’m too exhausted to talk about it anymore…gave too many column inches to it already. But the easiest way to follow what happened is to read the SL blog, and the bloggers’ blog…
[...] Dusan Writer is strongly in the anti-policy camp: Linden Labs sent out a Trojan horse into the community – a spiffy (and useless) new logo, perhaps thinking bloggers, content creators, educators and businesses wouldn’t notice the fine print which many are speculating is all prelude to an IPO. [...]
[...] Dusan Writer notes a teacher using Second Life to teach class: According to Dr. Gerard Lucas, “Second Life allows us to look at issues like identity, identity building, gender, sexuality and race. It brings all these ideas to the forefront in a way that students can engag…” [...]
[...] of rules for residents and other people on the use of the company’s trademarks earlier this week. Much-lauded by numerous blogs, Linden Lab’s move highlights the company’s strong commitment to its [...]
On 03.30.08 jukiascreations said:
This sounds really good. I really love the photographs. Are those photos from the Sims 3?
Hello, my name is Jukia, I am a Simmer and creator for Sims downloads that other Simmers can download and put in their game. I create things like new objects and such. So far I haven’t really moved on to the Sims 2.
This new Sims game sounds wonderful, I am just afraid whether it is going to be too big for my computer (aghem laptop). The Sims 2 game tends to skip and lag and the load time is too long. What do you think?
From the perspective as an interloper looking to goof around, my attitude was I was amazed that SL worked as well as it did and took downtime and problems with a grain of salt.
Last week, I was getting little nagging surveys on login starting off with “…in your opinion, is SL getting better or worse lately? Why?…” and I didn’t answer, since I wasn’t sure if all I had was unhelpful and uninformed gripes. When I finally started formalizing my complaints, the survey nagger disappeared.
When I think about people that are trying to actually conduct business with SL, or create in-world events, or schedule meetings with friends, or otherwise actually *use* SL… then I see how infuriating downtime can be.
Sometimes one must mention the silly to be taken somewhat seriously. Know what I mean, or mean what I know? That comment was one of many that I made to the journalist who did that interview. I had no idea she would choose to spotlight that particular comment, nor could I have predicted that you would focus on it as well. Thanks nonetheless for the write-up. I am also of the opinion that educational efforts in SL need more (positive) coverage. And just fyi, that particular event was theme-based (invasion of pirates), and was part of a series of free experimental language learning/teaching activities in SL. According to participant feedback, it was one of our most enjoyable and memorable language learning/teaching events.
Silly?
*Second Life offers us the ability to explore new approaches to learning and teaching. Let us not let worries about “silly” get in the way of well-intended efforts. Let us explore the possibilities…and have fun doing so!
Thanks for the follow-up Kip! I’m with you on silly, and on education in SL in general. Keep us posted!
On 04.01.08 paiskidd said:
Pais looks up after diving into photosynth and flying around, leans back, gets a 10K km stare, and strokes his chin…..
It looks like they are creating some derived geometries of camera and target position, but I am not sure how robust that is. They may be relying more on stitching together the photos to pull things into a topological framework.
The reason I am thinking this is I am wondering how to map things to real world coordinates. Maybe if a frame work were augmented with something like LIDAR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidar) deployed a bit like google street view (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_street_view) so that the textures from images are mapped on a real-world 3D coordinate framework, we’d have the basis for being able to really create an immersive virtual map of our spaces. A tricky bit will be to deal with the temporal nature of time, since it may be troublesome to see the same seen stitched together, with trees fully leafed in summer, the other with snow drifts.
Taking a different tack… I was looking at the artist’s studio collection in photosynth and was thinking if I could “see” stuff in Second Life like that, it might even be worth going to the various galleries and museums (or even stores). Pais gets tired of waiting for things to rez around him.
Gosh Pais I wish I were as technical as you. But it strikes me that what’s happened here is that the people taking the photos themselves are the ones tagging that the image is what they say it is. Interesting in the TED demo that he shows how one photo was actually a photo of a photo! Talk about crowd sourcing content!
While I imagine that it would be good to get accurate measures of location based on some sort of computer cross-match to geographies, I also wonder whether that doesn’t end up getting solved in the long run by the photographers themselves. Based on how they put this together, they’ve been able to create a 3D object out of different photos taken at different times and have been able to compute the exact location of each camera in reference to that object. Doesn’t it just take one of those photographers to also tag the photo with a GPS position?
So, for example, while its Google, synch Photosynth up to something like their GPI synch application:
You bring up the intriguing idea that the photos themselves can stitch together an actual “textured build”. On that front, start to wonder whether you don’t end up with a mash-up somewhere down the road:
- For an advanced version of a “build” use something like Stanford’s 3D camera: http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2008/march19/camera%20-031908.html
- Map the underlying skeleton of the building using something like Photosynth (which also gives you a deep source of information artefacts)
- Combine the two and import into 3DVIA, Sketch-Up, etc for some more “polished” work
- Probably script some stuff in here while we’re at it, using I’m sure LSL
- Load it up to a Google street view type of thing.
It’s the combination of technology with user-generated inputs that’s so interesting. After all, you can spend 100 years running around with a 3D camera or creating an algorithm to assess geo-positions, or you can count on people out there taking photos anyways and let them tag it with a geosynch iPhone for example.
its very “styley” in interface and interactions… but the utility beyond “photo album” style of map- i dont see.
The sence of place is marred by the static nature of the still photography. one feels no sence of the imediate, which is part immersion.
Even after adding avatars as the mediating interface, the app, like papervision( 2d flash) limited “fully 3d ” navigation at a constant presentation level, feels more presentational than confrontational. with is a key factor for in scene immersion psychologically.
i think it’ll just end up another tech demo for the portfolio.
BTW- the whole 3D MAP- mirror world meme— way overblown. Consider it the VIDEO phone circa ATT 1970.:)
Sure Larry – and I don’t think Photosynth is meant to be anything more than a presentation interface for photographic artefacts. At least, they’re not advertising it as such. All these tools and geotags and mapping of 3D models from photos and so on seem to be gaining traction which, when combined with 3D modeling using Sketch-Up and so on does make it seem like new types of representation of data where geo-position is important are arriving.
The work out of London for city planning and urban issues is a great practical use for this stuff, avatars or not, and is really compelling to look at if not necessarily participate in.
I’ve written elsewhere (who knows which post it was, I don’t tag very well) that my interest is NOT in augmented reality or mirror worlds. I’m far more interested in immersive environments. I’m also of the opinion that we can find clues for how these immersive environments will evolve by looking at what other tools and visual languages are evolving in related fields.
I DO think Photosynth, or at least the idea of photographic artefacts layered over 3D spaces, when combined with some of the other technologies that are evolving, does suggest that the mirror world will be far richer than a 3D version of a bunch of buildings, that it will have layers of data far different than how we think of information on “flat” Web pages, and that as these forms of visualization expand and improve and eventually add avatars that we’ll be opening up a new language for conceptualizing space and content.
My interest, however, as I say, is in extrapolating to immersive worlds, because its there that the deep sense of presence and, as you say, confrontation, not only allows us to access these deeper models for information display, but to combine those with avatar expression, identity, immersion, and emotion – and that it is THIS combination that will open the door to a paradigm shift that hopefully won’t go the way of the Video phone (which, by the way, CISCO is making every attempt to resurrect hehe).
It’s become so hard not to be cynical – “…steps to improve our copyright claim process…” sounds horribly like “you’ll be able to email DMCA reports instead of faxing them to us!” but doesn’t sound like they’re actually going to implement measures to reduce content-theft, decrease the time it takes to act on reports or actually remove any offending content (rather than just the vendors selling it).
Couple of additional questions:
Is it true that there were plans to move enforcement of the inworld permissions system from the client to the server ahead of open-sourcing the client code?
If so, why was the client open-sourced before this was implemented?
If this had been done would we still have as much content theft, assuming (perhaps incorrectly?) that it would have then been more difficult to hack around the permissions system?
What part, if any, did Cory Ondrejka play in these decisions?
What part, if any, did Philip Rosedale play in these decisions?
OK, maybe not the most compelling conspiracy theory but interesting suppositions anyway…
Yeah, Eris. It’s kinda sad, I find myself spending way too much time wondering what’s WRONG with them instead of what’s right, which is such a shame. Such creative people in SL, or is that inSL, and half their energies seem to go to trying to read the tea leaves of bad decisions, opaque communications, an impenetrable JIRA, poor outreach to potential and current partners (including the in world community), vague policy implementations or over-wrought ones, changes that are announced with much fanfare and then quietly dropped (age verification), etc.
Thank goodness Torley is being left alone to put out great tutorials and Sidewinder seems to be cut from the Google rather than the Linden cloth.
I’m goin to New York – maybe there’s someone down at the conference with some new cool toy to play around with, because fiddling with legal/TOS changes isn’t so much fun.
On 04.02.08 TomasG said:
It’s possible that they may have a problem with using the TOS to ban someone over the branding issue.
If they did ban someone using the TOS and the person they banned had the where with all to sue, there is case law that has declared the TOS is a “contract of adhesion” at least as far as it concerned the arbitration clause, the same might hold true in such a case.
(Jeez, did that sentence make any sense?)
Perhaps, they have already opened that Pandora’s Box.
Simulation games have always appealed to me, but I dream of seeing them go so much further in the ultimate gaming mash up someday. Imagine a platform similar to Second Life, or The Sims. The foundation of it is controlling your avatar/character, inhabi…
On 04.02.08 Alberik said:
I doubt that a lawyer advised them to incorporate the IP claims into the TOS. IP claims run against the whole world. TOS claims run against parties to the contract.
One problem is the contract of adhesion issue. The other is that by using the TOS in this way they may be abandoning or abridging their intellectual property claim against he whole world in favour of a contract claim that runs only against those party to the TOS.
As lawyers, the Lindens make great software engineers. As public relations people, the Lindens make great software engineers.
On 04.03.08 TomasG said:
I would question that they are great software engineers, based on their performance in that arena. Or at least on the performance of the product that they release on the world.
Threatening trademark transgressors with a ‘permaban’ is understandable on one level – really, what else have they got?
The most frustrating thing is that, while they waste time and effort on this trademark nonsense, user-content continues to get ripped off and resold inworld and they’ve barely even commented on that. So implicitly, protecting Linden trademarks is far more important than protecting the creative output of residents? That’s a PR gesture that only needs one middle finger…
On the positive side – totally agree about Sidewinder. At least someone within Linden understands how to manage a project AND the customer perception of that project, Sidewinder truly shines in this context. Torley is too uhm, saccharin for me, but he’s hard to dislike…
well teh video phone has been around now for a decade- as the webam… the main ” problem” solved was timeshifting — removing the issue of getting a video phonecall when in the shower…. althought the most prolific use for the one to one vid cam call has become again attached to nudity…lol
anyhow– attaching deep data to 3d has again been the goal for over a decade… X3D is 3d plus XML — specifically designed as the major extention of the earlier VRML language for this reason….
its success or failure though has been political and financial, now more than ever as the 3rd web3d bubble rages on and masses of newbies reinvent web3d wheels for fame and vc glory:)
every flash site is now a virtual world, and everything 3d is now avatars…..- this demo thankfully excluded- which is why i dont see it as a future of the metaverse interface, but only , and it seem we agree, as a single presentation interface that may or may not offer any real power vs many others that will be shown.
On 04.03.08 paiskidd said:
I think it is interesting that Nortel took a look at SL. I think their angle is more how to create a pull for their own technology and services than to make use of virtual worlds for their corporate machinations, but I could be misreading.
I don’t think that the kind of event he describes – a virtual auditorium filled with people in a lecture mode for presentation – is a great strength of SL. The talks (that were probably similar to the Nortel event) I went to last weekend in SL were not a great experience, other than the ability to ask questions (via chat). Thus, there was interactivity and immediacy as a plus, but lag/slow-rez as a minus. (for instance, none of the slides were visible until half way through because of slow-rezzing).
I do teleconferences, video teleconferences, webcasts, ‘live meeting’, and so forth constantly. I also have to travel for meetings, and regret the time, cost, and carbonfoot print of jetting to meetings. We could really use better ways to meet that don’t require travel, but I can’t say that being an avatar at a meeting will help. I was hopeful to gain insight as to how this may have been attempted in this Nortel experiment, but am not seeing it yet. Still looking…
* Pais now begins to meditate using the mantra: “use the right tool for the task” *
Interesting here in New York Pais that a few of the big “sell points” of some of the technologies is the interface with other communication channels. Looked at one platform where you are in a virtual space and can make a phone call – a little cell phone pops open, you dial the number, and it connects you from within the world by phone. Similarly, you can TAKE a call from within the world.
The other issue is that until SL includes proper document sharing and porting in of external content, like PowerPoint pages etc. a proper collaborative space is tricky. Rivers Run Red has done a little app that uses a Web work-around and HTML on a prim I believe, which also gets us a little closer.
I talked to Glen at the SL booth about HTML on a prim and this very issue of bringing in content, and while he made some nice murmurs about it, I’m under the impression that its proven to be a tougher nut to crack than they may have initially thought (and hey, there’s been a project kicking around for years now, check the JIRA or is it the WIKI). Security holes and the challenge, as Glen said, of landing in a sim and having 200 prims floating around with Web pages is a danger. He made the interesting point however that what they’re looking at is having TEXTURES load the pages.
The combination of seamless voice properly integrated with phones, a light client, and the ability to pull documents, PPT, whatever into the space starts to make it feel like what companies want – a 3D version of a Web meeting.
I’m sort of fascinated, as you know, with the “stuff” beyond that, which is acclimatizing companies to start thinking about projects, collaboration, ideas and concepts in 3D itself rather than just thinking of 3D worlds as a stand-in and slightly clunkier version than a meat space session, whether we’re saving the planet or not (and even on this topic, there’s debate of course).
So, in the short term – some improved technologies, especially integrating with voice and phone, other platforms that may do virtual meetings a lot better than SL, with SL sort of limping along patching some stuff on top, but holding on, in my opinion, to its deeper potential as a creative, conceptual space that won’t just change how we have meetings, but how we think about what we usually talk about or learn at those meetings.
[...] IBM’s “gated” SL communities Posted on April 3, 2008 by Morris Vig IBM announced that they will be hosting private sims on the SL grid, but on their servers in their server farms. Personally, I couldn’t care less. Let the business-types mingle amongst themselves, which is somewhat in line with what Dusan Writer says. [...]
I have an ad-blocker running in my web-browser so that i never have to see click-able ad’s which i’ll never click on.
So i won’t need an ad-blocker in SL? I’ll just learn to avoid all ad-embedded furniture. I’ll also learn to avoid the crowds of anonymous penniless noobs desperately clicking on sky-high piles of free furniture.
Haha that’s what I said to them Eris, asking whether it isn’t just a glorified sort of camping. They claim they’ve built something in that, I suppose, limits how many clicks or something. Although really, it seems like it’s so hackable and ridiculous. Surely they’re smart enough to realize that sims will start piling up clickable junk – kind of like camping piles but in this case someone else pays!
Great article, Dusan. The fun I had reading it made up for the frustration I shared in your description of what appears to be a dysfunctional family called “Linden”.
If it makes you feel any better Pais, at least the IBM guys are fun to hang with….like little kids, cooing and gushing and sometimes burping on your shirt, holding up little rattles or teddy bears to you with this kind of wonder at their offering (and the ability to even be able to offer it).
For all the talk about Big Blue and hiding sims behind their magic wall, the people themselves are truly hobby-like in their enthusiasm, which doesn’t mean that they don’t plan to make money at it (they were quite frank about it, in fact, in a totally transparent and almost delightful way, kind of like, well, kids who get a second dessert) just that they’re a lot more peppy and invigorated than the others.
Hmm. This is turning into a post of its own I think. I always feel like people view IBM with suspicion and I’ve never understood why. “Corporate campers” I think Prok calls them. I’d better double check my analysis – maybe they’re more Stepford than I realize. In the meantime, gotta clean that drool off my shoulder and call it a conference.
Remotely monitoring conversations within Second Life is against the TOS, so perhaps there’s something that could be done with this, but my understanding is that they are going to try to find landlords or owners who will allow these signs and objects to be deployed inworld in SL.
So the first thing to do is to ban Ancient Shriner, the avatar associated with this awful scheme that is going to scrape data from people without their knowing and consent, from all appearances, and tape their conversations for “buzz words. You can do that much as a sign of protest. And also it makes sense to refrain from buying ad space or deploying the signs on your land.
Ancient Shriner is already defacing Second Life everywhere with huge, ugly ad towers with taunting textures about “land fascists” who protest against the signs, and ads for cheapy Internet sites and gadgets that aren’t even inworld businesses. He didn’t put the land to sale, so technically you can’t make the new ad policy the Lindens have “stick”. Still, since he claims he is willing to take down some of these towers or minimize them or have only one per sim (he said all three things to me but none of them are true — all the signs are still in place), he should be asked to do it.
Likely nothing less than a class action suit against these people in RL would work and that has its complications.
Interesting interpretation of what was being said. Unfortunatly one key element of the entire Slippcat program was forgotten or ignored – one that is probably an essential element of Slippcat – “Empowered Engagement” A buzzword yes, but alos a philosophical change in advertising.
WIth the Slippcat system – all control is put in the hands of the user. The user (consumer) has no obligation to click on an object. They are not being forced to stare at ugly billboards, noisy television sets or any other form of push advertising. With Slippcat the user can choose to pull information from an object – and even then they can choose what degree of information they want from an object.
As for content developers hating us – perhaps those who compete with us in making branded items without the permission of the brand owners – but the developers who are building one of a kind unique items, the ones who are creating innovative, eye catching designs that break from the norm – we not only do not compete with them but applaud them.
These virtual worlds open the door for so much creativity, so much experimentation that the best always stands out – and who knows – perhaps soon that degree of excellence may well result in real life recognition – beyond a pat on the back and a hearty well done, but into a design contract with a real life company.
Instead of using virtual worlds as a utopian hideaway, we can really draw them into everyday lives by using them as extentions of our lives – making virtual worlds as indespensable as e-mail.
Sorry but this Slippcat nonsense has made me laugh more then anything else SL-related in months, good since it was all getting a bit serious and depressing.
It won’t work. You cannot gather marketing information worth a damn from anonymous users or from users who go to extraordinary creative lengths to maintain an alternative identity for themselves. You’d be counting clicks for no reason whatsoever except that someone might pay you to count them – except they won’t, no-one with a marketing budget of any value is that dumb.
Advertising at its best can be an extraordinarily creative form of communication. This is not advertising, it’s spam dressed as furniture. Trying to justify spam with buzz-words, promises of new frontiers or any other marketing bull-doodoo is just silly. Who do you think will want that new couch which repeatedly offers to make your penis larger…unless, of course, it actually can?
Why would a big-name retailer pay you to pay users to click furniture to get paid? What are you delivering to the retailer except empty clicks? There is a model for this that just might work (it’s one i prepared earlier: http://nautilina.wordpress.com/2008/02/20/never-out-of-stock/ ), it’s called “Selling People Stuff They Want to Buy” (excuse the jargon) and it’s quite successful sometimes because apparently the end-user gives YOU money and not the other way around. I know it’s radical, a philosophical change you might say, but think about it…
A utopian hideaway? So far, that seems to be what a lot of people want – do you think everyone stands around wishing the advertising would hurry up and get here? It’s really a bit pathetic if this is all we can come up with – apply click-thru advertising to virtual worlds…sigh…
There are ways to advertise and market in virtual worlds, the Greenies build is maybe the most obvious example to date – but of course to achieve that high standard you actually need to have some original ideas and talent, the two things apparently missing from Slippcat.
A click-thru ad (or its equivalent) now referred to as “Empowered Engagement” is really very funny. If a career in virtual spam falls thru’ then maybe try stand-up comedy? Maybe we could be a double act…
Antony, I applaud your recognition of in world content developers. Your idea of finally somehow making that bridge between the virtual and the real (with a virtual couch being the first step in hitting the highway to IKEA) is intriguing, if you can pull it off (but better watch out for all those slap happy utopians!)
But look, and in all fairness, I miss a lot. Ask anyone.
I’m usually the last one to understand a joke. People say stuff and I just sort of stare blankly, I have this delayed reaction thing going on.
And to top it off there was a lot of terminology at the conference that left me baffled so obviously I’m not the most trustworthy interpreter of what was said. (Can you forward some definitions for me please for: monetizing the space, measuring engagement, and intentional transparency?)
So help me out here, because I wonder how my “interesting interpretation” (very kind of you to find it interesting) missed a key element, or which elements I’m reading into all of this that are erroneous?
You say that I missed “Empowered Engagement”. By which you say it’s a revolution in advertising – push, not pull. Consumer choice! Levels of engagement, based on their own desires and needs and preferences.
So just fill me in a little more on that part first. Because how is that MORE choice than, say a banner ad? And if I’m watching TV (I have a remote, so it’s not so hard to choose to engage and disengage with that really either), and one of those ads comes on advertising Chia Pets don’t I have a choice to call it? Or to visit their Web site and order it?
Oh, or say I’m walking down the street, and I pass a store, and there’s a display in the window about a sale but it doesn’t give a lot of detail, just says “Sale”, don’t I have a choice whether to walk into the store to find out more? And once I’m in the store don’t I have a choice to buy?
And P.S. – if you’ve ever seen a line-up outside of A&F then you’ll know that there’s something very, um, engaging to the people who shop there, so you can’t claim that it’s lacking that.
Just fill in the blanks for me, because at each step in any of those chains – banner ad, 1-800 number, retail store – I have the choice as a consumer to more deeply engage with the brand experience. In what way does Slippcat differ from that again?
So then that second thing. If this is all pull and no push, is information EVER gathered on consumers/avatars without their choice or explicit permission? Do you use the avatar “look at” coordinates to track eyeballs on a sign for example? Do you gather any “buzz words” from the public chat on what was said in the vicinity of a sign or item? Do you ever link back to a user ID number? Do users who have been tracked get flagged that they’ve been tracked? Is there an opt-in/opt-out process for collecting this data? Do you share this data on request with anyone from whom it has been collected?
Because if there’s data being collected, even without it being connected to an avatar’s name, then there’s *some* stuff that’s *NOT* pull isn’t there? You’re collecting stuff from people and it’s not because they are ‘empowered and engaged’ it’s because they’re standing NEAR something.
And if they happen to be cuddling on their couch at home and mention a few buzz words in the vicinity, well…I suppose those buzz words might be engaging to some people, and others kind of like being looked at and listened to, but others maybe not so much.
It’s sort of interesting timing, because there was an editorial in the New York Times today about how Web companies are keeping a lot more data than they let on. I’m sure you read it, but a few little clips:
“(Technology companies) are spying on you. …(They’re) record(ing) the sites you visit, the ads you click on, even the words you enter into search engines – information that some hold onto forever. They’re not telling you they’re doing it, and they’re not asking permission. …
The driving force behind this prying is commerce. The big growth area in online advertising right now is “behavioral targeting’.
The Federal Trade Commission has proposed self-regulatory guidelines for companies that do behavioral targeting…The founders wrote the Fourth Amendment – guaranteeing protection against illegal search and seizure – at a time when most were concerned about protecting the privacy of their homes and bodies…(and) have been extended to cover telephone communications. Now work has to be done to give Internet activities the same level of privacy protection.”
And finally, I’m going to leave it to others to comment on how we should stop using virtual worlds as a utopian hideaway. I’ve been mistaken for an augmentationist so I don’t have a lot of street cred in that respect (although I beg to differ and feel I immerse with the best of them).
But I will say that virtual worlds do offer us a form of utopia, because they allow us to imagine different futures, and to explore the possibilities of living, thinking, working and playing within different conceptual models, including the one where advertisers aren’t measuring every click and move, and my furniture doesn’t hand out Lindens like coins stuck between the cushions to every friend who pops by for tea.
@ Eris – geez thanks…now I have to get an MBA to understand this new “Selling People Stuff They Want to Buy” idea (which book was that in? I suspect Tom Peters but maybe it hasn’t hit the shelves yet??)
Haven’t you HEARD Eris? The future is free! Says so in Wired! The inventors of the Long Tail! (I have only BEGUN to debunk!
Anyways, I trust the MTV lady, who made the very valid point that we’re suckers for buying stuff because it helps to make us feel SPECIAL. And we all wanna feel special. And I don’t want to feel like I have to hide the furniture or plead with friends not to click it in order to cover for the fact that my pad is decked out with freebies that spit out payola.
I really wish that line worked though:
“Hey, come over to my place and experience the FUTURE of advertising. Yeah! Just click on my couch, and you’re glimpsing the next Google, baby.”
Somehow I see a lot of eye-rolling going on in addition to comments like “Oh, you finally got that thing to WORK did you” or “It’s not one of those Xcite compatible deals is it?”
(Um, not me, I mean people LIKE me would have friends like that).
OK, I’m off to come up with the NEW NEW future of advertising. I’ve been mulling around this idea about how you could get a LOT of attention if you interrupted events, like the Super Bowl, say, with branded messages. Forget push and pull, how about trap and slap! Just need a virtual world application – what about commercially sponsored SexGen beds that bleat out a little jingle at critical moments?
Oh Dusan… I came over at your call to read this, and now all I want to do is get into a really hot shower, scrub myself until I’m raw, find a way to scrub my brain until all memories of this… Slippcat… are gone, curl up under my duvet and never, ever wake up again to face a world containing people like that. This is beyond frightening an disgusting both.
I know I’m being tracked down and measured every time I pay my shopping in a supermarket. They analyse the things I buy, they know my patterns, they send me coupon codes for discounts on “just the products” I buy more often. I know this goes on all the time.
I also know that Google scans my Gmail account every day. Besides eliminating spam (for which I’m thankful!), they create a profile for me, and now target ads better, about things I’m potentially interested in. I even give them permission to do so — I’m usually logged in on Google Accounts when googling in, well, Google. So I know that the list of links I get as results is different from yours. Our tastes differ, and I get “targetted marketing” for it. For Google, I’m just an account — an email address — but they can tell their advertisers what exactly I like to see on the Internet.
The same happens with eBay and Amazon. They know what I like, what I search, and dynamically profile me, and present me the things I usually buy online.
I also know that Twitter has just one purpose — getting better tracking data. They have no other business model. They don’t sell ads (most people use Twitter-compatible thingies to tweet, and never bother to look at the site anyway, so ads are pretty worthless on their site anyway). They don’t sell “upgrade packages” (”now increase the number of characters you can tweet to your friends to 750 per message!”). No — all they do is scan what I type, link it to my email address, and sell the profile to online advertisers.
This goes on with practically everything I do on the Internet, and has been going on for quite some time. Sure, they might not know my real name and my real address — but they know, every time I log in “somewhere” on the Internet, what my tastes are. I’m tracked and profiled. I’m part of several marketing databases. I get targetted spamming. I can’t avoid it — unless, of course, I delete all my accounts and start from scratch (and even so, I’d be quickly tracked again).
Except on Second Life.
Now, well, the market opportunity is just too great to avoid. Sure, you can’t know what information an “avatar name” cointains — Linden Lab protects your real name. But — really?
All you need it to have sensors sending media parcel URLs to your avatar — that are no media parcel URLs at all, but links to external web servers which can easily check on your IP address. Combine that to a different database where you are, say, logged in with your Google Account or Yahoo ID, and it’s quite likely marketeers will be able to find a match. Run this for a while, and you, as a marketeer, will be pretty good at finding out avatar’s IP addresses (which will give you an approximate location) and their email addresses (from anywhere on eBay, Amazon, Google, or Yahoo).
So if I start buying a lot of shoes in SL, I might suddenly find out that Amazon starts displaying fashion books on the top of my searches, and DVDs like “The Devil Wears Prada”. eBay will automatically send me updates for shoes found for sale there. Yahoo and Google will suddenly display ads for Dolce & Gabbanna shoes. I might not relate the two things for a while, but… isn’t it something that marketeers would just love to have?
The technology is there. I don’t think we’re going to be able to avoid that — specially in Second Life, where it is so easy to do integration with external servers — like we can’t avoid to be tracked every time we visit a search engine or an online shopping guide. I wouldn’t call that “stupid” or “ridiculous” or “silly” or a “waste of money”. Marketeers know that their profiling data is not 100% accurate: I might one day search for virtual worlds, the next day on the current fashion in eye shadow colours, then the latest news from Apple, and finally do a random search for a Bible quote. What will the profiler be able to get out of this data? Will they present me ads for nice, discreet Macs in my favourite colour, that can be personally engraved with messages like “God Is Love”? Very likely, not. Tracking doesn’t work like that, and you require a bit more profile data to get a more accurate picture. Even if I’m no way near to look like a 20-something years old redhead in RL — and 99% of what I might buy in SL will never affect my decisions of what I can buy in RL — that is not an issue. Tracking software can still get some preferences out of my SL experience. They might be able to pick out my favourite colours. They might be able to figure out that I’m a “quick shopper” — spending more time looking at clothes than actually wearing them. They might see that I’m keen on following advice from fashion blogs — ie. I might be logged on WordPress, watch a fashionista blog, and then immediately go in-world, every time my favourite fashion advisor in SL puts up a picture of something in purple or beige. It doesn’t mean that I’m likely to buy mini-skirts in SL. But it can help marketing profilers to understand that I tend to buy beige or purple things.
So… do I like the idea that I’m being constantly tracked? Certainly not. Can I do anything about it? Probably not — we’ve lost that war on the Web, we will lose it on virtual worlds as well. Does it seriously hurt my privacy? Well, it’s a difficult question to answer. If it’s opt-in, it’s ok; if it provides at least an opt-out feature, it’s acceptable. If I can’t avoid it (the most likely case), it’s different — but I might not be able to do anything about it.
As to the virtual worlds suddenly targetting kids and teens… well… I have my thoughts about it. Teens are a market since they have money to spend and are easily persuaded/convinced (curiously enough, in my country, recently legislation was passed to limit certain ads specifically targeted to children, since they cannot understand the difference between “truth” an an “ad”). However, I always wondered why marketeers are so keen on the teen market — their money, even if easily spent, is limited by their parents’ budget. On the other hand, the 40+ market is so much more interesting: most people will have a stable life and enough money to spend — far more than the average teenager. They are, however, much more careful buyers. Interestingly enough, the small game developers (the ones selling millions of games with a low budget, but highly addictive, and charging US$10-20 with an easy download) are curiously aggressively targeting the female gamers, who have been seriously neglected by the first person shooters and other action-destruction games out there. Strange that this market goes unexplored in virtual worlds — when in Second Life it’s clear that the content for female avatars still surpasses what’s available for the male ones, both in quantity, quality, and even cost. Well, that’s what you get on a sales-driven economy — content designers in SL create what is sellable, not what marketeers think will sell!
My surprise is not that so many different “virtual worlds for kids” are popping up. They know that teenagers have very short attention spans, and will hop crazily across all these new options — while they get bored with SL after a few minutes (see how small the Teen Grid is, when compared to the Adult Grid). Whereas Second Life tends to have much older people around — who stay around for years, and are constantly consuming content and very well willing to pay for it.
I still find it ironic, Gwyn, that the New York Time chimed in on this issue today, giving some intriguing examples of how all this tracking ALSO plays out, in addition to the D&G shoe ads:
“The information, however, gets…a lot more sensitive. Tech companies can keep track of when a particular Internet user looks up Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, adult Web sites, buys cancer drugs online or participates in anti-government discussion groups.
Serving up ads based on behavioral targeting can itself be an invasion of privacy, especially when the information used is personal. (”Hmm…I wonder why I always get those drug-rehab ads when I surf the Internet on Jane’s laptop?”)
There is..no guarantee that the information will stay with the company that collected it. It can be sold to employers or insurance companies, which have financial motives for wanting to know if their workers and policyholders are alcoholics or have AIDS. It could also end up with the government, which needs only to serve a subpoena to get it).”
Now, in Second Life we have the veil of anonymity. HOWEVER, Van Zyl is imploring us:
“Instead of using virtual worlds as a utopian hideaway, we can really draw them into everyday lives by using them as extentions of our lives – making virtual worlds as indespensable as e-mail.”
So, here’s the thing…first time you click that couch, and then decide to go to that Web site where more information about the couch is available, well…you’re now part of the big old Internet data stream, and suddenly all your in-world purchases and clicks can theoretically be connected to your very real world identity.
The FTC is calling for self regulation. That’s fine. But its also been suggested that a “do-not-track” list be established for those who prefer to opt out. Clear standards for opting in. Guidance as to what information is collected, what the rules should be about selling it and sharing it, and what the rights of the person being tracked are in the same regard.
I’m all for metrics. Companies have a right to measure the success of their spend. But I also want the right to opt out, to know when I’m in a space where I AM being measured (much as you KNOW when you’re using Google), and have access to clear privacy and data collection policies of the companies doing the collecting.
As for the content developers, I hope they all take heart in his hope that the excellent product they create “may well result in real life recognition – beyond a pat on the back and a hearty well done, but into a design contract with a real life company”.
Finally, I don’t mean to imply, if I did, that any of what Slippcat is doing is a waste of money for the advertisers. It’s a nice little business model. I think if they take a great deal of care in the coming months to reach out to the content creators they might even get some product more deeply placed into the market than just a bunch of banners and kiosks and freebies, and even if they don’t it will take a very long time before anyone cares that they’re being measured except for a small circle of people who think too much, or get confused too easily (like me), and who, now that you mention it, really really needs a new pair of shoes.
Dusan, I definitely agree with you that I’m not too keen on having anyone to know when I click, for instance, by mistake, on an ad that leads to a porn website, an online casino, one that sells illegal drugs, or a paedophilia data haven — and suddenly having all bells ringing on some police station near my home. I think there have to be limits somewhere to our privacy, but I’m rather pessimistic — privacy is becoming one of the more elusive things to have these days. One day our only “opt-out” option will be to turn the computer off and disconnect it from the ‘net if we wish to make sure that nobody is doing all sorts of silly correlations with the random browsing on the Web.
At some stage we could still claim that nobody could do those correlations fast enough, with the terabytes and terabytes of data out there. Now Google stores 6 billion websites — in memory! — and can locate millions of links in less than a fifth of a second.
There’s one thing Slippcat and the other meta-scavengers seems to be missing in all their plans to “monetize the space”. We, the residents, have the same build tools they do – and in some less-reputable cases, better tools. If they introduce spam-furniture or some other unwelcome marketing device then how long before some copybot-wielding resident strips that functionality out of the object and makes it available everywhere in neutered form? My guess would be about 20 minutes and altho i’d condemn any other content theft within SL i think i’d be cheering that one on – hypocritical i know!
I’m not against advertising or marketing within SL, just make it good advertising. I think it’s like the difference between the junk mail that lands on your doormat and the IKEA (or any other furniture retailer’s) catalogue you picked up in-store. They’re both advertising but one is welcome, giving you information you want, while the other is unsolicited, probably badly targeted and wasteful of resources. If advertisers and marketeers can provide compelling and engaging advertising within virtual worlds then great, but virtual equivalents of junk mail or will fail every time.
This nonsense just won’t work in SL – altho it might in other virtual worlds, particularly (sadly) the ones populated by kids. Maybe one of the most unique things about SL is the fact that its population is so uniquely armed to defend itself from these kind of (potentially unwelcome) incursions?
On 04.07.08 Corcosman Voom said:
“it seems like it’s so hackable”
Perhaps we can expect a continual parade of Clickbots collecting their limit of lindens then instantly coming back with a new identity. The humans may get squeezed completely off the grid.
And the Lab will have huge numbers of new signups to point to – “More than eight billion new accounts in the last 90 days!”
And as a follow-up comment, I’m stuck with a whack of sims at the old price. It’s a major chunk of change, sure. And I understand why people might feel like they’ve had the wind knocked out of their sails. I suppose I feel lucky, was about to order 4 more, so I seemed to have timed my hesitation OK. Unfortunately for some, real estate in SL isn’t so much as an investment as space upon which to develop assets and services. I haven’t thought through the economics of SL deeply enough to know whether this is a bad thing, just have the feeling it’s an inevitable one.
On 04.08.08 HoobeeyuHoobinoo said:
We need to organize some virtual civil disobedience, form a players’ union.
I should call myself lucky because all land but 6144sqm on my SIMs is sold – the decrease in SIM value doesn’t hit me but parcel owners. I already got my initial investment back – and now really praise myself that from start on I gave buyers a much lower monthly cost to pay than renters, encouraging them to buy and not rent.
It all points to OpenCroquet. This is a open source virtual world api and engine, which can run incorporate external content, and operate point-to-point or client-server. I don’t understand why it is not catching on faster than it seems to be. http://opencroquet.org/index.php/Main_Page
What a GREAT article… you really captured my feelings of the last 4 months in a way I’ve been looking to word them, but I guess I won’t need to now
Yes the ‘metaverse’ is still being developed, no its not ready for mainstream, yes a lot of empty promises are being made, no it won’t be ready tomorrow, yes it will take time to find application to create a valuable contribution to everyday life by individual projects, no there is nothing wrong with the commerce taking place – just don’t conclude a failure of the platform because they fail to address their audiences, yes its time to look further then just Second Life, no you won’t create critical mass just because you tell ‘the masses’ to rush in.
Croquet rocks. There’s so much heart and effort going into it, the tutorials being put up are wonderful, it’s a really shining community of developers. And the architecture is genius. Unfortunately, and I think it’s recognized by the developers themselves, its coming across as by academics for academics, other than the work of Qwak which does the stuff you say but doesn’t have avatar expression. It DOES have integration of external elements…HTML, documents, PPT, video, worlds within worlds, etc. But somehow the resistance point by the developers to figure out whether/how/if it should be montetized at all might be hampering buy-in by the larger corporations (for now, anyways).
If Qwak was joined by another, sort of a Red Hat Linux kind of thing and if the development community could come up with a plan to attract more talent, I think Croquet has legs…it’s brilliant. Especially for things like 3D visualization, and more advanced applications, and now with Blender being patched in there’s some very cool stuff happening. (Can someone explain how Cobalt fits in though? And I mean that as a total newbie question).
Plus, Croquet is scaleable, and the P2P thing is genius.
Great platform. And advocacy towards academia, which is fine, because companies will catch on sooner or later. Rumour is that Cisco might buy out Qwak, maybe that will give it the boost it needs.
This is an interesting one, been back and forth over it. Ultimately more people owning more land in SL has to be a good thing, so from that viewpoint it’s great.
I have to welcome it from a selfish standpoint too, i’ve been dithering about buying my first island for 2 years – i think this just swayed the decision slightly! Life Lesson: be more patient, sometimes it pays.
On the downside, I can’t escape the feeling Linden just did to land-dealers what they do to ripped-off content-creators every other day. Still, maybe it’s all to the common good?
I think a more significant announcement and one that goes hand in hand with the price drop is the change with regard to openspace sims. Get 4 times the land area now 512x 512 meters & the same number of prims, 15000 for the same dollar as an old small sim. Why would you want to be on a crowded Mainland sim and have to rez all that shit. By distributing content over 4 times the area, you get less lag.
@jeanricard: It will be interesting to see if they change the price for the open space SIMs too. They just made them a fair deal a few weeks ago, if they want them to stay a fair deal, they have to lower them to 250 USD too. I’m really waiting for the next blog post about that, Jack announced one for maybe even today.
On 04.09.08 James Morgan said:
@jeanricard…As I understand it, when you buy an Open Space sim, the processor that it is tied to may not be on the same server as your other sims. Meaning that you may get unlucky enough to have one sim linked with 3 others that have a bunch of laggy scripts and drags the processor speed (and your sim) down with it.
Personally, I think when you buy land in SL to rent out or flip, then you are speculating. And there are risks so you should be prepared for them. Anyone who goes into speculative activities without the thought that they may lose their shirts is extremely naive.
I have a feeling, although I’m not sure (too lazy to look it up, it’s gray and rainy and it leaves me thoughtful but unproductive) that if you buy 4 Open Space sims they put them on the same server.
But one of the things I’m curious about is if the sims are spread across 4 “regions” does each region support 40 avatars? Or does it support 10/region. (Or whatever the number is, can’t remember the max per region, and I realize it adjusts for other things).
If each Open Space region supports 40, it would mean that one server could support 160 users and 15,000 prims. If an Open Space region only support 1/4 of the user limit, is 10 sufficient, or does the entire server itself support 40? In which case, if you’re sharing an Open Space region with someone else on the same server, what if they reach the 40 limit? Are you left locked out of your empty Open Space region because it’s “full”?
Daniel – maybe you can clarify, I think you know more about this than some of us!
On 04.10.08 sachamagne said:
I think it’s kinda freaking that pple want rely they RL life income based on a GAME. SL is a game after all!
I’m still astonished when pple take SL business that seriously. How pple can pretend to “invest” Real money in a world that could be switch off in less than a minut ( sudo init 0) ?
Investment means Cash and Benefits. Do you know any REAL market that could only bring benefits ? Their is always a looser for a winner…
I’m not a landlord, just a brat that have fun with few sims I owns. I knew it will be a loss the minut I order them and I don’t intend to make any profit renting them too. For my daily living I got a Real Job !
Linden made a good move with the cost reduction. The ticket will lure pple to buy new sims that will give LL more montly revenue !
I have very mixed feelings about both the price reduction and the clarification with that small “peace offering” to those who bought within the last few days.
For fun and self users the price drop is great. For land business it might be a killer, especially reading some comments like “How cool, I now will buy a SIM/a pack of SIMs and start a land business.” – they only see the purchase price and not the monthly costs that are the real killer. Land business isn’t an automatic gold mine. I see lots of new estate land showing up – but where are all the new folks who have to rent/buy on those new SIMs to cover the monthly costs for the estate owner? In german we have a saying “zuviele Häuptlinge – zuwenig Indianer —- too many chiefs, too little indians”. Competition, that already is hard in the land business, will get worse. Some will even offer below cost rents/tiers to keep the monthly loss by empty land as low as possible. Within a couple of months quite a few of the over optimistic new landlords will realize that it doesn’t work out, they will give up, might even abandon their SIMs just to not having to pay next months 295 USD. This will not only be bad for them, but for their parcel renters/owners too, who will be left with nothing when LL reclaims the SIMs.
There is quite a bit of gloating about the bad big real estate companies who sell/rent out estate land. Well, folks, with competition going up and rents/tiers going down: will they still be able to offer great public freebies for their renters/parcel owners, like free parks, landscaping and so on? When they have to lower their rents/tiers, they might have to take away those benefits and just sell/rent out 100 percent of their land to make months end.
Now to the peace offering to recent buyers. I’m especially upset about the more or less non-existing offer for those who bought open space SIMs after the recent policy change in march. LL dragged hundreds of people into buying them at 415 USD within a single month – and now they lower the price to 250 with offering a reparation for only a fraction of them who bought within the last few days. Yes, concierge says “you can give them back if you gout them in the last 30 days, we won’t even take the usual 100 USD restocking fee, then you can buy again at the lower price” – but honestly: I put so many hours of work into my private new one, I would be nuts to give it up and do all the work again to get 165 USD back. LL hopes that many think that way and just swallow the pill. There would be such an easy solution: just give all those, who bought after the policy change (and often only BECAUSE of that policy change) another 2 months with out the 75 USD monthly fee. Why this stupid chaos of “give back, get your money back, buy new”? Heck, even if they would only offer a single month without fee it would be a great sign of respect for those who put lots of real money into LL. (Especially with the performance bug for open space SIMs introduced with H4 that made them not really usuable for 10 or more days now and only will be cleaned up with the next server software update.)
Oh well. Looking back at how LL made decisions during my time here I have to say: business as usual.
Danny
On 04.10.08 icha said:
“How pple can pretend to “invest” Real money in a world that could be switch off in less than a minut ( sudo init 0) ?” Yes, I wonder about this too. Why, for example, does Microsoft want to buy Yahoo? Don’t they realize it can be switched off in less than a minute? It scares me to death to put my money in the bank for the very same reason. I always ask the teller about the “less than a minute” factor and they reassure me that it isn’t in the bank’s interest to arbitrarily shut down their computers even if it were to take less than a second (pull plug from wall)! I am glad that I am not the only one who feels this way. I was starting to feel like an isolated, paranoid basement dweller.
I wonder why they’re only thinking about selling “real-life items.”
Imagine if “Billboards of Edmonton, Inc.” only let you advertise things not sold in Edmonton!
On 04.10.08 sachamagne said:
Real banks are protected by laws, at least in my country.
I remembered the “.com” phenomen when everybody should have been billionair within a day. We know how it end.
My company I work for recently bought a competitor. Most of the pple their complain their “stock options” worth nothing and wasn’t included in the deal… Actually they want to sue the new comp to claim compensation… funny…
Is it written somewhere that stock-options are real money ?
I doubt so… So is SL, a Game
I was sorta just making fun rather than trying to make a substantive point. I concede that running a business in SL is much riskier than depositing your cash in a bank because SL’s invisible hand is often the mailed fist of Linden Lab. However, the “SL is just a GAME” meme gets under my skin because people use it as though it’s understood and agreed that “Just Games” have no value outside of consumerist notions of “fun”.
I don’t like to compartmentalize my psyche in the manner the “just a game” crowd thinks is the only and “healthy” way to organize our reality. However, in the interest of full disclosure, I did try to buy a candy bar with Monopoly money when I was a kid. Perhaps my confusion started then.
Maybe Linden should put the ‘The Love Machine’ on the web so we can all click on it – altho’ it might need a ‘Kelis Button’ (”I hate you so much right now!”) fitted on it too?
With all my respect to you, I don’t quite understand your point, Dusan. Let me list some topics you were discussing in this article with a short comment.
1. THERE IS NO TECHNOLOGY and CAN NEVER BE that would protect content in a way you are asking for. In order to be rendered on your screen ALL objects and images MUST be decoded inside your viewer no matter what encryption or anything would be used. Even if LL wouldn’t open the source code of their viewer it would be reverse-engineered by someone, ‘patched’ and those ‘patches’ would be selling in the same way as they sell ‘decoders’ to the videogame boxes (if I remember the statistics right about 70% of UK gamers use them). THERE IS NO SUCH THING as ‘copy-protection’ in digital world and will never be. That’s the REALITY (for more than 2 decades). Why LL is to blame personally for this FACT? I don’t quite get it, sorry.
2. IMHO, land is not an ‘idea’, it’s a METAPHOR. You and many people (some of the 13 million, maybe even the majority) feel comfortable with this METAPHOR… how about the rest 6 something billion people on this planet? Are you sure they like it as much as you do? And it’s not quite true by the way… it’s not the ‘land’ that counts in SL, it’s SPACE and the ability to build or buy something, place it there (in that space you own) and ‘OWN’ it. So, the psychologically important is the ’sense of ownership’ in SPACE/items and their persistense (you log off but you know that IT’S ALL THERE). This sense of ownership doesn’t depend on price. So, basically, the END USERS, who don’t create, they just build a composition of objects and environment… they don’t give a s…t about ‘price’, oh! no! they do, they want it to be FREE as everything else on the Internet pretty much IS (didn’t you notice?).
3. As to the ‘economy’ argument… did you EVER consider to balance the real expences ABSOLUTELY necessary to build a CIVILIZED business in VW with a customer support, fast response, personnel talking to people in a civilized way and the amount of money that it MAY make? The examples of content and services built in SL so far don’t impress me, sorry, they are all built on a principle: “My clients SWALLOW what I do ‘as it is’, I can not and will not do anything else, it would be too expensive”. Hence the abandoned vendors, IM me, I will log-in in no more than a couple of hours… Is it a ‘business’? Nope. It’s a PATCH, or ‘lemonade stand’ if you liked that mepaphor more. There’s no sufficient DEMAND for products and services to build a CIVILIZED business, I’m telling you. Some people had a DREAM, that as soon as the ‘mass customer’ will come to SL there WILL be enough demand – it hasn’t happened so far, maybe it will, but I think that the main obstacle were technical limitations (maximum number of avatars in the sim in the first place).
So… really… what’s your point, Dusan? You want to suggest an alternative program supported by numbers? I mean REAL program. Please do it ASAP.
I don’t believe content can be protected, which doesn’t mean people can’t try, I just don’t think I’m going to be getting into the IP business any time soon.
Space/land…same thing, not sure what you mean? I call it an idea, you call it metaphor, I call it land you call it space.
I’m not sure which “economy argument” you’re referring to? You sound as if you’re referring to a discussion of how real world companies can make money in SL? I’m referring to the fact that for all the discussion about servers and open source and all those copiable objects that the only real economy that matters is the marketplace for ideas.
And as far as I can tell, I wasn’t offering any prescriptives, either for Linden Labs, businesses, coders or others. It’s just me with my spaghetti plate of thoughts, so I’m afraid that for this post I have nothing to offer as far as alternatives.
It’s just my little window into the issues of the day in SL, by virtue of which it doesn’t make a lot of sense, I don’t give a lot of guidance on where it’s going, and it’s time for me to crash now, so we’ll have to pick this up in the morning.
I found this to be an interesting article (although I’m not sure all your ‘future’ predictions are dead on target… ).
Virtual Worlds (and our one especially) are indeed more about creativity and ideas than any first life world will ever be. It’s easy to have luxury here, so there’s no point in gaining as much (virtual) wealth as you can. Land is (fairly) cheap, so there’s no much status to achieve by owning a lot. It’s the ideas and how you execute it that count. I’m am bound to be more impressed by someone who can build, script, animate, … than by someone who has 50k L$ on his balance to spend.
PS. Microsoft pontificating on what the Metaverse should be, which is a mirror world, but hopefully shinier with a proprietary operating system. => LMPAO! Lovely sentence. =)
My apologies, Dusan if the question about your personal suggestions sounded ‘aggressive’ or something, but it’s just about time to abandon thea Wicked Witch of the Second Life style FOREVER and start talking POSITIVELY, you know?
What would you suggest as a reasonable program for SL (and other VW) development? How should they proceede in your opinion?
Also, you came up with a brilliant words once: “a platform for story-telling”. That’s a great achievement, I can tell you. Now, here’s a couple of questions in this regard:
1. WHO will be telling stories?
2. WHAT kind of a stories that might be?
Prompt: Success stories of a “How I made my first million in Second Life” kind are not an option, it’s OVER.
Awwww what a nice way to wake up, reading your replies.
And yeah, I was a bit cranky Alex. I’m sooooo tired of all the crashy coding copyright moaning (not that a great deal of it isn’t justified), and I’m sorry if I sounded aggressive back or contributed to it, the whole point of my piece was to try to express what I see as the dominant moods and themes (or MY dominant moods and themes) which distracts (me at least) from the real discoveries to be had.
I’m trying to make the point that “Linden is making itself irrelevant” because we spend too much time worrying about Linden and not enough time trailing Bettina around the grid to see what tales people are telling.
My story box post is how I feel on good days, but also that the tensions produced in virtual worlds are a source of deep creativity and change.
Morning, Dusan.
Yes, I agree with you when you are talking about ‘tensions’, but… Who said it will be without them? That’s the whole point – this is a NEW THING, it is DIFFERENT (because of the highly immersive nature of the experience). Immersiveness means two things (and you can’t get one without another):
1. People get involved much more
2. If disappointed they will get frustrated MUCH MORE.
See what I mean?
Now, here’s my humble opinion: we (the people) need to LEARN how to use this thing WISELY. This in it’s turn requires us to think, discuss the possible solutions in a positive manner, make decisions (personal and as a community), ACT UPON.
What’s the main obstacle right now? Again, IMHO, the obstacle is the ANONYMITY. ‘Ideas’ are fine, but the ability to ACT upon ideas is closely related to the real life standing, abilities and resources. People who want to ’stay avatars’ – are NOT the type of ‘community’ that will ACT as a whole, see what I mean?
Also, as I said above, there’s not enough DEMAND for a grass-root growth of businesses YET. We all need to proliferate the idea of OPPORTUNITIES, available in VWs, not scare people to death with the negative experiences we all had at least once in a while.
Also, it’s high time for us all to realize that SL as many other things before is just another USEFUL TOOL for the humanity, no more, but no less! Well… it’s a powerful tool I must addmit… which only means that we all need to use it WISELY.
Personaly, I just don’t read posts on the multiple blogs I read every day apparently NOT leading to a consensus or a development of one. It’s always pretty much obvious whether a person wants to ‘change the life to better’ if you will or just to pore an ocean of personal dissatisfaction on the poor reader’s head.
So, maybe you explore the issue of anonymity and it’s consequences some day? I think – THAT is the main root of the frustrations you were talking about.
Regards.
[...] Content is Copiable, Land is Free, Long Live the Creators – Interesting pondering over Virtual Worlds by Dusan Writer. Although I don’t agree with all of her future predictions, imho, she points out some real issues and possibilities. [...]
On 04.14.08 janedoe2008 said:
EDITA KAYE, THE “SKINNY PILL FOR KIDS,” AND THE ASSOCIATION OF VIRTUAL WORLDS
There is a certain species of entrepreneur that capitalizes on the human desire for overnight solutions to intractable problems. Throughout human history, they have lurked in the shadows of the marketplace, eager to regale consumers with news of their miracle cures. In their haste to turn a profit, they often overlook minor details such as the product’s effectiveness and safety.
One might hope that our scientifically saturated era would be immune to bogus pitches, but the opposite is true. Sadly, exaggerated marketing appeals are common in the computer industry. Indeed, they seem to thrive when emerging technologies are dimly understood by the general population.
The myth of expertise camouflages holes in the huckster’s pitch, and problems remain hidden until the contract is signed and the check is cashed.
A few highly publicized scams and failures can cripple a young industry before it even has a chance to get off the ground. As an entrepreneur who cares deeply about the future of virtual worlds, I was surprised to stumble across this hyperbolic “get rich quick” rhetoric in an advertisement for Edita Kaye’s book Virtual Worlds: The Next Big Thing. My curiosity sparked, I turned to Google. Here I found a long entrepreneurial road littered with controversial products such as The Skinny Pill for Kids.”
The promotional blurb for Edita Kaye’s book breathlessly encourages readers to “Reinvent yourself. Start a business. Find a friend. Make a fortune…all this and more waits for you in virtual worlds. Join the tens of millions of virtual residents around the world who have already discovered this whole new metaverse. Everyone from kids, to corporations is going virtual!”
A self-described “Internet entrepreneur,” Edita Kaye recently emerged on the virtual world landscape as the editor of an on-line publication called iVinnie.Com. Composed almost entirely of hyperlinks to stories found in other publications, Kaye’s web site bills itself as “the number ONE virtual world news network.” But this is not Kaye’s only project. She is also the founder of the Association of Virtual Worlds (AVW). Created earlier this year, the mission of the AVW “is to serve those companies and individuals who are dedicated to the advancement of this multi-billion dollar global industry and reach out to those who have not yet found virtual worlds.” Since the beginning of the year, the organization has pumped out countless press releases, declared August 20th to be “Virtual World Day,” and launched a remarkable member-get-member campaign that has swelled the entity to more than 1,100 members.
Edita Kaye’s profile page on the AVW site describes her as the award-winning author of 16 books. Her list of publications includes Fountain of Youth: The Anti-Aging Weight Loss Program, The Skinny Pill, The Skinny Rules, and Cooking Skinny With Edita.
The rapid growth of the Association for Virtual Worlds is particularly impressive since it has been less than six years since the organization’s founder was defending her Skinny Pill for Kids on such television programs as The Today Show and Connie Chung Tonight. It has been less than five years since she incurred the wrath of the Federal Trade Commission and the House Committee on Energy and Commerce for marketing potentially dangerous nutritional supplements.
Beginning in 2000, Kaye used her promotional savvy and web expertise to market a series of weight loss supplements with names such as Skinny Pill A.M., Skinny Pill P.M., and Skinny Carbs. In 2002, she targeted her Skinny Pill for Kids at overweight youngsters, arguing that the supplement was “the FIRST thermic and herbal formula ever developed for weight loss for children 6 to 12″ and announced that it had “been created to help our children win their battle with fat.”
Such claims set off red flags, and nutritional experts soon chimed in with concerns that the pill’s ingredients (including the diuretics juniper berry and uva ursi) posed genuine risks for liver toxicity and kidney damage in children (Hopkins, 2004). On December 8, 2002, Kaye appeared on Connie Chung Tonight, defending her product against nutritional experts who characterized the supplement as “junk science.”
“The same foods that made you fat are going to make you skinny,” explained Kaye. “All you need is to have a watch to be able to tell time. In the morning, have an orange. At night, have some peanut butter. Take some of these supplements.” (CNN Transcript, 2002).
Other experts viewed things differently. The House Committee on Energy and Commerce initiated an investigation a few months later, and its Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations conducted a hearing on dietary supplements in June 2004. In this hearing, Keith Nayoob, Associate Professor of Pediatrics and Certified Nutritionist at the Albert Einstein Medical Center testified that the information on Kaye’s site was “scientifically baseless, blatantly exploitative, and potentially very harmful to children.”
The FTC agreed with Nayoob. In a complaint filed against Kaye’s company (Fountain of Youth LLC) in a US District Court, the FTC argued that the “defendants’ law violations have injured consumers throughout the United States” and “defendants have been unjustly enriched as a result of their unlawful practices.” In Feburary 2004, a settlement with the FTC prohibited Kaye from “making any weight-loss or health benefit claims for the Skinny Pills and similar products” in the absence of “competent and reliable scientific evidence to support such claims.” The settlement included a $6 million judgment, which was suspended due to the defendants’ inability to pay.
To anyone who has worked in sales or marketing, aspects of this story may spark a twinge of recognition. Whether writing a research grant or selling a product, there is a very human temptation to puff one’s claims by stretching the limits of language.
Edita Kaye has done a remarkable job of bringing people together in a very short time. In the interests of the community that she hopes to serve, it is crucial that she shy away from the hyperbolic rhetoric that characterized her past marketing efforts.
In all sectors, is essential that virtual world proponents take great care when evangelizing the technology. This is a technology that many people view as sexist, violent, and potentially addictive. Explaining the power of virtual worlds to our colleagues and clients is a full time job in itself. The last thing we need is the additional burden of explaining away snake oil diet scams.
Let’s try to get it right this time.
On 04.14.08 dougg said:
Interesting slide show about 3d worlds online.
We saw it before in 1996, then again in 2001.
Good to see it’s still around;)
Expensive I’ll bet.
On 04.14.08 David K. said:
janedoe – I worked with Edita Kaye briefly in 2007 on her virtual worlds products, including iVinnie and the AVW. Most of my negative experiences with her were personal problems…personality conflicts and such that don’t merit any public airing.
One relevant point I can offer, however, is that Edita Kaye has never set foot into one of these virtual worlds, at least not in any fashion that was more than glancing. She does not feel it is relevant to her role in the business. This was always a huge sticking point for me: If your entire business model revolves around virtual worlds, should you not at least be familiar with a few of the hundreds that are popping up? Take it for what it’s worth, but a person who creates an association for virtual worlds, and who is writing a book on the subject should be, in my opinion, interested in them. Also for what it’s worth, the last time I spoke with her early this year, the book was still non-existent, other than the cover and the blurb.
It should also be noted that on iVinnie.com, they are classifying such things as Facebook and MySpace as virtual worlds. At best, grouping social networks in with virtual worlds is a stretch. I think more likely it’s an attempt to capitalize on a very lucrative segment of Web 2.0. at a time when the buzz about virtual worlds is dying off amid technical issues and two years under-delivering on their high expectations. Good for them if they make it profitable, but personally it makes me think they don’t know their own subject-matter.
The whole experience for me was a rough one. I don’t wish any ill will towards Edita Kaye or her business ventures in virtual worlds. She has several fine people working with her who I appreciate and respect. But I would seriously caution anyone to do their own investigating before jumping head first into business relationships with this particular venture.
I am the Executive Director of the Association of Virtual Worlds. In other words, I helped Edita found the Association and now I lead and run it (and live and breathe it.) To learn about my years practicing law, advising global corporations on HR matters, and leading global IT functions for a Fortune 200 company, please take a look at http://www.linkedin.com/in/delchoness.
Since I started exploring virtual worlds, I have been cited as one of the most knowledgeable legal experts in virtual worlds, quoted in Forrester Research reports, interviewed, and asked to speak to large audiences about virtual worlds. That all said, the Association of Virtual Worlds is not about any single person. It is about its membership, its content, and its mission.
Edita Kaye is very engaged in virtual worlds study and follows developments religiously. In starting the Association she had a vision for a platform agnostic organization of people passionate about virtual worlds, with its own virtual headquarters for them to meet in and learn together. And that vision is coming true. In less than two months, the Association grown to nearly 1,300 members from or intrigued by virtual worlds of all shapes and sizes. The Association has announced its first title, The Virtual Corporation, a serious book on how virtual worlds technologies will impact the traditional corporate functions. The Association will be launching its virtual headquarters later this year. There are more developments to come for the benefit of the industry, but perhaps more importantly, that will deliver a compelling and thoughtful message about virtual worlds to a sometimes skeptical public.
By the way, in my extensive dealings with Edita, I have found her to be a highly compassionate and intelligent person with integrity.
I understand that people can say whatever they like in a public blog, and I absolutely treasure that right, but we need to focus on what’s happening in the here and now: a member focused organization, producing excellent discussions, and more to come, without any significant interference from any sort of hierarchy. Any questions, please contact me.
Im so glad to have run across this entry on Virtually Blind. I must say that the dialogue has completely provoked this response. I didn’t intend to respond….but here goes…I really thought that the idea reference was interesting. I must agree that for me the idea was about a new space to create and new opportunity to contribute and to be of service to other contributors. I am in the IP business; Director of the Virtual Intellectual Property Organization and practicing IP attorney. I was so glad to find such a large community of artists and inventors creating in virtual worlds and must admit I was pretty disappointed that, after centuries of international negotiation resulting in a nearly coordinated system of intellectual property rights recognition, their struggle continues and they must fight for their right to be recognized, protected and paid. Participating in creation of any sort is brave, priceless and deserves reward and recognition. As far as effective digital rights management, I am uncertain of its form but I have no doubt that we will see it happen. I, in the meantime, will use all the resources and tools at my disposal to assist content creators in their efforts to enforce and protect their intellectual property rights. Perhaps THE idea is that we’re all a little closer now than before and that its a little easier meet and share our ideas with each other. Why then now, of all times, be exclusive? Only IP, only open source; now more than ever we should be able to address the complexity of circumstances and allow situations to direct their own response. Let those who open source do so, support those who seek their enforcement, in other words, the VIPO way (much like the way of the Jedi… only stronger:)mtfbwy).
I wish they’d bring us in off the streets — right in world — and have focus groups there, where, oh, they could save travel and refreshment money and stuff…
I can only see this A/B testing as a positive development. For months now Linden have behaved like they hadn’t got a clue what they were doing – now they’ve officially confirmed this.
Hahaha. Yay! And roam the grid with no worries or cares!
On 04.16.08 LaDolche said:
Linden is on the ball and following correct testing procedures for a product of this magnitude. HCI and Usability are essentail for this product to be a success. Those that endlessly whine about Linden’s faults are hardly experienced at this type of testing procedure. AND, in most cases, really hardly familiar with the true usages of SL as a current medium, and certainly as a medium of the future.
What they are doing in this testing is dead on. Tests need to continue non-stop for the entire duration of the product. Linden needs to support the future viability of this product and not just cater to the old timers with nothing better to do. As more and more researchers and corporations look at the application for more serious use, the HCI issues are huge for mass deployment.
Oh, if you immediately do not know what HCI above means, then you are not qualified to respond to this post…and I rest my case.
Cool stuff. My mirror neurons were pulsing. I need to be careful, I hear if one breaks a neural mirror it can be seven multiverse dimensions of bad luck…
This is weird stuff from a german point of view. I can’t imagine having to put a copyright symbol behind each trademark I use in my writing. “I rode my Mercedes Benz® to the Paunsdorf Center®, where I bought some Coca Cola® and some Pringles® for my planned evening in Second Life®. While I was there I got a BigMac® at McDonalds® for lunch, later I checked the shops from Karstadt®, Quelle®, Aldi®, C&A® and bought me some Levi’s® and a new Motorola Razr®.”
Did I read that wrong or is that how they imagine people should write?
That’s how you should write, if you’re in the US. (First time only). Actually, if you look at a lot of US novels and so on that use brand names, they actually will have a copyright disclaimer at the beginning. Aspirin lost its trademark over something so simple and yeah, it’s moronic but hey. You would thing a capital letter would be enough.
Outside of the US the rules are a bit different.
Have a look at this comment on Xerox in Wikipedia:
The word “xerox” is commonly used as a synonym for “photocopy” (both as a noun and a verb) in many areas; for example, “Lifting whole passages from someone else’s speeches is not change you can believe in, it’s change you can Xerox”. Though both are common, the company does not condone such uses of its trademark, and is particularly concerned about the ongoing use of Xerox as a verb as this places the trademark in danger of being declared a generic word by the courts. The company is engaged in an ongoing advertising and media campaign to convince the public that Xerox should not be used as a verb.[9][10]
To this end, the company has written to publications that have used Xerox as a verb, and has also purchased print advertisements declaring that “you cannot ‘xerox’ a document, but you can copy it on a Xerox Brand copying machine”. (Note that xerox is functionally a verb in this sentence.) Xerox Corporation continues to protect its trademark diligently in most if not all trademark categories. Despite their efforts, many dictionaries continue to mention the use of “xerox” as a verb, including the Oxford English Dictionary.
Well thankfully where I am such demands would be laughed out off the courtroom…
I mean, I can understand that they don’t want a non-approved “Second Life Magazine” that takes advantage from the trademarked name, but other use, like writing an article about “with lots of luck it works fine every SECOND day LIFE”? Nope. I won’t go on a google search each time to find out behind what words that I use I have to put a ® or other character in a little circle
Slight sidebar about the Emotiv/3D camera thing, sort-of…
I wondered about the possibility of Second Life running on an (future) iPhone, obviously in a reduced form. Wouldn’t that be a nice home for a ‘light’ client, might not have to be so ‘light’ after all, we might be able to have some graphics even. Imagine a relatively low-res version of SL (without Windlight presumably) and all in PoV with the ability to look around in SL by moving your iPhone around. So to look round at your friend on your left, just spin the iPhone to the left. To check if you put your favourite shoes on today you tilt it down etc…
It would make for some fun contortions on the bus to work in the morning but it could be a lot of fun…an iPhone as a little ‘live’ window onto SL? Well, if EA can write (a demo of) Spore for the iPhone in a week, who knows what could happen?
Yup, it’s the accelerometers in an iPhone that would make it a fun tool for SL – a bit like a Wii or PS3 SixAxis controller but with the display attached – a live peephole into SL.
It may all be academic, the announcements recently about the next gen’ of internet ‘The Grid’, capable of connections 10,000 times faster than we’re used to, throws everything into the air, perhaps literally as we all start connecting to cloud computers.
It would be such a paradigm shift, who’s going to need fancy graphics cards anymore – you’ll only need a terminal device capable of displaying the feed it gets from your subscription to SL (or whatever). Hard to get your head around, it would completely transform the current PC market. Interesting stuff… http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article3689881.ece
Thanks for noting this event! FYI, build festival is open to people of all levels and we will have scripters, texturers around to support people in acheiving their visions.
Just FYI–I’m an instructional designer, not a professor. My comments are in italics, but everything else is a summary of what Barbara McLain wrote. “The two professors were effusive” is really incorrect on two points–you don’t really know whether I’m effusive or not when I’m simply reporting on someone else’s presentation.
I’m personally not as excited as she is about SL. I see the potential of virtual worlds, but it’s too bleeding edge for my job. I like seeing what’s possible as that vision for the future, but I know I’m at least several years away from being able to apply any of it in my own job.
“Brendan didn’t touch on the other issues brought up in my post”
Dusan …
Sorry to have have let responding to you slide for a couple of weeks!
Frankly, I have not been “in the loop” (as it were) for the discussions of the details of the Metrics capabilities of Code4 Software’s “V-Tracker” in relation to its implementation in SlippCat.
I’m assuming that nothing is “carved in stone” at this point, and that the whole question of data collection is going to be evolving as we work through the beta … and I wouldn’t be surprised it the question remained fluid, adapting the system to the specific needs of different clients.
Anyway, the Metrics questions would be far better addressed to either Antony or Jared.
Thanks Brendan. It’s um, tripped off a debate amongst others, and a more serious debate with a university prof friend of mine. Interesting, because there is an article based on some work out of Queen’s University in Kingston about public attitudes to surveillance and tracking – sort of concluding that, well, most people don’t care. They feel there are advantages to being monitored and their purchase patterns and behaviors tracked. I’m not entirely sure where I come down on the notion, I’ll say at the bare minimum there should be transparency and an option to opt out.
However, more on the more general notion of the advantages of data collection, the cons, and the role of privacy and identity in the Internet world with a series of posts to follow.
[...] And if they do that, and everyone gets comfortable again because some agency wins a Cannes Lion award, then that’s good news for the metaverse, because the technology will advance, and in the meantime the real work is being done by the little people. And the schools. And businesses. And Amazon and Google and Microsoft and, well, the games. [...]
[...] BEEN A TEASER. Head on over to the new domain to read the rest of this brilliant and scintillating article. Or, because I have a picture of an old guy bowling on a Wii. Posted in Metaverse [...]
A few reactions though:
I don’t think brands moved from SL to other places. I don’t think they were ever really there. Oh sure we had some big names dabbling, but the number of significant brands who were doing anything other than playing with innovation budgets in SL was quite small. If SL felt like the center of the universe to the residents for a bit, it was because of all the press. To serious brands, it had only half a million users back then and *still* only has half a million users. Brands were interested in where this could go and grow, but growth stalled. The numbers show that SL is incredibly interesting to its power users, but few others are coming and staying right now.
Most brand managers didn’t feel like they were yanked into a space of large promises and small results. They felt like they were putting tiny budgets into a cool new experiment area, and hoping for good results. The only people talking about SL as the new frontier of riches was the media, but any savvy brand manager knew better. I seriously doubt that they are in a cold sweat.
You talk about the people in SL having different ideas from what the brand managers thought — ie empty islands and poor projects. Oh sure, there were dud projects. Sure, some brands had a very hard time getting out from under their RL realities (give me my RL store, my RL product, my RL marketing approach). And with bad projects, SL users yawned, and often for good reason (but never mind that when you tried to make something actually fun with multiple users, the technology broke all the time — and your average person doesn’t care about explanations about why havoc crashed or LSL executes slowly or their 128MB nvidia card is struggling — they just know it’s not fun). To brands, SL had meaningless numbers from an eyeballs perspective. They never expect to get a huge percentage of any pool, so they look to big pools. 500K people? Not enough by a long stretch. So yes, brand participation could have been more compelling, but would that have been enough, when SL remains highly interesting to half a million people and uninteresting to everyone else?
We did a project with iVillage (late 2006, early 2007) that got tons of accolades from the community. SLers *loved* it. There was no central sim — rather it was about exploring SL. But iVillage looked past the applause from the community and blogosphere and looked at the total numbers and said, why am I bothering with this? Now, I think they should have continued, but my point is just that there’s a lot of silly retrospective oversimplification going on (then again, that’s nothing new).
And what is a walled garden? Is Amazon a walled garden, versus CNN.com? They are separate spaces but exist on the same Internet. If two virtual worlds exist on the same Internet, is that different? OK, this is about social spaces so things should be interoperable right? Then again, human beings tend to put themselves into communities, so is it a problem that you have lots of separate communities? Interoperability would be nice, but how many runs at that have been tried on the Web and failed miserably.
And self-expression. I personally love Second Life because I’m an artist. It was and is a wonderful canvas. But most people don’t express themselves through easy-to-use building tools. Instead it is through how they act or collaborate or dress or write or dance.
I think SL remains really interesting. But I have to face facts that few others on the planet seem to think so right now. I do think that visual communication on the net is important, and I do love the dream of Second Life, but I think it will be a ways coming, and that there will be multiple steps to get there, and that the platform to get us there might already be here… called the Web. But maybe SL will pull it out. It will be interesting to watch and help make happen.
>His lack of hands on IT capabilities might have the coders squirming but let’s face it, while the grid isn’t stable the position is far less about the code
Yes, I agree. Something this messy needs political leadership, not engineers anymore. I realized that when one of the people on the SLDev list today said the problem of making avatars interoperable was economic, not a programming issue. Geeks hate politicians. But they are necessary.
I have no idea what the substance of Havoc 4 is because I’m not running it yet, but I’ve long been impressed with Sidewinder because:
o he’s a grown-up among kids
o he follows up — relentlessly
o he plans his work and works his plan
o he reports on what he’s doing, warts and all — which is supposed to be the spirit of their wacky hippie system there but none of them ever do it
In short, Sidewinder is worth his weight in gold in that outfit. Yes, it would be good to clone him — except people like this get this way not by being clones, but by being individuals who take responsibility.
It’s that failure to take responsibility that haunts most of them.
The graphs in the article are used as a nice way to present subjective data as an supposedly objective point of view. Because of the 2axes structure you can pick the 2 qualities to support your theory and work from there, but the ’sweet spot’ is pure fiction. A dot on a graph but I don’t see any real reasoning why thin, captivating virtual worlds would be a good all-round solution. It isn’t. You need to cross reference that with demographics, mostly age, gender. Brand acceptability and actual measured results because at the bottom line, you need to create sales. Perhaps then you will find these thin virtual worlds are actually really expensive solutions to something we can already do a lot cheaper, a lot faster, and a lot more efficient if you are looking for brand engagement.
This realization that the 2D web might actually be BETTER than 3D is also the point I am starting to object to “the metaverse isn’t here yet”. The funny thing is the 2D representation on the flat internet is a choice we’ve already made some time ago. We translate 3D info into 2D. 3D is very time consuming and often requires a lot of explanation because of the various point of views, 2D has already ‘framed’ the mental picture’ the sender wants to communicate to its receiver. Furthermore, obviously 3D requires obtrusive applications for mostly fleeting, or ubiquitous actions (chat, music, information gathering) while thin worlds cater to what seems to be the core function of virtual worlds for the masses (almost all fleeting applications) in a much better way thick clients do – which is why these thin worlds could be better than thick worlds, but still WORSE than websites. Which makes for another interesting point. Why is it these virtual spaces have become so compelling to us, that these virtual worlds have become the goal itself…
I believe the ESC is not going to provide the answer to that we should be looking for. For them its most of all a niche. A niche they strongly believe in but a niche of companies willing to spend money on exploring these ‘new’ environments. But the truly interesting part to me, is what compels us about virtual worlds /is/ how tremendously compelling they are to those open to its immersive nature.
As it became a rather long reply I finished it over on my own blog:
Thanks for such a thoughtful reply, and I think we’re actually agreeing on many points, we’re just saying it differently. Or should I say, I’m saying it without precision and you’re picking up on my tendency to vaguely ramble around a few loose points.
First, I should clarify. I’m not so naive to think that brand managers were betting their budgets on Second Life. It was always an experiment. But the cold sweat part isn’t in experiments on Second Life, it’s on the sea change in media. As I say, they’ve spent decades perfecting buying commercials, and they’ve been deluged with all this new media and fragmenting audiences and worrying about Google, with some agency and brand folks wondering whether Google might not be more of a threat than an opportunity, others wondering how the heck they can ‘go viral’ anyways.
They placed exploration bets. Some worked, (bad hair day on youTube) some didn’t. The bets they places were in Second Life, or product placements in games, or setting up mySpace groups or whatever.
The cold sweat part for the brand managers is that what’s hot never seems to STAY that way. That’s what I meant – not that they expected Second Life to be their branding platform, just that they keep placing these investments in the new promised land and can’t seem to get them to stick in a consistent way. Second Life yesterday is a widget today is a Metaplace branded gamelet tomorrow…but which ones will actually *work*? So they try to come up with some sort of reassuring model, measurement, revert to traditional media models, place bets in more than one place…my point is there’s no easy answer for how to deal with all of these options because the issue isn’t that there are more technologies or platforms, the issue is that the nexus of creation has shifted…we will always be a society that consumes entertainment, it’s just that the people creating that entertainment no longer need to live in LA or New York to be in the game (hehe).
Second. I’m not actually advocating here for Second Life. It may sound that way. Second Life for the purposes of mass entertainment and branding doesn’t work, at least unless someone can figure out how to better integrate it with other platforms…thus the walled garden discussion.
Should virtual worlds be interoperable? I don’t quite see the point, frankly. Someone is bound to come out with an avatar meta site…one log in, one age verification, one wallet, and it will act as an intermediary on your behalf for entry into various virtual worlds. And as far as porting content all over the place, that kills innovation in my mind. I DO believe that SOME content will tend towards standards – look, they can’t even get 3D animation software to talk to each other (not well anyways)…try reading about moving stuff from Maya to ZBrush or over to Vue and you hear the artists screaming in frustration and writing macros. It’s not like Second Life has put up some NEW impenetrable barrier, this technology for creating 3D content is complicated and seems to involve arguing over nurbs and polygons and render engines and what the heck does that have to do with making a beach house anyways.
I’ve come to the belief that open source is a beautiful thing. However, it’s a beautiful thing for specific types of development where the opening up of technology might be enabling, but in other cases it’s a recipe for poorly designed code that you then need to hire all those open source people to maintain or understand, and what the open source people really need is to make sure they bring a technical writer on board to make the user documentation actually usable by someone other than the coders. It may be open source, but that doesn’t make it openly accessible.
OK. So. Where does that leave me?
One, brand managers wake up in a cold sweat because it used to be you could choose and audience, find out what they were watching or where they were playing and then populate those spaces with content that they might enjoy (after some market research, testing, etc.).
Two, Second Life investments were an example of trying to get a handle on one of the many sorts of investments that are now available in a rapidly shifting and evolving marketplace.
Three, one lesson learned is that these investments can’t work inside little walled gardens. The only thing that makes sense is to be far more strategic with investments in newer technologies, game spaces, virtual worlds and social media. Which means creating brand stories that bridge all these spaces.
BUT, and here’s my big but – the problem is that brands aren’t just competing across so many new media and spaces, their stories are competing with the stories created by others. Stories created by some kid in their basement, or the Star Wars fan geeks making their own movie with George’s permission, or tomorrow’s Guitar Hero superstar.
I didn’t claim that Second Life was a platform for self-expression because it has building tools. (Or maybe I did, I’d better check, but I don’t think so). For me, Second Life is a story box, and it’s a beautiful test case on what can happen when you take self expression to its extreme. But the reality is that only a small slice of the SL community actually make great stuff, a slice make OK stuff just because, and the rest of them participate in stories of their own design – dancing, shopping, changing their avatar appearance, heading over to the Rezzable date sims, visiting a gallery, taking a class.
So there’s something mixed up here. Because my THEORY is that we’re in a world of ever increasing self expression. Second Life is ONE example of this (which is why I mention youTube and Facebook so much) and brands came into it trying to insert into an expressive community, and it was a nice experiment but didn’t quite work.
And again, I’m not saying that EVERYONE is going to be an artist, or a songwriter…but I AM saying that the people who consume these things are giving equal attention to the artists who aren’t backed by record labels, or publishers, they just toil away on their own and create little clusters of fans around them.
Because the tools for creation are being democratized (and look out for 3D printers and the ability to design and fabricate our own running shoes or custom create our own t-shirts) this is also leading to a shift away from territorial morality into a tribal one, and I’m a believer that this is a profound social shift, as well as one which might be a wellspring for new forms of magic, but don’t say that to the branding guys, it’s what I mean by “maybe some day they’ll get it”.
The brand paradigm will shift because it won’t have a choice. It will need to shift from thinking about target audiences, eyeball time and thin clients into metrics around co-creation and expression. Lego maybe gets it. MTV sort of gets it. And the marketers in general will eventually get it as well.
Second Life is a cool place to be if you want to grab some insight into what the logical extension of a full form of self-expression looks like. There are few platform controls (TOS whiners aside). The tools are fairly limitless (hard to learn but still) and so if you want to see what the full flowering of self-expression looks like, and how the consumers of that expression react and how identities and social communities shift and form in the face of it, come in and have a look. (Not YOU. I know YOU’VE come in and had a look, and by the way I like your little store. )
In the meantime, we can plan to ride the sweet spot, and I TOTALLY agree, the Web is where it’s at. But if I was modeling a brand plan of the future I wouldn’t just be looking for this year’s eyeballs and time and so on, I’d be looking at objectives related to whether I ended the year creating new ways for my brand to respond and be co-created with, ways for brand extensions to be developed in collaboration with a community of users, methods for integrating product development and manufacturing into my marketing touch points such as through the use of 3D design spaces, new approaches to including community expression and goodwill as a line item in my financial reporting, methods for being a respectful participant in the open source communities who are probably coming up with their own ways to make a version of my product only better, and I’d end the year happy if I’ve reached a bunch of people, but I’ve also extended my business practices outside of some new measurement devices for advertising.
Hmmm.
Well.
I realize I kind of went off on some sort of rambling soap box. It’s exciting stuff and exciting times I guess. Because I really don’t think brand marketing is going to look anything like it does today a few years from now, and I suppose it’s fun to watch what happens.
On 04.23.08 admin said:
/me nods.
Which is probably as much a function of the culture set up by management as it is individual character flaws. If the management culture is “hey, we all do what we can, we’re human, this is a grand experiment, do what you want, as you want, we’re a forgiving, organic, living, breathing experiment after all” then that’s fairly easily interpreted as “oh, OK, so I’ll do what I want and when I lose interest not really do it anymore” although you’ll still have your Sidewinder exceptions who likely had strict parents and an insane desire to please.
Permission to fail is one of the needed virtues of a company, especially a technology one. Permission to fail because of lack of trying, hubris, or being inconsiderate of your customers should be a virtue that gets you kicked out the door.
Will be interesting to see who M kicks out first.
On 04.23.08 Giff Constable said:
I need a few more minutes later today to read that response properly, but in my quick scan, I think you’re right that we agree on many points.
[...] some ways, this speaks exactly to the point I was making yesterday in the far-ranging discussion with Giff of the Electric Sheep Company: in a world in which there is increasing self-expression, [...]
Not to toot my own horn, but the article neglected to mention Cyburbia (http://www.cyburbia.org). Established in 1994, it’s the Internet’s oldest continuously operating planning-related Web site. Although Cyburbia was the very first online community related to urban planning (its forums today have almost 5,800 members and nearly 400,000 posts), it was not mentioned in the otherwise comprehensive “Building Cities in the Virtual World” article that appeared in Planning Magazine. While there were six paragraphs devoted to Facebook groups in the “Online Communities” section of the article, Cyburbia was curiously absent, not just from the section but from the entire article.
To answer your question: Beacons. Or as Seth Godin calls them, the purple cows. Reverse the idea of finding your market by advertising, make them find you by being remarkable (worth making a remark about).
If you haven’t read ‘Purple Cow’ (all though I suspect you have) I really really suggest you go out and buy this book.
Social Networks just map demand and demographics to effectively launch your beacons, and engage in the conversation with ’sneezers’ – People who will tell people about your brand.
The bottom line is create good, remarkable products that don’t need advertising, but can withstand the test of conversation, and are actually worth talking about. How many Google or Apple ads did you see or hear?
On 04.24.08 Dusan said:
Digado – sure, I read Purple Cow. And the book in the box and the prize inside. And there’s something to it. On the other hand, let’s face it, some brands don’t MAKE remarkable products, and never will, and there will still be people who buy those products. Is a piece of crap plastic in Wal*Mart not worth something, to someone? Is the price point the thing you remark about? Or maybe its Wal*Mart itself that’s the beacon?
(I just don’t buy some of Seth’s marketing punditry. It’s way too cute, and just because he’s bald it doesn’t make him adorable or someone I want on the cover of my night stand reading. )
But I sort of buy the beacon thing – but my take on it is that in addition to trying to create something remarkable, like an event, meme, piece of media, or experience, (even, say, around some iPhone imitator that’s less cool, less functional, but maybe cheaper) brand managers are still faced with the sad frustration that they can’t always deliver on the promise.
OR, they don’t have the budget.
In Seth’s world, there are no crap plastic products from Korea that were the dream of some VP of product development who absolutely needed to fill a hole in their product portfolio because the competition beat them to it.
What’s even harder, are products that are incremental improvements only.
It’s hard to argue that if you create great stuff, even great experiences AROUND a brand that it’s a better way of thinking about and getting out your brand message. But it’s also hard to argue that we still need something pragmatic and serviceable for all the mediocre companies that are the actual drivers of the economy.
Sure, I have 4-5 products in my life that I lusted after. But I also have 100 products that I barely remember I own. And THOSE brands, in the long run, are the fuel of the metaverse and otherwise…and they’re also the products that have advertising agencies sweating bullets. Because even a mediocre product can spend a little more on Google Adwords and suddenly have sales. And even a niche product can find its home in the Long Tail.
With all the focus on “best platforms” (Web-based, 2D, 3D, immersion) to help drive brand growth, we can’t forget that our marketing models shouldn’t just be built for BMW or Apple. Our solutions need to bridge to the poor product manager whose selling some new bar of soap whose main feature maybe is that it’s orange and 10 cents cheaper.
Purple Cows are great, but maybe the orange soap belongs out there in the Long Tail somewhere? Are they the same thing? Different?
Gosh.
I think I’ve just managed to confuse myself even more than usual. Better think about this some more and get back to ya!
I always struggled with the idea that virtual land was ever any kind of ‘investment’. For starters it’s an infinite resource, so there can never be any (real) scarcity pushing up prices. Plus it’s in Linden’s interest that the prices stay low-ish and they control the supply of land so therefore monitor and cap the average prices. Land barons are in a (friendly?) battle with Linden, they want prices to rise but Linden want them to stay low – and in that battle Linden will ALWAYS win, they control the supply.
Where is the investment in that scenario? It’s like saying “I just invested in a blank webpage!”. Virtual land is nothing more than a host for your virtual endeavours not really an asset in itself (or not much of one). It doesn’t even have the attraction that a great domain name might, so even a blank webpage could have more real value!
Invest some talent, time and effort in your virtual site and you could reap big rewards, but the virtual land it sits on is, let’s be really honest, virtually worthless…
On 04.25.08 Dusan said:
But Eris – SL isn’t a money and cents kind of place is it? Because while as a business person I’d knock anyone over the head with a board if they thought they were going to make a fortune in real estate, there’s something important about the concept of ownership and value related to “land” in Second Life.
Now, first, you’re right. Land is simply a development platform. Build something ON the land and it starts to have value. Now, if I start talking about land as metaphor I’ve got it wrong too (I think I ONCE thought that, but it’s such a thin argument). But the concept of land and its value as part of the social contract maybe has more resonance.
Linden doesn’t really have a choice. Servers are practically free over on OpenSim. (P.S. That Wired magazine cover “FREE” still bugs me – it ISN’T free, you’ll pay in the end with time, attention, data, lack of service or need for it).
And let’s face it, when they tweak the price of servers it’s sort of like changing the talent tree of Paladins in Warcraft – some people up in arms, others thrilled, you can’t win really. But the point is that the pricing is part of an interconnected cultural web, use and value that people are deriving from the platform. You can’t just look at it as an accounting entry change, any significant policy change can have impacts that are further ranging than you anticipated.
(Hamlet Au’s book is practically built on the premise that for every change Linden made the consequences were nearly totally different than they anticipated, so obviously if they’ve learned lessons they haven’t shared them or are keeping mum).
As far as impact – well, for me, I’m probably one of those who benefits more than loses. That doesn’t mean I don’t empathize or feel that they’re changing the “rules of the game” without telling anyone what the new rules or focus might be. On the other hand, I also suspect that they might not even see it that way, and just think it’s a pricing shift and didn’t really give a LOT of thought to what it might mean.
Time will tell, and in the long term if they can automate bringing sims online, if hardware costs are getting cheaper, and if the competition is practically free then the lowered prices are needed, although I hope that it doesn’t also lead to a cut in service investments or grid improvements.
HAHAHA did I just SAY that last part? Oh dear.
(Waits at the entry to the Lab to shake M Linden’s hand and wish him luck).
You’re right of course, the ‘concept of ownership’ is a big deal within SL and directly responsible for many avatar-hours conceptualising and building virtual places. But, to continue the devil’s advocacy for a bit, it is only that – a concept, not a reality. It’s a concept we all buy into because it makes the virtual world go round but at best it’s illusory and at worst it’s some weird kind of pyramid selling scheme we’ve invented for ourselves.
It works to translate the concept of land ownership into virtual places because it gives a structure and makes sense of things – it’s a paradigm we all understand. However maybe too many people have taken it too literally – they’ve not only carried over the concept of land ownership, they’ve carried over the RL idea that land is an asset with an intrinsic value, that it’s a finite resource and that it can actually represent some kind of financial investment.
Virtual land is really none of those things and it seems a bit (financially) dangerous to me to believe that it is. There is no doubt some money to be made dealing in it, land barons are basically a service industry, nothing wrong with that. There are also endless cool things you can do on virtual land. I just think some of us need to be a bit more clear-headed about what it represent financially – it’s a cost and not an investment.
We need to keep a similarly clear head about virtual banks and stock exchanges too! Wanna play stock exchanges? Use play-money!
Linden’s decision to drop the price of introducing new islands is interesting, it reveals the gulf in thinking between residents and Linden, as if that needed further illustration. To Linden it probably is just an issue of servers on racks getting cheaper and the growing competition on the horizon. It IS just an accounting exercise – they didn’t think of its implications on the inworld community because they’re not really part of that inworld community. I don’t believe either it was part of a considered strategy – only 2 weeks before we’d had the announcement about OpenSpaces’ wider availability and if there was any real planning they’d have rolled those announcements into one big policy shift. Instead the OpenSpace announcement was half-superseded and half-supplemented by the price drop.
At the moment it seems to be a case of “Hi right hand, meet left hand!”
There seems to be a real gulf between Linden and its customers and it’s growing. For example, how else to explain some of the bizarre UI decisions being made with Dazzle? I can’t believe that anyone that actually has to USE the interface would choose these changes (altho changes certainly need to be made)? The latest RC client has now developed a weird drunken camera movement which probably looked lovely at the office presentation when Torley demo-ed it, but it’s a **** to actually use to build with!
M Linden has a task ahead of him…
On 04.27.08 Dusan said:
Thank goodness I wasn’t the only one who noticed that camera problem with the new viewer! I thought it was some kind of weird lag spike. Hahaha.
Overall, I agree with you about sim rental, land, whatever. If you invest in it you’re mad. I’m also looking forward to whether M Linden can make a shift from technology-based decision making (it’s a cost of entry, now, which isn’t to say stabilizing it isn’t important, someone should be FIRED for the number of crashes and shut downs we’ve seen the past few weeks) to customer-centric decision making which also recognizes that those decisions need to be made against the backdrop that they are “policy” decisions because they have cultural impacts, something that makes SL unique.
And hey. Linden’s not the only one. Look at Disney shutting down its virtual world Magic Kingdom. I wonder if they knew how many people had their hearts and wallets invested in that place. Probably thought “it’s just a game” (although I tend to think they’re smarter than that but who knows).
I wonder if they could sober up the camera as soon as you go into Build mode? I could live with that. Otherwise it’s another interface kink you have to adjust to and workaround instead of an interface enhancement that actually makes your SL work easier. I really wish they’d learn to tell the difference!
I agree about recent stability issues. I don’t remember it being this bad before. The current RC client is virtually unusable (for me) too, appalling frame-rates and crashing, hideous Dazzle interface, drunken camera. Do you think they’re missing a CTO? Is Cory Ondrejka secretly feeling very smug right now?
I don’t know if sacking people is better than forcing them to fix the problems they’ve caused – but either way I think Linden should give anyone paying land-tier some money back this month by way of apology. It’s only fair since SL is virtually unusable every day at peak-time and it would be a good PR gesture (for a change).
When I first heard of the proposed Education Track at the next Virtual Worlds Expo, I thought it was a good move. But then I realized that their main focus is on businesses, and they don’t have much credibility or mind-share amongst the educators, which are an entirely different community. For starters, educators are more interested in teaching and ideas than in making money. They are also going to have a hard time getting funding to go to an expensive conference that’s mostly aimed at business uses of virtual worlds.
[...] McKinsey & Company on Virtual Worlds: “Ignore them at your peril” – Dusan Writer’s reports that ‘companies who do not experiment with virtual worlds are putting themselves at strategic risk’. [...]
Sidewinder Linden is clearly a trained professional program manager. Every aspect of his work that I have seen has been impeccable – he has plan, he executes to the plan, he communicates clearly and follows up, and most of all he is infinitely conscientious. On more than one occasion I have seen him arrive personally to evaluate a problem, and while doing do he is personable, engaged and patient.
The drop in land prices was lousy for land dealers who primarily aimed at earning money through flips. For those of us in the land game who aren’t planning on cashing out any time soon it’s a good thing.
I disagree that we can’t look at virtual land as an investment. It just depends on what you mean by investment. As an aspiring land baron my business model is to purchase the land and turn it into cashflow. On a percentage basis the returns we anticipate are far superior to what we would see in the “real” world over the next year. And they should be, since the risks are far greater as well.
My partner and I did some rough speculation as to what the drop in prices will mean for Second Life over the next year. We recently placed an order for 4 Openspace sims at $250 each. We heard through the grapevine that there are roughly 250 order tickets ahead of us, and I’m guessing that at least as many have been placed after ours. 500 orders at 4 Openspace sims each is a cash influx of $500,000 for Linden Labs. It is also a land influx of 2000 or more Openspace sims. Odds are in another 2 months most of those will end up on the auctions.
I don’t recall when I made the observation that if Linden Lab™ didn’t get their act together and improve the stability (amongst many diverse problems) of the grid, Second Life™ would end up being nothing more than a little backwater world in the virtual universe.
Perhaps because of a case of “too little, too late”, they may arrive at that position sooner than later.
A beautifully crafted post ; I can’t say the melancholy and forlorn hope do not touch me to the heart — and yet, and yet… there is so much magic around us ; the magic of people inventing new lives for themselves every single day, so much more powerful, if less spectacular than enchanted sculpty glades.
Maybe that is the vision of the future : that there isn’t any grand one. Just a new world growing out of tens of thousands of small ones.
On 05.09.08 Dusan said:
Awww sure Rheta. And first, well, this blog’s my metaverse blog, but none of us should forget that there’s a wider world as well.
But I suppose that’s one vision and I guess in many ways it was Philip’s. A grand vision of everyone connected for a better humanity, everyone growing their own little worlds, but it is nice to hear and listen to what people will think that means and I almost feel ashamed now to think that one time I thought brands might kind of get it, but I suppose it was too early for them, or this ONE grid was too early in any case.
I’m at a Games for Health conference in Baltimore where I’ve seen people using platforms for all kinds of things – helping kids exercise, stroke patients rehabilitate, scientists discover proteins through massive online games, brain wave controlled racing games for ADHD treatment instead of using drugs, or MTV doing some amazingly simple stuff to educate about HIV infection.
I wonder whether with larger shared visions we can find other ways to focus our thinking, creativity, and attention on technology development. But you’re right – there was no grand vision for the Internet really as it started to sort of make itself up. I suppose it would just be nice in a period of grid crashes and asset server freeze-ups to know that there’s others with hope and optimism and to hear what that hope and optimism is based on.
I was feeling inspired down here, listening to excited people talking about how video games can help cure, treat, educate, engage. SL has a wider purpose than just ‘let’s buy a beach house’. Or maybe it doesn’t. And maybe a beach house is enough. I am curious what the talent thinks – the ‘guild hall’ at Rezzable or our friends at Avatrian or other dreamers who might have some ideas on what it means for us to share a platform for stories.
We are of course very glad that you picked-up on the upcoming Garden of NPIRL Delights event. Watching people realize their visions in the virtual world over the last week has been very exciting and reminds me of why we got into the virtual world in the first place.
The virtual world is a new frontier and it is amazing to explore and join. It is unexpected, it reminds of things from the real world and from our dreams at the same time. It is like a time machine where you zip forwards and backwards. Most importantly it is a unique place for self-expression without limitations or pre-judgements. Of course the social and real-time nature of interaction is fanatastic and adds the energy to the experiences.
So where’s the problem? Let’s face it…CSI was/is a flop. Most of the corporate builds are empty (deservedly so) and the one good one Pontiac Motorati got canned. Why? Every corporate we meet has a negative comment about SL. SL was overhyped by the media and clumsy developers delivered boring sims at high prices. Also experienced online marketing people took a risk on SL, but with weak traffic they cannot justify what looks like wasted money. They built it but not enough people came. LL promotes a ridiculous registration statistic when so few people can even get off the arrival islands. There is now a backlash. LL is flat on a meaningful response to this. They should wake-up and start telling their own good story.
However, the main issue — is content. The core SL audience (the 400,000 or so active/engaged users) has a collective early adopter profile. They want/demand edgier stuff and are not bothered with the rough usability or need to understand technical details to enjoy stuff. But the taste, patience and interests of the much larger mainstream audience are different. So really, making more of the same or even better more of the same is not going to increase meaningfully the SL active user count.
The concern for the future of SL is how to attract the mainstream users without killing what is unique. So maybe it would have been worse if tons of CSI fans came into SL and the whole grid reacted to become more like WOW.
For what it’s worth here’s what we are trying to do right now:
* more user generated content. Garden is an example, we are also continuing to host more fairs and festivals on our 4 special events sims. We take request from people for 1 or more sims.
* more digital art shows. We already run the largest art collection in the metaverse — Black Swan, Collectors’ Gallery, the Cannery and the Dagger Eye. We also have sculptures scattered across the void sims as well as a new goth cemetary next to Carnival of Doom. We are bring digital artist into SL from places like deviant and flickr.
* Open Source community project to make surfing waves and boards. This is being announced shortly, but main point is to allow more people to participate in making surfing great. So we will support a LSL development community as well as give Board makers free sales areas on our sims.
* More interactive. We are opening a 2nd Greenies sim in next few months. It will involve questing and exploration in a great build context.
* User participation build for a new version of the Toxic Garden. We will announce this soon as well, but effectively we want users to build the story from an outline about utopian dreams gone awry.
* Carnival of Doom will start running a weekly show all done by SL residents. We are in fact offering free rentals in a new trailer park for the performers.
You will also see more pay-to-visit across our sites. In most cases the fees will be nominal. We think people will pay for quality and value–our mission is to understand what that is.
As far as LL goes…we still think they are the best platform for this kinda stuff. If we had any wish, it would be for them to sell off Mainland and focus on establishing service level agreements for customers. The grid is way passed the point where LL needs to prop-up the rental market.
Anyway, not sure if that was hair down or knickers down…cu on the grid (when it’s up again)!
Is this wise at a moment when many (most?) ISP’s throttle traffic on P2P networks and when European ISP’s are being warned they may be held responsible for content distributed via P2P networks?
Wouldn’t they be tiptoeing thru’ something of a technical and legal minefield?
On 05.11.08 ichabod Antfarm said:
Hi, Eris, I don’t think P2P, in itself, is legally questionable; using a peer to peer network like bittorrent to share copyrighted material without consent certainly is.
I think it’s sweetly naive to think a virtual world like SL could be implemented using P2P because it assumes that, um, basically, its residents are all upstanding human beings who won’t use knowledge of their neighbour’s IP addresses to wreak havoc. I shudder to think on it! The problem could be got around with proxies but is it fair to call a network “peer to peer” when no two peers are ever directly connected to each other? I don’t see how a distributed “avatar position” network translates to unlimited scale when all other content (including comms) remains centrally sourced.
So….ummmm….say one was interested in this patch. How might they go about getting it?
On 05.12.08 Dusan said:
Well, I received it by e-mail. Hotmail – Dusan.writer
Or contact friends on SLDev I suppose. I’ll try to track down if it was posted somewhere as well, remembering that it’s being distributed for comment only at this point as a development/test patch.
On 05.12.08 Eris said:
I doubt that live-rendered shadows will arrive in SL anytime soon but there could be worthwhile compromises while we wait…
I’ve found myself often wishing for a ‘bake-shadow’ option within SL itself. So that when u finish a build or object you could right-click and choose ‘Add Shadows’ and the SL client would take a minute or two to render and ‘bake’ your object’s textures with light and shadows appropriate to SL’s lighting model.
It could be done client-side, avoiding server lag, and would then deliver you a set of baked textures specific to your object. If everyone had access to an inworld option for doing this there would be some visual continuity across SL and it could make things look that bit more ‘real’ without the huge overheads of rendering live shadows.
It’ll never happen of course – we appear to have had THREE failures of Asset Servers last night – so first things first.
On 05.12.08 Dusan said:
Interesting idea Eris. I don’t have enough insight into where SL is headed, but I understand that one idea is to move objects closer to source (i.e. embed objects within the sim architecture rather than a central asset server). If this is a prelude to opening up the architecture in order to allow individuals and groups to host their own servers it might make some sense – host not only the sim but also the object repository. If this were true, I wonder if it would then be possible to pre-load objects? Either distribute on a CD or otherwise make the user wait while a sim preloads before entering, sort of giving more control over the experience.
Now if this were true, I wonder if then it might make sense to allow better shadowing because the server can optionally spend less time loading up assets, or can control that loading a bit better.
RealXtend has shading as part of their basic architecture. And it doesn’t seem to cause lag, although it’s hard to tell since the platform is still fairly new and has other issues.
Having said all that, none of this matters if they can’t keep a basic grid up and running. These asset server issues have gone beyond a nuisance, in my opinion, and are fundamentally undermining SL as a platform. Glitches are one thing, but Philip spent a lot of time preaching how their number one priority was grid stability.
They’ve either made the wrong technology choices, don’t have the requisite sense of urgency, or, well, just don’t have a clue. For education institutes, corporations and in-world entrepreneurs (not to mention casual users, the lifeblood), to find the grid LESS stable after all the preaching about needing stability instills negative confidence.
Let’s remember that it was 9 months ago that Philip gave his keynote at the SLCC, and I’ll quote from a live blog of it:
One of the things we can do to start improving quality is publishing our internal metrics the same way we’ve been pushing economic metrics out there. This line [of stability] has been fairly flat since March. We’d like to have it go down, but it’s also stable. You can’t pick out the big releases that some people think are causing problems. We’re not actively screwing things up as much as you may think. By tracking and getting very serious about inventory loss, and there’s 20 different equally weighted ways to lose inventory, we can do better.
Um. I sort of take exception to that. But maybe he’s right “We’re not actively screwing things up as much as you might think”……BUT GIVE US TIME WE’LL GET THERE!
You’re right about current performance in SL, we’re way past the annoyance stage and now we’re going to start haemorrhaging the less committed users – and those that are left should probably be committed immediately.
OK, so Linden want Second Life to become the HTML of virtual worlds, the standard that everyone uses, but how best to get there? Is the choice between open-source and proprietary code, which often is the difference between evolution and revolution? Open-source is an amazing way to evolve code, many minds making light work of debugging and securing. Proprietary code is usually much more driven by innovation – you need to achieve what others have not in order to have/keep the advantage.
Second Life has been proprietary up till now and it’s got us this far. I know there’s a huge contingent of code-heads baying for the server code to go open-source too but do we pander to them and risk losing the momentum? Or is it now so bad that SL will fall without their help to stabilise and optimise the current system?
As far as shadows and light-fall effects go, there must be a middle way – surely it has to be about appropriate technology? The only objects that need live-rendered shadows are the moving ones, everything static like buildings would be equally effective with baked shadows – maybe rendered once in-world as i suggested before. Maybe we could have the best of both worlds that way?
[...] in the health care industry are actively moving forward in attempts to help those in need. With a tip from Dusan Writer’s blog, Creakysites has an excellent listing of links to several entities that have entered online worlds. [...]
[...] dusan writer’s metaverse Mega Prim Creation Patch for Second Life Viewer Quote from the site – The long standing mega prim controversy may be partly resolved – by adding it [...]
It also got me to wondering what it is that people get from these things. Do people really draw motivation from this stuff? I have been reading Darren Brown’ s Tricks of the Mind , or at least re- reading sections of it, this week. He points out that m…
[...] Dating Avatars: Preparing for Face-to-Face Contact Autodesk, MegaPrims, and the 3D Pipeline Puzzles Continue Ambient Occlusion – Shadows in Second Life Rezzable, Rezzable Let Down Your Hair (including a long and thoughtful response on Rezzable’s strategy by RightAsRain. Posted in Metaverse General. [...]
fwiw, Microsoft made forays into the 3D market long before your examples. In fact, I’d argue that a major reason high-end 3D software became generally affordable was due in large part to MS’s purchase/port/sale of SoftImage back in ‘94.
As to Second Life’s 3D toolset, I’ve long wished for something more capable but doubt we’ll see Linden Lab significantly improve the tools until a competitor forces their hand.
With regard to MilleniuM, I’ll confess to not fully understanding what the big deal is. Getting CAD models into game engines is far from new (I was doing this with Quake in the 90’s); and getting CAD into virtual world engines is also not that big a deal (I used Pro/E to generate some preliminary models in There’s engine). Am I missing something?
[...] posted recently on the ever-deepening pipelines and networks for content creation, and Hamlet Au picked up on this [...]
On 05.17.08 Donald Schwartz said:
It’s odd, but for the most part no one talks about something that is actually available for creating files in a MAYA plug-in and importing into SL. Granted its’ far from perfect, but it’s certainly a start. The plug-in is called SLTkPro. The Japanese Company that created the plug-in charges too much and is very difficult to reach.
One of the outstanding problems you’ll see right away has to to with exporting textures….
On 05.17.08 Dusan said:
Actually, I think I’ve touched on this many times haha and use it religiously. And sure, texture imports are a drag, but just bake and upload and you’ve got a nicely rendered build.
But thanks for the reminder and for all others you can check out the plug in here.
Thought provoking perhaps, but I really can’t come to the same conclusions:
1. On “It would have been done already”: With the constant client updates and patches, any modification currently won’t last till the next patch.
2. The interface modding is terrribly complicated and build codewise, not some WYSIWYG interface interaction designers prefer. So you’d at least need a team of 2 ‘experts’ to get going with modifications.
3. With the investment involved (because of the difficulty in the construction, unlike interface mods in say, world of warcraft, who have outdone themselves in making it accessible to users as the interface is so relevant to the user) and the constant need for updates, it’s just not worth the time/effort to mod the public client.
4. Private clients are already being modded, but mostly in code. Nicholaz of course, apart from performance issues also added interface options such as dynamic stretching of pictures.
5. With every update – the interface seems to get worse. Starting with the communicate options all getting grouped, voice panels, the shouting dazzle skin and now the main chat window constantly disappears unless you press the little balloon to the side.
6. The first user experience is inexcusable. There are several good writeups on the major flaws – not just by sloppy work, but by design – in this first hours of SL.
7. I don’t think this ‘mastery of the interface’ is relevant at all. Sure, maybe it filters the new users down towards the users ‘willing to make an efford’ – like the early days firefox theory (people who use fire fox are smarter, because they have the will and know how to install a new browser) but this is not something to be proud about for a platform that tries to stay clear of this ‘geek niche’. Crap interfaces are exactly what they are, especially when trying to make an open world for everyone as ‘advertised’
8. The interface mods are not ‘dumbing donw’ the experience, its about creating a less steep learning curve, which means prioritization in the interface – there is a reason some buttons are bigger on this website, and some are text. These reasons are by no means represented in the interface of SL
9. I think the point to be made is ‘would a better user interface and first user experience significantly boost retention rate’, or is there something about SL that still won’t appeal to over 90% of initial sign ups, and does -that thing- deserve prioritization. In my opinion that will depend on what direction M will try to steer the ship first, as I’ve written about here.
On 05.20.08 Giff said:
Oh I don’t think you have it in for us. You are half right. CSI was meant to go for several months but not in perpetuity. The OnRez viewer, however, we were indeed hoping to continue to enhance for a long time. We decided to shift our focus.
I say look at SL’s growth rate. You’ve tapped out the number of people willing to put up with the accessibility and usability problems. But I do agree that better UI isn’t a silver bullet. There’s a long list of barriers to usage that doesn’t stop at UI, some around accessibility, technology requirements, cultural attitudes, and of course what should really come first: purpose.
But it is good to question these things!
On 05.20.08 Dusan said:
Bingo Giff. I’m with you.
Questioning the sacred cows is a way to circle around the real question – which is purpose.
The received wisdom is that we need to do things like improve the interface because we need to make the platform more widely accessible and remove the barriers to entry for the ‘casual’ explorer.
But what if you take these sacred cows and rip them apart a little.
Hypothetical –
What if instead of simplifying the user interface you made it MORE COMPLICATED? Just asking the question points to the idea that maybe we should be questioning the very assumptions on which all these received orthodoxies are based. What if the masses are all headed somewhere else? What if they’re going to be playing on little Metaplace apps all over the Web? What if they’re going to be addicted to Spore, and setting up little 3D rooms off of their MySpace profiles?
Maybe SL is destined to become increasingly specialized with more complex tools for visualization, simulation, creation, and art because, let’s face it, you can clean up the interface all you want but it doesn’t mean the masses will show up.
Here’s a what if:
- What if instead of cleaning up the buttons you add MORE. Say, embed a sculpty program like Cel’s SculptyPaint. Add MORE stuff to learn, and make it part of the “build tools” – add the ability to make sculpts from within the UI. Enable more complex builds rather than simplify.
- You add prim animations as its own interface.
- What if instead of making the camera and controls easier, you made them HARDER. Include the ability to program deeper camera paths, focus settings maybe, shutter speeds?
- What if you built a deeply detailed particle generation engine within the viewer. With a 100 little buttons and knobs, letting you push particles to their extreme outer limits.
Deepen the interface, make it more complex, (and deal with all the other issues like grid stability which is increasingly a cost of entry and survival issue and not a “feature”) and maybe you end up with a small group of users but they’re people who want to push the limits of simulation, 3D modeling, artificial intelligence, and machinima?
Now, I also totally agree with Digado. Because the interface is designed by someone who would never get a job at Apple. It’s a joke of usability design. (Although, IMHO, so is Maya and it still sells). But should we really be redesigning the interface because we want what’s THERE to be easier to use by the newbie and casual “surfer”…or should we be redesigning it so that it’s useful to those who need more powerful tools so that they can extend and deepen the platform beyond a beach house build or a classroom?
Food for thought, but the orthodoxy I’m questioning is as Giff points out: to what PURPOSE all these proposed changes and improvements?
I think the major problem to recognise here is the interface doesn’t match the (communicated/perceived)proposition of Second life.
It’s really as simple as that, the purpose.
- Lack of incentive makes people less willing to learn the interface – when its this complicated, they leave. Apparently for 90% there is no clear ‘gain’ from taking the time and effort to learn about the interface – which to me is perfectly understandable at this point.
- The 3D photoshop (a term coined by Eric Rice) application you get by introducing the features as you posted them, means repositioning second life as exactly that (as written about in the earlier article), and would just shift the ‘niche’ from a ‘3D facebook’ to a ‘3D deviant art’.
- The market SL addresses benefits from being browser-like. ‘Maya is complicated and still sells is true’, but the obvious difference is Maya is goal oriented, and a focus product for a specific niche, of tech savvy people (how many people inside the ‘mass market’ (early and late majority) will use maya? Again it comes down to SL trying to be everything to everybody.
___
P.S. – A common misconception is to think ‘browser like’ means ‘looks like a browser’ but it’s not. A browser is a great way to navigate trough 2D spaces, but that doesn’t make it true for 3D spaces (anyone who has ever been in an activeworlds based world will know this).
However, every button in a default browser is either task oriented or ubiquitous. The affordances used have become cross language conventions, which has made broad adoption possible very quickly. SL, if it wants to maintain the proposition of being everything to everyone, needs to use these common conventions and affordances to make their interface as intuitive as a browser.
On 05.21.08 Eris said:
Hmm Dusan, can open, worms everywhere….
My tuppence : we need a simpler UI for the casual visitor AND we need a more complex (read: professional) UI for the committed builder/resident/businessperson. In other words stop trying to make one size fit all and realise that there is a natural divide between ‘visitors’ and ‘residents’ and create two separate but complimentary clients to accommodate them – a simple to use browser AND a pro-level creation client.
Reflect that divide in the way we access SL too – free feature-limited access for ‘visitors’ and a subscription-based full-access for ‘residents’. Virtual world usage will naturally divide this way anyway, we should be smart enough to realise that now and plan around it.
Too many of the discussions around SL and other virtual worlds focus on the technical problems and possibilities (Dusan’s blog is a welcome exception to this!) because the discussion, and to a large extent the actual platform itself, is being led by developers. Not surprising for such an emergent platform but not always very helpful either. We’d get nowhere without the codeheads, but very few will have the vision a platform like SL needs. It’s not enough to imagine the technical possibilities of virtual worlds – you have to judge whether anyone will actually want to use those possibilities and what for.
In the end it’s always about the people, not the code.
On 05.21.08 Dusan said:
Digado – great points. But I suppose I’m opening up these discussions not so much because I believe the client is amazing, but to highlight that we have all these discussions about it and about the SL experience without being entirely sure that your stated purpose is TRUE.
Does the proposition that SL needs to be all things to all people stand? If it does, then I’m with Eris and you – let’s do up a simpler client. Hey, any improvement is an improvement. But if you’re truly going for the “we’re here for everyone – your grandmother, your kids, your browsing and exploring and experiencing desires” then sure, we need to have a stripped down, elegant, and easy-to-grasp client.
I’d propose however that the purpose and reality are increasingly at odds. Second Life is NOT being used for casual browsing – it’s being used for people who are deeply committed and are spending increasing numbers of hours in world. The community isn’t growing, but average user hours are. Concurrency is growing, but slowly.
And as Giff has pointed out, the mass media approach has moved on to other platforms – casual games, MTV, There.com (or back to There.com), custom apps, 2D worlds, etc.
So, if the masses are moving on, are we trying to lure them back? Or are we instead seeing the rise of Second Life as the “site of deepest engagement” – a place that appeals to and attracts folks who are going far deeper than dancing and hanging out at the beach – artificial intelligence researchers, educators, simulation folks, architects, artists, etc. If so, then you’re looking at a target audience that maybe is willing to overcome the learning curve if the tools keep getting more robust.
And all of this, of course, makes no difference if the grid isn’t stable. I’m taking as a given that if they don’t fix the asset server and improve grid uptime that they’ll never last in the long run.
So…well, I agree with you. I WANT Second Life to be a 3D platform that really DOES connect all of humanity. But Philip’s been going on for a year now about how “the brands came too early, we weren’t ready for a mass influx, and really, it’s schools and business-to-business and collaborative platforms where we’re REALLY at” which doesn’t sound a lot to me like “connecting all of humanity” (at least in the short term) and would imply that we should be building out tool sets for these target audiences rather than worrying about whether your newbie who came in for a peek around can find the “talk button”.
But look. I’m willing to give this a shot. Or pose a question – what does it REALLY take to make a simpler viewer? Let’s say one whose buttons and tools are so simple that they can mostly withstand the many updates and patches that Linden itself releases? Is that possible? How hard is it? Can we create a “newbie viewer” easily or is it monumentally difficult? And what would it take to motivate someone, anyone, to sit down and actually sketch something out?
Here’s a link to Loyalist’s youtube video of a Canadian Border Simulation in Second Life.
On 05.22.08 Eris said:
Maybe I’m way too cynical but Linden’s switch in emphasis to education and corporate usage seemed to be motivated by the need to keep SL commercially viable, and little else. They’ve tacitly acknowledged they can’t/won’t do much to protect IP within SL so they have to shift the inworld economy to something that doesn’t really require it – and suddenly we have corporate users clustering behind firewalls and education budgets being lured with ‘one avatar per child’ bait. Those users will always be welcome and important to SL but it seems like a short-term strategy to tide us over till the crowds return?
SL is the “site of deepest engagement”? Great phrase but why limit ourselves to that? Why does it have to be one or the other – dancers OR designers? We can have both, in fact we NEED both – but we should lead each one down a slightly different pathway into SL and realise that they came, and will ultimately stay, for slightly different reasons.
Sorry, that’s fourpence now…i’ll stop….
On 05.22.08 Dusan said:
Wow, thanks Ken. I’m appending the original post with the video.
[...] READ MORE (Including comments) AT NEW LOCATION Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)The Place of Alts in Second Life90 Percent of Business-Launched Virtual Worlds Fail Virtual theaterHow Second Life Affects Real Life Posted in Future Worlds, Metaverse Roadmap, Second Life, Second Life Experience, Virtual worlds, metaverse. Tags: alts, avatar, avatars, identity, Second Life, Virtual worlds. [...]
[...] Next Time Your Group Gets Spammed, Fine them $200M Killing Sacred Cows I: The Second Life Interface (During which I provoke, retreat, provoke again and come away wondering what it would take to make a simple client). Second Life as a Pedagogical Tool Pioneer Virtual College Looks To Profit from its Pioneering Autodesk, MegaPrims, and the 3D Pipeline Puzzles Continue Posted in Metaverse General. Tags: client, education, Linden Lab, pedagogy, Second Life, viewer. [...]
On 05.23.08 Sola Phobos said:
This is a better description of what the Wii Fit is all about.
@Dusan: One thing I think is worth considering with the idea of seeing SL as just the ‘deepest platform out there’ – in a way intentionally raising the bar to get in so you get a dedicated (creative) core – is I just haven’t really spotted something that would make me enthusiastic about the idea of ‘filtering trough interface’.
Filtering trough content, by peers, by advertising/positioning all work for me because it allows growth. You prioritize, specialise, become remarkable in your field and grow. But filtering trough interface is just a poor option given the choice of ‘fixing the interface and re-position’ or ‘make our software inaccessible to but the most enlighted’ on so many levels. The problem is, if you want to continue the maya comparison, is that SL is a social platform, and the essence of the entire project is the human factor.
Without that you’d be much better off designing in maya, or listening to music in iTunes, or watching pretty pictures in GTA IV of Flickr. Creation is sharing, not just with likeminded techs and other ‘3D artists’ but with a broad community. Inspiration doesn’t come from just navel gazing within one small niche, it’s culture brought to you from a diverse group of people.
So in whatever way you can amplify and facilitate this human factor, you should – and the proposition above has the counter effect, not just on the entry level, but also in the long term. Think of how that would shape a community, how it IS shaping the community.
On 05.23.08 Dusan said:
I WANT SL to reach the masses. I want dancers and community and explorers and wanderers and people who just want to mosey on through and check out the Greenies and then hit a music gig or go to a gallery. And the current client is an impediment to that – along with all the other impediments, and sacred cows and so on.
OK. So, I throw out the sacred cows and you guys have convinced me – it’s a sacred cow for a reason. We need a simpler way to interact with the world. So let’s get moving shall we?
On 05.23.08 Dusan said:
Well, I’m not entirely sure what your point is Max, but if you’re asking what I think the point is – well, I don’t know, other than Disney seems to be taking every step possible to grab people entering interactive spaces and keeping them (until of course they pull the plug and leave a bunch of avatars stranded on some cob-webbed server somewhere).
Disney’s model, much like Barbie say, is to own a “user journey” from childhood to adulthood, through dress-up to social spaces. Just keep an eye on your wallet, I’d say…kids don’t ask for an increase in their allowance anymore so they can buy a new bike or go to the store and buy gumballs, they want a bigger allowance so they can buy virtual sneakers and play more games and enjoy what can be highly engaging experiences (I was going to put the word addictive but that’s a term fraught with meanings of its own – is addiction to consumerism an addiction or just a cultural framework?)
Oh dear. I’m feeling practically like a socialist today.
[...] love Tom because he helps to articulate my vaguely formed notion of Strange Loops and which was described by Douglas Hofstadter in his book I Am A Strange [...]
Gosh, now that is a lot to chew on. Bewildered and overwhelmed as I am, I’ll do what I’m best at, and pick out the part I like best (me) to comment on
It is interesting to find myself poster girl for the immersive, non dissociative use of the metaverse. Serves me right, maybe, seeing Chestnut Rau complained about much the same thing about my quote of her post. Maybe I should really start putting a « warning : Devil’s advocate » footnote on those paragraphs.
Ah well, I think I made my point that, yes, although I think this is a perfectly valid way to use the 3D metaverse, and the one that proves immersion has nothing to do whatsoever with the baggage you bring or do not want to bring from your First Life, too, it is a pretty poor, restricted way to use the immense potential this new world offers.It’s like you say : we’re witnessing a cultural change, not just the advent of new tools.
I’m very much looking forward to your next thoughts on this. Until then I’ll say ciao (to be explained shortly on my blog, as well as the rush I’m in).
I think it’s important to formulate what definition of ‘a virtual world’ you use, because Second Life is one of many, and community based virtual world – which I think is quite ironic, is one of applications for an immersive, multi-user, digital platform
I loved Coming of Age in Second Life, but because of the authors background in anthropology, it’s only natural his study focuses on the social relations and implications which doesn’t do entirely justice to the full potential of these platforms (which is obviously why the book is called Coming of Age in Second Life, and not coming of Age in Virtual Worlds), and is the point Christian argues in which I find him being spot on.
Other than that I feel you raise more than a few excellent points (I think there is a lot, a LOT, to the point you bring up about culture – which is exactly why I’ve been wanting to talk to you ‘face to face’) and give them great context here. Absolutely one of the most interesting articles I’ve red so far.
On 05.24.08 Dusan said:
Digado – I agree, Christian IS spot on. EXCEPT for the part where he’s dismissive of 3D walled gardens. And sure I’m speaking partially through an anthropologists lens when I say that culture carries with it a deeper immersion, something that can keep a world running long after it might have faded off into the sunset. Look at Disney’s Magic Kingdom or Myst Online – both had cultures of sorts, and while the owners pulled the plugs there were still societies there. Really, what that points to is whether Linden can continue to make MONEY not whether the user base will run off en masse to openSim. Once a culture is established it can be pretty hard to uproot.
And Rheta – I don’t think you’re a poster girl for immersion, but I do have you on my wall as a towering thinker. However, you are arguing in your post, whether for provocation or devil’s advocacy that SL provides escape, and I think the point of my post is that I agree with you, albeit from a slightly different angle. Virtual worlds are virtual worlds because of the disconnect they cause from the actual, Tom would say (I think, I’m sure projecting a lot here!), and because they allow us a new way to express sociality.
I partly disagree on this last point – is it a virtual world if we have 4 users at opposite ends of the grid spinning prims but never talking to each other? Sure – just a dull one.
But I start to come at this definition of virtual worlds in a different way and one that may be as relevant to brands as it is to users or platform owners or experience developers. And that is that virtual worlds allow sociality, but virtual worlds with “legs” will also create cultures within them. The cultures within them are only possible if the users of those worlds have some ability to craft their own artefacts, their own tools, otherwise it’s a social site sponsored by Coke or whatever. And sure, Coke can learn what kinds of tools most befit it as a cultural icon, but most brands want to be PART of a culture not help to build one.
But the gap between the virtual and the actual doesn’t need to arise solely because we escape our actual lives into a culture, world, place, avatar, etc. It arises because we participate in techne. As Tom says, we are ALREADY virtual and always have been – so if we’re escaping our virtual selves from the actual world into an avatar in virtual world, all you’ve really done is introduced recursion.
What this position allows is an augmentationist to also benefit from the gap. So long as the participant creates a gap between actual and virtual by their participant through an avatar, they have opened the thin wedge of possibility, and by participating in techne are participating not in epistime but extending human potential. Culture would thus seemingly arise in a grid full of augmentationists as much as a grid full of immersionists – the gap might be much tighter when you remove, say, anonymity, but it doesn’t mean that the gap disappears. Participation in techne gives rise to culture, virtuality gives rise to the gap, and it’s the strength of the culture (reinforced rather than ‘blurred’ by the loop between the actual and virtual) and the power of the tools that unleashes our potential.
It seems to me that this makes the tent wide enough for us all. Escape becomes another word for creating a more pronounced gap, and thus more pronounced potential, but it’s not a precondition to that gap occurring – the gap which Tom calls the source of our new possibilities for human being.
I’d also say that while this tent is wide enough to include both a tight coupling of the actual and the virtual, culture, immersion, escape – all that good stuff, it’s not quite wide enough to embrace simulation or 3D commerce. Those are applications of techne, but they’re not recursive.
A game is not recursive. It is not techne as a product of techne – it’s a game, it’s virtual, it can even be cultural. But it’s generally not recursive – it is not techne within it. (It’s interesting, as a side note, to to think about Spore in this context, because it will be recursive, it certainly will contain techne with it, and I wonder whether that doesn’t open up a discussion of whether you need avatars to be present simultaneously to consider it a virtual world, or in this case a virtual universe).
3D commerce is not recursive either – and while a gap can still be created through clever use of avatars, sociality, and perhaps even, to a degree, culture, it doesn’t generally open us up to greater potentials, that wonderful space where we have the tools within the technology itself.
The definition of “virtual world” is broad and wide. I’ll stick (for now, because it deserves far deeper thought, and maybe our discussion Digado!) with a virtual world being a place spawned by technology that is always on and where you have a sense of presence. Where stuff can change and evolve even when you log off.
And sure, that casts a wide net – games, casual game portals with little 2D avatars, or a 3D room on a Facebook profile. But what defines SOME virtual worlds, like Second Life, is that the tools for cultural expression reside with the users rather than the platform owners. Techne within techne is the source of greater possibility. Which would include the former Sims online, openSim, etc. and the subtle differences and power of one platform over another can then be parsed through the power of the tools, our ability to create a larger gap through avatar expression, the abilities for sociality, and the cultural contexts on which the platforms are predicated – cultural capitalism in the case of Second Life. What defines the OpenSim culture, I wonder – Second Life arose from concepts of property and ownership attached to the recursive techne. Is OpenSim’s defined by the lack of these concepts?
None of these things then guarantee a culture, but the way you tweak the buttons and the ‘engine’ will give rise to different cultural outcomes. Thus, my argument in one form or another to introduce greater tools to a platform like Second Life is predicated on the idea that I’d like to see the culture continue to thrive because of the ability for users to deepen their ability to express new cultural artefacts, whether those dividuals doing the expression are companies, scientists, casual users, or escapists.
Having said that, the ability for the culture to thrive and change and grow – for social norms to evolve, for potentials to be expanded, for the gap to be expanded because of the strange loop between the virtual and the actual, is hindered if the society is too closed. Expanding the tool set in a way that raises the barriers to entry doesn’t do anything to help the culture thrive, it just makes the culture insular, and so you end up with the paradoxical argument that we need both more advanced tools and a far simpler way to become a participant.
On 05.25.08 Giff said:
Just to clarify, I wrote that post about virtual worlds shrinking to “palm of your hand” in a rush, but I was actually speaking metaphorically. I think there will be extensions to mobile devices but I think it is too early to be working on a killer virtual world app in that realm.
No, I was referring to a conception (I sense) out there that vworlds must be these big things. Part of is the term “world”. I think we can take these technologies and concepts and make them smaller, easier, more focused.
However, I don’t believe it is a one-or-the-other thing. This industry will fragment into a lot of different approaches as it grows up and focuses on solutions to particular problems, rather than “here’s this neat thing, now go figure out what to do with it.”
If one thinks that the metaverse is somewhat separate from the Web, then one wants to see a huge overarching platform. But I believe that it will be very much part of the Web for quite a while.
On 05.25.08 Giff said:
oh and I didn’t get this line “(I kid you not, by the way, the Sheep did have a game in there).”
Now I’m all puzzled what you are referring to — we haven’t done anything with FlowPlay/OurWorld.
The much-anticipated game Spore will let you create creatures outside the game, in a separate program called the Spore Creature Creator. I think the creature creator is also built in to the game itself.
SL could have that – the ability to adjust your avatar while not being inworld. I think Linden Lab’s priorities are on getting the grid more stable, which means changing the whole underlying grid architecture, including how avatar data is stored and managed. Once that’s all sorted out, I imagine it would be straightforward to write a stand-alone program to edit your avatar in private, as it were.
On 05.25.08 Dusan said:
@Troy – Spore will be a “game changer” for all kinds of reasons, including the creature editor, and especially because of the concept of procedurality, which I think SL actually supports, if you think about it, and with Mono might be able to execute!
Gif – thanks for the clarification, and while I agree with you, just as I agree with Christian’s predictions, I also think that if you don’t establish a deeper culture then it’s a game, or a diversion, but it’s harder to get the kind of stickiness that’s everyone’s dream. (Although, also don’t get me wrong – brands are a source of culture on their own – MTV is a culture, and even a micro MTV might have more staying power than some 45,000 prim OpenSim).
It’s not to say it can’t happen in a micro space, just that it might be harder – but frankly, I haven’t thought this through that much and defer to your far better judgment.
As for OurWorld….hmmm. Apologies, and I’ll correct the post. But have a look at the screen shot – Microsheep I thought was your new venture into smaller “casual games”!
[...] The Interface One received orthodoxy is to dumb down the interface, make it easier to use, nest the tools and buttons and menu items so that the new user is faced with only a few easy choices. The conventional wisdom is that someone gets to SL and they’re so confounded with choice that they leave instead of face the grueling tasks of figuring out how to fly, drive, walk, teleport, build, chat, IM, join groups, search the grid. [...]
Before I clutter up your comments with a lengthy response, I wanted to share with you a paper that has me thinking, drinking and rethinking entitled “Virtual Worlds Don’t Exist”.
You can find the pdf here: http://virtual-economy.org/files/Lehdonvirta-VWDE.pdf
Once you’ve had the chance to read it (and maybe you have but I doubt it because you would have likely referenced it) I’d love to continue this discussion in the context of “The Magic Circle”.
On 05.26.08 Dusan said:
Yay! The magic circle!
Will do. And it’s interesting, Tom speaks a lot about the magic circle and blurring of actual and virtual and makes the point that for all the discussion of the “membrane” most people look at it the wrong way. However, I’ll reserve comments for now and thank you for the link!
On 05.26.08 Eris said:
What made us so special? What did we see in SL that others didn’t? We arrived in SL, persevered with it, learned the interface and ultimately (to varying degree) stayed – we did all that because we found reasons to do it.
Other people will do it too when they see good reason to. The orientation process could certainly be improved but it’s pretty incidental really – what people really need are more good reasons to stay.
If it will work against game piracy then could it work against content piracy within virtual worlds, which are using the same game technology? I know the common assumption is that we’ll all end up on one homogenised grid one day soon – but imagine if we don’t. Imagine Linden don’t knock down the walls of their (already profitable) garden…
Thanks for such a thoughtful and juicy post! Although I plead guilty to spending an inordinate amount of time analyzing and theorizing about this stuff, and enjoy this kind of discussion, the Virtual World that can be told is not the eternal Virtual World (to paraphrase Lao Tzu.)
So I wonder if our disagreements stem primarily from mistaking our subjective viewpoints for universal truth. It’s like the old folk tale of the blind men who were asked to describe an elephant through their experience of being next to one part of its body. The person who felt the trunk thought it was a snake. The man at the leg thought it was like a trunk and the unlucky soul who was standing under it’s backside thought it felt like shit.
Personally, I’m rooting for those with all points of view to go after their visions (assuming they aren’t in the take over the world category), because as you said, the tent is wide. Predictions of the future are interesting but almost always off-base. The coolest new things that emerge are unanticipated.
[...] worlds. He also – and this, to me, shows how few are the degrees of separation in the blogosphere – references my old blogfriend Think Artificial in a story about Second Life coming to the [...]
[...] May 2008 · No Comments I was over reading Dusan’s blog and a paper linked in its comments that sent me into a little mental spin. Normally I’d just [...]
[...] My Avatar is Not Me, or, Why Virtual Worlds Will Not Become Appliances My avatar is my interface to a culture, and in this case, the culture in which my avatar performs (just as I perform in the actual world within my own culture) has the unique property that it’s recursive and that its basis is techne – one in which the tool we’ve built in silicon and wire contains the tools within it. Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Bring Your Avatar Into RL with a 3-D PrinterHatred, Faith and Cultural Identity Posted in Second Life, Second Life Experience, Virtual worlds. Tags: Second Life. [...]
[...] out of New York or Singapore these days – just don’t discount that the cultural industries are creeping every so slowly into the “game culture” of yesterday, and they might have one or two [...]
The interface should not crash twice in 5 minutes. It especially should not crash twice in 5 minutes after teleporting into a bug fix triage session related to the multi-crashing interface. Worse yet, after mentioning this in open chat, none of the 7-10 present Lindens expressed any sorrow/regret over their product performing poorly.
On 05.29.08 Dusan said:
Yeah – see, there’s the interface discussion and then there’s the plumbing. And it doesn’t matter how you handle the interface, if the pipes are backed up you’ve got yourself one stinky mess.
On 05.29.08 Eris said:
So i look at those images and it makes me ask why would you want to do all that while sitting on a toilet (doing a doo-doo)?
I see it’s a good metaphor for the complexity of interface but isn’t it a better one for the current state of SL and beyond? I hear about all the plans and ambitions people have for virtual worlds and wonder how many of them pause to wonder WHY anyone would want to do any of it in a virtual world? Same goes for the 3D web too. It might be very pretty but does a screen full of flying interactive 3D gizmo-gadgets REALLY get information across better than a page of text?
It’s probably a necessary phase we’ll go thru’, but it seems to me we (yes, that includes me!) are currently trying to cram so much crap into SL most of which is always going to work better in RL. When there are people offering to let you make phone-calls from within SL we’ve lost the plot!
For Second Life and other virtual worlds to succeed we need to figure out what we can do in virtual worlds we CAN’T do anywhere else and what we can do in virtual worlds BETTER than we can do anywhere else.
Ironically enough, I’ve previously been asked if i sell toilets in SL
On 05.29.08 Dusan said:
Eris – have you read the Laws of Simplicity by John Maeda? Really – it not only speaks to SL, to virtual worlds….well, it speaks to everything really, including my life which has definitely seen a feature creep of massive proportions.
What I like about it, however, is that first, it’s a simple read. And as someone who has 7 books on the go at once, it was such a nice little pause in my world of information overload. But second, he highlights that simplicity is mulit-faceted. It’s not just about having fewer buttons, it’s the interconnected execution of a few simple concepts (he came up with 10) and a few “keys” (he came up with 3).
So, for example, we often talk about “reduce” – get rid of buttons, reduce clutter, reduce unwanted features. But he also talks about (to randomly choose 2) emotion and differences as laws.
Emotion – more emotions are better than less. He brings in this law because he recognizes that sometimes “simple/clean” doesn’t hit an emotional note with some people. As he notes “there will always be die-hard modernists who refuse any object that is not white or black…(but) my mother finds the iPod entirely unattractive….When emotions are considered above everything else, don’t be afraid to add more ornamentation or layers of meaning….”Form follows function” gives way to the more emotional approach to design: “Feeling follows form”.
Which is to say that simplicity when based in modernism ignores that objects, environments and interfaces can create a feeling. (My feeling about the current client is: utilitarian, boring, drab, confusing, and not empowering).
The other law, again just choosing randomly, is “difference – or, complexity and simplicity need each other”. He sums it up by saying “The more complexity there is in the market, the more that something simpler stands out….That said, establishing a feeling of simplicity in design requires making complexity CONSCIOUSLY AVAILABLE in some explicit form.”
Thus, I suppose, the idea floating around that the menus within the client should be nested.
And P.S. – how come you didn’t take the toilet selling job? And have you checked out the Baron’s High Colonic Sale? They have some outhouses that are creative masterpieces.
[...] Second Life as a Pedagogical Tool (Dusan Writer’s Metaverse): [...]
On 05.29.08 Eris said:
I think i have some kind of genetic defect Dusan, a defect which manifests as a near-total inability to do what i’m told. It’s adolescent i know but presented with any book called The LAWS of Simplicity i think my only reason to read it would be to find creative ways to BREAK the aforementioned laws. I know, just a big old kid really…
As if to prove the point i don’t quite agree with your suggestion that ‘Modernism ignores that objects…create feeling’ or maybe i’d just put it another way – Modernist objects create their own feeling (and they don’t really care whether you like it or not!). I agree that the current SL interface is utilitarian but, to me, that’s one of its best qualities. It needs more thought and flair certainly but it should always maintain some utilitarian modesty, unlike Dazzle. I still think we should have a twin-track client for SL, but i’ve ranted on about that enough here already.
Your comments about the book remind me of that quote “Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication” which i’ve often seen attributed to Steve Jobs but (i think) more correctly belongs to Leonardo da Vinci. Makes sense that simplicity doesn’t necessarily mean stripping away all the buttons – it means making the device/UI simple to understand and that’s a more complex equation.
BTW, another nail you seem to have hit is the prospect of adding rendered shadows to SL. They appear to be beta testing it now and that infamous bitchy comment made on Tues’ by a Linden was in direct reference to its implementation: https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/2008-May/009930.html
You’re just one step ahead all the way Dusan, huh?
On 05.29.08 Dusan said:
Eris I adore you. And by the way, it’s not my suggestion about modernism, it’s John’s…however, I did quote him so I’ll fall on my sword and admit I’m one of those folks who will probably find that Dazzle grows on them. I like steampunk. I like gritty, buttons, dials and whizzygigs. I also like the iPhone and I think the Oxo peeler is perhaps humanity’s greatest invention since the orrery.
However, based on the link you provided, there’s another aesthetic rolling along at the Lab.
Personally? I’d fire him on the spot. Has M Linden even started working yet? What the hell is going on over there?
On 05.29.08 Dusan said:
Edit> Spoke too soon for M hath spoken.
On 05.30.08 Eris said:
Oooh, a Steampunk UI for SL, how i would love that…it could puff steam and blow smoke when u clicked on things and creak and groan as windows opened and closed with big metallic clangs…
I cannot live, WILL NOT live with Dazzle as it exists now and don’t even start-up the latest RC build until i’ve patched Dazzle away – I call it Sunblocking, not skinning!
I’m going to have to call “bullshit” here, Dusan. That conversation took place on the SLDev list, and while I agree that the message that you extracted certainly has some *cough* shortcomings and is fraught with *face palm* one liners ripe for out of context stand up routines, it most certainly was not in the realm of community relations, it was on a *developers* mailing list.
I’ve spent a good deal of my life on developer mailing lists. The communication can be frank, reactive, often under stress and rarely is it about giving the end users roses and champagne, but more often about the next cool shiznet and how to get there. That’s a necessity if you are going to move a platform ahead.
That said, it must be matched with a healthier ballast of things like oh, stability of which we’d likely agree we are lacking.
On 05.30.08 Dusan said:
Yeah – I see your point Grace, and I know the dev lists are rough and tumble…but this isn’t exclusive to that list lately – there’s been some mentor chat, some in-world responses to issues and a few other things that strike me as being indicative of a kind of hubris that I haven’t seen quite as pronounced in a while. Maybe they’re all stressed with a new boss, and maybe I’m choosing something because it’s the best way to illustrate a point.
Sure, it’s not meant to be “community relations” when you’re tossing stuff around ona dev list, but this shows how the decision process is made cowboy style. And while dev lists are for the code jockeys, sure, we’re in the adult world now – the combination of the Libertarian Tao of Linden is also taken to an arrogant extreme when put in the wrong hands.
I totally disagree that this is how you move the platform ahead. You move the platform ahead because you have a coherent vision to which the code is subservient.
You have Tao at the top and hubris at the front lines, and all that stands between is an ineffective JIRA. Although maybe M will give us all a hand and drag us out of decisions being made micro-style with no macro framework, by a bunch of folks who need to thump their chests a lot to push their own versions of the SL vision.
And rendered shadows would be wonderful. But shouldn’t they reassign this task to the back burner and put all hands on fixing the stability issues? Oops – sorry, under Tao you do what you wish to do, it’s how we advance the platform.
[...] even the most basic mechanics of outreach. Hubris and Complicity In all deference to Grace who took me to task for saying that the sarcasm and arrogance of a Linden on the SLDev list was all about the context [...]
On 05.31.08 Eris said:
“You move the platform ahead because you have a coherent vision to which the code is subservient.”
Great post, Dusanwriter. Linden’s new social organizing philosophy is downright comfusing. Looking at things like SL5B with its crackdown on non-traditional cultures and the development of Bay City (What is that, by the way? A Linden WPA to help inworld builders through the Grid’s Great Depression? A Linden corporate reaction to the anarchic design principles of the mainland? Some Love Machiner’s “cool idea”?), it’s clear that they’re looking to change the Second Life grid…but what for? Better press? More corporate investment? Preparation for an IPO/buyout?
To be a fly on the wall at Linden Lab right now…
(And yeah, M Linden has his work cut out for him.)
what a shame… and even though we will have a much better build, it won’t be noticed. once again our community is pushed off to the side. even though we pay the same amount of money in terms of tier, sim fees, and everything else…. and the fact that a good number of us ARE age verified. its really disheartening to hear about things like this. what are they so afraid of? maybe if they had a GOOD PR person, they could be like, well shut up sky news, they’re all verified adults so piss off.
[...] welcome at SL5B. There’s already a lot written about it – fav title is by Dusan Writer ‘Lock Up Your Kids, Tie Up Your Kajira, It’s Time to Celebrate‘ – and I suggest you go and read on those blogs. I mainly want to say that I still stand [...]
[...] the meantime, I’ll join my voice to that of Ordinal Malaprop, Marianne McCann and Loki Eliot, Dusan Writer, Daniel Regenbogen, Erbo Evans and many, many others in saying how utterly disappointed I am in [...]
On 05.31.08 Shin said:
I hate to agree with Lindens on anything..but I think Grace called this right. I may agree with you that they should be working on stability issues rather than shadows..but..if they have a guy working on shadows..he should be doing it for current or future cards…not 3 gen old cards. I’m on a 7 series myself, so would not get the benefit…but I’ve gone up 3 generations of card since I’ve been inworld over the last 2 years to try (not always sucessfully) to get better performance…and will quite possibly be on an 8 series by the time this is implemented anyway…and even if I’m not…so what? I won’t see shadows. I’ve spent my whole gaming life chasing the latest game graphically…never getting closer than “just about enough card” for maybe 2 or 3 months. I’ve been chasing SL since I logged on. Doesn’t stop me from coming in..just makes me drool at the ad’s for the next gen card..^_^.
Now..you want to talk hubris…I think your column on the child avi SL5B builds points that out much better…^_^. They could have just accepted the builds (in PG regions), and made the content decisions based up the normal PG rules. That way they would not have felt they had to exclude any SL group. As for the dev above..he should be programming for the 10,000 series…^_^
You post excerpts are exclusively from that list, although your points may have been otherwise, I didn’t see any examples of such. Mentors are volunteers not Lindens; they represent or speak for Linden Lab. As for other things, you’d have to be more clear on that point for me to understand.
“You move the platform ahead because you have a coherent vision to which the code is subservient.”
In practical terms, if you don’t allow your technical team to have forward thinking space and freedom, call it “vision”, then they get complacent and stale.
So yes, please have some product management vision and a means by which to execute against that, but don’t expect to be ahead of the game if all you have to execute are code monkeys clattering away in the background waiting for the next work order.
It’s about balance; all product vision with no technical forward thinking lends itself to being dangerously ignorant and behind in the marketplace.
We should probably ask – “What percentage of development hours are going against innovation versus sustainment?” That might be a more meaningful conversation rather than exchanging mantras.
I think that it _is_ community relations, just within the dev and technical community – and while that community is quite robust and used to a bit of joshing and rough-and-tumble in this way, that particular statement made many people very cross.
I would rather people didn’t feel restricted when saying things in this sort of arena, honest communication saving a lot of time in development, but one always has to mind oneself a _bit_, just out of politeness. (And If it _wasn’t_ the result of frustration, or a sudden sarcastic whim, and does actually reflect opinion, then that is quite a serious issue.)
On 05.31.08 Dusan said:
Then I’m glad we got the dialog going Grace and Shin, although sure, I’ll concede that I had the bad manners to take something which really wasn’t ever intended for the context in which I slammed it.
So, certainly – innovate from within, push the limits, and push the minimum spec needed to ‘enjoy the grid’ while you’re at it – Blue Mars is doing it, SL should prep for it, and I’ve been dreaming of rendered shadows and ambient occlusion from day one. I retract this as an example of community relations.
It really makes me stop and wonder, however, whether I should stop contributing “mantras” to this wider debate – far wiser minds than mine have obviously thought long and hard about it. I certainly appreciate the insight into management theory as well, Grace, and I think you’ve got something there about giving space to the team to push the limits.
Linden has done quite well with its approach, philosophy, attitude, coding gurus, and continues to be sustained by the thoughtful insight of the long time residents. So apologies because I really feel like I hit some sort of sore spot – and again, retract this as any sort of indication of Linden’s overall attitude, culture, or as a small signature of hubris – as you so rightly point out, this is what’s needed – innovation, pushing limits, pushing back and pushing the envelope.
I’ll try in the future to contribute more than a few mantras, really this blog is just random observations and feelings, but I should try to show respect for the coders and management style that’s brought us so far.
I appreciate your patience Grace and Shin, sometimes we need to stumble around a little looking for the root of our frustrations and often find them misplaced.
On 05.31.08 Dusan said:
Side note: Nicholaz comments about this as well, with a link to the perspectives of others on the SL forums. A combination of anxiety over minimum specs, misunderstanding of where the project was in the development path, and folks who just didn’t understand that the Linden I pointed to in the first place was stressed out.
On 05.31.08 Beau Dodson said:
I actually owned Pong. lol I guess it was fun at the time!
On 05.31.08 Ruslan Laryukov said:
Dusan, great blog.
I find it regrettable that LL has decided to snub three of its more significant and loyal constituencies by excluding them from SL5B: kid avis, gor and bdsm.
I find it doubly regrettable that LL has lumped the kids community – in my experience, one of the nicest, smartest and *least* sexual communities within SL – together with gor and bdsm. Not that I have any objection to the latter – or for that matter, anything else between consenting adults. To paraphrase Voltaire, “I may not like what you roleplay, but I will defend to the death your right to roleplay it.”
I simply resent the insinuation that the kid community is centered around sex, because that is just false. Furthermore, we are not child molesters. In fact, virtually everyone I know in the kid community really cares deeply about real kids (just look at our fundraising for real kid charities) and has zero tolerance for anyone who would hurt a RL kid. Nor do we abound in real kids hiding behind the kid avis. Our community is probably tougher than most of SL about reporting any real kids who sneak in.
Most of us just want to be young and happy again, to release our inner child, to re-experience our youth with the good stuff – and without the bad stuff, which for some of us was really bad. Particularly for gay people, our school years were usually somewhere between lonely and nightmarish. Is it anything to be ashamed of that we want to re-experience them in the way that we wish they had been? Does LL really feel they have to sweep this under the rug? Aren’t emotional needs (not to mention civil liberties) like these one of the business premises of “Second Life”?
Perhaps LL thinks they can make piles of money turning SL into a corporate virtual networking platform. If so, good luck. I guess you don’t need us. But right now, the kid community represents a fairly large base of loyal users who pay significant real money into SL. It is a shame that LL doesn’t have the backbone or vision to see that publicly advocating “roleplay rights” (i.e. virtual or fictional activities between consenting adults) is in their business interests.
As a note, Everett Linden replied on the Massively post, suggesting that Gor and BDSM exhibitors would not be banned – (Report from Massively)
It’s actually not entirely clear, but he does say:
> Child avatars are welcome at the celebration. However, we do respectfully decline the submissions we received to create exhibits for the event.
>
> Goreans, role-players, and members of the multitude of international communities are all welcome, and I hope you come.
which would suggest, since Goreans et al are mentioned in the same sentence as everyone else apart from child avs, that they are not banned from exhibiting.
[...] policy, volunteer Updated with more links: Rai Fargis – The “SL5B” PR Desaster Dusan Writer – Lock Up Your Kids, Tie Up Your Kajira, It’s Time to Celebrate So, sure, you can come aboard, and you can lock up your private island and keep the weirdos out – [...]
On 05.31.08 Dusan said:
We’ll look for their clarification on Monday, I suppose Ordinal – and by the way, wonderful post on the subject, and I feel it important that you not give up on relatives however stubborn they might be.
@Russy – I’m not even sure anymore that they’re organized enough to be making decisions based on favouring corporate customers. I’m still waiting on an e-mail to billing after all (3.5 weeks and counting).
This isn’t about censorship or discrimination, it’s about the Lindens as a private company promoting what they wish. And I think they probably reflect the majority of people on the grid, who find the slavery and violence of Gor and BDSM distasteful and uncomfortable, and who are creeped out by kids on the adult grid, even though we’re told a million times (and we don’t frankly buy it) that these kids are never, ever sexualized.
Voltaire should have been asked whether he felt the creepiness of adults playing children or the slavery and violence of Gor and BDSM were what he intended by freedom of expression.
But…it’s not *about* freedom of expression, which has not been curtailed. That’s why I find all the protesting about this misguided. It’s about *not promoting what you don’t like*. The Lindens have chosen *not to promote what they don’t like*. Yes, a bitter lesson. They don’t like a lot of stuff. Me, for instance, on the forums. Goreans in the birthday build, for instance. And that’s their right, as a private company on their servers.
What we can only hope to do is to morally shape them, not legally complain about censorship or discrimination, which are not the case here. We can try to get them to be more inclusive or not. In this case, I think the Lindens have made a prudent and civilized policy not to let minority lifestylers fill up the public space with creepy and shocking and violent stuff, and that’s ok. They haven’t banned it; they’ve said they don’t wish to promote it.
On 06.01.08 Daniel Regenbogen said:
Prok, you are wrong on more than one account. If you didn’t see the exhibits by the kids community before, you have been blind – they were there from the first SL birthday celebration. Last year amongst others things with a giant sandcastle. Oh and a picture exhibition about being a kid avatar.
Now, this year the celebrations are all under the banner of diversity, LL themselfs called for the communities und cultures to participate and contribute, to present themselfs. Now, at the very last moment, when stuff already was at least partly build and the talks were about how and where to setup – they got told: “Oh, not you, you are not included.”
This is a cowardly decision – and a shame that LL gives away the opportunity to conter the attacks from wannabe-journalists and instead choses to punish its paying customers.
–
Kids5B – LL doesn’t want us to present ourselfs at the offical party – we will do our own!
The guy is of course right to do an experimental feature for hardware that is easiest to support it. But what crossed people is that he makes gives the impression that hardware which most people consider up to date (not razor cutting edge though) is hopelessly backwards (my own machine would fall into this category and calling a graphics card, which had cost me $150 just a year ago “obsolete” isn’t going to make him friends).
The other thing is, as I’ve pointed out in my blog, is that from past experience, people extrapolate what happens from the point when somewhere in LL someone comes up with a new “this is something we’re working on” thing.
With a different company (one with a different track record of how to implement innovations) and a different attitude (even his very first announcement and call for feedback came with some preemptive “get to grips” comments) an announcement like this would have had the guy covered in rose petals.
With LL however, there is a reason that people are quick to draw torches and pitchforks … even if it’s just bad communication and a bad-day, the communication quirks have quite a history with the Lab.
Hear, hear! Great post and lots of great comments. I could care less about the specific LL celebration, but the hypocrisy and the precedents for the future of virtual worlds freedom of expression and tolerance toward others is at stake
1) There is nothing inherently wrong with choosing a kid avatar to express one’s inner child, to find a place to escape the adult responsibilities of RL.
2) People that look at kid avatars and automatically assume the worse are likely projecting their own dark and repressed tendencies. They are the ones we need to keep an eye on. o.O
[...] Why graft collaboration onto Second Life when IBM is slowly grafting it on to Lotus: [...]
On 06.01.08 Dusan said:
Prok – thanks for the post, and I’ve responded with a longer one of my own. I do feel a little confused – because on the one hand you deride these particular forms of freedom of expression, and on the other say that it’s not about that anyways. You comment on ‘creepiness’ but don’t allow a response back on that point because you instead say that it’s not about the content it’s about the right of the Lab to exclude what they wish.
You imply that this wish to exclude these things might be because these things are creepy, shocking and violent but protect yourself in the mantle of a commercial entity’s right to decide.
I have no quibble with the Linden’s right to do what they want, and promote how they wish. But your implication is that they’ve made this decision to set a tone for what kind of community they want to represent, and that kids and Gor and BDSM is too “creepy, shocking and violent”. But first, these are PG sims we’re talking about, and second, these are multi billion dollar market segments.
This leaves us with the conclusion that they have the right to make BAD decisions as well. Which is true, but their bad decisions aren’t because of a FIC, their bad decisions are because they don’t really know WHO they’re marketing to, don’t understand the competition, and don’t really know what it means to retain customers through community relations.
So in the end, sure, they can do what they want. But don’t imply that they’re doing it because they’re sanitizing us from creepiness as sound business practice. There’s nothing sound about it.
What we can probably agree on is they don’t run their operations very well, market poorly, and have sub-optimal communication skills. We also agree that we as a community shouldn’t rely on the Lindens for anything more than billing, the ability to log in (usually), and an occasional upgrade or two followed by endless patches.
Very nice piece. The idea I like best is for each community in SL (each resident in SL) to celebrate the birthday however they like, with their own things, and some shared and commonly-administered way to communicate about who’s doing what. That’d be great, and clearly it would include all the communities and residents that wanted to put the effort into it.
LL isn’t keeping this from happening, and I’m glad to see that the child-AV folks will be having birthday celebrations of their own. But it does bother me that LL will be using their resources, including my membership and tier fees, to do an Official birthday celebration that’s selective, and that excludes certain groups (and especially because it excludes them from unstated reasons).
This is entirely within LL’s legal rights, of course; they’re a private business. But all sorts of things that are within someone’s legal rights are a bad idea, a sad thing, a mistake, a dumb thing; and I’m quite sure that having an Official birthday celebration that excludes the child-AV folks (and anyone else of similar good intent) is one of those dumb mistakes…
Tx for the well-thought-out posting, and the well-chose examples.
[...] Creativity is on the scene again. Hardly that one JIRA will help some people to realize what Dusan Writer put so well: you’d better realize that this IS the Wild West, and it’s that way for a reason – [...]
On 06.01.08 Daman Tenk said:
Linden needs to retain the users it has, and it’s not doing such a great job of that
It’s more that the competition is doing a great job of that.
I wouldn’t be in SL anymore if there was a solid alternative. What is there currently? There.com? Utter crap. OpenGrid? I want to try it, but it doesn’t work properly yet for me. Too experimental still. World of Warcraft? I’m not interested in hacking and slashing through monsters 18 hours a day just to get to level 70 and be accepted into the community.
On 06.01.08 Dusan said:
Damen – I agree. Maybe Blue Mars will fit the bill. Or RealXtend and OpenSim will get legs. I actually think, however, that it’s not so much competition from other virtual worlds following similar models with moderate improvements in technology, but rather completely new platforms and approaches that’s the biggest threat to SL.
It’s not just competing with other virtual worlds that matters, it’s competing for attention. For content creators, it’s competing with the myriad 3D development tools that are now nearly free, and easy to use. It’s competition for the talent and desire and will of the people who create this “World of Imagination” because without those talents, no matter how misaligned their prims, you don’t have much of a world. For immersionists, role-players, students, teachers, and business it’s competing for attention against games, and Facebook, Twitter, Moodle, Jazz and Google.
I don’t see masses running off to set up a homestead on OpenSim – sure, some will, but until it’s all one big integrated mess (I shudder to even mention open source, it will be even more chaotic than what we have now, as evidenced by all the mini grids popping up). Why would I go through this all over again? Learning to build, script, texture, animate with some new tool set that will give me pretty much what disappointed me the first time around?
I’m more likely to go to Spore when it comes out and let IT suck up 100s of hours of my life. Or I’m more likely to do what Gif at ESC says and surf the Web and stumble across a lot of little mini worlds, corporate things, casual games – enter Metaplace, another source of competition for my time and what little talent I can offer.
So sure, there’s no major Second Life alternative right now if you mean a 3D make-it-yourself Grid, but there are more and more 3D apps, ways to make things, ways to contribute if you have a bit of talent, and emerging communities to support you, and maybe even turn a profit doing it.
And there are more and more things competing for my attention if I just wanna game.
So you’re right, Daman, the competition is nibbling at their heels and their response? Prok can call it defense against “repulsive” communities, but I call it biting the hand that feeds you.
Well thats the point isn’t it Daman? The continious mismanagement by LL and kick the community in the face is something that seems to have become somewhat of a game. The next thing you know you have a ‘public outcry’ dominating the blogosphere again, but we already know the outcome.
LL is going to do some half assed clarification on copyright violation (gor) and earlier rulings (keeping SL safe together) banning violence in some half assed manner, and the community will be furious, and then… that is it. No one leaves, no one changes a thing, LL will continue to think of the community as something creating numbers to present to the corporate industry (300 gazillion user generated content objects created!)
So is it strategy or stupidity – and who is using who? Afterall, controversy is attention for both the blogs and SL.
On 06.01.08 Eris said:
SAD = Senseless and Dysfunctional
Jeez, I thought everyone knew that acronym…
On 06.01.08 Dusan said:
Haha …. kind of the “bad press is better than no press” theory Digado?
But yeah – same old same old. Dependence on the Lindens is, well, co-dependence I suppose, an abusive relationship? Something like that. Run your own show, think of them as a utility and take it from there.
[...] EA is making no promises, this picks up on earlier comments at a European 3D convention that EA sees the future in both micro-transactions and user-generated [...]
On 06.02.08 Morris Vig said:
As much as I don’t care for the corporatization of SL, I can’t blame the companies for what’s been described. The wrong employee, doing the wrong thing inworld, could REALLY hurt the employer on the PR and legal liability front.
What kills me is that this approach stymies the creative juices of their employees. There are CREATIVE minds on these staffs, who see the rampant creativity around the grid and want to contribute. Yes, I appreciate that employees should be doing company work on company time. What if, in the Google mode of 20% creative time, an employee discovers something through scripting and prim twisting that benefits the company?
Daman – I I’m not mistaken, the project is on the Teen Grid. So no, <18.
On 06.03.08 Daman Tenk said:
Ah, alright. I must have missed that in the article. Thanks for the clarification. I just was a bit surprised because in my country, middle school means anyone between 12 and 14.
Really, the relevant issue is the tone. I don’t think anyone would argue with the technical aspect of what was said. By the time rendered shadows are ready for prime-time, even *I’ll* be on something newer than the 5500 FX I’m on now, and, let’s face it: do you really want your older card to be doing MORE work and being SLOWER? Second Life is slow enough as-is, usually. It’s the tone with which it was said.
It doesn’t matter what sort of avatar you have, everyone interested can submit builds to the Birthday Celebration.
If any submissions aren’t accepted it’ll be because they are too “adult” in nature, not because of the looks of the avatar.
As someone involved in the original brainstorming about adding to the celebration, I assure you that we’re trying to make it more fun and valuable for everyone, full stop.
Thanks,
– Katt Linden
On 06.03.08 TomasG said:
I don’t think that they have clarifies anything.
First the word was kids couldn’t participate.
Then that was “clarified” to mean they could attend but any submissions would be rejected,
Then that was further “clarified” to mean that kids could submit builds, but it couldn’t refer to the kids community in anyway.
Now, the “clarification” is anyone can submit a build as long as it’s PG. Which is all well and good, but the re-wording doesn’t change anything. Just the same thing only worded differently to make it more palatable and try to stem the controversy.
Sorry I don’t buy it.
Tomas
On 06.03.08 Dusan said:
I appreciate the clarification Katt…and it’s nice to see a Linden contribute outside of the LL blog! That means a lot, and the outreach is a really wonderful sign of listening and attempting to clarify, to bring some light to what became a very murky situation.
I’m afraid the comment Tomas made, and perhaps my own slant – is that while it’s good that you’ve clarified, and good that you’re reiterating your desire for the full participation of the community, there’s some skepticism which was probably avoidable. For the sake of moving forward however, I really do accept your assurance, Katt.
I also understand that you do reserve the right to review the applications before you accept them – but the skepticism will be confirmed if there isn’t a pretty valid reason for excluding someone.
I also think that the ’split’ between the two types of representations of the community isn’t such a bad idea either. The Grid is meant to embrace everyone – the power of a virtual world isn’t contained to immersionists or augmentationists it’s a full range, a spectrum – whoever can make something of the tools should be welcome to. However, while this is articulated more globally, I think sometimes mixed signals are sent to the community.
Katt – please stop by more often…or if not here, elsewhere…it really is a different level of engagement than what is often perceived as the “blog and hide” approach that’s sometimes taken on the main site.
OK…now having said all THAT….proof in the pudding and so on…let the celebration preparations begin, wherever you plan to hold them, whether at the official event, your own, or on OpenSim
On 06.03.08 Dusan said:
I agree Ky….and while Grace does a persuasive job talking about coding culture, I actually think if the overall culture of the Lab was a little more sensitive to the community I would have seen this as a sad, stressy moment for some poor coder rather than a marker of a deeper corporate tone.
My original post was never about the chip set discussion. It was about tone, community relations, and pointed out the sarcasm, mocking, and arrogance. Sure, these are all common in coder culture, but as other more “code-y” people have pointed out, it goes hand in hand with a wider disenchantment with their approach to community building, whether on SLDev or elsewhere.
While Grace is right – coders can be cowboys, and it’s admirable of her to point that out, the more I’ve thought about it and read the commentary (especially over on the forums) the more I think that her initial call of “bullshit” should be reconsidered.
On 06.04.08 Daniel Regenbogen said:
It seems the reaction of Kids5B will be to proceed with our project and apply with it for the official celebrations. We would set up an info point, maybe with a 3d sculpty model of our SIMs and with staff introducing it. And a TP to our SIMs (where we would invite LL to have a promo place and a TP back to the official SL5B SIMs).
On behalf of many kid avatars, I’d like to thank all who supported us during these chaotic days. It was extremely encouraging to see that we are not alone in this.
[...] Linden Lab® will allow builds in the names of the PG kids groups such as SLC and BSSL. This comment by Katt Linden on Dusan Writer’s Metaverse’s blog post Linden Regroups and the Kids Are In. On [...]
[...] recently talked about the Sacred Cows of Second Life and whether they needed some debunking. One of them was the [...]
On 06.06.08 Patchouli Woollahra said:
I would like to clarify certain aspects of the rules before I participate:
“There are no rules for what should or should not be included in the viewer. However, nothing should be added that is not possible with the current viewer”
- This criteria severely limits what is possible in terms of UI redesign.
A better rule might be “Nothing should be added that is not properly doable without involving changes to the SL servers or any major hardware changes client-side.” A good client viewer in SL is, after all, little more than a glorified presentation layer hooked to a communications stack. Also: LL would be less likely to welcome a proposed change to both viewer and server unless there was reason to expect that the benefits of doing so outweighed the impact of doing so.
On 06.06.08 Patchouli Woollahra said:
Would that rule be closer to the spirit of what you originally intended, Dusan?
On 06.06.08 Dusan said:
Yes Patchouli it is the spirit of what was originally intended, and I had that comment separately via e-mail as well. It was my definitely my intention that what we’re trying to avoid are designs that would require server-side changes but that the current viewer is not the baseline for what the designs should “do”.
So: “Nothing should be added that would require changes to the SL servers or major changes to the current client-side hardware specifications.”
Thanks Patchouli and others who clarified this for me – it was certainly the intent not to limit the imagination! We’re trying to avoid, however, needing Linden to rewrite the server code – they have enough on their plates trying to kick the asset server into shape.
(I wouldn’t limit comment in accompanying notes, by the way, along the lines of “This design would be scalable IF the Lindens were to (fill in blank)”)
Dusan, while I share your excitement for the idea of flash based virtual worlds … and 3D spaces you can embed into web pages … Cathay Pacific’s cabin tour is a good example why this idea has to be applied with a lot of care.
The performance is pure horror on my 2 yr old Windows system (which runs SL perfectly). Movements are erratic and you have to concentrate heavily on what the screen does, when you move the mouse. There is no avatar with which to identify myself. There was not even a second where I “felt inside” the plane.
This might be technologically “cool”, but I don’t see much sense in it. Actually I expect that an aging technology like Quicktime3D or something similar would convey a much better impression of the actual looks within a Cathay Pacific plane.
Maybe it will get better with Flash 10 and GPU support. Lets hope for that …
On 06.06.08 Dusan said:
Markus – Good points, although I don’t entirely mean to use this as an example of a ‘virtual world’ but rather the 3D Internet – and sure, subtle difference, but I think there are different facets of the “Metaverse” – avatars, 3D worlds (or micro worlds), 3D visualization, etc. Certainly Papervision isn’t ready for prime time when it comes to giving an experience of presence…in fact, as you point out, I’m not entirely sure it’s ready for prime time for certain visualizations because many of the apps you see using the platform could just as easily be done with clever use of Flash and, as you say, QuickTime or maybe Virtools (problem being the plug-in).
Flash 10 will unleash a whole new generation of approaches, there’s no question. What’s important about Papervision is its demonstration of ‘3D visualization’ without a client, ubiquity, etc. However, it’s just one thread in a much wider ecology of 3D apps and approaches.
On 06.06.08 Eris said:
So, with a certain inevitability, everything’s soon to be fair game?
Some day soon just take any inventory item from SL’s main grid into OpenSim, which has no permissions system, and make it your own – then take it back into SL for fun and profit?
If/when that becomes possible doesn’t it open up yet another can of IP worms? If Linden’s T&C’s honour the creators IP but also allow Linden to make use of any inworld item, then don’t Linden seem to claim some kind of ownership of every Inventory item? Wouldn’t moving inventory from Linden’s grid to another automatically be classed as content theft or piracy? Would Linden take action or ignore it?
Interesting, but it sounds like quite an unfair game to me…
On 06.06.08 Dusan said:
Well…yeah….that’s the worry right? It’s like those pipelines I’ve pointed out before where you can “port” your builds in SL onto other platforms. Supposedly, you can only do this with items you own, but really, a good work-up of 3D Print Screen or OGLE will have you covered eventually.
However, I’m not entirely sure that’s what Zha means in the post:
“We’re all Ruth, because we’re not yet syncing the agents with openSim inventory yet. That’s just a small matter of programming… (Well, that’s what we programmers always say.) We have no inventory, and we’re stuck on the single region. But.. It’s a very nice first step.”
It might be more along the IBM model – what is made behind the firewall, stays behind the firewall. (Hmm…sounds like a slogan for Las Vegas, who knows WHAT is going on over on those IBM sims anyways – they’re all MAD CRAZY I tell you!)
But, the idea of at least being able to move your avatar effortlessly around even if they leave their inventory behind but “resynch” to the inventory on the other grid is promising. Universally portable avatars with locked off inventory – I guess that’s the dream, but sure, Eris, also think it’s a few code lines away from “and bring your inventory too”.
On 06.06.08 Eris said:
I have some doubts about the idea of a universal grid which we (as avatars) traverse effortlessly – and it’s not just the technical challenge it presents.
It’s touted as a logical next step, and technically maybe it is, but my question would be what’s in it for the companies that would be footing the (considerable) bills? Why would they buy their own branded virtual world if all its content can walk out the virtual doors and onto someone else’s grid? On the other hand what’s the point of another ‘user-created’ grid when SL already does that and all the content is portable and headed your way for free anyway?
To be a significant player you’d have to offer something different or better but portable content means you can do neither because whatever exists on one grid can move onto another. I guess you could compete by offering better build tools but then you’re competing against the plethora of existing 3D app’s – assuming importing external content gets easier. That leaves one last option – compete by being cheaper. Cheaper than Open Source? Good luck with that…
A universal grid is a nice developer’s dream, but, at the moment, I can’t see who’s going to pay for it – or why anyone would?
On 06.06.08 Dusan said:
Yeah….I’m with you. The next breakthrough isn’t a world that’s an incremental improvement, or open source, it’s something a lot deeper than that.
This could help explain why the Lindens got into the land development business with Bay City…they have to present a compelling reason for the continued viability of the Second Life main grid…especially as OpenSim grids are so darned cheap.
Eris,
if you are concerned about grids, permission systems and IP issues, you simply should attend AWG meetings and discussions and read previous transcripts. I’d say that the issues you’re talking about are being addressed. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Architecture_Working_Group
On 06.08.08 Eris said:
Yup Dusan, and whatever the next seismic shift is, it’s almost certainly going to be something we haven’t thought of yet – which is the fun of it!
Yup Morris, I think you’re probably right – plus there are rumours that Linden want to start zoning SL. Sounds like a good idea as long as they don’t try to retrofit zoning onto existing mainland – there should always be unrestricted areas too, that’s another part of the fun.
Personally, I’d love to see a mainland continent made up from high spec’ sims. Instead of having 4 sims per CPU like OpenSpaces, couldn’t we flip that and have 1 sim per 4 CPU’s, would that work? So we could have regions capable of hosting say 100+ avatars without collapse. Then make that continent a zone for clubs, music venues, galleries or shopping – a sort-of Manhattan for Second Life! Imagine how much they would get for those parcels!
Thnx for the link Opensource, it’s certainly a fascinating area. Personally, I think I’ve become reconciled to the fact that future virtual worlds won’t have decent IP protection, I’ve heard too many dev’s saying it’s too difficult (uhu…) and that there are laws to deal with that kind of thing. Of course laws tend to work best in areas where there’s enough money to pay lawyers, so that pretty much rules out your average micro-economy.
The thing which does keep occurring to me is…imagine if Microsoft or Apple owned the working(ish) fundamentals of a new virtual world platform – you think their first reaction would be to open source it?
I’m not suggesting that corporate greed is the answer for virtual worlds but Linden sometimes seem to be headed down an equally myopic but opposite route with some kind of happy-clappy Googlicious Californian Tao ideology blinding them to the possibilities, both commercial and philanthropic, they actually have.
[...] announcement that Google Earth would be moving to a browser seemed to elicit collective silence from the virtual world industry – while last September, [...]
[...] be moving to a browser seemed to elicit collective silence from the virtual world industry – while last September, everyone was foaming with anticipation about Google secretly planning a Virtual Google that would [...]
[...] through a serious, um, serious gaming initiative, and their partnerships with 3DVIA, their purchase of Caligari, and the previews of Photosynth put them in the middle of the battle for 3D visualization and by [...]
[...] leemos en dusan writer’s metaverse ya es posible realizar teleports entre Open Sim y Second [...]
On 06.09.08 Eris said:
OK, Mr Clever Mouth, it’s the Naughty-Step for you i think…
On 06.09.08 Yemi said:
From what i have read so far the SL iphone thing seems interesting as i am searching for the complexity of communication in systems integration project. i would be glad if anyone can throw more light on this snd what it stands for.
thanks,
Yemi
Thanks for doing this contest, Dusan You’re right, we shouldn’t wait for Linden Lab to do what we need them to do, when we were given the tools to do it on our own!…
But on the other hand, having Linden Lab officially endorse such an initiative (or at least promote it!) wouldn’t hurt, either It’s in their best interest anyway…
Hmmm … it might not be illegal in most jurisdictions (avatars usually do no enjoy the same rights and privacy protection, that the humans behind them do enjoy), the collection of such data isn’t exactly good business practice especially, if you do not announce it to your visitors.
Additionally, for most purposes easily imaginable to me, it is not necessary to collect this kind of data. It might be desirable to recognize the fact, that the same avatar visits your location again and again. Gathering data about the age distribution or verified status of visitors is certainly interesting information, too. But all of this information can be provided by using anonymous profiles, too, without invading resident’s privacy.
Many thanks Gwyn, and great point. I won’t speak on behalf of the Lab but two things: one, I did let them know through channels that Hamlet Au suggested. But second, I was pleasantly surprised that someone in the usability group contacted me without being aware of my message, and I’ve had nothing but positive feedback from the Lindens.
Again, I won’t speak on their behalf but I think they’ll be very supportive – they’re as keen and excited to see what residents come up with as I am!
Markus – I’m not so sure on that interpretation of the law. While it’s still early days I think there’s sufficient legal grounds to consider data related to an avatar equivalent to data related to a person. Just as collecting e-mail addresses which may not confer a connection to personally identifiable information is, on its own, personally identifiable, so too it could be argued that avatars are personally identifiable proxies for identity, regardless of the anonymity conferred by the platform. But sure…early days.
Now, in all fairness to Clever Zebra, they are running an open source business ‘aggregation’ service. Their model is that they give items for free – and they’re pretty significant items (and while very corporate looking and so on, their auditoriums and galleria are really well executed). By giving them for free, they’re hoping to be able to offer services. Free includes events, seminars, and educational activities.
So, I see it as a fair trade-off: if you’d like items at no charge, or if you’d like to attend no cost exhibitions, in return you allow them to collect information on your presence and they earn the right to contact you to discuss collateral services. What’s missing from the equation, however, is the ability to opt-in or be notified.
And instead of picking on Clever Zebra, I should note that the service they were using was Mechanized Life, which does not track exclusively for Clever Zebra. I have no idea what their install base is but I’m fairly sure that CZ isn’t the only sim on the grid capturing this kind of information.
So the question is, should avatar monitoring devices be allowed? Should there be an opt-in or notification policy? Does any of this break the TOS? Do avatars have less rights to privacy and surveillance? Or, as has been argued elsewhere on this blog, is surveillance just the “way it is” and we should learn to live with it?
Sorry, Dusan, I did not want to imply, that there are clear laws denying “avatars” any privacy. It is just shaky ground and there have not been any final court decisions or explicit laws covering this issue.
And I certainly did not want to attack Clever Zebra.
All I wanted to say is basically:
(1) I consider it good business practice to inform visitors, when I collect “personal” data about them that allows me to track them down individually.
(2) There are better ways to collect usage data for an installation which works anonymously. Some of the more innovative advertising networks on the web work that way. It is not rocket science. No one needs to store my name or IP address to identify “uniques” for his website (or island in SL) example – not even my avatars name.
Absolutely Markus – and sorry if I sounded defensive. I really did take your comments in the spirit they were intended – and it’s a provocative question about avatar “rights”.
I’d be curious if Mechanized Life has any thoughts on this. I should check to see if they have a posted privacy policy.
[...] to everyone who’s expressed an interest in my Second Life user interface design contest. It’s really exciting to know that a few people are engaged in thinking about solutions to [...]
On 06.10.08 Luke Poplin said:
Hmmm…it’s probably Interface for the Second Life(R) World Contest.
Maybe we can have a contest for the name of the contest!
Hi – That is what we are focused on for the conference on virtual worlds and MMOs in London at the Convention 9-10th July. Bruce Joy is joining us as is Sun and a number of other platform developers and some key MMO games developers.There is a separate serious games conf and web 2.0 Take a look at http://www.viswebconvention.com
Cheers, Martine
p.s early bird ends 15th June
[...] the user interface is still daunting (but private initiatives like the one sponsored by Dusan Writer might soon create an easy-to-use interface). And of course, grid stability continues to plague us, [...]
Perhaps it is my whim that my avatar is an Imp, a mythical creature that appears childlike, yet is ancient beyond the ken of the dim lights in the weak, putrid head-meat of slack-jawed yokels that follow the likes of Mark Kirk’s attention whoring.
Second Life is a playground of imagination for adults. Condemning the imaginations of people is more heinous than burning libraries with the books, authors, and readers still inside.
On 06.11.08 Kyzaadrao said:
Without looking up the licensing, I believe the Linden Labs code the RealXtend viewer is based on “does” require them to release the code as GPL in the distribution itself or a clear way to get at that current source code.
This is very cool. I was hoping that LL would create an SLLite version for non-builders for a while, but looks like this idea was never popular there. Hopefully, this approach will encourage one to emerge. I think the SLLite version should be a bit more than hiding advanced menu items obviously. Good luck!
Wow Pais! Putrid head-meat. Haha sorry, I know it was said with the appropriate level of disgust and passion, but I still got a nice chuckle from your very vivid word choices.
Seriously, though, you’re dead on. Our avatars are knowledge. Our avatars are expression. I don’t understand the narrow-minded amongst the community who would call them creepy, dangerous or want to purge the grid of them – as you point out, no different than supporting book burning. What an apt parallel.
[...] debate about the integration of realXtend code in OpenSim sparked off by Justin Clark-Casey and Dusan Writer indicates. But another good friend – an astute virtual world developer/evangelist, Peter Quirk, [...]
Thanks for the review of some of the symposium’s main sentiments. So why isn’t anyone talking about Activeworlds, I wonder? Or are they? I haven’t looked at Wonderland yet, but we’re not in a position to build something from scratch, so I tend to not pay much attention to those projects yet.
I’m extremely curious to see what the future holds for SL as more and more folks discontinue their premium accounts and head to the virtual frontier.
Without a doubt, the NPIRL folks get Second Life; so do other artistic folk like Chouchou, who create, not recreate, with the environment. It’s the difference between an expressive and an additive approach to a medium. But you can’t be expressive without basic skills and this is where I think many educators miss something important. These basic skills consist of a configuration of 3D modeling, scripting, some kind of design, art, architecture, etc; they’re not a skill set many instructors or college students have or necessarily need or want to have.
Where am I going with this? Give a kid drum sticks and he’ll bang on everything. Is he a drummer? Not in my book. Coloring books, paint by numbers, piano lessons, art class don’t trump creativity, they make it a whole lot more meaningful. Where there weren’t recreations of status quo kinds of pedagogies, there were attempts to posit that creative expression alone was a valid use of SL.
This isn’t one rainy day after school in 3rd grade.
Throwing learners in at the deep end is bound to produce casualties. We’ve seen it; students reporting frustrating experiences and wondering what building an X has to do with learning Y. The other casualty I notice is a sense of “entitled creativity” in our culture, one that feeds off of a rather dumbed down and commodified sensibility of artistic expression. If we’re going to involve students in expressive technologies, then we do them a disservice to not enable them to use them as such.
Suzanne – Really wonderful points. And while I agree with you that there needs to be the proper respect for the learning curve required of students, I’m not sure that the lessons to be drawn from Chouchou (I almost mentioned Chouchou, we’re on the same wavelength in who has talent!) and others are entirely related to how the medium can be used for expression.
A few things I’d love to see happen in SL:
- An artistic commons, a group of residents who would be willing to team up with educators, maybe for free and the fame, maybe for a few Lindens – most schools can’t afford a lot, but you’d have I think a fairly deep source of creative talent willing to help improve the experience of SL.
- Supplement that with a crowdsourcing Web site for build and tools. A teacher wants to demo a particular concept, crowdsource the demo.
- Establish a best practices databank that not only takes the learnings from teachers, but from others as well. You could have one Linden (or a private company or individual, whatever) whose job is to look at work in world and help translate it to education methodologies. So, for example, you might look at the work that Keystone is doing with Studio Wikitecture, and create an “education packet” out of it for teachers, with decent documentation, instructions on modifying, etc.
- Develop a script library, especially around things like physics, procedural objects, and games. Think of the number of in-world games, treasure hunts, etc. – many of these scripts and objects could be adopted easily for student activities. But it’s tough to track them down, and it’s tougher still to know how to adapt them.
Much like Clever Zebra is trying to do for corporate builds, the idea of a ‘commons’ for learning objects, scripts, and lessons learned from the best artists and scripters would go a long way, I think. It’s not to say that these resources aren’t available within the NMC or through the SLEd lists and elsewhere, but it would go a long way to create an “NPIRL” for education don’t you think?
Create objects and learning interactions with a bit of awe to them, make it so that teachers and students don’t need to learn to build to take advantage of all the talent, objects and scripts that already exist – and if you really want it to sing, integrate it with the work the SLoodle folks were doing.
Hmmm.
I have a spare sim or two. Maybe I should just start it myself. Haha.
Dusan, I do think there may be some of the “been there and done that” among the most techie of educators. They were the early adopters and now are looking for new challenges. But as you said, this is just my impression from overhearing conversations and some presentations.
The shape that education should take in SL is hotly contested. This is even more true in RL education where active learning and social learning paradigms go head to head with more traditional philosophies. I agree with you that it’s important to understand and explore SL and not camp within a locked down space. I’ve been going to sims and events and meeting a wide spectrum of fascinating residents for several months. I think we (a very small cadre at my university) are about to embark on a small experiment. I am very much in the “need for reform” camp of science educators, and I have come to view SL as a place for immersive and transformative experiences and relationship for faculty and teachers rather than for students. Interacting collaborating with educators from around the world can broaden perspectives and open minds–at least that’s the experiment I’d like to try.
I wonder if you have met the organizers of the SLCC–educators all, and three of the most creative thinkers about education in SL that you will find. I expect that one or more of them are at the NMC Conference and maybe presenting. Ann Enigma/Hilary Mason is a long-time resident of SL, and I greatly admire her work.
I also agree that more conversations and interactions among educators and other creative residents is well worth facilitating. The constructivist philosophy of education focuses on student construction of their own knowledge by active participation. Rather than having builds done for them, I’d like to see an education themed and immersive sim created by collaboration among builders, educators and students. I even had what I thought was an inspired theme picked out around the time of Life 2.0. Since you seem to have a sim or two to spare, I’ll tell you about it sometime if we meet up “in world.”
I’d imagine the issue of geography refers to the complexity added to legal situations, where the virtual world itself is devoid of any jurisdiction per se. In a case such as being an SL employee, I could easily imagine lawyers keeping themselves amused for a long while, arguing over what degrees of jurisdiction apply, based on the location of SL’s incorporation, the employer’s location, and that of the employee, all of which might conceivably be on different continents.
One might similarly consider land ownership, governed by laws all around the world, but absolutely free of any restrictions or protections in SL, leading to the manifold abuses witnessed routinely, such as tenants being immediately tossed off their plots, despite being fully paid up, when a new sim owner comes onto the scene. Thankfully, the consequences of SL homelessness are vastly easier to deal with than in RL.
I like the article and i recognize a lot of your sentiments. We’ve done some work for dutch universities and schools but I interpreted them not as a ‘done that’ – I’ve read it as a ‘not yet’. I see yet again, the educational expectations are outrunning technological adoption which is a gap (the chasm) that is going to have to be bridged on both sides by developer developer and consumer.
Universities are notoriously bad at this. Through the Erasmus university in Rotterdam I now what an advantage they have when it comes to developing, but what a handicap they have in communicating their findings. N.D.A’s, ego’s (don’t underestimate this factor in being a bottleneck towards adoption – intellectual status often outweighs commercial gain) and financial investments/lobbies really restrict placing their findings in the end-users hands (which obviously is a requirement for successful application). Something marketing is notoriously good at but THEY seem to be in the ‘been there done that’ stage after Second Lifes visibility (mistaking the market for the medium).
So what will it take to ‘cross the chasm’? To me, the answer is in http://youtube.com/watch?v=nK7TQVFSA1Y (1:20 – 2:00). A Steve or Bill recognizing the problem this technology would solve for a specific market, and build it. Identify, develop, market.
- Identify the problem. What is holding business/education or critical mass in consumers back, why is this not solving a problem for them?
- Develop the technology into something that will address these problems
Chimera – many thanks for the reply. I’d love to meet in world.
I do want to make sure I make clear that although I used a fairly wide brush, I also recognize some of the incredible work that’s been done and indeed will be done in Second Life. Whether the work of someone like Tom Boellstorf studying Second Life, or the work of the folks at Princeton facilitating the exploration of art, or the use of simulation to train nurses (have to find the post, but I blogged it previously).
I’m glad however with your take on that “sentiment in the air” that the early adopters are perhaps opening new horizons. I think that a great deal of SL’s potential has been untapped. These are partly platform issues, such as stability, the inability yet to embed HTML, or the need to get Mono up and running (which will make a big difference to the ability to simulate, I think) and partly the lack of a coherent way to organize information.
And while I’m holding a “newbie UI” contest, I’m also of the belief that the tools actually need to become MORE complex in order to allow for the increasingly detailed requirements of people such as yourself. For example, I’d love to see a really detailed physics panel, or a robust particle system. Sure, you can get some great HUDS that do these things, but maybe they should be built into the system.
With these types of tools, students really could use SL for the types of things that Diana shared in her keynote, perhaps – I wonder, for example, whether something like he mass collaborative nanohub could be replicated for smaller groups in SL.
And you’re on – let’s meet, I’d love to continue the conversation.
@Digado – Thanks for the video, always amazing to extrapolate what Steve Jobs has done to the current status of SL – but what’s the equivalent of his statement, referring to Xerox that “basically they were copier-heads” when it comes to Second Life?
I wonder as well, since I’m on this riff, whether Steve’s DEPARTURE from Apple wasn’t as critical to their success today as both the early work they did and the work they’re doing today. The parallels are there – I don’t think anyone would deny that Philip is a visionary. Maybe in pulling back he’ll get some perspective, but my parallel fear is that M Linden goes too far along the linear SWOT analysis approach to strategy and loses track of those moments of awe which maybe kept us in SL in the first place – we need moments of awe, not just marketing and feature/benefit decisions.
I’ve bumped my head up more than once, having worked with universities for 14 years, against the egos and so on. But egos can be good. So can the need for building a reputation. So long as they’re backed by passion and intelligence who cares.
I sort of feel that open source and the commons is a red herring but I may be wrong and I’m loathe to jump into the debate, I’m ill informed about enough things as it is.
So, we have Chimera to help Digado – you in on the develop and market part?
On 06.14.08 Eris said:
You read my mind again, Dusan, been thinking about this in relation to a UI for SL. There is no “inherent contradiction”, you are the perfect, resolved SL resident. Sometimes you immerse, sometimes you augment, sometimes neither, sometimes both.
They were always superficial and pretentious descriptions anyway, made up by people who think that an ability to label and categorise implies some kind of insight. At best they describe a (usually transitory) mode of involvement – but they’ve NEVER described a type of person and we should publicly ridicule anyone who thinks they do!
“referring to Xerox that “basically they were copier-heads” when it comes to Second Life?”
I see it everywhere really. The most visible early adopters within Second Life are in the tech market, the community developers are tech minded, Linden Labs is a technology company (hence their poor community/marketing management). Every time i see their public blog being updated by nothing but issues and problems solved I think ‘do they ever consider the message they are sending out with that nonsense?’. The open source development, the viewer development, realXtend technologies, the decentralization of Open Sim, the wikis, the JIRA, the office hours and most of the VW blogs- All these developments are still concerned with HOW – which is the ‘copier-head approach’ (or people with a passion for technology).
In actually communicating the advantages/application of virtual worlds beyond the developers and early adopters, the WHY question is the more relevant. It identifies a problem, gives direction to development, addresses a niche that could truly find a use inside the application and create a buzz based on achieved accomplishments rather than expectations (overly simplified, but a proven strategy and well documented in ‘Crossing the Chasm’). I haven’t seen that many solid attempts to see the WHY being answered yet, certainly not within the Second Life development.
Whether Steves departure was actually good or not – i don’t think there is a way to really tell. Steve will say it wasn’t (in fact, he has on many occasions) but perhaps he never would have invented the iMac if it wasn’t for him getting back to a company in need. I hope M will be able to focus on the WHY more than Philip could, but that would mean losing the ‘everything o everybody’ approach, which i can’t see SL doing anytime soon. (hence, as indicated in your original article the industry focus on companies that have managed to develop towards a solution such as Croquet, Wonderland, ActiveWorlds and hopefully Ogoglio)
[...] argued eloquently about needing more WHY and less HOW when it comes to Second Life in a running thread from my attendance at the NMC conference. His argument is [...]
Spot on! I agree too. But I think that labeling sometimes happen naturally, boundaries between labels are always fuzzy. Some folks might find it useful as pointers may be to add some focus in a discourse. All categories are constructs, that is a given. But not all categories are equally useful.
R
Yes I did read this far
I got the same experience, more or less. Meaning: I became less tolerant for long articles and texts which have not that much added value (to use a terrible expression). I get more selective.
It is not only a consequence of blogging, I think, but of the proliferation of electronic networks.
It is part of my job to study those networks and I am also personally passionated about this phenomenon, but it is hard to monitor facebook, myspace, twitter, friendfeed, second life, pownce, the well etc. while listening and sharing on last.fm, del.icio.us and trying to write blogposts and managing some wikis.
It imposes constantly hard choices. The danger is of course that one feels constantly under pressure to do even more, it seems it is never enough.
I am glad to be able to let it all go while sailing… on Second Life.
On 06.15.08 Eris said:
This is horribly familiar to me too, I always put it down to age, now I wonder…
Awww…..I love the image of sailing in Second Life as the respite from the madness of our electronic world.
Now, I really need to post about my new Kindle, which although is a book reader, also ends up creating this sort of tendency to scan and skim. I wonder if it’s because the text is electronic, the reader is a certain size (blog-post length I’d call it), or whether I just like clicking the button to turn the page.
Now….a Kindle on a sail boat is about as an ideal image of which I can think.
[...] of the news pieces focuses on a demonstration of the Emotiv headset, which we’ve written about before. The piece describes a demonstration at the 2008 Game Developers Conference of a future that is [...]
[...] all the talk of usability, orientation, and coming virtual world winters, the next phase of virtual world growth might not come from the design of the worlds, but rather [...]
Good ideas Dusan. It’s kind of like that in WoW. The problem with learning these things in Orientation is all the distractions–moving in the environment, other avatars, lots of things. I suppose you could look at it with a Cognitive Load framework–we can only effectively process so much at once. SL Orientation is definitely into the Cognitive Overload zone. hehe
[...] I’ve posted on this before: orientation is a sacred cow that should be killed, and the model that Spore’s using is a game changer. Tagged: microsoft, Second Life, sony, [...]
[...] Edit June 18th: Please see an update on this contest including announcement of judges here. [...]
On 06.18.08 Seth Mandelbrot said:
How involved is Philip even anymore? Didn’t he abdicate his position or something? (Too lazy to look up the details. I don’t really follow LL politics.)
What an astute rant, dear Dusan ! I love how you combine a sharp mind and a sharp tongue.
Let me ask one thing however : if you stop to think about it, especially in the light of M Linden’s track record, does the latest spin really surprise you ? The man strikes me as a very competent marketeer, and as such, the « oops, sorry for that, there is absolutely no policy on this I can assure you » fits perfectly. It’s arguably coming a bit late for the next logical step of dealing one on one with the people voicing dissent on the SL5B issue, but the approach is sound : minimise fuss from those not directly concerned by making the right noises, and keep the real troublemakers away from the public and from each other…
All right, I might just be in an overly Machiavellian mood tonight, and besides, what do I know about the Lab’s inner workings ? But it still strikes me that, to anyone prepping SL for either corporate or mass adoption, the early adopter community is as much a liability as it is an asset, and need to be slowly dissociated from the product without openly disgruntling it. The Lab has been exceedingly clumsy and heavy handed in this simply because it lacked any kind of real management competency —and that, it seems, is what is finally changing with the advent of M.
As I said, I might be entirely wrong, but if I’m not, I guess we can expect some public faces of SL to change as today’s key personnel will have to leave the limelight in favour of much slicker types. Cassandra hath spoken
Thanks Rheta – and sure, I agree….and in some ways, I really have nothing wrong with a more professional approach to all things SL, which may include paying more attention to the latter adopters than the early ones. But that should probably be done within the context of an articulated strategy. And as much as I don’t wish anyone ill, it should probably include a changing of the guard in the PR department. I really give Katt credit for trying but a lot of these issues had Robin’s hands in them. And if you’re doing PR, don’t you think the Linden Lab site itself should have a press release a little more current than April 22nd? And have a little more competence in dealing with DMCA, the birthday and trademarks all of which she led up?
Dusan, you’re sharp as an eagle and right on target. To place the cherry on the top, I was delighted to read Rheta’s comment. Yes, this is exactly the kind of thing that “follows according to plan”. Forbid gambling, kick banks out, kick ageplayers out, now curb the mature content, and, oh, lest we forget, trademark lawsuits are around the corner, shortly followed by mandatory age validation. Yep. The future of the LL Resident relationship is as bright and shiny as an oil leak in the Atlantic.
The SL5B Drama: Crowdsourcing Fiasco Or Devious Plan?…
By now, it’s impossible that you haven’t heard the news from so many sources, including Linden Lab®’s own blog post on the subject. I would like to apologise in advance for not quoting all sources; so many people wrote from so many d….
I simply can’t chime in with your all being politically-correct here, sorry.
You claim they should have said, “We were trying to do a takedown and accidently took some stuff that we didn’t mean to take” yet that’s exactly what they DID say. I understood them to mean that. You did. What’s the fuss about? They really should be applauded for taking both a governance and DMCA action here, even if they didn’t do it perfectly, and if there are accidently removals, they seem perfectly capable of restoring them in good faith. So why all the snark?
As for the birthday, being inclusive means not forcing people to leave because it’s all Goreans snapping their chained slaves and creepy kids. And that’s a good thing. The public space needs to be kept more neutral and not hijacked by special interests. I guess I’m just not seeing the horror here if they stepped on a few toes of a few entitlement-happy freaks — big deal.
As for the “Fringe” idea — yes, such groups are on the fringe, let them stay on the fringe, I’m all for that : )
I’m sorry, but I cry “bullshit” on the idea that you could walk around topless on Yonge St. People don’t. I’m not buying it, and I used to live there and walk past there all the time.
Of course, it’s oh-so-Euro-sophisticated to bang on “backward Americans” for being “Puritanical” and not wanting breasts to be displayed. But most of the angst over child pornography in SL from RL authorities, and most press coverage of this issue came from Europe, not America.
Most of the time, artists that have to resort to showing nudes to make art are pretty much out of ideas, derivative, or exploitative. It’s hard to be original on this one — most are not.
On 06.19.08 sacha magne said:
quote :
Of course, it’s oh-so-Euro-sophisticated to bang on “backward Americans” for being “Puritanical” and not wanting breasts to be displayed. But most of the angst over child pornography in SL from RL authorities, and most press coverage of this issue came from Europe, not America.
What about the Janet Jackson breast
On 06.19.08 Adz Childs said:
Executive Management
Philip Rosedale | Founder and Chairman of the Board
Mark Kingdon | CEO
.
.
.
That was largely manufactured outrage, Sacha. Manufactured outrage by a group of politically-motivated religious extremists, and amplified by a right-wing-friendly corporate media. After all, the greatest amount of broadcast outrage was from Fox News … which is owned by Rupert Murdoch … need anything more be said?
On 06.19.08 surrealist seesaw said:
I guess someone forgot to tell Picasso, Gauguin, Bonnard, Rodin, Goya, Klimt, Bacon et al that Boticelli and Rubens had done it all before…
On 06.19.08 surrealist seesaw said:
I refer, of course to the suggestion that ‘most of the time, artists that have to resort to showing nudes to make art are pretty much out of ideas, derivative, or exploitative’. Art, literature, music are always derivative; it was ever thus, from the early ‘masters’ to the present day.
As for the way in which Lindens clarify their position, words matter. Saying something was done ‘inadvertently’ in the context in which it was written is not the same as saying ‘we made a mistake’. Many Linden Lab apologies come across as mealy-mouthed. However, I commend lauraplinden for her frankness, clarity and plain speaking on the issue – if more would follow her example, fewer residents would feel that they were being led up the garden path
[...] Second Life is a Story Box. When the birthday celebrations begin, remember that there are two going on – one which was pure crowd sourcing, and one which tried to be but then decided they’d rather be a platform instead. [...]
Dusan, ta so much for missing me, and ta also for correcting my most obvious typos (/me points discreetly at the errant « about » and mistyped « me » in the second paragraph — you got the « most obvious » hint, didn’t you ?).
Although I have found myself quoted like I was agreeing with what happens, my attitude to management competency is a rather dispassionate one (might this be owed to the fact I am a member of the evil scheming sorority of execs IRL ? nah…) ; thus, when I spoke of competency, I did not imply to pass judgement on the policy this competency is applied to. I do in fact very much dislike where all this is leading, and honestly, I preferred barely management competent older generation of Lindens because in an odd way, they guaranteed SL would not evolve beyond the niche my kind has happily filled any time soon. Watching the first tell-tale signs of that state of things changing sends quite a chill down my spine.
Anyway, seeing I’m playing Cassandra already, I’ll go out on a limb and tell you more precisely what i mean by «slicker types» taking the limelight. I’m willing to bet the next half year or so will witness a.) Robin being pulled back from all contact with both the community and the general public, and b.) the rising star of Laura P., who has shown before this she understands spin and how it applies to the idea of sheathing the fist of steel in a silken glove, if you’ll pass me the expression. As to the policy this will accompany, the fates have shrouded it in mists yet
This take on Kids5B as a metaphor for the essence of Second Life is interesting to ponder. I was lucky enough to TP to the first sim in its empty state to visit Sacha and others there as the discussions started that snowballed and created Kids5B.
Mixed in with the accomplishment of what was created by so many in a short time in the SL context is also that it was done by “kids”, who of course are not really kids, but adults who are pretending to be kids. These “kids” are frustrated by people who can’t separate imagination from reality, but seem to have claim to a moral high-ground. This intolerance, exclusion, and injustice became a powerful motivator.
Meanwhile, as one looks at all the things on the Kids5B sims, it is obvious there is a common theme of it being driven by imagination, joy, fun and a little nostalgia for the things of our childhood and youth that need not be relegated to our pasts but can manifest in this virtual, shared experience.
On 06.20.08 Anonymus-Not said:
Unfortunately, singularity will never happen. What will come instead is war and famine.
The image of a glittering future will quickly turn into dark and scary everydays, we are living this even today. Resources are melting away, while they’re suggesting that inflation is low, around a few percent, the actual inflation of food is extreme.
(Last year in an EU country, flour went up by nearly 60 pct., cooking oil by more than 40, etc.)
The world economy is starting to collapse in the wake of the yellow and the gypsy countries (China and India.) Have you realized how much resource it takes to feed these guys at only 1/2 level of an average “western” culture?
“Meanwhile” all that you can hear about SL5B is some sick souls complaining about their out-ruling of the event. Like anyone cares. And they shouldn’t show together with adults.
What if I kicked one of them into the air knowing he was an adult… what would others think of me who’s beating up “kids”? Or of SL? It’s ok if they play whatever together, but don’t merge with adult avatars, faking they are kids.
Furries are ok, I can kick them into the air and with a bit of misfortune they kick me into the air instead. Fair trade.
And you are not the community. You are just bloggers and their fanboys/-girls. Oh. And the creative cream has contractors, the crop builds for free or for free marketing.
On 06.20.08 Adz Childs said:
Thats fine if you found a group of like-minded people who take turns kicking each other through the sky without anyone getting upset about it. Good for you. Just don’t merge with the rest of us.
On 06.21.08 TomasG said:
About 2 years ago, a couple of people adults) decided to grief some kids and kick them into the air. I won’t go into the gory details of the conflict, but needless to say it wasn’t the kids that got kicked into the air and it wasn’t the kids who were perma-banned. The incident gave rise to the saying:
Ah, Dusan… A slap on my wrist for not visiting your site more often; always insightful.
I’d like to come to the defense of good marketing and public relations. Per Rheta’s “The man strikes me as a very competent marketeer, and as such, the « oops, sorry for that, there is absolutely no policy on this I can assure you » fits perfectly,” I disagree.
One of the first things you learn in crisis communications is to acknowledge that there is a problem. You respond IMMEDIATELY, empathetically, and then explain that you are going to take action. You then go on to delineate how you are going to take action and you insert deadlines that make you accountable. This is how you begin to reinstate trust, the most valuable commodity of all when it comes to your audience.
M Linden’s career demonstrates – beyond a shadow of a doubt, and with a proven track record – that he is able to do that and that he has done so for his clients over the years.
Also, note that he is just getting his feet wet with an organization that is extremely talented and forward thinking, but also very very ill in one important area: public relations, community relations and marketing in general.
I fully expect – and will be sorely disappointed if this isn’t so – that M Linden will begin to assert himself as the company’s CEO by: 1) Firing the unbelievably incompetent Catherine Linden and 2) firing Lewis PR.
Together, these two have caused more damage to Linden Lab than all the technical issues combined.
[...] a nursing HUD (Second Life equivalent to a widget) was demonstrated at the Games for Health Conference in [...]
On 06.23.08 Corcosman Voom said:
I took a quick walk through the kids’ sims a couple of days ago. Really delightful, good overall design that wanders about in curves rather than a rectangular grid. And, of course, it is designed for play. That is what is so appealing about everyone I have ever met that has a child AV, they like to play. And they are generally very knowledgeable and self confident.
[...] written about Tom’s book previously, and there were engaging discussions on Savage Minds that are worth checking out for both an [...]
On 06.24.08 Eris said:
So SL or other virtual worlds are full of people that are a bit sick of their real lives? Even if this obnoxious judgemental crap was true – so what?
People find plenty of escape-routes from the daily grind or an unhappy homelife – often involving recreational drugs, excessive alcohol or meaningless (dangerous) sex and, more than likely, some suicidal combination of all three. Is SL really worse for you than that or more deserving of ridicule?
To spend your off-time socialising and/or creating as part of an international virtual community doesn’t seem like such a bad escape to me. I’d worry more if I was one of the people that feel the need to pass judgement on others and then sneer at them – that’s completely pathetic.
Ah, The Palace….those were the days…even 2D lagged then…
[...] – light versions, Flash versions, and phone versions – the next level of innovation will come as much from the devices used to access them as the worlds [...]
This doesn’t perfectly match your expectations right now, this is not Microsoft Surface, but we’re preparing something that could answer your very last question
On 06.25.08 Chimera Cosmos said:
I’m assuming Dusan was being ironic in the last paragraph. Either Eris didn’t get THAT, or Eris is being ironic too and I didn’t get it. Isn’t life complicated? hehe
[...] so it makes you wonder whether this stuff is as easy as people wish it were), predictions of a virtual world winter should be tempered by uptake of newer approaches to technology – stuff that I can’t really [...]
[...] of a book by Tom Boellstorff’s ‘Coming of Age in Second Life’, the when I saw the second one I followed links that lead me to the first chapter [...]
On 06.25.08 Eris said:
Sims capable of carrying more than 40 av’s at a time would certainly be a blessing to SL – it would make clubs and gigs actually work – but is the concurrency plateaux really only due to these (or other) technical reasons?
My guess is still (yup, i’ve ranted on about this before!) that the current levels represent the number of people who want to be a part of BUILDING Second Life at the moment and not the total number that might ultimately want to use it. Philip Linden said t’other day we are “a community now of a quarter of a million people or so a day using Second Life” – a quarter of a million people a day (mostly) trying to make this thing work, we should also remember to give ourselves some credit for that!
My question would always be – who are we trying to make it work FOR? Where is the audience for our show? The visitors to our virtual places? It’s not enough to do this stuff just for ourselves – all of us wandering around admiring each other’s work in some virtual closed-circuit? We need to open the doors and make VISITORS welcome and stop assuming everyone will come wanting to be a builder.
Relating this to the new-user experience, one thing that occurred to me a few days ago – why not ’stream’ new users through an induction process that’s much more themed to their type of interest in SL? For example, a new user could be asked what area of SL interests them most, do they want to be a virtual architect, a fashion designer, a party-girl or whatever.
Choose builder/architect and your first default avatar gets automatically dressed in coveralls with a tool-belt and steel-toe-caps – or looks like Leonard da Vinci, paintbrush behind your ear, a set of callipers in your hands – whatever, there should still be choices. Then you’re led thru a beginners course in building SL-style. You could be offered to attend one of the building classes, given a freebie box of builders goodies and a brace of landmarks to relevant helpful sites in SL.
A social user could get a ‘club-kid’ avatar, be shown how IM’s work, how to befriend other users (and then mute them!), how to use the Events calendar, how to find groups you might like to join, a set of noob-friendly party landmarks..
A fashion designer would get a ‘fashionista’ or supermodel avatar and could be shown how the whole Appearance system works, how flat textures map onto your avatar to form garments, how clothing layers work, be given the fashion template files etc… You get the idea i’m sure.
Of course nothing would be denied to any user – it would just mean the induction process would teach you things you actually want to know with the intention of getting people to their kind of Second Life sooner rather than later. Flatten the learning curve a little? Make any sense?
On 06.25.08 Eris said:
Actually my comment would make more sense in the entry where you’re actually discussing avatar creation, huh?
I have seen patterns of popular sims that rotate between EU and US visitors based on the diurnal patterns – so it could make sense that a given sim could be hosted at an area where most users are active during a given time of the 24 hour day.
Ohhhh – very nice Eris. I think the user experience group at the Lab is working on a similar approach – sort of a tour HUD idea for newbies, based on themes – build, shop, dance, etc. What I love about your idea is how you actually connect it to the type of avatar or “character” you’re given. I probably would have liked that myself – a “role” to have – of course, get rid of it once you really understand what’s going on, but it’s a way to enter a comfort zone quickly.
I’m not actually knocking SL, but I am wondering if it’s useful to think on a much bigger scale. I agree on new users, the interface, the tools – all stuff I’ve written about, but I suppose this is my attempt to broaden the horizon, or widen the world…something like that. Take the issue of servers in Australia – it’s something they want, Linden said it was coming, and it hasn’t happened. But what would happen if we truly thought of the SL technology as needing to be massive, massively parallel, and support massive numbers of users? Maybe the applications and users would follow if Linden really started demonstrating that it was committed to the idea of linking all humanity.
And yeah, haha Pais – I was thinking of that same post by Kelly but decided to stay away from it for now.
[...] 26, 2008, 12:24 am Filed under: Uncategorized In a nice little twist of serendipity, a comment on this post led me to this site, where I found this: “the main reason SGG (Saint Gobain Glass) is now in [...]
On 06.25.08 Beau Dodson said:
I still say there is a decent chance we are all avatars. Seems to make sense. Eventually all of “our creations” will no longer be avatars but thinking/living/reasoning creatures. We will have created life.
Marketing is essential! Users will engage and still with something if they believe in the vision and make some friends–it is the journey to the 3D Web future, not the short-term destination that most people are excited about. We hear LL is rolling in the money lately–but not investing in marketing. No wonder new reg are stalling and even the devoted are withering.
I’d guess a lot of those savings come in the form of time and travel, not necessarily personnel. I can’t speak from personal experience, but that’s the impression I’m getting from talking to some of the people creating training sims.
Even though virtual worlds are great for replacing training rooms, real-world environments, and traveling to lectures, seminars, etc., the avatars that are helping you learn in context still usually need human help.
There are certainly some functions that could be automated and so VW technology might be a threat to some human training staff, but I’d guess that it’ll become a tool for many more of them.
Like the iTnews article continues, “Trainees can still interact with each other and their trainers.”
[...] tried PMOG (which constantly crashed my browser) and Weblin (which made too many irritating noises and left me feeling like my avatar was standing in the [...]
[...] covered Sony’s Home previously, and commented that the delay in its launch sounded primarily cosmetic. Once feared as a possible [...]
On 06.27.08 Eris said:
Hmm, but Sony are a major content provider with huge catalogues of games, movies and TV. My guess would be that better embedding that content into ‘Home’ is the reason for the delay not making prettier inworld environments. Sony don’t want Home to be like SL, they’ve said this already, so it seems likely they’ll use it a 3D portal to Sony-owned content.
So you make your avatar at Home, your friends do the same (or you make some new friends inworld) and then invite them round to your free apartment to watch pay-per-view movies or TV on your inworld movie wall. Or collect a gang of friends together and jump straight into a pay-per-session game of LocoRoco, or whatever…
Surely Home will be driven by content? Sony will make it a reasonably compelling place to linger but then base Home’s ‘economy’ on delivering paid content. They don’t need avatars to make the content – they own it all already!
In my view the big stumbling block is the demographics of the install base: something like 99% PS3 owners are dudes. How you gonna have a successful social virtual world when you can only socialize with other dudes?
Well the roadmap is the problem, and I think RaR is just tired of anticipating on a rather void ‘promise’ Philip regards to be their mission (their ‘roadmap’) – ‘the 3D internet’. That however, is not a goal you’d want to have your money in unless you can afford to lose it.
Not sure I agree on that – most social (internet) platforms are still male/geek dominated – what you need is context. The social element in MMORPG’s is excellent because it provides instant context to 1) beak the ice – 2) Provide a topic both parties know about/are passionate about. That is the basic premise of meaningful social interaction.
What does bother me are the loading screens and limited tools to give this online place meaning. PS3 unlike pc is not something that would be ‘on by default’.
Console use is different as in whenever you start it, you pretty much know what you are going to do: Play a game. Different from PC which has reached a state of being on by default, which benefits socializing online. So why ‘hang out’ in the place ‘between games’ when yo came to play? I hope Sony can provide some good answers to that.
On 06.27.08 jodie said:
i got in through using a techcrunch invite and had an entertaining time. i can see how some might find this annoying – at first, i found it weird to see avatars in my browser. But when I went to the roach site through a wormhole and saw others there it really lit my otherwise dim light bulb. i browsed away very happy with virtual roaches, thank you very much. the art looks youngish so perhaps you are not the target market. I am a early 30’s female and had a blast, although i might not be the target either. if they can get a chunk of the highly coveted teen-20’s market and can rocket them around from site to site, I can see marketing departments all over the world trying to find these guys.
Technology is not a promise, it’s a means. The Lab promises the ‘betterment of mankind’ or whatever the heck their mission statement is but never answers the question of WHY: WHY will we all be better because of the 3D Internet? Give me the reasons and we can make sure the tools and the plans for getting there make sense. But maybe they should abandon their plans for improving humanity and stick to something simpler. Any one of these would work:
- Develop the systems, support, and marketing to achieve a 100M avatar milestone by the end of 2009.
- Leverage the fact that SL is the largest platform for user generated content in the world by working tirelessly to secure and protect IP rights, and to develop systems that allow users to effectively promote their own efforts.
- Become the premier platform for business collaboration, training and education by opening up the Grid and creating true interoperability of content and tight integration with external databases and content.
- Sell 10,000,0000 islands and then get the hell out, letting users grab their sims and host them in their basements, and generate an ongoing revenue stream through cross-collateral deals with major equipment makers like IBM and CISCO.
Those are promises. Specific missions that you can hang your hat on and develop a road map against. Each of these would lead to specific choices and trade-offs on technology investments, marketing, user attraction and retention. And, as you’d gather, many of them work at cross-purposes so you need to CHOOSE one. Otherwise you end up with a muddled mess, with content developers upping the cost because they can make just as much money now spitting out Daz models or whatever; with land owners watching their portfolios evaporate; with universities looking for a place to teach where they can back up their content and integrate it with the learning management systems; and in the process you end up pissing everyone off just enough that you have no advocates left.
Tough choices. Because as much as they might like to be all things to all people, they don’t have the resources to do that. And there’s too much competition now too do a bunch of little things half way, you’re better off choosing a few big things and doing them exceptionally well.
My feelings exactly – and if I’d had to pick one model for SL – I’d simply go with being a 3D facebook. Facilitate meetings, social interaction, profiles and expression, benchmark by users and useful information ‘mined’ and facilitate/optimize the required tools. Zuckerberg & Co is not doing bad of their ‘facilitation of interaction amongst users’ and i am convinced virtual worlds have value here, in creating more immersive, rich, personalized and closer experiences than 2D can offer.
Much to radical and easy to say from our perspective of course – but hypothetically it would give investors, developers and users a focuspoint – and LL some measurable, visible milestones to rekindle outside interest (hopefully in a more sane manner than we’ve seen in 2006) rather than to slowly strangle it with community mis-management and (or due to) lack of a clear message to the outside world
…and when they have an event that is on their agenda (SL5B, Burning Man, CSI) they use their log-on splash screen…but for something like NPIRL Garden of Delights we get no support…feeling like we playing with someone else toys? Where is “platform” with service-level agreements to customers? Or is it just their toy and we part of the toybox (and dupes for paying to fuel their profits)…
On 06.29.08 Eris said:
I think we can pick two directions not just one. So Second Life turns 5 and turns 2 in the same moment?
The user-made and user-traded content model works. People like it, they like being able to share their imagination with others, like having control over their own content whether they decide to gift it or sell it, they like shopping in a virtual world. User content is intrinsic to the land market too, kill one you kill the other. In short, IT WORKS and it’s paying SL’s bills right now, something the freetard developers keep forgetting. So keep it, strengthen it, extend it and, most-of-all, build a 100 metre wall around it and fast. Second Life should be a walled garden of unearthly delights.
On the other hand enterprise, education and some businesses need interoperability, scalability, open-source code, the ability to host their own sims. So give them that. The Grid should be the wider, open-sourced, interoperable platform and SL should be a walled garden within it.
We’re essentially already there but the mud in the water is the status of SL content in this wider grid. Clear the mud, give content-makers in SL the opportunity to flag their content as ‘transportable’ meaning it is allowed to leave the confines of SL and move to a wider Grid. Anything not marked as transportable STAYS in SL and Linden fight to keep it there (or else).
Why can’t we have the best of both virtual worlds?
I sure hope those of you who want a 3d facebook don’t get your way, at least not with second life. Otherwise, just shoot me now. A separate 3d facebook elsewhere is fine for those of you who want to be bored $hiteless and don’t care that just seeing people’s faces and talking traditional business etc is only a small part of the potential of 3d worlds.
I thought you were more of a liberal than you appear to be with this harsh and Darwinian socialist plan.
Try to think a bit about Soviet giantism and “virgin lands” collectivism, or for that matter, if you’d rather bash American, think of American suburban sprawl.
Either of these models constitute “growthism,” that is, that profits or “betterness” can only come from growth, endless growth, moving from glory to glory. But of course, growth needs to be sustained, and there isn’t any plan for that, from the Lindens, or in your quick-impact list.
1. We may be at a hard concurrency ceiling of 65,000 that just can’t get better — perhaps that’s as many servers as you can scale on one grid with one central asset server — and that’s it. There are material limitations even to virtual things, and maybe that’s it for now — and the future consists of a lot of loosely connected grids.
Stressing out the system to shoehorn 100,000 concurrency strikes me as draconian and harsh, as it is not likely to get any more stable and will only be achieved at overfulfilling norms, Stakhanovite labour, etc. (sorry for the Soviet metaphors, but they fit).
2. Your notion that LL should just “sell 10 million islands and get out, let users grab their sims” sounds awfully can-do and tekkie, but is ignorant of the realities of the average user, even land baron with a continent. Most people cannot run server farms — they do not have the infrastructure, the maintenance capacity, the T-1 lines, etc. etc. Most people would be unlikely to run even one server. Even if they could rent from other people who then get into the server farm business, that opens up new problems. So while some enthusiastic geeks may do this, the average person will give up and go to some managed world — and the Lindens, failing to find a business model as all those freed sims go hook up on somebody else’s grid, will try to maintain some sort of collective, with a mainland and constellation of islands.
3. All kinds of other factors could happen — telecoms suddenly building more broadband and making it cheaper, or scarcity of broadband and telecoms cracking down on virtual world downloading, or politicians cracking down on a proliferation of own-hosted sims which present a regulation nightmare to them. So don’t bet on your plan to take place in a vacuum.
4. This obsession with interoperability is a chimera. SL would likely do better protecting IP and the integrity of the economy, and let all those other Wonderland and Forterra type platforms interoperate to their heart’s content if it’s so important to them. I would predict that business use even of virtual worlds that they can utterly control and have “interoperability” with simply will not graft into business culture as fast as other developments like increased capacity of mobile phones and video blogging. What makes virtual worlds interesting isn’t their virtuality, but their world. Making a Maya type program or a Sims 2 available for interactivity has its uses but without community and content and an economy, it’s just an add-on.
It’s interesting to see RightasRain go off on the Lindens, after all the feting they have done with him, constantly putting him on the front page. I don’t think the splash screen should go to resident activities because it would be more unfair even than the very unfair Showcase, where Greenies has reined for months and months. The log-on should only be for Linden-sponsored public events.
I’m always puzzled by this obsession with saving content offline. There aren’t any virtual worlds that enable you to do this. Oh, sure, if you make a texture in Photoshop, you save it on your hard-drive. But what use is a 3-D chair made to fit the scale and look and physics of Second Life on some other platform?
The fact is, for five years now, the Lindens have kept the content on the Internet, safe from loss from your own computer’s crashes — that’s how I see it. Sure, they lose inventory. But what’s remarkable is how much they save and how it is there on demand, available for individual creativity or group collaboration. There’s nothing to say that an XYZ prim sort of structure is optimal for building worlds. Other platform will not have prim-based building — so why fuss about the ability to back up a complex SL build done in prims?
I think the Lindens need a completely different roadmap about completely different things.
o Governance — the Lindens have made virtually no improvements in their very limited and very abusive and arbitrary governance systems — and they need to change drastically — Lindens should adopt a firm position of not becoming involved in inter-resident disputes whatsoever, unless they violate real-life laws such as fraud or child pornography. The Lindens need to develop more robust police blotter reporting, a more sophisticated ombudsmen system with residents/Linden interaction on tough cases or issues; my God, if Even Online can have player governance over minerals and starships, the Lindens can surely put in at least some rudimentary advisory council for people who invest real money in the platform that would be more fair than “SL Views” and other FIC groups.
o Zoning — only rabid ideological extremism keeps the Lindens from zoning — when they are ready to bite the bullet on this they will both reduce inter-resident friction and increase value and business for themselves and others — even a mere division into “residential” and “commercial” by physical continent layout would make a world of difference
o Forums should be restored, permabans reversed, and this ridiculous long tail of 150 comments on blog posts — rarely answered — ceased in favour of announcements only without comments — put up a disclaimer of liability for resident expression the way every other online news site does, and tell residents who are easily offended that they can avail themselves of real-life lawyers and libel laws should they feel the need
o Robust inworld state (Linden)radio that sells ad spots, that everyone can put on their land to add more inworld media and coherent and civilization-building
o Sell ads at the welcome areas on kiosks, signs, billboards — get over the allergy against advertising by encouraging it where the eyeballs are really there, and regulating it where they are not (pristine waterfront ruined by ad extortionists)
On 06.30.08 Prokofy Neva said:
A model that depends on constant growth in the user numbers, such as RightAsRaid is demanding, and petulance about the Lindens not achieving that growth, isn’t sustainable and never was sustaintable. RightAsRain is basically saying, “Get out of the way and let us run the REG APIs and welcome areas since you are doing such a crappy job,” yet if there is a ceiling on concurrency, as well as a limit in the ability of ad sponsorship to keep covering expensive builds (RightAsRain’s model) due to audience shifts, burning through content, and competition, no amount of owning and running registration tools and welcome islands can fix that.
Anyone whose empire has grown along with the Lindens has been finding it collapsing for a year now.
Raw numbers of sign-up and growth for growth’s sake has to be abandoned for more concentration on retention and higher-quality user experiences, as well as enabling of lighter use for those without graphic card ability and broadband.
Is there a ceiling on concurrency from a technical perspective? Dunno really? Wow is certainly running at higher rates.
But assume there is then…why not reducing camping and bots? They are free accounts that consume platform resources.
Is it because LL is scared that elimnating camping with flaten the concurrency? My guess is that 25% of SL concurrency is campers! (Hope i am wrong btw)…camping also creates cashflow to accounts that in turn buy things (and not enough from us). So impact of dealing with Camping is significant, but it is also a defining point for the future of LL/SL.
On 06.30.08 Rightasrain said:
…maybe we settle for transcripts from their boardmeetings?
[...] no steenkin’ keyboards! Posted on June 30, 2008 by Morris Vig Dusan Writer unearths a hint as to the Grid’s future direction in the Second Life ™ code that he found on a placeholder [...]
Say is it possible to use PV3D (AS2) w/ SWX together? Is that how you Tag Galaxy together? I have been trying to do something similar?
On 07.01.08 Prokofy Neva said:
1. Lindens swear to me that it is only 10 percent, but I don’t believe them.
2. Tekkies argue vigorously about whether you can even tell if an account logging on is a bot or not — I maintain that you can, by its patterns of behavior and speech, but maybe this isn’t so easily automated. But I think the log-on routines through the use of bots from libsl probably have recognizable patterns
3. Even if you got rid of 10 percent or even 20 percent of the bots, that wouldn’t necessarily help the problem — because people aren’t logging on because they get turned away or lag out all the time — there are only 45,000 logging on at times when there could be 66,000.
4. I’m told there is a ceiling on concurrency but I just don’t know as LL may not wish to tell us, although we can note they have steadily pushed this upwards over the years.
On 07.01.08 Toxic Menges said:
Habbo suffers from a surfeit of alts, the same as SL. Users forget their pw’s, or are banned, or just want a new name to grief someone with – they sign up and make a new account. These numbers have nothing to do with any type of concurrency, which have been falling of late.
On 07.01.08 Nacon said:
Only if I had knew about this content sooner, I would have ended up making 10+ UI Design by now.
Too bad I can’t enter in something hot.
On 07.01.08 Nacon said:
Are those website traffic you’re speaking of?
Cause that’s pointless when WOW is not an website.
One of the things that strikes me in discussions about attracting new users, retention and orientation is that people tend to talk to them as if they all look the same, although maybe that’s just me. I’d be curious how many new users come in because of a class, because their work asks them to sign up, and that however they arrive they’re promptly whisked off to a private island somewhere, a school sim, or slipped behind the IBM firewall or something.
My point in listing out different options for strategy wasn’t to advocate for them, but to make the point that HAVING a strategy results in trade-offs, focus and a communication and marketing plan. The lack of one means making patchwork efforts to please diverse constituencies including internal ones. I’m no strategist, but I think about the Balanced Scorecard approach to corporate strategy and am reminded that it asks companies to make decisions about things like cost versus price, and internal versus external perspectives. Linden, I think, places far too much focus on internal groups than external ones, priding itself on the Tao or whatever it is, and the idea that treating its employees like innovation engines is the key to its growth – let the coders gravitate to projects that appeal to THEM. Tweaking the strategic emphasis to a more tightly structured user focus within a broader strategic framework seems to me to be long overdue.
So my examples were merely meant to illustrate that if you have a strategy, some actions and emphasis sort of falls away. So, take the concurrency strategy – while I realize there are limitations, if Linden decided its main goal was to get as many people in world as it could, I’d bet that they’d end up spending a lot less time on rendered shadows and a lot more time on light clients. I can’t remember which of the platforms at the VW conference was touting its parallel worlds? Basically being able to access their grid through both a “heavy” client and a Flash-based thin client – and the world looks completely different to each user group. One was full 3D and the other translated those 3d objects into 2D Habbo-like rooms.
Likewise the “host your own Grid” strategy – take a direction like that and you start investing in how to split the asset servers off into separate little mini asset hosts. I’m not a techie, but the idea of placing the assets closer to the sims on which they appear strikes me as worth looking at – perhaps to the point where a school or immersive sim could even deliver their assets on a CD so they preload to your computer.
Regardless, each of the strategies I outlined were just hypotheticals – the point being that if you HAVE a strategy then your decision-making process starts to feel a lot less, um, organic (sorry M) than it does now. You wouldn’t have these arguments with Torley over rendered shadows because you’d be able to say “Yeah, but rendered shadows are a barrier to our 100M avatar goal, let’s focus on a Flash-based client instead.”
As for bots. Hmmm. They’re resource-sucking and evil. They also make no sense to me – for 100L a day, is someone getting rich off these things? or is it the thrill of gaming the system?
But I do think that somewhere in the course of the next year or two that bots, whether in SL or elsewhere, will start to have more productive functions. I’m thinking NPCs I guess, for training, help, whatever – or my more idealized version of bots that are information gathering machines, kind of like spiders, roaming the Grid, accessing databanks of rich information and 3D visualization engines and shipping that data back to a dashboard.
Road maps for governance, zoning, all that stuff is critical. I’d still propose however that they fall under a strategic statement or purpose in order that those individual road maps are within a broader, coherent mission.
Monthly visitors. Which I assume means logging on.
On 07.01.08 Eris said:
“escaping real life, being someone else, and creating and managing avatars”
I still detect (maybe it’s just me?) a disdain about these uses of virtual worlds, but I’m thinking more and more we need to see them as strengths not weaknesses. Think of time spent in Second Life or other VWs as short ‘brain vacations’ and maybe one way forward becomes clearer?
What if VW’s were even more like ‘imagination-resorts’ you visit, or more correctly a collection of resorts for you to choose from, each differently themed – a gay beach resort, a dystopian megalopolis, a medieval court…all imagined and run by residents themselves, pretty much as now except…
You would login, pick your destination and PAY YOUR ACCESS FEE (a revenue stream which would supplement possibly even replace the land rental model we have now) and that little world is yours to explore for as long as you’ve paid for. Immersive avatars could be employed to populate the sim, like a living museum, playing out scenarios you’re invited to join.
Not really much different to parts of SL now, just with a business model that invites casual visitors instead of permanent residents. Couldn’t that work and wouldn’t it be fun? Maybe it already exists and I just don’t get out enough?
However, I see Rezzable are about to introduce admission fees to some of their builds, be very interesting to see if it works for them. It could be one way forward for a lot of VW’s.
I really would love to see this come alive. It’s such a beautiful plan. I twould be nice to see how he incorporated historic buildings and existing mosques.
Way to run with it, Dusan! It would be fantastic to see someone attempt this, or indeed with any other forgotten plans. I’ve often wondered if there would be scope for getting some of Lebbeus Woods’ designs actually ‘built’ in a virtual world, because they never will be in the ‘real’ world.
On 07.02.08 Nacon said:
Oh I can? well… still need more time since I only found out about this today. I don’t think you would be willing to wait a few days for me, would you?
Depends on how many people submitted, could imagine not very many. If more than 20 submitted, then it’s not worth the wait for one person, would be unfair for them because I didn’t come in by fixed deadline.
[...] Linden Lab at the end of the fith birthday celebrations of Second Life (that would be July 7). On Dusan’s Writer Metaverse I read about a shocking discovery: The following is embedded in the source code of a blank [...]
[...] l’agence Reuters qui relaie cette info issue du blog de Dusan Writer qui aurait trouver par hasard, sur le site de Second Life, le communiqué suivant [...]
On 07.03.08 Greaser Waco said:
I would love to have the PS3 version, the PS3 would rip it up compared to most people’s personal computers. Plus movement using the PS3 sixaxis? YES! A fall down to the ground and the controller vibrates? Don’t get me started… I’ve been searching “SecondLife” and “PS3″ for months now hoping to find any story like this with any plans for SL to hit PS3.
This is cool, Dusan. Thanks for thinking of and implementing a way to pry a crack in the door to get some good ideas.
Judging entries is one thing, and I know that is important to connect to the motivational prize, but i wonder about another step that asks how to cherry-pick from elements of the entries to create an uber/gestalt design. I see some that have different ideas for overall aesthetics/skin, then functions, like inventory, communication, movement, editing, and so forth… so if the judging was also at the various element levels, those winners could be migrated into the overall design. meh? or no-meh?
On 07.03.08 Prokofy Neva said:
Dusan, you are letting yourself be easily whipsawed and brow-beaten by these people, and that’s a disservice to all of us.
1. It doesn’t matter if the tower is paying the host, and not the clicker — so what? The data scraping issue still remains as a privacy problem.
2. Code4 Software and the empire of Ancient Shriner and Chrischun Fassbinder that sustains their claim to “market expertise” in SL is what is at the root of the illegitimacy of SLIPPCat, and they need to sever the relationship or pressure these two cunning exploiters to remove their towers that deface sims and hijack other people’s business traffic on their tiny 16 m2 plots to scrape their data.
Code4 is a discredited business using unscrupulous methods now, inworld, in ways that are completely the opposite of what SLIPPCAT claims. Chrischun Fassbinder, who only just yesterday quit putting extortionist prices on his 16 m, gained his empire and his resources through this extortion for 3 years in SL — SLIPPCat should not be dealing with people like that.
And they have not stopped their view hijacking and eyeball hijacking. They are all over on sims where people DID NOT ASK them to come where they scrape data and take OTHER PEOPLE’S CUSTOMER TRAFFIC and parasite off it to use as data to sell their software to these much bigger outworld companies.
Dave Elchoness is merely engaged in distractions here, he must not have an inworld business.
Sorry, but outworld businesses and fancy old boys’ clubs like Metanomics simply do not get to pursue their brand of subsidized networking on the backs of inworld business, destroying their value by engaging in, or supporting, or whitewashing, unscrupulous business practices.
Sounds good Pais – and I think one of the challenges will be to further integrate this with work the Lab itself is doing. There have been some really good concepts, for example, around the notifications system – much more intuitive, and linked to some changes to the server-side as well.
For others, I’ve been told there have been some problems with some of the images in the post and with the Slideshare presentation. I can’t seem to replicate some of those errors but if there are problems first, check out the Slideshare site directly and second maybe drop a note so I can try to track down what’s causing it.
As far as uber designs, feels to me like a little follow-up mash-up might be in order.
[...] Lab today dampened speculation that Second Life is about to be ported to the XBox, that Mitch will open source the whole the like Mozilla, or what held the most promise for the [...]
On 07.04.08 peroo pera said:
I received that message too from Bicky Burger and contacted him about it. He sounded like he really believes he has brought something very special in SL and wants to show the world. I mean he didn’t sound like a lame spammer. Reading his note I thought it was another stupid attempt to find a worthless loophole for the gambling ban. But after teleporting there and actually having a try, I must say I was amazed by the concept. It all looks decent and worked out well. I actually had fun on that slotmachines and video poker And as he stated you actually can get your winnings payed in Linden Dollars because it actually is not gambling, but joining a sweepstakes drawing. Do we need it? Well I think that’s up to every individual to decide. I like it because I had fun in the casino’s in the past as well. Sweepstakes also exist in real life and are in fact very popular in US. Even big company’s like Mc Donalds use it for their promotional purposes. If the BickyBeans system is respecting the same rules, I don’t see why it would not be acceptable in SL. And if nobody needs it, it will have no market value and despite of the great work Bicky has done overthere, it will die in silence. But in my opinion I think such a creative project should get some support or at least a ’second chance’!
On 07.04.08 Eris said:
“the value of objects will drop off a cliff – why buy a house when they’re free”
Uhm, what did i miss? Houses used to be amongst the cheapest items in SL, at least when i first logged in, and now they’re amongst the most expensive. A good prefab will now set you back $1000’s when it used to be $100’s at most. I do take your point about object-saturation devaluing things but there’s an interesting flip-side to it too – it devalues them to their owners too…
The increasing quality and sophistication of (many) objects available in SL keeps things churning as people upgrade their beach-house or its contents. New features added to SL make this more likely too – look at how sculpts have changed things (shame they take a fortnight to load, but hey) or how Glow re-invents certain objects. These new techniques make yesterdays freebies look very tired and dated and everyone wants to update and upgrade.
It’s a tough time for SL designers and builders I know, but it isn’t all over just yet…
Sorry, Eris, I didn’t mean to imply that the object economy was dead, merely that it’s being elevated to a higher plane. Because you’re right – houses have gone up in price because what was acceptable a few years ago isn’t now – now, it needs to be rendered, have built in security systems, ability to change the textures and lighting schemes, have windows that don’t just tint they have blinds that swing closed, or are rendered external to SL in 3DS Max and stuff like that.
So picking up on Hamlet’s post over on NWN, while the growth of new residents is flat, he points out that the number of “big spenders” is growing. I’m proposing that the market for ‘lower end’ goods dries up – again, my jeans point. How many jeans can there possibly be? BUT, how many jeans with sculpted legs? And they cost more. So you get the lower end huge market evaporating and people spending more money on fewer items – again, the “level” at which content developers operate keeps increasing, it’s no longer enough to texture clothes you also have to sculpt the hoods, and not only that but build a service-business with a well-branded retail experience, group management, community events, promotion etc.
My take on the situation is it’s positive not negative – so long as the “level” at which content is developed and sold keeps increasing, SL will continue to have a sustainable economy (although land pricing is a whole other line of thought). Sites like IMVU and other ‘object-based economies’ where the tools aren’t as robust, will suffer in the long-term unless they too build, well, economies of tools rather than economies of scale.
On 07.04.08 Nacon said:
Hmm kinda small to look at the details in those pictures. Oh well. Roy Cassini’s look interesting.
On 07.04.08 Nacon said:
Oh and thank you for letting me in.
Dusan, you can place the link for the picture here for the full size.
On 07.04.08 Eris said:
Cool, we agree again then! I should apologise for misreading your original post…
This growing ‘divide’ between high-end content from experienced users and the older or freebie content is inevitable, a similar thing happened with the web in its early years. Altho’ it makes SL all the more interesting and we should celebrate the better content, it’s slightly sad too. So many users will find they’re unable to compete with the quality levels needed to have a successful business and will fall by the wayside – at least as builders, hopefully they’ll remain as residents. Natural wastage some might say but it makes SL seem that little bit less accessible to would-be creators, the hill you have to climb gets that bit steeper.
As for the increased hours we’re spending in-world – surely most of that’s a bot phenomenon? When there are people running bots just so they can auto-add people to groups isn’t there something wrong with the system and our use of its resources?
Hey Nacon – and thanks, yeah it was tricky to “fit to scale” and so on. Links to each of the entries is listed alongside, and sorry for not adding a link to the full-sized version!
First, reminder that I’ve also got these up on Flickr:
Copyleftists and leftists in general deeply wish for the object economy to be dead because they think the neo-communist model that will obtain in cyberspace will supplant discrete objects sold one at a time with intellectual property rights with a freebie culture where everyone will work on the collective farm for free, share in a “join work product”, and live off stone soup. That little old lady who grows the turnips is going to be worked to the bone, of course…
“The beach house, socializing user of yesterday might very well have been supplanted by teachers and students, businesses and trainers – who knows, maybe the hidden economy is all off on those closed islands, with IBM happily playing behind its firewall or Cisco or whoever holding business meetings over on some corporate sim somewhere.”
Yet another cherished geek goal — to get rid of those beach house socializers with their tacky mass culture and tawdry cyber-sexing and replace them with sophisticated urbanites having art gallery opens in faux distressed urban settings.
Except…those teachers and students do not do a lot of consumer buying. They are themselves horribly devoted to the freetard culture and encourage everybody to make and distribute for free — they don’t tend to buy a $3500 mansion, even if they might buy a $1500 skin — but they try to get the free skins.
Businesses and trainers? I don’t see them as massive upholders of the economy, either. Why do I think that? Because when I fly around my rentals or go shopping which I do constantly, I see people with group tags that show they belong to other rentals, clubs, newbie groups, activities groups and not business groups. The business people don’t leave their islands — to be part of the economy, they’d have to leave their islands.
Oh, they might hire an interior decorator and she might buy a plant — woot! — but that’s hardly an infusion into the economy.
I think that in fact bots *do* in part account for this big 30,000-80,000 surge, as bot use has been increasingly substantially precisely because of the economic downturn, as businesses seek frantically to increase traffic on a few high-traffic venues or increase camping because they need to pay for eyeballs to come see their vendors’ offerings and maybe buy out of them.
I don’t think bots account for ALL the surge in spending, however, and here is what is going on. Americans and British and other English-language speakers think the world ends when their old world decreases, but they forget that those speaking French, German, Russian, Japanese, Portugese are coming *too*. You can’t read their blogs (actually, I get a kick out of reading their blogs sometimes when I see them linking to me, and I find it hilarious to read stuff like this that is incomprehensible except for one word:
Prokofy hagendazz mit kerflaken ham su permabannen.
LOL
I see blogs in Taiwanese, Hebrew, and Tagalog mentioning only two decipherable words “Prokofy” and “FIC” lol.
These French and German and Japanese and Russian are coming in and starting businesses and sometimes very sophisticated products that they sell to their fellow countrymen. They are venturing out and starting to buy farther afield as well, so even without especially advertising for “foreigners” (although I try to put in key words at least) I get them. They can’t understand a word I’m saying, we use translators sometimes, but they do understand how to right click and pay an object.
The EU members think that because of VAT, and because of all the whiney little issues fanned by Vint Falken, that SL is dead. But it isn’t dead for someone brand-new from France or Germany or Russia or Japan who doesn’t care about their effete culture and is essentially not THAT different from the mass culture of the beach housers and socializers. People are people.
They may have succeeded in retaining precisely because a lot of the Orientation Island stuff contained English only or Western-style cultural memes that were simply opaque to them so they skipped right over them lol.
On 07.04.08 Prokofy Neva said:
Eris, your tears for oldbie freebie content leave me COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY unmoved, and here’s why:
You feted oldbies made crappy content, and then glutted the market with it horribly, making it free and copyable, but not transferable and sellable, and often not modifiable.
They didn’t REALLY want to help the economy by helping innovation by leaving things on “mod” — they merely wanted to show off their fake altruism and have other people tier their freebies displays to drive them to their stores where they sold whoppingly expensive stuff. They didn’t REALLY want to help newbies by enabling them to transfer and sell their items, often by modifying them — which would REALLY be altruistic. The newbies would hardly sell them for much, and it would help both spread of the loss-leaders and help to newbies to enter the economy, instead of having to enter a harsh apprenticing system controlled by oldbies ruthlessly.
So what happened due to this awful oldbie freetard culture is that innovation was stifled, and newbie-to-newbie economic relations were not encouraged. A newbie who could pick up an ugly Siggy Romulus beachhouse never had any motivation to try to sweat out making his own and selling it.
It took breaking the forums, where these people ruled, and making a larger world with lots more people outside the US, finally to get the newbie-to-newbie economy functioning again, largely thanks to Brazilians, Japanese, Spanish, Dutch, Russian, etc. who made cheaper furniture and houses.
I knew SL was finally turning a corner more than a year ago when I saw my first German 512 m2 prefab, with a creative design and nice textures.
The people who wanted to “help” newbies by showering them with freebies as if they were toddlers and not adults with disposable income with DSL lines just like themselvse helped cripple the economy.
The fact of the matter is, the oldbie craftsmen still go on making expensive stuff and freebies which they still use all their FIC institutions to get newbies hooked up — showing up in the Library even with skins; being in Showcase; getting on the website; being featured in Torley tutorials, etc. etc.
On 07.04.08 Prokofy Neva said:
>Perhaps the real economy has shifted, as Philip famously predicted, to a service economy – one built on helping folks solve problems, not on furnishing their beach houses.
In one very large sense, you can’t make money on the Internet because it’s basically just a big telephone you use to call the warehouse and send the same trucks over the same roads with the same stuff you could get if you went to the store in person.
There is a certain amount of artificial demand you can create for people to buy $1 hats on Facebook or even $100 US beach houses on or $1500 islands on Second Life, but it isn’t going to be wildly massified because most people pretty much have to earn and buy money in real life pretty much tethered to their real-life needs.
An entire film arose over the structure of this giant telephone called the Internet that provides all kinds of technical services, consulting, software, scripts, etc. but a lot of the jobs are being shipped to India and China and while it’s all good, and represents a successful sector, it isn’t enough to entirely replace old features of economies like making steel or plastic or lumber.
Philip fails to realize, evidently, like you, that the basic problem most people want to solve is having a meaningful relationship with another human being who listens to them and has sex with them. And Second Life has solved that problem wondrously for many hundreds of thousands of people.
But…real life continued to solve it better, or at least, Facebook continued to solve it better.
Yes, there are 10 million people playing World of Warcraft, but I think that most people aren’t adolescent boys who want to play war. So there’s a limit to this sector and the “problems it can solve”.
I realize the business types are struggling manfully to portray this as a platform where there can be training and meetings. Unfortunately, it runs the high risk of exposing how fatuous and meaningless and wasteful the whole trainings sector thing itself is in business unless it’s spliced very carefully.
I think for most business people from real life in SL, if you asked them what they really got out of SL, if it isn’t a close personal relationship, or a sense of accomplishment from building, or a topic about which they can self-express on a blog, they haven’t gotten anything out of it and it doesn’t interest them and they wander away, even if they mouth platitudes about “training”.
Second Life is a telephone — a party line, for most people who can’t afford the level of privacy and sophistication it can offer some.
On 07.04.08 Prokofy Neva said:
Ian Bogost is such a politically-correct sourpuss.
Slimjim is a cool game, this is the wave of the future.
Prok – I’m not an economist, I leave that to Castranova along with his tireless attempts to preserve the magic circle. But I DO follow his line of reasoning that in a world with no scarcity that it’s a bit of a pyramid scheme when it comes to an object economy. 10 people come, they make jeans, they need 20 people to come along and buy them, those 20 need 40 to buy the t-shirts they make, and so on. There are no sinks – the only sinks are canceled accounts and my inventory. Some day I’ll hold a 1L sale for items called “Object” and bring down the markets entirely.
Time, attention, users and MAYBE server space are scarce, so they’re the things that leave platform owners with some levers with which to control the world.
Thus my disagreement with Linden’s sudden change of sim pricing, and my railing along with the Rezzables that they don’t do enough to attract new users and haven’t been aggressive enough in improving the orientation experience. In a world of abundance, the battle is for new users, their time, and their investment in the one scarce resource left – server space. Oh, sorry – the other scarce resource right now is code – sure, there’s other worlds, but there’s a scarcity of code that allows you to launch a user-generated world that comes anywhere NEAR to Second Life. It’s why the concept of taking the server code open source is moronic. SURE, let folks teleport to OpenSim and back – if they’re going to leave anyways, you might want to preserve the ability to keep a lifeline to their wallets – there’s no commerce on OpenSim, at least let them come back and spend some money – again, the scarcity is time, and if you can’t have all of it, desperately try to hang on to a few minutes of it anyways.
So that leaves us with new users. Sure, Linden can pull in new markets – but if only 1 in 20 stays past the first hour, well, sure, I guess there are a lot of countries out there, maybe broadband will catch up with the Filipines, but it would be a lot easier if they’d get 2 in 10 to stay instead.
So, I’m not ADVOCATING for a freebie culture. I posted here quite a while ago that one of the economic metrics that isn’t tracked but should be is the gift economy – the freebies, swaps, handouts and crafts. Don’t ask me HOW to measure it, maybe Typewriter can go stand on a sim somewhere with a clipboard and watch, or harangue people at the local mall to complete a “short simple questionnaire” and then upload his data to Castranova’s brain or whatever they do.
Frankly, if Xcite! would publish its sales data, I think we’d learn everything we need to about the direction of SL. As Xcite falls or rises, so does the Grid.
And some time ago, I think back in the days of my poor understanding of the term ‘thumb-sucking’, I tried to clarify that yeah, sure, I’m an elitist northern liberal or whatever, but that I realize that the reason Second Life exists, the reason it will persist, is because of the beach house, not whatever’s happening over on the Princeton sims. It’s a Story Box – well, it’s what I call it anyways. As I said:
“There’s room for the quiet steady pace of Caledon and its genteel citizens, and there’s room for the dark urban shadows of Midian City or the City of Lost Angels. The communities of shop keepers, the people saving up from camping to rent their first little plot of land…all of these are important stories. Because when we gather round to talk to each other, first we need to sort out what happened in the day, and that’s what people are doing….imagining variations of their real lives, or ones that they’d like to have…talking and chatting, mingling and copulating, driving the car they’ll never be able to afford otherwise or getting a makeover that catapults them to movie star good looks.”
This doesn’t negate the fact, however, that when we gnash our teeth over the new user data, or time in world, or slippage in the economy that there are a few realities at play:
1) As the number of objects has grown, deflation occurs, and objects that once may have cost money can now often be got for free.
2) As a result, as Eris points out, the way to win in this economy is to create ever-better objects, which often means creating stuff AROUND the objects. Which is good, because it means better stores instead of sloppy prims, and it means communities and group management tools etc.
3) There MAY be a shift to more user time in world because there are now a few other user ‘types’ – namely business collaboration, schools, etc. I’d propose that these groups don’t do anything for the SL economy – they help sell server space, but even for that I think Linden’s headed in the wrong direction, because for the schools they need cheap, they need lower computer specs, and they need secure. For businesses, it’s fine for a few willing early adopters, but the SL “brand” is too fraught with peril for the majority.
I point out these realities not because I agree with them, simply to point out that there are a few things that change over time, and how we measure ‘traffic’ or ‘growth’ should take into account some of these countervailing trends.
So what we have is Second Life as one of the top three growing sites by sheer volume of hours. youTube and Facebook are based on user-generated content but it’s FREE content, made for free and given away for free. Now, youTube was just forced to download the IP addresses of all those folks who viewed illegal youTube videos to the government – THAT’S what I call copy protection. But really – have either Facebook or youTube made any MONEY yet?
The only people making money amongst these top three sites are the Lindens, selling server space that they threaten to open source, and the content creators whose creations are not aggressively protected. And sure, a land owner or two – but I call them content creators as well, because they really take a blank slate and create an environment that people are willing to pay money to live on.
If your analogy is right, then what the Lab is planning is to give away free long distance to anyone who wants it so that they can then proclaim that IBM is using their phones, and will then wonder why they’re not making money and IBM is chuckling as it packages up fire-walled sims with integrated Lotus notes apps or whatever.
But at least the phone sex lines will probably keep turning a profit. As Xcite! rises, so rises SL.
On 07.04.08 Eris said:
Prok – I’m shedding NO TEARS for “oldbie freebie content”, good riddance to it, it’s ugly and inept – altho admittedly I learned a lot from pulling it apart.. I was making the point that new (potentially creative) users seeing the increasing quality of content available within SL may be discouraged before they start – it was a passing thought about SL’s inability to get past its current plateau.
You might think my content equally ugly and inept but my ambition is to improve and certainly not to be one of the ‘oldbies’ – how very dare you!
I may have agreed with some other things you said (i usually do) but i don’t have time to read all that – never a word when 100 will do, eh Prok?
I tried to update the PDF on my blog with a revised version (the contents are unchanged, but the typo to text ratio is mercifully lower. The old version made em wince each time I looked at it). Unluckily, I managed to mess up the link while I did, thanks to a fabulous joint effort with wordpress.com’s borked file manager. Anyway, the long and short of it is the entry is now located here. Sorry.
There are too many erroneous ideas in your essay to count.
First, the idea that the “hit machine” is being replaced. I guess that’s why…every news outlet faithfully covers “American Idol” on TV every morning and everybody watches “American Idol” every night, to its advertisers’ glee. YOU may not watch it; I may not watch it, but so many people do, that your notion of the death of the hit machine is completely skewed. Top 40 radio; top selling CDs; top-draw live cts — these concepts all completely pertain, and completely reward the stars they make even if there are now garage bands that also have a chance to make a little bit more on MySpace than they would on their home town club circuit.
The dirty little secret of the long tail is that it is…long. Mining it is time-consuming and hard work. And in fact the very people who celebrate it don’t live by its rules. Arrington tries to get first interviewed by mainstream media then gets himself a column on the Washington Post. People’s blogs and social media sites are constantly bought out by bigger media entities. The large concentrated media corporations own a lot of the blog and social sites anyway.
Creative Commons is socialist or communistic — when it isn’t being corporativist and medieval — and in fact the two ideologies have many basic similarities.
Groupism is fanned by those making a dime off the conference circuit with the new cyber communism, but in fact, real people in the real world keep defeating them and not marching in the rows they wish. The long tail is long — except when it isn’t, and is playing WoW.
Like Lessig, as I explain on my blog comments, you portray “monolithic corporations” as a caricature. At what point does a record company that helps a band get seen and sold become “monolithic”? There is such a range of these companies, and their operations have changed so in recent years that your notions are as outdated as your cliche about them http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2008/07/dear-lindens-no.html#comment-121245216
I’m glad you’ve conceded that this shill of “self-empowerment” and “self-actualized man” a la Marx are terribly deceptive. In fact, if Marx was REALLY about “self-actualized man” you wouldn’t have seen the destruction of the individual and his rights under communism that you in fact did see. The path to restoring that self-actualization does not lie in communes and guilds but in the struggle for individual civil rights and respect of property rights, just as it does in real life.
re: “we find ourselves at the whim of the local baron who decided that our IP rights aren’t worth enforcing, or who tries to cajole or co-opt our willingness to do stuff for free.”
But that’s Linden Lab. That’s Lessig. Lessig cajoles and co-opts willingness to do for free for the massive fraud that is Creative Commons. LL also pushed the freetard spirit as a way to get free labour for itself as a start-up and later as a business making a profit on fairly risky and thin margins.
The local baron isn’t Anshe Chung; it’s M Linden.
On 07.05.08 Prokofy Neva said:
Dusan, these are good insights, but you need to now push them further.
“this time the shelf space is where you’re placed on Google, how deep your banner advertising budget goes, and whether you can afford to upgrade your filter engine (a lesson maybe that Yahoo learned too late).”
The Infinite Aisle is only as big as your computer screen or your tiny mobile phone screen, your time, and your attention. So it’s bigger than a bricks and mortar store shelf near the door, but gosh, not THAT big…and accessing and manipulating and monitoring all those new screens in the infinite aisle turns out to be…not much different than the old model of the star machine. All those amateurs getting millions of hits on YouTube have attention and time, but no money.
And here’s where your friend Lessig and the Creative Commons and the guild all let you down. Because it was trying to harness you in a movement against the Man to bring down the big corporations. It was trying to use your power of enthusiasm and desire to get credit — in the belief you couldn’t — or shouldn’t — expect much else — and use you — exploit you! — to destroy a seat of power, the old white dead corporate blah blah.
Except, by doing that, they destroyed your ability to make a buck, to REALLY empower yourselves. So they are destructive Bolsheviks, and the shame should be deep for celebrating them.
I’m sort of failing to see if we’re disagreeing, or agreeing under a different guise, Prok. I’m trying to count the erroneous ideas but I’m not finding them. My premise is that the theory of the Long Tail is a hoax. It’s something that business is gobbling up. And it’s a hoax for two reasons: one, there are still hits, it’s just that the hits are being produced by Amazon and not Borders, by iTunes and not Sam Goodys or wherever. Even American Idol in its own way is an example – without mobile phones and crowdsourcing your friends to vote for your favorite Idol, and without youTube clips well, sure, it’s still a hit, but it’s still being fed partly by these newer media.
I didn’t say that hits are dead. Anderson points that out in his book as well – there are still hits, but they don’t sell at the same volume as 10 years ago and there are fewer of them, purchasing has been distributed down the tail. So my premise here is that if the Long Tail is a lie – that all the content providers have been offered paradise when in fact the powers of distribution are just being re-aggregated under new banners, then the danger is that we forget to ask the question “but who gets paid” as all these one song sales line the pockets not of the content creators but the Web portals.
This leads to pressure to compete. This pressure to compete leads to a guild-hall mentality, one in which stuff is given away for free, in which content creators resort to the Creative Commons on the slim chance that it will somehow give them SOME small slice of the pie.
Sure, there’s no such thing as the monolithic corporation. There are content creators who want to be companies, companies who want to tap into the content creators as cheaply as they can, and copyright whose goal was to protect intellectual property for its value in commerce. Did I say that was wrong? I don’t remember saying it was wrong, I simply said that the response to this was a reaction by those with fewer levers to power. And my point is that this is a trade-off. While trying to protect their own rights to distribute their content and have a slice of the pie, and while hoping that maybe there’s a slice of that pie in being able to mash up other content, the creative commons was created.
But my very point is that this is a guild hall mentality. And my point about a guild hall mentality is that it’s medieval, not that it’s necessarily to be applauded or supported. What I fear is that the folks trumpeting creative commons don’t realize that they’re participating in a group compromise. Instead of asking what’s WRONG with the “what’s mine is mine and what’s yours is yours” approach to IP, they’ve adopted the attitude that old industries are being upended, they want in, so they’re letting themselves be co-opted to a degree by the folks who are trying to be the NEW industry, and whose doors they may find have been shut on them once the whole mess is sorted out.
And finally, I MEANT M Linden, I didn’t mean Anshe Chung. Where you read land baron by my use of the term baron, I think I was fairly clearly that the person who decides that our IP rights aren’t worth enforcing isn’t Anshe, it’s the Lab.
So I’d like to understand where the cliched ideas and erroneous claims are.
1. It is a “hit” society it’s just that WHAT is a hit has partly shifted.
2. I’m not celebrating the guild hall. It’s a medieval notion which has resurfaced in a misguided attempt to come to an accommodation with power rather than simply asking what’s wrong with power in the first place.
3. Our issue is with the Lab, not with copybots.
I see us, perhaps, as aggressively agreeing unless I’m missing something here. And I can’t believe I just said that, being the Canadian thumb-sucking liberal that I am.
[...] then previewed his 3D camera, positioning it as a cheap-and-ready motion capture system which I previously covered. The Big Announcement Mitch announced the creation of an annual award for achievement which [...]
[...] I suppose puts the early adopters in the category of refugees from reality? In fact, Mitch echoed Philip’s claim that the early users of Second Life were people “with too much time on their [...]
On 07.07.08 Taff Nouvelle said:
The line about voice is what made the most sense, Philip or Mitch doesnt like to type, so he had to have voice, so it was forced on us.
SL are losing customers for one reason and one reason only, they do NOT listen to what the customers want.
Any business without a good customer service record will fail.
I asked Blondin 4 times if there would be a video stream as promised. I was completely ignored,
That was not a suprise, it is what LL do, if they dont like the question, it is ignored.
no customer service will eventually mean no customers.
Thanks for posting this summary. I was unable to attend in avatar owing to the fact that SL can’t scale for these types of events, and the audio archive’s server was down when I tried to access it. However, I would like to say that I generally agree with his vision of the 3D Internet — except for Second Life being a part of it.
Taking the early adopted/Internet analogy (which I’ve seen Kapor use before) Second Life is kind of like the Gopher protocol — useful if you can figure it out, but hardly the technology that will drive the masses past the knee of the curve on that bell chart you have above.
On 07.07.08 Prokofy Neva said:
Re: “I somehow picture this group out in California that gets together over vegetarian sushi and compares vitamin regimens, all of them hoping to hang on just long enough to witness the Singularity.”
Thanks for giving me such a hard laugh for the day — no, for the month ROFL.
On 07.07.08 Alyx Sands said:
Thanks for the entertaining write-up- I had to attend several RL meetings today and there was no way I could have snuck off to log into SL!
I’ve had my first email address in early 1993 and my first browser was Lynx, which was text-only! Boy, have we come a loooong way!
On 07.07.08 Cocoanut Koala said:
OK, stay, bond, but don’t whine.
Sounds a lot like, “Give us your money and shut up.”
Pragmatism = real-world businesses and corporations, education, and charities.
Charm and character(or “yesteryear concepts” which will be eroded) = us.
(And don’t whine about it.)
And we, the early adapters, are going to become “uneasy” about our new role as yesteryear concepts, whose charm and character is no longer wanted or needed. It ain’t gonna be fun for us.
But – there are some things Linden Lab just has to do, sorry.
Have I got that about right so far? (Bearing in mind I haven’t listened to the speech.)
OK, moving on, announcements in decentralization will be coming in the next days, weeks, months – one after another after another, apparently.
What does “decentralization” mean? All I can think it means is the increasing loss of our center. Our center is LL, doing anything at all for us.
I tend to interpret that to mean, every step of this decentralization will be one less connection between us and LL, and one less thing LL feels responsible for doing to run this world.
Do I have that anywhere near right?
So in a nutshell, it’s shut up, stop whining and get out of our way to bigger and better things than the the concerns of you, the regular old residents who aren’t real-world corporations, educators, or charities.
(And by the way, we are going to remove services, one after another, and you won’t get them unless you give us 25,000 U.S. dollars to be in the corporate Enterprise level.)
BUT – buy my nifty new camera, and let me demonstrate how great it is!
Do I have all this right? Yes? No?
Kind of makes me wonder what we are here for then, if we are yesterday’s news they must turn away from now, and we are supposed to learn our new place.
Oh yeah – our MONEY. And our presence as audience for all those corporations.
And I guess many of us will still stick around for that, until they succeed in finally making it not just painful, but totally pointless.
I think I would call this Mitch’s official “So long suckers, and thanks for all the fish” speech.
[...] Posted by Sansarya Great line from Dusan Writer’s blog about the keynote: "He then encouraged residents to, well, basically to stop whining and start [...]
[...] is still in Beta, the early returns seem disappointing, especially since we’ve written here before about the potential for the platform to develop cities and use real world geography. We assume that [...]
On 07.07.08 Alberik Rotaru said:
The US West was largely settled by railways, mining companies and the US Cavalry. All operated on concessions and orders from the government. The first thing any rugged Western individualists did was not to gaze at the far horizon but sit down and write a town charter and elect a sheriff.
The supreme individualism of the Western tradition exists only in the mind of deeply unread people. One of the LL’s problems is that they’re good at churning out speeches that sound good at first hearing, but end up being so much bumph.
There was nothing in the Kapor speech that could not equally have been said by a 90s dotcommer immediately before the cash. Th escape from time and space didn’t mean anything then and it doesn’t mean anything now.
The true dotcommer escape was from corporate responsibility and that is still the case.
[...] out in a crowded universe of 3D chat rooms and virtual world dance halls. Groups like Dreamworks, Spielberg’s involvement with games, virtual celebrity-endorsed clothing from Millions of Us are bringing name recognition where right [...]
On 07.07.08 mooncaine said:
Thank you for the summary and graphics. I look forward to the text transcript, too.
I am optimistic about Kapor’s claim that Second Life “needs to evolve and move to a more decentralized structure. Announcements of this decentralization will come from Linden Lab….” I hope this means that Second Life will not be solely housed and served by LL servers. There must be alternative way to lease, buy or otherwise operate Second Life space, and also manage risk [backups, failovers] in proportion to costs. In other words, some users won’t use SL until they have the control that they need to protect their vital interests.
Compare it to a web server. Some need, or feel that they need, their own. Others are comfortable with renting services. Some know that they *must* have a backup, failsafe plan that will keep their SL space operational, while others can afford to live with a less expensive, but less reliable SL space.
On 07.07.08 mooncaine said:
I’m not too keen on leaning my body, with my feet planted, to move around. That would quickly tire my leg and back muscles. Being able to step forward, though, or step back, would be less fatiguing, I suspect. I like the idea of exercise and moving my body around. It’s just the *leaning”, with feet planted, that I don’t think would be good for my body to do for hours a day.
On 07.07.08 Eris said:
Twinity? Been there, done that, walked in very weird straight lines along some kind of invisible isometric track, left again. It made SL seem strangely liberating.
Uhm, when i was at school ‘tossing-off’ meant something quite different to your use of the phrase – although your use of it makes sense both ways.
@ Mooncaine – I think that’s their intention. It really won’t come as a big surprise, they’re prototyping it already with IBM. And while IBM has interests in their own grid behind a firewall, they have a greater interest in selling the consulting services that would arise if SL let people host their own grids. Integration with back-end databases in a firewall-protected environment is the way it’s headed.
@ Alberik – the one thing, however, that we can say for the Lab is that unlike the dot-commers and 99% of today’s social web 2.0 sites, at least they’re making real money and not simply dreaming that if they ‘aggregate eyeballs’ that some day they’ll ‘monetize it’. They’re already monetizing it, and Mitch’s speech was, in my opinion, an attempt to let the community that helped them accomplish this know that they now have bigger fish to fry.
The gold has run out in them thar hills, they’re after oil now.
I thought Mitch’s speech was excellent. I loved the reasoning about voice. We really fought very very hard for voice. For those who are old enough in SL, you might remember the truly early days where we were using skype or gtalk to get by an SL with had only text. It is so cool that LL has listened to customers Evidently there is a chase for better fidelity. The education community is responsible for a significant chunk of revenue to LL so it makes sense that LL listens to them at times. The ’stay the course’ part sounded a little negative to me. I think LL is well aware that competitors are raising their heads out there and there is a quiet exploration of other ‘new’ frontiers such as project wonderland.
On 07.08.08 mooncaine said:
@ Dusan: Thanks for pointing out IBM’s interest in the back end. I hadn’t really thought of that. Makes sense, and is smart, I think.
When asked by educators about SL, I can list quite a few advantages to using SL for some teaching purposes, but I always point out 2 huge flaws: you can’t back up the content you create on your own storage devices, and you are utterly reliant on LL’s servers to be up and accessible to you. That’s a problem for many universities, because you can’t run SL classes to schedule if you can’t assure that SL will be ready when you’ve planned to teach within it. One can only regard it as an optional or supplemental tool, realizing that it might not be there when one takes one’s students online to meet there.
And if your content might be removed merely because of a DMCA claim, without warning, that’s also a problem for universities, and corporate training, too. You can’t have someone yanking your content like that and disrupting your teaching schedules. So having an SL space that can be open only to internal users, with secure access, can help promote the “3D platform” notion, whereas the centralized LL service currently can’t provide these needs reliably.
On 07.08.08 catcotton said:
Well written Dusan. The one thing he touched on that scared the hell out of me;
“Changes to the technical platform and governance needs to evolve and move to a more decentralized structure. Announcements of this decentralization will come from Linden Lab in the coming days, weeks and months.”
[...] yesterday’s keynote by Mitch Kapor the big announcement was met with a yawn, but his comments on needing to decentralize the governance and Grid hinted at [...]
Didn’t take more than a day to get a sense of how many of these comments are being addressed: interoperability between openSim and SL achieved. Meaning:
@mooncaine – ability to host your own sim, use the avatar identity system of SL, move content back and forth but then have a place to store it and back it up (I assume), and be responsible on your own for grid stability. (Always better to have an IT person close at hand to blame rather than a faceless group in California).
@ Moriz – this opens more options for educators, I suppose. I wonder however whether 3D cameras and realistic avatars go very far in the education domain or whether those are more business oriented? Frankly, I think I’d find it a little creepy if my avatar looked like me, but I’d have to try it I guess to see.
Shorter version of Kapor’s speech: The first wave of Second Life, drawing to a close, involved freaky early adopters using SL in bizarre ways. The mainstrem will bring in businesses, museums, colleges, government, etc.
Even shorter version: Let’s get all those messy people out of SL, and populate it by institutions.
What LL will find when they’ve kicked all the people out of SL is that, well, there’s nobody left using it.
@ Mitch – or maybe the freaks are on OpenSim with the ability to teleport back to the main Grid to take a class or go to work in their collaborative 3D offices?
Hmmm….or maybe it’s the other way around – the freaks will be on mainland and all the money will be on OpenSim behind a firewall with the ability to teleport to mainland once they’ve clocked out from work or school at the end of the day?
How confusing. All I want to know is, if Philip teleports from SL to OpenSim, can they refuse entry unless he gets better hair?
On 07.08.08 Rightasrain said:
you all have some interesting conversation going…not sure I can add too much other than a few (perhaps) relevant details:
– Nielsen data seems to match the online hours reported by LL, so looks like the IP traffic from UK to SL. So mystery still is it bots/campers or new users? When/if LL kills popular places I guess we all find out fast enough.
– Not sure I buy increase in revenue coming from inside firewall–unless dem corporate dude charge each other lindos to attend meetings or they hire escorts to support them (not a bad idea actually)
– We are seeing increase in per user/daily transaction value actually. We think this is due to increase sophistication of buyers and that our stuff is better than average. However, our cost to produce this stuff and promote it is also a lot higher yielding lower per unit profit. Basically working harder for less…
– If LL would categorize some of their transaction data we might have a better shot at understanding economic drivers. If I have more energy I would track the the mid band transactions and see if that is growing as fast as the low end stuff.
– Objects have long-ish shelf-life, but at same time the more sophisticated buyers demand constant flow of new stuff (some makers try to do light reworking on their merch but people too sharp now). Word I hear is that only way to get customers in is with a new thing–even though this drives sales of existing merch. So there is some concept of momentum that sustains existing inventory value.
On 07.08.08 Rightasrain said:
inter-grid travel kinda trippy–maybe we can all go to Kpax? Seriously, the inventory issue is tough one.
After some reflection, (maybe not all that much though), I would think that transfer into a world must be tied to trusted creators. So objects must be linked to a certified, perhaps bonded even, creator, who will defend/warranty the authenticity of that object and pay penalites etc if they are not really theirs.
This scheme obviously could also include the owners as well–but it would be more complex I think to track it all down. The Creators are at a slightly higher vantage and could have 3rd party certificates etc.
Given the ebay/vuiton case, it would seem that this is sorta where even the web may be headed.
Chimera – I’m so sorry, but I went one poke too far I’m afraid. Perhaps in time I shall poke and be poked again, until then I am swearing off all widgets and invitations to be someone’s knight.
And please….time and SLURL!
On 07.08.08 Chimera Cosmos said:
Well, at first your reference to SLURL went right by me. But I think you were offering to be available “in world” if I get a live demo going? Thanks–I do hope to, but it’s not definite.
Where do you hang out in SL? Do you have a sim? I suppose I would start out at our new small spot on Jokaydia III by the lighthouse. It’s the lot in the far southwest corner. If we can get out to SL from Inside NSF, it would be around 1:40 or after Washington DC time tomorrow. If you haven’t been to Jokaydia, you might enjoy visiting anyway.
Jokay might be in bed (being in Australia) but she has four sims and lots of Educators from around the world in Residence. And a new Sailing Club on the west side of Jokaydia III (according to http://www.jokaydia.com). Care for a sail?
Cheers, Chimera
P.S. again…when I’m not reviewing proposals for Thurs. and still working on the ppt for tomorrow, I’ll tell you about my conversation with my Anthropology prof neighbor (80 yr old still teaching very cool lady) about the SL panel at the national meeting.
Windows only… no Linux support, and comments in the group claim that Google chose to implement Lively with DirectX, which ties them pretty tightly to Windows. IMHO, a terminally stupid choice if it’s true. Lively is of zero interest to me until I can use it.
[...] mirror reality mash-up, data flowing through gritty city streets or sleek black office towers. As I thought at the time: Google involvement with Multiverse hints at being able to walk through a massively parallel [...]
[...] Google’s going Slippcat on us maybe. If Lively is a social networking play as compared to a virtual world play, then their [...]
On 07.09.08 Stone Semyorka said:
No Mac client and implementation via DirectX show Google is desperate to get into the virtual world game just as quickly as they can. That, in turn, reveals that the future of virtual worlds is anything but dead.
It’s truly unfortunate they have left the creative thinkers out of the box.
On 07.09.08 Eris said:
They’re using DirectX? I won’t hold my breath for a Mac version then.
Sometimes I envy all these choices Windozers seem have and so I fire up XP in BootCamp and suffer the abomination that is Windoze….and then, wonder why i bothered…
The Google name and bank-balance will carry this much further than it might deserve to go, but whether it’ll actually ever get anywhere worthwhile is debatable. But I wish them luck – honest i do!
@ RaR – I don’t think it’s 2.5D. You can fully rotate around (right muse button). However, you’re right, it is more ‘kid-friendly’ than a serious application.
@ Eris – As I posted today, they’re going after advertising. Monetize social spaces. So I don’t see them as making a true virtual world play, rather a social networking one. In some ways, I DO hope they get a bit of traction – think of it as a virtual world orientation experience. Now, if SL would actually MARKET itself, it might be able to hook some of these 3D chatters and attract them to a REAL world. Er, real virtual world?
On 07.09.08 Eris said:
Yup, absolutely Second Life needs to market itself – BUT it needs to have a product worth marketing and right now that’s debatable.
First stage, get a decent and approachable user-interface…hmm, someone should do something about that…u know, like show some initiative?
[...] to choose from Trump Tower apartments or drink Red Bull in their virtual apartments. Thanks to this writer for pointing out there are indeed plans for the virtual space to bring in some dough for the [...]
For sure Adz! And with Linden planning to sell the ability to change your avatar name to a name of your choosing, you’re dead on! Hmmmm….I’ll take Paris Hilton I think, who will you become?
[...] messaging might be falling deaf ears, or Lively ears anyways, swamped under the giddiness over that cartoon chat competitor Lively from our friends at Google. At least they’re not Vivaty, which came out on Facebook [...]
[...] Contestants will have the chance to present their UI designs to the judges and parry questions from the incisive panel during an in-world event on July 22nd, 2:00 PM SLT. 800,000L in prizes will be awarded once the winners are selected. [...]
Am I correct in assuming that the event will be open to the general public, as well as the contestants and judges?
On 07.11.08 Stan Rawley said:
Too bad I didn’t hear about this sooner I have lots of ideas and think about this all the time. I’m an interface designer so this is right up my alley.
Shame more people didn’t know about the contest, it would have been a better use of the prize money. I mean no offense to the entrants just that there would have been more available options had people known.
What an impressive collection of finalists. Looking thru them, I have to agree with Pias to a degree. A “dream design” could take the best overall interface and add the best functionality concepts from other designs. My vote goes to Rheta for an overall design and functionality concept – clean, powerful and purposeful. I also love that its noobie intuitive yet not strictly a noobie design – a concept clearly learned from Apple’s philosophy that even powerful applications can be intuitive.
However, concepts like buttons that initially take you thru their own tutorial, WORN and FAVORITES tabs in inventory, and likely a host of other gems could cleanly be integrated into Rheta’s (or any!) design, making a good idea truly revolutionary.
And Dusan… If LL doesn’t pick this up, any chance that it could get designed by someone and be an optional client for purchase. I know that kind of defeats the purpose of being noob-friendly if its an interface you have to buy. However, multitudes of devoted SL users would gladly pay to have an interface like the ones you’ve gathered here. And that, perhaps, would send the strongest message of all to LL:)
Thanks for your vision, Dusan, and for putting your $ where your mouth is.
[...] Writer’s informed us about a film made in SL to raise money for cancer research and the educational institutions that spread their wings in Second [...]
pmog was was interested because it has some game elements but it seemed aimed squarely at the niche geek crowd. weblin was a never-ran – and by that i mean that i never could get the thing to run. and both of them were generally inferior.
this company came out of the blue and flanked them. it remains to be seen if their product sucks as bad as the other two but that’s a pretty low bar.
On 07.16.08 kamikaze junko said:
from what i saw in the sl/metanomics video there IS a connection between avatars and content – they are putting their world (which includes site specific content) on top of sites. its interesting, seemed to flow very well and was very direct. :0
I think Lively has a future, however it can take time, especially with their competition. What makes them unique, for now, is that you can embed your chat rooms in a website. But their lack of a reason to use Lively, except to just “chat,” does hurt at the moment, but because it’s new, many people are trying it.
With no real purpose except just to chat with people, it’s not much different than Microsoft Virtual Chat that I used years ago. And the only reason that was used so much then is because it was new to everyone.
It’s a good sign that at least some content seems to be able to be uploadable to Google. I can only wonder when this will be allowed.
Lively might still have a chance to compete with, well, whatever… we’ll have to wait and see. Yes, ugly avatars/content on very slow and heavy platform are just the marks of something new and bright that has just been launched — we SL residents are all used to it!
In fact, I believe that the early adopters of Lively will mostly be SL residents. We’re the only ones in the market that are used to subquality content, slow development time, waiting years for features, and still enjoy developing content — in SL. However, if Google is positioning itself to attract just the type of users with a very low expectancy, they’ll only be able to attract SL residents… and for that, Lively has to become a real alternative to SL, which it isn’t, and even with 200 developers at Lively (many of which content creators!), it’ll take a few years to be at that stage.
(And obviously SL will not stagnate during those years)
So it’s another race against time?… Well, Google has a huge advantage over Linden Lab: infinite resources, and no pressure to make Lively a profitable product. Almost none of Google’s products are profitable (except for AdSense/AdWords, and possibly Checkout). So they can afford to wait 2 or 3 years until Lively becomes a serious player in the VW market. Linden Lab cannot afford that — they have to continue to be profitable.
We’ll see. But the images you show are definitely interesting!
The competition in the 3D chat space keeps heating up. Look at the new XBox – avatars. Sony’s Home – avatars. Small World. IMVU. And Raph is approaching beta for Metaplace after delays and frustrations. (OK, it’s way more than chat but still, small worlds). We still haven’t seen a true “world” yet – although I keep wondering when Google earth will add avatars – see their 3D cities, at least it’s a shift towards a mirror world (though with that, I see a mirror world as quite different from an immersive one, but time will tell).
Linden needs to accelerate HTML on a prim. The ability to watch movies, surf the Web and perhaps even play games from within a world adds a richer social dimension. Not that we all want to sit at home watching TV of course. For collaboration and building branded environments, for embedding games and whatnot, and for not needing to worry about all that smut and stuff that Lively is trying to clean out (hey, we dealt with mature content long ago, it’s Lively’s turn) – HTML would go a long way to allowing both richer media in world but also importing legacy content.
Race against time, sure – but it always will be, I suppose. Lively and all those mini spaces are training wheels. Second Life is still the high-powered hog (yeah) on the block.
On 07.17.08 Eris said:
I have another 2 words for them – Google SafeSearch
[...] Writer’s informed us about a film made in SL to raise money for cancer research and the educational institutions that spread their wings in Second [...]
Gwyneth, it is increasingly apparent to me that I’ve been missing out by not reading your blog. You are wise.
Here is my take on Lively and its users (of course, I may change my mind as soon as this afternoon): It is a cute animated interface that will replace text messaging and swallow up the SMS crowd.
We at Koinup are looking with really great interest at the Lively development……
Obviosly our approach is based on user generated contents, photography and machinima…….
So, we read with a few excitements your post about the Beta of Lively Contents Tools…..
as Gwineth we are wondering which is the exact target of the Lively project…..which is the main aim of the Google Virtual World…..
While waiting for more precise answers, we have launched a channel on the website for sharing rooms, snapshots and avatars from Lively
( http://www.koinup.com/in-lively/ )
Joe Miller promised that we will have web integration before the end of this year. I cannot point to the article, I forgot. I think I read it in Business week.
Thanks for picking this up!
Just a small correction in case anyone comes looking for me. My SL name is Arwenna Stardust (not Arweena *smiles).
Thanks
On 07.18.08 Jacek Antonelli said:
“Well – hard to say if the results are, well, because of the tools or because of the artist. What’s clear, is they’re mesh based and look kind of sloppy sculpts… The models in this example don’t look much like 3DS. Again, they’re more Plopp than Maya.”
Welcome to the wonderful world of low-polygon modelling! Judging by the screenshots, the models are actually quite good work; the artist definitely has some skill.
It’s difficult to create a complex object from only a few hundred polygons. I’d be surprised if the purple lady had more than 200 polys, or the mech more than 300 polys. For reference, the SL avatar mesh has about 4000 polys at its highest detail level.
Sure, they look pretty crude next to the 15,000-poly characters on your Xbox360, but a more fair comparison would be with some of the games of yester-year, like American McGee’s Alice (http://tinyurl.com/6qx6xc) or MechWarrior IV (http://tinyurl.com/66pzcf)
As a 3D artist (one of the many hats I wear), it’s pretty interesting that you could import arbitrary meshes into Lively. Sculpties just can’t compare to the efficiency of a well-crafted low-poly model. (Not that most models we would see in SL would be either well-crafted *or* low-poly…)
[...] they know well – the Second Life user interface and its many, um, features. The quality of the entries was incredible. Visit my previous post where you can link through to the full submissions, or for a [...]
[...] could be considered very timely that Second Life Resident, Dusan Writer, launched a UI redesign contest in recent weeks. The contest’s main goal (and criteria for judgement) is to redesign the [...]
IMO, nobody knows (because how can they) how this is all going to pan out.
The reason these development agencies pulled away from Second Life?
It’s not because the platform doesn’t work for branding and marketing. It actually does – you just have to have the right strategy. They pulled away because they a) more or less exhausted the number of clients willing to be taken in-world and more importantly b) the vast majority of the campaigns they developed were strategically flawed. They blamed the platform – in reality, they’re largely to blame.
Google Lively: Let us pray the same flawed campaigns developed in SL are not replicated in Lively.
“In the meantime, when I want a place where you can chat, be cute, solve puzzles, socialize, make stuff, customize my appearance, I’ll head to Loco Pocos to see what Millions of Us and ESC and all those other gurus of virtual worlds SHOULD have built instead of the stumbling ruins that were CSI with their 100 signs and their obvious clues.”
I hear you, Dusan. Join me down at the pub, we can cry in our beer together.
Indeed now is the winter of our discontent, but keep your chin up brother – if two wrongs don’t make a right maybe the odds are better with the hundreds that are “emerging”.
On 07.18.08 kamikaze junko said:
if you want to break it down, let’s look at the following:
> mmos – entertainment, identity, status
> social networks: communication, identity, entertainment
> virtual worlds – identity, entertainment
> rocketon – customizable avatar (identity), chat (cummunication), games and meta-games (entertainment)
So while there may be no “real purpose” as you describe it, it seems at least as purposeful as some of the existing worlds, networks – and it turned my basic browsing experience into something that it never was before – social. granted, it may not be for everyone. there are so many new and existing me-too virtual worlds out there and this is not one of them, in my opinion.
[...] De New World Notes nos llega el anuncio de que el 22 de julio se presentarán las seis propuestas de los finalistas de nuevos interfases que se llevó a cabo en las pasadas semanas. Tanto los laboratorios Linden como Dusan Writer (y muchos de nosotros) entendemos que la interfase puede ser mejorada así que será interesante ver las propuestas y presenciar la interacción entre los jueces y los proponentes. Para ver un anticipo de las propuestas ver el blog de Dusan Writer’s Metaverse [...]
On 07.19.08 Digado | Mapping the Metaverse said:
“Is anyone actually asking for branded spaces?”
What is this, consumer oriented thinking?! That is not what the metaverse is about! Its about 3 dimensional thinking!
Seriously though – that is of course the multi-million dollar question regarding any sort of (virtual world) marketing: What is the added value for the consumer (from the consumer perspective!), can this value be converted to value for the brand (preferably in a sustainable manner and not just a 1 time ‘trick’) and lastly does the result of this equation outweigh the advantages (vs risks) in traditional forms of advertising/branding.
I’m sure MoU and ESC are still working very hard to find the answers to these questions, and consistently found the results in Second Life lacking. By making their client accessible through flash and adding games they lowered the ‘risk’ and upped the ‘value’ for a very specific market. However, at the same time – and if I’m reading you right this might be the cause for your ‘concerns’ – slowly creeping towards that ‘proven concept’ formula, making the innovative pioneers slowly slide back into the blob of ’social media’ marketing masses.
Of course, from their perspective its just easier to find new clients for new ventures into something those clients already perceive to be at the very bleeding edge, giving them time to adopt to REAL innovation as we see it
Raph Koster, meeting with them to review ESC’s contribution to coming out of alpha and into closed beta, and trying to assure them that Metaplace has overcome all the challenges that have led to significant delays.
You think that Google Lively is not about consumer oriented thinking?
On 07.19.08 Naoki Yifu said:
Saturday being my day of catching up with feeds, came across the “Electric Sheep The Company”, “Roadmap to the Virtual Worlds,” and “Google Gets Into Virtual Worlds(Technology Review)”.
With all the buzz around the 2.5/3D space. Seems everyones getting funding, all one has to do is a) work on some type of embeddable system allowing avatar customization with b) brand-ability c) a chat feature to boot and or d) some new form of interconnectivity or other bells & whistles. Now that GOOG is in the space, will we be seeing more crop up? I think so …got to love the “me too’s”
But honestly, what am I really complaining about here? Sometimes it’s best to leave people to their own devices.
Granted, I’m feeling the frustration with the current perception from the current crop of VW creative agencies, the outsiders(mostly the media and ill-informed about the true dynamics of SL). Wherever I look there are people taking dumps. Residents are no different either, I’ve been guilty of it at some point or another… way back when, but it’s really getting old to the point of, where is this all taking us?
I don’t believe that any of these small-worlds will have a direct impact on SL in the long run. They fit differing market segments. Is SL the holy-grail? Highly unlikely, but I believe the platform will play a huge and important role, OpenSim init is a step in that direction — we are talking utility.
Even though I may not agree fully with the direction the space is currently going — VW creative agencies came in setup shop only to move on to other worlds, along with the glowing press coverage. They still do have a business to run and clients to service. Have to think about that cash-flow. In that regard, it seems the low hanging fruit are in small-worlds these days. Let’s not forget though they weren’t in it for the residents to start, that much is visible.
When it rains it pours they say. There is a storm coming, prepare yourself.
—
I must say I admired your init with fielding the UI redesign contest. I hope M takes you up on looking over and considering the entries.
Actually, I don’t get one point… Is brands in Virtual Worlds just a question of marketing ?
“But the true metaverse isn’t ready for us yet, they say. You can’t build brand experiences in these places. You’ll never scale to millions of users.”
I run a kind of smaller MOU or ESC, with a friend, in Europe… We are not talking about marketing with our clients (and they are global leaders too, we have some in Europe ).
We are talking about e-Learning, Knowledge Management, InWorld banking (for real ), Collaborative work, Merchandising (How-to, not products…)… and we don’t need millions of users to do that ! Actually, Second Life and Open Sim are really cool RIGHT NOW for doing these kind of things.
Virtual Worlds should not be marketing focused, which is the short way to get some revenues from brands.
I love your post and I share your vision on Lively (for example) but I think you are really upset ?!?
There’s a season after winter and I think it’s not talking about marketing. By the way, there will be many other seasons after this one and other winters for sure
[...] interfaces para Second Life, y hay una recuperación dando resultados muy interesantes, el blog de Dusan Writer Metaverse, es la que nos informa mejor de [...]
“You think that Google Lively is not about consumer oriented thinking?”
I haven’t seen it yet – Obviously Google is in a position where it doesn’t need to generate a profitable platform by itself, in fact, it doesn’t really have to be profitable at all if it gets people to sign up for a Google account so that’s fine as a business model, but as for consumer value? They couldn’t get passed ‘the level of chatting on the internet’ – and we both know the market offering this already is so crowded that if it was anyone but Google behind the platform, it probably wouldn’t have gotten a second glance.
Even though Dusan Writer’s post on the explosion of small worlds and how they’ve sold out the promise of virtual worlds was a rant, it clearly described the issues at hand. The virtual landscape is splintering, increasingly proprietary, and built for…
On 07.21.08 Eris said:
“Real life will never be the same….”
…for those of us affluent enough to own computers (or consoles) with graphics systems onboard powerful enough to access these new worlds.
Just when we’re at the point where anyone can buy a net-capable computer for a couple of hundred $/£/€ we’re back to the old twin-track?
Even though Dusan Writer’s post on the explosion of small worlds and how they’ve sold out the promise of virtual worlds was a rant, it clearly described the issues at hand. The virtual landscape is splintering, increasingly proprietary, and built for…
Aren’t you getting tired of that Gartner quote without anyone ever wondering why 80% of the internet population would be in virtual worlds, in what way (jut an account, actively using, visiting occasionally?) – I know I am.
If I were a research agency right now, I’d make some ridiculous ‘prediction’ like “the 3D internet will have more hours spend than the 2D internet in 2013″. The free links/publicity couldn’t be better and when it gets to 2013, just rephrase: ‘hours spend in the gaming/entertainment industry of the 2D internet VS 3D internet’.
Without actually reading anything, and from just looking at the pictures yet (first impression) – I think 3, 4 and 5 pop out the most to me as UIs I’d be glad to work with.
Now I’ll get to reading all this text and information.
[...] I mentioned in a previous post, Second Life® entrepreneur, Dusan Writer, recently held a contest in which Residents were challenged with the task of redesigning the Second Life® Viewer with the [...]
This piece of Duranske’s is disgraceful. It waves all the usual silly magic wands in terribly misleading ways, making it seem like there are really “1.2 million people” actively involved in SL (the number of people who actually spent a dollar or more is 380,000 in the last 30 days), making it seem like 3-D worlds are “inevitable” or something “all these people are going to do” just because he needs a provactive topic for an op-ed piece and swagger around with completely fake claims that nobody at the WSJ is in a position to check. 3D worlds as distinct from games have terribly little marketshare by contrast (Wow has more than 12 million, Habbo has zillions, etc.).
Just because interesting things happen to people in VWs and they are a certain niche and market doesn’t mean the entire world will be overthrown by them. This is just premise that Duranske waves around as “indispensable” to would-be clients.
And worst of all, Duranske perpetuates these scare-mongering stories of the “Ponzi scheme” of Ginkos. I’ve exhaustively countered that just because something that behaves more like a credit union or a high-yield investment plan for 3 years before it acquires fraudulent characteristics is not something you can characterize as a “Ponzi”.
People get bilked by investors all the time. Buyer beware. Look at all those people who bought at Bear Stearns. Real life is littered with bad investments where no crime is found and where no one is prosecuted. You’d have to have more elaborate law to make this a crime. That doesn’t mean that real theft occurred as a moral violation; it did. But real theft in real life that is beyond morality and goes into legal violation simply has to have more criteria to it.
Rather than constantly fakely trying this case in the media and making wild Internet lawyer claims about it, Duranske should have really attempted prosecution of that case or others if he really thought it was justiciable. I don’t think he’d be able to. All those hookers and skaters and whatnot put money in thinking they’d get high yields and *were notified of the risks that they might not get their money back at all in clearly written notecards in every terminal*. Pointing out these facts should not be grounds to declare me as some Ponzi booster, which Duranske does over and over again; it should be grounds for caution to all people not to trust Internet lawyers any more than they trust Internet bankers.
On 07.23.08 Prokofy Neva said:
I’m laughing my ass off at this, Dusan, because you geeks rant and rave all the time about hating silos and walled gardens, but then when commercial companies break free and create lots and lots of little closed worlds freely, to suit their purposes, which is supposedly what they are supposed to be able to do, you bitch that they aren’t all hooked up into one big One World. You and Gwyn both. You are secretly in fact flogging a giant Walled Garden in which everybody is supposed to be connected in a big commune. But…people don’t want to be connected. So let them alone.
[...] clearly what is important about virtual worlds and where these lite weight worlds fall short (see Dusan Writer) and how they can in no way realize virtual worlds’ potential as innovative disruptive [...]
[...] OpenSim is alpha still. But there is an immense pride and excitement to being there and contributing in these ground breaking days. The OpenSim Wiki is the most complete source for information on OpenSim but there is a nice tutorial here on White’s Virtual White blog on how to get your own standalone openSim server up and running in Windows Vista (hat tip to Dusan Writer) [...]
[...] creation tools are already undergoing a private beta test and you can see some of the results here: http://dusanwriter.com/?p=724. Based on the images of the initial results, Lively has a long way to go before attaining the level [...]
I agree Dusan,I also am irritated with being, “flooded with invitations and blinking banners, I’m enticed to “create my own avatar” and then discover that what they really mean is add hair to the little cartoon guy that I can call me.” Better yet is the “virtual good” I am promoted to buy, or right click, save the jpeg/gif, and email for free.
It saddens me to see that the “leaders” in virtual worlds are so miss directed, and guiding those new/inexperienced to 3d on the web towards short term “highs” with long term “what the “. How refugees from Second Life can put “Metaverse” in a post, blog, or company bio and they are the experts in 3d on the web. What real applications have these people built for the “open” 3d web? What can MoU or ESC build for someone not wanting to sit in a private playground? I have talked with representatives at both companies more than once and although they say they are “platform agnostic” they don’t say they build for the “open” web. What is worse is the growing number of “yes men/women” to these people that have not a clue but their names in the papers a lot.
Let the brands get bled by the development shops that charge for each VW presence. If they are dumb enough to not do extensive homework, they deserve it. A well known person in this space said, “It is like watching companies build sites that work only on intranets, with assets and functionality that can’t be re-used when it becomes the Internet.”
Regardless of One big world or 10k small ones, it is still in closed platforms on closed IP. Open-Sim is a step in the right direction on broken feet.
Let virtual worlds choke in commercial candy, social networks, and 3d chat. The Metaverse, like the web, is so much more than that. What most have seen so far is only a fraction of what is coming or thought possible.
Great blog and good insight. My first visit here, but not my last.
[...] found this call for papers on Dusan Writer’s Metaverse blog: Charles Wankel and Shaun Malleck have put out a call for scholarly articles for a [...]
[...] recently argued that Google’s Lively was a play on trying to monetize social media, something that the [...]
On 07.25.08 Prokofy Neva said:
Dusan, this sort of thing is tripe: “bring us a social networking system that works, that embeds in the Web, that lets us keep our groups organized and lets us tag our friend lists.”
Nobody is asking for that, really. That is, you are asking for it as some kind of PC geek thing, but it’s not a mass demand. Trust me, if somebody has a yen for a social media network, they go on Facebook. It need not be “embedded” in SL or even related to it, any more than my favourite restaurant and my favourite friend’s house have to be embedded in my office building. It’s ok to have first, second, third, four places, real and virtual, without all this silly connectivity.
I also don’t need to drag my friends (fake friends from socmedia) everywhere with me, either.
Why tag your friends? If you have so many that you’d need to tag them, maybe they aren’t friends, and maybe you don’t need to collect them so badly — they’ll just surface. You know, Scoble was right, “Your friends will find you.” I just went on Plurk and I added a few people to watch (Scoble was one because of the value of his friends’ list to easily mind) but you know something? if there is a new bunch 1,000 fake Internet friends pulled out of the sea for their oddball qualities or interest level or shared activity, and not that old bunch from Twitter, all to the good. Variety is the spice of life.
yet let us move through different expressions of 3D environments with more ease than needing to sign up to 1,000 worlds and create 1,000 avatars.
another minority use-case yen. There aren’t any 1,000 worlds. I had to make uh…like 3 avatars lately. Because, well, there aren’t the worlds. It was pretty easy to name them all “Prokofy” and put blonde hair and jeans on them. Look, it’s not the hard thing you imagine. I can leave my office, and walk to the restaurant, and see a different set of people. I don’t even have to call the office on my cell, you know?
Wordpress did me in this morning as comments to this post were somehow truncated. Back up and running now but apologies for the mess-up. I dunno what that button was I clicked, but I shouldn’t have clicked it.
In any case, I posted the following:
I’m very often vague, and very often change my opinions on things, I find a perverse thrill I guess in not being stuck in one world view and never varying from it. So maybe I’m less than clear with what I mean by stuff, so I thought I’d throw out today’s thinking on things (with the right to change my mind later):
- By social networks and embedding on the Web, I don’t mean that SL should be embedded in Facebook or mySpace or wherever. What I mean is I’d like to see some Web-based tools. I said give us social networking tools that work, and embed them in the Web. I didn’t say embed them in Facebook. I don’t LIKE Facebook, I don’t belong to Plurk, I don’t Twitter, I don’t HAVE any friends. BUT, I would like to be able to communicate with people more easily, and I would like to be able to do that in other ways than endless notecards written and saved and then copied and dragged over while trying to scan my fairly scant friends list to highlight the right people to send the notecard to. Let’s say I’m organizing an event, or trying to take care of customers…I’d like to be able to e-mail them from Outlook maybe, or G-mail or wherever – a social/contact tool that’s Web based and is easy and lets me take care of customers and keep in touch with people and save these communications other than sorting notecards.
- Tagging friends – why is this so awful? I have some people on my list that like to know about events, others who are customers, and others who like to go dancing. Why is it some sort of geek-infested idea to say that I’d like to be able to sort my contact list? I’d like to be able to look at the friends list and quickly filter customers, send out a notice, whatever, and I shouldn’t have to pay Hippo or whatever to do that.
These things may be tripe? I don’t know. They seem simple to me. I would like it to be easier to talk to people, keep in touch, send out a group e-mail to say “gonna be late for the event” or whatever it is.
As for interop – well, that’s another post. What I know is there are really very few worlds right now. And maybe there will always be very few worlds. Second Life is a world, and I don’t really want to be running around Warcraft with my avatar, or Lively for that matter. I’d like some simple stuff if it turns out to be true that say, some companies want to privately host their servers for security reasons, and some schools want to hold classes on THEIR own servers that have been tweaked or had additional code built for whatever reason, and then the community in SL is still ticking along – I just think it would be nice if I didn’t have to log out, sign up, sign in, log out, whatever. I don’t need my inventory to go with me, and I could even live with my avatar looking different. But if I could TP without too much friction from the Grid to other 3D environments, great.
However, I’m not entirely convinced that this wish is worth it. Because in having that wish, it opens up all kinds of other issues. I’m not convinced it SHOULD be easy to move from grid to grid like we surf the Web. Having said that, the idea of interoperability seems to have merit so long as it doesn’t dilute the individual worlds, but instead makes the management of our identities and movement easier and give ME control rather than the registration whims of a collision of different log-ins and approaches.
Which brings me to walled gardens I guess. Which I confuse with magic circles. And that, plus wanting to know why I’m geeky might be posts for another day.
On 07.25.08 Eloise said:
Whether or not any of the ideas from your contest get adopted, they’ve done one thing for those interested in the continuance of Second Life: They’ve made us think.
In fact I have a blog post on the subject bubbling away somewhere, even though it’s getting to be way too late!
Prok has been provoked to think too. Of course it would be too simple to enter the contest and express her ideas upfront the same as everyone else. No, as is Prok’s way, she’s sat back and poured scorn and vitriol on everyone else’s ideas.
You have to also appreciate that Prok’s ideas are right, always right and anyone who disagrees with her is wrong. It’s ironic that one of her favourite attempted put-downs is “Do you appreciate other people might not agree with you?”
You may not have friends (they’re your words after all, although I suspect you do yourself down), but after being attacked by Prok you have allies. Oh, and probably an appearance on the next FIC list if she publishes one soon enough or you remain on her radar.
Whatever the outcome of the contest, congratulations on a thought-provoking concept.
It’s always an eye-opening and thought-provoking experience to read your blog posts. Thanks for the cognitive workout and the chance to add my thoughts…
Having been “inSL” for more than two years now, I’ve seen and weathered a good chunk of the metaversal evolution. Like real life, SL has its moments of sheer excitement, wonder, and awe as well as frustration, anger, disappointment, even panic, and I ain’t giving up on it anytime soon. I am part of this virtual world–embedded and woven in its fabric–not merely a bunch of pixels on the screen.
Maybe that elusive “something” you sense permeating the grid (besides lag) is a kind of virtual viriditas–an essence that binds physical hardware and software with human creativity and imagination, transforming both into a rather new and undefined quintessence. It is there, but one must be quiet enough to actually find it, and it is worth seeking.
Our forays into virtual worlds lead us into uncharted territories. Day by day, we struggle to define who and what we are, a task not easily qualified or quantified. Nevertheless, we are here and we continue to seek meaning for this place. We oscillate among hope, idealism, pragmatism, pessimism, and even sometimes despair, but we keep coming back to give it another try. An adventure it is, tripe it is not…
Trying to understand the tugs between Dusan and Prokofy finally allowed me to grok what Dusan has been talking about with ‘magic circle’ and perhaps ‘augmentation versus immersion’. What I am thinking is there is a mind function that instantiates a world view, like when a kid has a couple dolls, toy animals, or action figures and goes about playing with them by imagining they each have a personality, a role, and a he enters that world he has defined with them and plays. Is this the magic circle? I am guessing we all have relative abilities and proclivities to allow ourselves to immerse.
A lot of tourists may go to the same places I have been too, but they certainly may not experience what I experience. We all may be looking at the same painting in a gallery, but how it affects us will certainly not be the same.
Just because something is tripe to one person but an compelling to another is not a usable metric until we have a way to ground the issue.
The Prok example of not needing friend’s house and restaurant embedded in the office building makes a good point. But it cuts a little the wrong way when calling “all the silly connectivity”. Being able to wear the same set of clothes as you go from one to the other, use a common currency, language set, and many other things that “connect” one place with another are being taken for granted. And once you eat that meal at a restaurant, you probably want it to stay in your digestive system as you move to the theatre. And when in that theatre, you probably want the actors to stay in their characters, and not stop every few moments to tell you “this is all fiction, we are not really these characters”.
Maybe you are a vested resident or maybe you are simply a tourist that runs in, takes a snapshot, and runs to the next thing just to say they’ve been there. If you are really allowing yourself to fully BE somewhere, of course you want to treat it as real and reinforce those connections.
[...] Life blogger Dusan Writer has written a detailed article on the impact he believes brands have had on virtual worlds and the trend toward smaller virtual [...]
On 07.26.08 Prokofy Neva said:
Dusan, you’re so FIC. One of the surest signs of FIC is accusing me of being one. I didn’t “get invited” to this group. It’s an open group on the Internet in on the Meet-Up site. Anyone can just sign up for it. It’s on the Internet. How can you find out about it? Well, I knew none of these people, and had nothing in common with them, and some of them actively dislike me, but two years ago, I read about it on a Sheep blog or something (the founder Jerry used to be in the Electric Sheep Country) They had a meeting or two in SL itself but seem to prever to meet in Brooklyn or the Lower East Side, there’s no accounting for taste.
Yes, New York, is a big urban center that tends to attract people working on interesting things and tends to have meetings like this. In fact, some of the people in this meeting transplanted from Canada to work on an interesting project in this media capital of the world. It’s how life works.
It’s different than the FIC concept within SL, where the Lindens artificially try to create something that forms organically in RL by trying to constantly give a boost to their friends, through SL Views, Showcase, SL Certified, SL Devs, etc. etc. New York never had to invite 8 interesting people all expense paid to its shores to get started on being interesting and promote the people it likes. New York never had to select a few dozen of its special friends and only give them top coverage in the media to make sure visitors saw “the right things”. It just happened. I’m familiar with the Canadian intellectual’s lament of being “second city” etc. etc. having studied in Canada. I can only say: make your own Metaverse Meetup that is the envy of the Metarati, you certainly have plenty of your share of interesting VW people.
BTW, if you were looking for groups to join on Facebook with the word “Metaverse” in them, this same “Metaverse Meet-up” thingie would come up, open to join.
You can either use the same pass code everywhere on these throwaway social media sites of which there are millions — and there is no money on them so who cares if someone hacks your account? — or you can…gasp…ask them to resend you your password or reset it using their automatic features.
I guess I could do better on the rest of this post if it were boiled down and made more coherent; I suspect you are merely meandering to a point in which you can’t concede there are avatar rights and are demanding interoperability as a form of security of avatar rights, but avatar rights are human rights, and should reside in meat-world constitutions, not in code.
@Prok
Hmmm. I think the “well not really” thing was meant as it sounds “no, Prok is not FIC”. If you actually think I’m pouting about not being there, um….well, OK. Geez, it’s true what they said – irony really is dead. I’ll be more careful next time.
I explain what the pass code issue is, for ME, and I suppose I’m different somehow, in my own mind anyways. But something I don’t understand is why when it comes to technology you seem to think it’s fine that we should need to do some work for it. Easy technology may be an oxymoron but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be desirable. You want the new user orientation to be better, why can’t the rest of the Web. Why is it that it’s fair to decry friction within Second Life but when it comes to trying to make the rest of the management of our Web experiences easier it’s a non-starter?
I have no idea how to respond to what you guess is the point of the post. You conclude without reading that I can’t concede there are avatar rights and then conclude that I probably want to secure them. So your conclusion is, um, I don’t think avatars have rights but I support interoperability to protect those rights that I don’t believe they have.
As far as believing that avatar rights are human rights and should reside in meat-world rather than code, then I suppose the same is true of objects. They’re property and should reside in law rather than code, correct? So both my avatar and me, the content creator, should call our lawyers is the idea?
You’re wrong about what I conclude.
@ Tateru: I disagree with the analogy although I suppose I agree with the rest of it, with a particular focus on the fact that my avatar is also the way in which I’m able to interpret locations and their written and unwritten rules and code.
My avatar is a representation of those things, but implying that it’s like a shirt denies that the avatar extends beyond how I appear in a space. A shirt makes me look a certain way in the world, is something I invested in, but it doesn’t represent anything else, including my relational claims in the space and what I’m arguing is also the vehicle through which I carry the written and unwritten contracts and values by which the space accommodates me.
In your analogy, crossing the border from one space to another isn’t about the avatar, because that’s just a shirt, unless the shirt itself signals location, action and choices to others, and is the recipient of the same.
My wider point however, isn’t whether the avatar is a shirt or has rights or carries a passport, although those things are in some way a component – my wider issue is that the idea of interoperability is being driven by code, and that the coders are offloading the responsibility for the policies within these spaces by saying “we’re not worlds”. I don’t want the coders running so far ahead of policy that they then say “oops, sorry, too late, the code wasn’t built to accommodate that”.
It’s not the shirt that’s the issue, it’s whether the worlds will be properly constructed to let me know what their dress code is, with sufficient flexibility and transparency for both nudist colonies and black tie affairs.
On 07.26.08 Tateru Nino said:
Sorry about the incompleteness of the analogy. If I refer to your RL body, instead of your RL clothes then people generally get horribly confused in the main.
As for worlds. Can we define ‘world’ for the sake of this discussion, before we try to decide whether something is (or should be) a world or not? It seems a bit pointless otherwise.
[...] my perspective (and it is solely MINE) I welcome the Small Worlds, as these worlds will drive new immediate revenue’s to companies on both sides of the [...]
I’m not sure any of those definitions apply because while perhaps not as confusing as the clothes/real body analogy, I don’t mean when I use the term world when I refer to virtual space as being parallel to THE world. I say this because although the world has spaces in which there are norms, codes, laws and cultures with which I interact and which inform my choices, there are also spaces in which these things are not present.
And I know the definition of this has been argued endlessly by other far more capable minds than my own. For most people it really is as simple as what Prok says: it’s a space, it has people, and there’s drama (the latter maybe not tongue-in-cheek at all, because drama implies that there is something beyond just people in a place that causes it).
In defining a world versus a platform, however, I’m going with the definition that a platform is the code that enables representations and interactions with them and that’s pretty much it. The world arises when norms, limitations and policy is combined with this ability to enable representations and interactions to create a space in which my ability to make choices and enact them is influenced by the design of these decisions: to have commerce or not, to enable object permissions or not, to have a governance model of some kind, to deploy a terms of service, whatever – the list is endless and is partly why I posted at such tiring length, to make the point that these things are subtle as well as obvious.
Now, as I say, far better minds than mine have grappled with this issue of what a virtual world is. The word “world” is not analogous to the real one. But certainly something becomes a world when the code is extended past display (the shirt) and into policy, or if policy is too wonky, when the code is extended with decisions that people make that influence my ability to make choices.
I’m taking for granted by the way that the code, or the platform, enables what I consider almost “costs of entry”: the space is persistent, more than one person can be in the space at a time, and the space provides a sense of locality of some sort, perhaps like the tree that Prok refers to.
Arguments over whether that space needs to be 3D or 2.5D or even 2D don’t seem relevant to me, except if you split hairs over what ’sense of locality’ means – if it doesn’t feel like a place, then it probably isn’t one, it’s a Web site.
I’m also not entirely sure whether we need a definition of avatar, although obviously there needs to be a connection to “being in the space” – Lively has a concurrency limit, but you can still be in a Lively room past concurrency, it’s just that your avatar doesn’t appear – are you “in” the virtual space if your avatar doesn’t rez?
So before I go on with my next post I’ll leave it like this:
- A platform is the code that creates a persistent location in which there is a sense of place, and where one or more person can be at a time.
- A world is the extension of this code through any means which establishes a layer of restriction on what can be done in that location. For example, through additions to the code (commerce, identity, permissions, etc), to governance (terms of service, codes of conduct, law), or to actions by the individual hosting the platform.
Finally, while restriction sounds limiting I don’t mean it that way. Restrictions can be appended based on the idea of encouraging or allowing possibilities – the possibility for commerce, for example, or the possibility of creating a safe space by restricting membership.
OK. Well. Let me call it my working definition with the right to append.
On 07.27.08 Tateru Nino said:
Aren’t restrictions inextricable? Some come from the limitations of underlying technology, some from physics and all that, some are from the necessity of the underlying operator’s need to stay in business.
Of course, other restrictions are *chosen*, and in the face of some of the unavoidable limitations, there are a number of possible paths that can be chosen. Currency, for example, is commonly selected as a limiting or barrier device (either as a fiat, or as a gold-standard – or occasionally as a fiat-gold-standard currency, depending on what limitation is being addressed).
I confess I’m not convinced yet that the definitions of world vs platform above don’t have a majority overlap. Hmm.
How about ‘Environment’ instead of ‘World’? That’s the traditional term (the ‘World’ term is more of a marketing slang).
OK, sure, I see your point. And maybe we’re agreeing in a sort of round-about way. I’m willing to call it an environment, but that also leads me, by the mistake of taking an analogy too literally, into thinking of a 3D space as being more a “place” than a “place with rules” and maybe that’s because I associate environments with a spectrum ranging from a clearing in the woods to a shopping mall, although I suppose both have rules and norms, it’s just the source that’s different.
But I still feel this is important, this need I have to parse the language, because in the process of coding an environment at some point it moves from being a platform into something more. I’m willing to acknowledge that a platform can be coded simply to make a space, but I’m trying to point out that at some point that code is appended with decisions, in particular decisions about the underlying operator’s need to stay in business, and that as soon as these decisions are made they intersect with the complex ownerships and rights that I have which are represented through the ’shirt’ of my avatar and its ability to perform choices.
If we code the platform and say “look, it’s just a platform, it’s not a world” then my question is two-fold:
1) are you sure you’re not either ignoring or off-loading the range of decisions that eventually make that platform an environment or world, and by doing that are you sure you’re not neglecting to build something into the code that will later allow a range of choices and transparency, and
2) who WILL make these decisions, because I’m assuming that somehow we’re supposed to leave it to all the individual platform owners. If this is the case, and the philosophy is to let the individual platform owners decide, then I’d argue that the code should be crafted in a way that gives consideration for how to create transparency around these decisions that platform owners will make but secondly, as I’m making clear in talking about my avatar, this approach neglects that there IS a commonality to the proposed use of the platforms, which is the ability of my avatar to move from one to one and to interact upon them.
On 07.27.08 Prokofy Neva said:
Actually, you *were* pouting. And, umm, nobody is asking you to be careful, to apologize, to behave like you are in some horribly politically correct landscape. It’s a very old, old, threadbare, worn and tired joke — turning the tables on me and saying “Oh, you’re the real FIC”. So, I carefully rebut it any time I see it, because it’s bullshit. My analysis is correct — the FIC has turned out to be worse than anyone could ever have imagined. I don’t enjoy any privileged position, except that I live in New York, which isn’t about the SL FIC but just about moving to New York from the sticks, as anybody could with enough drive.
You’re not making sense at all ascribing to me some viewpoint that doesn’t want to make “the rest of Web experience simpler”. Huh?
Again, literalism is the downfall of the Internet. You are trying to secure avatar rights THROUGH Interoperability, making the right to move through worlds something inherent inside code. And my point is that avatar rights CANNOT be housed in code or they will always be at the whim of coders. They must be housed in real life law; and indeed, they are already, it is a question of gaining their validation.
Tateru can’t be allowed to impose a connotation of “world” always with “commercial marketing use”. Sorry, that’s illegitimate argumentation from a leftist position. Worlds are worlds, whether commercial or not. This constant tekkie nit-picking on this question is really only about one thing: they wish to label everything a “platform” so that then code is law, and they as coders are utterly on control.
If they had to concede something that is socialware, that is somewhere beyond software as we know it, because the public gets to participate in its making and its constand revision, they would be ceding their utter control. And that’s why they find this so hard going. Too bad. It has to be wrested from their prying little hands.
There is a conflict between the rights of platform
makers who want freedom of expression and the rights of avatars who want to protect IP, content, and secure due process especially with things like bans and inventory confiscation. But that’s ok, this is the same conflict between the state and the individual as in RL, and it simply must be fought until the right balance is found and the game gods’ overweening powers are curbed.
@ Prok: Agreed. However, I am NOT trying to secure avatar rights through interoperability.
While I’ll post on it in more tiring and lengthy detail, my point is that the code is in danger of derailing the ability to synch real world rights with what’s possible in virtual worlds. The coders say: you can’t ever really secure digital objects from theft so we’ll make a half-hearted attempt to protect those objects but you’re better off hiring lawyers. The platform owners then take this code and say “well, I’d like to protect objects but this code does a half-ass job of allowing me to do that so why bother”. And then the user who actually MAKES the stuff looks around and goes “well, hold on, where’s MY recourse in all of this – the courts?”
The courts then circle back to the code and say, “sure, we’ll protect your rights, but can you show me a paper trail, a water mark, a policy somewhere so that we know that a crime has been committed” and everyone looks at each other and shrugs and says “um, well, we never thought of all that, or it was too hard to do, or information needs to be free anyways are you kidding?”
Interoperability doesn’t solve any of these issues. My point about interoperability is, if you’re going to be redesigning or designing the metaverse so that avatars can teleport from place to place don’t you think now is the time to also think about these wider policy issues that will let us actually synch all this coding that’s going on with law? Otherwise we’ll find ourselves, much as we have on the broader Web, at the mercy of the decisions that were made when the thing was built where the motivations were use and profit (in its different guises) with a passing glance given to the folks who would actually be affected by it and using it.
My initial post on avatars isn’t to claim avatar rights, but to try to paint a picture of the many ways in which my avatar is more than just an asset that gets passed through protocols from grid to grid. My avatar is the embodiment of my domain knowledge, contains elements of my identity and the ability to authenticate and transmit that identity, and serves as my contractual proxy with platform owners whose policies can be explicit but which are also often vague, lacking enforcement, or where there is information about the spaces that are guarded by the platform owners.
So long as my avatar is treated as a shirt that I put on which needs to be passed from grid to grid, then the folks who are coding the ability to do that deny there are more than protocols and authentication that need to be considered. These other things that my avatar represents are inherent to my embodiment in virtual spaces and I’d prefer they weren’t left to individual platform owners to sort out, because they have a tendency to be vague or obscure.
While an open metaverse can be a good thing – the more the merrier, I guess, there’s a lot to be said for thinking through in more detail the centralized functions. Second Life works, in part, because there ARE centralized functions, but by calling openSim a platform on which could sprout a million worlds, so too will sprout a million decentralized functions, functions which are, in my mind, central to my ability to protect the integrity of the many things embedded in my avatar besides what kind of attachments I’m wearing.
On 07.27.08 Tateru Nino said:
Ultimately, I suppose that whoever creates the platform, it’s the operator who ends up deciding what conditions will create the environment that they build on top of it. At least, that’s how it has been so far with earlier platforms.
Whatever the core platform has or doesn’t have is added, removed, altered or amended by the operator, within feasible limits.
[...] from Age of Conan for Second Life I’ve called Second Life a Story Box. And by calling it that, I don’t just mean that it’s an immersive playground for being [...]
[...] is crucial from the very first hours in Second Life. The post by Prokofy Neva is a reaction on the Design Contest one finds at Dusan Writer’s Metaverse. Neva asked newbies about obstacles and the user [...]
If you don’t pay attention to the community and the economy that helps to sustain that community, you end up not having anything to do in the daytime either, much less at night.
Members of Second Life’s Concierge Support group have in recent days been witness to members entering the chat literally crying because the economy has turned on them and they must abandon their land.
Mind you, this really has very little to do with the fact that the US economy is in a recession, it is simply poor judgment and execution on the part of Linden Lab. This poor judgment is backfiring with premium accounts and overall membership declining while Linden Lab grasps to assure that all is well by cooking the books on things like total square meters of its virtual world increasing. This trumped up statistic is meaningless given the fact that these numbers include openspace regions (which can sustain only 1/4th that of a full region that happens to have the same land mass)combined with huge swaths of mainland that remain unsold. Since Linden Lab can print up land at any time they could abuse the hell out of that statistic anytime they feel like it. Hey! Report due for Q3, flood the mainland so it appears that we’re growin’ dude.
Yeah, that’s a good idea. Stick your finger in the dike instead if fixing it.
But, why would something like this make someone cry? It is a game, a platform, just pixels, correct? I mean it doesn’t cost anything to enter Second Life and participate. Just cut your losses and hang out without the land you had to abandon. You can find someplace to mark as your home location. All your friends will still be there. It will be liberating. No more land fees to worry about! No more tenants asking you for help. Heck, you can do whatever you want now! Lord knows, if you need room to stretch out there are acres and acres of unsold land that you can just stand around on. Your world now depends upon your imagination even more because you can no longer build or run scripts on land that is set for sale. The sandboxes are too few and too full for you to rez anything. In fact just about anything that you want to do that will make Second Life rewarding and exciting for you now lives only in your imagination because you have no means to see them through to fruition.
Guess what? You could do the exact same thing, even if you didn’t have access to a computer at all. Just stand out in your front yard and maybe someone will pass by for you to chat with. You may even get creative and draw on the sidewalk with colored chalks.
You certainly aren’t going to buy any of that super cheap land in order to accomplish those things because you have already been violated and filled with mistrust. When land is part of the economy, you have no problem paying for land. It makes sense to you because it has a value based upon its location, good neighbors and support for your interests. It isn’t just a parcel pressed out and set for sale at a cheap price.
When we have depleted land and there is a need for expansion, certainly more land should be created. And that land will sell at a good fair price because at that point people will be looking to build out a community fueled by an economy that requires premium memberships in order to hold that land. If prices get out of hand, printing more land is certainly a way to offset that mania, but you do it in a prudent manner, you don’t just dump a continent. You aren’t doing anything to build your customer base that way. You are running them off in hopes of duping new residents into filling up all of that cheap land. What is it that you hope to engage these new residents with and retain them if you have run off the residents that are creating and building a world that will encourage new residents to participate?
Unlike Facebook, Second Life really is Social Networking. You must immerse yourself into the community and network to learn things and make things happen on a scale that is far more engaging than Facebook can even hope to offer.
Facebook is ludicrous. It is not Social Networking. There is absolutely nothing that you can accomplish on Facebook that you cannot accomplish with an Instant Messenger and e-mail running. I can send you really cheesy graphics of flowers, cakes and ice cream all day long in e-mail and pester you to look at it really fast and send something just as ugly back to me in instant message. How is that engaging me? How am I learning more about you and your interests on a passionate and meaningful level if all you are doing is sending me random bits of nonsense that was created by someone other than yourself? It doesn’t happen. The only reason YOU have Facebook is because it is free and someone you know also has it. The only thing you can really say for Facebook is that it is a glorified profile page.
Second Life will go right down the toilet if they want to turn it into Facebook and it becomes a platform where you just sign on and rez a few prims on your super cheap land that lets people know you like jazz but hate cauliflower and your favorite color is red.
Would that be any less boring or useless to you because it is three dimensional?
Dusan is right. It is the emotional transactions that make a virtual world and in fact, social networking engaging and rewarding. We want to see things that we have not imagined ourselves or see things that we have imagined presented in a way that we had not imagined. This is compelling. This fuels our own imaginations so that the world is enriched beyond a virtual space. We put these ideas to use in scenarios that benefit our health, education, our social interactions, the ways in which we express our humanity through the arts and the way we govern ourselves. Strangely enough, it seems like that is the frontier that has always engaged us “hippie types” and still seems to engage everyone on the planet. It is a frontier that should never cease to exist. It is the frontier that the educational facilities are looking to explore and they are vaulted for doing so. There is no reason to disenfranchise the rest of the community when our goals are the same.
With regard to M Linden’s initial awareness of the passion in Second Life, I will venture back to the Concierge Chat in Second Life. I have been a member of this group for a long time now and I have seen virulent passion for SL and its future. Residents were hopeful and encouraged by the directions that Second Life was taking because the welfare of the community was looked after. Oh yes, we had issues crop up that were hard to deal with and that hurt the economy but somehow they worked themselves into states that we dealt with on different levels although there was no real solution. Still the residents believed and stood fast for the Lindens who were also residents at one time and just as passionate about Second Life as they were. You could not ask for better support and encouragement from your customers. They stood ready to weather anything. They encouraged their friends and family to join. They were the very best form of advertisement that Linden Lab had going for them. They created things, they sold things, they raised money for charities, they enabled the disabled, they found new ways of teaching, they did well for themselves, their families and the people they loved and they got positive media coverage for doing so. It was not the media coverage of corporations coming into Second Life and leaving because they did not have the time or understanding to immerse themselves into the community only to leave in a huff and make negative statements about Second Life. M Linden never saw that! And I am very sad to say that if he were to enter that chat now, he would see a very ragged group that feels that all of the support and passion they had for Second Life is being ripped right out from under them. They still KNOW that this is a great idea. They still LOVE the very notion that there are endless possibilities. But the fact that they can no longer participate in this world that they built makes them cry. The fact that friends and colleagues that depended upon them to provide a safe and sane place for them to work on their projects have lost their land as well makes them cry. No one wants to disappoint anyone. No one wants to feel that kind of hurt and shame. No one that lent their industry and support to Linden Lab should have to feel that shame if Linden Lab is indeed a profitable company. After all, if the residents didn’t build an interesting world, no one would have taken notice in the first place. The fact that Linden Lab never leveraged the ravenous support of their customer base any more than they did is a mistake they can’t undo. Now the Concierge Chat seems filled with bitterness where there was such joy and hope. I have heard residents say that Lindens had behaved rudely to them. Now I cannot say whether this rudeness was reactionary or not, I simply don’t know. I have never had a Linden be rude to me. I absolutely value each and every one of the friendships and interactions that I have with those that I have met and know. Still.. it worries me.. I had never heard anyone say such a thing before and it comes on the tail of a few other stories that I heard about Lindens listening in on private conversations and seeking retributions with their alts. I cannot vouch for the validity of such things but when you hear them from people you have known and trusted for some time it just kind of turns your stomach. I don’t want those things to be true. No one does.
What happened to our community? Does anyone remember when the Lindens used to send out notices that there was a dance taking place or that Jeska and Bub were arranging an event or a contest? When who you were as a person and a creative, contributing entity to the community really meant something to the company? You know? I think I’d like to be part of a Social Network where people care about me and I am more than just a picture on a profile that you click to make a few cents for an ad company. That is what Social Networking is all about isn’t it?
Agreed. Lets not underestimate the value of socializing and sharing experiences, or even ‘doing nothing’ together. In a world where analysis and metrics and key performance indicators more often than not rule, it is the simple connectedness of people that bring meaning instead of measuring it. Yes, indeed, the telling of our stories…
Sure, orientation process needs to be better, but what is the draw to the virtual world? Flying and UGP (user generated porno)? LL made a lot of cover stories in 2007 with land speculation and lonely hearts stories–what is the message for 2009? Wondrous things from 18-20 universities? Seems a little vague to me. Also the “enterprise market” is pretty long stretch for an organization without service level agreements or a development roadmap.
SL non-land economy is stalled. There is a content glut and without noobs, all the paniced merchants are droppping their prices. This would actually make it a good buyers market if there were some new buyers in.
Land renters to Dirk’s point, better make sure they know if there landlord is going to keep their sims going. Could be that mid-month they find out that the sim is simple gone. Make sure you got copies of stuff out on the sim otherwise it could all just zap.
Seems like the complexity at LL has outstripped the management capability.
It seems one of the questions is what is the “life” of second life. Examples of this deliverable that provides the juice that makes SL compelling are things that I find easy to get agreement from people in SL, but when I try to explain to a friend or colleague that has never heard of SL, I find myself stymied. There’s no way I have tried comparing to Facebook, Myspace, Twine, Linkedin, IRC, and so forth. That is like comparing the sensations of sitting on a dead motorcycle to riding one full bore.
When I was reading Dusan trying to tilt the focus by saying what happens “at night”, I recall telling people that SL has replaced the passive alpha-wave inducing television with a much more interactive world. I have told people that for me, SL can be like a television soap opera or sit-com where I can be one of the character/writers. Not only am I able to see places, people, and stories beyond my living room, but I am able to interact and build a story together.
[...] in Failed Screenwriter to keep on topic and not be too far out for some readers. But after seeing Dusan’s rant on small worlds and oddly enough Scoble’s post about how the blogging community has failed, I feel the need [...]
[...] though Dusan Writer’s post on the explosion of small worlds and how they’ve sold out the promise of virtual worlds was a rant, it clearly described the issues at hand. The virtual landscape is splintering, [...]
People like Prok, need people like Prok, to keep people like Prok, in check. A self-fulfilling prophecy if you will.
Eloise is right, you will have “allies”, but so will Prok from his side of the fence..One mans trash is another mans prime-time tv.
I read both, when I want a “personable” view on the world, a humanist approach (there is no spoon), I read Dusan; Ciaran Laval, Sarah Nerd, Delicious Demar, even Torley to an extent..etc etc. But when I am in “work mode” or seek a hard and fast opinion (black OR/AND white, no grey), I know I can trust Prokofy; Nobody Fugazi, Benjamin Duranske etc. I may not agree with a single word any of them say at times, but at least the thoughts are provoked and I can form my own opinions and I am better for knowing those of others.
As you can see, I do alot of reading, so I apologise for being 6 days late with a response…I’m still catching up!!
The Lindens once talked about a Web project called my.secondlife.com which, if I recall correctly, was some sort of Web-based extension to SL. Maybe you could edit your SL Profile on the Web, or invite someone to be on your SL friends list from the Web, or send a group notice from the Web, etc. Here’s a link: http://tinyurl.com/5s2quv
[...] and explanatory. However I think I sacrificed some of my personal stake in doing this. After seeing Dusan’s rant on small worlds and oddly enough Scoble’s post about how the blogging community has failed, I feel the need [...]
[...] told that openSim is a platform, not a world. And I have this idea that my avatar travels in worlds, not across a platform, so I want to know how I’m going to [...]
I am mostly responding to your last question, Dusan, but other parts, like mention of “semantic web”, lined up some thoughts… I remember a conference with some of the semantic web bleeding edge/www.w3.org types of people pointing at their FOAF/RDF/URI and emphatically saying, “that’s not a URL; that’s *me*”, and I could not grok how they could think this.
Perhaps I have been over-drilled from the corporate personal privacy protection types that tell me I mustn’t put personally-identifiable information about myself or colleagues on the web, yet the idea of a web resource that can track me through my personal and professional network of friends and associates, my interests and movements, does not sound wise.
I know we need to redefine freedom and privacy in a general sense, and this is not my topic.
What Dusan got me thinking about having avatars that move through platforms, worlds, domains, and what-have-you reminds me of the concepts of having methods for not only representing ourselves to others, but also how to represent our interests. For instance, I have a yahoo launchcast music account that I have entered thousands of ratings for songs, artists, albums, and music genres; this is combined with collaborative filtering so now my “radio station” plays things I like, avoids things I don’t like, and tries to find new things I’d like based on commonalities in taste shared with the crowdsource data. Same kind of thing goes with my Amazon tastes. These could be characteristics of our avatars, our fingerprints of interests that help us filter in the stuff we are likely to want to see or know, and filter out that which we don’t need or want.
I am not sure if Dusan was visualizing this dimension of self-encapsulation that we do to create our avatar(s), but I know this is a functionality that has been attempted before and I think it still has potential.
I like being Pais, in part because he is a simplified version of me. When I do things as him I don’t have to account for all the other aspects of my other selves, roles, and responsibilities. It should also be assumed by anyone that trying to connect Pais to my RL counterpart is taboo except in extenuating circumstances. Sort of like a famous author of literature may want to use a pen-name to write some pulp fiction for a lark.
The birth of the metaverse is a great opportunity to correct some mistakes made with the internet and web. However I’m afraid some issues you mention will prove more difficult to solve – it isn’t like we’ve solved them in the real world either. Generally the more secure a system is to protect privacy and assets the more inflexible it is. Part of what makes theinternet so powerful is it’s openness, the same openness also leaves it open to the escalating battle between spammers and technologists. This battle is not without its casualties – newsgroups fought an escalating battle with spam and eventually lost. Other technology will also fall. As they say, the strong survive. I think the ability to coup withspammers and the like is the true test of any new technology.
Everything comes with trade offs. We can beat CopyBots if we restrict access. But this is a decision Linden Labs has chosen not to take as it seriously restricts the platform. Perhaps the OpenSim community can find some technology that can solve the issue, but I doubt it. I’m sure Linden Labs investigated many possible technologies and found them lacking. Ultimately many of these issues end up in trade offs – trade offs better set by an open and innovative competition. The metaverse community will need to learn how to develop within those trade offs.
Or impossibility. The answer is that you start something, you start something else, you pay proper attention to RL, and then you cycle back around again.
That’s why stuff takes time in SL. It’s a world of both accelerated and elongated time schedules.
[...] great about the metaverse is being twisted for corporations. He echoed that feeling in his post – Small Worlds, Small Minds: How Brands Have Sucker-Punched Virtual Worlds. The brand agenda has siphoned talent from the metaverse to create the equivalent of commercial [...]
[...] long time ago I posted that “The World is Not Empty”. And it isn’t. Second Life is much like the real [...]
On 08.02.08 Eris said:
Why is everyone apparently so desperate to shove everything into a web-browser? Why is that better than having a separate purpose-built client?
Are they preparing us for some hideous future where we’ll all be sitting in front of dumb web terminals with no meaningful access to the computer running behind the scenes?
Or does some idiot actually think that there would be a point to sitting in front of Firefox running a portal into SL in which you can see a prim with a webpage being displayed on it?
Wouldn’t that be the virtual world equivalent of disappearing up your own ***?
On 08.02.08 Eloise said:
Tell you what…
Go look at the ones you can embed in a browser and then go look at Second Life. I can embed something that looks slightly interesting for 2 minutes in a browser or I can head into Second Life and have a world that looks far more interesting for hours, days, weeks, months and years. I tried WoW and although the game play wasn’t for me, the world looked shed-loads better than Lively, Small Worlds etc. and the ways to interact were more organic too. No-one thinks it’s odd to down the WoW client, why should they think it’s odd to download the SL client?
I might not be in the majority here, time will doubtless tell, but in this day and age, what’s the problem with downloading a client?
I agree Eloise and I think Philip makes that point. But I also think that the Lab needs to make a compelling case for, as you say, a world that’s “far more interesting” other than that it generates shadows and light don’t you think? Because Philip is put in the hot seat here and he can’t come up with a nice crisp way of saying something along the following lines:
“3D environments in a browser are not worlds. Lively is not competition to Second Life, it’s a chat client with elements of 3D. Second Life and the grids it will connect to are worlds. The advantage of being in a world is that it provides a rich cultural context for working, socializing and networking with people, and offers deep tools for visualizing content, creating new dynamics for education and collaboration, and is a LOT more fun to boot.
“Now – I have no problem with the idea of SL in a browser and we’re working on that. And kudos to Lively for letting people decorate their rooms and to chat, it will be interesting to see whether their ad-based model is intrusive or not to the user.
But my BELIEF is that only in a true 3D world as compared to a thin chat client with a few 3D properties, do we see the emergence of networked communities of PEOPLE who are able to create a huge range of environments and activities. Just as hyperlinking pages created a new way of thinking about how to access content when the Web was born, 3D worlds are creating a new way of thinking about how people connect, share, create and develop value.”
On 08.02.08 Eris said:
Ah, Dusan, you’re becoming Toby Ziegler to Philip’s PoTUS…
I do get your point – but it’s also true that virtual worlds will be judged by a mainstream audience (the audience they crave so badly) on how ‘realistic’ they appear to be. It’s not the only criteria but it will be one of the biggest. Otherwise it’s just a ‘game’ or a cartoon to many people.
It’s why Windlight was (ultimately) the best thing to do and why shadows will be too – and I’m not ignoring the technical difficulties or the elitism they create, my computer really struggles with Windlight too.
It might be boring or frustrating to some people but ‘real’ will sell – you don’t have to explain ‘real’.
I just don’t understand why people even care about this type of thing anymore. Look at cultures where everyone is exposed to sexual stuff in normal, casual, ways through their entire life. All those people are perfectly fine people, and those societies seem to be doing quite well. The world doesn’t end when a kid takes a peek at a breast or a dancing penis. Maybe more and more games should be like this so it will become IMPOSSIBLE to stop it. Then, people won’t care, it won’t be ‘dirty’ anymore. Sometimes people are just completely brainless.
It’s the word “downside” that I find disturbing. Not to mention the word “control” – I mean, it’s not so much control in most cases as it is flagging it so that parents who so choose can make sure they have a way of making decisions with their kids.
Anyways. Don’t get me started, I’m from Canada, where sex is as natural as ice hotels and strong beer.
On 08.02.08 Alberik Rotaru said:
How do we know that ‘real’ sells? Or does LL have a hammer so they’re determined to make SL a nail?
Incoherent communication can mean the communicator is unskilled. It can also mean the content of the communication is itself incoherent.
The push for real drives the requirement for higher and higher system requirements. That’s more than faintly weird strategy for a company that’s already hit a concurrency ceiling, that claims to have a focus on education, and that claims to value its existing user base.
A friend recently rezzed an avatar. She spent about a week putting in serious SL time. She’s tech-savvy and -friendly, probably the upper end of the middle income group. I have her email this morning saying she’s deleted her account because her year-old computer barely meets the system requirements now and she’s not prepared to replace it to meet the system requirements one or two months down the road. She’d rather buy a new boat.
A light client has now been promised forever. Where is it? And what is the evidence that a static, or even shrinking, user base is asking for real?
On 08.02.08 Eris said:
I’m not exactly saying that there’s an audience baying for ‘real’ right now – I’m suggesting a future mainstream audience will take ‘real’ as a given, otherwise they’ll just (continue to) see SL as some kind of aimless game for losers. We’re promising them a virtual WORLD, so they’ll expect it to look and act like The World.
I read a quote the other day about UI design – I forgot who said it – but it was basically “The best interface is the one the user already knows” or in other words, don’t re-invent the wheel. The best experience for new users in virtual worlds is one that closely mimics the real world we’re already in because it needs little explanation, they already know most of the rules.
Whether we like it or not (i’m personally not a big fan!) there are a lot of people running around in SL trying to dignify the whole thing and make it seem more serious and business-like than it actually is. Whether it’s giving their suit-wearing avatar a briefcase or spewing pretentious faux-analysis the drive to ‘real’ is very real!
Are shadows a big part of that? Not in themselves, but the more real SL (or any virtual world) looks the more you notice the things that are missing. Sooner or (probably) later, the shadows will appear and we’ll all complain about the client lag they cause – but we’ll leave them switched on anyway…
I could disagree more, Eris. ‘because it will fly in the media’ is not a particularly good reason to do anything, let alone ground the strategy of a company’s long-term growth. Moreover, there’s no real evidence that photorealism, which is what I think you mean by looking real, is a persuasive media strategy anyway or that games, a sector showing a growth that is both explosive and sad contrast with SL, somehow suffer universal deprecation. There’s also the distinct problem that the kinds of marginal ‘reality gains’ that LL is offering don’t address the fundamental problems of the codebase.
The education’s sector cannot afford ever-increasing investments to keep up to spec. Business can, but they are not going to accept the existing crash rates or anything anywhere near the existing crash rates. The average user, presumably as opposed to fools like us, is even less likely to meet spec than we are.
I’ll prolly keep shadows switched on as well. My worry is whether the shadowy strtaregy will lead to someone having to turn out the last light.
Put it this way, assume there is a number of potential users who will driven away by ever-growing system requirements, the people who’d prefer a new boat. If that number is larger than the number of users looking for windlight or shadows then LL is, to put it mildly, in deep doodoo. I suspect my number is larger than LL’s number, but the problem is that the company does not even appear to be considering anything apart from more of the same. And that’s why we get these bizarre messages from the company.
When Mitch Kapor gave his good-bye and thanks for all the fish speech at the close of SLB5 he did an admirable job or precisely the defining the group who keep their computers up to spec no matter what,. He said adios to them and eagerly welcomed in the education, business and ‘average user’ audiences. Incomprehensible messages can mean the content is strange, or that the messenger is uncomprehending.
I don’t think we’re disagreeing about LL’s garbled message, whether it stumbles from the lips of Philip Rosedale or Mitch Kapor. You’ve highlighted the problems of their education strategy – try to flog SL to the sector least likely to have the necessary hardware. I agree that there’s no evidence that photo-realism sells games or VW’s – quite a lot of evidence to the contrary given the success of Wii.
But I still think that the drive to photo-realism (much better term for it) is probably inevitable and unstoppable – if only because we don’t know what else to do! I don’t think it’s much to do with marketing strategy, but I do think that an eventual mainstream audience will assume stability (as u said) and photo-realism are givens. They won’t ask for them – but they’ll ask why they’re missing.
Maybe there’s one strategy that might just answer some of this – Second Life running on game consoles? They have the horsepower, the broadband connection, the user-base, the hardware is the same for everyone, is relatively affordable and it only changes every 5 years. It’ll need some work on the control system but it’s do-able, in theory at least.
What if computers stayed the creative platform for SL and consoles became the recreative one? So we early-adopter content-creating freaks stay crazy – keep buying graphics cards instead of boats and make the places, clothes and objects that console-toting future residents come to visit, wear and buy?
Wouldn’t that work? We could even kid ourselves that the killer app’ ISN’T photo-real cybersex!
So the release of Lively has stirred up much talk about embedding 3D worlds and that it’s posing much competition for Second Life not being embeddable. Google’s approach is to push everything into the web that used to be in the desktop. Why pay for Microsoft Office? Google Docs are free and much easier to share. Now they want people to think, why download and install a huge client when I can use a simple plug-in like Lively.
I agree with the first comment, not everyone wants to use a web-based 3D world, and second of all, when you compare the quality of the Lively plug-in to SL, you can tell which is more attractive to users.
In any case, you can see what Google’s approach is, whether or not Second Life wants to compete with that is their choice, there are still many users that will want to download a client for a better experience. Perhaps SL will have both available, a web interface for users not concerned too much about quality, or are maybe traveling and just want to logon real quick or for a short time, and the basic large client for normal use.
The look, feel and rendering speed of a virtual world is just the same when running in a browser as it is when running as a stand alone client. The advantage of a virtual world running in a browser is that actions on the hosting Web page such as button clicks can be sent to the virtual world and actions in the virtual world can be sent to the Web page, so one can drive the other. This provides strong integration between the Web and virtual worlds. Things such as moving between different virtual worlds from different vendors while still staying on the same Web page can also be supported. This approach provides a universal mechanism for accessing virtual worlds.
There may be room for an embedded version of Sl. By light client I was meaning a viewer that would run with reasonable stability and without a lot of bells and whistles. The frustration with LL’s current management is that they have a passion for imposed strategies. You will adopt Dazzle and like it. You will use a voice-enabled client whether you like it or not. A light client would resolve many of their problems with the education sector. It would also resolve a lot of user-base problems because they would not be pushing the line that you will have a graphics card not less than 14 days old or else.
Announcing these dikats in language that would embarrass a first year university composition class, usually accompanied by historical, philosophical and bog Zen allusions that survive any informed examination for about 15 seconds just exacerbates the sense of frustration.
[...] I covered Philip Rosedale comparing the immersive qualities of Second Life to World of Warcraft in order to [...]
On 08.03.08 Alberik Rotaru said:
Linden Lab urgently needs to hire a new metaphors adviser. Just about every terrarium I’ve ever laid eyes on was a fairly sad object to gaze upon. The company does not need to keep producing these absurd metaphors which are almost invariably not faithful images anyway. The company needs a roadmap, a vision in the Dusanian sense of the word, and then the company needs to work on its execution.
I really hope this won’t ruin what has the potential to be a really cool game. Not so much the actual “sporn” itself (c’mon, it’s not THAT hard to ignore it), but rather the inevitable overreactions to it…
On 08.03.08 Alberik Rotaru said:
Phil. Do you see yonder cloud that ’s almost in shape of a camel?
Mitch. By the mass, and ’t is like a camel, indeed.
Phil. Methinks it is like a weasel.
Miych. It is backed like a weasel.
Phil. Or like a whale?
Mitch. Very like a whale.
[...] a winner from the entries to the User Interface design contest was a bit like choosing your favorite color: it’s not that there’s a wrong choice, [...]
[...] most thoughtful and dedicated communities in the world today. Philip can call this community a terrarium if he wants, I suppose he means the same thing. I’d call it one of the deepest potential [...]
[...] an annual award or whatever, but more broadly they need to communicate a “why”. Philip comparing SL to Warcraft doesn’t help. He struggled to explain WHY an immersive 3D environment is better than a Lively [...]
I used to make terrariums when I was a kid. Often turned fetid and fecund. Very hard to get a balance of nature that could exist without dramatic adjustments. So, sadly, probably more true than he meant.
In such a curse of “may you live in interesting times” mode, what popped in my mind was ‘crucible’
On 08.04.08 Jacek Antonelli said:
Pssst. Metanomics is at noon SLT, not 3PM. You’re late!
Yes…thanks Jacek – although it wasn’t the time but I didn’t realize I put SLT instead of my time zone. Wasn’t the issue. Unfortunately I was in a cab back to the office for the session and it hit a pedestrian. I’m really sorry to let everyone down I feel devastated. I just talked to them by phone they’re booking it tomorrow. I’m so sorry.
[...] I was reading Dusan talking about EA Game’s Creature Creator for Spore (AKA Sporn). The point seems to be that where ever sexuality is repressed, it creates a [...]
Well… so where are the interesting people? Maybe chat can be monitored in an automatic way that reverse-Turning tests it so that machines determine when humans are talking, then analyze to see if they are in a place that we can visit, and see if we will be welcome if we just pop in and try to join the conversation….
I am often the wallflower at the party and generally find my attempts to walk up to a group of people chatting at a party to be less than rewarding.
I did have an experience the other day I wrote about here (http://paiskidd.wordpress.com/2008/07/17/tp-wormhole/) where a malfunction apparently sent all of the avatars that clicked to go “home” actually TP’ed to another spot. There was a flow of people coming from all “walks” of SL. Finding someone to talk to was like shooting fish in a barrel. Maybe some form of this melting pot/avatar blender could become a feature, not a bug (?)
On 08.04.08 Jacek Antonelli said:
Sorry to hear about the accident! I hope the pedestrian will be alright.
Aw Dusan, I hope nobody was seriously hurt in that accident ! There is nothing to apologise for (though I’ll be sure to check the schedule myself next time ). However, I’m not sure I understood what you meant by booking it tomorrow ? There is no Metanomics show scheduled until next week, is there ?
On 08.05.08 Alberik Rotaru said:
SL appears to be suffering another major borkage, although as usual there’s no in-world announcement. I guess this means one of the Linden troika will soon make a speech from the Gate of Heavenly Lag on how ‘Second Life is like a box of chocolates’.
[...] who pointed me to this story about Polynesian Hospitality, and from Dusan Writer with this link to his own thoughts about creativity and [...]
On 08.05.08 Samantha Poindexter said:
There were so many different ways in which you were required to provide absolute proof of your identity these days that life could easily become extremely tiresome just from that factor alone, never mind the deeper existential problems of trying to function as a coherent consciousness in an epistemologically ambiguous physical universe. Just look at cash point machines, for instance. Queues of people standing around waiting to have their fingerprints read, their retinas scanned, bits of skin scraped from the nape of the neck and undergoing instant (or nearly instant — a good six or seven seconds in tedious reality) genetic analysis, then having to answer trick questions about members of their family they didn’t even remember they had, and about their recorded preferences for tablecloth colours. And that was just to get a bit of spare cash for the weekend. If you were trying to raise a loan for a jetcar, sign a missile treaty or pay an entire restaurant bill things could get really trying.
Hence the Ident-i-Eeze. This encoded every single piece of information about you, your body and your life into one all-purpose machine-readable card that you could then carry around in your wallet, and therefore represented technology’s greatest triumph to date over both itself and plain common sense.
Geez, thanks for the smile. And yeah, I’m insanely tied to this idea that it’s MY identity and I wanna keep it ON me. Silly, but it’s really a product of a bad memory and losing pass codes all the time and forgetting what e-mail I used to register. From now on, I’ll just write the stuff down on PAPER and try not to lose it!
Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » Metaverse Master Tour by Gary Hayes…
A fairly incredible video overview showing the range of virtual world platforms. Incredible both for the time it must have taken to compile and edit, but also for being able to remember the avatar names and passcodes for each of the visited environment…
[...] fall, allows people to control video games with brain waves. The device, which I’ve covered previously, has been called “uncanny” and is likened to having ‘avatar [...]
Great designs… But may I bring to your attention that also it is very important that all Windows conform to Windows conventions i.o.w. that they can (in windowwed mode) be dragged outside of the min window and to a Second monitor…
Then all menu’s lists, maps, do not clutter the main screen anymore.
Pls support JIRA entry VWR-467 thatpropagates this…
[...] about this vs. that, it’s about using the right tools for the right application.” Dusan Writer puts this whole project in the context of the visualization industry and Second Life. He claims the [...]
So? Somebody creating in AutoCAD or Maya even if you put it all on platforms that are interoperable blah blah is still in a silo. He’s in an elitist geek/designer silo. These other softwares are accessible only to people who learn their really wonky ways and that’s a considerable barrier.
The beauty of SL is that it has building tools that even dummies can use to build at least simple structures, and they can also easily take other people’s buildings and move them or modify them or put them together, and that increases the democracy and the freedom of the economy and the world as a whole.
It’s vital to have a slope that the amateur can enter and remain happy on, but that the professional can also excel at. If you want high fidelity, use all those other things and play with that.
But SL even if it is “stale” or “behind” has something far different: the ability of the ordinary person to immerse in building and designing as much as a pro. That it is invaluable, yet never valued by the elites, I guess they find it a threat. Amateurs with a platform like this, hey, they become pros more easily.
[...] 3D art assets and promotions for Blue Mars. “ When I wrote about them previously, I commented: But I’m a big believer in two things: stuff is engaging not because of how it looks, although [...]
[...] of a TechCrunch interview where in explaining why the 3D properties of Second Life are important he compared it to Warcraft, and then followed it up by telling the New York Times that Second Life is a [...]
[...] Now, I’ll give Philip a little more credit. But this interview comes on the heels of a TechCrunch interview where in explaining why the 3D properties of Second Life are important he compared it to Warcraft, and then followed it up by telling the New York Times that Second Life is a terrarium. [...]
[...] Essay questions: Describe how the following is useful for positioning yourself in the media, or towards strengthening relationships with [...]
On 08.08.08 Eris said:
I haven’t seen BM running but it seems to maybe have the right ingredients and the wrong recipe? Professionally produced content is great but HOME, for example, will have that (and more, probably) and a ready-made user-base with the requisite hardware already in place. Is photo-real enough to hold an audience? Not in itself, not as long as you are ‘locked’ into audience mode but there’s one time when photo-real REALLY works for people – when they’re making stuff.
If you’re a would-be content creator then it’s a huge draw, probably a killer app for a lot of people. So maybe BM need to rethink their apparent strategy – if they made the creative tools (or upload of Shade® content) available only to paying subscribers then they might be onto something, a revenue stream and an eager user-base in one?
[...] also been trying to deal with the plethora of sex-oriented rooms (much as EA is trying to sort out Sporn), it all just goes to prove that code without policy is an invitation to a [...]
Hahaha yeah. I have nothing against Philip, what I have something against is the ability to articulate a clear value proposition. I mean, come on – terrariums? Spatial voice? Funny hats? Warcraft?
If he’s truly the best in the world at coding virtual worlds, as he claims, then code. Let M handle PR, he does a better job by current indications.
Did you see him on the Future of the Internet sitting with the big boys? He looked like he was trying way too hard to be vision-y quoting “some guy” on the nature of the corporation.
Philip, I fear, has gone out of tune with his own message, or the message has gone in a direction that he doesn’t quite get yet.
Awww I take it all back!!!! Now I feel like I’m the Lou Dobbs of Second Life.
On 08.08.08 Eris said:
That’s your bet? I really wouldn’t put any money on that.
Didn’t they already announce this, bar the name? I stumbled across it in the Wiki a couple of days ago too – a light chat client – don’t we know this already? Plus Pip Linden did ‘the decent thing’ and mentioned AjaxLife a couple of times recently. Trust me, when a (former) CEO does that it means they’re about to steal the idea and pass it off as their own – ask Apple how that one works.
Interestingly, they’re also (apparently) planning a modal client which is something that was mentioned (by me! by me!) during the UI contest and which was hinted at in at least one of the entries…
Maybe they put this stuff in the Wiki knowing no-one will ever find it?
I had high hopes that Blue Mars was going to allow user-created content, so this is a disappointment. The quality of the images shown here is impressive, and I can imagine Blue Mars becoming a 3D shopping experience and catalogue… a very lucrative business model.
Eris’ idea is an interesting one.
And may I say, Dusan, you are on fire over here! Breaking stories at a break-neck speed.
On 08.08.08 Alberik Rotaru said:
Nah, you’re more like a terrarium, or a sea monkey, or those really cool x-ray glasses you can order by mail…
Well I see it like government – ever notice how they’ll have a big announcement like “Congress announces support for spotted owl” and when you read the fine print they’re really re-announcing stuff they announced before?
So maybe the big announcement will be “Linden Lab Announces that Announcements Have Moved” seeing as you never know where they’re actually going to say stuff anymore what with the blog RSS kicked off log-in, comments closed, that odd forum thing, a press release archive on the Lab site that is pretty thin on content, and Bloomberg picking up the tip first on the new VP.
Meh. I feel this kind of description is too vague. What needs to be articulated, especially to those not familiar with virtual worlds, is how they really improve upon other modes of non-face-to-face communication. Why is a meeting in a virtual world better than a teleconference with a web-meeting tools, for example? How do we develop metrics of this feeling of being connected with others in a virtual world?
I don’t disagree Pais but at least these quotes as headline snapshots are better than calling it a terrarium. What I’m on about is the elevator pitch not the metrics.
OK, OK… you’re right, it better than nothing. It is quoting some Smart Techie Guys. I’d like some analogy or reference that connects with a concept we can all relate to allow us to understand what makes the virtual world better.
I *know* from my experience that there is something compelling that happens in SL that goes beyond the obvious, but I have yet to put my finger on what it is.
It is just beyond my words, but I know it could be described in an elevator speech. I am saying we need to find it.
On 08.09.08 IYan Writer said:
Given recent LL performance, I’d love for your prediction to come true, but very much doubt it.
Well with ‘M’ in charge things seem to be moving more logically. The visionary part has been done, now lets build something out of the probably thousands of napkins and other scratch papers that have been produced/gathered over the last 5 years with ‘ideas’. Philip is still in the stage of the idea – I think M is in the stage of the product. The problem with the idea is its never really finished so it makes sense his message goes inconsistent with the product which is about definitions and concrete actions. Thats my thoughts anyhow.
Just thinking, might also be a smart move from Lindens, to take more distance from the connotation that comes with ‘Second Life’:
Have you downloaded SLim already?
What’s that?
Oh, a 3D instant message client & filesharing system. Really slick! Based on the old Second Life, but better!
Thanks for that, I keep meaning to link to it since I saw it the other tday. Found it a really useful round-up and a nice supplement to the Microsoft interview.
I do still think we need the elevator pitch.
You know like “Why meet in a virtual world again?”
“Think sphere versus square: Web and audio conferences are square, flat, transmission-based. Virtual world meetings are relational, space-based, give a sense of being there.”
Something like that. My imagination needs to fire up a little more however. Hehe
I love it. And can you imagine if you can use SLim without ever having to log-in to SL, but there’s a mini avatar creation tool built in, both things compel you to understand avatars, socializing, groups, chat, etc. and eventually you’re off buying sims and holding beach parties.
Too bad. We were hoping for the ability to make user-created content as well. Oh well, it’s now morphing into something like a souped-up version of Entropia I guess. I wish them all the best. But, it would be a mistake to continue comparing Blue Mars to SL, after this news–they’re simply worlds apart.
Wouldnt it be easier to just give people some glass’s so it can be proper 3D AR?
It cant be that much hard work to streamline some TOLED based or video see-though 3D Specs in this day and age.
[...] The entries from all the participating finalists [...]
On 08.12.08 Digado | Mapping the Metaverse said:
I talked it over with some 3D pro’s and the promises made in the narrative are 99% certainly impossible. What you are looking at, can only be done real time by raytracing, a highly experimental technique currently in development by IBM and Intel for off-line environments.
The ‘unlimited light bounce’ would create many, many megabites (and depending on the environment even gigabites) of data and the cloudcomputing is a nice story, but doesn’t make up for the massive amounts of data that still need to go back and forth through internet connections.
also notice the quality of the OTOY visuals – looks like any standard graphics engine, certainly not the kind of visualization as displayed in the movie.
And as techcrunch comments note, the first minutes have been stolen from a portfolio movie CITY – it has been made 4 years ago and definitely isn’t ‘real time’.
Still its nice to see what could happen probably within the next 5 to 6 years – but the best indication of high end virtual worlds today is still HOME and Blue Mars
PS my best guess is it was the ‘pitch video’ to win over major investors such as Greenspan to look into developing a high end virtual world. It would account for the narrative making the promises ‘as yet to be developed’ – ‘user generated content’ with a shot that’s obviously not user generated content at all (its obviously part of the model in style and composition) and the use of material they didn’t develop.
Totally agree Digado – just sooo tantalizing. I’ve been keeping an eye on OTOY though, at the very least it holds promise, especially if their version 2 promises hold true.
[...] difference between the entries was so small that making a decision was difficult and I can’t thank the judges enough for their hard work and wisdom: Ordinal Malaprop, Eristic [...]
[...] The winner of the Second Life User Interface Contest has just been announced at a special edition of the Metanomics show in Second Life: Rhita Shan is the winner, and you can read about this contest and watch the projects on Dusan Writer’s Metaverse. [...]
[...] World Notes has just posted an article on the UI design contest highlighting one feature from each entry – features that I somewhat arbitrarily chose to show the [...]
Over on Dusan Writer’s blog the winners of his UI redesign contest have been announced.
Of course I also blogged my own thoughts about the UI and how I think it should be redesigned and mine is (naturally in my possibly biased view) better than any…
Congratulations to the winners… absolutely fantastic work!
On 08.13.08 Garret Bakalava said:
My take on all of this, God love Phillip since one has to love someone who had a dream, probably was called nuts for having it, and then bygosh, made this “virual world thing” he’d been talking about to the sheer amazement of those who might have rolled their eyes at him or behind his back–is this. Listen closely to the story that Hamlet Au tells about the first day the tiny initial crew of Linden employees rezzed their avatars inworld. Dissect that day until its meaning become clear. The first few months are telling too, but I think that first day is enough to see that there was a dream but no plan. Maybe oddly, that’s probably the root of why I fell in love, so to speak with SL. A dream. Who can or should plan “a dream.” Now a company, that’s another matter. I say, long live Phillip, the dreamer, though perhaps he shouldn’t be on the promo tour.
On 08.13.08 Prokofy said:
Communism is a great evil, yes.
The game companies have a conspiracy going. They are preparing all the young minds for communism with this kind of exploited, grinding labour and collectivism. Using addictive games, they are breaking down their individuality, and conditioning them, desensitizing them to the downside of the collective and Stakhanovite labour.
Next, following the theories of Ted Castronova, they will begin to apply this to real life. The Extropians will be at the forefront of this mass adaptation of the collectivist model, all under the guise of being innovative, new, and experimental.
You’ll see!
On 08.13.08 Eris said:
Frankenviewer?
Dunno who came up with that but please, Dusan, can we call it that?
SL UI Design Contest Winner (and a lot of photographs)…
Miss Rheta, can I haz three kisses? Errr… I mean… last night, at Metanomics, a long time of waiting and anticipation finally ended, as Dusan Writer officially announced the three winners for the Second Life User Interface Design Contest. In…
[...] initial months of Second Life, his new hire at his side, and Mitch Kapor in the wings waiting to end the frontier mentality and get the grid ready for the grown [...]
On 08.14.08 Eris said:
I must admit I get so tired of academic research on Second Life and virtual worlds in general. It seems that on any average day in SL you could let go of that cat you’re swinging and hit at least 3 PhD students scraping shaky theses together.
Given that we’re still so early in this phenomenon any ‘research’ has to be so speculative that it might as well have come from a crystal ball. Worse still, that speculation sometimes starts to influence the platform itself and some people start to believe in notions of immersion-ism versus augment-ism. All these ‘isms and no real insight? I have a term for all this stuff – I call it Premature Extrapolation, as yet there’s no cure. (Well, if you can’t beat them ‘Ethnographicise’ them!)
The reason for my mini-rant? This sounds like a piece of academic work I actually want to read! Well, it had to happen eventually….
As a case study from Harvard it’s happily clear of extrapolations or crystal balls – what it does manage to do is explain the business challenge that Pip and crew faced in deciding how “open” to be and does a pretty fine job of it. In fact, if I could strip out the business challenge part, I’d say you’d have a pretty good description, assessment and overview of Second Life, its development, its promise and its challenges. It doesn’t give any answers but then neither has the Lab itself other than in the most vague and general terms.
I wonder whether Philip posted the challenge to the JIRA and is still waiting to see what tasks the Lindens decide are worth doing when they wake up in the morning.
JIRA: Create a concise, understandable strategy and business model for Linden Lab, back up with a road map, communicate effectively with core customers, and execute flawlessly.
Meantime, Eris, you should apply:
“We are seeking User Experience Designers who are passionate about creating user interfaces that are elegant, intuitive, and engaging. You should have strong interaction design skills, an eye for visual aesthetics, and a hankering to do a bit of user research. You’re not necessarily a programmer but you’re also not afraid of code or people who write code; we work directly with developers to improve Second Life. If you believe in the power of design to change the world — virtual and real — then Linden Lab is the place for you.”
I should say (for the irony-deficient) that I’m not quite the nihilist I sometimes sound. I recognise the need for a bit of speculation (academic or otherwise) I just think we should see it as that and not confuse it with fact, which too often happens.
I should apply? LOL That’s a flattering and, I assume, not entirely serious suggestion! Way out of my depth I think, but it does sound like fun! I’m really encouraged that they’re appointing positions like this. However, they do sound like NEW positions which probably goes a long way to explain the current UI?
I’m under the impression that Grant Linden was brought in under that role, but the fact they’re still filling position(s) maybe, just maybe, speaks to the idea that the user experience really is a critical area of focus.
[...] then there’s Dusan Writer who thinks browser based virtual worlds (small worlds) might have sold out the dream. My question is simple – why do we have to choose between client and browser based virtual [...]
On 08.14.08 Nany said:
It seems to escape even Philip Rosedale that what people do in Second Life is communicate with eachother, verbally and non-verbally. The reason this place is interesting and useful is that it is an improved communications interface. You don’t have to sit home alone the way we do with no-interactive media, or sit in a crowd alone the way we do in conventional theater. You can be with and communicate with others who share your interests, preferences and values in Second Life, no matter where you or they are geographically. We build and do things in Second Life in order to interact with other people. Of course improved communications are for business and entertainment. I don’t see why anyone should have so much trouble arguing that point.
[...] not context-based like the suggestion by Roy Cassini in his User Interface contest entry, it’s a step in the direction, and by being Web-based rather than hard-coded in the viewer [...]
Dusan, I have been a little sideways with Kurzweil’s various pronunciations over the years… but decided last week to see what he had to say. I got through a couple chapters of his singularity book on the plane yesterday and it is giving me quite a different perspective on things.
I know how the marketing gits and other modern jackasses dogpile on the words-of-the-day (like that worthless ‘carbon footprint’ googles hype) and thus ’singularity’ is yet another term tossed out continually.
Yet so far in my reading Kurzweil is helping to frame the kinds and rates of changes going on around us to illuminate what is not intuitive or perceivable from our perspective within the system.
Maybe take a look at the book, or excerpts he makes available, or interviews he’s done (I got hooked via the one on NPR.org, you can also see him talk about it and give a thumbnail overview on TED.com).
seeing how changes are happening exponentially really juices the imagination when asking where will Pais and I be in a few years…
Um yeah, I’ve read all of his books Pais and just read ’spiritual’ a second time to see if I was missing something.
And sure, the rate of change isn’t where I have an argument, it’s the implication of that change for computing and humanity that I take issue with. The ’singularity’ won’t happen in isolation from other forces, so extrapolating what it means or even that it will model the mind’s capacity is where I part company.
[...] News on Second Life New Second Life features due next week 2008-08-15Hackers Punch a Hole In Zyngo 2008-08-15[netbehaviour] OneAvatar 2008-08-15Jolitas Outfit des Tages 2008-08-15The miracle of [...]
When I saw some of Kurzweil’s introductory text telling me that not only will non-biological intelligence exceed that of a human’s brain, but that of all human brains computational power together; while bringing us all to more human-than-ever planes of existence, I was hoping that by the end of the book I would be relieved of my Bill Joy “The future doesn’t need us” bleak skepticism. There is even an frontspiece Bill Joy blurb for the book that kinda tips his hat in that direction.
I think what you’ve provided is the spoiler that by the end of the book I may have no more insight into my personal questions than I am starting with. Phoey.
Haha read on. I suppose I owe a more detailed response but it’s Friday and my head hurts – but some day I’ll try to deconstruct that damn singularity thing.
[...] this backdrop, the community of child avatars responded to their exclusion from the SL5B events with a parallel birthday celebration. The call for inclusion included a wide [...]
[...] and self-policing in the absence of effective platform governance. Morality and Tribes I previously wrote: Synthetic worlds magnify, focus, and contain our explorations until they cycle back to catch our [...]
Excellent analysis. This leads directly into how states interact with coding authorities/platform owners, particularly when the two might be at odds over issues of national or transnational legislation. As virtual world assets increasingly have real world value (to put it very bluntly) will states feel the need to intervene in virtual worlds if, for example, the inworld assets of a large corporation with lobbying powers are compromised by inworld ‘violent’ actors? Will intervention powers be devolved/outsourced? What thresholds exist? And a thousand more questions …
Lots of good questions, Dusan. We don’t really have any good models of fair and uncorruptable governing bodies in the world, I guess either.
I was playing with ideas of where things could evolve….
We had some talk about avatars that carry with them lots of information about our preferences and other aspects of that virtual world identity and history… we talked about the Kurzweil observation of how change is happening at an exponential rate, so we can imaging huge amounts of computing, memory, and bandwidth at our disposal…
so in that context I hatched an idea (while flipping through the programs on my Tivo’s now playing list and seeing ‘My Name is Earl’):
Virtual Karma
See, with real karma, we rely on comeuppance being meted out some mechanical aspects of the Universe that are not currently measurable with our science, however, with sufficient technology, karma can be automated. Avatar Karma can be just the start. The karma of every entity can be quantified and monitored.
Massive amounts of computing resources would collect and analyze data in a neutral and sanctified cloud computing complex, fact checking and making available what is needed to be known while maintaining scrupulous adherence to privacy.
We could fairly and exhaustively monitor if google really is holding up its promise to “not be evil”, we can instantly see any taint improper corporate influence in our governments, we can see the provenance of our food as it is being served, see the true colors of a policeman’s conduct on his sleeve, hold cell phone companies accountable for treating customers like scum… you get the idea.
*Notes that my Plurk karma has dropped steeply over the past few days.*
On 08.18.08 Twisted Laws said:
I’ve known kids in SL on the main grid and I’ve helped a few and AR’d one for being an idiot. The only real problem with a kid in SL is that people outside of SL may possibly accuse you of being a pedeophile for a relationship that may develop while the child may not have been totally honest about their age. It makes me be afraid to interact with those that I suspect to be underage. In real life, you can at least look at them and make a reasonable judgement of age. That ability doesn’t exist in SL or on the internet.
[...] code, creates a third construct which are the sub-cultures and tribes (as I droned on about in my last post). It’s not a user/owner paradigm, but rather one of tribe/code, and it will be interesting to [...]
[...] 100 passcodes. And I recently blogged on this….and blogged…and blogged…..and 4,000 words later came to the same conclusion as Edutechy who also had a nice simple diagram and a name (Virtual [...]
sweet. makes sense to me. meta-ava-data? metatar? avadata? identadata?
I think this would be a tip of the iceberg of the kinds of structures that we could build that are nicely secure and privatized but can interact with systems to render them to our needs at a given time.
Beyond wallets and wardrobes, but to our worldview and knowledge perhaps stored in personalized ontologies. A repository of our non-biological knowledge and virtual experiences and memories.
Well it WILL be nice (and we are working on some part of it). Do you realize that it will be a SEPARATE service? I mean it MUST be a separate service then.
There are some hurdles on the way of adoption and there’s relatively little understanding so far how to overcome them.
[...] this is good news. And I can now check another box in my list of promises from January of this year. To recap, at that time based on promises and statements from the Lab, [...]
I think your sentiment applies greatly as we move from gaming to enterprise solutions. One of the things we are most focused on at Nortel with our recent entry into the virtual world space (http://www.projectchainsaw.com/blog) is the idea of identities being verifiable and presence meaning more than just an out of the office setting.
[...] virtuels OTOY In The News Again: Advanced 3D Renders and a Browser-Based Virtual World Il semble que la 3D dans le browser pour un univers virtuel ou non, intéresse [...]
[...] bits and pieces of Blue Mars at the virtual worlds conference in New York this past spring, I was rather taken with how beautiful their virtual world environment could be. Their promise was that they were [...]
[...] Mars is promising an early 2009 release and have partnered with content providers including a company under the direction of famed concept artist Syd [...]
“Mono” is Spanish for “monkey” (and pronounced “MOH-noh”, rhyming with the last name of Sonny of Sonny and Cher). The group that does “Mono” is Ximian (”simian”) headed up by Miguel de Icaza (who’s from Mexico); they originally did the file browser Nautilus. I presume they wanted to keep the primate theme when they chose the name.
Thanks for covering the launch of the Project Chainsaw blog. We will be providing some more video of life within the web.alive environment in the near future. Keep up with us at http://www.projectchainsaw.com/blog
ROFL – it’s not that I’ve ignored interoperability, identity, or reality… I just make an assumption that if we continue to focus on today’s reality – we’ll never reach interoperability at the simple level I’ve described. All of these should be as transparent as walking into a room and flipping the light switch on! I’m going to assume that a not-so-warm glow will begin to shine from my Compact Fluorescent Light bulb. I don’t care how it happened; I only expect it to happen without any more effort than I’ve applied.
Consequently, amongst my peers in the eLearning social arena, VD was vehemently rejected for something more trendy and marketable – My VD concept will now be known as “Oi!”…
Hehe – I only meant you bypassed it in the long windy wordy that I covered it in what ended up being a rambly blog of my own that came to a similar conclusion. I still love the line about only wanting to enter a “clean, lit room” – and it’s more than just one log-in, it’s making sure I can see the walls and the back exits and understand the spaces I enter, so I think we’re in agreement – except of course we’d be using energy-efficient lights no?
[...] clear policy coupled with appropriate enforcement. As an example of how an imbalance can occur, I recently wrote about a sim used by the child avatar community where reporting an age offense (in this case it [...]
On 08.26.08 Luke Poplin said:
What a shame.
On 08.26.08 Maklin Deckard said:
WHAT?? No more manically happy rearranging of the deck chairs while the titanic sinks? How shall we ever survive without regular fluff pieces?
Seriously, all I can say is its about goddamn time! Torley should have been muzzled long ago. LL needs a PROFESSIONAL in charge of communications, not ‘happy-happy! Nothing ever is bad and I got a box of flourescent crayolas!’ tutorials.
Whenever people say we need realism in virtual worlds, I just point them to The Simpsons (TV series). It’s popular, it’s fun, and it doesn’t look realistic.
Then look at something like Beowulf, a big budget movie with near-photo-realistic rendering – and a flop.
In summary, realism is neither necessary nor sufficient for broad appeal. In fact, by requiring a more powerful computer, you end up shrinking your potential audience.
I believe it’s a temporary ban – Torley is hinting at exciting happy happy things to come! Stay tuned for a SLim Torley? A new Help Island? Who knows – but maybe we’ll lose the neon?
I don’t disagree Troy. In fact, I always hesitate to use the word realistic and prefer “richly rendered”. It’s not to say that SL needs to appeal to folks with high end computers, leave that to Blue Mars, but knowing what’s out there, what’s coming, should put added momentum to SL making sure they give a good REASON to come (and stay).
Shadows, while nice, should come after bump maps and shaders, standard features of hardware rendering for a decade. Shadows and mirrored surfaces and more await us as they are standards in real-time 3D this century, even before Second Life launched.
It is pt for you to call the prim “lowly” as it is a relic from the earliest 3D applications of the Amiga in the 1980s. They can continue to have their place but not at the expense of meshes or bones or other modern 3D objects. What’s wrong with out-world construction? It’s no different than build web pages offline.
The real issue you raise is the issue of “creative” and “passive” use of 3D worlds. Creative to what end? Passive to what detriment? While creativity for creativity’s sake is all well and good, it produces what Second Life has become: a marginal space that hemorrhages users.
I have argued from my signup in 2006 that bridging the gap between gamers and socializers is the only plan to ensure a sustainable and popular world. Gamers can also enjoy the pleasures of building, exploring and making friends. Some of this already exists in the gaming community where modders create new levels and objects and people maintain friends through common gaming servers. When I signed up Linden Lab even used a banner ad proclaiming “yesterday I created my own FPS, today people are paying me to play it.” The design of landscape manipulation and building creates the ideal environment to make Second Life a living map editor for games, all that’s missing is the proper infrastructure as the current “damage area” code is worthless and LSL is too anemic to allow script-based solutions.
The anti-gamers out there argue they don’t want to be part of a Wild West but why is that the presumptive outcome? Gamers in their areas, some watching and chatting others playing, builders creating new areas and weapons, and everyone getting to take a break to enjoy Second Life for what it is today. Millions log in to Xbox Live a day, millions buy new games every month. It is a social non-passive entertainment that is just waiting to be rolled-up into a larger persistent user-extended world.
[...] An interesting article from Dusan about realism in rendering and the future of Second Life: Dusan Writer’s Metaverse A Mesh of Chips: Rendering Virtual Worlds and Saying Goodbye to the S… My response: Shadows, while nice, should come after bump maps and shaders, standard features of [...]
As it happens, our August update is going up this week.
FWIW, the snags we hit had nothing to do with multiclient. Multiclient works fine, but we never planned to make all the clients ourselves. We have several, we have open source code libraries for several languages, and they’ll be released as part of the developer program for whoever is interested.
Rather, the challenges have more to do with usability of tools and polish. But we feel like we’re in a good place on that now. We committed a while ago to providing a monthly dev status update, did so last month (http://www.metaplace.com/blog/66.html), and will do so again this month in the next day or so.
@Maklin: I’m not Communications Manager, Katt is. And for shame, you forgot to mention the many historical, critical discussions I’ve had with Residents about improving SL’s usability, among other things.
Sorry Adz, didn’t mean to make it sound like a blanket policy or community decision, and really I point it all out because it’s the best example I have on hand of the tension created between policy and the shift to “granular decision-making” when a system is broken, poorly enforced, or where the guilty are never presumed innocent.
Haha tell it like it is ColeMarie always better to speak your mind. If I could find mine I’d do the same.
On 08.26.08 ColeMarie Soleil said:
<3
*squish*
On 08.27.08 Daniel Regenbogen said:
Well, as I already wrote in that forum thread, these new categories won’t make the AR process better – I’m afraid they will make it worse (and it is already messed up as it is).
Age play as AR category? Time to AR the midforties women playing 20yo barely legal sexbombs. I see lots of drama coming from AR’s by the many people who just don’t KNOW that age play is perfectly okay, in contrast to SEXUAL age play.
Failure to deliver product or service? Time to AR Linden Lab – in most cases non-deliveries have their reason in the non-stable running of THEIR service. I see lots of drama coming from AR’s by many people who just don’t understand that for each really fraudulant transaction failure you have a dozen or more where the seller is a victim of a far from perfect system himself.
And – even though the G-Team falsely claims to investigate all ARs – underage ARs against residents who already ARE age verified and LL has the PROOF of that on their own files end in suspending their account within minutes (and needing WEEKS to get the suspension lifted again). Bad. Really bad, the ultimate griefer tool. This simply is not acceptable.
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse – A possible speech – Dusan Writer’s layout for Mark Linden’s speech at SLCC08. Have a chuckle, cry, rejoice, … whatever it makes you feel like, but there is a high probably M. Linden will use this! [...]
Now I don’t feel as if Im missing out on anything by not going! Ive read it all here! when he does make his speech someone will post a transcript lets put it side by side and compare wouldn’t it be great if there were some mind blowing surprises! but after the “Big” announcement after the 5th Birthday…I guess we don’t expect much in the way of real exiting news…what happened with that anyway??? who won…If Phil did get a makeover I guess that would eclipse anything anyone else said at the convention anyway!!! Great post
On 08.28.08 Howard said:
we are going with the free to play microtransaction model, so artists will be able to create objects like clothing, accessories and furniture and sell it in game (with a cut of it going to us of course) but houses and buildings will all be professionally made. of course, nothing is set in stone so who knows if that’ll change.
I have learned more from Torley’s vidtuts than ANY other source of tutorial in or out of SL. For those who dont appreciate his style, dont look. By the way, I’m a dancer and that is all I have ever wanted to do here. I hate building and couldn’t script my way out of a paper bag… most classes in SL have flown over my head. However, thanks to Torley’s wacky style, I have actually completed a few small projects and even mustered the guts to enter the very public snowman building contest during winterfest. Thank you Torley!
[...] And, look out for Doug Thompson! He is also known a the great blogger Dusan Writer who sponsored the Second Life (TM) User Interface competition. [...]
There are two separate issues to consider here: The Content versus the Delivery. The Second Life(TM) environment is a product that certainly requires a platform on which to exist, but it can be viewed as existing independently of the client. The Second Life world, made up of its prims, people, communities, businesses, events etc. could exist in different platforms. The specific software platform on which it stands (and that could be a web browser, a stand-alone client, a java-based app or whatever else) is, in essence, a delivery system.
Linden Lab(R) are really working with two products; a virtual world and a software client. It is possible for these two to be divorced and for Linden Lab to farm out the platform work to others. What they need to do is continue to define the nature, scope, and content of the Second Life virtual world, which will, in turn, drive the development of the client.
This model suggests that the issue LL needs to focus on is maintaining the content. I ;m not suggesting the platform is not important – without it you can’t have your Second Life existence – but customers don’t sign up for Second Life because they want software but because they want to experience the virtual world. You may have the slickest, fastest, most stable software on the planet, but if the VR you visit is a dull as the Barbie Girl(TM) virtual world, you won’t stay. It is worth remembering that current SL residents still stay with the experience despite the flaky software. Ultimately I suggest VR experience is more important than the software platform – web-based or otherwise.
For a discussion of some of what I consider the four key elements of a successful virtual world, check out my article in “SLentrepreneur Magazine” entitled “The 4C’s of 3D’s.” http:/www.slentre.com (due out on September 3rd, 2008).
[...] It seems Robin trots out when there are fires to extinguish. Torley’s post that he had been silenced from the main blog, disaffection amongst the SL reporters and bloggers over sudden silences both in [...]
Absolutely! Blizzard wins for turning the chore of learning the interface into a compellingly playable game, as well as for WoW providing a quality experience across a broad range of hardware.
Yes, you can lower your graphics settings for SL, but it impairs the experience, and each technological upgrade makes the world less acceptable, especially for the groups LL seems most interested in holding onto – people in education, business and government, who are much less likely to have high-end graphics cards than someone shelling out a subscription fee for a game like WoW.
Blizzard knows its customer base, works to broaden it, and to deliver a quality experience (though at a fairly high price). Linden Lab has a long way to go in each of those areas.
[...] Someone Is Home Over on Metaplace the summer silence had started to rub the alpha community’s the wrong way, but a promised update was posted as the month winds down and we head into a long winter of tiling [...]
There’s a slightly mysterious option (new to me anyway) in the latest 1.21 Release Candidate. On the General tab of Preferences, beside your language choice there’s an option to “Share language with objects”. In other words there’s a (new?) option to tell SL what language u prefer to use and it’s accessible by scripts?
It would allow scripted items, vendors for example, to address users in their chosen language without any intervention by the user – assuming we all script our objects with multiple languages of course.
That kind of automatic and invisible preference-setting could be excellent in SL, but the idea of flags floating around people’s heads is HIDEOUS! I come into SL to get away from petty nationalism and flag-waving, that’s part of the joy of it – I can meet anyone from anywhere. Flags over outr heads, that has to be an American idea, they’ll stick a flag in anything…
On 08.30.08 Alberik Rotaru said:
In real life, Australians rarely use ‘Gday’ when we meet each other. In Second Life it makes a deeply convenient flag, eh. And why do Australians believe New Zealanders tag sentences with ‘eh’ and Americans believe Canadians tag sentences with ‘eh’. And do Canadians and New Zealanders share this belief about each other?
Great little write-up.
Yes it was all generalizations, and if you follow by blog, you’ll lear pretty quick it’s more tongue-in-cheek than anything serious, that’s for sure.
Never met an Australian or New Zealander in person. But, as for Canadians proclaiming ‘eh’ often – as in every 10th sentence or so… well, I’m here in Canada now. Maritime Provinces. And it’s true ~grins~
Yes, likely it’s the dialect of this part of Canada, but it just goes to show: there often is a little truth in most things you hear about.
Interesting thing about all those “concerned” journalists is that they so easily find sex and drugs and whatever in second life. How comes they never find any education and creativity? I guess it has something to do with THEIR interests. Which is OK, but don’t blame the world because of your dirty search queries.
Actually, it is time that somebody sue their asses off for misreporting. Second Life is not a world for teens and they obviously know that. Still, they insist on negative propaganda.
And Eris – saw that, really great addition to the Grid.
Myself, I wear a shirt made of Canadian bacon now to avoid confusion because you’re right, those little flags are a problem – I can’t even tell the French flag apart from the American one – which one has the hammer and sickle again?
On 08.30.08 Alberik Rotaru said:
Little Australian and New Zealand flags would be no use to anyone, eh. The state of Queensland, where I grew up, is another ehist area.
On 08.30.08 Velicia L. said:
Uhm… pardon me, but isn’t stuff like this what the profile is for?
On 08.30.08 Chimera Cosmos said:
Wow, could they work any harder to find the “really bad things” they are looking for and ignore the other 95% (or whatever–I never run across this stuff)? Geeze.
Coming out of “beta”? You mean “alpha” right? We’ve been in alpha all this time.
I’d say we announced too early, because we did major retrenching earlier this year. We feel good about where we are now, but we also don’t want to make that mistake twice.
Oops – coming out of alpha. I think what’s incredibly tough is begging for patience without promising how long the patience needs to last. With Linden Lab, in this case they didn’t beg for patience they just went silent and then said “sorry, we’re changing, should have told you, forgot, but we’ll get to those changes later and in the meantime, well, in the meantime nothing.”
At least with Metaplace there’s been a great deal of transparency about the retrenching, both through media contacts and the community. No one is obliged to open up the corporate planning charts or development map – so it’s always a struggle between transparency, failing to deliver on promises, and a right to maintain a few corporate cards close to your chest.
And once out of alpha, the real work begins. I’m looking forward to Linden Lab reaching Beta any day now.
See you in LA.
On 08.31.08 Mokey said:
Honestly, the lead of this story is the most irresponsible part of it. ALL of SL is the “dark side of the web”? This is absolutely horrible journalism.
[...] first hour of a new user: the ineffectiveness of search, the shallowness of Spotlight, and now the shifting of tutorials and help off into little buckets on the forums or little neon-lit islands run by our [...]
[...] Open Source But here’s the thing: through the UI contest, I was privileged to witness the talent of the Second Life community. I was able to participate in a process of listening to Residents talk [...]
Hmmm….isn’t it a great great grand daddy by now? Although, the further we come, the further the rendering advances but we’re still mostly hanging out looking to chat.
I think the simplest description of SLim, is that it’s a text/voice instant message service that requires that all parties have active Second Life accounts (and also that they be running the SLim client or an as yet unreleased compatible viewer).
FWIW, virtual worlds are definitely “places” in my mind. But to me, clients and devices are merely windows that look onto that place. That doesn’t preclude rich 3d “windows” — I merely happen to think that multihead, flexibly represented VWs is the future.
[...] Dusan Writer has a take on the panel I was on, casting it as Metaplace vs Linden Lab — though to my mind that leaves out the contributions of Mike Wilson of Makena and Corey Bridges of Multiverse. That’s because Dusan is interested mostly int he clash of philosophies about where virtual worlds are going: But it leaves a question: are virtual worlds places? Or will the technologies that enable 3D spaces become so ubiquitous that we’ll stop thinking of them as distinct places? Because in Raph’s view, the tools and technologies to create 3D artefacts, the system for managing your avatar and identity should be EXPRESSION-agnostic. In other words, we should have the tools for creating content and then be able to seamlessly publish that content to cell phones, browsers, Flash, separate clients – whatever, it’s not the viewer, it’s in the engine from which content is derived and creating standards and tools for expressing the content from that engine. [...]
[...] new SLim chat client for Second Life may have hit the streets too early but having seen it at VW08 and talked to the [...]
On 09.06.08 ichabod Antfarm said:
Hi,
Object code means code that has been compiled into machine-readable form (i.e. not the human readable source code). I gather that they will be releasing an API which will allow programmers to place calls to functions in the object code and thereby get access to the functionality without making the orginal source available. This is what, in Windows, is called a DLL (dynamic link library.)
This is a wonderful example of how virtual environments can serve as an on-demand collaborative mini application for enterprises.
Thanks for sharing
On 09.06.08 ichabod Antfarm said:
oh and since I am still in geek pontifical mode. API is Application Program Interface and SDK is Software Development Kit. They are, more or less, used interchangeably. I stop now.
Funny, but true. Corporeality prejudices do indeed occur throughout virtuality. I tend to prefer the whimsical furry avatars, but after many comments during some professional events in Second Life, I decided to have at ready a human avatar…just in case.
I assume having a bizzare or creative avatar would be a bonus if interviewing in-world for a creative type position.
Sorry dusan, this guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about. First of all the Web by creation and definition is a 2D experience of links. A picture may be worth a thousand words, but not in terms of offering needed information like the Web does. The web is but one of many Internet protocols, in this case “www” like ftp, pop3 and others. A 3D experience will only succeed as a new protocol, not shoving plug-in based interfaces to web pages.
The web is made up of pages, not necessarily always about one topic, but readable regardless of length and composed of various media limited only by client-side resources. A 3D experience is bound by server-side resources necessary to serve users in the same space. The Web is disconnected and fast for it while 3D is constant and managed and bound by many constant connections.
Virtual Worlds offer a contiguous experience (or they should) while the Web offers a connected through disconnected one. There will never be a 3D web and there shouldn’t be, the Web has been defined. Regardless of additions like AJAX it is still defined. Let the 3D experience find its own separate but compelling definition.
[...] push this idiocy. Dusan Writer recently posted a link to another writer’s coverage of Second Life: Dusan Writer’s Metaverse Communications Expert Vouches for 3D Web Sorry dusan, this guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about. First of all the Web by creation and [...]
The issue of whether 3D worlds will become “like the Web” is one of those conventional wisdoms floating around that I take exception to. I think it’s a failure of imagination to picture the metaverse as either: the “flat” Web is disappearing, and the 3D Web will be neither a contiguous space of its own nor something cobbled to the back of HTML.
As I reported from VW08, you see some of this in the argument, er, I should say discussion between Raph Koster and the Lab – two philosophies of how virtual worlds will evolve, and yet I’m of the belief that while there’s room for both, neither of them are fully “right”.
Thanks Dusan. Jordan still thinks I’m on something hallucinogenic. There will always be a place for online ads, but within the next several years, I think we are also going to see an increase in the revenue models built on micropayments. Velicia’s comment is a perfect example; anyone would balk at paying $50 for ANYTHING, but tiny little things over the course of a pay period will add up. That’s how Amazon makes money on Amazon Prime; even frequent users will end up buying MORE things from Amazon over the course of the year based on the free 2-day shipping. It’s worth it to avoid a trip to the store, and the key is to make consumers think they aren’t spending that much money.
Micropayments have been shown to work in virtual worlds, the problem is that on the rest of the Web there’s so much friction between your cash and spending it. Until you convert money into some sort of denomination it’s hard to get you into a micro-spending spree. It baffles me why there’s not a more efficient system. I’d gladly pay a few cents here and there for reading a really great article, (voluntary payment maybe but I think of it like a tip jar in Second Life – easy to do, small enough that you don’t feel it, but adds up for the receiver). Or think iTunes – it’s easy to spend $.99 – but that’s after you register, after you load up your account or link it to PayPal and all that.
I mean – if the Long Tail theory is right (and sure, it is, I just have problems with the idea that it replaces traditional media models – all it does is supplant one large distribution channel for another, although content developers can still pick up sales at the long end of the long tail where they couldn’t before) then the monetization of that needs to be matched with a long tail finance model.
Does any of this mean that advertising is dead? Of course not. But micropayments will be the largest driver of economics on the Web and in virtual worlds and games, especially if this last barrier, the creation of virtual wallets say, is overcome.
Tremendous recap – and great blogpost title btw. I have nothing but admiration for this lot. Thank you for posting this, Dusan. It’s the next best thing to being there.
I’d say as a speaker on that panel, those translations are very bang on – and despite David not finishing that sentence, yes we want people to come in, test code and submit feedback.
Our mailing lists are the best spot for more drawn out discussions, for code contributions (including alternate modules, implementations, etc) put them on our mantis tracker (and also the mailing list if it touches core code), the only consideration for submitting code is our coding policy (http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Contributions_Policy)
That’s really an interesting take. The common wisdom in the industry is that without something entertaining to do, people don’t form social bonds — so just as Puzzle Pirates relies on the gameplay to create social bonds, SL relies on building, and the activities users have built, to create the social bonds.
So “the off-chance hope that in entertaining them they create social bonds with each other” is currently considered to be the biggest chance, just about. What would you suggest is the alternate approach?
On 09.08.08 Annyka Bekkers said:
“so we work hard to keep our workload reasonable.”
Is it just me, or does that sound an awful lot like “we work hard at not working too hard at all” ?
On 09.09.08 Anonymus-Not said:
wrong wrong wrong, they get it all wrong. if they were still a lab they would try to make an OS out of Second Life, not trying to reach for the masses. (it’s all for the profit now, i guess.)
implementing functions for editing documents, managing pictures and browsing the internet, this shouldn’t be that hard and while they keep on developing things they could enable users to run programs FROM SL, like launching them FROM SL.
they should really try this, putting the whole thing up on a raw linux distro, maybe this could be called SLix or something.
i know it’s a huge task, but they have the $ from land tiers anyway…
On 09.09.08 David Crespo said:
Odd, this announcement also slipped by the developer community:
If you saw the booth at the VW Expo, you would of seen Rivers Run Red almost merged in with Linden Lab. I also saw a demo of their Immersive Workspaces web application to 3d space.
Hahaha – oh dear. Yeah, you’re right Raph. It’s what you get for live blogging it and then not thinking too much before you hit publish.
I guess my issue is sort of philosophical. And I don’t mean to pick on SmallWorlds, but to use it as an example, but when it was launched it wasn’t a world. It was a series of semi entertaining games. When you played the games, you had a little cartoon avatar that stood there, that you could buy clothes for, and that could chat with other people standing 2-dimensionally in a sort of lobby. It felt like “bolt-on” social bonding. The mechanisms for socializing were disconnected from the purpose of the space.
It felt like going to an arcade when I was a kid – you might be in an arcade, you might be standing beside someone, and your connection to other people might be about sharing a few tips on how to clear a level or shoot the asteroids or whatever, but it didn’t make it a ‘world’. The ‘world’ part of a video arcade existed outside the arcade itself – maybe you meet people and maybe you go out to a movie with them or head home to play on your Commodore, but the arcade was a space in which there were games and people collided because they were there for the entertainment, but it didn’t make it a world.
I like Prok’s definition: a virtual world feels like a place, it has other people in it, and it has drama.
The sense of drama in an arcade could be around getting the high score. Plunking your allowance down on the off chance you could hit the top of the leader board. And sometimes games would allow two players and that was about as close as you got…competition as the source of emergent experience, but within a narrow window.
So the philosophical point, I guess, or maybe one of nuance, is a question of whether the mechanics of the space facilitate shared drama. Does sociality (which gives us the definition of a world) emerge from the mechanics of game play – shared quests, guilds, group competitions, sharing archetypes, that kind of thing….does it create rich social experiences.
It’s the same, to a degree, with browser-based rooms: just because I can fill my house with youTube videos, that doesn’t mean that sociality emerges – I either port it in, like with Vivaty where you invite your Facebook friends, in which case you’re extending a real social network into a virtual space, or you find other mechanics to facilitate it like the ability to co-create objects.
As I’m writing this, I’m bumping up against the wall of my own fuzziness. Maybe this deserves a longer post. But I’ve been fascinated by the game field’s struggle to add “social media tools” to games, and by the idea that virtual worlds need games to create stickiness, and by the concept of social media embedding games like Facebook. Is Facebook a world? Is it a world if you have a series of games and then add avatars around the games?
I think there’s something here about how tightly coupled the ‘game experiences’ are to the sociality.
My issue is somehow related to the idea that the “publish” model makes the social aspect peripheral to the mechanics of the space itself. That without the user generating content and without sociality emerging from the mechanics of the space then these environments sort of take the attitude of “we’ll provide some entertainment, you provide the social bonding and stick around a while because of it”.
Thanks for keeping me honest though, I think I’m going to need to do a better job articulating whatever it is that bugs me about some of these business models.
(Oh, and while we’re at it…I think that Spore ended up doing much the same thing. It is NOT a world. It’s a game. Judged as a game it has some beautiful mechanics at least in the first few phases, but I really have a hard time calling it an MMO. The social stuff feels like an add-on and doesn’t turn it into a world – it turns it viral maybe, but doesn’t make it a world.)
I have to say I was very impressed with the Rivers Run Red application. Not because it included a robust Web workspace coupled with the builds in SL, but because it did it based on the core mechanics currently in SL itself.
This idea that SL needs to merge with the Web is sort of misleading – SL already HAS merged with the Web. SLExchange, blogs, the Loco Pocos Web site and community, Rivers Run Red, wikis, OnRez…all of them are integrated Web-based applications that help facilitate multi-platform ways of accessing SL-centric content.
I’m with Anonymous however – I’d like to see Web content IN SL in a more robust way, without breaking the Grid, and without turning it into a wasteland of Web-based texturing. I’ve seen art exhibits, for example, that generate textures on prims based on Flickr streams….you input a word, the textures display all the photos tagged with that word.
Embedded Flash applications in world that you can actually click and interact with, and opening the door to collaborating to a degree on documents (much like Qwak say) would open up a new richness of content. Whether the Grid can sustain this level of dynamic content is a real issue, I imagine.
How SL needs to be embedded in the rest of the Web, I’m not sure….but if they’re headed down the Lively path of embedding mini SL Grids in my Facebook profile, forget it. Embed my avatar maybe and link it to SLim, but don’t ever forget that a virtue of SL is the sense of a contiguous space (even when it isn’t) and the feeling that it’s a world not a mini application embedded all over the Web.
[...] in LA I had a chance to get more information on Blue Mars, about which I’ve blogged before here and here. Now – it’s vapour until it’s in alpha or closed Beta, but it sure looks [...]
[...] I had a chance to get more information on Blue Mars, about which I’ve blogged before here and here. Now – it’s vapour until it’s in alpha or closed Beta, but it sure looks impressive. [...]
[...] panel discussion or visiting another booth and asked about 3d in the browser. For instance, here is a blog post by “Dusan Writer” where the following is noted from one panel discussion: “…plug-ins or downloads mean you’re [...]
On 09.10.08 Prokofy Neva said:
You couldn’t be more wrong, and more stubbornly wrong.
Imprudence is exactly the wrong way to go, and your celebration of it is suspect, given your track record as someone more thoughtful and considerate, and supposedly driven by some notion of public service with this viewer contest of yours.
There is nothing wrong with the search, Dusan. Like so many people, you are stuck on using SEARCH ALL, most likely, it returns all the ridiculous junk the Lindens have put in it, and it becomes useful. Once you stop trying to use SL as Google, and use it as amazon.com with *tabs* you will find it more intuitive. It’s a world. It has classifications. It’s not a big telephone book or search engine. It’s a world. The search functions best with the places tab for finding things because things aren’t on pages, Dusan, they are *in places* and place *matters* in SL.
The open sourcing of the viewer is a sop — it was handed out to these rabidly extremist tekkies in the resident population, and some of their Lindens friends, as something for them to gnaw on while LL lined up its ducks for the broader concept of entirely opensourcing the server code or licensing the connection to the asset servers. That’s all. It can’t be taken seriously on its own terms.
I feel sorry for you spending so much money in what now appears to have been a bid to get the Lindens to notice you and do what you want, and not *really* about finding the best viewer. Again, I thought better of you.
Your whining and attacks on the Lindens now for not grabbing your viewer or getting excited about what three tekkie designer nerds came up with, even being the same kind of nerds themselves, let’s me know that you viewed this exercise ultimately like Impudence — trying to overthrow the publicly-supported viewer to impose your own views, even over the Lindens’ heads, who are the only barrier between the extremism represented by you and your comrades and the rest of us.
And what’s more, you failed to understand the Lindens’ psychology. They don’t want excellence and competition from their residents; that makes them mean and jealous. They want sycophants. Fanboyz.
You’re not supposed to excel, Dusan. You’re supposed to be mediocre, and make it all seem like any bright idea is all theirs.
I’m personally glad my own odyssey in reaching this understanding was faster and far less expensive than yours, when I tried to do a railroad sites building contest in concert with their rail stations building contest. It was a total flop because the Lindens enable griefers to destroy any initiatives like that but also kill it by their own indifference or active snarkiness.
Firefox is a nuisance. It has so many annoyances. You’re blind to all that. It’s paid for by a rich man as a hobby, pretending that things like this in fact are made for free by “thecommunity”. It’s a shill.
The one thing I will agree with you about is the Lindens’ lack of a Big Idea when they tout connectivity for connectivity’s sake. This is the fad now. It’s all about the pipeline and not the content. But that’s because they want to be the only wants to fill in the content.
On 09.10.08 Prokofy Neva said:
Um, no.
Standards do not “come from code”. First, people have to have a common understanding and an enterprise they find mutually acceptable, then they code what it needs.
Doing it backwards, as the geeks around SL keep doing, merely dooms it to irrelevance forever.
Here’s some thinner for your Kool-Aid.
1. OpenSim is not “driving innovation”. They have not produced anything different than an inferior reverse-engineered copy of SL. RealExtend isn’t interesting without a context of community and commerce, neither of which are present for OS.
2. Opensource isn’t about innovation; it’s about copying and taking things for free. I think the critique that Maklin Deckard keeps making on my blog, as a programmer himself, is valid: opensourceniks just make knock-offs of other people’s work, Gimp for PhotoShop, etc. They aren’t making anything that stands along as unique and original.
3. One of the shills that the OS people wield out for Firefox, or for their demand that VWs be “open” or have *their* standards, is that they want people to endlessly “build on modules” (like the muddle that is Moodle — God, a mess). But…these aren’t useful or valid because the general public only becomes annoyed with the excessive choices and lack of usability and fixability. The tabs of Mozilla are its most annoying feature, even though it’s supposed to be its unique proposition.
4. I detect a note of humour in your remarks about “OpenSim has a lot of people and adults” — well, so what? IBM is huge. It can afford to allow some of its long-timer programmers to go and play on SL and it doesn’t matter if they accomplish anything, they just keep their hand in.
5. Again, do NOT look to these people to make standards, they really can’t find their ass with both hands, as you clearly indicate in this discussion. They are unable to explain what they do even to an admiring geek or semi-geek public, let along the public at large, and it’s because they just fool around. Standards are made by grown-up real companies that have a stake in a real market, not rich people’s VC or their own money.
6. Policy should not arise from coding. Policies have to be for people, publics, stakeholders, businesses — and not coders. Coders should NOT make policy. Their voice is only one among many that have to be heard and sifted through, and often not the most practical or useful voice — they all took the economy, buy-sell, and IP out of their worlds, which make them useless.
In fact, David Levine is wrong. These people *do* bite. They bite *hard* and they grind institutions and values to bits and spit them out. They are destroying the economy and the successes SL enjoyed until now with community and commerce, and pretending this is “what disruptive technology does”. It doesn’t. They are not needed. No one needs interoperability at this point, and they are wasting their time.
It’s also a subterfuge to distract from the fact that LL doesn’t have its own business model lined up yet.
On 09.10.08 Prokofy Neva said:
and to burn in another point:
Re: “You get the mechanisms in place first and then run policy in parallel” and others noted that social models, role transparency and trust were significant issues that would need to be addressed.
No, no, no, a thousand times NO. Code may come in the form of Lego parts; people’s needs, institutions, requirements for business are not so many little components. They are complex systems and they have to drive the coding, not visa versa.
This is a ruse cooked up by extremist coders who want to weld into their code certain political and economic decisions, like “let’s not have copy/mod/transfer because it’s too hard to maintain, let people call their lawyers”.
So they reduce this vital, living, NECESSARY part of the SL economy to a mere “module” that can be “added on” — or not.
Re: “Whether decisions are being made at the granular level that will later restrict the range of policy I have no idea – I’m not a geek. And where the forums will be for testing various notions of standards and policy is somewhat unclear.”
Uh, yeah, Dusan. You got that right. Of *course* that’s what is happening now. And you are nuts to be so blase about it.
[...] took an opportunity to use Dusan Writer’s post on ray traced metaversions to take a shot at Rezzable’s sim entrance fees, but really the part of the post that was of [...]
Anyone familiar with web browsers will tell you that Opera originated tabs. (Opera is a for-profit company; perhaps that, or the fact that IE7 now supports tabs, will ennoble them for Prokofy. In any case, there’s nothing in any browser that forces one to use tabs.)
Also common knowledge: IE started out as a hacked version of Mosaic, which was developed at the University of Illinois; what’s that again about open source only being able to imitate?
(I note also that here in the US we used to say that about the Japanese. Remember also Samuel Slater, who brought the Industrial Revolution to the US with what we might now call industrial espionage. Those darned Americans–they only knew how to copy things.)
Thanks for the comments. I’m going to follow-up with another post but I’d like to respond quickly to a few things.
The first is that I’ve found it impossible to discuss the idea of standards and code without first trying to grapple with the basis for the claim. And as I hope I made clear in the post, what I heard because of how it was communicated and what was meant are POSSIBLY two different things. On the one hand, there’s a dichotomy between two opposing views: standards versus code versus code from standards – but the openSim philosophy also injects more nuance into the debate by then injecting the “parallel policy” argument – so I’d rather also inject more nuance into the discussion as well….which is the subject of my next post on the subject.
A few very quick specific points:
1) My comment on innovation was compared to everything else on show at VW08. There is incredible innovation happening in OpenSim. I won’t list them all – you read UgoTrade, you’ve seen some of the innovations. And I’m not saying these innovations are appropriate for Second Life, but it really is a source of continual and significant structural innovation. Enhanced avatars, true browser-based clients, full integration with Web-based systems, procedural objects, artificial intelligence, mesh-based objects. Compared to the Lab, the level of innovation is continual and significant, but my point was in comparison to the other virtual world platforms at VW08 rather than as a specific reference to SL.
2. Yes, it was a knock-off, but as I said in my post they “may have used Second Life as its jumping off point, but that has moved well beyond that.”
3. I don’t believe I made a comment on whether I thought OpenSim was “right” or whether the modular architecture is a long-term solution to the objective of achieving ubiquity. Interesting, the guy from Intel said that part of their objective in working on OpenSim isn’t solely because they think it’s going to be the de facto standard, but rather that by being involved they get to test and learn about how virtual worlds work and, I assume, apply this knowledge to wider or other virtual world initiatives. So even the people involved in OS aren’t saying it will be THE standard, but they’re saying that the standards evolving from it may have applications elsewhere.
4. Yes, humor.
5. Yes, there’s a communication issue, I think. And again, what gets lost is the nuance – the heart of the matter is the comment that “policies evolve in parallel” but no one explained how, or who’s in charge.
6. I agree. And I don’t actually think they said that policy evolves from code. They said that standards evolve from code, and that policy then evolves in parallel. But again, this is the heart of the issue.
And to be honest, and I’ve posted about this numerous times, so it’s not a question of suddenly drinking the OpenSim Kool Aid – I haven’t changed my opinion that this sort of throw-away line or approach of letting policy “evolve” (in parallel or not) is a source of incredible concern to me, especially as it relates to identity and trust.
I don’t mean to sound blase – I’m not. But I really want to understand. And I want to understand because I really do believe that OS is a source of incredible innovation. And IF it’s a source of innovation then it’s not just going to sort of wither away – and so I’m committed to trying to understand it, as best as a non-geek can, and to frame the context from which they propose to derive policy so that I can contribute in a meaningful way even if it ends up being that all I can say is “NO NO NO”.
I had recently found myself yet again attempting to describe SL to someone who had no idea of virtual worlds. It is tough to know just what dimensions to outline. As I watched the video I first started thinking it was doing a good job but felt increasingly squeamish imagining it as the first introduction. But then, asking myself why they made it, I looked at the website’s ‘about’ page (http://reason.tv/about/) and saw their mission is to talk about “compelling stories about freedom from all corners [sic] of the internet…”
Reflecting on that, I think they do a decent surface skim on that dimension of SL.
(in a scene from a dance club, did I see Drew Carey’s AV shirtless and with really creepy back-hair? hehehe)
I think that they did a better job at explaining the possibilities in SL than any single news report on SL. They did include the sex side but by no means limited their report to that.
Though the machinima was crappy, low fps and their details off the mark – I am pleased to see that they didn’t bash SL.
[...] has been hired to bring stability to the Grid. As I pointed out in a previous post, Frank’s background at AOL and MCI wasn’t just about geeky coding stuff, it was also [...]
[...] can make SL seem “visiony” again, instead of sounding defensive about the potential and comparing it to Warcraft or [...]
On 09.13.08 Phrig Frog said:
Hi Dusan,
I thought SLim was great when I heard about it. I’ve been wishing there was an IM client I could use to log in and talk to friends, when I didn’t have my gaming computer close-at-hand (for instance on my laptop that doesn’t have good enough graphics) for ages! I was impressed that LL though of this – which, now maybe they didn’t. I’d love to try it out but thus far haven’t been able to find the download link yet.
I don’t get your point. He is working for Linden Lab, right? So he’s a Linden, isn’t he?
Maybe you were looking for an avatar name? I don’t see why he needs that to work on infrastructure issues. Maybe he has an avatar or three but just didn’t bother to mention. Either way, what would it matter to accomplishing his tasks?
You seriously don’t see the implications if this was conscious Pais? Dear me.
Heck – why did you need an avatar name to reply to this post – just use your real name. And if you INSIST on using your avatar name like some child would, hiding behind anonymity like, well, like you have something to hide, then maybe this isn’t the Grid for you anymore.
In a community that has been based from the beginning on no cross-over to real world identity, you don’t at all find it troubling that the first time of which I’m aware a key Linden staff member isn’t using a “Linden” name?
Hmmm. Maybe what it is is they want to communicate to the rest of the world that they’re adults with names and titles. People with avatar names will become those damn kooky residents with fake personas who were part of that nutty frontier that Mitch referred to who will have to live with all the change to come and I guess decamp to openLife – or maybe you’re the one Philip referred to – the one with too much time on your hands?
And finally, if you’re saying that you don’t even think Ambrose needs to LOG IN to work on infrastructure issues, um…OK. I guess you’re right. It’s just wires, a product, a bunch of connectivity. He needs absolutely no association with the community, to attend office hours to hear people’s concerns or to meet in world with other Linden staffers (which is the main way that Linden meets, of course, seeing as they have offices on 4 continents or whatever it is).
As I said, this is either unintentional or signals a shift: the blog is for real people talking to “real people” not to kooky residents. OR, Linden is starting the shift to being able to choose whether you use your real name, a shift in policy that’s received no resident feedback other than a quick survey at log-in as to whether you’d PAY for it.
Which, if the latter is the case, then I predict the kind of split within the community that was expected when voice was introduced and a further shredding of the SL culture, such as it remains.
In my follow-up post I think I was a little more positive about SLim as a platform for future development including links to group chats and notices, a “sort friends” feature, etc.
They never meant to release it, they meant to announce it. I’d expect an “RC” roll-out next week based on what Vivox told me, or within a month if it’s like other Linden products.
Frank is a Linden. He’s FJ Linden, and I think he’s a great addition to the community of Lindens, that the practical work he’s here to do will make things in SL better for all of us.
Yikes, methinks I touched a nerve. Since it is an election weirdstorm in my meatspace, I will weasel to say my question was feigning ignorance, playing devil’s avocate, to provoke you to be more explicit about what you were really trying to imply when you point out that Frank was too frankly un-virtual.
On the other hand, a good portion of his discussion was to reference his experience and background, which was accomplished under his RL moniker – one that is well know enough to be of import both to establish an indication of what’s to come, but perhaps also to bolster confidence in the future of SL(tm).
Thanks Katt for the clarification. I have no issue with Frank’s qualifications, but I fear that Lindens won’t be Lindens anymore, that Residents will start being real people, and that we’ll all have to adopt the IBM dress code and thus I’ll have to throw out half my wardrobe. Glad to hear FJ is a Linden.
I don’t see what all the fuss is about. I was introduced to him as FJ Linden by Katt Linden via her post on twitter (http://twitter.com/Katt_Linden/statuses/920530091) and on the post that you directly referred to it says FJ Linden. He is just a “recent hire” as he said on his blog and want to introduce himself.
[...] I’ve posted before about how the issues around avatar identity will keep getting more complex: as our avatars become [...]
On 09.15.08 Anonymus-Not said:
i hate those hypocrites… oh my god, racist, racist…
why shouldnt a black guy look _strange_ to me when in my whole life i hardly met one aside from walking past the street once or twice a year?
i dont hate him. i dont like him. hes just another guy. but hypocrites like these who have no better things to do than making _stupid_ surveys can really p.ss me off.
also if every furry i have ever met is _weird_ why shouldnt i be precautious when meeting the next one?
or why shouldnt i be disgusted by their ‘yiff’? maybe they should do something for themselves so people dont get wary when they see one.
also*2 if someone is ugly, then he is ugly, period. you shouldnt remind him everytime that hes ugly, but he is ugly.
I think it is interesting to try out some experiments like this. SL has made me wonder if humans have an ability (as of yet scientifically unmeasured) to sense another human other than through the normal senses. More to the point: if a given avatar is operated by different humans, would that avatar have a different “feel” when it interacted with others?
A.I. in Second Life is getting ‘en vogue’ as it seems. For reference I plug the interview with David Bourguignon of MASA Group fame: http://www.web3d-blog.de/?p=195
I was also fascinated by the Fairyverse folks who had a booth at VW08 – Hamlet posted about them on NWN. Unfortunate name choice, I’d say, and more advanced than you’d think on first glance:
I was inwardly disgusted when my brother video taped our dad’s funeral, including the open coffin. I didn’t say anything to him, though, allowing him to confront the death in his own way. I can only reflect on the vast chasms of differences between how my brother and I interact with the universe. For instance, maybe, I ponder, it allowed him to distance himself from the immediate moment by putting it in a virtual (taped/televised) slot in his mind. Or maybe he is just creepy and socially inept.
I have to give some of the same slack to a funeral twitterati – perhaps they are so infatuated in buffering reality in this way that the habit carries over to inappropriate moments. (I don’t want to check to see if they document their digestive tract.) Perhaps they were doing this for the benefit of not the whole web, but really a particular person or two that were not able to attend the funeral. In the same vein, perhaps they had friends that were supporting them, and this bit of the web’s virtuosity of connectivity and immediacy gave them a blanket of support.
I was getting text messages from Pais’ SL friends while the RL me sat vigil watching someone die. In those sad and loneliest moments of my RL in the wee hours of the morning, my SL friends seven time zones ahead of me were awake and reaching through whatever technology could bring us together in that hospital room… a cell phone text message.
On the surface, since we can see those twitters in public webspace, it is easy to think the author was a callous wank. Perhaps s/he’s just another one of us souls wondering the wilderness of experience, and a thread of technology helped them connect somewhere with another soul or two that could help give meaning and comfort.
On 09.15.08 Dirk Krause said:
Since I am in commenting mode: @”Maybe it does after you’ve spent 14 hours fixing …” – of course you are absolutely right.
I think the (virtual) world is in need of not only a more up-to-date viewer but rather a set of viewers or at least viewer modes optimized for different use cases.
One of these use cases could be handled by a business mode where exactly these communication and collaboration features that Phil is pointing out are simplified to the max.
But I dont think that one of the alternate viewer developers (currently coming up like Xenki or Imprudence) or Lindens themselves (currently in the process of revamping the UI) have something like this on their list …
Pais – you’re absolutely right. There are all kinds of media and forms we use to communicate feeling. We mediate our feelings because it’s the way we know how, maybe – and cutting off the technology doesn’t mean that we somehow become authentic, nor does using technology make us unauthentic.
But I do think there’s something to be said for the occasional experience unmediated by technology. And to be honest, I think I’d put funerals WAAAAY up on the list of milestones in which I would have hoped that we could hold off the intrusion of Blackberrys and twitter streams.
But in this particular instance the Twittering wasn’t from a family member, it was a member of the news media. The reporter decided that his readers – people who didn’t know the family other than through the front page of the paper, would like to be kept posted BY THE MINUTE what was happening.
Which brings us to the question of the reporter’s role – I mean, is this any different than say televising, hmm…Lady Di’s funeral say. We’re all spectators? Does the way in which it’s reported matter? Is a Twitter stream better or worse than radio or TV? Or am I betraying a sort of ‘yesterday bias’ – I’m just not as young and hip as I never was kind of thing.
My whole reaction to this on so many levels is probably the most interesting thing about the whole story.
Ugh. I didn’t realize it was a reporter doing the twitter. That makes most, if not all, of my discussion irrelevant.
On 09.16.08 WIdget Whiteberry said:
Seems to me that the reporter transformed the funeral into content for his/her media stream …. reducing a profoundly complex, layered ritual into data bits… ick.
I think that you’re right to focus on the development culture of the Linden Lab viewer. I’ve not been involved in large open source projects for all that long, but even in that short time I’ve seen that it’s easy to open source a project, but much, much harder to build a truly collaborative development culture around it.
In the OpenSimulator project we try very hard to maintain such a culture. I think that it’s much easier for us because we’ve always been an open source project. All our use cases, patches and documentation are wikified, mailing listed or blogged. Moreover, in OpenSimulator no one company even comes close to dominating (and hopefully never will), so there’s no default position where things are much more effectively done within a company for long rather than in public. We’re far from perfect, but I think that we do have a culture where as much of the development process as possible is open, public and collaborative.
Personally, I think that Linden Lab will in fact move in the direction of greater collaboration with the viewer development culture as the potential for this to grow the general community and their own business increases. However, it’s a hard road to get from there to here, involving both process and social changes.
On 09.16.08 David Crespo said:
How RBK should of handled it, this was back in 2006!
I did some work on the sim for the developer, back in the day…
This is like comparing oranges and apples. This was also pre-scultpie and a lot of other options we take for granted today.
Did you also know that you could click the avatar’s shoe configuration, it would then click out to the RBK website and you could order that actual shoe for real in that configuration?
The store wasn’t just a ’shoe store’ they also sold merchandise, the Scarlet Heart’s range of products and NBA shoes… (full disclosure I worked on the clothing range as a freelancer.)
My suggestion is, if you’re going to write an article about an SL historic project, do your research correctly.
You’re also repeating an old story, we’ve been here before and the experiment was just that, an experiment. Good luck to the new retailers of shoes in SL, we’re all on a journey here, learning from the previous projects to build more compelling experiences. As they say, we’re all standing on the shoulders of giants.
Hey David – and thanks for the correction. Sure it’s an old story….and really this is meant partly as a tongue-in-cheek reminder of whence we came.
Maybe my memory is fuzzy. What I do remember is spending a lot of time in that store because I was fascinated with how brands might take advantage of virtual worlds. I don’t remember other merchandise but then I do recall the store was this massive place with a few kiosks and then the shoe configuration booths and maybe the other merchandise was at the other side of the store, which seemed like a sim away at the time (I was a noob, so who knows).
Now, as a noob maybe I missed the button where I could order the “real shoe” – how many orders did you say you got again?
Look – all of this is experimental. You’re beautiful, wonderful, a giant David, congratulations. As you know, I don’t typically dwell on the ancient past, thinking back to the ‘good old days’ when there was more of a culture and people were more polite and the brands were piling on not wanting to miss out on the next best thing.
Funny how none of them were LAUNCHED as experiments – I don’t remember press releases saying “BMW is trying an EXPERIMENT in Second Life, something at which they expect to fail but learn from it”, interesting how it’s only an experiment after its done, similar to ESC and the CSI build “Oh, it was never MEANT to drive traffic or be a long-term thing” when all the quotes from the launch made them sound like they fully expected to change the media landscape or whatever. I suppose they said “NO” to the bridge to nowhere.
Anyways – again….all of those ‘experiments’ were useful in their way. The fact that every company piled on media hype contributed to a sense of promises not delivered.
I’m of the opinion that we’re headed down the same course today. When Philip claims that business collaboration in virtual worlds is EASY, that it’s significant – I mean, give me a break.
Those who don’t learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Thank you, Dusan. I’m happy to report that Jonas and Hung reached their modest fundraising goals.
Namav, who I believe will continue to make a huge impact on public policy regarding health and disability, is finally* receiving a level of rehab care that will allow him to live a fuller and even more productive life. It is, however, lonely to be hospitalized in a new city.
Really this is no different from real life. At job interviews people are expected to put forward a professional demeanor. Nobody dresses during their off-hours the way they would for a job interview, whether they like puttering around in a garden or wearing leather hoods and getting strapped to a whipping post. Part of what the interviewers are looking for in a candidate is the ability to put aside their own entertainment in order to represent the company hiring them. So yes, if you show up with a bird’s head and wings you may find the recruiter is less than anxious to place you. But the same thing would happen in real life if you showed up in gardening clothes or fetish gear.
[...] about why I think they’ve moved beyond “copying code” – I touched on all that in my post and follow-up comments by Prok and others. I do believe that OpenSim is pushing the envelope on [...]
[...] game gods and their ban buttons. One of the most intriguing recent developments was Lively and I previously wrote about their struggles with the TOS, enforcement, and ‘adult [...]
Long time reader and first time commenter… I’ve enjoyed your posts so far, but I have to say I think you’re missing the point on this one.
“With uniform rights as an avatar, I feel more secure in my search for that promise than I do in interpreting the fine print of someone’s tossed-together, modularized TOS.”
Okay… for a start… Raph’s rights are for players, not avatars… the two are completely different things.
A universal bill of rights for avatars (or players) just won’t work.
Different world builders are going to want different rules for their worlds. Raph is working out a set of rules for his world(s), which is fine, but there are always going to be people who want to set up worlds with different rules. A Christian world is going to have a very different set of rules from a Gorean world. This is why Linden Lab has had so many problems coming up with a lowest-common-denominator set of rules for everyone.
And what about jurisdiction? Everyone in SL misses out on gambling because of US laws. And age of consent gets lowered to the lowest in the world.
This is where world-building tools like OpenSim come in. OpenSim is just software, like Apache is software (whereas Raph is running a service, like Linden Lab… or flickr or YouTube). When someone sets up a webhosting business they say “this is what you can and can’t do on your website” if you choose to host with us. They get lawyers to develop their TOS which is relevant to their situation and context (e.g. the laws that apply where they are hosted). If you don’t like their TOS, you take your website business elsewhere.
OpenSim grid hosting services will operate the same way. And because OpenSim is modular and extensible, if there is a feature required to support a specific TOS it can be added. For example, if a Christian TOS doesn’t allow nudity I’m sure they can add a patch that ensures that even when unclothed an avatar’s private parts are covered with underwear.
So no… TOS will not be tossed together… they will be developed by lawyers familiar with the issues customising them for different grids.
Raph’s list is a good template, but it will be taken and modified appropriately. In parallel, virtual world building software will be developed to ensure the desired TOS is technically possible.
Addendum: In my Christian underwear example I didn’t mean to suggest that all behaviours will be controlled by software. Obviously the more flexible a world is the more reliance there will have to be on a TOS to govern user’s behaviour. My point was the TOS isn’t embedded in, or determined by the software, which is what you seem to be implying.
Thanks Sean, your comments are really useful because you’ve pointed out my lack of care in defining my terms. You found the same thing, in your correction to your initial comments (although I disagree, about which more later).
So first – and I want to make this as clear as I can because these are confusing waters.
First, I’m not implying that OpenSim NEEDS a universal TOS. In fact, my comments about OpenSim are meant to be related to policy, not the TOS – although I do use the example of a menu or buffet from which folks will eventually construct their own individual terms of service.
I think that policy is important and I also believe that there are a few fundamental policies that should underpin the development of OpenSim, and that these policies should be articulated sooner rather than later….and the OpenSim community seems to agree that there’s a need for this, they talk about developing policy in parallel to code.
What arises from policy are a number of things. It might be a EULA, a TOS, a storage system, central registration, or enhancements to the code. Policy is arising right now, for example, through AWG and interoperability with Second Life. I’m not saying I agree with where those policies or headed or that they’ve been sorted out yet – but policy is arising because no matter how many times I hear that OpenSim is like Apache, even Apache is built against certain policies.
I buy conceptually that OpenSim is a platform, it’s not a world. I’ve read the arguments, I’ve heard them talk about it, and hey – who can’t agree with Tarah5 Oh at UgoTrade? It’s a bunch of bits and pieces from which worlds will arise. Those bits and pieces will be assembled into worlds when you add to them all the stuff that makes a world – sociality, place and drama as Prok says.
But that does NOT mean that policy doesn’t arise even before worlds are built. The best example I can come up with is still e-mail. I’m sure there are other examples or there are flaws with my example but whatever: e-mail is not a world (duh). It was built to let people send messages to each other. You don’t worry about how it’s going to be used, or Codes of Conduct over what the message contain, or rules over whether you should ever forward jokes to your entire friends list right? But the problem is, that policy WASN’T considered in how e-mail was developed (or maybe it was, they just didn’t know better). Because policy would say something like:
“E-mail should facilitate the option for the recipient to verify a trust relationship with the sender.”
If we had this type of policy, then maybe there would be no spam, and maybe I wouldn’t have a canceled ticket to Nigeria in my desk drawer.
That’s the type of thing I mean by policy.
Now, specifically with OpenSim, I’d propose that there are a lot of policies which if they were discussed and transparent and generally agreed upon would influence all those bits of code that make up this modularized platform from which worlds will emerge.
To give an example, and I’m making this up off the top of my head, but here goes:
“Users should have the ability to see what information about them is being communicated to individual servers.”
I’m thinking here of a parallel, say, to cookies. To the best of my knowledge, very little consideration has been given to user-side storage of digital identity data. I’d like to see a policy that says something like the above and then to see the code built and/or “scrubbed” to allow this policy to be executed. How would it work? Who knows, but what I’d like is that as I roam from grid to grid in the wide open future interoperable universe, that each grid sends me a packet of information, and that this packet is stored in a little “portfolio” which I always have the option of accessing. This portfolio would tell me what information has been collected and/or shared about me, what information has been transported from one grid to another, so that I have an ability to manage my identity. Now, this information could be a simple string: a series of 1s and 0s, each of them tagged to a particular type of information. Doesn’t matter what the mechanism is. What matters is that the fundamental policy of the “Apache platform” is that it should be built in a way where the gathering and sharing of user data isn’t hidden behind the veil of the platform owners, and that users have the right to know what’s going on behind the scenes.
I think if we had a policy that said “Systems should be built so that users always have the option of a) seeing what’s going on and b) because they have the right to see, modular systems can be built that will always allow them the option of not visiting sites/sims/grids where they don’t like how that information is handled.”
Think of it like your lag meter or FPS dashboard or whatever, except that in this case it’s an information flow widget.
OK, so I’m making this up off the cuff – but can you see what I mean by policy? A few universal principles about what the system should accomplish – not laws, but rather an articulation of some general principles. If this was a policy or principle, then as the little code bits were written they’d be mentally scrubbed for whether they aid or abet that principle.
Now, OpenSim is open source and all that and there will always be branches and hacks regardless of what policies are put in place. So, sooner or later, other policies will need to arise – there are standards in the code, but standards around things like trust and protection WILL need to arise. Think of it like a Verisign system for Web sites, or SSL (as soon as I give an example like that I always figure I’ll be jumped on for some giant hole, but it’s not my point whether these particular examples are the right ones, it’s that there are things that a USER looks for to assure trust, for example).
So, that’s what I mean with OpenSim. Policy not TOS. Because its open source, the policies will need to be quite broad. But these policies would help to shape what modules and codes get developed, would hopefully aggregate the developers to a degree around a few broad statements of principle, would create a sense of buy-in from the broader user community who doesn’t, frankly, CARE that it’s the Apache of virtual worlds.
And that latter is a critical point. Because OpenSim keeps going on and on about how this is like Apache. Users DON’T CARE.
Users didn’t care either that Web sites were built on HTML. They didn’t care that “The Web is as safe as using your credit card at a store – both are equally open to fraud and abuse.” They didn’t care about the stuff behind the scenes, what they wanted to know was “will I get ripped off on this big bad Web thing” and it was only when there was enough aggregation around a few policies that people started trusting the system, and seeing those little tick box signs on e-commerce sites, that they started buying stuff.
So, I hope I’ve clarified that what I’m saying OpenSim needs is a discussion of policy, around which I’d hope that the development community might rally, and in so doing would provide a focus to code development governed by a few broad principles that would hopefully become widely adopted.
But what I’m also saying is that even if they don’t, then bless them. OpenSim is still a technical innovation. It will still lead to a wider use of virtual world technologies. But I also think that the next wave of “deep innovation” will come from tackling the big challenges related to identity, trust, and portability. Because OpenSim isn’t the venue for that until you have large-scale experiments building on this “Apache-like” backbone, then it will be places like Metaplace that are first to see new approaches to commerce, microtransactions, identity toggling, etc. occur.
OK, so back to the TOS. I’d propose that Raph got it right when calling it avatar rights – it’s not a player that’s in a world, it’s their avatar. The player is subject to laws and whatever, the avatar is subject to the rules of the world, primarily governed by the TOS and its mechanisms of enforcement.
I’d propose that the EULA is the document that governs the player and the TOS is the document that governs the avatar, although the TOS can also be embedded in the EULA so that egregious damages under a TOS contravention can be pulled “out” of the world and applied to the real person – but the EULA is the vehicle for accomplishing this.
Thus, the TOS governs an avatar, because the damages and enforcement of claims is within the realm of what can be done to the avatar and the avatar’s possessions (or right to enter or use the space) rather than the player. The EULA governs whether the platform or other players can go after the player behind the avatar for damages and recourse outside of the direct actions WITHIN the platform – and it’s the EULA that opens the gateway to “real world law” rather than the TOS (which, again, is still embedded in a clause within the EULA).
So, if the TOS governs the avatar and the EULA governs the player, then isn’t software pretty much the only way that the TOS would apply, unless a judgment is “rolled up” into the EULA? Let’s not confuse the process of making or judging a claim here with enforcement, but I’d propose that software is the ONLY mediator for the enforcement of the TOS. That’s because the only tools that the platform owner HAS for enforcing the TOS are software-derived ones. It might not be like the underwear example, but all of the options are software-derived: banning, a message of warning, taking away objects or money, whatever. The TOS is meaningless if there is no equivalent software mechanism for enforcement. It’s ALL about the code. If it’s not about the code, then it’s EULA, and its courts.
And finally, I’ve heard this argument before about lawyers. And please. Give me a break. I was invited to a discussion of a TOS for an openSim program. There were no LAWYERS present, and there was no one who had the money or intention of using a lawyer – they were a bunch of people who thought “the risk is low, why bother with lawyers, we’ll just make this up on our own and swipe bits and pieces from other sites, and hopefully those OTHER sites used lawyers but even if they didn’t, who cares.”
I’d hazard a guess that 75% of privacy policies on Web sites were never vetted by lawyers – they were swiped off another site, or it was considered a low risk issues, and a lot of Web sites aren’t built and hosted in the US anyways where lawyers seem to stand on the street corners selling advice.
Now, having said that, I think you WILL see a few leaders who develop thoughtful Terms of Service AND EULAs, and that these get publicized and people pick up on them and so you end up with a few “templates”.
It’s kind of irrelevant – your point is correct. On OpenSim the whole objective is to let people tweak their approach to hosting worlds. I’m not particularly arguing against that. I suppose in conclusion because I’ve just commented more than I blogged…there is a great deal of ‘deep innovation’ arising at the intersection of games/social networks and virtual worlds, and that this deep innovation is arising not because of code but because of the application of code to different forms of policy.
OpenSim will eventually also be a source of this innovation, which is what I meant by the “I’m waiting for the rest of it.” In the meantime, the fact that OpenSim is currently for the most part an Apache rather than a source of innovative models around policy, it’s mostly technical.
One of the innovations I care about is how platforms view the user. As a user, Raph’s TOS is a model for how virtual worlds will stimulate a new level of innovation in which the user’s experience is shaped by an avatar-centric policy around rights.
It seems then that what you are talking about are the underlying protocols of how OpenSim works and interacts with other instances of OpenSim. Actually, a better example than email may be the Internet itself, as engineers are now saying if they had the opportunity to design it again they would do it in a way that would have more security built in, amongst other things.
As far as I can tell, the OpenSim team are alert to these types of issues, and are making the protocols and the software as extensible and flexible as possible so down the track they don’t say: “Hey… we should have built it so it can do X.” Hindsight provides 2020 vision, but all they can do is the best they can for now.
As for your example, I’m all for openness myself, but some grid owners might choose to not reveal what’s going on with my data behind the scenes. It’s their choice to do so, even though I may not choose to use their service. If their TOS says they have no obligation to make my data open and available, I can go to a grid where they say they do. It’s caveat emptor when I enter someone’s virtual world. It’s up to me to familiarise myself with their TOS in the same way I should be familiar with the laws of any country I visit in the real world. I can’t blame anyone but myself if I get busted for drinking alcohol on the streets of Dubai.
I think the fact that the protocols, standards and software are all open sort of satisfies your example anyway. The openness is the policy that will ensure your data is treated transparently. Anyway, I’m no developer, so I’m talking outside my realm of knowledge, and I’d rather leave it to developer to continue on this issue.
As to the idea that the software can reflect the TOS, I can’t see how. Sure, in my example you can use software to enforce the rule that no avatar can be naked, but how can you embed the rule that “No avatar should discriminate against another avatar on the basis of sex, sexual orientation, age, race, religion etc.” in the software? I disagree that the only tools a world owner has for enforcing the TOS are in the software. Apache can’t tell if something being hosted on a website is porn or not. That’s what the web host’s TOS is for. The interesting thing about virtual worlds is that they allow for a range of behaviours, just as in the real world. The only way to enforce many rules is through either a TOS or a set of Community Standards which are enforced by the world owner and his/her minions. At the end of the day the world owner is a dictator and their interpretation of their TOS is totally up to them. The users just have to cop it. I’m sure you can find any number of SL residents who have run afoul of the Lindens for doing things they thought were within the TOS or Community Standards.
As for the issue of lawyers, I find it had to believe that web hosts haven’t thought long and hard about their TOS. They are the sort of business that would have to deal with disputes all the time, disputes that can cause lots and lots of money. If someone is running an e-commerce site and they lose money because of a fuckup from the host you don’t think there is going to be some serious suing going on? Once again, this is outside my actual experience and is just my opinion, so I’d like to hear someone with some legal experience in these matters.
But I do agree with you lawyers should be in the room when OpenSim developers are making their plans. It can’t help having someone around to raise the sorts of issues that can influence the protocols and coding. And I agree that these sorts of discussions need to be had, because some of the decisions around the most fundamental protocols are harder to fix down the track, and the broader the issues discussed and thought through in the early stages of development the better.
Hmmm….this stuff is so tricky, I figure I need to create a glossary or something. In any case, I think we’re agreeing with each other but just don’t know it. I am NOT saying that software can be written to INTERPRET a TOS – I’m saying that a TOS is only relevant insofar as how it’s coupled with code.
The ONLY tools available for a TOS to be valid are code-based. I know this is going to sort of sound self-evident but a violation of the TOS only occurs because the software allows for it, and the enforcement of the TOS is only possible because the software provides mechanisms for doing so.
Let’s say the TOS says “Thou shalt not steal.” Perfect. You try to build systems to prevent stealing, you put permissions in place maybe, or like Warcraft you can try to embed all kinds of snoops and devices on the user’s machine. I’m not saying these things SHOULD be done, I’m just saying that out of the TOS arises the need to make sure that it’s synched up to a degree with the code.
You won’t write a clause in the TOS that says “Users have the right to be anonymous” and then (like, say, Twinity did) have the user’s real name floating above their head as they wander around the grid. So, obviously, you try to synch the TOS with the code.
This doesn’t mean you try to write the code in a way that monitors behavior, enforces it, or prevents it – all it means is that the code and the TOS work together.
I think this is really critical, because over time, worlds evolve. And I pointed this out on Raph’s site as well – that one of the critical elements in all of this is the fact that the TOS and its enforcement is evolutionary. You can try to be as specific as possible about your codes of conduct or TOS, but there will always be things that are open to interpretation over time. Second, being evolutionary as code is built and deployed platform owners will need to be keenly aware that there is an interplay between conduct and code.
Look at Facebook. They build a system, they build code, and that system denies entry to anyone who’s not at a university. Or later they open it up, and deny entry to anyone without an invite from a friend. Each shift in policy is accompanied by code, and the more tightly coupled you can make these, the more consistency you can create, and the deeper the sense of commitment by the community.
Now, I am NOT saying that code needs to be developed to monitor or enforce individual elements of the TOS – just that there needs to be a consistent coupling – whether loosely or not. Second Life is a hotbed of lessons learned on how the code and policy can become disjointed, or can result in unexpected outcomes, or can work beautifully to facilitate benefits to both the user and platform.
The ability to sell your work. That’s a TOS item. And it leads to code that includes micro-transactions and permissions.
The code is also the only source of enforcement. You’re not going after the PLAYER’S bank account, you’re going after the avatar. You don’t ban a player from heading down to the local mall, you ban the avatar from entering the world or sections of it. If the code isn’t constructed in a way to allow the platform owner to enforce it, then obviously there is no TOS.
And this is also an important point, because the TOS and enforcement, coupled with code, allow the platform owner to set a context for the community – but there will always be griefers or, well, people who want to understand where the limits are and will push up against those limits.
I can’t remember which platform introduced a “jail” for people who broke the TOS. The problem was, people got off on seeing their avatar behind bars, and so they purposefully broke the TOS so they could get thrown into jail – and who knows, maybe there was some RP that happened in there, I leave it to your imagination.
But users will press the edges of the TOS to test limits, either for fun, for commerce, or because that’s how they get their kicks. And they’ll look for exploits in how the code allows enforcement as well.
Finally – on the lawyer point….who knows what the stats are. I can only tell you from my own experience working with Fortune 500 companies – I’ve launched dozens of Web sites on their behalf, and only ONCE did they actually have their lawyers look at the privacy policy, disclaimers or copyright notices. We’ve typically used one that was drafted in 1998 – 10 years ago, as a placeholder on a site, kind of like saying “Privacy Policy Goes Here”…and the client generally has come back and said “I don’t want to have to go through legal, it will hold up our launch” and just lets it ride and prays for the best.
And I hate to say this, but some of these are Web sites about medical issues and they just shrug – a product or brand manager doesn’t have that much on the line, and to them it’s all just a big hassle that exposes them to little risk and who cares anyways. From my end, as long as they sign off it’s their business not mine.
Where I think we’re bumping up against each other however is in the attitude that ALL of the decisions about how these things get done rest with the platform owners. I have never understood why this conventional wisdom needs to remain conventional.
Why is it ALWAYS buyer beware? Um…check the newspaper…buyer beware didn’t do the US economy much good now did it?
We have obligations as users, obligations which people are slowly starting to realize have much deeper and more profound implications than they realized. But platform owners have obligations also, and is it SO wrong to say that there should at least be SOME kind of low threshold benchmark for what these obligations are? Why is that so harmful?
And please – don’t give me the “you don’t have to come here if you don’t like it” response. I realize there are laws that govern the ‘real world’ and many of these laws apply, depending on your jurisdiction, to virtual worlds as well (like hate crimes, say).
But there are also emerging issues about avatar/user rights that I’d rather embed into the discussions around policy NOW before the government steps in and sorts it out FOR us, thanks very much.
Mind you – I also think we’re agreeing, because as you say, “I agree that these sorts of discussions need to be had, because some of the decisions around the most fundamental protocols are harder to fix down the track, and the broader the issues discussed and thought through in the early stages of development the better.”
But, but, but…! The examples you use are ones that are related to those rules you can support (to a degree) with the software. You haven’t addressed my example of discrimination, or something like Raph’s rule against simulating harm towards minors, which cannot be embedded in the software and are open to interpretation. In many cases the TOS has nothing to do with the code. Flickr won’t let me upload hard core porn, but that’s not hard-coded in the software, it’s in their TOS. Even those things that can be embedded in the software like IP permissions and swear filters can subverted (remember copybot?), so the world owners have to revert back to the TOS to enforce the rules. Anyone could have subverted the limitations of Facebook if they really wanted to. Where there is a will there’s a way!
There is a lock on the door of my house that makes it clear to people that this is my space and I don’t want people to enter without my permission. But it’s not really the lock that stops honest people from entering – after all, any serious burglar will jimmy it if he wants. The lock represents a social contract to not enter. But that social contract is backed up by law.
I still say the answer is to be as open and flexible and extensible as possible, and then let world builders create a TOS that will create the type of community they want then enforce it. Sure, add things like permissions where you can, but don’t rely on them. You will always need to fall back on the TOS, especially for grey areas. We are talking human behaviour here, and there’s nothing black and white about that.
And if OpenSim doesn’t have a feature you want, patch it. You want to let users choose any name they want for themselves (which seems to be the default at this stage), fine. You’re a boring ol’ business who wants to insist that all users use their own name, or use their corporate login, add a patch. I see no universal rules that can be associated with the software. That’s not OpenSim’s responsibility (even if it were possible).
As for the legal veracity of TOS… if a website or web service doesn’t do due diligence then it’s their own fault if they get done. Anyway, I was talking about web hosts, not the websites they host (although in the case of large services like flickr, facebook or Amazon they are one and the same).
And I’m sorry, but of course platform owners get to decide the rules for their platform. If I don’t like it I can go elsewhere. If YouTube won’t host my porn videos I’ll just go and find a video sharing site that does. This is the freedom of a free market. If they do choose to have responsibilities, like Raph is doing that’s fine (although I personally think it’s problematic), but platform owners are under no obligation to do so. You seem to have fallen for this myth than many SL residents labour under that because it’s a world (albeit a virtual one) users should be treated like citizens and have rights. Nope – not unless the world builder/owner grants them (and they can always change them without notice).
Hmm… I wonder if we aren’t talking a bit at cross purposes here because of the confusion over platforms, hosts, world builders, world owners and software. Perhaps we do need a glossary!
To me the future of virtual worlds should look like this – if you find a virtual world you like and are willing to abide by their rules, great! If not, find a hosting service and build your own world with your own rules! The underlying software needs to be so open, flexible and extensible you can make it do anything you want. The rules are in the TOS, not the software.
What an interesting thing, we the citizens, live like an ant farm. Only that in this case the ant farm wants some rights, and pretends to change the “constitution”, have a say on its “world”.
Wasn’t this a private company selling a hosted service, to users=clients? Don’t we understand that there is huge pressure to become profitable, have growth, expand to international markets, maybe become a public company?
Whats does this have to do with, citizen rights, and stuff?
This is not a constitution, its a contract, like in a restaurant, you don’t like the food? you can leave. And we are not a society, we are bunch of personal interests hosted and linked in a virtual scenario.
Well anyways, of course I am totally joking, if virtual communities want to grow as they plan and become this huge phenomenon, they NEED to release control, specially to the citizens. Who in return will always understand the community is run by a a profit oriented company. Managed by not perfect human beings.
Such a balance needed!
But our virtual community owners will never release control, or act (apparently) against their best interests (money and growth) until we prove, as a virtual society that, this is precisely the best thing they can do for their capitalist interests.
Our good is a common good. Etc. you know the drill.
Mony – Good point, and I think what’s interesting is that Raph is intending to make money, and that he possibly sees a strategic advantage in shifting ‘rights’ to the ants. Maybe he raises the bar for the rest of them.
OpenSim on the other hands is NOT for profit it’s the companies who use it who will be profitable. Which is why it’s so odd that there’s always so much resistance, I feel, to discussions of policy. I mean – look, the Mozilla Foundation has POLICY, why is this such a stretch?
They have a manifesto, they have a Statement of Direction, and all of these things help govern how all the bits of code help end users – the ants. That’s the point of open source really, or I thought it was – to rip coding out of the hands of closed off corporations so the ants could have rights and the common good could be advanced.
I mean…do the OpenSim folks subscribe to the following for example (just sub in the words virtual worlds for Internet):
1. The Internet is an integral part of modern life–a key component in education, communication, collaboration, business, entertainment and society as a whole.
2. The Internet is a global public resource that must remain open and accessible.
3. The Internet should enrich the lives of individual human beings.
4. Individuals’ security on the Internet is fundamental and cannot be treated as optional.
5. Individuals must have the ability to shape their own experiences on the Internet.
6. The effectiveness of the Internet as a public resource depends upon interoperability (protocols, data formats, content), innovation and decentralized participation worldwide.
7. Free and open source software promotes the development of the Internet as a public resource.
8. Transparent community-based processes promote participation, accountability, and trust.
9. Commercial involvement in the development of the Internet brings many benefits; a balance between commercial goals and public benefit is critical.
10. Magnifying the public benefit aspects of the Internet is an important goal, worthy of time, attention and commitment.
So, sure….Linden Lab is a company. Metaplace is a company that decided to give avatar rights and perhaps will benefit strategically. OpenSim I’m told is Apache and is a bunch of code, and is divorced from the policy that’s built on top of that code, and yet OTHER open source projects subscribe to policy and principles, I just continue to be baffled.
“It’s as diverse as the real world. It’s hard to characterize it as dominated by any one thing. It’s a lot more about being social. About shopping, buying and expressing oneself. Last weekend, we had a huge “hair fair.” People want to buy hair for their avatars.
“We can only pray That Phillip Linden will discover this as well
Ah yes, Kean. Pip, I fear, is so far into the singularity that he doesn’t understand the importance of hair. Or maybe he doesn’t know how to attach it?
But first… making money is a red herring. Many of the virtual worlds of the future will not be about making money. There will be non-profits, educational institutions and groups of like minded people setting up virtual worlds for themselves and their friends (e.g. furries). The hosts they will use will be making money though, by charging for hosting services (in the same way that web hosts charge for web hosting).
On to policies… So Mozilla Foundation has a policy. But OpenSim is not a foundation – it is a piece of software being developed by a team of programmers from disparate backgrounds. At this stage, anyone can contribute to it. They do, however, have a policy with some Core Values – http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Contributions_Policy.
Would it be a good idea to set up an OpenSim foundation to help guide the development of the software along beneficial lines? If this is what you are asking, then it’s a good question.
I believe that the metaverse (whatever shape that takes) has the capacity to greatly enhance humanity, as the Internet and the WWW have, but that can only happen if it is based on open standards, protocols and formats. A foundation and a policy at this early stage sounds like a good idea. The Apache Foundation looks like a good model. The Mozilla Foundation policy you list looks like a good guideline for a policy. One day the OpenSim guys might form into a foundation, but until then it’s just a team of individuals working on software.
I’m neither a programmer or a member of the OpenSim team, so perhaps the next step in this discussion is to ask one of the lead OpenSim developers what they think about the idea of setting up such a foundation and developing a policy.
I will point out though that a policy guiding the development of the software upon which virtual worlds are based is very different from the end user bill of rights and responsibilities that are used *inside* those worlds, which is where you started.
And Mony is right – if you want it, maybe you have to build it. Perhaps your next post should be about what you think the guiding principles of the coming metaverse should be (you have a great start with your substitution idea above).
Even better, if you believe in open source, then stick it up on a wiki and get the community involved.
Even better still, how about suggesting a meeting in-world to discuss setting up a foundation and a policy? Contributing to open source projects is not just about contributing code… there is a lot of admin type work too. I’m sure Adam et al are very busy with what they are doing and would probably appreciate you taking an initiative on this.
I’m up for it. I don’t want to leave the evolution of the metaverse in the hands of the hundreds of commercial virtual worlds startups that are training kids to be good consumers. And who wouldn’t want to get in on the ground floor of developing the rules for the New World?!
And yet again – another missed opportunity to grill M on the promise to open source the SL server software this quarter, and how their business model is going to survive that. Grrr!
Thanks Sean for such an amazing discussion. I’m sure most people have other things that excite them on a Friday but this is as good a way to end the week as any.
I believe there’s a movement afoot with the OpenSim folks on the foundation idea – something I ran across today:
Sean: The best comment I heard about this was in a back channel. This person proposed that by working on and talking about open source, Linden had the effect of chilling venture capital investments. By talking up open source, venture funds who might have considered investing in competing virtual world platforms might get cold feet – after all, if the leader in the market is talking about open source and interoperability, then why would I sink venture money into a business that would compete with that?
I’m not saying that this is the motivation of the Lab, but it’s definitely one of the benefits of murmuring about interoperability and open source a lot while they sort out what they can actually afford to MEAN (or, at the very least, to await innovations from open source that they can then swallow and embed in their own platform – which is also why I doubt they’ll ever open the server source).
Yes, I know about the AWG, and there are a lot of knowledgeable people in it talking about the types of standards and protocols that are needed for an open metaverse, but I’m a bit suspicious of it because of its alliance with a commercial entity.
More to the point though, would or should the suggested foundation be one to guide the development of OpenSim?
Essentially the only change that I can see here, is that Orientation is now forcibly bypassed rather than optionally (with a second click on the SLURL after logging in). So, this essentially improves the user experience by… One mouse-click?
But I also think there’s something substantially different between inviting someone to “generically” enter Second Life and sending or posting your particular location and that’s where they land.
I’ve had friends register and I can tell you – the whole process of getting them out of orientation to wherever I am is a lot more than one mouse click. You have to either communicate with them outside of SL – using Skype or MSN or whatever. Or you have to hope they notice the chat in the lower left (amongst all the OTHER local chat they’re getting from mentors and spammers and whoever) and then hope that if they DON’T manage to see the chat thing that if you send them a teleport request that they understand that it’s YOU.
How much easier to say: go to this Web site, follow the steps, and when you arrive I’ll be there to greet you.
Well, that was how the referral program used to work. You’d send a friend an email, and you could tick a box to have them bypass orientation and come directly to you instead.
A fantastic site, and brilliant effort. A great piece of work.l
On 09.21.08 Chimera Cosmos said:
It does sound like the referral program as Tateru describes it, but I don’t know what the sign-up process was like for that or where the new resident’s Home was set.
I made a new alt to test this. Basically there was one short form to choose your name, page to chose avi, get confirmation email, download, start up SL, go back to SLURL page and click TP. On arrival at the destination of the SLURL, there were a few small screens with movement basics to click through in the upper left. Home was set to my arrival point.
I’ve been through the same hassle with new folks being stuck in Orientation where you could not come to help them, and being given too much to learn in one session. Not to mention the potential disconcerting encounters with griefers.
To me, this is a hugely improved process for the types of people I would be inviting. I was surprised but very pleased to see Torley’s introductory video pop up on his Twitter feed late at night/early in the AM a couple of days ago.
I love the idea of having some vidtuts for folks to watch during the download. Another idea would be for pop-up invitations to appear periodically to see videos or go to tutorial areas during the first days or weeks of the membership. You can learn faster once you get your bearings and are beyond having trouble just moving in the space.
[...] 21, 2008 by piensl Traté y traté y no pude conectarme a SL esta tarde. Al ver el blog de Dusanwriter entendí…habían sobre 70 mil personas conectadas (70,298 para ser exactos). El incremento es [...]
[...] fully composed and rendered in 3DS. And it’s free. (But I beg of you, make a donation!) I wasn’t sure it could deliver when I ran across what was promised – but it does, and [...]
Yes, 3DS Max purists might not enjoy working with prims as much, but for the person who is fairly SL-centric (and there are a great many of us) the power of working with prims cannot be overstated
The ability to use powerful ray-traced lighting, complex Materials and Maps, and all of the other goodies 3DS Max brings to the table has got me truly excited about building again.
And the icing on the cake? It’s gotta be the ability to have my work fully backed up on my local network drive, and less susceptible to the whimsy of the all-powerful Asset Server!
Takuan – I couldn’t agree more, being a primmer myself. And you’re right – working with Prim Composer had me craving a week of building and experimenting – had me excited about building again as you say.
The major downside to Prim Composer is the cost – which is free, of course, it’s just too bad that 3DS Max itself is so expensive. On the other hand, this opens up new potential for enterprising content developers and I’d hazard a guess that the investment can be worth it.
Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » Philip Rosedale on Second Life, Usability, and Getting Grandma a New Job…
So imagine for a minute that you’re a coding geek. And you read science fiction sometimes, and you know who Ray Kurzweil is and you actually believe in the Singularity. Now, imagine that somehow your geekiness lands you in Silicon Valley and somehow th…
On 09.22.08 Alberik Rotaru said:
He definitely needs a new vice-president of global metaphors. His ‘use case’ (how is a use case different from a use) is inadequate and defensive. It’s not the aha we’re looking for. The faithful image is to give grandma 6 hours intensive hands-on training on the web and see how she goes, not to drop her naked on the web while you give her clothes in a virtual world.
Philip suffers from what many of visionaries suffer from. He has a vision, but when he start talking it, just send him away to do it, not to explain it.
Though, I believe that it would be easier to introduce somebody to SL than to Web, in the case that both are completely unfamiliar. People who say that SL has a steep learning curve are the same that managed to forget that they had hard time getting on with web browser as well.
On 09.22.08 WIdget Whiteberry said:
Interesting thinking here, Dusan. I was a competent web user before coming to SL 13 months ago. I’d also spent hours watching my son play various Everquest and listening to his enthusiastic descriptions and analysis.
The learning curve was steep and not always transparent. Numerous people were generous with their time, only some of whom I met on a help island. My biggest advantage lay in coming in to interact with an existing community, as it brought me into orbit around an expanding group of people, where someone was always available to answer a question, think something through or demonstrate a technique. Thankfully, I now pass that help along.
In my travels, I met the people of Heron Sanctuary, who contend with a range of physical, neuro and social disabilities. Now Virtual Ability, it might be useful to look at their new orientation center. Because it was designed for people with disabilities, they have taken all sorts of factors into account and nothing* for granted. http://slurl.com/secondlife/Virtual%20Ability/128/128/23
On 09.22.08 Alberik Rotaru said:
I’m not sure I agree that visionaries have trouble explaining their vision. When I think about people like Mandela, Hawking, Gates, and Berners-Lee, ‘inarticulate’ is not a word that springs quickly to mind.
On 09.23.08 WIdget Whiteberry said:
We could add Bucky Fuller and David Brower to that list.
This does sound like a turning point for builders and may fit in well with the recent “turnaround” that Second Life may be entering. However, 3DS Max is not only expensive, but it seems to be only available for Windows! No Mac or Linux versions available. Sigh.
Yeah – that’s definitely the major stumbling block Arminasx. If only Shack could ALSO come up with a way to translate OBJ files to “SL Primitives” we’d be laughing. But he’s worked so hard already.
On 09.25.08 Alberik Rotaru said:
I think WAPOL, rather than WAPD. The retirement benefits is really weird. Superannuation and worker’s comp are pretty much universal in Oz, so I’d be astonished if it’s true that retired WAPOL officers receive no benefits or support. I am sorry to note that your article fails to compare the Western Australian Police Service to either a terrarium or a job-hunting (and presumably eye-contact avoiding) grannie.
On 09.25.08 Inquisitive said:
Dusan, Are different ways of knowing being created in the bifucation of self existence? Do you think we are developing new ways of sensing in virtual worlds that replace the RL senses which are not being utilized in a life-world void of physical reality?
On 09.25.08 Barbra said:
Well I have lived with my RMU cousin since her demise in 2002 and can tell you 1st hand that it is true. Yes they do have Superannuation universally in OZ but you can not access it until you are in your twilight years and in the case of permanently retired medically unfit personal it can be accessed but at a HUGE Tax cost in excess of 50% leaving nothing for your twilight years. Not receiving any medical benefits and all costs associated quickly eats into that.
[...] and What Is Philip talked about the user experience and the Second Life client. In my last post, I talked about his shifting ‘temporal state’. It’s my theory that Philip sometimes confuses [...]
I woke up one morning and realised Philip and SL’s problem too, except I didn’t dream any graphs, my head don’t work that way…
They DO have a vision for Linden Labs and SL, they’ve told us about it often enough – they want The Grid to be the HTML/www of virtual spaces. In this ultimate scenario Linden will hover around the edges and in the background, making it all join up and work together, like the virtual space (semi-commercial?) equivalent of ICANN. They won’t be responsible for any actual content just the infrastructure, connectivity and interoperability standards (and all the other geek stuff). All well and good, so what’s the problem?
The problem is that they’ve operated until now AS IF THIS WAS ALREADY TRUE! They have been hands-off with content (unless forced to be otherwise), have avoided any real inworld governance and concentrate primarily on the technical – failing to really grasp the PEOPLE stuff, including the UI, the first-hour experience, the reasons to stay etc – all the stuff you’ve called them on recently.
There’s something to be said for starting as you mean to go on but in this case it’s become more of an anchor than a sail. If virtual spaces are to become as ubiquitous as Pip Linden hopes then someone has to navigate and steer them there. Now M Linden has to retrofit a rudder onto SL and grasp it…
One more early-morning minor-revelation I had – Second Life’s ultimate destination (for visitors if not creators) is NOT in a web browser – it’s on your TV.
Seriously, you dream in graphs? That would really worry me….
“trying to improve the conversion behavior” – but what actually is the conversion *goal*? How is it defined or measured?
On 09.27.08 Alberik Rotaru said:
The worry with all this is the vast rhetorical overhang that buries itself in a cloud of unknowing. The danger is that sooner or later people will get sick of the rhetorical overhang and walk away.
I do not think Second Life s a bubble in the sense that the dot com bubble or the financial derivatives bubble were. The problem is that Second Life wears the same clothes and right now people associate that language with fraudulent boosterism. ‘The fundamentals of Second Life is throng’ is no longer an adequate way of speaking,
Putting out self-evidently untrue metaphors like the strange use case of the granny who goes naked into the Web but fully clothed into Second Life and somehow gets a job within 6 hours not only fails to close the sale, it adds to the sense of disquiet.
Second Life’s problems are not just code. They may not even principally be code. Second Life may have libertarianism at its heart, but when it comes to dealing with Residents it morphs from libertarian caring sharing fell good to an FOAD style of customer relations that is arbitrary, impenetrable and deeply alienating. JIRA gets largely ignored. Support tickets are a sad train of new definitions of ‘It’s all your fault’. Even quite large corporations with a string of sims cannot find anyone to talk with them at Linden Lab. When Dazzle was first introduced, and it’s only a skin after all) it was the best thing since sliced bread and those who objected simply didn’t understand its magnificence.
If Second Life is going to be a platform for a new company style, then it better start showing some of the advantages of its new style in the way it deals with its own customers.
Residents, corporate and otherwise, are not going to judge Second Life by the naked granny use case and the soft interface of customer relations needs, if anything, more work than the hard interface of the viewer. Management cannot be replaced with metaphors.
[...] recent announcements strengthen this shift in to products: the launch of the SLim viewer, and the partnership with Rivers Run Red on Immersive [...]
[...] commented on the Rosedale interview, talking first about his vision for Second Life as a platform, and second the role of the user interface and [...]
On 09.29.08 Moriz Gupte said:
Hi Dusan, check out my post on my take on SL user interface issues and related areas. In particular, I discuss the emotional bandwidth issue and possible solutions. http://snipurl.com/3xq42
It makes sense to work on that “first hour” of experience. It also makes sense to figure out that “last mile” of delivery, too.
I have had such poor performance in SL over the last couple weeks I am finding myself either leaving or not attempting some of the things I normally enjoy, such as exploring.
I went to a live concert yesterday… there was great music and it was fun being there with friends from all over the globe, yet after being there for an hour or more, most of the avatars and location were not yet rezzed. I shifted my music feed directly to the shoutcast server, and the SL client was useful only for text chat.
Attempting to go to Burning Life? what is the use if it won’t rez?
I know this kind of complaining is a constant din… normally my take as been, “I am surprised it works as well as it does” but when my experience takes a hard dive and doesn’t recover for a couple weeks, it starts to sour the whole experience.
One good thing (as to not be all complaints) – there were no sub-prime US mortgages done with the Linden Exchange. So far it seems to be strong.
I’m afraid you’ve got the headline wrong, Dusan — M isn’t talking about a new viewer, he’s talking about improvements to the existing viewer to make it more friendly to new users.
“The new viewer design will be an interface design. If we have to make changes to the underlying code base we will do that with care and thought. I am not sure at this point how much of that we will be doing. Also, we will be folding the great thinking already done in the Resident community into our work.”
Now, I always get stuck on the difference between viewer and interface, and clearly he’s talking about the interface which MAY impact the underlying code base.
And I assume on “great thinking” he’s referring to you!
[...] collaborating, a ‘virtual world’ on the X-Box platform (OK, well, avatars anyways), and their work with Calligari and 3DVIA, clearly put Microsoft as an emerging player in the 3D Internet space. [...]
[...] for using virtual worlds for meeting and collaborating, a ‘virtual world’ on the X-Box platform (OK, well, avatars anyways), and their work with Calligari and 3DVIA, clearly put Microsoft as an [...]
Dusan: I agree that MSFT has some interesting things going on with regard to immersive technology. My take: don’t expect Microsoft’s information worker division to aggressively embrace the Immersive Internet. Rather, this division is likely to sit back for a while to see how the Immersive Internet develops, and then get in the game. For information workers, Microsoft may move in the direction of integrating Virtual Earth with the company’s collaboration and social computing products. Virtual Earth already integrates with Office PerformancePoint Server 2007 for business data visualization. Imagine if: Microsoft went further and Virtual Earth was integrated with Outlook and Exchange Server and Office Communicator and Communications Server so you could zoom in on any address in your contacts database or buddy list, or in an email signature, and get directions and a 3D image of the location. Take it even further and picture yourself inviting a professional contact to come and meet you in the virtual park outside your virtual office in Virtual Earth, where your avatars sit on a bench together while you IM or talk via voice about, say, an upcoming business trip. Give it five years and this style of communication and collaboration will be commonplace. And Microsoft will likely be one of the vendors delivering it. Here’s a link to an article I wrote about this in July titled “My take on Microsoft’s Immersive Internet play for information workers” (http://tinyurl.com/56p6pf).
Erica Driver, Principal, ThinkBalm
On 10.01.08 radar said:
It’s really hard to hold my tongue with regards to any notion of Microsoft being a top leader in any innovative new segment of the computing industry, frankly. They talk the talk, but rarely do they walk the walk with anything outside of what they’ve been doing for the last thousand years.
The people who really get how 3d will/should be used won’t be the mainstay computer OS types, IMO. A lot of the scenarios for 3d business use are too “weighty”… honestly, I can’t log into SL for less than 20 minutes. You have a load a program, log in… get the whole IM and notice thing… it just takes too long. If 3d really has a place in business software (and I’m not sure it’s not a case of everything looking like a nail) it needs to be lightweight and quick to use. Not something you have to feel like you’re logging into.
It’s a hard distinction to express in an understandable way, but it’s like the difference between logging into SL and getting something done vs. using twitter or blogging something real quick. The barrier to jumping into SL to do something quick is higher just because of the minimum time involved.
It doesn’t surprise me at all that Microsoft is starting to put together a cohesive story about the immersive internet. The vision described above pulls together threads that have been in the works for over a decade. With an incredibly strong background in games, MMOs, cartography, very large databases, scale-out server farms, avatars (Microsoft Agent, the infamous “clippy”, game charaters, etc.), smart music composition (Microsoft Music Producer), social networking (much of this in MSR Labs), streaming media on a large scale, face recognition, lip-reading, haptic interfaces, flight simulators, train simulators, extraction of 3D information from 2D phtography, high performance computing (parallel computing), mobile interfaces, voice recognition, VoIP, robotics, scripting languages, and software development & packaging, they’re pretty well situated to deliver a comprehensive solution.
Aha! The Landmarks & Navigation project is pretty much wrapped up, so I don’t see why they’d be hiring now — unless they’re going to be doing more SL work in the future.
Seems there’s more to the story than just the L&N project. Good find!
I’m not entirely sure what the big secret is, Jacek. Maybe they don’t realize they’re being secretive? In any case, a smoking gun maybe, but on the other hand maybe Vectorform a) doesn’t update their job listings or keeps old ones up for the sake of, um, looking busy or b) is being contracted by someone else to develop stuff or c) is referring to another project when they use the word, in plural, “interfaces”.
Here I am reading the Linden tea leaves again! Hahaha.
But at least there’s smoke – and it’s always fun to speculate. Plus, I live near Detroit so maybe I can pop by and, um, keep them honest?
On 10.02.08 Aimee Trescothick said:
Pretty sure that job listing has been on there since at least April, I remember looking at it when L&N was first announced.
Ah see? I wondered why there was no date on their job postings – always makes you wonder whether it’s a way of beefing up the sense of how busy they are. In any case, at least we can get a confirm or deny from someone. Well, maybe not, but let’s see.
Pffft. Michigan? Don’t they realize the Second Life powerhouse they have right in their own mosquito infested backyard? (hint: they should just fire up the ‘Lordfly Digeridoo’ beacon and shine it into the Michigan night sky…
The Vectorform homepage looks snazzy, but when I try to read it, I’m not done reading before it automatically flips to the next case study. Imagine what they’ll do with SL… A new SL user has just arrived in SL, a little tutorial bubble pops up telling them how to move around (arrow keys), but it vanishes before they have time to read it…
It doesn’t mention that Microsoft is getting into virtual worlds, but does emphasis the focus on long-term investments and tapping into the research labs.
Well Dusan, there is something very important to learn from your article here. You have been visiting all these different worlds, signed up as beta tester to explore them and see what they are about. Still the thing you like best is an island made by people, not computer programmers, marketing staff, virtual world experts but just by people who bought land and started to do their own thing on their island and turned it into loco poco town. They like it, you like it and that is what it should be about. The most important thing to learn from this is that virtual worlds should be created by people, just as the internet was made by people. I think that is the correct direction for the metaverse to follow.
Vectorform submits landmarks and navigation beta for Second Life…
As you may already know from the buzz back in April when the project kicked off (just prior to Kingdon’s hiring as freshly minted CEO of Linden Lab), the global interactive design firm Vectorform was contracted by Linden Lab to undertake the Landmarks…
La revue de liens sur les univers virtuels – Semaine 40…
L’actualité sur les mondes virtuels, les MMORPG, les mondes persistants non traitées sur ce site.
Français :
Nouveau serveur francophone : Mylaise, un évènement à venir !
Ankama Convention #3
Second Life : in world – out world, restez en ……
On 10.04.08 Beau Dodson said:
Interesting game. One thing that schools do not teach kids, in the United States at least, is how to manage credit. It would be nice if the school systems would teach this from grade school through high school. It is probably one of the more important items a kid/teen can learn.
Great post, seems like we will be seeing more and more of these ARG type of activities/experiences as the technological advancement will catch up all over the world.
Interesting to see what projects are there that successfully create such an experience and tie it maybe to their working habits …
Hi Dusan,
- great to see the Labour Party aboard.
- for almost two year, since the presidential campaign, now, the french socialist party has been present in Second Life holding events and debate.
- the slurl = http://slurl.com/secondlife/Bretton/174/226/102
- the web site = http://desirsdavenir-secondlife.net/
ciao – CU there,
TL
[...] reales como la realidad que experimentamos cuando no estamos conectados. De eso habla el blog de Dusan Writers metaverse cuand refiere la opinión de una persona con condiciones especiales que dice…”Here in [...]
Dusan, I can’t believe you are recycling this over-used PPT of Jane’s — it’s ghastly. As if there aren’t horrible wars in Sudan, Iraq, Afghanistan — oh, and lots of nasty things in reality, as if it’s all about California Happiness.
Meanwhile your friend Jane was busy cooperating with the government of China to make an ARG around the Olympics. Sigh.
It’s crude and disgusting and atavistic, this idea that you can “make reality like a game”. Only goofy self-indulged people in a terribly affluent setting like Silicon Valley could come up with this stuff.
Uh, did Ted’s big exodus take place yet? And have you REALLY read his second book? The parts where he tells you that what happiness engineers need to do is to tape deep into the instinctual nervous system of the human being deliberately, and manipulate it? The way thrilling war games manipulate it? Ugh.
I suppose I didn’t sound sufficiently snarky so was unclear about my opinion. In any case, yes, I did read Castranova’s book and blogged about it at length:
While the arcticle is certainly an interesting one and it raises some debateable points, some sentences let me doubt, if it has been researched THAT well …
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[...] brands like US retailer Best Buy and computer vendor Dell Computers diverted LARGE CHUNKS OF THEIR MARKETING SPEND there, [... ] says Jack Linden, HEAD OF … LINDEN LABS
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This reads more like a quick copy and paste job.
The bottom line is true, though: “Straight advertising” is all about the number of eyeballs I can reach through a certain channel. And SL has maybe 2 Million eyeballs to offer. Thats not really a lot on a global scale. Games have (substantially!) more. That’s it. True, but not actually a piece of investigative journalism
Not only in terms of that the relationship between 2D and 3D has to be explored but also how 1d (CLI) 2D, maybe 2.5D and 3D can go together. I thought there was an unholy ‘everything has to be graphic’ (what we call 2D now) in former times, and now we stick with it for no reason. That’s why I think that experiments like Goosh (http://goosh.org/ , sort of retro, I know) and Ubiquity are mandatory.
We sort of stick too much to ‘we went from 1D to 2D, now we have to move from 2D to 3D’ approach.
[...] VIRTUAL WORLDS>> Now, sure, maybe he’s slicing and dicing, but it strikes the right note: at least he didn’t mention anything about grandmothers getting jobs in Second Life or how much easier it is to use than the Internet. It’s a crisp message.dusanwriter.com [...]
inworld vs online advertising/sponsorship breaks out as– fewer more intense vs more less relevant. And the inworld participants tend to be more online saavy which means potentially there is access to people that will tell a lot of people what to do = personal reccomendation. So what is engagement of a few loud mouths with some tech/social web credibility worth? A lot more than spewing google adwords all over.
Plus inworld is very cost effective (total gibberish about Dell btw!). On a CPA basis it should be the most effective. Yet, the issue is gross new customers/new sales generated, which will be low.
Net net–inworld ad and sponsorship opportunities will yield big results for the companies that do it right (so far…er…none have done this).
We of course have some ideas on how this might work! But right now biggest drag on more rl companies making some experiments is the baggage with the SL brand.
and i suggest further research on ER and its “unique” buisness model for growth and commercial usage of others property and IP. I expect a similar attempt will be made in 2018 over the corpse of the “millions ” of user generated 3d assets built in SL, the virtual world paradigm shifter for the second generation of vr worlds designers;)
[...] here. Took time to arrive but you can finally compile or recompile scripts using the Mono engine. . Originally promised for the first quarter of the year, Mono is supposed to speed up scripts as seen in this comparison [...]
On 10.17.08 Daniel Regenbogen said:
Sadly, LL decided to not only improve things in the new viewer, it also is taking away usability and comfort at other places. The support for the especially for estate owners/managers very usefull Logitech G15 LCD keyboard that worked fine up to the 1.20 viewer was stripped out of 1.21 – making a $100+ investment useless. See http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-8553
[...] Under this philosophy, I’d imagine that rather than avatar data being hosted or held by the servers attached to worlds, they’d be hosted by the users themselves. Why should my avatar be held on some corporate server somewhere, or on some OpenSim grid in someone’s basement? I’m not saying this is technically easier, or faster, but I’m pointing out that the philosophy of how you treat avatars leads to code and how that code is hosted, which leads to a constraint in what sorts of policies are possible. The Mozilla Foundation, for example, is built on a few principles or philosophies. And I’ve written about that, and the open source Second Life viewer at length. [...]
[...] Here is the original post: Second Life Privacy Flaw Allows Tracking of Users, Anywhere, Any Time [...]
On 10.17.08 Thraxis Epsilon said:
Simple solution. Do not IM people when you’re someplace you don’t want them to know where you are. The method described above will only report location if it has received an IM from you. Otherwise it has no clue where you are on the grid.
As for spouses, partners, Masters, Dom’s, Domme’s, etc. tracking and spying on their loved ones. People have been doing that in SL for ages with scripted objects and/or by just requiring that “can map me” is turned on. (map location is available via the web on the LL Friends list if it is on)
“You can see the region and exact coordinates of any user … with whom you open (but do not necessarily use) an IM.” Are you sure about that last bit? Which of the forms of that data block would you expect to get (and why/when) if you just open an IM channel to someone but they don’t speak on it? Of course if you say something they’ll be likely to answer, but if you say something meaningless every ten seconds just to do location tracking they’re likely to be suspicious.
Similarly you might sort-of-force a reply packet that would contain location information if you sent them a friendship request or TP offer, but again doing that constantly for monitoring purposes would be very obvious.
Is there in fact a way to get a packet like that back from a user without the user noticing? If so, that is indeed something that ought to be fixed (and should probably be pJIRA’d).
Second Life grid protocol leaks avatar locations?…
According to Dusan Writer, the Instant Messaging portion of the Second Life grid network protocols contains location information about every avatar who sends an IM to you. It’s been known for some time that the fields designed to encapsulate that info…
Things like this are an artifact of a closed system designed with little thought to what would happen if the system were to become open. The protocols of Second Life were designed with developer convenience in mind and not security or privacy. We’ve been seeing the consequences of this decisions for a few years now since the protocol was reverse engineered and then finally opened(sans actual documentation. GPLed code as documentation?).
To clarify: you do NOT need to say something to someone in IM to get their sim location. It appears that location (coordinate) data is passed as well, although this was not directly tested. So, the idea that you need to message people in order to get their location is erroneous – all you have to do is open the IM and not say anything.
So, Dale and Thraxis – your “work-arounds” don’t work. Because someone just needs to open an IM window to find out where you are. Similarly, muting someone does not prevent them from doing this.
This has always been the case, In fact, it used to be you could map anyone on the grid. Yes, anyone.
To be able to “turn off” mapping was a new viewer feature added about this time in 2006 if I remember correctly. back then, you had to actually turn it off as it defualted to on (which made sense since it is what everyone was used to.)
Over time, we all simply became used to that ‘feature’. However, if you think of it, that informat really does have to still be constantly tranfered back and forth so it works when you turn mapping ON.
Thus, mapping always happens. it’s not the design of the software to have the ability to turn it on and off. It always was on. What Linden lab has done was to add a little checkbox that simply tells the map “don’t show this location) – even though your viewer already knows it’s there.
So, for those who complain about this feature (”flaw”) being an issue with poor software design… fair enough. But the ability to turn mapping OFF is really just a patch to hide what is there.
Agreed Ari, and I should have made the point that the very REASON this exists is because of the fact that at one point it was an “open” map. All Linden Lab did was turn off the DISPLAY of that location information as a default. It didn’t eliminate the information stream, just hid it.
I still stand, however, by my assertion that this is an example of how the initial intentions of code (even if supposedly divorced from policy) can later have an impact on the ability to enforce or deploy policy.
[...] laugh. This is an important one. Because to me, Second Life is a Story Box. As a site for creativity virtual worlds are being built prim by prim in, perhaps, the largest [...]
[...] to Dusan Writer, the Instant Messaging portion of the Second Life grid network protocols contains location information about every avatar who sends an IM to you. It’s been known for some time that the fields designed to encapsulate that information were [...]
Second Life: You Can be Mapped by Anyone at Anytime?…
Article LinkThose of you who were registered in Second Life prior to 2007 may remember a feature where anyone on your Friends List could map you without your consent. It was later resolved by allowing you to toggle mapping capabilities for those on yo…
On 10.19.08 Liz Dorland said:
Do remember (in case you have forgotten) that Tom Boellstorff (author of Coming of Age) is (in fact) a professor (in RL) and one who does not (I think) talk in parentheses (much).
Not unlike myself lo these many years… (lol)
Nice selection of books! Agreed re: Castronova. See ya at Metanomics.
Hahaha…..I didn’t mean to imply that all professors speak with parentheses, just this PARTICULAR friend. I adore professors, which is why he’s my friend I suppose.
And yeah, Tom is a professor. But mind you, he’s also one in California and I wonder if that has some kind of cancel-out effect?
On 10.20.08 Corcosman Voom said:
A wonderful read, Dusan. I’ve tried, rather feebly, a few times to explain to friends who have never heard of Second Life why it is attractive to me.
When it is very good, people can show me what is inside their minds. And I can be part of what is in their minds. And when it is very good, I do not wonder about the explanation of how something was accomplished but enter the story that is being told.
I see the repeated theme of the campfire circle in Second Life and am reminded that Second Life is one more method of storytelling.
The collapse of the SL(R) virtual environment as a result of the recent hiccup in the world financial market (what, it was more than a hiccup?) is unlikely to be imminent. In fact, as people spend less time going out in Real Life, perhaps we’ll see a “surge” in Second Life(TM) activity!
The MBC and SLNN big screen TV’s that I have in my SL house were free, and I can upgrade to even bigger ones for the same price. And the free streaming internet radio I have is less expensive than my real life XM subscription. So I’m thinking of living in SL and logging on to RL just at weekends.
“…but what am I supposed to DO here?” says the Noob.
Both Dusan and Corcosman make excellent and apposite points when talking about the notion of Second Life as storytelling. Some folks enter this virtual world to be told a story, when the truth is that you are here to write our own.
You can’t have a passive Second Life experience; you have to mold it. In the grand tradition of the Absurdists, SL has no point, no meaning, and can be full of absurdity and folly. But therein lies the nature of the beast.
Umberto Eco talks about the concept of “The Open Text” and Second Life seems to me to be a wonderful example of this, where SL residents are effectively “readers” of the evolving book. The virtual world is literally full of stories, including the “Gorean Redux,” “Vampire Tales,” “Mafia Life,” “Media Moguls,” “Pirate Kings and Queens,” and many, many more.
If there is one thing that needs to be encouraged and allowed to grow, it is creativity. That’s what will sustain Second Life as a viable system and attempts to restrict or suppress it will only serve to make the experience all the poorer.
[...] narrative’ for Second Life has changed from a year or so ago. It’s not a surprise. Mitch Kapor warned us that the frontier days were over and all the early creators and residents should suck it up and [...]
“And I still return to it, after all these months, when I’m tired of thinking about business collaboration and Showcase and how the UI might be improved for the new user or whatever other muck, because this is why I stayed in the first place…”
Funny as it may sound, I’m not sure this would be right video to watch Dusan. Don’t get me wrong, I love this video, and when talking about ‘experience’ this is one of my favorite examples to show what new media can do here.
However, I’m not entirely sure what the contribution of virtual worlds is to the video. I think it really is the combination of sight, sound and motion/animation (and the narrative of the song) that make the video as breathtaking as it is. The image is perfectly ‘framed’ (not in the litteral sense, but figuratively). The author gets to show his passion, his world-view exactly the way he wants it, something which is a lot, a lot harder to do in the free virtual environment. If anything, the video sells video…
Of course SL provided the tools, maybe even the desire to share his passion in the way that he did but On 3D contest forums there are quite a number of user generated (solo projects) an equally breathtaking vids like this, build in traditional 3D tools. All in all I think there is a good reason Dingo did not preserve the sim (the scenery – the virtual world part) as a whole: I’m sure it would communicate the experience that intense.
Admittedly however, watching the actual avatar build it all (as opposed to filming tools at work in 3D max) adds an extra endearing level to the video, but that’s a rather marginal contribution is it not?
On 10.21.08 Digado said:
*** I’m sure it would NOT communicate the experience that intense.
What LL tried to do is quite regular way of developing VW business. First you start the basic infrastructure and gather enthusiasts to test it and to start developing content. Then more people come and you introduce economy. The next caste comes soon, small entrepreneurs, those future barons and “million dollars from the basement” crew. Then you have population flood, usually induced by media attention. Then you bring the big business to inject a lot of money that will sustain all the enthusiasts, entrepreneurs, general public… and the company itself. There is nothing wrong with that.
Except if you plan to sacrifice everybody for the sake of having biz people. Which would be utterly stupid move. Because that kid is still making better cars than car companies are. And because it’s Joe who can find his way on the grid. And it’s all those almost naked residents that make lindens blushing that are dominant population of the metaverse and the main audience of whatever biz comes.
I am not sure if Lindens are trying to get rid of the early (and not so early) residents and to sacrifice us all for having a nice clean biz grid. maybe they are just doing something wrong. Planning of economy and market wasn’t their stronger side, we already know that. But I’ll be sad to see that it’s not the old residents who are forgiving their mistakes, while cruel business world doesn’t.
[...] Dusan’s Theory of Trackability The Lost Continent of Nautilus The Great Tech Debate by Podnutz – Crooked Things Straight – Kensington Prairie Little Mos Eisley – I Cant See You Anymore – Adam and the Walter Boys Little Heaven Bewitched Yxes’ Mission Complete? SL on an Acer Aspire One [...]
[...] Dusan’s Theory of Trackability The Lost Continent of Nautilus The Great Tech Debate by Podnutz – Crooked Things Straight – Kensington Prairie Little Mos Eisley – I Cant See You Anymore – Adam and the Walter Boys Little Heaven Bewitched Yxes’ Mission Complete? SL on an Acer Aspire One [...]
Outstanding list, especially your tag for Castronova’s second book!
I’d add Benjamin Duranske’s Virtual Law to the top of my recommendations. It’s published by the American Bar Association, but it’s tremendously readable, and an absolutely oustanding, comprehensive overview of the legal issues affecting virtual worlds.
For a business person, a cultural theorist, an activist, or anyone concerned with the intersection of the atomic and the digital, Ben’s book is utterly useful.
Ben’s also got an extraordinary knack for explanation without simplification – a digital Carl Sagan in the making.
After returning today from Virtual Worlds London, its good to read a post like this.
Whilst there were lots of great panels at the event, they tended to focus squarely on business and collaborative use of virtual worlds, monetisation strategies, technical scalability and legal issues.
I remember one moment in the break out sessions, in discussion with Jon Himoff and Vint Falken, where I tried to articulate the way I feel about all this, which is similar to this post.
The most amazing thing that has happened in virtual worlds over the last 10 years ( I’d actually go as far as to say ever since its official 70s beginnings ) is Second Life. It’s not even the creation of the world thats important. Lindenworld was a strange and very humble quasi-game. Whilst LL have created a social and economic framework, the evolution of this into SL, is something residents have achieved. Within the petri dish of Second Life’s controlled economy and IP ownership framework, a fascinatingly beautiful intricate social structure has emerged, laced with numerous examples of creativity in all its forms that could only have happened in those controlled ‘lab’ conditions.
At the conference, it felt like the lid is being taken off the petri-dish, exposing its contents to uncontrolled conditions. From the melee over standards in the quest for opensource expansion ( which really ignited in one panel ) to the vast omnipresent overshadowing desire for ‘the enterprise solution’ – those moments of wonder like Robbie’s watch the world are indeed being swamped.
However, such is my belief in those moments, and what’s happened amongst the residents over the last 5 years, that I have no doubt it will quietly continue being wonderful and transformative for peoples lives. Whenever I doubt this, I simply open up the SL5B Message in a Bottle project folder in my inventory, and listen to the hundreds of messages people sent in expressing what SL means to them. Thats the stuff that has really created the narrative of virtual worlds, and always will.
On 10.23.08 Eris said:
All good, but it’s even more fundamental than that.
The best advertisement for any business is a happy customer. One happy customer gets you 3 more who, in turn, get you 7 more and so on and on.
If Linden Lab’s had sat down one day and devised methods to piss-off and alienate their existing core customers (remember them, the ones who built SL into something worthwhile in the first place?) then they could hardly have done better than they have.
Immersive Workplaces – which I’ll happily re-christen ‘Submersive Workspaces’ as they sink without trace – are a perfect example. A huge misstep – get into bed with one of your past critics and ignore your existing customers – and do it at a time of economic crisis when your target market really has better things to do than listen to you.
They really need to get a clue…and fast.
On 10.23.08 Night Singh said:
Comparing freebies in Second Life to the emergence of lower priced items in the real world has one point of important overlap – a place to put your things in the world. Yes, you can have a bazillion items in your Second life inventory, but you can only rez as many as you can afford. In the real world that fridge might cost you a dollar, but I bet it will cost you two dollars to recycle the old one.
[...] ~flirt~ Jewelry Expo Aqua Gift Edition – not worth 1 L$? Gwyneth Llewelyn :: The Hard Facts About the Second Life® Economy GREENE concept :: The dynamics of Dollarbies – advice for content creators Prad Prathivi :: I can haz freebiez Teagan Blackthorne :: Pay It Forward Dusan Writer :: Virtual Worlds and the Trend Towards Free: Second Life and the Object Economy [...]
It was interesting how this was billed as murder but it was really improper account access. However, the reaction to the virtual divorce is the what is most intriguing.
Another recent news item is kids getting arrested in The Netherlands for “virtual theft”
Sl is trashed economy wise, the only one making money is Linden. Take a look at Anshe Chung her land for example, it’s over 50% yellow, there is to much land, to much objects, to many bots, to many freeloaders. Linden can’t expand anymore, mainland is at 2.2 Linden per metre and they release some garbage looking land hoping to rake in 300 USD for a 1024 metres parcel again.
At the moment Linden is making money and collecting tier with void sims, each week over 100 of those get sold but it’s starting to slow down and plenty of these are getting dumped. What is funny is that even with the release of all those void sims Linden isn’t growing at a spectacular higher ratio compared to the past when most sims were bought by estate owners and in world commerces. This gigantic shift really didn’t turn Linden into a huge profit making company. Why do you think they are promoting SL for businesses so hard these days? It’s about the only market segment they can exploit to sell more land. They don’t make efforts towards the regular users who made SL to what it is today.
Items became way to cheap in SL, for many people they are just game goods they can buy for play money 50 Linden for hair, 100 Linden for a dress, for a real dollar you spend hours of shopping, consume a GB of bandwidth and don’t bring any form of stimulation for the economy.
On 10.25.08 Raideur Ng said:
Second Life Military can be as disorganized as a bunch of kids on the street or as organized as an actual military unit. Sometimes personnel -are- former military.
The point is that Second Life is already a platform for such thought. It has politics, technological races, and requires that groups think outside the box to survive boredom and constant bombardment. I command a group of 130+ personnel in said game.
On 10.26.08 SL Pro said:
I fully agree ..without resident creation ability this project will die sooner as it is released. Audience mode lol …pretty well said. I also had the chance to preview the world ..and must say very good graphics. But the wish to drag people with the graphic argument isnt the way as SL shows everyday. For younger gamers the world isnt attractive due to PS3 and for ppl how wanna socialize the graphics arent the important deal. They wanna create easily, sell a bit and meet friends. To think people will reduce themselves to watching and shopping is the wrong way. People want to PLAY ..thats the most important word. And the professional artists will leave soon as they dont sell their products as their are no customers. Think again Henk!
On 10.26.08 Suzanne said:
A couple of thoughts…I actually notice a qualitative difference between products, so like in the real world, I might pay more for something I value more. In SL that’s primarily aesthetics but increasingly it’s design. I just bought sunglasses with a well designed HUD for adjusting them in a myriad of ways.
I agree content creators should be paid for their labor, and better goods can command higher prices, in principle.
I’m one of those people that will pay for a better widget, but I know residents who’d rather make it themselves, in part cause they don’t wanna pay for it, in part cause they (think) they can make it.
I think there’s a lot to improve in SL and therefore a lot to innovate still.
[...] public links >> winner Congratulations: UI Contest Winners Saved by bebond20 on Sun 26-10-2008 Winner of Free Domain Name August 2008 Saved by [...]
In a post about a week ago, Dusan Writer talked about code in the SL viewer that can be used to track any avatar in SL, any time. This was a "feature" of the SL map until late 2006, when it was turned off, but the underlying code is still the…
Keep an eye on Martin Langhoffs presentations! – Moodle Networking, which allows you to“ network” a group of Moodle sites for SSO and other interesting things.. He is also presenting a session on the“ One Laptop per Child” program- check out his sessio…
[...] the Frontier, But It’s Still a Frontier With Second Life as an example, Mitch Kapor famously proclaimed that the frontier age is over. This implies that the early frontiers people have been proven right. [...]
How do people create so many detailed structures and characters on Second Life? Is there a Second Life graphics design agency out there that could help me create something? I’d like to see that!
On 10.30.08 Beau said:
I guess this would be good for people who are addicted to the internet.
Ha ha. I like your revision to my SL formation imaginings (I write as I sip Kombucha Green Tea Decaf by the Yogi Tea company). Had a good laugh reading your post. Yes, that’s exactly what I meant in terms of the potential of 3D space – Photosynth is a…
On 11.03.08 Eris said:
Dusan, you big cheater!
We’d like to read YOUR impressions of SL Fashion please, not our own…
@ Eris – um. I didn’t see any um rules about this. HAHAHA. And yeah, you caught me out. But really….regardless I’m bound to take whatever input I get and come out with something insanely convoluted and about 10 times longer than it needs to be.
[...] was the end of the “frontier” that Mitch Kapor famously proclaimed. But it’s not just that Second Life will be overrun by business types. It’s that [...]
“Because the ‘except’ is that decisions ARE being made now with an eye on two balls”
That would sum up my main concern with this. Its not that pushing enterprise use will hurt the grid, but it certainly looks to me like LL has had its eye primarily on that ball for the last year, and is letting the other one drop.
Call me regressive, but I’d like to see a focus on Second Life as an entertainment platform.
[...] Dusan Writer on the immersive spaces, and concludes that except for the lousy timing there is no direct connection with the open spaces price increase. Of course, LL needs to choose directions: business, ‘commons’ or both? [...]
Dusan–not sure this really makes sense. Why choose Linden Lab as a platform supplier for a private grid?
Actually you can do a lot better with other options. Or just wait it out until the Sun Wonderland offering is being hosted.
As an enterprise buyer of a private grid solution you would need to look at–
* Service level agreement — Linden offers nothing
* Invoicing — Linden offers nothing
* Customer support — I assume RRR would provide this, but how much and is it 24/7?
* Security — maybe a “private” grid but is it a private asset server? Who can cam into the sims? What about encryption?
* References — is anyone other than Linden and RRR using this offering and is satisfied?
Looks like more of the same hype and vaporware that got SL onto the cover of Newsweek (twice). I hope at least enterprise buyers are more experienced in purchasing mission critical software solutions and won’t be herded to slaughter like the brand customers were.
[...] Big Spaceship do have some form in the sphere, having played a pivotal role with 30 Days of Night immersive game. There’s no firm timeframes for when we’ll see the improvements. Like any user interface changes, the challenge will be the get a balance between simplicity for new users and the more complex needs of longer term Second Life residents. Hopefully they’ve already had a browse of some great innovations already created by Second Life residents. [...]
RaR: Good points. What I’d say is the following: business is not purchasing a Grid or participating in a world, they’re purchasing a solution package with a narrow focus. Whether this is the best long-term strategy for getting business to adopt and then guide them along the value curve is to be proven.
Regarding your questions, I’d have to absolutely confirm, but I’m under the following impression:
- The service level agreement is different from the main Grid
- Invoicing is not by Linden Lab
- Customer support is on a per contract basis, but I’m under the impression that RRR offers business hours support which, well, is when their customers are doing business. I think it’s a good question for RRR – does Linden Lab pick up “support spillover”.
- I’m not sure about the asset server. But these sims run separate from the main grid – they don’t show up in search or on the map, the avatar and inventory is not connected to the main grid, etc. They are NOT part of SL. So, for security, my impression is, and based on what Zha said, you can’t cam to them, you can’t find them, you can’t even communicate with the avatars. (And the avatars can’t come to mainland either).
If I had to describe it, I’d hypothesize that the Immersive Workspaces are a completely separate ‘rack’, or perhaps even hosted client-side in some cases (or could be). They are stand-alone boxes, protected by a firewall, and not connected to any of the SL that you and I might know.
- References available on request LOL
Justin commented on the brands and their “experiments” in SL. I’ll post the full interview later today and let his words speak for themselves.
On 11.04.08 Coughran Mayo said:
Dusan wrote: But these sims run separate from the main grid – they don’t show up in search or on the map, the avatar and inventory is not connected to the main grid, etc. They are NOT part of SL. So, for security, my impression is, and based on what Zha said, you can’t cam to them, you can’t find them, you can’t even communicate with the avatars. (And the avatars can’t come to mainland either).
===
Absolutely correct on all points Dusan, at least from my experience – which is with a separate “estate” completely off the LL grid on a private server (not RRR project or IBM for that matter).
This will allow my organization (a non profit) to run a business without naked newcomers, without griefing, without neighbors setting up nextdoor with sights we aren’t interested in seeing. More importantly, without rolling restarts, without four hour shutdowns, without arbitrary changes that devalue my property or cause my costs to rise.
I have nine sims under development for less that the cost of a single LL island. Assets in SL proper can be transferred over only selectively, but the terraforming and building functions are the same as in SL proper, so most anything that you want to have can be built if you have some basic skills.
We encourage our clientele and staff to use the Main Grid, and believe that immersive experience in SL will add to the “reality” of the usage on our GIaB (Grid in a Box), but when its time for staff meetings, or delivering client services, it is great to know we can do it in a much more controlled and stable environment.
I think there is plenty of room for both types of platforms, and if LL really hopes to monetize the Immersive Workspaces project, they should know that their clientele may often start as “ordinary” citizens of Second Life (I sure did!). Neglecting the original will surely strangle an important pipeline to this new level of participation!
I might not fully understand how this works, but it sure seems like a crippling blow to all of the other ‘Solution Providers’ who have been pining for this feature from Linden Lab for years – toiling away on the “consumer platform” Justin refers to. Linden Lab finally offers a solution we’ve all waited so patiently for, but then they funnel every ounce of the new business through a single developer? Am I missing something?
He says, “We hardly have anything actually left on the main grid,” …. Must be nice! Does anyone else have it like that? Maybe I’m the only one still left on the regular grid?
He goes on to say “But I still get a kick out of Second Life.”
and later says “…to be honest with you, that’s how I started.” … referring, once again, to the regular Second Life grid.
At least he has roots in the regular grid the rest of us are stuck using… to be fair, I guess I still get a kick out of Second Life too.
As regular developers, architects, artists, scripters, etc. working in Second Life, we operate under the faith that, even though Second Life has its bugs and challenges, we trust that Linden Lab will continue working on building a transparent, stable and secure platform upon which the community of resident evangelists, entrepreneurs, and developers can build and innovate. At least that’s the dream that keeps me coming back; the promise that we’re all empowered and privileged to be working on a relatively even playing field. But now there’s a special grid for Rivers Run Red enterprise clients, and the regular grid the rest of us use. Maybe I’m wrong. I hope so.
Moreover, it reads as though this special grid, with their enterprise clients, he says, “…can be separate from you and they don’t have to mix. But it doesn’t challenge you.”
Really? That kind of makes me sick, honestly. The power of Second Life is in that very mix you seek to inhibit, imho. Time will tell. There are lessons learned about this from real life we can draw upon if we want to dig deeper.
We all know there are companies, large and small, circling around Second Life, watching, learning, reading, attending in-world presentations and expos, talking to residents, learning the ropes. It is also no secret that business collaboration is among the lowest hanging fruits for the developer community. Yet these circling companies remain understandably cautious, awaiting the same fixes and solutions the rest of the developer community awaits. Clearly this is one of the biggest reasons OpenSim is so attractive. If it can become stable anytime soon, there are many who predict a mass exodus, simply because it can be hosted secure, and private.
But then there are the die-hard residents who stick to Second Life, myself included. We’re the hundreds-strong bullpen of solution providers who continue pitching and evangelizing Second Life at every turn because we believe it is the future of the web. A place, not an application (it took me a while to truly understand that distinction). We keep spending more time, more money, more energy, believing that the next big thing is yet to come, and when it arrives, we want to be ready.
Then one day, one of the ‘next big things’ arrives. The holy grail of business collaboration and enterprise applications is here! Linden Lab unveils a safe, secure application that could be hosted behind corporate firewalls. Maybe now I can dust off this pile of business cards and contacts I’ve collected over the years, and tell them they can finally have that private and secure Second Life application hosted behind their firewalls they’ve been asking about. Imagine the architecture and design they’ll need to support their new virtual headquarters! =) I can hardly wait. All of that patience and faith has finally paid off, because the next generation of virtual workplace has finally arrived.
But wait a minute… only one company gets to offer it? Or, I have to go through this other content creator to bring it to my clients? At extraordinary expense, I would assume… So much for an even playing field. As such, every bit of circling new-biz out there clamoring for a solution like this will be funneled to just one developer? Is that innovation?
If they offer a special grid, why can’t we all build our own special grids? If they’re only offering ’solutions’ then why can’t they duke it out with every other developer working on offering solutions without official endorsement from Linden Lab?
I still have faith in Second Life. But my faith is gradually (necessarily, and unfortunately) shifting from Linden Lab to the Second Life community itself – the former of which I now fully realize is only a bi-product of the latter. Nothing I read here is new, or innovative – though I snarkily trust that when business collaboration goes mainstream, we will be reminded that Justin came up with the whole concept ‘back in ‘08′ when nobody else was aware of it. lol! From what I can tell, they just get special privileges that nobody else has access to without big bucks. That’s all.
If you’re in an organization considering a move into virtual worlds, look to the Second Life community itself… the tinkerers and countless residents and solution providers out there brainstorming the next big thing. Because that’s where the next big thing will come from. That’s where it already is… It is so much more than a place for meetings, and the cross-disciplinary innovation you’ll discover in serendipitous encounters with some of the highest caliber individuals you’ll ever meet (who hang out on the regular grid…at least for now…) will trump a boring corporate grid any day. Even if they switch to plain clothes after work and eventually teleport back and forth…pfft! C’mon…
If Second Life has taught us anything in these past few years, its that rarely does anything great – in a user-generated environment – come from the top down. The future of Second Life will be generated from the bottom up. I sincerely believe that, and that’s where I hang my virtual cowboy hat. Alas, Second Life is still an undiscovered frontier.
There are a few things that strike me, I suppose, about both Immersive Workspaces and more generally Linden Lab’s approach to “product development”. And let me get a little pitch in here because some of this will be covered at Metanomics tomorrow.
But first, I should clarify the “separate grid” and firewall piece and make absolutely clear that my understanding of this comes from a) reading between the lines of the interview and b) comments by Zha Ewry (quoted above) at an Orange Island session this past week.
When I asked Justin specifically about whether Immersive Workspaces sims were “deployed differently” his response was as follows:
“I can tell you that we are very much on a level playing field with anyone else who’s out there in terms of developing things. You obviously know that we are part of the bigger picture, as you know. I think the thing is, is that what the difference is, is we developed our own API to allow us to have a much more seamless way of integrating Web and the 3D specs together. Beyond that, I can’t really go into it because it would be giving away too much of the secrets of what we’re doing to really differentiate us.
But you know obviously you know, you can look at what’s happening, you know what’s happening with Second Life without me having to say anything to you. Mark obviously spoke about it at the Virtual Worlds conference but really that needs to come from Linden to talk to you.”
And really, it’s the last words that hit the heart of the matter. Because our ability as content developers, solution providers, or consultants rests on making plans, placing bets, and investing resources in our understanding of the current market, trends, and future developments. And frankly I’m tired of trying to read the Wikis and forums and attending office hours where not much is really said but a lot is implied.
Why is it that I feel like I always have to try to GUESS where the Lab is going? If, as they say, they are not in the content business, and the Grid needs content, and we’re content developers – why does it feel like you need to be a Kremlinologist to try to understand what’s next for Second Life and the Grid so that I can actually coordinate my investments with my strategic plan (something that looks out beyond the next month or the next viewer deploy) with the efforts of the Lab?
Can’t they publish a fricking newsletter, an update, keep “The Grid” Web site up-to-date, hold solution-oriented information sessions, or ANSWER MY E-MAILS???????????
My second comment is related to the broader idea of the benefits of virtual worlds for business. And frankly I think RRR has it right if you think of it as an adoption path for businesses: the primary investment they’ve made is on the Web side. The “build” doesn’t have anything particularly special about it: it uses PowerPoint feeds, calendars, a bit of data visualization, etc….all things that we’ve seen before, which isn’t to say there isn’t more hidden behind the firewall when they do custom deploys for clients.
So their strategy seems to be build a step-by-step adoption curve: convince customers on ROI, use it for meetings, add a bit of data visualization, and maybe some day you can get people to rez prims and participate in richer experiences.
But what is missing from this model, in my opinion, is the ability for companies to leverage the existing talents and communities of the Main Grid. It isn’t to say that they won’t, but there are problems if you have to create a second account, log in as a different avatar.
As I understood IBM’s approach to the firewall, the content stayed behind the firewall but the avatars were free to leave. Whether RRR also allows this is unclear – maybe you have a choice of installation.
You said it best:
“It is so much more than a place for meetings, and the cross-disciplinary innovation you’ll discover in serendipitous encounters with some of the highest caliber individuals you’ll ever meet (who hang out on the regular grid…at least for now…) will trump a boring corporate grid any day.”
So, they’re “very much on a level playing field” with other developers,” but they enjoy an exclusive relationship with Linden Lab, and “hardly have anything actually left on the main grid.” That doesn’t add up.
I think its important to remember that this isn’t about their business strategy, or bringing companies into Second Life, or trade secrets, or adoption-rate issues, or ROI challenges, etc. This is about a special, exclusive business partnership, and special privileges nobody else has access to. It feels like they get to play the game out of bounds, and I don’t think its fair.
A company like Rivers Run Red, who ‘knew it all along’ is strong enough to deliver innovation without leaning on Linden Lab (or is it the other way around?). No matter how you look at it, every single client they gain through this special arrangement is one less available for the pool of solution providers at work on the regular grid – where clients are hard earned. In the meantime, Rivers Run Red enjoys more work than they know what to do with.
when asked again, why didnt web3d for enterprise business catch on in 1996, 1999, 2001, and in 2003–lol when RRR “invented it”.. I consistantly turn to the answer that until the “tech/vc/funded” companies break away from the “we will be the tools/service/content “google/MS like kings” of something” that drives them all and prevents any multilayer industry to be formed,we will always see this bubble effect occuring over and over.
keystone asks for an “Industry”, but didnt we have this conversation over 3 years ago over pizza.”Industries” require multiple players in multiple positions offering multiple solutions- all being rewarded in some sort of fair method.
The current “VR tech conference sponsors;)” only ask for businesses for themselves and this, like Yoda says, Is why they will fail.;)
Before 2003 btw- i can name a half dozen companies, some much more well funded than LL or RRR that failed to make Web3d for Corporate Inhouse use work…and it had so little to do with the technology offered.
Linden Labs operates the same as it has since day one.It’s named “laboratories, not “industries” btw– for those not listening closely.;)
anyhow.;)
c3
On 11.09.08 lr said:
Question:
Since assets built within the SL grid are sold for “peanuts” -lindens- in a corporate sence financially…Chairs, Desks, Clothes, animations..and all fall prey to the “uncertain” LL TOS and IP ownership conumdrum of “usage by users of the service”
How what/will/is LL and RRR solution to the “transfer” of IP from the main grid to the Immersive Workspace(Tm) running on second grid technology.
We all understood the “issues” of “placing IP” on the LL grid known as Second Life for it’s users….but technologies exist to remove content from the SL “3 cent to a dollar” grid, and “place it unknowingly” to the “one dollar equals one dollar grid” for commercial usage by corporations doing dollar/ for dollar business.?
lets think a little ahead.;) this is something sure to bite the “laboratory” back on the butt very soon unless proper and ethical not to mention legal solutions are put in place. Lets chat about permissions, licenses, and seperate- private- grids- shall we?
Discussion of Immersive Workspaces and Interview with Rivers Run Red…
Dusan Writer has published a lengthy and informative piece on the emergence of business collaboration as VW application showing real ……
On 11.10.08 rightasrain said:
All looks nice enuff, but seems very flakey on details. I really struggle to imagine how a serious enterprise could use SL for mission critical business collaboration. I think this is also too pricey for SME’s. So really I am very curious to see if anyone is going to sign-up for this.
My feeling is that the stiff avatars actually make a business meeting seem these professional. And really this is more useful to people that are working inside SL to begin with–and there isn’t anyone doing that right now.
Nonetheless, Justin has a good view on the future–and I think ultimately he is right. But I don’t think SL will be the supplier of choice no matter how it is packaged. Look at Sun Wonderland, look at IBM, look at Catia and PLM, look at Cisco for serious collaboration and simulation services.
“…that Second Life and other virtual worlds can never fully replace in-class learning…”
I can’t agree with that. Of course, the current “state of the art” is not efficient enough to replace physical sessions as it is but we have to re-shape training sessions to adapt to the unique qualities of metavers. It’s just a question of time, even to be able to use Body Language in training role plays.
[...] Findings Published about Virtual Learning in Second Life November 10, 2008 at 3:40 pm | In Second Life | via Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » Findings Published about Virtual Learning in Second Life [...]
righasrain, I agree. The details are flaky, and the value proposition is questionable. But I’m more confident about Second Life as a platform for business collaboration.
I think most of it is off the big-dollar developer radar, because its happening organically. It is built upon user generated content, from the bottom-up, not top-down – just like the rest of the community. These are skunk works projects, initiated by a few renegade internal evangelists who (often at their own expense) gradually prove to their colleagues that they can be more efficient, or effective using Second Life as a collaboration tool. Organizations are wise to crystallize around the way their employees, students or customers are already using Second Life – rather than trying to hand it down to them.
Tethered to this platform, we’re all sharing the risk when they tie us all to a single “best of breed winner” (in their own words) that could ultimately fail, like so many have before them. We share the risk, but will we really see any benefit if it succeeds, when all of the work is being given to a single content creator?
Having read your comments, I wanted to address a few issues that I feel need a direct answer.
The gentleman from IBM, doesn’t have any insight into RRR, our plans or products. He is purely speculating, we’re actually at a loss to know why he felt he could offer insight into our company? He has no connection to Immersive Workspaces, we as a company, have no professional relationship with IBM.
The firewall issue: We’re under an NDA, both in terms of our dealings with our clients, also our partnership with Linden Lab. We cannot directly talk about road maps, development plans or what other companies are working on. We can only talk about what has been announced.
We’re not telling people to ‘not hang out’ in Second Life. We are though saying, a lot of corporates could have an issue, so we’ve also developed various ways to set up the experience. This still could include being part and parcel of the main grid, or not, as the case maybe. There does though, need to be a solution for Enterprise who are looking for full privacy, Immersive Workspaces offers them that option. This is especially true for the financial sector and Enterprise who need to keep business secured.
Immersive Workspaces is built on the Second Life Grid, the vast majority of our clients, have a mixture of both semi-private and private sims. Immersive Workspaces has been in the market since April 08, with clients ranging from the financial sector, research, technology and consumer brands. We started developing our Immersive Spaces solutions in August 2007. In October, we launched Version 2.0, coupled with the reported strategic agreement between RRR and LL. [press release: http://riversrunred.com/news/ ]
Also, both RRR and LL are keen for solution providers to become affiliates for Immersive Workspaces, plus the products we’re developing. Linden Lab will be hosting events for Solution Providers, this will be an opportunity for you to get involved and ask questions about Immersive Workspaces. Our products will not be sold via a single developer, it will be available to companies who have the capabilities to support clients in the Enterprise sector.
In the meantime, I’m always happy to answer your questions directly: justin@riversrunred.com avatar: justin riversrunred (or Fizik Baskerville)
@ Justin–stills sounds quite vague. It would be very interesting to have more details about how the public/private grid solution actually works. I am very sceptical that there is in fact a secure enterprise solution that is still part of the SL grid.
I appreciate that you have NDAs, but sure seems like a new product needs some kind of technical info to be credible.
Mark Kingdon said that details would be forthcoming when LL announces their “behind the firewall” solution for Q1 2009. I suppose that might also compete with immersive workspaces??
I think the IBM FRI type solution could work, but then what is the benefit for the association with LL?
Usually happy customers are willing to give references and be used in case studies.
Immersive Workspaces is part of Linden Lab, they have an exclusive license for our products and services. They can adopt and use it for any purposes, Grid or any future Firewall releases.
References on request, as I mentioned before, if you have any questions please feel free to contact me.
Rightasrain, please feel free to contact me. I can talk you through your questions, giving answer to security and the roll out plans.
It’s curious to see new advances and new academic institutions popping up in virtual environments… I do personally agree though that in some instances, 3D environments won’t ever be able to fully replace physical learning.
[...] and Strange Loops One of the strange and disconcerting powers of virtual worlds is what I call the strange loop, the odd interplay between the real and the virtual, each embedded in the other, like [...]
[...] have the time to figure out how to update my card. I’ve recently covered the possibilities of “richly rendered” 3D spaces, have looked at the OTOY engine, and have been wowed by Blue Mars (although disappointed with their [...]
Mystery video indeed. I wish I could get that much attention just for taking some architecture design firm’s demo reel and slapping the words “Second Life 2.0″ on top of it in Windows Movie Maker.
Hahaha yeah TRULY Jacek! Really, we should just post old episodes of Leave it to Beaver, tag them Second Life, open space, and cash in on the traffic. Key is to put it in a foreign language I suppose.
Mind you, I spend my evenings watching architectural design reels looking for nice renders so this was a treat.
It basically says that the next SL comes as a plugin for browser utilizing the latest graphics standards. But I’d say this video looks a bit PS3 and Sony Home to me – and maybe it is?
Auwch. That must have sucked! Got – extremely – bad ‘personal’ news by email once (because I lost my phone a few days earlier, and the friends did not have the new number and wanted to make sure I got it), and it’s a ’sit behind PC and think they are making a joke’ kind of moment. Until you grab for the phone or some other kind of ‘old skool’ communication tool for confirmation.. .
On 11.13.08 rightasrain said:
yeah, surprised Phil didn’t just ban him from the Lindenworld estate. Email is so unreliable these days.
@rightasrain – And the Lindenworld estate isn’t unreliable?
I have been quite impressed by the Obama campaign’s use of technology for coordination, outreach, advertising, etc.
It’s quite an achievement for a presidential campaign to use technology so effectively yet so apparently effortlessly, and had Cory been involved it seems likely that it would have been more than impressive: It would have been amazing.
Hahaha hmmm what Bettina? This is actually a really stunning re-work of the server architecture over on Eve. I’m not a techy but the techy folks I know are drooling over this, and I’d call it a significant thing. So, the question of course is – sheesh, why not HERE.
On 11.13.08 Annyka Bekkers said:
The folks at Linden Lab could learn a lot about running a virtual world from the people at Eve online.
We prepare a publically accessible statistic system that shows the current demographic trends in Second Life and all the other OpenSimulator grids by life data aqusition.
The service will be available soon and uses real grid information. We expect it to show a trend comparable to the above grahics as outcome.
Greetings from the real world,
Kai Ludwig
Director
TalentRaspel virtual worlds Ltd. http://www.talentraspel.de
On 11.14.08 Alberik Rotaru said:
I may be too much of a cynic, but this rhetoric reads to me as very close to ‘Let them eat tofu.’ Rhetoric has context, it is uttered in a place and time and for a reason.
The outgoing president of a certain large republic in North America has a famous habit of setting up an outrageous proposition, assigning it to his opponents, and then attacking that proposition despite its considerable variance from what his opponents were actually advocating.
Who argues against the right to innovate? No-one. What does the right to innovate mean? Making new stuff that works? When did the enterprise Philip Rosedale chairs last do that? But if the speech is actually about the right to cause land panics it makes considerably more sense, and can be critiqued.
RightAsRain Rimbaud unpacks it better than I ever could:
So really, I find the whole thing to be just a huge amount of noise and just really gives me a headache. And then when you try to ask sensible questions to people like Mark Kingdon, they don’t answer it. They avoid it. And they throw spin and hype back in your face, which I think is really unacceptable.
I like floaty as much as the next guy, but LL’s chair and LL’s CEO need to get way past floaty real soon now.
I don’t disagree. On the other hand, I’ve come to the reluctant conclusion that the further away Philip is from the actual “running of the Grid” the better. Let him fantasize about cell panels on roofs or whatever.
(By the way, on that topic, one of the issues with this type of thing is that the technology is often stolen and salvaged for parts. There is difficulty putting communication infrastructure in many places because phone wires are stolen, stripped, and sold as scrap. Why he thinks that solar panels on roofs won’t face the same challenge I have no idea).
Let Philip gaze off in the distance. He’s no longer part of Second Life, as far as I’m concerned. He talked about getting his hands into innovation again, such as the viewer, and then they outsourced it. We are seven days shy of it being one year since Philip last blogged – and at the time, he promised to blog monthly.
He’s living in his own reality. If that isn’t true, I’d love to hear what he’s doing, how it impacts the Grid, why we should care.
All of which places the onus on M.
You ever hear the 100 Days theory of the Presidency? On the theory that you establish a tone, systems, focus, and deliver tangible results in your first 100 days in office. If you fail to do this, you’ve set a context for your subsequent work.
How do you think M did his first 100 days? He’s now at about 180 days “in office”. With Philip wandering off fantasizing about solar panels, it’s in his hands really.
[...] forgotten about this until this morning’s post on Philip’s infatuation with solar panels and other real life [...]
On 11.14.08 Corcosman Voom said:
Ah, Da Future. Smooth performance combined with a bit of freedom to create content.
Hurry up and get here, Future!!
On 11.14.08 rightasrain said:
apparently Eve is hosted and run by IBM
On 11.14.08 Alberik Rotaru said:
@Dusan
I have no idea about M because he says so little to the community that it is impossible to judge what he’s doing. He appears to have done nothing to improve the FOAD style of LL’s customer relations. There are no real signs of improvements to the UI. The land panic does not speak well of his engagement with the customer base. His promise to talk with customers on the SL forum followed by his total silence was incomprehensible.
Did he intend to honour the forum promise and then forget?
There’s been speculation on the forum that LL is under financial stress, perhaps because of the increase in the price of short term money, and this has forced the increase in the renamed Openspace price and the invention of the new Narrowspace sim. When a company behaves this incomprehensibly, and offers a rationale this vacuous, it is reasonable to assume they have reasons that they cannot admit publicly admit. Every day of M’s continuing silence contributes to that fear.
The spin round the quarterly stats do not encourage confidence either. The statement that premium membership does not matter because LL pays out in stipend what it makes in premium payments is simply weird. That statement could be true only if premium memberships were not paid in RL cash and the stipend paid in LL play money.
So, M’s performance could be judged as good, but really badly communicated. Or it could be judged that his performance as CEO is of a par with his performance as communicator. Time will tell.
“Google Trends analyzes a portion of Google web searches to compute how many searches have been done for the terms you enter, relative to the total number of searches done on Google over time. We then show you a graph with the results – our Search Volume Index graph. “
Is it still possible to call a mulligan and call up Grace McDunnough?
On 11.14.08 rightasrain said:
er…no one scream koolaid in not crowded lindenworld:
from the BBC excerpt in the word’s of the eraserheaded hero of the metaverse:
“What does the future of the internet look like? It looks like a world map where even the furthest corners of the planet are able to get online because of the decentralisation of power generation.
What technology is getting me excited right now? Electricity.”
[...] and semi (but not really) reversal by LL, some of the best blogs have turned into a waste of time. Dusan Writer’s is no exception, today’s hilarious post being a bait and switch post with the remark [...]
On 11.15.08 Clare said:
Justin,
Very brave move – whilst my fellow bankers read Information Week, and perhaps even the broadsheets on how sex, divorce, porn is still alive in Second Life – we sit here thinking, well ok chaps now for an *immersive* (and that word is hugely overused) meeting on our behind firewall version of……Second Life.
Educators are far down the road with offerings from Sun’s Wonderland, and Princeton sure will demo the IWS and more will buy your product.
However, Linden Lab is not a company I would strategically brand tie to UNLESS it’s a short-term approach. PItch the product in, garner market interest – sell signiciant volume. Close out and walk away.
Even developing the platform further with mobile / added on services – I still fail to see why this would compete with more cost effective already embedded technologies other than the hype of that short term approach mentioned.
Rivers, don’t have a strong reputation in the web technology market and certainly suffered damage from their developments in Second Life so I wonder if this is the last ditched attempt for this company to create a successful product.
Dusan, I hate this liberal guilt over Web 2.0 and new media tools and their crying because the third world doesn’t have them and they “shouldn’t push them on the third world”. Good Lord, even in the poorest African countries people have cell phones that are central even to their economy and move money around and people go 30 miles to use the Internet. They don’t berate the North or West because they don’t have these tools, they will get them, as they develop the rest of their societies. I don’t get the huge guilt trip over Web 2.0, when there wasn’t an equivalent over the original Internet itself. People just went about trying to put it in where they could. They didn’t sit around wringing their hands and saying “I won’t go on the Internet until everybody in the Third world has it, and I won’t shove it down their throats”. So its graphics and bandwidth intensive? That will change, and is already changing, and eventually it will either slim down itself or there will be slimmer variants.
As for Philip’s rantings, I remain somewhat unimpressed. I’m one of the digitally excluded. I can’t build to save my life in Second Life and I can’t Photoshop. Do I now get a grant from Philip? I mean, seriously, that’s whack. Again, as countries develop, they lay all this on, it comes in time, just like any other medium.
The “right to innovate” strikes me as a strange, and not legally grammatical locution. People have the right to free expression, or the right to receive and impart information across frontiers. That’s all. If you start talking about “the right” to innovate, you imply states have to grant this in some positive way by payouts, or you imply non-state actors like companies can take it away or something. It’s just plain weird.
Then this idea that these fresh thirdworld minds are going to come at problems in some special innovative way that will be feted just because it’s “the third world”. I mean, Jesus, people are people. Do you think there’s a special Third World way to look at the problem of people shitting in their water supply? or burning up their fossil fuels and polluting their air? Either you believe science is universal, or you don’t. It’s not like there is some special magical perception conferred on people in undeveloped countries that will now be forced upon us, and everbody else has to make way.
I find this sort of fanciful talk about the third world to come from wealthy Americans who haven’t really spent much time *in* the third world, or they’d be less romantic, and “get it” better about why countries don’t develop.
@ Prok – What I’ve learned from the OHAfrica folks is NOT to assume you know what someone else needs. They decided that we had the expertise in Canada (medical knowledge, systems knowledge, etc.) to help set up an HIV clinic in Lesotho. And first, we do: the level of training at the time in Lesotho, the lack of physicians, etc. meant there was a benefit from transferring knowledge.
What was interesting about it was that the attempts to transmit knowledge, which included Web-based approaches, didn’t work as well as just saying “OK, these are the things we know and have access to, how do you want to use them”.
The reason the project was so effective was that the response was: “send some physicians over here to help” which meant getting an on-the-ground perspective of the issues. It wasn’t a technology issue, it was a people one.
What’s interesting is that of the physicians and others who WENT, the ones who were successful were the ones with the humility to say “I’m at your service” rather than “Here’s how it’s done” – the latter didn’t understand the cultural context and were generally ignored.
On this basis, I don’t see a difference between the developing world and the rest of it: there are people with knowledge or resources, and there are other people without it. It’s not much more complicated than that.
And like the rest of the world, the solution usually isn’t the application of technology because, well, because it’s there, but rather facilitating listening, because often the most intractable problems don’t have technology as their solution – often it’s something simple.
So my tendency is to agree with you: the idea that we take a backpack full of laptops and solar panels or whatever and like Johnny Appleseed dispense technology in our wake seems to me to be paternalistic and misguided.
Having said that, this doesn’t discount the desire to make a difference, whether it’s in the developing world or around the corner: You tell me know I could be useful to you, and I’ll respond with whatever I know and will try to bring whatever resources I may have at hand.
It’s likely we’ll both realize there were things we didn’t know we didn’t know, but those things are less about what “world” we come from, or how good our graphics cards are, and more about, as you say, just being people.
I agree that the ESC version of CSI was a failure despite what the ESC say. Like many of their previous projects, they developed fantastic machinima, but the concept did not live up to the hype of those videos. We could talk about why in length, but the real point of my comment is not to critize the ESC, but to state that I do believe CSI and other franchises aren’t completely off base thinking that there is potential to create immersive experiences, but it would require them to throw away what they “know” and change. People no longer want to be advertised at and creating commerical SIMS that are just blatant advertisements for their franchise and others is not fun or immersive and they aren’t fooling anyone. If they truly want immersion, they should throw away their current agenda, and start by creating something of value to the existing community and go from there. If they are ever willing to be open to expanding while considering the public good, then they can give me a call, and I would be more than happy to help them (or they can just continue down the same path of failures).
@Gianna – I really think that James Cameron’s project, Avatar, will blow the lid off storytelling across media, and of course change our perspectives of 3D entertainment.
It always depends on how immersive someone wants to get. CSI has been the basis for a handful of console and computer games, yet the best Crime Scene Investigation type experience has been the Condemned: Criminal Origins series from Monolith. The difference? The investigation parts can be interesting to watch on television, but are tedious as the sole play mechanic in an interactive experience. Condemned added, can you guess, combat to the narrative? A little action is needed. Some fun and maybe some scares. Unfortunately Linden Lab is nearly allergic to the concept of fun and while it would be easy for them to add facilities to the simulator code to allow development of action and more interactive experiences, they continue to stroke a flaccid business tool to no happy ending.
I think the reason people are getting bored with Virtual Worlds is because there has been no innovation in quite some time. It looks like what MIT is doing could be achieved with a web came and video streaming in both directions.
Ack… so much information! I especially enjoyed the last video you linked from Jon Brouchard. I think he must have been giving this kind of talk many times because it is a refined and elegant collection of key aspects of SL as a collaborative 3D environment from the architectural perspective. In my post that you linked, I had a thought about the exploration of space without an avatar in google earth, and how I was a bit lost without that forcing function of perspective (namely location and scale).
You (Dusan) covered a lot more ground, including the flow of geographic data, and it reminded me of one of the GIS killer app aspects of Earth was how it allowed the seaming effortless and seamless convergence of so many sources of geographical data. This was no small thing. I hope in the future we have a SL world that does the same kind of data flows.
Dig a little deeper into Viwogeo and you will find Skidz Partz and a new map application for the Second Life Grid, (not to be confused with other unidentified, unpublished Linden Lab Grid(s)).
The Second Life Map & Search features used inSL and the Second Life web site, including the auction pages, is just terrible and increasingly worthless.
I question, considering all of Rosedale’s rhetoric and the competing technologies out there, Google Earth, Google Maps and Microsoft’s versions, why Linden lab has neglected, maybe very deliberately, these primary and valuable discovery and navigation tools.
Well it looks like someone in the inSL resident community just may call the Lab’s bluff and trump the Lindens at their own game.
Open the map, Zoom out, and then use the left side search tab. OMG!! Fast, more current then the inSL LL version. and easier to use. Yes their SL grid map graphics are now a bit primitive but I am sure will get better. Just think what they can do with it.
I think this is fantastic, since this will really step on the Lab’s toes.
Thanks JeanRicard: I meant to point GVURL out, but I couldn’t remember what it was called! I blogged about it previously here.
On 11.17.08 BizOwner said:
Speaking as a business owner who came onto SL earlier in the year to examine the potential for using it for collaboration / customer service…
There are a fundamental problems not being addressed in general by SL / LL regarding the business community. They were dealbreakers for bringing my business into SL.
For starters, the TOS makes abundantly clear that you essentially do not own your account, your property, or anything you do in SL. Sorry, but businesses just don’t tolerate a situation where they don’t truly own or licence their assets in a legally meaningful way.
Next, privacy. I have yet to see a clear discussion of who logs what, when and where, and how those logs are kept and regulated. By discussing my business in SL, I am leaving myself open to having my content and privacy exposed without any clear idea of how anything is regulated legally. Again, this is in no way acceptable.
Service issues: the site goes down frequently, it crashes, there seems to be no way to subscribe easily to maintenance notices or service interruptions, and sometimes you can be blocked out of logging in for literally an hour while a problem is being solved. Fine for personal… not fine for business.
Lastly, the inability to back up your own content to a third-party source, which is especially significant considering the issues with SL’s system and inventory loss. Not only do I not truly own my content in a meaningful way, but I can’t even back it up. Again, dealbreaker.
I don’t know if the above is being dealt with any significant way with this ’separate’ and vague system being discussed above, but I can say that no serious business implementation is really going to occur until issues like the above are solved. I’m a big fan of SL and it has huge potential, but I have no serious intention of pissing my content / time / privacy down a well into LL’s obscurity. Businesses need ownership, consistency, reliability, and legal rights, in order to seriously adopt any platform. Right now SL is light years from that.
On 11.17.08 Prokofy Neva said:
Keystone, if I ever had my doubts that you were a collectivist, they were utterly removed with your post here.
This all falls into place for me a little better, by what Justin just said here: “Immersive Workspaces is part of Linden Lab, they have an exclusive license for our products and services.”
Bingo! It’s like RRR then becomes a subsidiary of the Lab, or in a joint venture. Of course you have to go through the Lab! Because development costs money, programmers and staff have to be paid with money, and this folly of opensource carrying the day, and freebies carrying the day, doesn’t cut it. You can’t earn income in that fashion. Killer apps don’t come from opensource; they come from proprietary software and services that are developed in secret with FIC. That’s the way of the world. We can only hope they pick *good* FIC.
Sure, it would be better if they had open bids, taking 3 proposals after an open and transparent RFP, just like a government or big contracting company. But they’re a little software company and they do what they want. It’s a free market. That’s how freedom works. They are not required to hand over all their software to you.
You have — ridiculously — placed your entire faith in all this wikitecture opensource dreck. And no, it doesn’t deliver. You don’t do complex things like develop spaces behind firewalls unless you are already IBM and already pay IBM to have Zha fly around, or you are a company with an NDA that has an exclusive contract.
If you think opensource provides business solutions, um, go get the Clever Zebra business-in-a-box package. The Lordfly stadium is free, and there’s a lot of other free stuff.
Honestly, I seriously don’t get what you all are whining about. You didn’t get the deal? When you were featured on the website for the SL Grid; when you are selected for Showplaces; when you are given acres of press steered by the Lab, Keystone, we never hear a complaint from you about the unfair system. We never hear the sorts of complaints *we* make here in the cheap seats on the mainland about a rigged FIC system. You benefit from it, but the minute it doesn’t really deliver, you go all opensource on it, chastizing the Lab for being a capitalist instead of a communist. It’s hilarious.
I don’t know why the mainland or the open grid isn’t very compelling these days to Justin or his clients, but he’s been around since the dawn of time and he’s worked every angle and tried every conceivable model on it, and I simply fail to see why we all have to be together in one big unhappy collective farm on one grid. This is the constant complaint of course of Khamon Fate. Why can’t there be more than one grid?
Why can’t there? It’s only ideology, and this silly “connect us all to a world [just one] that can improve the human condition”. Hey, what if a business doesn’t want to be all connected, and just wants to sell, oh, I don’t know, cars and cigarettes? Maybe they don’t want to be *forced* to “better the human condition”. And why should they? It’s a free market!
All this happy bullshit about the commmuuuunity and all its viiiibrancy is a shill.
Basically, Keystone, your beef is summed up in this way: “Why didn’t you pick me?” Had they picked you, we wouldn’t be hearing about any “community” I assure you.
Getting a feature or two from Linden Lab, next to dozens of others, is a far cry from an exclusive business relationship.
It does seem though, in light of this new direction for the Lab, “pick me” might become a necessarily new business model for work in SL. Who’s next?
On 11.18.08 rightasrain said:
inflation cause price increases…but world is not experiencing inflation–so this is just price gauging in times of economic confusion. I hope consumers will remember which companies try to gauge and take their spend elsewhere. Oil is less than $60/barrel.
You can’t ride the wave up and then forget your customers or employees when things get tough. This is moment of truth and time to show what any organization is all about at its core. Pirates or worthy suppliers?
Great interview and great to hear more about Immersive Workspaces. RRR has placed an enormous investment in the Second Life platform and everyone who participates in its internal economy. Justin’s dedication over time is moving. I’m a believer that a “rising tide lifts all boats” for the platform. Email was not fit for business either, in the bad old days.
On 11.19.08 David Crespo said:
Keystone, if you cannot see what is happening here I question your credentials in dealing with RL business situations. Rivers Run Red is doing the right thing here, he is not in a position to talk about LL’s plan for their firewall solution. This is the basis of an NDA, he is not allowed to talk about it. Why you feel the need to continue raising this moot point? This is not about YOU, this is about Linden Lab waiting for the right time to address this issue. They need to have it all in place, not for the sake of your feelings, they need to steal a march on their competitors and secure their market position. If you’re a professional content developer, act like one.
RightasRain, I have read a lot of your blog posts relating to these points. I have to say what you’ve been speculating is bordering on scandalous accusations. Utterly unprofessional.
Your posts are deliberate attempts to stir and create further speculation.
I attended an inworld session with RRR/LL talking about the potential of Solution Providers getting involved with this new commercial project. I also noticed both your absences. Shame, as I walked away informed and excited about the potential of business collaboration. This was open to all Solution Providers, it was well attended and all questions met with solid answers.
As Orange also said, ‘rising ride lifts all boats’. If you cannot rise with this, then maybe you’re not rising to the challenge of the Mark Kingdom’s coined term Second Wave.
If you think blindly investing your work, your money, and your time in a platform without keeping a close and critical eye on its sudden, uncharted and potentially questionable moves, then I question your judgment just the same.
Nothing about this discussion is trivial, scandalous or unprofessional, and we’re simply reviewing specific points he describes in a public interview regarding a project in which we all have vested interest. Nobody asked him to reveal terms hidden in the NDA, nor would we expect as much!
….Mind you, I’ve always bought the metaverse roadmap definitions, distinguishing between mirror worlds and immersive ones. What’s intriguing about SL and the Grid is that it’s, in some ways, acting like it’s both with more real/virtual world connections. You see life-logging of a sort in SL as well, and that MIT project is a lot like augmented reality, in some respects. So I suppose it’s important to define what “quadrant” we’re talking about.
Lively was immersive, but the only level you could get to really was decorating and chat.
[...] no small thing, but maybe they can port the cartoons over from Lively and we can all meet in virtual Ancient Rome. Empires come and go, and others just relocate. Tagged: 3d web, lively, mycosym, Second Life, [...]
It continues to bother me to no end that the press lumps all systems with avatars into “virtual worlds”. A world is a large connected place that you traverse seamlessly (except for border crossings I suppose). Applications that serve up disconnected rooms are not worlds. That will be the case with Blue Mars as well, which while supporting larger spaces, will still be disconnected. Some day the press and eventually the general public will come to appreciate the power of a connected world, where you an just pick a direction and walk until the ban lines or end of the map get in your way.
Whoah! Big news. Now watch the mainstream media declare the death of virtual worlds. After all, if the biggest online company in the world has given up on them then that must be the end of it! *sigh*
And I’m sorry, but I don’t buy that Google Earth is a virtual world, it’s missing a key component – the MMO bit. Where are the avatars, the socialisation? It’s the social networking aspect that makes virtual worlds rock. That’s why they don’t even have to be 3D, like Habbo and Club Penguin.
On 11.20.08 Robustus Hax said:
Until these other worlds offer the creativity that Second Life has to offer they will flop. Blue Mars is one to look at, although the everyday person will not be able to build, I’m sure there are some positives in that, but the thing that still keeps me in Second Life is that the limitations are still very much boundless.
Re: Blue Mars – it has some good talent behind it. Syd Mead is involved. Looks beautiful. But the theme and business model is a lot like Entropia no? And while it may have had a visual edge, Entropia has just announced that it’s switching to Crysis as well for graphics – so what will the difference be?
Blue Mars won’t allow content creation in world, you’ll need to either be approved or buy a grid or whatever, very complicated and only top-end developers need apply.
Mycosym – nice approach, mini Grids and so on, think openSim but with nicer graphics – but again, content will be developed external to the world, no rezzing prims, although taking advantage of current 3D content pipelines. But their economic model is odd, at least the way I understand it.
I don’t see anything on the horizon (OpenSim excepted) in which you an rez prims in world – but you tell me…is this a pro or a con? Maybe with 3D programs like TruSpace (free), Blender, Poser, etc. we should all be making stuff on our own, but there’s something different to me about being able to build in a social space. Otherwise it’s more of a game somehow.
[...] popular or because Google didn’t like the fact that people were using it for sexual purposes. At Dusan Writer’s Metaverse, he notes that the service wasn’t very good to start with, something with which I concur. When I tried it out, I was disappointed by the small number of [...]
Umm, just a minor caveat. Vivaty and Lively are both true 3D. Why do you call them “not three dimensional” and “2.5D”? Metaplace, Habbo, those are 2.5D. And Maple Story is 2d.
On 11.20.08 David Crespo said:
Keystone,
My point here, is why are you questioning it, are you even interested in this area, are you capable of supporting and delivering Enterprise based work?
I had a look at your web site, there is no evidence of integration work? Your architecture work is excellent, does that though mean you could support this kind of product offering, or would want to?
Enterprise, which from experience, requires a different set of skills, is very different to creating great looking builds in Second Life.
IMHO I think we will see a lot more professional services companies coming into our space. Don’t fear the solution, be worried about the solution that gives the BIG agencies a turnkey opportunity without the need for costly project management and origination.
Things have of course happened since you wrote your reply.
This is what I have found out:
I know from discussion with others Solution Providers, they’re pitching this right now, they want to get ahead of the curve. Doesn’t that also tell you something? I for one have also started showing the Immersive Workspaces video to my clients.
Get involved now, or be left behind. Evolve, the nature of any business/market is change. Blaming others for ‘your lack of business’ is a bad sign, maybe you need to readdress your business model?
David – I’ll just chime in here briefly to stand in Keystone’s defense a bit: I honestly believe that Wikitecture was one of the first, and is still one of the best real world use cases for virtual worlds. It includes deep integration with Web-side services and databases, offers a deeper purpose than meeting (not that meeting isn’t a deep purpose, it’s just that whereas meetings have multiple venues, Wikitecture is the best example of actually using the tools of a 3D collaborative platform to its fullest), has had proven results including acknowledgment outside the virtual world industry, awards, evangelism to a wide audience, and transparent sharing of the case studies and results. (I look forward to specific examples and case studies from the RRR work being shared so that we can all continue to enhance our best practices).
All of which is to say I think Keystone has actually been ahead of the curve and in fact REMAINS ahead of the curve. There are others who I consider in-world architects, whereas what Keystone has struck upon is using a 3D environment for cross-platform collaboration work. Architecture is, in a sense, not at all what Keystone’s work strives to explore and ACHIEVES – it’s just a nice short hand in a sense, meant to embody not buildings but rather information space, user interaction with archetypes, collaboration, and meaning.
So, I’m not entirely sure that his issue is with evolving business models. His problem has been similar to my own: change is good, creative renewal is good, but it’s nice to be able to place a marker somewhere and plan business activities based on an understanding of the evolving road map of a technology and to leverage the advantages of whatever technology path you choose, for whatever strategic reasons.
I was under the impression, and still believe, that one of the platform advantages of Linden Lab’s products (the “Grid” and Second Life) is the opportunity for serendipity, collaboration, and access to a community of creative, talented people. This move has lacked a road map that’s visible to the wider community (until very very recently), and doesn’t explicitly encourage what I also believe are a few of the main value propositions of the Grid as a whole.
In many ways I think everyone’s on the same page here: let’s advance the platform, let’s keep the doors of collaboration open, let’s understand what the future holds and where we’re going. I don’t see any of what has been said as at cross-purposes (although I, like Keystone, don’t understand what open source has to do with anything).
And I’d like to hear how your business model is changing David: what are you now considering that you weren’t before? What worked before that will now work because of Immersive Spaces and other applications like it? Where do you get information on the road map? And do you believe that access to the innovation community of SL is an important platform advantage for the Lab’s products? Can you point us to the awards and wider press/publications you’ve had of your work so we can understand your perspective a bit more (and seriously, I mean this in an honest way, I don’t mean to be snarky, I’m just curious).
Overall though, and again, I think everyone has shared the belief that the future is arising, it’s the means by which we can grab hold of it that are perhaps muddled a bit.
This decision has the potential to affect everyone, so I struggle with the assertion that I shouldn’t concern myself with this just because I’m only a design consultant.
I do sincerely hope this really is what’s best for business, and all of the other people using Second Life. I also hope it addresses each of BizOwner’s concerns (the same concerns we all have, even on the regular grid), because I really do want to see SL succeed. I’ll admit I’m probably being overly skeptical, and could have this all wrong. But its just that – down here below the high level enterprise business stratum, we can still see the wreckage from other decisions and investments that didn’t go according to plan. Since this is one we’re all tied to, I think it only makes sense to examine it, and ask questions.
Well what’s odd about the 2.5D meme is – well, WHY did I think it was 2.5D? Because it really didn’t feel 3D to me. And I’m going to chalk it up to a few things, although I really should log in again to have a look and make sure my memory serves, but here goes:
1. As I recall, your camera position was limited
2. This did not allow you to have a sense that you were actually in control of your avatar, or “seeing through their eyes”
3. Although it may have been a 3D space, I don’t remember being able to rotate my view around from the back – am I wrong about that?
4. You moved your avatar by lifting it up with your mouse button and moving it around like a chess piece.
OK, so maybe it’s not technically a 2.5D space, but these things made it feel less fully ’rounded’ somehow than a true 3D space like you’d find in a game, whatever. It’s more how it feels, I guess, than technically what it was. I mean, sure, it wasn’t Isometric or whatever but I don’t remember feeling like I was actually “in” my avatar because of the camera and the avatar movement controls.
Finally, I didn’t mean to lump Vivaty in as a 2.5D world, it just ended up in a paragraph about virtual environments popping up. In any case, I corrected the post.
But there’s something in all of this about when does an avatar feel like “you”, does it need to be 3D to do that, do avatar movement controls matter, and in the absence of decent game mechanics or other features, if it doesn’t feel like you, (or an imaginary version of same) then what the heck are you there for in the first place.
[...] was a nice experiment, but it will soon be over: Google Lively will be discontinued. As Dusan Writer says: But the surprise virtual world entry is the one that arrived before Google Lively, in my [...]
as for one with over 20 years “ahead of the web3d curve” i can only suggest that the real problem being expressed is the same one that has caused 2 “past” web3d bubbles to fizzle into “who- wheness”?.
A successful “media” Industry needs set’s of tool makers, end service providers, and platform providers that all provide COMPLIMENTARY componants to a ” projects” success.
If Linden, like MANY of the web3d “companies” before it, wont allow itself to be a “part” of a ecosystem for business, but only “THE” business…, then my “ahead of the curve” experience tells me youll all be selling flash based visuals again in a year.:)
Adobe walked foolishly into the “service-tools” arena last year and was slapped hard by the creative media industries… Google/you tube is just about ready for a rude wake up call from the media makers for NOT understanding that ALL must eat for any sort of industry to take place.
We wont even go into the current auto industry and its banker woes as a slow example of the obvious loss of industrial organizational thinking in the us and the corporate world in general.
anyhow.
RRR wont be providing those blogged hyped “cutting edge platform” avalon workspaces for Lively it seems:) and except for the cross grid IP violations i worry about, they can work with Linden fine:) and offer any products they agree too….
But lets not fool ourselves into any thoughts that this is a good thing for a wider web3d/ vr industry. Its not. In fact i havent seen almost any activity in the last 2 years of SL mania, that has been truly targeted at any real professional organizations and industry. My NYVRMSIG and SFWEB3D orgs from 96 and 2001 with none of the resources of the “current” VR pundits backers was truer to an “industry birth organization” than any of the web3d “ning sites” collecting mailing list names for pr announcement day after day.
i think it was livelys “horrible” drag the curser/avatar around by mouse- interface that “gave” you the limited feel of sapce and the ability to navigate in it.
there were camera/poc controls, but they worked really poorly as interface IMO, and coupled with the limited” as far as my mousepad goes” technique of av dragging it created a very “limited” feel space.
but it was all 3d engine driven…-)
i still think the other blogs just kept rss/copy /pasted the wrong info— from one blog to another.
On 11.21.08 Riven Homewood said:
I had this feeling at AM Radio’s last exhibit too. I watched the other visitors interact with they setting, and realized they were using it to make their own story. People wearing demon masks flew high over head on giant geese, a couple in 1950s clothing drove an old car down the road. I rode my horse around, exploring, then sat on him in the wheat field watching the show.
On 11.21.08 radar said:
AM Radio has a way of capturing a moment of stillness, both full of and totally devoid of action at the same time. I love his builds.
Beautifully written, Dusan. That sense that there is something just around the corner and yet to come impels me to continue my virtual/actual quest. Its elusiveness is sometimes frustrating…
[...] Six months ago Philip Rosedale handed over the operational tiller of Second Life to Mark Kingdon, formerly of Organic, so that he could focus on vision, and technology, and electricity. [...]
Well, Eric Reuter has his opinions, and I sort of agree with them, but also don’t. It seems to me the current use model of SL can only go so far, so I think he’s wrong there. I do think he’s right about the current rep of SL in the mainstream press, but a lot of that is willful ignorance and stupidity on their part.
Great interview, Dusan, at least it shows he’s paying attention and that he does seem to care. Also you do realize the LL employees felt the punching bag effect of the reaction to openspaces, as opposed to how the blithering masses think LL doesn’t care and is trying to take them for a ride.
Great interview Doug! I feel I really have an idea of the state of play at Linden Lab now. I have been thinking a lot lately about how Web 2.0 and Virtual World technology have a lot offer each other, even though Second Life continues to be pretty isolated from the Web (something that it seems will improve in the future according to Mark Kingdon).
Second Life and Wikipedia are the two great experiments in collaborative co-creation of our times. They show us many of the keys to creating the kind of participatory global culture that will be foundation of sustainable living, and the way to create a viable alternative to this economy of escalating consumption that has us in its death grip today.
I am happy that SL continues to have a visionary hand at the helm.
Excellent content and style…keep up the good work!
On 11.22.08 Daniel Regenbogen said:
Nice interview, Dusan. Reading M’s answers might make people think “Oh how great and shiny everything is and how even better it will be!”. And yes, it is. On the surface. Underneath it things look very different. People were always critical of LL, but they also were always hoping and (most of them) ready to acknowledge positive developments. Many of those voicing harsh critic about this or that on the other hand still defended LL in general. For many, these times are over.
What I see these days is a more and more growing “F*** LL” mentality – not really a surprise looking at how bad they messed with us. I just checked the economic statistics: 1105 regions less than on oct 31st – while there should be some 750 more. People are giving up on SL, not even waiting anymore for january when the price hike will come into effect. People just don’t like to give their hard earned money to street robbers and backstabbers.
The OS price change was a necessary business decision? Even if it was (and I seriously doubt it really was, at least not in this totally mad dimension), the way it was done and communicated is even more upsetting than the 67 percent price hike itself. Inviting people to discuss, naming forum threads like “Discussion with…” or “More talk with…” and then more or less *never* really discussing or talking? How poor is that, what does it tell us just how “important” the residents are to LL? And the crown of it being an “ammended” policy/price change that actually is worse than the original. “Look what a great company we are, we listen to our customers! We won’t cut off your heads in january, we will only cut off your right hand! … Your head we will cut off in july. Enjoy!”
So Mr Kingdon, I’m sorry (actually, I’m not), but I call your talking a smoke screen. The part about the OS debacle are an attempt to nicely wrap up lies and LL’s own mistakes and messups.
The one good thing about all this is, that LL’s terribly poor business and customer relation behaviour most likely will give the development of alternatives a big push. I just had my 2nd rezzday, and while there are quite a lot older residents around, in these 2 years I witnessed many crisises, from gambling ban to VAT to discrimination attempts at SL5B. Through all of this there was and is one red line: the total lack of customer appreciation and customer care. Well, the words are there – but not the actions to show that there is more than just nice words. I sticked to LL/SL through all of this, I critisized, but also defended them. Despite all problems, I still saw SL as something great – and I hate seeing it being destroyed from the inside. SL gave me something great, it changed my life. But even the biggest credit some day runs out, and I am at this point now. I will not expand my SL business anymore (oh well, LL destroyed it anyways), I will not invest a single RL dollar anymore, and I will watch the alternatives closely. As soon as they become *real* alternatives, I will move the center of my online existence away from SL.
So, Mr Kingdon, have fun with your shiny facade. Just make sure to never scratch the surface, you might be in for a really bad surprise.
On 11.22.08 Eris said:
Have to agree with Daniel, judged by their actions Linden Lab are either clueless or untrustworthy and quite possibly both.
“That’s how we arrived at the pricing amendment – through great input from Residents.”
It’s statements like that which sum-up LL for me. They try to spin it as a positive “we’re listening” thing but all it really reveals is how incredibly naïve they are. They “analyzed it over and over” and yet STILL went ahead with that infamous blog-post. It’s not that I think the new prices are wrong – it’s that these should have been the prices they launched the new OS sims with in the first place. They truly seem to have no business sense AT ALL and without that SL will simply fail.
Everyone I know in SL still loves the idea of virtual worlds but is just waiting for something better than Second Life to come along so they can leave. LL have trampled all over most of the trust and loyalty they’d built up over the past few years and that’s very depressing.
You asked once before in a post to know more about what the roadmap for LL and SL was, and obviously M was focused on responding. I was pleased to see as substantive a set of responses as any CEO would give outside a closed meeting room. I am for once impressed. This is great marketing, and as we say a great capture.
Everyone knows what goes on inside any large organization is not reflected in the marketing and public sales pitch. We must remember Mark Kingdon (formerly of Organic) is foremost a marketing man with a management accounting background. That said, I do like the fact that there is at least a stated corporate vision here that goes beyond the polar statements of GeeWizz; 3D, user content and microtransactions are the future of the internet but on the other hand, this is a hard business, we will have to play hardball now to make more profit, to grow, even survive.
I would make one suggestion to M. if he expects to sell us on “The Vision”. Stop using the term “The Consumer Market”. Maybe that works great talking inside the company, to investors and outside CEOs but not to the resident community, the content and experience creators, land owners and renters, Linden Lab’s real Partners.
[...] the mean while, Linden Lab’s CEO M. Linden gave an interview to Mr. Dusan Writer (published here). The main tone of that? ‘All happy. All good.’ A quote: “80% of our business is [...]
[...] do you see this as a benefit to other Second Life/Grid users besides enterprise? (Note: I recently interviewed Justin Bovington of Rivers Run [...]
Anything said about Teen Grid?, if not then it would be great if someone would interview M Linden about TSL and also what M plans to do in the near future for TG. Thanks!
All I’m saying is that there SHOULD be more TSL Coverage about the Teen Grid, I know teen grid residents would be really interested in the latest developments etc.
On 11.22.08 Prokofy Neva said:
It’s a cultural statement by an elite geek. He scorns Second Life as a “walled garden,” therefore it is an island. World of Warcraft shows up as contiguous space with other games like Lineage, possibly because he figures the geeks playing WoW play the other games, or played them, and form a kind of contiguous “world”.
Scorn for SL is also revealed in the “Noob” and “Sea of Culture” proximity, by which he really means “mass culture.”
Like the New Yorker map that shows E. 44th Street larger than Europe or Afghanistan, note the disproportionate size of the IRC Channel Isles and the Blogipelago, when blogs are read by a minority of Internet users.
On 11.22.08 Alberik Rotaru said:
English history-writing used to be dominated by the Whig theory of history. Everything that ever happened in English history was wonderful and the only change that ever happened was that things became even more wonderful. It’s instructive to contrast M’s description of how everything in Second Life is wonderful with Eric Reuters’ experience. Neither Second Life nor Linden Lab need constant boosting followed by constant under-performance. Both they and we need a few things to be fixed.
I look forward to seeing Blue Mars and the new CE2 version of Entropia Universe.
Building is certainly part of the Second Life attraction for many users, but how many? This article is interesting: http://www.alleyinsider.com/2008/11/why-reuters-left-second-life-and-how-linden-lab-can-fix-it
“The very things that most appeal to Second Life’s hardcore enthusiasts are either boring or creepy for most people: Spending hundreds of hours of effort to make insignificant amounts of money selling virtual clothes, experimenting with changing your gender or species, getting into random conversations with strangers from around the world, or having pseudo-nonymous sex”
Based on my experience as developer and event organizer in SL, I think building things is not very important for many users – quality content and interesting events are more important. I think this is the case for a majority of users.
I think Blue Mars (for what I have read so far, I hope to be in the beta soon), open to professional 3rd party developers but not to casual users, may become an interesting social world.
Gee, Dusan, Princess Ivory fits right in on this blog, huh? Some of these usability issues are ones you’ve brought up, yourself.
On 11.23.08 Doreen Garrigus said:
Linden Lab’s great folly with regard to open spaces has been that they expected reasonable behavior from their residents. They put out reasonable guidelines for use of land and expected the residents to adhere to the spirit of the guidelines without any kind of policing.
What they got instead was an aggressive gaming of the system. People squeezed every last prim out of their open space sims and used temp-rezzers to make up for anything they couldn’t get otherwise. Then they packed in scripts and avatars.
Not everybody did this, obviously, but a clear enough majority to be a major problem, completely unanticipated by Linden Lab.
The great advantage that M brings to the table is that he carries both the newbie wonder at this amazing second world and a businessman’s eye and experience. He, despite his newbieness, would not be caught off guard by residents’ desperation to have a place of their own making.
I would even bet that he understands it in a visceral way–I did, six months in. I had done enough exploring, seen enough of the everything that is Second Life, that I knew that I would find whatever way I could to make my space here.
It is the “whatever way I could” that Linden Lab, with its naive, software developer sensibility, completely missed. I think M gets it.
So here is my advice for M Linden: Trust the residents, love the residents, live in their delight and their passion, but put everything in writing and enforce it.
Nice post. It seems that LL have their “favorites” to talk to – after two attempts to get interviews for “SLentrepreneur Magazine” it seems we aren’t big enough. But that’s not your fault, Dusan, just a comment on how information is distributed from LL and to whom At least you got the information!
As to the Eric Reuters article, I am stunningly unimpressed. It simple expresses the views of one person who, by his own admission, became disaffected and saw things as being “as exciting as watching paint dry.” Sadly, the article was disappointing because the title was “Why Reuters Left Second Life,” and he didn’t give any reasons! All I saw were some suggestions for improvement, which have been made before a number of times by many residents who post to the LL blog.
It sounds more like Eric got tired of writing about Second Life and wanted a new job – which he got. What would be more interesting is to know WHY Reuters decided not to have someone else cover things – again, maybe they saw no point in it. We still don’t know WHY they left.
On 11.23.08 DJ Flamand said:
Eris said >LL have trampled all over most of the trust and loyalty they’d built up over the past few years and that’s very depressing.<
Agree with that. Although depressing is a “bit” of an understatement when you loose about 20000USD investment because of their decisions concerning regions in 2008.
But hey, it’s just a small loss against their earnings. So what? We are all happy still…right? We trust LL on their decisions.
Also, some of the ones I’ve brought up in JIRA
[VWR-7456] At viewer startup, do not automatically load messages received while offline. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7456
One thing I’m noticing in recent public communications from the Lab is more use of emotive words. “Delight” seems to be a big one lately, and a focus on “intuitive” design. I like that shift in verbiage and hope it’s got the ring of sincerity and not just market-speak.
Thanks again for all the terrific work you do keeping us informed about what’s happening behind the scenes, I’m really a huge fan.
Geez, Canadians popping out of the woodwork all over the place. We need a little SL meet & greet in Toronto sometime like all those weenies in New York do. (Oops, I just showed the typically Canadian inferiority complex).
On 11.25.08 JayR Cela said:
I enjoyed reading this article very much / thank you :_)
as far as my position and thoughts / I have been here in SL 3 years + / my annual subscription is due in December which I will renew for 1 more year / however at this point and with recent and past developments and disappointments / the next year I will spend in a complete holding pattern / i will not lift one more finger of help to LL / and I will continue to keep an eye on emerging alternative Virtual Reality Grids coming on-line / when the right one pops up / I will gradually migrate from SL and re-establish myself somewhere else
there is an old saying M. Linden / To Little~To Late / you folks at LL blew it. And as far as your shiny new technical Network Wizard formally from AOL *coughs* well…….
We all know what happened to them!
thanks for the great article and interview Dusan / byeee
JayR Cela :_)
On 11.25.08 Alberik Rotaru said:
M Linden’s explanation of the OS price rise simply makes no sense. A number of estate owners found that Jack Linden’s explanations, offered in private, were equally unpersuasive.
I suspect LL needs an entirely new revenue model that spreads the burden more evenly among users, perhaps through a conventional subscription model like EVE Online or WoW, but that’s another debate. Let’s accept, arguendo, that the the official explanation makes no sense because it is not the real explanation and that LL actually found itself needing new revenues because of the financial crisis.
The question then would be why did they choose to hit one segment (OS owners) with the whole of that burden, entirely exempting Mainland owners and others. I don’t have an answer yet, but it’s an interesting question.
A good interview all in all. However, it re-enforces my opinon that Mr. Kingdom is an optimist looking at Second Life through rose-colored glasses. When we compare Second Life to other computer enterprises we find it sorely lacking both financially, growth-wise, in customer satisfaction and in reputation. The system has some serious problems, yet we see virtually no mention of such in this interview– or in his other public presentations.
The line about them “carefully considering” the Open Space price hike is corporate propaganda, pure and simple. Their move has been analyzed by professionals over and over and it comes down to one thing: Linden Lab wanted more kaching out of a very viable situation. Every time I read him trying to justify that action just convinces me more of the wisdom of hunting out viable alternatives to the Linden Lab price-gouging monopoly.
A great article. M. Linden’s corporate-line responses were expected. End result: nothing all that informative. Company man, no doubt about it.
I’m sorry but the way he glazes over the openspace issue impresses me not. There is no high point to this, residents are getting shafted. There was absolutely no creativity in their policy or the so called changes, it was all shaft the resident. This won’t be forgotten in a hurry.
Actions speak louder than words, Linden Lab have a hell of a lot of actions to engage in. Trust has been eroded and it’s a deep erosion.
[...] had a fascination with interfaces – not just graphical interfaces, how to make them more intuitive, but also the devices that we use. I’m increasingly convinced that there are two significant [...]
[...] Lab is in communication over-drive it seems. Mark Kingdon’s recent interview, Ginsu talking about where the technology is headed, and Tom Hale asking Second Life residents to [...]
The Livelyzens (Lively users) are coming together to appeal to Google to keep Lively alive.
Lively is a great platform for interaction as well as creativity. It is easy to use, browser based, embeddable on webpages to bring a 3D experience right on your website. While Lively has been in beta and has limited capability in terms of the objects and avatars available, the Livelyzens have been able to come up with very creative ways to create art from what is available. All this in a “clean” 3D world thanks to Google’s vigilance in getting rid of rooms with inappropriate content. More than anything, Lively has become a place to make friends for life – from all over the world with wonderful people.
Please visit our website http://livelyzens.com and participate in the Lively Machinima contest we are conducting to show the creative potential of Google Lively. Please also sign our online petition http://livelyzens.com/petition.aspx
We kindly request netizens to support us in reviving a wonderful 3D world that is a kid friendly and a creative space for art and interaction amongst adults.
Looks more tiresome than using mouse though, as mouse is a small movement, enlarged to a bigger one on the screen. On format iPhone it’s (awesomeness)² but on a 23″ screen using touch screen would become fitness? (that and I would constantly flip over my drink on the desk)
On 11.28.08 Anonymus-Not said:
There is something fake about these AR stuffs. Like CNN’s fake holographic display.
Maybe the jap text mentions it but I doubt since this is one thing (actually the most important one) that a lot of these AR videos fail to mention: you DON’T actually see anything on your desk. Everything is happening on your screen.
On 11.28.08 Anonymus-Not said:
It’s because Second Life is full of noobs. Many of the creators themselves and the land barons too (see above) are noob, meaning they are just users of the technology who has just stepped inside a ‘hidden world’ and really don’t understand what they are dealing with.
They are called ‘clueless’.
On 11.28.08 Vint Falken said:
The Jap text mentions it all right. And most people will realise that the cube does not contain a hologram projector?
(They specify you need the software, cubes, sticks & webcam and you will see the results on your screen.)
On 11.28.08 kripken said:
>> So, power to the Livelyzens. Maybe instead of shuttering Lively, Google can be persuaded to sell it off: it’s a world made by its residents, after all, shouldn’t they have a say in what happens to it?
How about combining both of those thoughts: Sell it off to those residents themselves. Or maybe just charge a monthly usage fee.
But of course that won’t happen. Virtual world servers cost money, almost certainly more than the residents want to pay. So what they’re really doing is asking Google to keep footing the bill.
Perhaps the Livelyzens can check out Just Leap In, at http://www.justleapin.com. To me it seemed a lot like Lively, but better looking. Actual Lively users may disagree, though..
On 11.29.08 John said:
Second inventory can’t track an avatar’s position unless they actually respond to the IM. So don’t buy it for this reason.
Absolutely, a year ago the Mercedes announcement would have taken place in Second Life, but the simple fact of the matter is that today Second Life is almost an impossible sell for a brand marketer.
A fair share of the exposure SL now gets outside the community is negative to the point of mocking – witness the recent case of the British couple who met in SL and then got divorced. It just lacks credibility (even though there’s also an appreciation that virtual worlds per se have potential)
For what it’s worth I think Linden Labs has a golden opportunity to capitalise on the economic downturn and people staying indoors, and could do worse than to actually be up-front about a big draw that virtual worlds have – a place to escape the ‘desert of the real’ and be who or what you’ve always wanted to be (I posted about this almost a year ago: http://bit.ly/5AXk(
@Vint: “Can’t we just send them an invitation to SL?”
Oh my Lord no! Do we really want “those people” flooding our land and taking our camping jobs? I’ve been to Lively and I’ve seen “their type.” Why, they even LOOK odd, with their pointy heads and skinny bodies. They just don’t look normal.
And will they bring any money or good with them? No! Lively had none of these so all they will do is gobble up our freebies, beg for Lindens, and harass our womenfolk.
It’s time to take a stand against these foreigners looking to change the very fabric of our society with their “strange beliefs” and “bizarre practices. Why, they don’t even know how to fly!
I, for one, say “No!” to the wholesale dilution of our virtual purity. I say “No!” to the excessive burden on our already fragile economy. And I say “No!” to End of Civilization As We Know It!!
“… after all, shouldn’t they have a say in what happens to it?”
Do we have in SL?
(ok, at least we might have OpenSim but that might not replace SL completely. And that’s maybe also not just in case of a shutdown but in general in the day to day operations and governance)
Google is also an open source contributor.. why not contribue Lively?
[...] the ante further with his promise to focus on the “consumer experience” noting as he did recently that “80% of our investment and focus is on our core platform and our core consumer user. We [...]
[...] will allow easier integration of plug & play features and tools (very similar to Rheta’s winning UI entry, above). Currently, the SL viewer runs off of code that’s a big amorphous mess. By modularizing the [...]
The Lindens are long overdue for delivering something — anything. When was the last time they made a significant announcement that wasn’t about playing musical chairs in the executive cafeteria?
Honestly, as resident I don’t care who is new sitting there. It’s nice they introduced the new stuff member on the blog, but that’s it. But this is the same as M’s speech. It’s not even a promise to the residents, it’s an advertisement for people who might bring money.
When any of you or me or any other resident needed a promise for joy in SL? We’ll make and find joy, but don’t take our land away and make servers run smoothly.
Anyone remember the last time we tried to log on and got the “We’re Busy Fixing Stuff” image?
I’m as self centered and demanding of instant gratification as any other resident, I suppose. But every once in a while I get a bit of joy from pondering the complexity of the enterprise and the fact that one more day has dawned and SL hasn’t crashed into a pile of smoldering rubble.
On 12.03.08 Daniel Regenbogen said:
I’m with dandellion here, more PR from the Lab instead of some hard facts and words we could count on. A couple of days ago I told you in chat that I’m watching the blog for new staff additions – waiting mostly for the introduction of “DamageControl Linden”. I don’t think this one here is it.
What is needed are some goodies for the residents, goodies that come into effect quickly, better immediatly – not again promisses for a bright future sometimes in the middle of next year. Some more advantages for premium users. Upping prims to lets say 20,000 per region. LL has to GIVE something instead of just taking and taking more again and again. And not something mystic, not some background gimmick or shiny display, but something that each and everyone can really feel and count and take advantage from himself. And as I said, it has to happen quickly. The UK was able to drop the VAT by 2.5 percent within 2 weeks, to fight the effects of the economic crises right NOW when they happen, not sometimes next year when even more damage is done. LL should be able to give something right NOW, too, to show the residents that they really are as appreciated as all the hot air comming from M’s mouth claims.
I think you over simplify not only Howard Look’s credentials, but make a broad sweeping judgement of how movies are made (not to mention the added complexity of computer-animated movies.)
I dare say there was never a single camera necessarily used in the conventional sense on WALL-E, or Ratatouille, so then who is the director?
Look has a long running experience in managing and working on cutting edge design teams, and even if you don’t want to give credit to the Linden’s in this fabulous free agent pick-up, believe me, you should.
Nicolo Luminos
On 12.03.08 Mm said:
I think you’re reading too much into the quote about modularization. I’m pretty sure it refers only to the UI widgets. The UI is in the process of being converted to XML definitions. The functions that those widgets can perform is still hardcoded. So you’ll be able to rearrange the deck chairs, but you won’t be able to make the freighter look like a clipper ship. And working with the XML code is probably as hard as working with the C++ code. Have a look at it in the skins/*/xui/*/ directory. It surely makes internationalization easier, but building the panel you show above would still require an expert.
On 12.03.08 What the? said:
He recently left Pixar? (you must ask yourself why anyone would leave Pixar to go to Linden Research)
He was part of the Tivo team? (if that UI is indicative of what this guy has in mind – pffft!)
A SGI guy from way way back.
SGI = Failure!
M Linden and his “cheers” is just more of the same BS we’ve come to expect from these clowns. M – want some advice? Fix your organisation, sort out your Goverance Team and whilst your at it – pull your head out of your ass with regard to this commercialism speak you put out on the 2nd Life blog!
On 12.03.08 Aimee Trescothick said:
Well, now they’ve found the Look, they just need to find the Feel!
Obvious pun, but someone had to make it
On 12.03.08 tucker Quandry said:
Joy to the world. Nice screw job on the OpenSim. Great good ole boy network being created.
Switch to OPenSim, and really be on the cutting edge for less the cost…like free..free is good.
On 12.03.08 tucker Quandry said:
I meant nice screw job on the Open Space islands. Not OpenSim. OpenSim is free, and how does 45,000 prims sound and still great performance.
[...] be easily imported into Second Life or OpenSim. Not that they aren’t already – I’ve blogged previously about importing real world models and cityscapes into Second Life, but I wonder if we’re just [...]
On 12.04.08 Harke said:
remember when the blog was used to communicate to the residents? when it had updates and new features and apologies and relevance to the residents? now, it’s introducing, X Linden or “Manager Soandso” head of Nothing Particularly Exciting Phase II…
On 12.04.08 Anonymous said:
Zyngo needs to be shut down. I was reading elsewhere somebody’s rants and raves about how they have been employing a scripter in SL to alter the scripts in thier machines, and force people to lose more. They went on to say that thier freeplay machines are untouched to get people thinking zyngo pays out alot and thier higher cost machines are all scripted up. they even explained how to do it.
There are people in SL telling lies about “algorythms and Hot/cold zones” (yes thats right)
to rake people in by the crowd full to play his machines, even though none of these facts are true.
Even the creator of zyngo knows this is bullshit.
The following is a public statement made by zyngo creator, Aargle Zymurgy, on Friday November 7 2008 regarding zyngo scores.
One Zyngo owner is making claims that Zyngo scores are dynamic. That is, they adjust gameplay according to the score set. This claim is a lie, and is being used to fraudulantly advertise his club. Gameplay, and any figures related to generation of numbers, devils, angels, jokers, etc. are out of ALL owners controls. Setting a score won’t make any difference.
Unquote.
The ultimate truth, zyngo is the biggest bunch of exploit shit that exists out there.
The only people making money with zyngo are the ones that have endless supplies of machines, and sell them to noobs for very close to full price.
zyngo is the greatest rip off in the history of sl.
Well I am willing to stick it out for one more year / see what happens in Linden Land / however I have all ready established an account on OSGrid / i guess i will float back and forth between the 2 and possibly 4 different virtual worlds over the course of the next 12 months / and make a decision then
Cool talk – it was worth sitting through all 28 minutes since even the Q&A part in the second half brought up interesting points and reflection.
I am interested in how to describe the “juice” that gives SL interaction a more compelling experience than other computer-based interaction, and he touched on this best, I think, when he compared the typical mode of moving through information on the web – his example being shopping on Amazon where thousands of others are also simultaneously shopping but you can’t just turn to them and ask someone in the same area as you their opinion. Thus, the point being made is that humans are inherently social beings and a virtual world feed this part of ourselves that is otherwise missing or less actionable in the other hypertext-based web of the internet.
At the end, there was a question about a statement “we may come to prefer our digital selves” and the recoil that people have at such a “frightening disruption” at the kinds of change virtual worlds will likely bring, but the genie is out of the bottle now, that disruptive change is inevitable now, and we are in for an amazing ride.
Naw, this is easy, the kits are out there, I’ve put up vids on Seesmic and YouTube. Most Augmented Reality work is around 5ish years old and starting to emerge more and more. Watch the mobile space in particular + various flash things like papervision. This will be one of the blindside technologies (I hope) that will disrupt the heck out of those that cling to 3D -so- passionately as The Absolute.
On 12.05.08 Miki Gymnast said:
- Mobile phone to SL text messages
- Mobile phone to SL realtime chat
- Mobile phone to SL photo and video
- SL visitorstatistics and -tracking via SQL to Mobile Phone and back
- Power Point via flickr to SL Prim
- RSS feeds to SL public displays
- Room heating control/Coffee maker/… to SL and back
…
… all these (and also much more complex) applications have been already realized in 2006 and before… most of them are available as free code… its funny to see that some “innovators” use these low-level apps still for promotion…
Miki: Agreed. I think the interesting challenge for content developers and innovators is to look at new ways to aggregate and package those innovations for different audiences. Some are innovations that end up “stuck” in academic work, others are posted to SLExchange (or whatever it’s called now), others maybe end up as a youTube video.
I suppose some people are better at innovation and creating technology than packaging and selling it. Personally, I envy the people who make the cool stuff because I sure can’t! (Well, aside from an occasional rezzed prim). But what I don’t envy is the frustration in finding the best ways to package, promote, and sell those innovations to the right people at the right time.
I’m not saying that they should, necessarily. Good ideas have a way of finding their home. But what strikes me about where the Grid is at right now is that there are few “forums” in which specific applications can be combined, or put in a basket say, through distribution channels that can reach folks with the ability to invest in their use and continued development.
I’m really trying not to be overly broad. But I think we’ll see the emergence of more “aggregators” like Rivers Run Red who take innovations, build new ones, and package them all up for enterprise or brand or educational use.
I’m not claiming that Mobile Ripple is some breakthrough on its own…I don’t know enough about it frankly and as you point out I’ve seen other other mobile>>>SL apps as well. (Although the only thing I can remember where it posts simultaneously to a Web site and an in world artefact are the twitter fountains). But what strikes me about it is that it points to a new wave of opportunity that may be emerging – new channels through which content creators can see their innovations added to “packages” of tools and content sold to different audiences.
Good points Eric. In fact, the first example above DOES use Papervision which is mainly why I posted it – first use of PPV I’ve seen like that (I’m a huge fan of Papervision).
Point us in the direction of the videos you’ve posted if you have the chance.
[...] Doug Thompson at Dusan Writer’s Metaverse discusses Rivers Run Red’s Immersive Workspaces application and their latest addition of a mobile connection. Of interest is that it combines the virtual world (on a private grid using Second Life’s technology), web applications and mobile technology for collaboration and data visualization. [...]
On 12.05.08 JohnnyWishbone said:
I’m a little disapointed with them touting that 76,000 number. Half of that number consists of bots. When are they going to fix the bot problem?
Doug, you raise a good point about packaging technologies, whether for one world or cross-world commerce. Clearly there’s a huge opportunity for some kind of 3D mashup framework that would allow you to construct a complex scripted offering from components that you have purchased or built. Something like a 3D version of Microsoft Popfly or Yahoo Pipes that allows you to script information flows between objects, invoke their methods, etc.
In order for this tool to be really useful in a combined Second Life / Opensim / realXtend context, the scripting engine should be outside of the platforms and include features that address the issues of cross-world commerce & communication.
[...] try to make the buildings usable, where people actually inhabit them.’’ Which brings to mind an old discussion I had with Prokofy over reflexive architecture. I was reminded at the time that for most of us, [...]
[...] Landscapes I continue to carry with me a comment that Justin Bovington made when talking about Immersive Workspaces and what he sees as part of the future enterprise use of [...]
Wondering if we are seeing a new trend here.
Lately Two major news sites (Forbes and now NYT) has reported about Second Life in a serious and sober manner.
It was nice to see such a positive article about SL for once. There are so many good things to write about in terms of how SL is being used in interesting, creative ways.
There’s a free First-Person-Shooter available for iPhone. It’s called called “Cube”. It’s in the app store. It might give you an idea of what the iPhone hardware is capable of.
[...] I’ve written at length about how I believe that virtual worlds are symbols, working landscapes of new concepts of sociality, culture, and ideas. How they may represent a new Renaissance. [...]
I don’t think anyone doubts what the current iphone can do. But to run any kind of worthy SL client would suck the battery down in 5 minutes flat. You’d have the worst of both worlds – a need for constant 3g or wi-fi data sucking, “push me up against the wall and take my lunch money” cpu and gpu use due to the graphic requirements, etc.
I have an ipod touch and I can’t imagine getting more than a 1/2 hour use out of it trying to run any kind of such 3d VW client application. It would be great. But the horrific battery life in the face of harsh performance requirements is also part of what the iphone/ipod touch is capable of, Adz.
Wow. This is really well-written. You have put a lot of thought into this and that comes through very clearly. Have you gone over to Amazon.com and posted it in the user reviews? You really should.
I find Malcolm Gladwell’s works to be fun to flip around and read random sections, rather than read straight through from start to finish (that right there makes it a type of Web 2.0 activity – viral reading. It spawns other thoughts, and I go chasing after information in other places. Things that never occurred to me to hunt down until I read it in something like one of Gladwell’s books) It’s always interesting to see where I end up. Overextended in the Web 2.0 world, usually, and far far from where I started in Gladwell’s book! I take it all with a grain of salt, and find it immensely entertaining.
Also, another way to save that $27.99 and feel good about doing it is to support your local library. Go check the book out, and return it when are are finished! All for free. Aren’t libraries grand?!
I think I’ll just stick with my old Clarus shirt, personally. ^_^ (Wish they still made them, but poor Clarus was retired around the time OS X emerged)
Yeah, I find Gladwell just way too prescriptive and not genuinely descriptive as he sees patterns where they don’t always exist, and makes everyone else then join in that game.
On 12.08.08 Prokofy said:
You’re going to feel stupid if this takes off, Dusan, and it just might.
[...] if you haven’t read Halting State, read it. I probably should have added it to my top 5 book list, because it does one of the best jobs in print of describing a world in which the full metaverse [...]
I think this vision of the 3d internet is very interesting, it partially removes the issue of avatarisation and immersion ( which so much of the mainstream seem to find problematic ). The thing I would love to see is a collision of the remote virtual and the local virtual – ie remote avatars and objects mixed up with that information overlay over real physical objects and people.
The future is now…thanks for the post, I can’t wait until the first SocialSense solutions are ready and available in shops. Regarding Halting State: have you read Rainbow’s End by Vernor Vinge?
It’s a must read for you (I own 4 of your top 5 books ). Vinge created a sci-fi thriller of cultural change that literally lives amongst the technologies that are emerging now: wearables like SocialSense, Augmented/Mixed Reality, Web3.D, Web2.0, WIKI, MMORPGs, Artifial Intelligence, QR-Codes, theme parks, longivity, human-machine interfaces, Second Life’s creation tools, Creative Commons licensing, genetic engineering…but you don’t read about tech, the book is all about the generation conflict and how these new technologies alter everything we do, psychologically and socially.
On 12.08.08 Dizzy Banjo said:
This : http://www.joystickjunkies.com/ is my favourite place for geek related clothing. I really do love walking into meetings with boring suit people wearing this stuff
@ Dizzy – hey! That was you? I was the guy in a suit.
@ Gaby – yes, I did read it. But…well, it was so horribly written I didn’t add it to the list, but yes, it covered the intellectual/peer-into-the-future ground very well, and provocatively. If only he had a better editor. Or was a real writer. HAHA. Sorry, feeling snarky, it’s Monday.
On 12.09.08 Two Worlds said:
Yeah, what kind of idiot would want to virtually shop in a virtual mall, especially badly designed, buggy ones, that are only populated by statues and stand-ins for people?
Oh. Yeah.
On 12.09.08 Two Worlds said:
“(play) to the strengths of each device and objects around us to their own core strengths.”
I have no idea what that means. It’s in English, yet the words are indeciperable, save for a lot of vague-sounding buzzwords.
So, in other words, sounds about right for Rivers Run Red.
On 12.09.08 Two Worlds said:
Yeah, I know what you mean, I hate those bandwagon-jumpers and also-rans who rake in profits and faux-PR from book sales in the midst of some dumb hype *cough*JAMES WAGNER AU*cough*
I’d also recommend the animé Denno-Coil, as it paints a rather realistic Augmented Reality near-future. (its set around 2025ish)
Specifically with heads-up-display style glass’s as depicted here. The first epp has the lovely title (losely translated) as “The Children Of the Glass’s”
Denno Coil is fun in its own right too.
On 12.09.08 Two Worlds said:
Saying that Philip Rosedale is a model CEO is kinda like saying the American auto industy is the picture of economic health.
[...] Immersive Workspaces application, and it gives a nice overview of the application itself. In my recent interview with Justin Bovington, we touched on its business use cases for the application, discussed the fact [...]
[...] didn’t comment on the recently launched Mobile Ripple application, which allows posting text (and in the future video and audio) notes to the Immersive Workspace [...]
Dusan, I read your longass rip on Gladwell and was infected with that taint when stuck today in an airport by coincidence with my boss, who was also on travel, proudly pulls out a hardcover of Outliers and I tried not to Blink but I reached a certain Tipping Point… and asked him if the book store where he got his copy had a return policy. He didn’t get it. I said, “well, i understand it is *even more* anecdotal that his previous attempts” and he said, “Ah, goooooood.” (he lost big esteem points, thinking that he is working as a manager of scientists and doesn’t know the word “anecdotal” nor does he try to let on.
I tried to swear off being passive-aggressive, but it seems this post of yours is truly baiting people to launch in a rip on philly in style dusanesque ala gladwell. Still, I try to resist the bait.
There are a dozen reasons for that group to be recognizing mr. rosedale, none of which require him to actually be a good CEO. So the first logical reason I can say is that they are recognizing some other aspect of his accomplishments other than CEOing.
While I am just as capable as anyone else to be a backseat driver to SL, I also have to admit I haven’t taken an idea and surfed it in RL as well as Philip (or Malcolm, for that matter).
So, what makes him good, is by some freak chance he had an idea and by programming and organizing the efforts and funding of others and perhaps also a matter of timing, he made it into something that is a global phenomenon.
It could be he is now, business-wise, doing a Jimmy Dean off a silicon valley deadman’s curve, but to this point, I hope you can admit, he’s accomplished a lot. Face it, in the Web 3.x VC game, the time is coming when his niche becomes a google or microsoft or gets bought by one.
The difference between sailing toward a fantasy island and sailing to avoid the rocks are so different that one may be a master at one and a failure at the other while the whole time we, watching from our SL beaches, may have not known that there was a difference in his tack.
On 12.10.08 Two Worlds said:
“So, what makes him good, is by some freak chance he had an idea and by programming and organizing the efforts and funding of others and perhaps also a matter of timing, he made it into something that is a global phenomenon. ”
Fair enough, Pais, but part of Philip Linden’s job was to be as effective of an administrator and governor as he was creator and facilitator. Even during Second Life’s salad days Philip’s gained a reputation for being the exact opposite–one big tin ear to the wishes of the userbase. Part of maintaining an MMO, metaverse, virtual world, or whatever the heck you want to call it, is demonstrating that you’re an effective listener to the “unwashed masses”, and that you’re willing to put the good ideas in action. There’s a huge precedent of this with the successes, or lack thereof, of many other MMOs–Everquest, World of Warcraft, EVE Online, etc. If those nerds are gonna invest their time sitting down in mom’s basement and using you’re product, you want to make sure they feel they’re being taken care of.
That’s the “legacy” that the current Linden staff are continuing, except this time the magic’s gone, and the novelty’s wore off, and nostalgia for the good ol’ days has been replaced by an abiding resentment for the many, many tin ears of the Lindens.
On 12.10.08 Two Worlds said:
Can’t any of this be done infinitely more effeciently and without any of the “metaverse” bells and whistles, with most of the current “virtual meeting”-type software that’s out there?
I don’t think most businesses that have a “virtual conferencing” need that needs to be filled will choose this product over others because it takes place over the “metaverse” or “virtual world”. They just want something that does the job.
On 12.10.08 radar said:
Ok, worse than not cloning it, they’ve killed off the original.
What happened? Why is LL disposing of one of the few who seems to be really good at working with the community and getting stuff done?
On 12.10.08 Alberik Rotaru said:
With the best will in the world, I just don’t know that Second Life can support the levels of information display needed to make conferencing work. Notecards are not quite state of the art when it comes to textual information and the graphics engine does not churn out images with the resolution or speed that a business conference would require. It is just possible that there is some extraordinary implementation of Second Life running behind the firewall, but it is hard to come up with a business case for running heaven that side of the firewall and hell this side.
On 12.10.08 Eris said:
It’s inevitable that Linden Lab have to scale their solution to fit the technology they have, rather than to fit the needs of business, but it’s also their Achilles heel.
Two Worlds is right, none of this is compelling and little of it couldn’t be done outside SL. There could be really compelling reasons for business to implement virtual worlds – imagine hosting an annual shareholders meeting in a virtual environment. It would be open to all your shareholders irrespective of geography with no expensive or inconvenient travel and could allow real interaction – but of course SL can’t deliver that because it can’t cope with more than 40 avatars in one place at one time.
Turning SL, even partitioned annexes, into little more than virtual conference rooms is really a bit sad and desperate. Does the default version come with acrylic carpets and fluorescent lighting too?
I would love to see the conversation around enterprise adoption of virtual worlds shift away from expensive and isolating ‘corporate conferencing’ solutions, and instead emphasize features of virtual environments that aren’t already done better by existing conferencing applications, most of which you won’t find in an Immersive Workspace.
For new users, the hook most often sets when they realize they can meet, network and share their creations with people from anywhere in the world; especially when those people come from other professions, other organizations – even other countries. That’s what makes SL so powerful and liberating. Sure, there’s a learning curve – but those are the kinds of benefits that outweigh the challenges, and keep you coming back for more. I just don’t think you’ll achieve as many ‘aha!’ moments while watching powerpoints with co-workers inside a prefab corporate headquarters on an isolated private corporate sim, even if you can access it from the web, or use your outlook calender to schedule meetings, or whatever.
I think it should be made clear, for organizations who don’t know any better, that you don’t need the keys to an expensive Immersive Workspace to enjoy everything Second Life is already good for, because all of those things are free. The power of Second Life – even for enterprise, believe it or not – will always live on the regular grid. Once you get enough employees on-board who really ‘get it’ and if, for whatever reason, they start to feel like Second Life is useful for discussing trade secrets and private corporate information, then its time to invest in an Immersive Workspace (or, a free opensim…), but be careful not to put the cart before the horse.
It’s been a long time since he *was* a CEO – and he seemed glad to be quit of it. Did I miss something?
On 12.12.08 radar said:
It really irritates me when people wait this long before filing suit if they think their IP is being violated/stolen/whatever.
One first thought is that LL might be better prepared to handle any legal claims, but you have to wonder about things like OpenSim. First off, who do you sue, and then if you DO sue them, how can they afford to defend themselves?
I mostly hate suits like this because any reasonable human, or even a total idiot for that matter, can see that systems for “Enabling Users to Interact in a Virtual Space” are such a broad freaking concept that’s so obvious in nature that someone is bound to come up with an implementation of it, and that in fact a LOT of someones are bound to.
Patenting a fundamentally obvious concept like “letting people interact in a virtual space” is just absurd, if in fact they have such a patent that can be enforced against things like SL and other VW’s.
There is so much prior art for this, it will be impossible for them to enforce this. Just look at the long running MUDs and BBS software back in the dial-up era.
It’s okay, Al Gore tried to patent the Internet.
And does anyone remember CyberTown? Bet that beats out these goofs.
On 12.12.08 Just Some Guy said:
Recoculous. Sadly money is bound to be wasted on this. And time, too.
Wouldn’t this just as likely extend to (ex:) WoW? But fat chance taking on /that/ lot, so no surprise they’d target the lower hanging fruit.
On 12.12.08 david crespo said:
Keystone,
Nice idea, but with the amount of porn and filth in the public areas of Second Life, corporates are not going to be happy unleashing this on their employees. HR issues and litigation!
Also you’re being naive, corporations are interested in these spaces for their own employees.
Creating an employee virtual network is of real benefit to today’s organizations. Virtual worlds give them something more than is offered by conference calls, 2D file sharing and the horror of video conference calls. I’m surprised you can’t see this? Surely this is why you’re advocating Second Life in the first place?
Mark Kingdom has set the stall out on this issue, we’re going to have Consumer Worlds, Corporate Worlds and Education Worlds. You’re still thinking Second Life, we’re moving beyond that.
Also, the nature of business is discussion, there is a real need for security and encryption. Something, as you know, is lacking on the consumer version of Second Life.
I do though think corporates will miss out if they don’t engage with the residents of Second Life.
Therefore, why not do both, have a secure place for business, also if you want to engage, open a public sim.
This will mean you can have the best of both worlds.
On 12.12.08 Just Some Guy said:
As much as I know the market needs to explore this, and there are probably some sincerely interested in it, I believe the whole ‘workspaces’ (in its current incarnation) concept is an utter red herring.
By trying to replicate the weakest parts of the Real World workspace, these early (mis-) interpretations of what ‘work in the metaverse’ are discarding (without a second thought) the unique advantages of the virtual world.
The result, of course, is something like a car retrofitted for marine use – even if it works…you’re left wondering “why”.
Which finally ends up as “so what?”
But it’s still early…there is much much more to come, friends.
On 12.12.08 sacha magne said:
fortunatly there are some european level laws that protect companies for thoses “late” claims.
Europe rules Sacha. Best patent laws, best identity laws, best IP laws. Well, as far as you describe it anyways, I frankly don’t know enough about it. But how many virtual world platforms have been developed and are hosted in Europe – the issue here isn’t what’s happening in Europe, the issue is that most of the VW development (aside from the Asian worlds, which often seem like a massive beast of their own with woefully little cross-over) doesn’t HAPPEN in Europe, it happens in the US, or Australia maybe (I’m thinking Mycosym). If the patent lawyers start their path to destruction, with all the litigation costs, back room license deals, out-of-court settlement – I mean really, what a mess.
I’m sure it would be useful if we all lived in the Eden that is Europe, but for whatever reason that Eden doesn’t seem to me like the site of innovation, although sure, there’s peripheral examples. I can’t help wondering whether there isn’t a connection there somewhere – whether innovation doesn’t flow to where innovations are protected in different ways. The problem in the US is that like copyright protection, it has tilted for far too long in the direction of corporations and their interests over a) innovation and b) the rights of individuals to generate ideas without needing a team of lawyers to check that “blog commenting” hasn’t been patented.
On 12.12.08 david crespo said:
Just some guy,
Yes, like a letter is better than email? Why bother with email, hell I can write it on paper and give it to you. While we’re at it, why don’t we just go back to rotary telephones, get rid of all our cellphones?
Virtual Worlds, are part of our world now. This is not a “so what?” moment, the uses and possibilities are endless. They do though need some basic functionality, like document sharing and conference facilities. This give companies a good starting point.
On 12.12.08 Piers Van Ghalen said:
Keystone,
You mean shift the spot light back to your Second Life development company, Crescendo Design company? Or back to your architecture project? So you can offer companies your own expensive solutions, in other words so you can build them a house or office in Second Life? This is surely what this is all about, you’re unhappy that the Linden Lab have created this product?
We have a saying in Holland, the seagull follows the fisherman looking to steal his food.
We’re looking forward to this solution. We have already pitched this in to our clients. Seems a shame you feel the need to continually bash it in the blogs. It slaps of jealousy.
On 12.12.08 Keystone Bouchard said:
@ david crespo
Your suggestion that ‘corporates’ will be able to ‘unleash’ Second Life on their employees is a whole lot more naive than suggesting that they gain a better understanding of the full spectrum Second Life offers before investing in an Immsersive Workspace that most employees will ignore. The only success stories I hear start with a few evangelists who build internal support by proving value over time. The technology is so young, and the learning curve so steep (as cited by the Standard) that SL isn’t something that can just be handed down from above as a matter of corporate deployment. It sets up failed expectations, and eventually another reason for people (and the media) to reject SL. I would much rather focus on the truly unique features SL is already good at.
Game-changing and unprecedented innovation lies at every turn in SL, yet the best we can do is frame it as a better conferencing tool?
Its like going to the jungle and being amazed by its complex diversity and splendor, then isolating one plant in a vacuum-sealed petri dish and taking it back to the office. Granting one company the rights to call that petri-dish ‘jungle’ and sell private access to it for top dollar is what concerns me.
This is terrible. Who are these guys? I do a lot of work in virtual worlds and do not have a clue who they are. Wait.. hmm, now we do, crappy PR tactic worked, but wait, I am sure to never go to or use their vw.
On 12.12.08 david crespo said:
It’s not just one company, that ONE company is Linden Lab, they surely have the right to sell their products as they see fit? They have, from what I can tell, purchased the rights to sell the product. This is not Rivers Run Red selling it, Linden Lab are selling it. The jungle is still owned by Linden Lab.
From what I understand, Linden Lab is creating an affiliate system for this solution. Surely those who are interested can now sell it? Why are you always missing this vital bit of information off your rants?
[...] to my recent posts on the launch of Immersive Workspaces (IW) by Rivers Run Red and Linden Lab (my interview with Justin, the launch of Mobile Ripple, and the Industry Standard’s review of the application). The [...]
@ Brian – seems to me that a move like this is grasping at whatever straws you can find to stay alive. As in, no one knows who worlds.com is, they can’t actually get a business going, so let’s look in the library to see what we can either fire sale off or throw to the lawyers. I’m not even sure that the end game is law suits, it might instead to be gobbled up by those folks who run around sucking up little companies with dusty patents that they can turn into revenue streams through litigation.
And yeah, Worlds.com will hardly be on anyone’s thrill list – I wonder if their clients know about this? Intriguing that they have Aerosmith as a client hahaha.
Twinity is German Based and at the Conference in London, to my surprise, there seemed to be quite a lot other German based ones. (But less ‘evolved’, flash mainly, and looking more like Google Lively than SL.)
Isn’t it possible worlds.com sees this as a way to get their name out there, under the ‘there’s no things as bad press’ motto? it definitely is the first time you’re mentioning them…
On 12.12.08 Corcosman Voom said:
Wow, I always wondered what the big picture looks like.
Hello Livelyzens,
My name is dreamer2032, and I am a ninth grader at Westwood Schools in Camilla, Georgia. I am part of the Digiteen Dream Team, which is a group of fellow students that have banded together to stop Google from deleting Lively. We love Lively! We used it to teach the seventh graders at our school about digital citizenship, and it was a huge success. They loved it! We have written blogs, made a Lively protest room, and even made a song about the reason that Google should keep Lively. Lively has done so much for our class, and we will not let it be deleted without a fight. We support you in all your attempts to save Lively. Keep Alively!
On 12.12.08 lr said:
worlds.com was in the 3dchat worlds biz since 1994.
they predate Cybertown, which was sponsored by blaxxun, who then was blacksun, whose original passport application for 3d chat i believe shipped after the original worlds.com client.
There were a few 3d chat systems that did what the patents claim from the 1994-6 period.
And while im relegated to old man of factual history for you all:).. google COMPTONS and Multimedia Patents for the enivitable outcome of this “news story”.
I saw a post already from someone suggesting the same.
Worlds.com offered the first 3d chat like world with avatars that wasnt a game per say. Theres no doubt LL copied much from them, but the broad claims made on these type of patents should have founded patent reform in 1994 after the “Multimedia” mess and claims… but that would have been asking people to know and remember history..;)
c3
On 12.12.08 Graham Mills said:
I think there is a problem for education too. A few gifted individuals can reach critical mass but the solutions for the majority at an institutional level are currently too hard to capture, package and differentiate.
For universities, the need to be seen outweighs the need to be safe but how hard is it to temporarily close an island anyway (and isn’t it Qwaq BTW)?
Thanks, Dusan. I was listening to all of the doom and gloom predictions about the economy of Second Life with great puzzlement. There’s a little dip in the numbers? Wow. Does anyone realize what’s going on out here in the real world? It’s getting scary.
But get this: since my partner was laid off at the beginning of September(luxury travel industry isn’t doing so well) our SL spending has actually increased a little.
Why is that? Well, there are fascinating things to do and see and buy in SL, and even if they cost hundreds of Lindens, that’s less than the cost of parking in Seattle—heck, it’s less than the cost of the gas to drive to Seattle and back.
So we are spending more time at home with our laptops instead of out with our credit cards, and a slight increase in spending in SL is the result. I can’t imagine we’re the only ones doing this—funny that the new concurrency records have occurred smack in the middle of a major RL economic downturn.
I wonder if everyone spending pennies an evening for entertainment in SL instead of dollars an evening in RL is mostly offsetting the economic damage done by the OpenSpace issue.
Well, obviously we’d prefer to see the numbers going up rather than declining. The losses recently wiped most of the gains through 2008 – and that doesn’t seem like a good thing.
I don’t disagree, Tateru, however in the context of the wider economy a “not so good thing” can seem like a bloody brilliant amazing thing. Having said that, I’m not all rose-colored glasses – I think the first quarter of 09 will be more telling when tiers come due and businesses and individuals need to decide whether to maintain their investments in-world. For the time being, against the backdrop of everything else, I don’t feel discouraged by flat numbers.
Adz – oops, I always try to catch that, thanks!
On 12.12.08 radar said:
I hate the name chooser tool LL has implemented. It cannot possibly be accurate to the names already chosen. You have to try and try and TRY to get the last name you want to show up on the list, and it’s really not believable.
I don’t know what they are doing, but I don’t believe it really is a working check against already registered names. A broken check, maybe. Not a working one.
Dusan, I’m somewhat inclined to sit on your side of the fence on this one. Once the non-economic cycle-driven behavior of abandoning the Open Spaces subsides, and once the vocally aggrieved souls depart Second Life for places unknown (and probably return when they learn that OpenSim is crash-tastic and even more sparsely populated than SL), I have a feeling that the SL community will just keep motoring on. It’s a resilient bunch.
One thing I’ve picked up on in conversation with other avis is the theme that SL is a place of emotional refuge. In chaotic times life these, you can’t overstate the value of having a “safe place” like SL. People will pay for that.
The sky isn’t falling on the SL economy. If the Lab can keep the competitors at bay, it should be able to weather this storm. Of course, they would have to cut back on the goofball policy pronouncements that put the residents’ knickers in a knot. Not sure that’s possible.
[...] – Warcraft didn’t make sense, after all, too hard to bring in custom content. We already posted on the Vancouver Police Department using SL as a recruitment mechanism, and we’re pretty sure [...]
On 12.13.08 Daniel Regenbogen said:
I have to agree with Doreen, the RL economic crisis has a good impact on things like SL. If you can’t spend lots of money anymore on expensive RL fun like going out, to the movies, travel – you turn to cheaper entertainment. And even with the ridiculous land prices, SL still is cheap entertainment, compared to other things.
On the other side you can’t just look at what was lost because of the OpenSpace debacle – you also have to look at what wasn’t gained because of it. Not only did SL lose roughly 2000 regions in november, the actual loss is bigger because SL didn’t gain the roughly 1000 new regions that would have been added without that debacle.
On 12.13.08 Eris said:
In other news…
Apple are busy patenting ideas for a 3D (or ‘multi-dimensional’) user interface. For what purpose (other than patent-squatting) it is not yet clear…
Ewwww. I was a girl gamer, when I was very young. It was always just me and a pack of boys. The dynamic shown in that video is both familiar to me and very, very creepy. Not a chance I would ever go back to that again.
On 12.14.08 Tabliopa Underwood said:
I was reading my local newspaper on Saturday and they have a memorable quotes of the week in it. And one quote attributed to an anonymous moenymarket guy was “the slightly down is the new up”. It made me smile because with all the RL bad news lately at least someone can still find time to try and brighten their day. And thinking about what you have written here and what that other guy said, then while things maybe not to good in SL right now for everyone there is a little bit bright still in SL. So thats good I think.
Clearly, Blue Mars’ developers do not want the .edu community in-world.
User-created content is essential to the best builds I’ve seen in SL. I’d hoped that someone would develop an SL-alt that paired user content with stability, cross-platform support, and system reqs that allow easy access from student laptops.
Reckon I’ll still wait and keep investing time and energy in SL, warts and all.
On 12.14.08 Dizzy Banjo said:
It’s weird you posted those two vids Dusan as I’m currently studying both intensely. The other day I played a jazzy guitar version of The Rainbow Connection at a gig at the Toys for Tots benefit at Music Academy in Second Life. Whilst immediately making me become a 5 year old kid, Paul Williams writing in that song somehow captures the essence of dreaming and creating something that may well be ahead of its time socially. The Linden video captures an optimism and sense of togetherness and hope which I have missed in Second Life recently. Sometimes it feels like we need that unity in order to get to the other side of this rainbow.
Dizzy –
..that ‘missing’ optimism and sense of togetherness is alive and well but it has been napping lately
***DING DING !! * wake up time !!****
JenzZa
[...] OK, I think I have it in for this guy. Seriously. I need help. A friend brought a copy of Outliers to dinner last night. I mean….what a way to get the conversation off to a rocking start. [...]
Malcolm Gladwell might be reading from the Captain Obvious playbook – but his success so far seems to be based on the fact that what might be patently obvious to you or I isn’t, apparently, obvious at all to the people who have been buying his books.
I can’t help but yawn through a lot of it, but Captain Obvious needs to speak up – because for a lot of people, the obvious really just isn’t.
That said, I don’t spend money on his books myself.
Oh, Dusan. I’m so sorry. It is hard to have a popular writer—and that’s all that Gladwell actually is—spouting nonsense that gets under your skin, all out in the public sphere all the time.
The one that sets me off is John Grey–every time the man opens his mouth I want to slap him.
On 12.15.08 lr said:
self help pap for suits in times of failure.
obviously!:)
On 12.16.08 IYan Writer said:
As a Gladwell fan for years, I’ve been very skeptical about this review of yours, but I’ve waited until Amazon shipped my copy of the book, so I could check for myself. It arrived yesterday and I wolfed it down in one sitting.
here’s what his ENTIRE new book is about:
Depending on when and where you were born, you might have a better chance at being successful.
Wow, did you miss the point.
Outliers is about the fabled “American dream” – the notion that anybody can become a success in America, as a president or as a millionaire. The book debunks this notion and tries to force USA (and the rest of the world) to take a realistic view of the importance of the environment and the way it’s mostly extremely hostile to success aspirants – except in certain, very rare, circumstances. As always, Gladwell tries to make us question our pre-conceptions – and, as always, he succeeds.
And, yes, the book is not about the perception of success. But it was never intended to be..
Will curiously await what this new energy will stir up in the coming year…
On 12.16.08 Eris said:
Skip Intro….
On 12.16.08 Eris said:
Yup, congratulations all – sounds like a perfect fit…
On 12.16.08 princess said:
It is a fact that Flash is really cool for getting rich media content but also requires a huge loading time. That it is why, I personally do not prefer. Moreover it is not so SEO friendly solution. However Google can index Flash pages include the proper xml file. Hope they will not put a huge flash movie onto the intro page. In my opinion the size of index page must be below 100k. I am really awaiting the new site but haven’t seen a pixel of it so far.
I’m not sure that Gladwell’s cornered the market on stating the patently obvious. I’ll chime in with Tateru in y own way: “obvious” is not always to most.
I absolutely agree with you that Gladwell sets out to challenge our misconceptions. For sure, that’s what he DOES. For folks, however, who challenge their own on a continuing basis, I’d recommend catching him in the New Yorker maybe, avoiding the book and buying, say, Nudge instead.
It’s interesting because David Brooks covers this nicely in the New York Times today. He first agrees with you:
“Gladwell’s important new book, “outliers”, seems at first glance to be a description of exceptionally talented individuals. But in fact, it’s another book (by Gladwell) about deep patterns. Exceptionally successful people are not lone pioneers who created their own success, he argues. They are the lucky beneficiaries of social arrangements…
As usual, Gladwell intelligently captures a larger tendency of thought – the growing appreciation of the power of cultural patterns, social contagions, memes. His book….could lead policy makers to finally reject policies built on the assumption that people are coldly rational utility-maximizing individuals.”
(Again, read Nudge instead, it’s rooted in far better evidence and is actually ACTIONABLE).
So, sure, what Gladwell presents and argues is important to know, and understand. It debunks any myths out there about ’superstars’ who are self-made men and women.
Brooks, after giving Gladwell his due, goes on to say, however:
“I can’t help but feel that Gladwell and others who share his emphasis are getting swept away by the coolness of the new discoveries. They’ve lost sight of the point at which the influence of social forces ends and the influence of the self-initiating individual begins.
Most successful people begin with two beliefs: the future can be better than the present, and I have the power to make it so. They are often showered by good fortune, but relied at crucial moments upon achievements of individual will….
Control of attention is the ultimate individual power. People who can do that are not prisoners of the stimuli around them. They can choose from the patterns in the world and lengthen their time horizons…It leads to resilience, the ability to persevere with an idea even when all the influences in the world say it can’t be done…
If Gladwell can reduce William Shakespeare to a mere product of social forces, I’ll buy 25 more copies of “Outliers” and give them away in Times Square.”
Which…truly, is my point.
AND my point about the connection to virtual worlds and emerging technologies. We can take on Gladwell’s beliefs that the forces of these things are stimuli that are influencing us, and hope that we are in the right place and the right time. Think of it as “we will thrive or survive because the Lindens make it so.” That, really, is the Gladwell way.
Or, we can say “Regardless of the world about me, I have beliefs, I have perseverance, I have art, I have passion, I have the focus…and I will “choose from the patterns in the world and lengthen their time horizons”.
My reaction is similar to Brooks. First, if you want to examine the profound influence of the cultural contexts in which we live, there are better sources with better researched insights. Second, examining those forces while neglecting to examine the individual decisions and perseverance that comes into play IN SPITE the influences around us makes us, I feel, dangerously reliant on the external as a measure of our success and happiness, when it’s our heart that counts.
You make some excellent points Dusan. Flash loading times are certainly a concern and we are being thoughtful about how and where we use it.
Many of our residents are already logged in when they visit http://www.secondlife.com so they bypass the homepage entirely and those deeper pages will not be Flash heavy, so existing users shouldn’t be inconvenienced. The purpose of the home page is to introduce potential new users to the wonders of Second Life which cannot be expressed with a 2D static image. There is so much that we want to show people about what exists inside this wondrous world! If you imagine this as the first part of a rich and immersive new user experience based on the concepts of a wide variety of pathways (verbs), you can start to see where we might be going with the first hour experience.
This is one of many things we are working on to make the experience better for new and existing residents alike. There is more ahead. Thank you!
[...] Edit: Since this post, the Lab seems to have listened to the community and provided a screen shot of the new test home page. See it and comments here. [...]
it looks really bad! i hope they don’t go with it!
On 12.17.08 Annyka Bekkers said:
ugh. The criticisms of this design is completely predictable, and IMO, completely off the mark. Everybody is predisposed to declaring this a fail, I guess because everyone wants to be justified in saying that LL can’t do anything right and Big Spaceship doesn’t “get SL” and has no business designing the interface.
So its derivative? So what. *Every* design is derivative. Every one. Design, especially commercial design, exists within its time and echoes current trends and styles or else its not timely. Web sites are not designed for the ages. They’re designed for the here and now, and in 3 years when this looks dated and stale, they should be designing a new look. And, anyway, its a grid of images. Who owns the rights on grids?
And “Basic Rules of Design”? Are you kidding? I have a Rule of Design too. “Those who quote ‘design rules’ should never be allowed anywhere close to a design in progress”. Rules serve only one purpose: to be waved around by non-designers when they want to reject a design out of hand.
There are no “Rules of Design”. A design serves its purpose or it doesnt. THAT is the only rule that matters.
In the rush to cry “Fail”, everyone’s completely missing what this design actually does really well.
The flat black actually works very nicely, despite “rules” to the contrary, by receding to the background and focusing attention where it is supposed to be, the pictures, which look like windows into a world. There are so many possibilities and things to do in this world that they had to be arranged in a grid which is still too big for the page and has to overflow to the right and left. That’s how much stuff there is in SL.
Someone also said “Never horizontal scroll. Always vertical scroll.” Another one of those “design rules” which is just rubbish. Again, design choices have to suit the purpose and the message. For me, horizontal scrolling conveys “open”, “panoramic”, and “unconstrained”. All qualities that Second Life should be communicating. Vertical scrolling suggests sequentialness, and lots of stuff I have to read through.
And that’s without even knowing what kind of interactivity there’ll be on the live page. Who knows what clicking the menu items or the verb boxes will do? Or what’s beyond the page to the right and left?
Remember, the one and only purpose of this page design is to entice the new visitor to click deeper into the site and learn more. Now there’s no telling how well the live site will perform and if it will be annoy people away with too much Flash gimmickry. That’s a very strong possibility.
But, based solely on the layout of this static page, I say it works. If I was visiting this page for the very first time, having never heard of Second Life, I would be intrigued enough to look deeper, and I think many many other people would too. And THAT is the only measure of success that counts.
On 12.17.08 radar said:
Ok, whatever. I’ll tell you why it doesn’t work for me. It’s the HOME page. THE landing spot. Not a linked page. And your eyes don’t know where to rest. You go left, then right, looking for an edge, a boundary, and they aren’t there. Combined with the black background, it hurts my eyes to look at long enough to figure out what they are trying to say.
And did you even read Crap’s mention of the verbs they chose? Stupid. I don’t think anyone’s found those meaningful.
If you didn’t already know what SL was, this page wouldn’t help you one bit. As for the predictable criticism stuff, I was neutral on it, and in fact was hoping they’d come up with something nice and useful. I have nothing against LL, if anything I probably come down on their side of things more often than not, just because incessant whining by the residents irritates me.
THIS. SUCKS. It has nothing to do with anyone wanting anyone else to fail. They failed without our wishes.
On 12.17.08 Annyka Bekkers said:
I think the eye naturally moves to the single empty box on the page. The one that contains the main message, “Join the internet’s largest user-created blah blah blah”
On 12.17.08 Annyka Bekkers said:
“And your eyes don’t know where to rest. You go left, then right, looking for an edge, a boundary, and they aren’t there.”
That’s the whole point. There is no boundary! That’s why the thing SCROLLS to right and left!
We know it scrolls. It’s still NOT a home page design. It’s a photo album design.
It conveys no cohesive message, but many fragmented ones, and the user has no idea which one to look at first. You’re looking at it as someone who already understands SL. You’re not looking at it from the point of view of someone who needs one simple statement answer to the questions : what and why.
On 12.17.08 Georgianna Blackburn said:
What bothers me are the keywords, “dance, shop, play, learn, flirt” !!!! OMG…. that ought to destroy all credibility for business and education. Perhaps the Lindens are trying to drive business and education out of the SL Grid and into the pricey Immersive Spaces platform.
The design doesn’t matter if the first impression is that SL if a frivilous environment. Hope MY CEO doesn’t see something like this…bye bye budget!!
I’m not a huge fan of the home page… but that aside, even if they get people in… chances are a good percentage of them would end up in an (un)welcoming area and end up feeling bullied, harrassed or disgusted and will leave.
I sometimes do self imposed penance at the (un)welcome areas to help those in genuine need – and I really hate being there.
Perhaps if Linden care so much about new users, they’ll make the welcome areas a little more like the Destination Station (help people find and move on to interesting spaces). Or maybe they’ll dedicate some staff to these areas to assist.
Linden relies heavily on residents to mentor and assist which is all fine and well, but if they care about their bottom line – perhaps they want to make sure people pass go and decide to collect L$300… instead of giving up after being in an (un)welcoming area for a little too long.
The home page may be the first point … but who survives in SL seems to strongly hinge on who has contacts to help them out of the (un)welcoming area; who has the ability to search (and find somewhere that makes them want to go on) or who happens to by chance meet someone friendly and helpful.
If they’d fix these entry points, I’m quite sure they’d have a lot more people stay in SL after they’ve joined instead of giving it up as an awful experience in banality.
On 12.18.08 Isadora Fiddlesticks said:
Very well said
On 12.18.08 Luke Poplin said:
A lot of good thought there, Dusan. The thing I’m wondering about is why the SL blogosphere calls for LL to “change this” and “improve that” and then when they begin to do something they immediately start getting criticized.
It’s obvious they are laying down the cash to try to make some improvements. I’ve seen Big Spaceship’s work and even watched some of their process via lynda.com. I highly doubt this is some thrown together job. Isn’t it a little early for anyone to trashing to whole effort when it has just begun? Is there NO hope at all? Personally, when I read who was involved in this project, I was actually excited.
Busting on LL is easy…hundreds are doing it. I think the real challenge for SL bloggers would be to write about all the really good…really cool things that go on every single day.
I’m very interested in what all you guys have to say, but I have to tell you…you all collectively paint a dismal picture. Perhaps that is part of LL’s problem.
I’m not a Linden. I’m not a “fanboi”. I’m just a guy who really enjoys his SL…warts, bloggers and all.
You make an interesting point but what you seem to be critiquing here is critique itself. Which is fine. I decry negativity myself much of the time. YOU may not be a fanboi but I am, if by a fanboi you mean someone who is enamored of something in ways that may not even be particularly rational, who looks up or admires something even when it has warts, or is able to turn those warts into beauty spots.
If, in general, you take issue with the ’slant’ I give to coverage of Second Life I’d love to hear. In general I celebrate, (in small and ineffective ways maybe but regardless), the culture, residents, projects, application and tools of Second Life.
That doesn’t give me any MORE right to criticize the new home page design than someone else – everyone can. Criticism is generally considered healthy and productive if there are constructive elements to it.
I’m assuming that neither Big Spaceship nor M nor the folks at the Lab are so sensitive that their feelings will be hurt or they’ll deviate from their approach, which strikes me as quite sanely process-oriented, metric-driven, and based on some fairly significant talents.
I have written before about the improvements that the Lab has been making. I’ve written before about contributions that Residents have made to improving the platform. I’ve even put my own cash on the table to try to help facilitate improvements through the UI design contest. Again, these don’t allow me to make constructive comments any more than any one else should be allowed to, but I’m hardly one to over-react, or maybe I am and am just delusional about it.
Regardless, you’re not actually criticizing my comments, you’re criticizing, well, criticism.
I never SAID that the home page was thrown together. I never SAID that Big Spaceship did a hack job. I never said there was no hope.
I was VERY excited when M announced that an outside firm was looking at reworking the home page and the client.
And while I take issue with the design ITSELF, my issue is actually broader, which is my disappointment that this opportunity was wasted: the opportunity for us to rally around a re-articulated vision for Second Life, for us to understand how SL can be an ennobling, powerful platform as expressed in how it is presented to the potential new user.
It may be just a home page but this was a chance for M to demonstrate the big ideas driving what has been a very focused effort to improve the experience: both of new users and as a reminder to residents of why we came in the first place.
It’s not the home page that bothers me, it’s the lost opportunity to reaffirm our faith in the big ideas that drive SL and virtual worlds in general for that matter.
You can have great process, you can focus group and A/B test and have the best design firm in the world, but the effectiveness of all of that process is correlated to the strength of the strategy, mission, and vision on which it’s based.
If “immediately being criticized” and “part of LL’s problem” is passionate Residents attempting to give voice to our collective insights, then maybe it’s time to head off to Sony Home where, as far as I know, the platform owners don’t ask for it in the first place.
I hadn’t noticed the disappearance of “Your World, Your Imagination” because that really hasn’t been the spirit of the way things have been run recently.
As ugly as the blackness is, at least they’re being honest with that bit.
On 12.18.08 Luke Poplin said:
Dusan:
Well, I guess I unloaded here in your area making sweeping generalizations. I apologize for that. I didn’t mean to make you accountable for everyone. Please don’t take offense. If you already did, please accept my apology.
I just get so frustrated when I cycle through my Google Reader and hear one bash after another, when my experience with SL has been an overall great one. I see a lot of good on every level.
I know what processes I go through with my own work…the numerous meetings, IPTs, iterations, and testing. I guess I just wish we would hold off a bit until we see a bigger picture. I think calling this a wasted opportunity may be a little bit premature without more insight into the entire experiment (which we probably won’t get).
In any case, thanks for letting me throw my thoughts out there.
On 12.18.08 lr said:
Nothing new.
Except for a few MMO/VR Worlds/Game companies, almost NO VR worlds platforms/”consumer service ” companies have a CCO or even know what they are or do.
Asking for feedback on a design was asking for trouble, it’s the age old one man’s meat is another man’s poison situation.
Asking for feedback on something you’ve already decided to run with was even sillier than asking for feedback on the design in the first place.
This is a marketing exercise, if it attracts new residents then great. I’m not particularly fussed what they do but the word “create” is very much missing at the moment.
Luke I much prefer seeing positive articles too but generally my mailing lists cover education, there’s a lot of positive uses of education but it’s mainly aimed at the education market, rather than general SL users. If you see something great then shout about it
[...] not unlike Spore. And in fact, I wrote about Spore some time ago, saying: The point is to get potential users to invest in their avatars FIRST. [...]
Dusan, you shared with me your idea of Second Life as a big city a few weeks ago, a center of creativity and productivity, and I thought you made a compelling case. But this would all be more convincing to me if, using your words from the previous post, you could distill it all into a Big C Creative slogan, on the order of “Just Do It” or “Your World, Your Imagination.”
Maybe some of your readers want to take a stab. All I can think of is “That’s life in the big city,” which is what my older brother would tell me when he was stealing my candy and toys. So for me, at least, its not an uplifting slogan.
I had noticed that “Your World, Your imagination” had disappeared a while back and I remember feeling disappointed but I forgot all about it. Reading this article reminded me how important that mantra was to me, not just the text, but the spirit.
That being said I do like the idea of more pictures and more variety. Visual is good, it’s hard enough to explain SL, much better to just show it. I am not a big fan of Flash websites though, especially when I need to find something in a hurry.
Another great article Dusan I am blown away at the mindmap Jeff created and glad to have him, you and the ThinkBalm community putting real thought into virtual world applications.
[...] there’s a wider cultural shift to communities-based approaches to wellness. As much as I dislike Malcolm Gladwell, for example, his book Outliers makes the (obvious) point that successful people aren’t self [...]
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse (Canada) – ThinkBalm, the Immersive Internet and Collaborative Culture. “A while back I was invited to something called the “ThinkBalm Innovation Community” and [...]
For me, Second Life is most useful for cultivating a lot of “thin” relationships with several people, similar to online social networks in general. You can quickly get exposed and connected to lots of people around a shared interest or passion.
But for deeper connections to people, I find Second Life to be mostly unsatisfying. I’ve certainly become good friends with people that I have met through SL, but this has been spurred by offline real world interactions over time, not just in-world.
I find that when I am feeling lonely, that being in Second Life can make me feel worse, not better. YMMV.
Rikomatic – I think that’s a common experience. I often wonder whether it has to do with the richness of the interactions, or is a product of ‘geography’. Not to bring up ‘empty sim syndrome’ but one of the things I find is that the sensation of looking at the wonderful work of the artists and builders in world can also be an experience in loneliness.
I’m actually proposing, I suppose, two things: one, that virtual worlds are a platform on which you can form community, often geared towards specific tasks or functions, events, or settings. Warcraft, even, and guild raids, say. Or in-world dances, music shows, events. And second, that it can be a site of expression which helps to give us the tools for articulating our sense of self and place.
On 12.22.08 Xavier said:
What it also shows is that their ideal resident is human. This was supposed to show what SL is about? What about all the communities in SL based around non humans?
I applause LL for trying to revamp and attract punters making it easier for them to join/assimilate into the societies but they should be trying to celebrating all the aspects of SL.
*shrugs* i am still waiting for a newbie out of the box furry av… seemed it was missed when they remade the others.
On 12.22.08 Anonymus Not said:
I think the idea is great to analyze and make suggestions.
Here are some from me:
* Pop-up notifier when an avatar puts on something that makes his ARC go into red.
* Enhanced texture library -> buy a few tons of textures, quality textures at least the quality of Halflife 2 or Far Cry or Doom 3. (Esp. the first two is everywhere in SL anyway.) Encourage people using this with features like… see below.
* Color-code sims on map based on the load it would put on your machine. Maybe people will forgot the stupid 1K textures.
* Background pre-loading for simulators -> Have another option of tp-ing. You could chat/etc. for 1 more minute before this ‘new tp’-option would grey out.
* An intermittent black box would be cool too even if I know it will never happen. (A box where you and everyone who is just in the progress of tp-ing appears as an untextured silhoutte.) OK, this is fantasy.
Hi Dusan, great post! From my view, there are several ways one might approach loneliness.
First, is to choose NOT to do anything about one’s loneliness, or rather to accept it, even if momentary. Inside that acceptance it can be a cause to its ending. Or another way of putting it, is to just BE with it, which may eventually reveal the source of ‘it’. Albeit, intimately, in friendships or collectively.
Furthermore, having to find a reason for it is not necessary. To be what you aren’t is to be what you wish. In other words, to not be lonely means to do things that are a cause to others not being lonely. For it’s when we step outside ourselves we become or enter into the collective. After all we are one; essentially, our ego gets in the way of this sense. Offering up ourselves to others brings it back, the trick is to do it in such a way as to not have any expectation of its return.
Moreover, on the subject of artists, and to address your last comment on your post; You are obviously very perceptive. Maybe more than you realize, but I wholeheartedly agree with your comment
“I’m actually proposing, I suppose, two things: one, that virtual worlds are a platform on which you can form community, often geared towards specific tasks or functions, events, or settings. Warcraft, even, and guild raids, say. Or in-world dances, music shows, events. And second, that it can be a site of expression which helps to give us the tools for articulating our sense of self and place.”
To fishtail on this, and take it perhaps deeper, one can relate it to our soul. From an artists perspective, mostly unconscious, and by nature, a true expression of creativity doesn’t follow analysis of who we are or whatever. What does or is a primary cause to expressing something artistically, is almost always from the point of view of suffering. Some refer to this as “A Dark Night of the Soul” (Thomas Moore’s book “Dark Nights of the Soul: A Guide to Finding Your Way Through Life’s Ordeals) is probably my personal second best book I’ve ever read. In it he relates how even some artists choose to stay inside that suffering, whether it be loneliness or whatever. The point is, an artist wants to be recognized for his/her ability to express what we/they have felt or are feeling. It’s inside this need of recognition, where being social, and relating to others, that has the artist step out of their norm. This is all well and good, and no matter what our profession in life is, everything is a choice in this respect. Our plights in life might seem unfair, not our fault..etc., etc.. But, they happen, and can send us down deep into what feels dark, alone, even depressing or even hopeless.
What I’ve discovered, inside of Second Life, is the commonality of our ordeals in RL. This has helped me understand that I’m not alone; not to confuse this with loneliness. Even when there are many of us in SL that choose, request, disallow a relationship of RL into SL; this is fine from an artistic point of view, but is ultimately impossible. We have to function in RL, to give us the wherewithal to even be in SL. I could go on and on about this, but I don’t want my comments to take on a full post.
Anyway, again great post! I’d like someday to participate in a conversation between you, AM Radio, LightWaves, Eshi Otawara, Bettina Tizzy, Pavig Lok, Vint Falken and some others, and share our varying perspectives on this matter. In closing, I would say we do our best, creatively, when we are alone, and loneliness is only one factor that “might” be a source of that inspiration.
On 12.23.08 Gary Kohime said:
I would really be interested in knowing, for lack of better words, what the “connection of the spheres, and lines from the center point mean” Might you elaborate, please?
@Gary – I think you mean the mind map application itself? Or maybe I misunderstand. It’s not unlike a 2D mind map – start with a problem or concept (a sphere) and you can add off-shoots to that idea, connected by the lines.
Gary: What an amazing discussion that would be. You’ve mentioned people who really do capture many of those feelings through their art. I’d add Bryn Oh, her immersive works tell stories that touch on so many of these themes of loneliness, love, sociality, and what it means to be human. Of course, I also think that nearly everyone on the Grid would have something useful to add.
In the first part of your comment you’ve touched on something that I think is really critical and deserves a novel let alone a blog post. The concept of acceptance or the almost Buddhist concept of living ‘in’ loneliness in order to simply be…and second, the idea of getting out of the way of our ego, ‘give and ye shall receive’. But regardless, what’s important about it, and why artists are my heroes, is that I resist the temptation to ‘cure’ what is part of our humanity.
A few of my own touch points, since you mention Moore, include Rollo May’s the Courage to Create and Matthew Fox’s Creativity.
And finally I’ll sign off for now with a favorite poem:
We must become ignorant
Of all we’ve been taught,
And be, instead, bewildered.
Run from what’s profitable and comfortable
If you drink those liqueurs, you’ll spill
The spring waters of your real life.
Forget safety.
Live where you fear to live.
Destroy your reputation.
Be notorious.
I have tried prudent planning
Long enough, from now
On, I’ll live mad.
Very good article. Thanks but I hope you don’t mind me being a contrarian.
I must take exception with the 3D mind map. I’ve used them in ThinkBalm and Metanomics. I find them harder to use than their 2D predecessors because nodes eclipse each other and other objects in the scene. Either the mind map is stationary and one must move around to “look” at the node information, or they are moving and eclipsing – orderly but annoying. If the third dimension were used for something functional my opinion would be different but as far as I seen it’s just used because it’s there.
I do agree with Erica, you and the many other virtual world enthusiasts, they are more engaging. But just adding a third dimension doesn’t make something better. Another example is shown in the Flickr link from the ThinkBalm Figure #1 in your article, a four color square target for polling. Even the results of this polling system (3D color-coded bars) are no better then the 2D version.
However, there was a potential voting system I came across a couple of years ago where people were asked to meet in the DC mall at locations that demonstrated there “stood” on a two dimensional issue. Then people near you had their opinions in common with you on those issues. Of course, in a virtual world we have full three dimensions available to us so we could “float” our opinions on three issue dimensions at a time.
On your other topic, Hub2, wow! Land use planning – there’s a great use of virtual worlds. Of course that’s been known for a long time but Hub2 really brought it home to me. But my contrarian questions are: Are avatars needed? Should this be done in Second Life or Google Earth?
OK, this is the sort of thing that, as an academic researcher, really burns me. To quote the most annoying part of the review:
Messrs. Cacioppo and Patrick are too optimistic in believing that their three modes of connection are “highly correlated”: that if you are “happy in one (marriage, say) you tend to be happy in the others.” As E.M. Forster reminded us in “Two Cheers for Democracy,” we may have to betray our country if we are to stay loyal to our friends. Or conversely, as any number of characters in Tolstoy’s “War and Peace” discover, we may have to attenuate our relations with a lover or intimate friend if we are to serve our country fully. And as innumerable postcolonial novels emphasize, we may be shunned by our friends and family if we pursue a “forbidden” love outside our community or ethnic group.
OK, so here are some researchers who go to pains to collect empirical evidence convincing them that those who have strong connections of one type have strong connections of another type.
The reviewer’s counterargument? Anecdotes that support his own ideology. And from fiction, no less!
@ Dusan and all…I want to say Merry Christmas, I want say just Merry, I want to say many things, to which and back at you, Dusan. While sharing with the rest, here is a gift to you, perhaps to help, even if for a moment (a poem I wrote called “Reaching For Sunlight”)
As long as I have cognition,
my tears will flow
of the sorrow, and the missing
inside her soul.
The bird will sing
as long as she will listen,
even when she’s not there,
even as the soft water glistens.
Singing of love, beckoning for love;
a tree where you may rest.
You will see the view;
please bring your nest
Let go your grasp,
spread your wings and fall;
flying will be natural,
as love cannot thrall.
Wonderful points about the 3D mind map. As these are very early prototypes, I think we’re in the early days of refining them. Your comments have been echoed by others, in particular around the time it takes to get over the ‘annoying’ part, I suppose is the best word for it.
I’m not convinced we’ve yet struck on exactly the right visual cues to make the mind maps perfectly intuitive. The work that Jeff has done, for example, which has been used at ThinkBalm, ends up with the difficulty of a stationary mind map and the need to cam around to be able to read the floating text, and the prototype we did, wherein the nodes move, makes it easy to lose track of where your nodes are!
Part of the issue is technical, I think: the use of float text over prims is a clunky solution. Making the nodes move so they don’t overlap is one way of allowing unlimited nodes (or branches) but can make it difficult to create a sense of hierarchy or to highlight which branches are newly added etc.
However, I’ll make a few points I suppose: one, because these are early prototypes it’s also early days, and the insights of yourself and others is helping to provide insight into what works and what doesn’t There are a few plans in the works to increase their functionality, and I’ll touch on a few of them:
- Cross-integration (real time) to a 2D Web site. This will be useful for ongoing mind maps where participants can come and add branches at their leisure, for team projects say, like specification trees.
- Branch ‘voting’, similar in some ways to what Keystone did with Wikitecture where branches can be voted on, and branches ‘fall off’. In fact, I keep returning to Keystone’s tree, because I think it may be a more intuitive symbol that works in 3D.
- Addition of notecards, textures, and other content within the branches.
- Thoughts around different visual symbols other than nodes and branches.
Now, having said that, you bring up an incredibly useful question: what exactly IS the third dimension of the mind map? What is it adding that a 2D mind map DOESN’T have? In my experience, the dimension has been presence – there’s something about being able to voice or text chat with other people present that is the equivalent to a brainstorm session “live” – but I can’t always fly folks in to do a brainstorming and so use SL as a platform for this. Mind you, I also use teleconference calls, Skype, and asynchronous e-mail: it’s all about using the right tool for the right job.
Where I’ve seen the mind maps used most effectively is when they are ‘recording devices’ for group discussion. Rather than as the focus, a moderator or ‘nod(t)e taker’ documents the conversation to provide an artefact of the brainstorm session.
So…I totally agree. There’s more work to be done. And that’s the fun part: I’m convinced that as one of many tools, mind maps are simply examples of the range of collaborative tools that is arising in virtual worlds that may, in SOME cases, supplement, replace or be an option IN ADDITION to other brainstorming techniques.
On that note, I have also really enjoyed polling systems in SL. I was trying to find the link to the “vote by standing” poll you talked about. I know IBM had one – I had a tour of it at NMC and it seemed very effective.
But thinking about other brainstorming methodologies – red dot exercises, clustering, scenarios, etc. I think there’s a lot of rich terrain to explore.
Land use planning: again, I agree. In fact, I personally believe that virtual worlds for land planning and architecture are having difficulty for a number of reasons, one of the main reasons being scale and camera control. You can plan a city street to scale, but if you walk through it, especially with our 8 foot avatars and cameras that hover another foot above us, it won’t “feel right” and so presents problems. I’d defer to architects on this question. (I’m sure they’d also argue that inability to import meshes and architectural files is also problematic).
I like Erica’s term “Immersive Internet” (or maybe not her term, but the one she has adopted) because it’s a heck of a lot easier to understand that “Metaverse”. I like it because it reminds us that the tools and approaches we’re adapting now don’t JUST have application in virtual worlds, but that virtual worlds are part of a wider trend towards more immersive 3D spaces that include mirror worlds, virtual worlds, life logging and augmented reality.
The work we’re doing now on 3D mind maps in a virtual world, for example: one day, those same tools will be used as part of an augmented reality exercise in a “real” room in which the 3D mind map will be layered onto the atomic space.
Google Earth will one day include avatars (or mirror worlds, like Twinity, will provide deeper utility) because for urban planning, it will be important to have plans ‘at scale’ with layered GIS and other info, and the option to “port in” will be used sparingly but effectively, much as architects simulate ‘walk-throughs’ now.
Very exciting times, because the work we’re seeing now is planting the seeds, providing the lessons, and establishing the code base and insights that will help shape the wave of parallel innovation to come.
I’m particularly struck by the line “You will see the view; please bring your nest”.
Thank you for your poem. I’m glad we can gather here and ignore the shaky logic of the reviewer (as Beyers points out) and remember that we’re on a journey that he might never be able to fully grasp…and which I hope I never can, because I’m less interested in the destination than the journey.
[...] – bookmarked by 4 members originally found by HarpersOutlaw1 on 2008-12-01 Virtual Worlds that Matter: Slim Jim Spicy Town http://dusanwriter.com/?p=683 – bookmarked by 1 members originally found by siyimaee on 2008-11-20 [...]
[...] recently covered the possibilities of “richly rendered” 3D spaces, have looked at the OTOY engine, and have been wowed by Blue Mars (although disappointed with their business model and the [...]
Well… they could make their filter smarter about word boundaries, but if Sony is running it, maybe they _want_ to filter out Matsushita…
On 12.31.08 Anonymus-Not said:
I think it’s funny how noone comments here when I am allowed and how – even though they would – noone is allowed to post on the official SL blog. I also wonder how many views I get this way, much more I would get with an own blog tee-hee.
2k8 looking back was not a financially bad year for us in SL. All our logging mechanisms measured a steady rate of visitors/customers with an expected Halloween and Christmas spike.
However what counts much more is SL itself. (I don’t really like the term virtual world industry, because up until now all other contenders (let’s say it: wannabees) lack real innovation.)
—
SL has changed a lot. It is mainly due to ‘the Lab’ functioning no more like a lab, much more like a ’service provider’. (I hate this expression by the way.)
They are desperately trying to get a grip on ’something’, trying to act as an environment for education, virtual meetings, a game platform, a place for ultimate creativity and many more.
These directions might be good or bad, but it is out of scope for now to analyze these existing possibilites, I would rather ask a question or two from ‘the Lab’ itself (and I hope that ’spiritually’ it is still led by Philip Rosedale – who, according to Wikipedia, is an American _Businessman_, but I have better feelings thinking of him as an inventor).
** Why does SL exist? What is the purpose of SL? **
edit: I cut like 3 paragraphs that were hard to read, let’s just summarize them and let’s try to behave like we are still a Lab but also want to get some cash at the counter.
– Answer it with quick questions and answers –
* What would the world lose with SL going offline at this moment – Nothing.
* Can we do anything to change this and if we can, how? – Yes and see below.
Below
* How can we change this? Do we have a direction (a tactic… a strategy.. a vision…) or just a lot of officers (executive this, executive that, manager of this and manager of that) without private soldiers?
- We must have clear directions. With ugly buzzwords. We have thin pencil lines now. How can we convert them to nice inklines? Provide the functionality. Broaden the userbase. Outsource it to great minds like Anonymus Not. (Oops, that last comment was not intentional and must came from a frustrated ego, _strikethrough_ that. I hate outsourcing too. Ansd consultants too. The idea of them. The ideology behind them. I hate the self-proclaimed ’solution providers’ too. Gaaa.)
Buzzwords: Create, Meet, Learn (Educate!!) and Play, _COMMUNICATE_ (with the residents), PROTECT CONTENT. Strikethrough the rest of the buzzwords. (Keep it simple.)
Now what is really needed, to use a nice strong ink for these. Did we use it in 2k8? No, we didn’t. Umm. THAT is not good.
So… what? Erm… people did that instead of us! No they didn’t. They are stupid. People are just a stupid bunch of pixels until you zoom on them. They come in and they leave. Because there is NO CONTENT. REZZABLE sims are NOT CONTENT. AM RADIO sims are NOT CONTENT. TEMPLUM EX SUMTHIN are NOT CONTENT. These are sims for photoshopping freaking snapshots (and how bad people are in that… it’s like everybody ‘knows’ photoshop, no they don’t), but we need sims where you can actually DO SOMETHING….
Well then.. .for 2k9…
2009
//hire a group of people to start to create a new architecture
* CREATE Provide a place for creativity – organize building contests and BE the jury, don’t hire residents for it. Residents are the plebs. Ask AM Radio if he has ever heard of ambient occlusion, caustics or global illumination, no he hasn’t. These people, the residents are average Joes, most of them create in SL, because they are not good enough to create elsewhere where there _is_ actual competition.
* EDUCATE Educate people. ARC was one of the best thing to introduce. Let sim owners have a clear statistics page for their sim, where they can see HOW inefficient they built or how those so-called solution providers built a bad, bad sim for him. COLOR-CODE sims based on these stats on the map. So everyone would see, NO, DON’T ENTER TEMPLUM EX SUMTHIN or TEMPURA, because they wil KILL your PC.
//build your own linux distro that starts with SL and every application is accessible from it
* LEARN Provide learning sims and contact educators who are _professional_ in their field. No, these are not residents, save for a few. Lure them into SL. It is equally important to educate your content creators. You must have BOTH a clear webpage AND an inworld site for EVERY level of creators. No, the Ivory tower of Prim is out of date. Where is the professional help for someone starting out with _real_ 3D modelling tools
* PLAY Provide the means for gaming. Make Official Linden races. I have tons and tons of ideas. My head is exploding, I think it has already exploded, but I reverted to a saved version.
* PROTECT At the same time, protect the content. Gaa! I know… it can be copied. Yes it can!! But who is the one who makes the copies? The bots! Do we want to save the bots? No. I love them, but… gaa… let’s make that damn captcha for the login screen! Let’s make a captcha for teleport!
Hah! You would say: people would turn away! Oh yes, but WHAT IF THE SIM OWNERS’ CAN SET options like they can set the allow only payment info used residents? Like x – Allow only people who used CAPTCHA for logon; x – Force people to use captcha upon teleporting into the sim; x – Allow only people who use the official SL client for logon.
Or what’s even better: let PEOPLE HAVE THEIR OWN MECHANISM BEFORE LETTING PEOPLE IN THEIR SIM. Like a simple question?
PLUS! Gaa, I’m shouting. So. *Takes a deep breath.* At least let sim owners have a statistic of their visitors WITH IP address and the ability to ban certain IP adresses or subnets.
I know you fear the losing of bots would cause a decrease in statistics. Yes. But in the long term it will be a HUGE benefit.
You say these are just slowing down attacks or making things harder for thieves? Yes, exactly. But now they cut thru IP rights like knife thru hot butter.
I’m stopping now before it’s too late.
Anyway, HAPPY NEW YEAR everyone, I love SL.
PS I never drink/consume (alcohol) nor any kind of meds. I should write everything into a 100 page pdf, but noone would read it.
On 12.31.08 Goedeke Messmer said:
I questioned the Rezzable thing back when Metanomics was fairly new. I got quite a bit of blow-back for suggesting that there was no discernible revenue streams in place.
Having started up several companies over the years with varying results, my failures have one thing in common: a lack of income streams — the whole “we will make it up in volume” mindset while giving away the store is too easy to fall into.
On 12.31.08 Goedeke Messmer said:
Microsoft tackled these problems with XBox Live via a reputation system, but that system was attached to small group games, not an entire world.
Second Life ditched the reputation system in favor of simple muting, but also fenced the kiddies into the Teen Grid to paper over the problem.
Any online “world” will have to face these questions, but those that cater to teens have the challenge of legal compliance issues as well. Frankly, not a job I would want.
If only people would stop taking words and changing their meaning. And maybe they could also avoid using context. I guess UK players who smoke will find it hard to tell their Playstation pals they need “to go bum a fag from someone.” And let’s hope they don’t have to tell someone how to open their virtual front door by “grabbing their knob.”
Goedeke – I don’t disagree. My own theory on this stuff is really vague, but it goes something like this: if you’re going to be in the content business, you need to develop a business model that engages users at increasingly complex levels. Start with objects, build a second tier of community, sell service packages, offer subscriptions, create communities of interest within the one community of interest.
Having said that, I do agree with RaR that the tools within SL are ineffective in many ways. Groups suck, metrics are hard to come by, estate tools are spotty, all the stuff he’s blogged about. So it’s not that I disagree that there are limits to the ability to extend the basic business model of, say, Greenies into community building, subscriptions, whatever. Although, having said THAT you then take a look at Immersive Workspaces and you see deep integration with Web-side services using existing tools so, well, I’m not sure – seems to me a lot IS possible.
I suppose I’m rather ungenerously taking RaR to task a bit here. Greenies and the Rezzable sims have been a great contribution to the Grid – the fact that they didn’t contribute to his plans for his business is probably a lot more complex than I’m making out and I suppose we can debate it all day.
But what sort of bugs me is that RaR has taken what should be a fun, community, product-oriented Web site (Rezzable.com) and turned it into a soap box for being cranky and slamming LL. That’s what personal blogs are for. It’s not that he doesn’t have a right to do it, but it sounds a little like an oil or car company Web site slamming government because they didn’t get enough tax breaks or whatever to encourage innovation.
Constructive criticism is great, constant crankiness on a corporate/product Web site is a business decision. I’ll gladly argue the constructive criticism, much of it valid, and like Anonymous-Not, leave my comments open if someone needs a place to vent.
And on that point – A-N, I think you actually have a fair number of valid points and ideas in all that. The one that strikes me the most is the idea of providing training, support and community for different content creator types. I’ve blogged about this before – I’d like to see LL operate more like a game platform – an X-Box say, whatever…with their primary tasks being to a) develop the underlying technologies b) educate its development community on those technologies through deep training and development and c) create proper marketing and promotion channels in which their content partners (meaning, well, everyone) can participate through well-articulated means.
OK…well….time to get ready to ring in the New Year. Hmmm. If someone wants to invite me somewhere I’m on my way.
Have you looked at Edusim? the “A World without Avatars” section is very similar to what Edusim is doing (I believe one of the early version did not have an avatar) and Alot of the 3D factory floor
Opensim is a very interesting platform which is driven by 100’s of people from all over the world who keep working at it each and every day to make it a robust platform which can function as an open source virtual world platform software system.
People get more freedom with opensim and can develop their own projects if they wish.
Heh. Dusan, I have to think that the brutal fact is that talk is cheap and flimsy, and code is (relatively) expensive and durable. I’ve seen any number of proposals/discussions fizzle out on the OpenSim lists (and others) for want of implementation. Only when somebody presents some implementation are we forced to consider whether we want it in core or not (and even if we don’t, it can always exist as an external module).
OpenSim is a disparate group of corporate/entreprenurial/hobbyist coders (and the hobbyists are often best of all). I don’t believe that there’s any way that we could get policy concensus within the group even if we wanted to, short of some preventative measures (such as, we will not develop a core money module).
The policy you talk about can only be done outside, I should think by a group which is prepared to take reliably working software and discuss a set of rules for living (possibly with some custom code thrown in on top).
I think that we are simply incapable of predicting the future accurately enough to make it worth while to try and plan everything before we write a single line of code, even if everybody were so inclined. At this stage we’re ‘doomed’ to evolve rather than be intelligently designed.
Thanks for the intelligent response. And I’d like to clarify a few things, if I could, about my perspective on this.
First, I don’t hold believe it’s the coders responsibility to have this discussion. Those who have enterprise stakes however, would greatly benefit by these kinds of discussion. I believe that these discussions would lead to opportunities for innovation that would sufficiently motivate people to start taking action, which would then involve coding.
Second, I am not asking that these things be in the core. I’m not even saying they SHOULD be coded. I do believe that with a robust discussion that sets aside (at first) the actual code in question would lead to ideas for modules, secondary services, partnerships and, sure, maybe some change to the core code.
Example: identity authentication. As I understand it, this was handled by many grids with OpenID? I can’t remember. But one thing that strikes me as a possible source of innovation, which would arise around a stakeholder discussion around trust and identity, is the idea of some sort of approach to managing avatar names and registration across grids. Maybe this is a Lab thing, who knows – but at least have the discussion and, as a result, perhaps identify third parties and approaches to this – it probably wouldn’t even impact the core module at all.
I never said we needed to predict the future before writing code. But I’m saying there has never been a better time for the serious stakeholders in virtual worlds to actually have this discussion. Instead, the response is always similar to your own: “we coders will deal with it when there’s sufficient demand or a use case that requires it, otherwise we’re hobbyists and are making out the best we can.”
So fine, don’t show up. But I’d like to see a business issues/use case forum then where these issues CAN be discussed, the coders can stay at home, and once we’ve found the innovation opportunities we’ll get back to you. There are enough people out there who WOULD fund implementation if only they didn’t feel like it was like banging your head against the wall just trying to have the discussion.
Oh don’t get me wrong – I have nothing against discussions on policy topics and in the long term I think they will yield valuable insights. It’s just that I’m always somewhat distrustful of the notion of trying to design the future before it gets here – it seems reminiscient of trying to design a standard before it’s clear what is actually needed (which to me often seems to come about through evolution).
Within the heterogenous terrain of OpenSim it seems inappropriate to impose direction. The views of the stakeholders are simply too divergent. People will have very different ideas of what they want their grids to look like, and others aren’t primarily interested in using OpenSim for public grids at all.
Indeed, the modular nature of OpenSim speaks to this – we’re going down the route of allowing people to write plugins to make OpenSim do what they want, within reason. The core should try to be as small as possible.
Perhaps the focus of this debate is really on virtual world protocols (which OpenSim could be part of along with completely different vw implementations, much as Apache and Microsoft’s Internet Information Services both speak HTTP).
Justin: You may be right on where the most appropriate forum might be. Mind you, I’d personally rather hook some of this up to OpenSim discussions because it’s a more innovative platform right now and other ’standards’ and ‘road map’ discussions are having difficulty gaining traction, in my opinion.
Again, however, I can not stress enough that I am NOT advocating for coding policy into the core. I am advocating for a definition of what types of policy people might find advantageous, figuring out the opportunity value, and then looking at different ways to execute. I also believe that this MIGHT lead to insight that would be useful to the core, but not necessarily. I’m really not dogmatic on this.
(By the way, I’d be just as happy to take content protection off the table during the first ’round’ just so it doesn’t become a flash point and leave it for later).
I do like your point about protocols – maybe the language I’m using is the problem. I am NOT advocating for direction or rules. I AM advocating for a few agreed upon protocols that might speed up innovation across the implementations of OpenSim because they are developed in the context of broader business challenges.
Finally – on the issues of code before standards or standards before code, can’t we meet on the middle on this? I’ve never advocated for standards before code, ever. I’m advocating for a meaningful emergence of standards before the code base becomes so entrenched that it’s difficult to back-track. Surely we have enough under our belts right now that a few key protocols can start to emerge? I mean, I know they have but just at least keep them coming.
On 01.02.09 Justin Clark-Casey said:
Sorry if I mischaracterized your arguments Dusan – I shouldn’t really have written when I was tired _and_ hungry. I do think you have a point about trying to avoid baking in mistakes – the earlier we can catch these the more it’s to our advantage.
I do think it’s a little early for standards, though. So many things are in their infancy (intergrid architectures, viewer and intersim protocols, content import/export, etc.) that I think it is going to be around another year or so before any useful formalization can take place.
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A very good point about the flexibility to operate as a “A World without Avatars”, especially for business uses. Corporate users, particularly at the higher levels in an organization will just not be comfortable using avatars for the foreseeable future. Avatars (even realistic ones) are just too “cartoony” for them to take seriously. Removing the avatar from the equation breaks down a huge barrier for adoption and integration of these environments into the business world. There are many opportunities for “avatarless” virtual spaces, especially when virtual spaces are combined with the real world, when the users are fully present and visible to everyone involved.
I offer an example with the Teliris InterAct TouchTable and TouchWall collaboration options for telepresence systems: http://interactivemultimediatechnology.blogspot.com/2008/11/teliris-interact-touchtable-and.html
(* full disclosure I am a Teliris employee and work on this project, shameless plug I know, but relevant to the point)
We are creating a single virtual space (the table and walls) mapped onto two or more real world spaces (surfaces in the telepresence rooms). Shared virtual workspace, no avatars required
I see no reason why OpenSim would prevent avatarless interaction. I believe most avatar rendering would be on the viewer side anyway, but it is something I hope the OpenSim developers keep in mind as they move forward with this amazing project.
Often it is not that much an issue of “the media” being positive or not. It very much depends on individual journalists. If you have a journalist who knows about virtual worlds in your newspaper, he or she well write good stories about virtual worlds, it is as simple as that. Like the reason companies experiment with virtual worlds is very often that some highly motivated individuals wanted to move forward.
On 01.04.09 Prokofy Neva said:
I remember visiting the Surfline sims and thinking “yeah, I’d buy a place here” and then being completely stymied when I couldn’t find a house to rent or land to buy. There was barely even anything to BUY. And I was willing. I LIKE buying stuff, even if it’s stuff I don’t NEED.
Bingo. RaR hates land. He hates land as a commodity. He also actually loathes commerce. He’s one of the technocommunists with a neo-geo brand of business that he thinks will involve pulling a rabbit out of the open-source hat, but by using old-media methods of “few-to-many,” making high-end professional content like on the Rezzable sims, and then merely flushing the great unwashed public over them to gawk at the stuff, and then pushing ads at them, like ads for perfumes.
He actually has no respect for avatars as beings, for the virtual world as one they’d like to inhabit and buy things for, and doesn’t make them comfortable. He consistently, again and again, laughs, ridicules, abuses, and despises the notion of buying or renting land — and the people who engage in this business. It’s really an ideological frenzy, and it comes out of that latent collectivism that rapidly leads to the New Class, as you can see, as he pulls together a stable of expensive builders and designers, but doesn’t let them even put out a stall with their vendors, instead, he puts an admission price on their builds, and then puts out very carefully culled and feted stuff like Black Swan lingerie, not even making it easy to click and buy it. It is not for commerce. It is not for people. It is for RaR, the commissar, to control and soak for what ever he can get out of it.
I just find this model utterly loathsome and will go on exposing it. It’s like Disney, only without the niceness, and without the lunchboxes and sneakers you can buy in the store with the Disney logo. I remember the first time I went to Greenies I felt *mugged* — mugged by having to gawk and be discomforted by the big-ass build, mugged by having to endure the little in-jokes with old TV, mugged by the idea that I couldn’t right click and interact and become part of the scene, mugged by the idea that I couldn’t even buy anything without looking all over hell’s half-acre for it.
And this stuff isn’t incompetence or neglect — it’s conscious. It’s a conscious rejection of commerce as it has always been practiced freely among people. His constant ragging on LL and their alleged failure to keep pumping newbies to flush over his sims to gawk at them and become passive eyeballs for his push-perfume-ads is just contemptible. They’ve given him every benefit with mention on their slgrid.net page and multiple featuring on their Showcase. Good lord, you should be able to coin money on the rentals and sales of stuff if you just put it out and stop being so frigging arrogant and insolent about commerce and *people*.
On 01.04.09 Prokofy Neva said:
I’m curious about what goes through the minds of you and Vint and other Creative Commons nutters who flog CC all the time and yet don’t practice what you preach.
I saw that same photo on Vint Falken’s site, and wanted to use it, so I clicked to see where it went — it’s not her photo, but merely Via Vint as you point out. That click led me to some other guy’s Flickr page…at the end of the chain was a professional photographer who had been at Burning Life who had a business page with these photos. Nothing on the photos or his site said they were available under CC to just grab and post with a link to him. I figured Vint and the other guy were just friends with him or figured they were all Burners together and it would be fine. So often CC works that way! I figured if *I* posted it with a link to his page, I might get a nasty note — and I also couldn’t immediately find out how to write to ask his permission…so I didn’t use his photo.
SUCH a typical example of the CC shill, and I just wonder how your all’s thinking processes go with this.
On 01.04.09 Prokofy Neva said:
>OK, you know what? Cut the crap. This attitude is a total abdication of the opportunity to innovate. You mention policy and immediately people think you mean ‘content protection’ (which is one HUGE component) and then want to wash their hands of it.
Give me a break. This is narrow-minded, feeble, and shows a stunning lack of imagination.
Raph Koster thought long and hard about content protection, avatar rights and commerce before he started coding Metaplace. HE gets it…
Bingo. That’s it EXACTLY. Now have the courage of your perceptions and convictions, Dusan, and don’t be a pussy. You let this opensource thugs then discourage you from discussing COMMERCE and the need to have law supercede code.
And guess what.
Commerce isn’t something that is vague and undefined. And law doesn’t inhibit creativity, it protects it.
Commerce is defined by people in business often as this: “when a willing buyer meets a willing seller over a price”.
The buyer must be willing, and that means having cash, and fraud protection. The seller has to be willing, and as we know, that means IP protection. And they both need cash, currency, and the rules that go with keeping value in currency.
That means private property, not communism.
It means not code-as-law as under technocommunism, but the rule of law as in regulation of business so that it is accountable, and guarantee of the rights of consumers. Most of all it means the legalization of private property which Adam and Justin and these other techocommies think they can jump over and leave in the last century as uncool.
Justin and his lazy laissez-faire code kiddy friends raise issues of “diversity” and “confusion” and “lack of consensus” and all kinds of bullshit to avoid being ACCOUNTABLE TO THE PUBLIC.
You don’t get to just code up a nuclear weapon, and then narf-narf that it went off all pretty and blew up people. You have to work with civilians to make sure your invention is not destructive and harmful to *people*. *People*. *People* and their society is above code, which is merely an inventor’s instruction to a machine. Code is not magical. It is the aggregation of the will of one person or a group of persons; it’s not special, it’s just mechanical, and needs to be brought to heel, just like automobiles on roads need stoplights, traffic rules, etc.
The code kiddies on these opensim grids are like assholes building cars and then saying “oh, we don’t care if people drive around in them and crash and burn and kill each other, in fact that’s kinda fun lulz”.
No. Policy doesn’t “have” to be made outside. It has to be made inside. And if these coders won’t make it under the rule of law under international and universal norms of common sense, then they’ll find that governments and international agencies will do it on top of them and push them aside as the lawless fucks they are.
For you to say that code shouldn’t submit to policy and law, Dusan, it really quite atrocious, given your awareness of what is missing from these worlds.
Essentially, what Justin is saying when you tentatively scuttle away and abdicate to this licentious freak the right to rule *your* world at his *whim* is that his “freedoms” to “innovate” are curbed if he has to think of these “hard” things now and he “doesn’t wanna”.
He shrugs it off to “modulars” on other grids, and merely helps spawn the licentiousness and lawlessness.
Of course you can code policy and law into code, Dusan. Linden Lab, after a torturous route, has been forced to do this themselves.
Example: group tool reforms. They begin with a happy-go-lucky hippie group in which all property is collective, and all property can be sold by anybody regardless of their payment. This seemed like the perfect collective — but it went wrong as such communism always does because it relied on the dirty little secret of code-as-law — tribal understandings.
So they went back and built in checks — founders could now designate who got money and who didn’t; who could put the land to sale and who couldn;t; who could even access the land and who couldn’t. The rule of law, put forth over code and inanimate structures to make a decent human community, where before there was chaos and crime.
Here’s another example: permissions for copy/mod/transfer. Yes, they are hackable. Yes, they are imperfect. But no, they don’t merely signal intention, they work as a mechanical check on theft. Adam and co. couldn’t concede this. But it’s a good example where criminality can be avoided just by good and simple code that doesn’t make it easy for people to steal.
Both of these examples — and there are thousands more — are *coded into the code*, Dusan, so stop being so skittish and politically correct about not touching the blessed Code All Hail the Sacred Code and impeaching on some snotty code kiddy’s precious “creativity”.
Here’s a baked-in-mistake: opensource software and forcible conversion of proprietary virtual worlds into opensource server and client code. It’s not necessary to have interoperability; it’s not necessary to make them grow. The Internet didn’t grow because of Linux or Apache or whatever; it grew because ebay and amazon had proprietary code enabling people to buy and sell safely and retain valuation of property. Virtual worlds can’t skip that step.
On 01.04.09 Prokofy Neva said:
At this stage we’re ‘doomed’ to evolve rather than be intelligently designed.
Doesn’t that sum up the fuck-you hedonism of the code kiddy *perfectly*? Good Lord!
In fact, even evolution as portrayed by hardcore Darwinisms is full of examples of how those “evolving” were wiped out completely by an intelligent design they couldn’t acknowledge that privileged, say, thinking animals that evolved tools and made civilizations and worked out rules to prevent mindless survival killing as in the jungle, rather than remaining as monkeys.
If Darwin was right about Darwinism, human beings would have become extinct long ago.
On 01.04.09 Prokofy Neva said:
>(By the way, I’d be just as happy to take content protection off the table during the first ’round’ just so it doesn’t become a flash point and leave it for later).
Too bad content makers can’t be dragged along on this expedition of yours.
On 01.05.09 win said:
@ last commentor:
Is it possible for you to use a respectful tone? This is an interesting topic and insulting language and uncalled for attacks ruin the discussion. It seems every other line in your comments are design to inflame rather than ad anything useful to the discussion.
Dusan, great article, thanks for sharing your thoughts with us.
If I look at the focus areas of this development – related to accessibility – I am really excited. “Innovation in a Digital Economy” sound particularly interesting!
You honour me with your article, Dusan; thanks very much!
Some comments popped up in my mind as I read it, though. “Interoperability” is actually slightly more important than that, IMHO. I actually was unaware of LL’s forthcoming “grid in a box” product (I just heard about “running your own LL servers behind your corporate firewall, which I now understand to be more than I thought, e.g. having your own set of asset servers, inventory servers, login servers and so on), but it so totally makes sense as a new business product to be launched for 2009. As someone said, giving the choice of getting a complete solution to run your own grid totally independently of LL, getting support from a team that does it for 5 or 6 years, and technology that had been field-proven for that time — or start from scratch with pre-alpha software with little real use, well, I guess that the choice is quite obvious of what corporations (and some universities!) will pick! Also, getting good “gridmins” (grid administrators) with enough expertise to run even a small OpenSim-based grid is hard at this moment in time.
Gwyn: Thanks for the thanks and back at you. The ‘grid in a box’ idea is speculation, but public statements by M and others on the Lab side, remarks by Zha at an Orange Island event, and Justin’s comments all point in that direction.
This whole discussion is fascinating and, at times, a little infuriating.
Prok, I don’t mean to sound like content protection is something I’d want OFF the table. I’m willing to test the idea of having policy discussions on another topic, if it would ease anyone’s anxieties. However, the only purpose in doing that is so that a model can be developed which could then apply to content protection.
In any case, this isn’t my expedition, and I don’t intend to drag anyone along anywhere. I’ve stated enough times, I think, that openSim is missing the opportunity of a lifetime. Someone, somewhere is coming up with their own virtual world technology that isn’t based on how to code prims, but will be based on developing something that builds on ideas around policy, trust and protection. Maybe Microsoft haha.
Time will tell, but I guess I’m on the record now. They’re blowing it. And ironically, the people who clean up the mess will be the big corporations which the open source types so typically deride.
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On 01.05.09 Prokofy Neva said:
No.
I will not be using a respectful tone – especially the sort of net-nanny tone you wish for in sanitized discussions, making your call from an anonymous avatar. Why? Because those attempting to control the metaverse and its contents aren’t respectful of diversity and freedom, either, and only the strongest possible pushback is what they will understand, to understand that they cannot steamroll over people’s concerns.
Even Dusan is forced to say “cut the crap” — and rightly so. Cut the goddamn crap. Dusan is politically correct even in his forcefulness and talks about an, um, “stunning lack of imagination”. I call it “fuck-you hedonism” — which is, “I get to do WTF I want and fuck you”. Same thing. Deal with it.
Justin isn’t respectful of private property, IP, business, and commerce — except for his own, his friends’, and his RL job’s, which of course he’s happy to privilege. He shrugs off the need to create a regime that such commerce as he enjoys with his RL client is enabled for all.
This is war, and it is war that needs fighting, and I will use as much force as I need to verbally in fighting it. If you are troubled, shield your eyes. Of course Dusan may block me from his blog but that will only call more attention to my posts as I will simply put them on my blog and link them.
On 01.05.09 Prokofy Neva said:
Dusan, you’ve copped out here, as I indicated. Giving these thugs a pass is morally wrong and has terrible repercussions. And you aren’t as robust as you need to be on copyright protection precisely because you’ve joined the mad rush, with all the shills and stupidities of Creative Commons and so on, and are adopting the politically correct posture on this as all modern cool dudes want to adopt.
You’ve made another point that is worth contemplating as it unfolds: that so often, opensource is a terrible fraud perpetrated by big business that exploits the hopes and dreams of young people throwing themselves under the bus coding their eyes out. It’s a cynical way to get cheap labour and have no accountability. It’s no accident, comrade, that IBM is all over this like a cheap suit.
On 01.06.09 lr said:
yep.. what the she/he said:)
Whats really “funny” is that the “open source” mantra is one of the key things that Killed vr worlds and web3d in the 1997-2000 go round called VRML/web3d. AND these new 20 year old “braniac” vr gurus–who so openly attacked the old guard of vrml, are doing the SAME exact things that made the old guard, well old and obsolete..lol
Open standards = good open source= scam. IP protection= REQUIRED!
Hmm…Prok, your comments are appreciated. Last thing I ever want to do is cop out.
With regards to shills and mad rush, um…well, I’m not sure where that’s coming from? Which part of my posture is it that you’re calling politically correct?
My posture is basically the following:
- OpenSim is losing a tremendous opportunity to innovate because it’s ignoring policy as a source of insight into ways that the code can be developed to provide enduring, lasting value.
- In the absence of this, per Gwyn’s comments as an example, trust will be difficult to establish, and the ‘genie will be out of the bottle’. What’s interesting about how that plays out, is that it is the large companies, the IBMs or Ciscos of the world, who will most likely step into the breach because they understand BUSINESS, they can establish trust (with wider enterprise, etc), and they’re not shy about patents, law and IP protection when it suits them.
I’m not sure if this ‘posture’ makes me a CC shill, it certainly doesn’t feel like it. And I don’t remember ever posting my detailed thoughts on all that – I’ve fairly consistently argued that IP protection, commerce, business innovation, and paying people for work done are all good things. I’d also argue that open source has distinct domains in which it’s valuable, but I ring warning bells the best I can, where I feel knowledgeable enough to comment.
When Harvard Business Review ran a cover story that was basically titled “How You Can Take Advantage of Open Source” and then laid out a 5 step plan or whatever on how companies can lure free talent into coding software – well, that pretty much says it all.
The above is just a theory. We’ll see how it all plays out. But let’s face it, the motivation of people coding openSim is the challenge, or maybe little dreams of becoming the next Linus or getting a primo job somewhere coding protected, patented software. Otherwise it’s hobbyist stuff, and my main argument is that if you ARE one of those hobbyists, keep your eyes open because this isn’t going to turn out as you intended.
Most likely a few “top coders” will end up privatizing, the rest will be left with dribs and drabs, and the platform will “truly innovate” when a company that cares about the business opportunities around identity, security and IP protection steps in, creates proprietary systems on top of or as an adjunct or based on the lessons learned of OpenSim, and walks off with the win.
On 01.07.09 Jeremy said:
happy 2009
Here is my totally hypothetical high-budget brainstorm on where you could take this…
subtitle: the flip-side to the collaborative 3D environment coin
How about a 3D version of a personal mind map: where the “idea starting-point/ending-point”, or “top-level of idea hierarchy” would start out as your 3d reference point/viewpoint/vantage-point (whatever). We mean an avatarless 3rd person perspective i.e. 3D shooter as apposed to Tombraider or Second-Life, but I was thinking something that looked more like Autocad ( ; Anyways, you would create other idea points and linky-lines that extend out from that location etc.. then you could move your “minds eye” or vantage-point to those other idea points to gain a different “perspective”, literally and conceptually. This would operate in a completely 360 environment with an endless black background, i.e. focus on the ideas not graphics. Ideas points (clouds, roundy things) themselves could be an assortment of “text-pages” or “pictures” (or laser scanned 3d objects in the premium version haha) that you could float your 3d brain perspective-point over/around/rotate-from-inside-of and read-look at
Of course the icing on the cake would be to do all this using virtual reality glasses/gloves, ie manipulate the mindmap in 3d as well. Kind of similar to how our brains our structure too, i.e. neural network.
if something like this has been done before (this is all easily feasible with 1994 technology) let me know..!!
On 01.07.09 lr said:
OR. its not theory. but history repeating.
youll see.
c3
VEEEERY interesting! I’m really curious to hear reactions from people in the blind community, and how these features can be integrated into the actual viewer.
I hope that there is some system of validation or moderation for the annotation. Perhaps I’m cynical, but the first thing that leapt to mind was griefers intentionally posting misleading and erroneous annotations.
On 01.12.09 Tabliopa Underwood said:
Dusan Writer wrote “… the platform will “truly innovate” when a company that cares about the business opportunities around identity, security and IP protection steps in, creates proprietary systems on top of or as an adjunct or based on the lessons learned of OpenSim, and walks off with the win.”
Mr Mitch Kapor believes Linden Lab going to walk off with the win. I believe him. SecondLife the only one with a working economy. Without that then I think that any other alternative world based off the SL/OSim code just going to be a game played by enthusiasts who just in it for the fun or the codey cred like you say.
One of the things Ive noticed is the new efforts from what little Ive seen of them just doing what SL does already more or less. Sure can get more stuff like prims etc but is just more of the same stuff we can get already in SL without the economy and the LL reputation behind it.
The worldview itself hasnt changed in those efforts a whole lot. I think maybe that anyone looking at what might be possible with the OSim base could think about creating an alternative worldview to that already offered by SL. Otherwise is a bit like trying to outAnse Ms Anse Chung. Mr Desmond Shang come the closest to this and so has USS. But they have different worldviews to Ms Chung and is why they having success.
Codey stuff is great and all that. But the user doesnt really care. Well I dont anyways. SL code OS code OG code yada yada so what really. As long as code goes I really dont care how.
Is a bit like my car. I just hop in and turn the key and go. As long as it does that I dont really care about anything else really. Except for the colour.
LL sell me a white car. It goes quite good. But I dont really want another white car even if goes better than the one I got already. I want a blue car or a red one even =) and maybe I get one oneday hopefully. Because I look way better driving down to the mall in colour =)
On 01.12.09 puneet said:
how can i subscribe the immersive workspace 2.0.
can some body suggest me the link…….
If you have other questions, please e-mail me. (My address is the top right corner of this page).
On 01.14.09 Alberik Rotaru said:
Not sure I agree. All this post-atomic, bytes not bits, stuff was floating around at the time of the dot.com boom. Much of it died with that boom, and the rest fell down on 11 September. Nations are about power and there is very little evidence of social networks commanding any great hard, or even soft, power. The supporters of the two sides in the Gaza conflict at recent SL events seem to have identified somewhat strongly with the chunks of real estate in the first world rather than with each other or their common second world experience.
In ancient times (okay it was about 1996) disintermediation was the rah rah word of the day. Organisations like corporations and governance were about to disappear in favour of peer-to-peer networks. There’s really not a lot of evidence of that happening, of users identifying with a VW rather than their nationality, or of any VW developing the basics of a common culture or political feeling.
On 01.14.09 Alberik Rotaru said:
Sadly I hit the button too quickly. Mention of social networks will undoubtedly lead someone to mention al-Qa’ida.
ibn Khladun, and for that matter several Christian historians, were describing social networks rebelling against the government in the thirteenth century. Christianity and Islam seem more prone than most religions to generating chiliastic networks that want to change the order of the world by armed uprising. al-Qa’ida is a very old, not a new phenomenon. Some exact analogies off the top of my head would the Anabptist group that seized control of Munster briefly, the long campaign by the Assassins who were eventually suppressed by the the superpower of their day, the Mongols, or the Almoravid and Almohad movements which briefly dominated the Maghreb and Muslim Spain.
Each of these medieval social networks was directed at acquiring actual real estate as is their contemporary successor. The instrument may have changed but the song remains the same.
On 01.14.09 ichabod Antfarm said:
When Philip has the power to draft me into the 101st Flying Neko Brigade and send me to Darfur to wag my tail and gesture spam the enemy, I will take this kind of speculation more seriously. I understand there is a great opportunity here to wax hyperbolic about our brave new worlds but it’s all just pixie dust until you can “put boots on the ground”, as it were.
I have more and more encountered the word, “atomic”, to describe the meat that types these words. It is a strange theory of reality to me. If we are nothing but atoms on one side of the glass, and nothing but electrons on the other then we would be wholly quantum phenomenon and, therefore, I should theoretically be able to teleport myself to work every day. I can’t so I think there is an aspect of the phenomenon of “we” that is overlooked by this model; in short, the gurgling bag of blood and bones that is born, pays taxes, then dies.
I am sorry Dusan but the barest notion of a “Nation of Facebook” makes my skin crawl, I should say, makes my atoms, um, makes my atoms… See, atoms just don’t do all those things that make being made up of atoms so much scary fun.
This paper always seemed a bit odd to me, like the headline should be: “Forterra funds a study reporting that Forterra’s technology is *great*!”
On 01.14.09 Alberik Rotaru said:
Actually, the atomic world versus some other particle world language shows one of the serious problems with much of this post-modern post-atomicism. Despite the heavily sciency sounding language there’s often very little connexion between the words that get used and the actual meaning of those words.
Scienciness bears about as much relation to science as truthiness does to truth.
On 01.14.09 ichabod Antfarm said:
“Scienciness bears about as much relation to science as truthiness does to truth.”
Hehe. Thanks for the clarification, Alberik. I am one of those pre-post-modernists for whom semiotics begins and ends with the OED.
lol, the blog calling the kettle “black.”
measured results? white papers? virtual reality indeed.
cdz
On 01.14.09 Alberik Rotaru said:
I’d comment more, Icha, but I’m booked to speak at this fabulous seminar, planned months ago, on the Post-Atomic Economy where we will discuss how the the creation of financial derivatives has set us all free from the boring, prosaic and pre-post-atomic need to ever make any actual stuff ever again. Oh wait.
The notion of “engagement” is important, though. In a recent podcast by Prof. Chris Dade of Harvard, he suggests three ways such experiences work; they allow multiple perspectives; the provide situated (or context-specific) learning; and they allow an individual to practice skills that can be transferred to real life.
Incidentally, a very nice person from Forterra commented on my blog posting following my suggestion that flying penises may be a problem for them. Apparently they (a) have already ensured that won’t happen and (b) have no sense of humor.
I agree with Hamlet but I think his suggestion for a new title is implicit anyway. This is a commercial white paper which is a common genre used to promote a companies own products. So Forterra are not alone in using this tactic – it is a commonplace marketing tool.
[...] know where I can get this jacket? From this blog and this interview Last edited by Sansarya; Today at 02:02 PM.. Reason: added the photo, rather [...]
Monday should be interesting, for sure. I’d like to hear why he stopped blogging. Can we finally learn what really happened with Cory? Has he got prim hair now?
Great article, and reveals some of the architecture doubts I have about opensim suddenly scaling well.
Re integration with flat apps (like spreadsheets etc). This is something I’ve argued for very strongly and found many virtual world devs less than intersted in. Unfortunately when you think about the real world, flat apps are our dominant information medium.
Remember the amazing fancy 3d haptic glove interface Tom Cruise used in Minority Report. Though the whole thing was 3d and augmented reality, the dominant information unit was flat stuff – pics, movies and text. By contrast most virtual worlds are the communication/information equivalent of sitting on your hands around the fireside having a chat – nothing flat is easy to bring in.
I work for a living in 3D so should be very high on the 3D-use scale, but breaking down my work day I spend twice as much time in flat apps as I do in 3d applications. Bring those flat apps in world and I’ll start using them (or collaborating with them) there… but until that starts to happen… meh.
WOW Sansarya How are you!
It IS a great jacket, no doubt….and about this ‘vision’ of Phil, I mean HELLO, the guy is genius, no one the ‘creative mind’ thinks like everyone else. Of course SL will be the pioneer of many great things to come…sheesh!
Peace!
I think bringing flat apps to 3D world is necessary, but it is even more important (or at least more exciting…) to make those 2D apps into 3D. Think about word processing, we could have blocks of text that we rearrange collaboratively.
Or powerpoint; instead of flipping through 2D slides, we could fly from place to place.
Ditching 2D does not work either – we have 2D texts, signs and a lot more in RL too!
Actually, I think you’ve got it quite right… SL is so totally medieval, with its land/tier and slave-labor-esque ways. And the great uncertainty for when the end of the world (cough) grid might come and all the dragons lurking about…
What is so magical about peer-to-peer, anyway? It might work when you have a set of things that never change in themselves, say, a million music mp3s that people upload, i.e. the collection grows one by one, but the items in that collection are not dynamically changing. Even so, you have to have multiple servers and at a certain point time becomes an issue, that is, the relaying of orders to use other servers in order to keep serving up the copy of the tune begins to thin out and weaken as too many millions access the system.
But imagine if each file is constantly being edited, added to, renamed, put in short-term storage, put in long-term storage, linked with other things — in short, all the dynamism of a user-generated world, like Second Life. Then it seems to me peer-to-peer becomes a nightmare.
It’s one thing when all Lombardi and McCahill have to move around are the rabits and blocks and pictures and it’s just them and a bunch of professors, but it’s quite another when the number of objects is in the millions and billions, and they are constantly being linked and changed dynamically.
The central asset server model only sounds brittle and unscalable if you never conceive of just adding another grid and starting over with a new asset server. What links these grids together, then? Culture, law, universality — and perhaps IMs or think clients like SLim. When you get technology better to link up the central asset servers of the world, you will, but you aren’t in a particular rush about it. If you can’t establish the authenticity and trustworthiness of a grid, you don’t hook it up to your asset server.
Who says the metaverse has to consist of uniform pieces of Swiss cheese with worm holes to port through and identical consistency and penetrability throughout? Why can’t the metaverse be just like the real world, contiguous but not permeable because countries have borders, security, laws, and you need a passport, foreign currency, etc.
We already have a way to collaborate on texts, it’s called “Track Changes” in Microsoft Word and “your email”. People don’t need the instantaneous collaboration to monkey collectively with a text that you imagine. Writing and thinking ideas is a solitary art, and collaborating is a sequencing art. It doesn’t *have* to be simultaneously. Having asynchronous editing permissions would be *good enough*.
At the UN, in some meetings now projections of Word are put up on the wall so that the countries can edit a text together. But they don’t all jump on it at once and start “rearranging blocks of text”. They ask for the floor, they follow Roberts Rules of Order.
You guys are always trying to lay the pipe to the Metaverse without thinking about the social and political rules of order required to make them coherent.
This is a great post Dusan. I would maybe add something of my own SL experience caring after a large international community. While it is really a cure for loneliness, Second Life also plays a role of smooth social therapy, for manys. If you are a total autist in real life, and that you start to engage every day with people in SL, there is a moment where it becomes like a Pavlovian attitude to start to say Hello to your neighbors…. and this is the smallest effect that SL can achieve withouth really looking for it… it just comes out of this dark, atomic, ultra-modern solitude… I really enjoy reading your blog.. and hope more french people would speak english to enjoy it too…
@Pavig – One of my major areas of interest is exactly what you’re highlighting. I still don’t think we’ve found one of those “aha!” applications that really shows how 2D content can be converted to 3D space. The closest, I think, is Photosynth.
Prok – I’m really no expert on all that, just highlighting what was an interesting article which, I believe, came down on the side of central asset servers but I may be mistaken. The article supports that peer-to-peer has the challenge of creating difficulties with managing “state”. What I think we’re starting to see with the Hypergrid stuff on OpenSim is a sort of distributed asset model, where each grid has a central asset server but those assets can be transferred from grid to grid. The fact they acknowledge that the trust issues around this haven’t been addressed has me, well, baffled. It would seem to me that you’d start with trust and worry about how assets are distributed after, but I’m preaching to the choir in pointing that out to you.
If medieval metaphor is what you seek, my favorite Second Life progenitor is The Garden of Earthly Delights by Hieronymus Bosch. This delightful triptych has all the elements of real and virtual disjuncture that predates SL by several centuries. Perhaps if Bosch had been born into this century, he’d be immersed in the metaverse creating fantastical sims.
On 01.18.09 Melponeme_k said:
Great Alchemy scroll, it is about the path to Quintessence….
I don’t see SL as medieval, I see it as a shared psychological space, a fairy tale space…so the alchemy scroll isn’t wrong. Just different from the way you intended.
This post reminded me of a couple of things I’ve seen recently. There is another virtual environment that is working hard on embedding YouTube into their environment. In my search to find that story, I stumbled onto ExitReality’s semi solution to embedded videos… They talk about connecting blinkx.com’s database to a 3D world, allowing users to search all of blink’s database. Here’s the story on Exit Reality’s site – http://blog.exitreality.com/3d-social-networking/virtual-world-video-search-32-million-hours-of-video-in-less-than-10-seconds/
Originally I thought it was Just Leap In that had recently embedded YouTube, but I don’t believe it was. Maybe it was Twinity. I know that Active Worlds just recently offered YouTube support, as well.
When you talked about media limits in Second Life, what did you mean? Did you mean that each “object” is limited to one media stream or something else?
Jim – yes, I was talking about the fact that you can only run one media stream per parcel, thus limiting you to one prim per parcel that can carry video or Web. I’d like to be able to stand and watch 4-5 streams maybe, or have 2 youTube videos available and 2-3 Flash movies or something without having to parcel the sim and move my avatar from parcel to parcel just so I can view.
Seems to me that the RealXtend solution might also be able to play looped Flash animations as well, but I’m not sure whether they can play without the user activating them – it would be nice if they’d play without prompting, taking ‘animated textures’ to a whole new level.
Of course, all of this speaks to REALLY wanting HTML on a prim. Mind you, the downside is managing it all – if every prim could have a media stream, you’d need to consider load on the user’s system.
And yes on Exit Reality. That’s their whole model really, embedded Web pages. Neat approach.
[...] adelantar la agenda de trabajo de la agencia. Nos enteramos de este interesante dato en el blog de Dusan Writer. Interesante como la actividad del mundo “real” es favorecido por las herramientas y [...]
OK, so that’s the same thing three times but honestly, if there were ONE thing that you want ANY product to do it’s WORK! HMTL-on-a-prim? Gee, that would be swell but if it crashes, we’re no closer.
4. More scalable land prices
Want to make everyone a capitalist? Then let them buy their own little plot of land and build on it. And make the tier price go up incrementally, rather than have big jumps – say from $5 to 15$ just by adding an extra 1024m.
5. Prim purchases
Yes, let folks have more prims but paid for. Sure you can push up the prims by buying more land on the same sim, but what if the sim is full? You can’t transfer prim limits from your total land holdings. I have to think that it’s doable – it’s just a big database after all.
6. IP protection
When folks have (a) land and (b) stuff, they become vested. But if that stuff is ripped off, they get discouraged. Maybe we have to consider making sign-on contingent on providing a credit card number. That will discourage folks from simply creating a new alt when they get banned.
7. Better quality graphics
Man, those promos from Nurien using the NVIDIA PhysX engine look sweet! Sure they have no product just yet, but they recently pulled in an extra $15 million in capital so something has to happen soon before the VCs pull the plug.
OK, I feel better now. Of course, there is absolutely no chance that my list will get anywhere close to Philip’s line-of-sight but simply stating what I think is cathartic enough.
HTML coded onto objects in any environment would definitely be a sort of ground breaking idea. I do have one question though: is it better to fuse the 2D and 3D internet together (using a method like making 3D objects encodable with html) or is it better to pioneer something completely different? I mean, something that pushes that does something different than allowing us to plaster 3d objects with the 2d web.
One example: 3d malls where users walk around, look at objects, and “buy” them in real life. This has been tried before, but it failed horribly; probably because its much more clunky, and much slower than shopping on a web page. Are there other alternatives that would make it more appealing than shopping on the 2d web? I guess that’s why ExitReality’s ploy to let you browse videos inside the browser (although it could be done using HTML encoding like you suggested) is something that is kind of fascinating me right now.
This comment turned into a novel!
Jim
P.S. Sorry about the wonky link up top that seems to be encroaching into the rest of your page… I have no idea how that happened.
With point #5, you mentioned purchasing more prims. Are you referring to an imposed limit of prims in a certain area? If so, do you have any concern that there might be simple limits of possibility in what the SL browser can handle? I know that in Active Worlds people gripe about wanting to be able to use higher poly counts, and yes while higher powered computers can handle more rendering, the browser itself has certain inherent limits that make incredibly high poly objects dangerous. I don’t know if SL has similar limits or not, but that might be why it’s limited now?
Dusan – I like some of your points, and your comment on HTML clears up a couple of questions I had posted in another comment. A while back I noted that SL was going to focus on the users first hour experience, which is something that seems very necessary to me. Your first point, improving “search” would be a great step in that direction. However, I’m not sure many “oldies” would appreciate primary focus being on a few newbies, so I’ll pipe down on why that would be benefitial. Maybe I’m wrong
When are we going to have a greater choice of media in SL? With so many technologies out there, it will open up a huge raft of potential business in SL.
QuickTime is good, but what about having proper functionality in the player, maybe even action scripts directly linked to the media, for interactivity.
It’s not rocket science.
The ability to be able to communicate between this environment and the outside world, will open the pathway for greater productivity. Something that is already built in from the source in emerging environments. Come on LL get with the programme, if you want to sincerely survive.
The hour flew by! The talk went very well. Beyers and Philip did a great job touching on many many points and issues with the small amount of time they had.
What I think is most important at this point:
When will Philip Rosedale do this again?
I’m all for creating holistic virtual communities, where teens and adults can interact in ways that enhance positive dialog and the exchange of ideas. It also makes sense for LL to eliminate the overhead associated with supporting multiple grids.
That being said, a merged grid that lacks STRONG protections for teen users would throw the door wide open to potentially devastating emotional and legal consequences. I can see the attorneys queuing up the lawsuit now; after the parents of some naive 14 year old girl find her weeping in front of the computer, while her avatar is “controlled” by an adult who offered her a “pretty collar” as a gift.
[...] Trends in Education 2009 & Teens in Second Life [...]
On 01.20.09 Sunn Thunders said:
“But increasingly, the signs are that the uptake by education of virtual worlds continues.”
This is good to hear. Teachers often get upheld to a standard of behavior/performance/etc. that sometimes seems in conflict with the notion of spending time in a “virtual game.” (Think about it: there are narrow-minded folks out there who would gasp in horror if they knew that their child’s teacher went dancing in Second Life, for example.) Watching places like SL become more mainstream day-by-day eases that pressure on educators and allows the more serious potential of virtual learning to get closer to classroom reality.
Educators can and should be a powerful force driving the integration of virtual environments into the analog classroom. They could be almost as influential as those artist folks (wink)…
On 01.21.09 Prokofy Neva said:
Dusan, you obviously don’t attempt to run a business inworld, or you wouldn’t be making these claims about the X Street search.
Yes, we all go to X Street to do searches, simply because it is arranged in categories already, like amazon.com — not like Google, not like Search ALL, but more like Search Places.
I can go first and manually drill down to something like structures — prefabs — offices and then search within that refined category.
But then what happens is I get such a huge list of stuff that I can’t often reasonably make use of it. There’s an enormous amount of stuff on there, and people madly advertise by putting every single colour variation of every single dress or table into the system to try to show up.
So Search/Places still drives the inworld sales, because after seeing there might be something possibly interesting in a store from the huge grab bag you get from X St, you go inworld to that store and hone in on what the thing actually looks like because as in RL, the picture can be very different than the 3-D virtuality/reality.
I understand why LL did this, but I really don’t like some of the fine print I’m reading now that merely confirm my queasy feelings from the start.
o they will eventually merge X St with their own search, and therefore feature those merchants that decide to go on that service. Maybe not everyone will. Not everyone will want to sell an have the Lindens take a commission — it’s like being left out of the yellow pages, however, if you don’t agree to go on this system
o X st used to represent what GOM represented, an offshore “bank” of sorts where you Lindens were held and your dollars were held, apart from the SL system. If the Lindens unfairly banned you for any reason or no reason, you’d still be able to appeal to X St to cash you out or even transfer your account, whereas the Lindens would not cash you out.
o There is the freedom of information and expression of the independent forums — not trivial, for many reasons that have to do with a sort of “better business bureau” function to curb fraud — the sort of threads the Lindens automatically shut as “defamation of individual or group” which they now have unfortunately stealthed into their AR system
o And yes, when LL takes over one business and another, it’s unsettling, because it isn’t necessarly in the public interest, only in LL’s interest. They needed a revenue stream, they bought one. We needed an independent shopping site — we lost one.
Over time, Linden Lab will be able to make it much easier for merchants to sell their stuff via the web store (XStreet or whatever they rename it – maybe “SL Exchange”!).
Why?
1) New SL residents who want to buy or sell something on the web store won’t have to create a special XStreet account and then jump through hoops to get it connected with an SL account. The web store will just use their already-existing SL account.
2) Right now, to sell something SL object on XStreet, you have to put the item inside a special inworld “magic box” that will send it to whoever buys the item via the web. Linden Lab will be able to eliminate that hassle. Sellers will just check a “Sell on XStreet” box or similar (in the item’s properties). The seller could leave the item in their inventory. When someone buys the item via the web store, Linden Lab will just instruct XStreet Linden to send you a copy (straight from the asset servers, where everything really lives anyway).
3) It would be easy for LL to make the listings for each item on the web store available via the SL client.
Prokofy makes a good point that it can still be hard to find stuff in XStreet. I’ve spent a lot of time wading through pages and pages of listings in hopes of finding something good. I wonder if it’s possible to move the whole thing over to a more modern webstore platform.
On 01.21.09 Alberik Rotaru said:
I think Onrez is superior in most ways. I would hope that LL maintains Onrez functions like the vendors, the Onrez wallet, and the vastly superior web design. SLX always strikes me as a fine example of a web page from about 1995.
On the other hand, I am concerned about the future of the independent forums and of SLX’s currency exchange which is faster and cheaper than the official exchange.
A number of commenters have been bitterly critical of LL collecting sales commissions. I am not, provided that the commissions stay at a reasonable level.
LL needs a more diversified revenue base. Relying entirely on land tier means only that landowners are paying a large subsidy to non-landowners. In an ideal world, and I’d the last user to say LL always meets that standard, the sales commission revenue could be sued to capture a contribution from users who do not pay tier. Real world communities stopped trying to run on land taxes alone several hundred years ago. Sl may not be medieval but right now it uses a medieval fiscal model.
It should be noted that OnRez isn’t being integerated; they’re being shut down, completely. There are things behind the scenes going on here that the majority of SL users aren’t aware of– and it all points to Linden Lab trying to secure a monopoly in the virtual worlds field.
This isnt’ surprising considering that the OpenGrid project is quickly approaching viable stage. Linden Lab taking control of the two primary online markets is a guarantee that the Open Grid project (and specifically OpenLife) will not be able to access those resources.
Regarding the search engines: imo neither the Second Life nor XstreetSL search engines are all that spiffy. Frankly, they’re amateurish, lacking any degree of professionalism or adequate usability.
I believe both Onrez and XstreetSL had their place in the VR world. But now that they have been acquired by Linden Lab, based on past history I foresee them possibly becoming far less valuable overall. While Linden Lab touts all the things they plan to do “for the customer”… the fact that they are shutting down OnRez in less than a month combined with the knowledge of the potential they are shutting out (namely, those resources being open to other grids) reeks of monopoly… and greatly devaluates the potential of those companies.
On 01.21.09 Kurt Jiagu said:
The only people this is “merger “is good for is LL. We all know it is not a merger just a buy out to eliminate any competition and also a means to stop people making money without LL taking its usual percentage .First it was raised sim prices , now this , the trust LL once had is rapidly going. Soon it will it outprice itself in the metaverse and the only people to blame will be the money greedy decision makers within LL .
Great article as always Dusan. I agree as far as our ReactionGrid OpenSim grid is concerned we will provide scripts to allow users to create their own stores on the web and inworld hich we will link together.
It is, as you point out, a lower priority than stability, customer service, uptime & education of users on how to create their own works of art.
While we understand many users will want to buy rather than create we feel on our grid these users will be in far lower numbers than SL as we try to one on one help them to create.
We very much care that our “Gridizens” are able to make money but it is not what we feel will make our grid a success first. What is the point of our smaller but more niche grids if we don’t try to focus on the areas that SL doesn’t do well?
So I say to our users we will implement a light economy, but 2009 is about you being able to login and get creating on our grid.
Thanks again Dusan for the best commentary out there!
I do want to mention this phrase “erode the overall trust by users in “those openSim worlds”. Our grid has easier access to the owners than SL. You can call our offices with issues or Skype/MSN us. We are inworld and easy to find.
We are the first OpenSim grid to host a major event for Microsoft this May with over 90 attendees planned. We have been in business hosting sites, e-commerce and business applications for over 12 years as G2.
If you are concerned with trust and OpenSim you should visit our grid and meet the staff in person to find out if there is an issue for yourself.
We will in fact build better trust with our users than has ever been done in any grid you can mention, period!
No no no — OnRez Shop would be closed anyway, the Sheep don’t want that (and the client) any more, since they’re semi-abandoning development for SL anyway. February ‘09 was the deadline for the shutdown. LL probably just bought it to at least save what they could.
I agree with Prokofy, searching in XStreetSL is a pain, because we’re spoiled by Google XStreetSL doesn’t even allow complex searches like two words together (it searches by one OR the other). But, alas, that will now be easy to fix: feed Apotheus’ listings exported from XStreetSL into LL’s Google Appliance (the very same they use for Search > All), and there you go Instant Google-based search!
No, actually short-term, I think this is exciting: small content producers will definitely enjoy a huge increase in sales. It’s long-term where I worry. Webshop-based shopping will ultimately drive out the Big Brands in SL — the ones with thousands of products and millions of monthly transactions — since they’ll simply list their products on an in-world XStreetSL, and close down their sims. And all their shops. And tier down. They’ll just create content — like they do for IMVU, There.com, Kaneva, and others — and put it on the web, add some extra for classifieds and higher ranking, and that’s all. So, bye-bye in-world 3D shopping, which was one of the key features of Second Life. I cannot say how much this worries me. In-world shopping was not just about clicking on vendors — it meant browsing through shops and talking to people, it meant organising with friends to go to a shopping spree, it meant talking to owners and shop assistants to get recommendations, it meant returning to a space which was fun and enjoyable. Well, not to all, of course. But at least for a few millions.
How many sims are there which only have shops on them? Another 10,000? Well, my prediction is that they will all go away, only a fool will still keep an in-world shop and pay costly tier for it if you can simply sell it on a well-done web site…
XStreetSL and OnRez Shop, as well as the other independent webshops around there, never “hurt” commerce because they had marginal use. XStreetSL has about 1/4000th or 1/5000th of the content for sale in SL (OnRez Shop even less). The transactions from those sales, compared to what happened inside SL, were marginal, and thus, many of the major brands totally neglected to offer their products on the webshops. For small merchants, however, these were a blessing (less competition, and a large enough market, for no running costs, and no upfront investment).
Now imagine the exact reverse will happen: all content in SL being offered on the webshops because they’re integrated within the SL client. Bye-bye in-world shopping…
Mmmh. Another decision like this, and by the end of 2009, there will be little left on the grid… and maybe we’ll all be on Facebook, selling avatar clothes to wear on our own OpenSim-based sims at home
[...] the real world economy back in April of 2008. Reading similar thoughts about this evolution from Dunsan, Prokofy, and Wagner provide some good insight. I really wish I had posted my internal blog post [...]
On 01.21.09 Alberik Rotaru said:
LL really does have the feeblest public relations staff in the known universe. Assuming that Gwyn’s statements are accurate, which I do, the very first point LL should have made is that Onrez was about to fold and XStreet was barely making payroll. There’s a lot of wolfpacking at LL’s expense and most of us have been guilty of it at what time or another. LL’s failure to post pertinent facts just feeds the bloodlust.
Gwyneth, don’t panic. I don’t think anything will replace in-world shopping. Even if the big brands decide to not have their stuff in-world, they are about to get disappointed at the web sales.
I have been using Onrez and Xstreet for a while and the sales on both combined cannot match a 10th of what my sales are in-world. I assume it is like that for others too, well, depending on how much advertising they do in-world.
Personally I don’t mind this move at all, the only thing that worries me is the Linden Exchange. XStreet always gave about 30 dollars US MORE per 50k Lindens (I think that’s what it was last time I looked) then Linden Lab. SO that would be like…I am losing a good chunk of money here. Do I smell a price raise?
On 01.21.09 Eris said:
Second Life needs to be as complete a solution as possible. Web-based search and commerce should really have been a part of SL from the beginning, introduced with the inworld currency. Seems completely (and uncharacteristically) sensible to me that LL should have bought XStreet and onez to achieve this. Of course I’m concerned about what kind of mess they might make of it but generally this is good news.
It certainly is not going to kill inworld shopping – it’s likely to do the opposite. Linden will probably, long term, tether listing on the website to inworld presence – in other words to have an item listed on the website it will probably have to exist inworld (even if packaged up in a box). Linden’s business is running an immersive virtual world not a commerce website full of questionable content from anonymous alt accounts – they’ll likely use the commerce website to encourage greater land ownership and prim usage and not less.
There are potential UI benefits too – we should be able to select a product on the site and click a link that directs us right to that object inworld – not just the default landing point of the parcel it’s on, but exactly to the point inworld where we can, if practical, inspect it before buying.
We need to remember that Second Life is not some new virtual democracy, even if Linden formerly liked to pretend it was. You enjoy the ‘freedoms’ and ‘rights’ in SL that Linden see fit to grant you – it’s a commercial platform, increasingly separate to The Grid, that has to pay its way. Out of the SL project may come a wider and more open virtual world standard that will encompass more variety of use and expression – but right now SL itself is the dirty capitalist engine that’s driving us all there.
On 01.21.09 trefor Beardmore said:
Has a one time noobie at one time, i could do with all the help that’s going, it hard to understand all the concepts and all the technie words and still get my head around a 3D world, So for those oldies out there who have forgot what it’s like to be a noobie, here a quote from some one i was trying to teach basic keyboard skills too, “where the any key” this is a responds to a message that that used to pop saying “Press any key to continue” I know thing have move on since then but you get the same feeling when you first join Second Life, it’s a lot to take in for some people, so any help a noobie gets has to be good thing, just remember a noobie is a future business person in sl, and it has knock on effect. Remember to look at a bigger picture.
On 01.21.09 amombAmbush said:
Nothing seems to be easier than seeing someone whom you can help but not helping.
I suggest we start giving it a try. Give love to the ones that need it.
God will appreciate it.
Now LL is able to impose what is suitable or not in their grids and enduser wont’t have any choice anymore.
I guess we will see soon enough some kind of “black market” for the newly banned items.
I guess it’s just a matter of time before some items/skins will be deleted.
0.2e
SM
On 01.22.09 David Crespo said:
Hi Kyle G,
You mentioned about your companies excellent service and response. All good and very encouraging. Unless though, you can offer a true SLA, a real team who can bug fix this is not going to fly long term. You cannot as an Service Provider be expected to support the code, this has to come from a deeper source.
This is a very swift move by the Lindens, but nonetheless this will not shut down in-world shopping, which was is and will continue to be one of the most interesting activities in SL. Surely companies like metaLIFE(http://meta-LIFE.net) and Hippo(http://www.hippo-technologies.co.uk/) will benefit – cause they offer advanced in-world networked vending systems, that allow management of items in one place. These systems will replace the gap created by the loss of OnRez vending system.
For some time I thought SL will never go this way and leave e-commerce for the residents to handle, but well they are trying to create a unified system controlled by a single entity(LL) that handles all persons activities in the metaverse. Buying these sites – is a natural step in creation of such a system! we will just have to wait and see where that leads us to:
- more freedom and empowerment
- or more constraints and obstacles to go around( and formation of black markets as someone mentioned above)
Time will tell
On 01.23.09 xonox said:
does that mean xstreetsl will finally remove all stolen content sold there? nowadays a huge part of the xstreetsl “premade builders packs” and “buisness in a box” sold there is stolen items, its ridiculous that xstreetsl is so uncaring about it.
[...] the best source of stories of all is you. So when you’re done with your homework, come on in, I’d like to show you something, and listen, and make some new stories [...]
[...] consider Coming of Age in Second Life by Tom Boellstorff one of the five pillars of virtual world literature. It is a foundation study that will act as a de facto primary source for not just anthropologic [...]
As a former USAF member and son of Air Corps. (WWII) veteran and with two sons in the Air Force, this story caught my attention. Although the military has been known to engineer things, this guide concept for how to respond to blog posts is a really good concept. Any company that uses blogs as part of their social marketing strategy should have this type of tool as a guideline, to help their bloggers handle blog responses in a consistent and positive way.
Excellent post, Dusan. Great questions and fascinating answers.
I’m glad to see the point about “real life” vs. “Second Life.” I’ve always disagreed with the notion that these are two different, or separate, lives, and I dislike using the term “real life.” At first I settled on “first life,” but that’s a misnomer, too. As I write in “What Is Second Life?” (under my SL name Alas Zerbino), SL seems to be just another extension of one’s whole life. If we talk about “work life” and “writing life,” then to be consistent, we should talk about “SL life.” The use of “SL vs. RL” sets up a separation that, in my mind, doesn’t truly exist — plus it furthers the misconception that one is real and the other is not.
Anyway, I enjoyed the entire post and now I MUST read Tom’s book (which I’ve known about, but never got around to reading). Thanks!
Joan/Alas
On 01.24.09 Alberik Rotaru said:
The sl/rl thing frustrates me also, but not as much as the fantasy that SL is ‘post-atomic’ as though the interplay of photons on a computer screen were not itself part of the atomic universe.
Excellent post – got this book for Christmas and the interview is informative.
On 01.27.09 Coldfire Nightfire said:
Scratch Rocks , people have the impression that it is just for simple things. I say you have to think outside the box , this is an amazing tool for SL and every builder should have this. Simple to use but vwery effective , just the way thigs should be :} Nice work
Thanks, Dusan, for a nice interview. I am happy I read Tom’s book. Part of me lives in SL to enhance my life and part of me is there as an explorer. I am not trained in anthropology, but I appreciated how Tom described SL in a scientific framework. He also provided some insights, such as the “techne/episteme” mentioned here, or the “creative capitalism” that I have often mulled over since finishing the book.
Now maybe you tekkie kiddies can see just what you’re wrought with your MMORPG/Well/Gamerz/Slashdot forums type of culture.
Trolling? THAT is what criticizing the government is going to be called now? If I don’t like how they’re doing the war in Iraq or Afghanistan, I’m going to be a *troll*? Huh?
See, this is why I have fought this shit for the last eight years in online communities — because it was clear to me as long ago as 1999 when I first saw Will Wright’s invention, the Sims offline, that we were seeing a massive cultural shift that ultimately would affect the government, the entire national structures and all our lives.
And so it has. A national institution — the Air Force — is now throwing aside the First Amendment, and simultaneously, while pretending to be open and transparent and accountable and timely and new media thisnthat blah blah blah, is now throwing out freedom of speech to criticize, calling that “trolling” or “misguided” and railroading people into “no response” or “concurrency” at best.
Thanks a lot, male tekkie nerds who created this insolent online culture — and the control mechanisms to deal with it through concepts like “trolling” — and brought it to us now in our national affairs. Not surprising that the virus and mind memes leapt from MMORPG/online Digg type culture right into the armed forces, where the same kind of controlling and cynical mentality prevails from the same kinds of people.
It will all be much bigger and harder to fight now — it won’t be long before we begin to see the First Amendment truly eroded in the name of “fighting trolls” — but at least it’s out in the open, and don’t say I didn’t warn you.
On 01.27.09 Prokofy said:
Then Philip, if that’s true, why is it that you have Lindens dedicated to serving the educational committee, and Lindens dedicated to serving the enterprise community, and Lindens dedicated to serving the “solutions providers” community, but when it comes to inworld business — content creators, merchants, and land dealers — we only find out what Linden Lab is up to when one of us has been turned into your lunch. There are no Lindens dedicated — openly — to inworld business.
Only Lindens — stealthily — devoted to picking out *some* residents at the expense of others, entering into *secret* negotiations with them — and GOMing them and eating them up.
On 01.27.09 Tanker said:
Prokofy said:
Trolling? THAT is what criticizing the government is going to be called now? If I don’t like how they’re doing the war in Iraq or Afghanistan, I’m going to be a *troll*? Huh?
Ummm, no Prokofy, that statement is actually a “troll.” It is a statement tossed out to provoke a response with anger or incivility, often with only peripheral bearing on the topic at hand. It often also includes personal attacks, rather than wrestling with the actual points presented.
so…
“Thanks a lot, male tekkie nerds who created this insolent online culture….”
is also a “troll.”
If you would examine the flow-chart, you would see that this pertains to an Air Force individual responding to a post on an independent blog. The individual Air Force member is asked, basically, to not get into a flame war with anyone, or to respond intemperately to stupidity. Why? It has nothing to do with First Amendment rights, and everything to do with helping folks make a good decision that reflects well on their employer and their profession.
I agree with Valiant – very well executed. Better than I would expect, actually. Bravo Zulu.
On 01.28.09 ichabod Antfarm said:
The flowchart doesn’t provide a very substantive definition of “Troll”. It associates “Troll” with “bashing and degrading others” which is the accepted internet definition for “Trolling”. The problem is that there is no objective way to determine what “bashing and degrading others” actually entails. This is the point. If I make a post criticizing the Air Force (or any other government agency), am I bashing and degrading it? Some people might say yes and some people might say no. That is a fact of human subjectivity and it is pointless to protest it; however, should we not expect our governments to operate somewhat more objectively than, say, me when I have just woken up and haven’t had my morning cup of tea and the kids are banging off the walls and driving me crazy?
I understand what the flowchart is trying to do and superficially I agree with the intent; however, that the concept of “Troll” has been officially incorporated into government policy is disturbing to me because, at bottom, “Troll” is really just the voice of the Other.
On 01.29.09 ichabod Antfarm said:
Speaking of education, the following is called a tangent. Did you catch the Fifth Estate last night? The whole hour was devoted to the pitfalls of Second Life relationships. We all come across as geeked out emotional retards. It was a very refreshing take on SL. A whole hour introducing Second Life to the Great Washed and they never once mentioned that you can rez a prim and make a world.
Sorry for the hijack but I saw “Canadian” and “Second Life” in the title of your post and figured “close enough”
This reaction reminds me of a photoshop I saw on FARK.com yesterday that said something that I will adapt a bit, “blog comments are a lot like being in the Special Olympics, even if you win, you are still retarded.”
I am sure the USAF flow chart could make more scholarly definitions of the types of faulty arguments and statements, but I think they did a decent enough job of getting across the idea that while some blogs and their comments make very good points and bring value, others are driven more by attention whore motivations, and we need to sift the dross from the gold.
On 01.29.09 ichabod Antfarm said:
I keep trying to construct my identity but, every time I edit something, the dreaded “personality drift” happens and I revert back to me.
Identity Construction! I have a difficult enough time keeping my coffee table from sinking into the floor!
Having said that, I do want to contribute so I am going to make a boxed set of Simulacra and Simulation and, um, Lacan’s Écrits – just to get things started.
[...] Rheta Shan’s entry to Dusan Writer’s Viewer Interface Contest – a contest that, as detailed here and here, is aimed at developing proposals for a newbie friendly revision of the Second Life client [...]
[...] to present their entries to the judges before they decide on the results of the contest – go to Dusan Writer’s blog for an announcement of the panel. I am very grateful to Dusan, who has been an absolute sweetheart [...]
[...] entry to Dusan Writer’s Viewer Interface Contest – a contest that, as detailed here and here, is aimed at developing proposals for a newbie friendly revision of the Second Life client [...]
[...] To my great surprise, I made it into the final selection, among such illustrious names as Jacek Antonelli, Damien Fate, McCabe Maxsted and Rick van der Wal [...]
On 01.29.09 ichabod Antfarm said:
The problem with your analogy, pais, is that commenting on blogs isn’t zero sum. Well, it isn’t always zero sum. Agree or disagree, it’s all grist for the mill I like to call civil society. Anyway, I have an affinity for Trolls. Ever since Ibsen.
[...] yet another development I read on Dusan Writer’s blog that Professor Luciano Floridi, a philosophy prof at the University of Hertfordshire just north of [...]
[...] looks like I ended first in the SL Interface Contest finals. My heartfelt congratulations go to Jacek Antonelli and Rick van Wal, aka Digado, whom I [...]
[...] 2, 2009 by piensl A través del blog de Dusan Writer’e Metaverse nos enteranmos que los equipos de debates de las universidades de St. John y la de Vermont Lawrence [...]
[...] the Roadmap and now he’s off with a bunch of other people with really long Malcolm Gladwell meme-y hair getting ready to bring Wello into closed beta (in weeks, he says) and he presented in his OWN [...]
On 02.02.09 Alberik Rotaru said:
‘phallus’ is actually a Latinised version of the Greek ‘phallos’ so ‘phallos’ and ‘phalloi’ are prolly to be preferred over ‘phallus’ and ‘phalli’. ‘phalli’ works, but it is not correct to speak of flying phalli unless the flying items are engorged. For the record the Latin plural of ‘penis’ (which actually meant ‘tail’, not penis) is ‘penes’. There is no Latin plural for ‘virus’.
You either use ‘phalluses’, ‘penises’ and ‘viruses’ or, if you cannot live without Classicist pretensions, you must at least get your pretensions right. So there…
[...] DusanWriter´s nos trae una intersante entrvista con el antropólogo Tom Boellstorff, autor del muy comentado libro Coming of Age in Second Life. El entrevistado hace una introducción donde plantea que; I consider Coming of Age in Second Life by Tom Boellstorff one of the five pillars of virtual world literature. It is a foundation study that will act as a de facto primary source for not just anthropologic research in virtual worlds, but other disciplines as well.. Coincido plenamente con esta apreciación ya que este libro representa una mirada seria, rigurosa e inquisitiva Second Life y a lo que significa en diversos órdens de la vida social, educativa y cultural de los que alli residimos. Les sugiero que lean la entrevista y de seguro que compren el libro. No se arrepentirán. [...]
Greetings all! M Linden here. I’d like to wish you, your families, friends, partners and loved-ones a happy and healthy New Year. As we come to the end of the year, I thought I’d share some of the wonders of Second Life I’ve encountered over the past….
Yes, that roadmap, which never had very diverse input, needs re-doing completely.
Yes, Forterra is a show-off. But the USG is in SL too, dozens of agencies.
I don’t get this concept of Twinity as a “mirror” world when each person logging on can chose to make a room in repeat versions of a London or a Kiev, so I don’t see how it mirrors one real city when anyone can make one. I haven’t gotten Twinity to work very well yet so I can’t tell you more.
It seems to me that anything someone dubs as a mirror world will instantly either be terribly boring like social studies homework or will be marked up and changed by users.
On 02.04.09 Prokofy Neva said:
You don’t need to hire consultants and fancy security companies, you just need to put on autoreturn to 1 and make sure that you have given permissions to someone in the group to eject avatars and return non-group objects. It’s not rocket science, it’s like putting a filter on your email.
I used to have a more detailed help list of events organizing on my blog, can’t find the link now, but I had at least one point that is HUGELY important, and that is provide very clearly visible instructions inworld, and vocally, as to how to get the movie screens and sound working. This vexes people no end, and you have to spell it out in baby steps with troubleshooting tips.
On 02.04.09 Prokofy Neva said:
What I hate about big-ass expenso studies like this is that the people doing them do not know anything about these worlds, haven’t been in them, except possibl superficially, and have no real networks to really do serious investigative work, or even of the investigative tabloidy work like the Herald.
And they come in and demand people give them exhaustive interviews for free.
Hell, no, cut me in on your big-ass grant or I don’t play.
On 02.04.09 IYan Writer said:
9. Hope that SL will work at the time of the event.
While the grid / logins are down fairly rarely, Murphy dictates that it will happen exactly when you want to have an event. Happened to me twice..
Very interesting stuff. Personally, I’ve taken a completely different approach to producing a mixed reality event (or being an aspect of one).
For me, getting the right people was my top priority, and pretty much all I think about.
Having the right RL staff and the right virtual staff in place, where everyone “gets it”…. that is what has made my mixed reality events successful.
We’ve partnered with a number of groups now to bring RL conferences into SL. You offer some good advice in your column. We handled much of what you describe above, the in world parts that tend to be mysterious to the RL group. The RL group doesn’t have to learn about things such as in world security or how to distribute conference materials in a virtual world. We have that all set.
The potential weakness, though, tends to be the connection to SL. Not all conference facilities have wired in internet, instead relying on WiFi and the wireless system can be stress by the number of conference participants using it. You can do any number of trial runs/tests of your set up, then as the event starts and the audience members start connecting via WiFi to check their email and you start having issues.
Or, my personal favorite, “…where that idea came from so I know whether to attribute any merit to it or not based on who you are.” As I have said before, in a business context or any forum ideas and art should stand on their own merit.
I thought about this a bit also when I was prompted for my real name before participation in a business think community.
Wow – nice post Mo – will read in full later, but I get the quick sense of it.
Separate topic, but I really believe that it’s important not to confuse anonymity with avatar identity. Associating with an avatar identity does not necessarily correlate directly to anonymity. It CAN but it doesn’t necessarily. You can have an avatar identity that you ‘partition’ from actual identity, but it doesn’t mean you don’t provide the link as a “if needed” thing.
What’s interesting is the question of why people want to use a “real name”. Anyways – complex stuff, but thanks for pointing to your post. Your blog is a must read!
Perhaps it’s because I am a bear of simple mind (like Pooh), but I find it impossible to disassociate my identities no matter where they serve (virtual or real or in the many computer systems my identity necessarily resides as part of the modern world). Yes, my avatar has a different name in Second Life but a rose by any other name still smells, well, like a rose.
As a poet I view the landscapes and avatars of Second Life as poetry and as the living marks made by creative souls. I wander around and understand that whatever I see is just the beginning of something new and yet something that is in line with the historical progression of a long line of visionary endeavors that began with the artists who left us the ancient cave paintings.
About liability and litigation and etc, it’s sad that a business can no longer be run on a handshake and a gentlemen’s agreement. But this is the way of the world.
On 02.04.09 Kwame Oh said:
Thanks for the post, as it continues a discussion that I feel will run for a while yet. for my part I feel the whole concept of virtual worlds is moving away from where it was say two maybe three years ago to more a platform which adds to, rather than is separate from our everyday lives.
Had I known what I know today, and if I could have afforded it I would in fact have taken my real name as my avatar name, as I have done in Twinity, as my feelings are like most aspects of some parts of our organic business lives, which remember are a part of our social lives, the final document is usually signed after the business lunch, where we all get to meet to get those final visual clues from each other, we then go on to have those company picnics with our families etc “grin”
On trust issues although we have had a few scares with so called banking frauds, and some of the dodgy deals done within secondlife, as the stakes get higher, I do fear we are yet to see “the big one” its just a mater of time and then maybe we will revisit this topic in a different light.
I share my real name/identity via my LinkedIn profile, with those I want to do business with. This type of disclosure is likely more important to people/businesses that are new to virtual worlds, as it allows them to quickly establish their “brands” value.
Doing business without the benefit of legal identities, has the potential to leave you vulnerable to a whole host of problems such as:
With respect to contracts; Benjamin Franklin said “an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.” In business, a single business dispute can ruin you. Written contracts are the “ounce of prevention” that can eliminate costly disputes. Although it may happen in the future, I know of no precedent for avatars to legally execute or defend enforceable contracts.
The tax issue is the growing 300lb (soon to be 800lb) gorilla in the room. It won’t be long before taxing authorities compel the reporting of Virtual World income. I consider it to already be an ethical requirement. If you want to deduct Virtual World expenses, you had better be prepared to identify the recipient, be it a business or individual, of your payments.
Copyright and IP issues are another area of growing concern. What if someone doing work for you “unintentionally” “borrows” IP from another company, goes MIA and the IP owner sues you? How do you subpoena someone you don’t know for your defense?
Protecting your ideas via non-disclosure agreements (NDAs)is another area where real identities are required. If you don’t require NDAs of people who do work for you, you are asking to have your ideas & Trade Secrets stolen.
I realize many of these arguments are philosophically distasteful. I regret that “business can no longer be run on a handshake and a gentleman’s agreement.” Whether we like it or not the reality is that knowing people’s real identities is important in today’s business world, even when that world is “Virtual.”
There are certainly more questions than answers for this topic. SL certainly is a prime place to explore these questions. However, as you say, they are not new – we have many other mechanisms to create different identities or nuanced persona without SL.
Thinking back to my first SL experiences, I quickly got the message that in SL, people tended to avoid introducing themselves with things from their RL, such as name, age, sex, location, education, occupation, and maybe what car we drive as we typically do in informal social settings.
When I learned it was uncool in SL to tell those types of demographic parameters about myself, I had two realizations/reactions:
1. I realized how I had gotten used to my identity based on these things, and I almost felt handicapped to not have them if not for identity, then for small talk. This is one thing that led me to being a kid, because I was faced with the truth that I had confused my Self with my RL roles, something that, as a kid, I promised myself I would not do.
2. I then found the challenge of asking myself *who I really am* at my core with all the other trappings if identity stripped away. (paging mr. zen on line one… to take this call and receive the truth, you must release your hold on what you think it is…) And then, back in SL: given a basic cartoonish avatar shape and text chat, how would I project my true personality into that world for the other persons to grok and interact with?
[...] thing seems to be resonating for others, too. Dusan came at it from a number of directions in a post today, which evoked a number of comments, including this one from [...]
Another excellent post, Dusan. Thank you for challenging assumptions and thinking out loud about identity. These are some of the very same questions I have been struggling with as virtuality and reality become more and more enmeshed. My SL identity (and thoughts, experiences, creations, etc.) are as equally valid and important to me as my “real life” identity. It actually hurts when people brush off my SL persona as just being some sort of fantasy…
On 02.05.09 Kwame Oh said:
Funny how I said this would be a topic that would not go away, and behold was plurked this todayhttp://www.districtadministration.com/viewarticle.aspx?articleid=1852
Not quite the “big one” and not sure if it will be appealed, but this will be a landmark case in days to come.
On 02.05.09 Kwame Oh said:
Having hosted a few more social than conference events, I must agree with both Doubledown, on staff issues both inworld, and organic, and with Sioban on the Wifi issues.
Have not yet found solution for supply, of WiFi for Organic users in venue, as the last meetup my system slowly came to a crawl after I could not refuse password for punters to hook up.
But like all things we plug away by trial and error till we strike a balance that works.
On 02.05.09 glen said:
My favorite line from the video: “the efficiency of the rocket launcher team was very seriously impaired” … they gave rocket launchers to guys they’d just given a dose of LSD?
[...] yet another development I read on Dusan Writer’s blog that Professor Luciano Floridi, a philosophy prof at the University of Hertfordshire just north of [...]
Humm looks like the convergence of Avatar and Organics is to be laid out if the EU and other Governmental bodies have anything to do with it, and considering we in the EU had VAT added to our costs have no reason to believe otherwise
The degree of separation between virtual and actual worlds, sometimes known as the magic circle, was always wildly exaggerated. Despite all the exciting stuff in the TOS that claims to place LL beyond the reach of any court or consumer law, when those terms have gone to court they’ve been caught short. LL probably has the most fire-breathing TOS, the courts have pretty much disregarded the wilder clauses of the TOS. The breadth of LL’s claims is one reason the courts have consistently ruled against them when their TOS has been considered.
There is a libertarian mythology in virtual worlds that is usually built on a total misunderstanding of the history of the US frontier. (See Mitch Kapor’s good-bye and thanks for all the fish speech for a classic example) The frontier was a government enterprise from beginning to end and one where the natural rights to the land involved quite a lot of gunplay to persuade the existing inhabitants that the frontier no longer belonged to them.
The frontier was not a blank sheet where the rugged individualist wrote his own story. The frontier was pretty much a place where the rugged individualist lobbied Washington furiously for the protection of the US cavalry, subsidies from the US treasury, and a privileged position on the railway network so he could seek rents from his competitors.
Magic circle claims pretty much come down to the same thing. Which is a long way from who am I but then who am I is a big question.
On 02.07.09 Pamala Clift said:
Greetings from one philosopher to another. I have indeed been running The Roadside Philosopher’s group for over two years discussing the ethics and relationships that develop in world and why we think the way we do in here. It is a first person group only, because of all the philosophers in existence we are the first that have the virtual world as a metaphor for life. We share our thoughts openingly and beat up all sorts of topics. Would love to discuss it with you some time. I am also in academics.
On 02.09.09 Prokofy Neva said:
I find Beth Noveck’s concepts very disturbing and I’ve been a long-time critic of this heavily-educated and aggressive “thought leader”.
She briefly flashed in SL for a time a few years ago when she opened a much-ballyhooed “Democracy Island” that had a few overrated events and then suffered 0-20 traffic ever after, despite hosting the Creative Commons licenser (sigh, another bad idea, that), the notary public (made by a resident-turned-Linden who never stayed in the community to make his invention really work meaningfully), and Hiro Pendragon’s devices to meet in the sky.
I find it hugely troubling that she has slipped into the meme stream of the Obama team.
She, Clay Shirky, and others of the “personal democracy” gang represent a school of thought that is very much about privileging the Internet-made group over the individual, and essentially engineering an end-run around elected representatives and democratic institutions in the name of “transparency”. It puts the unaccountable coders and social media gurus in charge and makes government accessible to those…with a DSL line and a high-traffic blog.
Go to the definitive article she has done about her theories here:
The horror comes from glib cybertechno pronouncements like this one:
“Avatars are “public” characters, personalities designed to function in a public and social capacity. Avatars think and act as members of a community, rather than as private individuals. Having to construct an avatar in a virtual world not only allows me to see myself but it demands that I design a personage for interaction with others”.
Um, no. I will fight this tooth and nail — so will others.
On 02.09.09 Prokofy Neva said:
I have to chuckle when I read this because I wonder how it ties into that other big-deal standardization push going on now with the MMOXies (formerly the AWGroupies who now invaded IETF). If you don’t call it a world, but call it a “3-D visualization infrastructure,” do you get to play different standards?
And this idea that it’s evil if just one company does something because “nobody owns the planet,” well, ok, but…why isn’t it evil if just one group of opensourceniks do it? I mean, why does being “open source” somehow confer a blessing on it? Why does *this guy* and not some *other guy* get to declare his project is THE standards-based 3-D thingie?
On 02.09.09 Prokofy Neva said:
No, no, no and NO.
this is NOT true: “online, your reputation accrues first in the communities you join, and extends from there.”
This is NOT your best post and this is what I do NOT like about you.
Implying that the avatar is something constructed by “thecommunity” (whatever the hell that is) or something constructed “online” (whatever that really means) implies that the individual has now lost his ground. He goes online, and loses his rights. He only gains them if he gives his “true identity”.
In fact, there is a subtle but real pressure to provide your real name. Metanomics shouldn’t even have to require this of people, but it *is* considered the “right thing to do” if you hope to be “noticed” and “taken seriously”. That’s a shame, because there was once a higher vision for our world, but of course, it’s been trampled, and Metanomics has been very much part of that trampling, hauling in game gods with real name and RL reputatoins as game gods as the early guests, and setting the bar there for “realness”.
I’m sorry, but my reputation does not depend on what a bunch of anonymous creeps think about me in a stupid game. It doesn’t depend on what even right-thinking thoughtful adults in an augmented reality think about me. That is, there might be some “reputational” field that has this or that validity or no validity, depending on your values.
But so often reputation is in fact then power — power of the community to control that constructed self. And that I simply refuse to have any part of — and in fact, a lot of people implicity reject it by taking on an anonymous avatar in the first place. They simply don’t wish to cede the shaping or reputationalizing of their “real selves” to that horde online that can be so insolent and cruel. And they are right to do so.
Alberik Rotaru is writing tripe. One doesn’t need to idealize cowboys and their venturing to respect the individual and his ruggedness and private property. To imply that land rights only came from the barrel of the gun is to swing to the other extreme of revisionist history. This silly socialist notion that settlers are merely subsidized rent-seekers simply belies the historical record. There are plenty of ordinary families moving into ordinary places and setting them where they don’t have to shoot the natives or even find any natives. No need for exaggeration.
Everything depends on how you first perceive the world — even as a world at all, or whether it is a mere “3-d visualization platform” as the guy says about his toy in your other post.
If it is a world — a brand new world, a better world — then people might wish to construct better, separate, more free identities for that world through their avatar, where they need not be bound by the associations and prejudices that accrue to geography and gender.
But the world is really quite eroded as a concept, and Metanomics, with its meta-meddling has contributed to this process, of course, and you can only look properly cool and business like if you can prove you don’t immerse but only meta-ize and augment or only consult ABOUT or write ABOUT immersion, but never immerse.
Then, that sort of tattered world becomes more and more shrill about demanding credentials.
As for you “really trying to run an inworld business”. I seem to have forgotten that you do have a prefab business. I remember sort of stumbling on it. It seems to me, however, that this is merely a kind of testing device, a hobby, not really a way to earn a living, just a sort of “getting your hands wet” sort of thing, as you have your other real business, of which VWs are only a part.
It’s true that in SL, when it comes to work, say on a build, or sharing a sim project, the only thing that counts is their inworld reputation for performing, delivering, being can-do, etc. etc. And that’s indeed how people are judged.
On 02.09.09 Prokofy Neva said:
Philip Dick is full of shit. I’m sorry, but people like him are always grandly pronouncing on the need to change and give up and be destroyed and…it’s always *other* people, not the person who has had that grand vision. How did Philip Dick change and what did he give up and could he report back to us now that he’s destroyed? Well?
>to me, Second Life is not a separate world
Then you’re an augmentationist, not an immersionist, and a platformist. Deal with it. Why this attempt to get street cred as an immersionist?!
Second Life is a world — that is, it may be many worlds to many people, but it is a separate place for the overwhelming majority of people who spend more than an hour in it. They readily adapt to the geographical contiguity and conform to the constructs of living inside these boxes. They don’t pause every five seconds and tell them selves they are merely pushing pixels on a screen and augmenting something in real life that takes precedence. Their attention is pinned. Why is that so hard to accept? SL is an economy of attention. For the time that people are absorbed in Facebook sending links and adjusting pictures and whatnot, they are in that world, which is a lighter and flatter world, but still a place “out there” where their attention is pinned.
To be truly entertaining or captivating, stories can’t shout out constantly “look, I’m a story!
“. And that’s why you can’t get too meta- with this concept.
I said 9 years ago in an interview about the Sims offline that the incredible thing about that game was that it was revolutionary — Will Wright had made a revolutoinary machine — it took the narrative engine out of the hands of Hollywood and the TV networks and put it into the hands of ordinary people. It was like the Kodak camera. For the people treating SL as a meta, tweaking its images and scenes like Bettina, the world becomes the world of *that* (one kind of world, itself). Or *that* plus plurk. THe NPIRL gang bears the relationships to the world of SL as roughly Russian emigres or American expatriotis in Paris in the 1930s to their countries and their arts.
Kevin Kelly and his ridiculous communistic generatives-out-of-nowhere is my least favourite tekkie pundit on the Internet. We don’t *have* to have a collective identity, for one. Whose collective?!
[...] to not see shadows I thought I found a way to enable shadows. Unfortunately, I didn’t read everything. In debug settings, set both RenderUseFBO and [...]
On 02.10.09 Alberik Rotaru said:
Alberik Rotaru would indeed be writing tripe if he’d written what you claim, Prokofy. What I did write about was the trope of the frontier as a blank space devoid of both government and previous inhabitants and the way that historical nonsense is so often linked to cyberspace libertarianism.
You would do better, Prokofy, to avoid filling your mouth when tripe when you have already filled it with your foot.
No, Alberik, at least have the courage of your anti-Western convictions.
Here’s what you wrote, again, in case you forgot — I don’t have my foot in my mouth but you may have your head somewhere else:
“The frontier was not a blank sheet where the rugged individualist wrote his own story. The frontier was pretty much a place where the rugged individualist lobbied Washington furiously for the protection of the US cavalry, subsidies from the US treasury, and a privileged position on the railway network so he could seek rents from his competitors.”
In fact, for that rugged individualist, it *was* a blank slate in his perception, if nothing else. And it was an *actual blank slate* in many places and instances because it was not all cowboys vs. Indians and the brave calvary riding to the rescue as you imagine — you merely go in the opposite direction with the caricature.
You’ve also introduced this sort of funny anti-American meme of the pioneer as lobbying furiously for subsidies, army protection and a cushy spot by the railroad — it’s a caricature. You can’t explain complex social and political phenomena in this sort of jargonistic glib leftist revisionist fashion — it’s just too simplistic and silly.
In fact, the cyberspace libertarianism very much draws on those motifs of rugged individualism and pioneering that in fact are legitimate and actual and not the imperialist blah-blah that you try to posit. Cyberspace pioneers may have gotten their start in government institutions and government-funded universities, but they certainly didn’t remain there for long. In the long span of 100 years, even I am an early pioneer of the Internet and I didn’t have any government funding nor did I look for a cushy spot by the railroad — or even the telehub.
Your notion that American history is “nonsense” is a marker for a) your anti-Americanism or b) your own extremist political position within the American scene.
On 02.11.09 Alberik Rotaru said:
Prok, Prok, Prok, sending you up is not the defining parameter of leftism. I am as atounded to find myself drafted into the left as most of my leftwing friends would be to see it done.
Thanks for confirming that cyberspace libertarianism draws on the trope of the frontier as I originally argued. the cyberspace libertarianism very much draws on those motifs of rugged individualism and pioneering It is unclear to me how you managed to discover the rest of your more than faintly overstated allegations in my brief comment.
If you are going to insist on sticking out your tongue while grinding your teeth together I am not sure why the rest of us have to watch. It is anatomically interesting but it cannot be comfortable for you.
On 02.11.09 Tateru Nino said:
At least two pizza companies I can think of made press-releases that they were going to allow ordering pizzas in SL, delivered to atomic addresses.
Neither of these projects ever went ahead, insofar as I’m aware, but if you google about you can find media reports that treat them as fait accompli – as if they had already happened.
Oooh, now here’s a new field of theological inquiry – is there “sin” in Second Life? And if so, what is the nature of the sin? If you “dispose” of an avatar, are you a murderer? And if there IS going to be a Second Coming, might not “He” return in a Second Life?
Inquiring minds need to know!
On 02.12.09 ichabod Antfarm said:
“And if there IS going to be a Second Coming” I think that would constitute a Second Second Coming and it’s always been my understanding that men can’t do that.
There is an advantage to ordering pizza from the web rather than over a phone. For one, you don’t have to worry about being put on hold. I am usually put on hold in the first few moments when I call in for pizza. Also, a web site makes it easier to see all the options and take as much time as you like without annoying staff.
Now, website versus virtual world is a bit different. If I got a virtual pizza or branded content from the restaurant to take into inventory every time i ordered a real pizza, that may be cool. However, rite now, there are many user interface design issues that need to be addressed before virtual worlds overcome the web.
The “Science Center” group in SL maintains a calendar of science-related events, a database of science-related places, and other SL+science things. All of that can be found via their wiki at http://science-center-group.wikispaces.com/
Greetings all! M Linden here. I’d like to wish you, your families, friends, partners and loved-ones a happy and healthy New Year. As we come to the end of the year, I thought I’d share some of the wonders of Second Life I’ve encountered over the past….
On 02.13.09 infocyde said:
Oscar Wilde said, “Give a man a mask and he’ll tell you the truth”. I think that sums it all. We are what we do, what we think, what we say, and what we don’t do, think, and say. The setting is just a variable that changes. I hope most of us don’t ever find out who our true selves really are, as typically it isn’t as flattering as one would wish. A good way to shy away from that knowledge is to control the variable of setting.
I think that SL is like a small country where it’s tourism is at its crossroads. As more people come over, there are bound to be diverse interests, and as possible, SL would want to catch them. SL used to have a niche, but as it grows and evolves to embrace a wider audience, these changes are bound to happen. It’s bound to happen, but yes, hopefully the culture and the “human touch” you mention would still linger and not fade into oblivion.
The web page redesign shown above looks nice. Much better than the flickr slideshow in black knockoff they did previously.
On 02.14.09 Kwame Oh said:
well quoted infocyde, though I cannot agree on not finding self, as most pain in ones life is that constant fleeing from self, which perhaps explains the need for some to hide within the mask that is their avatars.
It pains me to see as usual we get an interesting topic on the go, and again the same old coven of nay sayers chip in with personal comments, but hey such is the nature of freedom of speech.
Alberik you are right about the nature of TOS, I was recently asked to write note card to hand to new residents, and was told “we need more fire and brimstone to deter the griefers” to which I answered this means sod all in so far as the note card is concerned, but maybe we try appealing to the majority in a human manner.
My view has and always will be that somewhere along this magical mystery tour we are on, in so far as Virtual technology is concerned some have taken it upon themselves to not see beyond the pioneering nature, and have in my view taken up the “rabbit in headlight’s stance” because of fear of change.
I welcome the input of the real life governing bodies in this trip we take, as the next hurdle we face is the trust and credibility issue “is the avatars word his bond?”
Again I thank all for their part in this debate
your humble servant “grin”
On 02.14.09 Kwame Oh said:
I leapt over here with visions of a conversation about sexual positions advocated by Thomas Aquinas, and was not disappointed by ichabod’s comments though my dear keep looking, there are some “wicked grin”
As an African when it come’s to missionary work, we more than most have seen this machinery in its full glory, and I look at this move with suspicion, but also with personal interest as it shows the alignment of the real world and virtual is getting closer .
Hi Dusan! Great post for placing some things into perspective, but I feel it is rather odd you jump to the conclusion these changes have nothing to do with the new VP’s.
Kingdon gathered a new team, a team that would support user-oriented thinking; the most essential change we’ve seen from Linden Labs in well over 5 years. For the first time it seems like they are trying to understand user behavior and adapt to it, facilitating individuals, instead of looking at ‘the community’ as one big soup they could force to think in certain ways.
If anything the existing homepage shows this most clearly of all and recognize the diversity of the community and SL’s flexibility to many different things to many different people. The pods represent individuals, but part of something larger than just you. At the same time it creates a smooth transition from 2D to 3D – the core function of the of the SL website.
The blog changes are facilitating and also recognizing individuals rather than ‘the user’ as a mass – facilitating each of these groups to find their own niche of ‘relevance’ within the platform of SL.
All in all I am really happy to see this new course SL has taken, and is showing some dedication to its new course in the big revamps in – and outside the company. User centered innovations have proven to be much, much more effective than technology driven innovations, and I currently see this change in a lot of the Lab’s decisions – which is a good thing for VW’s as a whole.
Rick – agreed…I guess I was just poking fun a little – I mean, how many VPs does it take to screw in a light bulb kind of thing. But I totally agree – the focus on user experiences and paths rather than “Oh, we need windlight to make things shiny” is an encouraging development for the Grid.
On 02.14.09 Alberik Rotaru said:
It’s usually a fairly bad idea to use the etymology of a word to try and establish its meaning. Nevertheless, this could be an exception. ‘avatar’ is from Sanskrit and describes the relationship between a Hindu god and a descent a avatarati of the god into human form. A Hindu avatar is generally thought of as all god, but not all of the god. The usual language we use in SL implies a much greater degree of separation than the Sanskrit word would bear. My SL avatar is obviously all me, but I very much doubt that he is all of me.
Excellent analogy, and quite telling as to why people’s reactions to Second Life are so mixed.
It’s quite true that if any company — not just Linden Lab — expects to reach the mega-user audience that the 2D Web enjoys, they will have to make the virtual world experience considerably more intuitive than SL presently is.
However, I do think that Second Life is approaching the right balance of user-ability and content creator-friendliness that it needs to continue to succeed — IF Linden Lab can resolve its continued annoying issues with stability.
Immersive Workspaces will still not be a huge success. The reason being people do not have TIME to faff about with the pain that is Second Life. For an hour meeting, we use a conference line. Simple. If we do have to get more involved and see presentations, we use WebEx. Again Simple, quick and lost cost.
I fail to see the value of Immersive Workspaces it’s a gimmick at best and perhaps will gain some customer based. But the smart educators are already hooked into Sun Microsystem’s Wonderland project, the corporates into CISCO and the rest simply use 2D or verbal tools.
I think RRR has pushed their limits on this one, if they are still in business by 2010 I would be surprised.
On 02.15.09 Giff said:
I don’t think SL is dead by any means, but it offers limited opportunities at this point. SL may yet come into its own, but it is not anywhere near to fulfilling its early promise as a 3D Web.
Markets come and go, that is a fact of life, and businesses have to adapt or die. This one came and went pretty fast. As I see it, SL-based opportunity can only support smaller consulting businesses and freelancers right now. I think the most exciting stuff in SL is the experimentation being done by folks in education, and it makes sense that SL is a great place for them to be.
There still is a lot of work in the consumer virtual worlds space, however. Certain businesses still see virtual worlds/MMOs as an important moneymaker or offering to their customers, especially in the kids demographic, but they typically want to create their own offering rather than build inside of someone else’s world.
ESC built WebFlock so that it could build custom worlds for those clients. It’s a flexible platform, right now with a Flash front-end but it can support any rendering engine (such as Unity). Yes, you can build lots of games and activities on top of it. One large kids virtual world built on top of WebFlock, Ridemakerz, should be emerging from closed beta later this spring.
So in terms of your question, “will people stay?” in WebFlock worlds — that totally depends on how one designs the particular world and the activities/games therein. WebFlock is just a flexible toolkit and server platform for ESC or third parties to build virtual worlds.
Linden Lab purges nearly a million inactive Second Life users…
Linden Lab has, for a very long time, published quite an array of statistical data about Second Life through a regularly updated (when it worked, which it didn’t always) set of statistical data feeds (mostly collected by aficionados and researchers). …
You’re missing the point though, virtual worlds have become part of the mix. WebEX, audio conferences and video all have their place and time, as do Virtual Worlds.
Immersive Workspaces is designed to address a lot of the issues arising from Virtual Worlds usability and adoption. We call this, breaking the snowball. We’ve developed a web based system, seamlessly integrating with 3d space. One of the biggest headaches was presenting media, an area traditionally taking around 45mins to set up a 15 min meeting, this now takes minutes. We’ve addressed all this and a lot more. Also, our solution is a fraction of the cost of competing VW technology. The ROI is incredible, one of our clients has told us they’ve already saved over a 1MillionUSD.
The smart educators are using Wonderland, are you sure? 80% of the UK Universities and Colleges have a presence in Second Life. Not to mention, the dizzy amount in Europe and the USA. We’re seeing almost daily Educators opening or expanding their presences in Second Life. As for the corporate world, we’re seeing multiple adoptions: Forterra, Wonderland, Second Life, Open Sim etc.
Also, it might be worthwhile thinking about virtual worlds for their persistent advantage, non- linear interaction. We’re seeing great gains with clients achieving real advantages in distant learning, knowledge transfer and collaboration. As we’ve seen VW’s add that something extra to collaboration.
Also, have a look at the recent Gartner predictions, they’ve cited VW as a major consideration. They even mention our product as one of the main products to look at.
If you get a chance Jonathan, why don’t you come and see a demo. I would love to show it to you personally?
As for our ‘business’ we’ve been here since 2003, I can assure you we will be around a lot longer to come.
Justin Bovington
CEO
RRR
On 02.15.09 radar said:
Great article, Dusan. One question – why does every paragraph uttered by ESC in the above start with “so”? Anytime someone starts off a thought with “So,” I know it means they don’t have a clear thought to communicate. They’re thinking it up as they go.
Interesting analysis. I think with a lot of new technologies you get a lot of firms testing the waters there and deciding that it wasn’t market-ready and moving on. VWs and SL are no different.
The key issues of scaleability and “first hour” user interface issues are ones that Linden Lab has frontloaded as priorities for action in the near term. They’ve got a lot of smart people there, so I wouldn’t count them out by any means.
But there is definitely room for new entrants that can seize the space by combining the most attractive attributes of VWs, social media, social networking, and online games.
From what I understand about MetaPlace, they are positioning themselves well. Other solutions like Qwak Forums seem to be contenders in the work collabotion 3d suites. And webinar solutions are still way too expensive for most middle to small firms to use on a regular basis. So there are definitely still opportunities there for a nimble tech company to enter and thrive.
@ Gif – I think you made my point for me. My feeling isn’t that browser-based virtual worlds don’t work, it’s that the value proposition needs to be delivered to each audience. It’s interesting that you use the kid’s worlds as an example, I suppose: sure, some have worked, but far more have failed. It takes the right mix of entertainment, social chat, games, etc. possibly mixed in with a recognizable brand if you’re going to ‘cut through’. But I suppose the bigger argument FOR Webflock, and Metaplace, and Vivaty and everyone is that you can ‘take it with you’ – the ability to embed virtual worlds across the Web is a compelling way to argue that you can attract users from where they already are – L-Word being an example, maybe.
Add Quest 3D and Unity 3D to the mix (now cross-platform woot!) and you have a decent range of scripting abilities, games, and mash-ups.
You’re right about Second Life – I suppose it’s why I said “chugging along” – it’s not ready for the millions that ESC is after. However, if it can continue to allow users to create their OWN value then the attraction of SL isn’t that it’s a mass media platform, it’s that it has a “work force” that’s in the 10s of thousands, with 100s of schools (as Justin points out), independent content creators, technologists and others.
Jonathan really is missing the point. But then, someone who posts anonymously usually is. (Gif, I’ll exempt you, there’s only one Gif after all). But what was telling about his comment was the phrase ‘2D and verbal tools’. This belies either an ignorance of where 3D tools can take you, or a lack of recognition of the different communication and learning styles. Besides which, anyone who’d propose that one form of interaction is a replacement for all others probably believes that books are dead or, conversely, that the Web will never achieve the power of the printed word. Two complementary media, each part of the mix, each with its strengths.
I suppose it’s no secret whether I’m an optimist or a pessimist about virtual worlds. My bet is they all win: Web-based worlds, virtual worlds, enterprise uses and branded entertainments. I also bet that the breakthroughs to come are in mixed/augmented reality and mirror worlds, in particular cross-media controllers and appliances and sensors that talk to virtual platforms; and geo-specific virtual worlds that allow location-specific tagging and data visualization.
Sure, no one thing will last forever. Eventually ‘creative destruction’ lets us all start all over again, picking up from past successes and failures and forging on anew. But that’s OK. I lost interest in the limits of my Commodore 64 a few years ago.
Although conspiracy theorists want to interpret every single move made by Linden Lab as evidence for some yet-to-be-identified global plot to take over the virtual world, purging of dormant or non-activated accounts is something you might expect ANY business to do as a matter of course. Having just gone through such a process in my real life business, all I can say is that it’s simply a way of reducing expenses.
Trimming down databases is a common enough procedure and I wonder why folks out there should be surprised that Linden Lab might do this. The surprise is more that they took so long – if this is, indeed, the “purge” foretold by John Zdanowski over a year ago.
I also noticed Tateru’s comment that “during mid-January, two sets of those feeds suddenly stopped working. A bug, we thought, as data-quality for the statistical has traditionally been exceptionally poor…” Well, as a private company, I hate to remind folks that Linden Lab have no obligation to feed ANY data to the general public and, as I have said before, I find the company rather too open about what it does. Apart from producing a P&L report once a year for the shareholders and the tax man, LL could legitimately turn off the phones and trash all emails automatically. Off-handedly or overtly criticizing any company for not telling you what it doesn’t have to tell you seems pointless.
I just hope they continue to purge more and deeper.
@Rik – Excellent points. We see progress in SL. And OpenSim for that matter, or variants of it. But Qwak? I have a license to Qwak. The support is terrible. The ‘richness’ of the spaces is lacking. But what it DOES have is the ability to share and co-edit documents and desktop items.
The real break throughs this year for SL will I believe be HTML on a prim and HTTP-In (and maybe mesh imports – but if they mishandle that they could just as easily sink themselves). With those in hand, you could see all kinds of cross-platform applications and mash-ups, and you could hack together what Qwak does, only with far better looking avatars.
You’re absolutely right, the Lab has a right to its own data and record purging is a common enough practice. However, the success of the Lab is dependent on the success of the content creators who use the SL platform. These are real people making real money operating in SL. Their success is the Lab’s success: as M and Philip have so often stated, as the content creators and enterprises go, so goes SL.
As an intelligent business person, I’m sure you’d agree to the importance of data as a decision-making tool. To take a simple example: would you bank somewhere that doesn’t tell you what its rates are or charges? Probably not.
The Lab isn’t obliged to publish stats, but the business people who use SL as a platform for their enterprise benefit by being able to predict and track trends so that they can make their own decisions about pricing, investment, and growth.
The very nature of SL and its policies, transparency, technology, IP rights (and protections, or lack thereof) is a shared ecosystem between the Lab and its residents.
This isn’t about conspiracy theories, it’s about trying to determine whether the lack of statistics is a period of adjustments in the baseline data, or an indication of something else gone awry that should be of concern to the enterprises that make money there.
You’ve hit this problem (or some aspect of it) right on the head. It’s what I always call a ‘Rashoman’ experience. Even when we view the same “reality” we are strongly influenced by our assumptions, pre-conceptions, and expectations. That applies to every new experience, not just virtual worlds.
One of the things I find most compelling about SL is, in fact, the opportunity to meet avatars from all over the world who brin all those different viewpoints and worldviews to the table.
From an education POV, what I see is rapidly increasing interest and awareness. The majority of educators missed the 2006 hype period entirely and are just now hearing about SL and the really interesting applications.
Time will tell. I for one am still really excited about the possibilities of such a rich environment for higher ed applications in particular.
If they purged names of people who never logged on, what of it? I must have like 30 of those types of accounts, when I was trying to make an account and got foiled, or made one and made a typo or something and had to let it go. So does everybody.
Nothing good about the “members only” specialized FIC secret lobbying of the Lindens for features sets, without the general public being able to excercise some sort of democratic oversight. Like decisions to remove traffic that fix aesthetic problems for geeks, and ideological problems for control freaks, and get rid of embarrassment for corporations without footfalls, but then kill sales for those inworld who merited ungamed real traffic. That sort of thing.
>they’re about reorganizing how the Lab itself aggregates and distributes content for the purposes of streaming people to the stuff that will make them stay.
No, they’re about controlling customers more and filtering out ones they don’t like.
On 02.15.09 Prokofy said:
>For the first time it seems like they are trying to understand user behavior and adapt to it, facilitating individuals, instead of looking at ‘the community’ as one big soup they could force to think in certain ways
This would be great, and a welcome development, if it didn’t involve a huge blindspot: inworld business. The Lindens peer at the grid now, and say “everyone out of the pool, and go into the following locker rooms: a) Enterprise b) Solutions Providers c) Educators d) Socializers/Customers — everybody else. And they favour one set, and filter, corral, streamline, control category d).
On 02.15.09 Prokofy said:
>The blog changes are facilitating and also recognizing individuals rather than ‘the user’ as a mass – facilitating each of these groups to find their own niche of ‘relevance’ within the platform of SL.
They are balkanizing and controlling the community through filtration. And that means only they see the whole picture. Bloggers who care about the entire world and the ramifications of everything happening to everyone, as in a real world situation, or cross-themes or cross-channel concerns, will have to work really hard to get reporting from the different channels and aggregate it and make sense of it.
On 02.15.09 Prokofy said:
There are already plenty of missionaries and evangelists in SL from all over, tons of them. Search for words like “Christian” or “Gospel” and you will find them. They all operate from the assumption that you go to where the people are and you don’t worry about adjacency issues. Kind of like all those street missions in RL located next to porn parlours and such.
I agree with Sigmund and with Dusan. Purging those never-active accounts is an obvious necessity. However, the change in numbers is something that is easily misunderstood, unless explained.
This seems like the perfect sort of situation for a big post on the blog of the order of “Here’s what we’re planning to do, and here’s why it benefits everyone” sort of post. It’s a great opportunity to head off wild speculations and explain the benefits of the process before it happens. It goes a long way to demonstrate the sort of consistency of approach and communication which the enterprise likes to see in a service.
Only that explanation never happened, which is a bit sad.
On 02.16.09 Giff said:
I’m glad to hear that Justin and RRR are doing well. I think that there are some excellent use cases for enterprise virtual worlds. The one I am *personally* most bullish on is ops management, with the virtual presentation of telemetry data.
Dusan, I thought you stated this quite well “However, if it can continue to allow users to create their OWN value then the attraction of SL isn’t that it’s a mass media platform, it’s that it has a “work force” that’s in the 10s of thousands”
I agree with you. It’s funny how many people I run into out there that think SL is dead, but I try to tell them otherwise.
An interesting trend we see is kids brands wanting to shift their websites to a 3D or 3D-like interface. They are not necessarily creating a full MMO. Time will tell to see how this really plays out. While you said that most virtual worlds fail, these are websites which already have high traffic built around a real world brand, and where kids are already spending a fair amount of time playing flash games. I do not think that these websites will take over the world and become monsters of market share, but I believe that it is much easier to monetize a virtual world-like website than a normal one via virtual goods.
OK, all I have time to dash off, but interesting conversation.
So the big story is the “metaverse” goes from “Snowcrash” to “Flash sites using Swift3D”.
Which is from what the older websites have said, was the end of the first web3d hype in the early 2000s.
It just goes to show that “tools” sold to developers to use any way they want commercially ALWAYS trumps “single company owned service media platforms” for any real commercial industries growth.
I dont remember any of these “big 3″ running there businesses/or client projects this way.
Bailouts from the government were meant to help “industries” not “companies”.
Best to let these 3 join the ranks of being just another freelance flash/web house.
Join the rest of us flash artists and action script dudes since 1999.
[...] Life. Dusan Writer comes to the rescue with an explanation in this illuminating tell-all titled The Forked Road. By Chenin in Articles .::. You can follow any responses to this entry through [...]
Anyone who has studied Social Psychology will be familiar with the extensive work of Kenneth Gergen about the constructed identity and its variants in different social groups and situations. Also group work done by Zimbardo and others underpins these significant findings.
We are arguing here about a phenomena that has been well researched and well proven for many years now. Its findings and conclusions are well established, even in situations that are fabricated and not considered ‘normal’ interaction.
Constructed Identity
Our identity consists of parts. All are part of the whole, yet the sum of the parts is greater than the parts themselves.
Identity varies in differing situations and each person who knows us sees us with a different identity according to their own filter of experience and understanding. Just as we all have our ‘telephone voice’, we have a personality for every individual we come into contact with, depending on our previous stereotyping of people we judge as being ‘like them’ – in real life this judgement is often made by the colour of someone’s skin, their gender, hair colour, age and dress. These categorisations are strikingly arrived at within 7 seconds, before a person even has a chance to open his or her mouth.
Pinker (2002, p. 202) writes that “some categories really are social constructions: they exist only because people tacitly agree to act as if they exist”.
Avatar Identity
Avatars are a convenient way to decide on what stereotype you wish to be given, outside of those organically embedded into you. You already have an idea of what makes up that category. In Second Life, we are also defining new categories, such as Steam Punk and Furries. What we have is created a socially agreed norm for what constitutes that category.
Avatar names are also constructed like real names. Akin to nicknames, they are ones we chose for ourselves rather than having names like ‘four eyes’ thrust upon us. We construct our own chosen identities within the pressures of our real environment, it is much the same within virtual worlds.
Identities Linked
I personally agree that real names and photographs should identify us and link us to the real world, however there too, we are in a continual process of constructing and deconstructing our identities, dependent on our own and others’ expectations. No one has a consistent identity that they carry around with them intact, we vary al the time. When you row with your significant other or scream at your kids, are you the same person who greets the boss? I hope not because you’ll soon be out of a job.
The same applies to virtual worlds, we fit in with societal expectations of us. Linden Labs has the intelligence to treat each cultural entity as distinct. They don’t expect conformity as Twinity does (which is not surprising given its Germanic home – were we to stereotype this would be neat, tidy, organised and controlled). We re bound by cultural expectations.
What is Transparency?
When Dustan talks about trust, again the word transparency rises its ugly head. Authenticity, integrity, validity and other such words enter the arena too. He mentions ‘RECOURSE’, this is simply a culturally bound principle in the US and other western nations. Nations who do not have a blame/sue culture are not even aware of this. I have a lot of contact with Portuguese people, in both realms and people from this culture are eager to exchange personal information in Second Life. There is no ‘blame culture’ in that country. Perhaps the Western ’sue’ culture is the reason for fear, not transparency itself.
I myself was at the sharp end of that phenomenon in hiring a builder who we shall call ‘Dolly’ here. Dolly was from the US, California to be precise. Dolly wasn’t interested in the pittance I paid her to build in Second Life, she had a sick relative who needed money for medical care. Dolly had limited building skills and I took pity on her believing I could train her. Needless to say Dolly’s work was never any good and was never completed. However, after she disappeared I was contacted by her lawyer who informed me that I had to pay $12,000 US because she had incurred stress during her work in Second Life. All this was set up well before I took Dolly on and needless to say, she had already tried the same stunt several times before this. If this is your culture, then indeed it is wise to hide your true identity.
Where there is money, the lawyers, accountants and tax men will always be there to take their cut.
However this is nothing to do with ‘who you are’ and everything to do with preventing exploitation. As Dustan says, relationships are another construction, built over time and dependent on past performance. This is why social networks have become paramount during these information rich times.
Body of Evidence
I have to disagree with Prokofy Neva, not because I personally disagree, but because there is a huge body of empirical research that reinforces these facts about the human psyche. I see the power of Prokofy’s argument and know that might can sometimes be right, but not in this case – where masses of leading research over the past 100 years points in the opposite direction. Alberik did not write tripe, he wrote something that has been well substantiated. I am sure that those interested in this subject would find much of the work done by ‘Social Constructionists’ useful.
The Value of Anonymity
As Infocyde points out, Oscar Wilde was a wise man. Seldom are we given the opportunity for anonymity in life. However, the opposite is also possible, as people are shown to construct lies more liberally when given anonymity in courts. As even language is a fundamental construct, we can make ourselves and others believe anything we want to through language and image.
Why hide behind an Avatar?
So why separate part of our personalities and split them off – as you would do if you kept your true identity hidden behind an avatar?
- To separate an aspect of your personality and contain it in an environment that is not threatening. People threatened in this way would find help in the study of PTSD, fragmented personalities and warfare to understand this more deeply.
As Kwame AKA (Julius Sowu) says, fleeing from ourselves has caused more grief that integrating and understanding our various identities, or ‘faces’. Personally I would encourage anyone resisting this move forward to look at themselves and identify what they are frightened of instead of resisting change.
Times are Changing
Change is inevitable, even change of the ’self’. We grow older, we change jobs, we cannot resist it. Change can be positive, once we are across the barrier that is fear. We are more than one identity, we are many – changing, evolving and growing. I thank everyone who has given me the material and inspiration to join this discussion to help me change and grow.
To show the world all that you are and share it with others is the most powerful expression of ’self’ possible. To deny this to yourself and others is tragic.
I’ve been alternatively wrestling and romancing the concept of identity for the past year or so. As you mentioned, we all take on different identities, not only over the course of a day, but over the course of our lives.
One challenge in thinking clearly about the subject is that the word “identity” encompasses quite a few different meanings which are related, but not identical. For instance, there are legal, social, psychological and even spiritual aspects. Just within the psychological sphere, the term identity can apply to social roles, gender preference, transcendental states, and so on.
So Botgirl is both real and fictional, depending upon the context and the particular aspect of identity one is referring to. I’ve found that arguments about identity in the avatar community often stem from mushy definitions. We end up disagreeing because I might be referring to legal identity and the other person is describing the personal experience of being a unique being.
I disagree with your statement “I personally agree that real names and photographs should identify us and link us to the real world…” The problem I have is the word “should.” Should from an ethical standpoint? A healthy psychological standpoint? A legal standpoint? I would certainly agree that it is your right to insist that I disclose RL identity if I want to do business with you. But that’s not my responsibility, rather it’s your personal preference. Like most things in life, some people make a choice for a healthy reason and some out of either nefarious intent or psychological trauma.
Finally, agree with your last statement, if you mean “self” as the unique mixture of personal qualities, talents, beliefs and so on each of us possesses. I don’t think it’s tragic if I don’t give you my social security number.
Anyway, thanks for continuing to fight the good fight. I’m going to be working in this area for the next six months as I prepare for a RL/SL exhibition on the topic of “The Ambiguity of Identity.” Hopefully, I figure a few more things out along the way.
Extremely well written and thought out. Thank you for posting it.
I strongly disagree with the implication that anonymity is detrimental to self and society. Like pen-names before then, anonymous online identities afford all the appropriate avenues for open self-expression, creativity, and safety in today’s world.
As much as I respect the work made to refer to existing academic research on this topic, I suggest it does not fit entirely since it cannot reflect nuances relevant to today’s use of online anonymity.
It’s interesting that we are all dissecting the history of what has happened in Second Life, but generally neglecting to discuss activity before the 2006 / 07 .
To me, Second Life is simply a virtual place, which has been steadily growing for 5 or 6 years. The various ways people have tried to make it work for them ( residents and companies ) are all good, some are more successful than others, some promise more and are higher profile. I’m not sure I think about it being the 3d internet at all, and to be honest I don’t think that has ever really been its intent. I think its something else, which we don’t understand yet, but is evolving at its own pace, slowly and steadily, and of course its really just an very good extension of numerous other virtual world projects going back to the 70s.
At the moment I have to say that it seems far more logical, that the mainstream adoption of a concept like the metaverse or a globally pervasive location based web overlay, is far more likely to come though augmented reality / mobile applications. I say this because that approach requires no process of avatarisation – you don’t immerse to go to the data or the people, the data or the people come to you. I think successful and lasting avatarisation requires a certain type of self analytical ability or expression, which may be limited to an early adopter, or early adopter+ demographic.
However as Justin says, a mixture of fully immersive places, 2 dimensional web and location based augmented reality applications seems to be a perfectly logical way forward on all fronts.
I think its a shame to think of the 06/07 period as a regret. That was a period of people trying to do something very hard – make a virtual place pay for itself in real world terms. Those projects deserve respect for trying this and indeed finding out many things that dont work, as well as many that do.
Applying the Gartner hype cycle to just the adoption of Second Life is an incorrect reflection on the larger development of virtual worlds. When considered along that 30 year time-frame, the peak of inflated expectations and trough of disillusionment are just a little blip, similar to many before.
The future of the internet / enterprise / education etc etc may well go its own way, and VWs will probably play a part in all that. Frankly though, I’m more interested in the unique and new things which these new media afford, not trying to shoehorn them into extending or slightly augmenting old models.
Avatars are only fancy immersive cursers be them anthropomorphic or a puff of smoke with a name on top.
They are not beings, and no rights should be given to them. The need to act as though they are real is dangerous new age dribble.
SL fails mainly as a growth platform since it cannot decide if its a “roleplay service” or a “platform service”.
The SL name system is WHY most people never return, or dont go further than a half sign up.
If allowed a real relationship to others immersively and allowed to create a set of play personas for the Furry or RPG Cyberpunk games WITHIN the Second Life Platform, then LL would have a business beyond server space ponzi scheme, which they dont, and is why they are now in decline phase headed to sell off.
The attempt to just pay a bill to LL is a joke messed up with faux avatar boundries that make all talk of corporate buisness tools a lost cause.
Proof is in almost all the work done by the SL birthed Metaconsultant Agencies, a few produced a few “experiences for marketing or branding”. Most have produced empty office complexs for a platform that cant be used for real business activities.
People in general want the truth, people stressed in these times demand it.
[...] Dusan responded to some of the conversation about the media guys and the coming and going of the corporations in SL with a very interesting blog post. [...]
The benefits of virtual worlds have never been about brand recognition, unless that brand brought some valuable content or context specifically for the virtual world. Fashion obviously has some pretty direct relevance in both worlds, even if we aren’t all 7′1″ in RL.
As for Coke, if they actually had a Druid quest that would give you ‘Coke bottle’ form with some sort of deal with Mentos to provide a special attack when you combine them. (/me finds own eyes rolling)
That whole phase of real world brands coming into SL was just craziness. Some of the companies that experimented are actually not just out of it, but bankrupt now or close to it.
Advertising as we know it is going away, as you point out. It has been a useless pursuit for so long, imho. People buy what their friends are buying and recommending because it is working for them. Stop wasting dollars on hype/advertising and spend them on making a good product that at first you only let a select few have, an ‘in’ crowd. Then, as Seth Godin and others point out, that novelty will market itself. Why did Google smash Yahoo? Because more people recommended it. Hardly a nickle spent on advertising that I have ever seen. And Twitter, I don’t see that advertising at all, but it is exploding onto the radars of everyone. The community is the advertiser, sorry Weiden & Kennedy.
On 02.18.09 Prokofy Neva said:
I hope you will read every word in my blog about this which explains the problem in depth:
BTW Dusan’s posts are probably as long as, or longer than mine.
In the amplification of Second Life, we can see there is a certain type of geek’s deep-seated hatred of capitalism and commerce (except, of course for the geek’s own widget business!) that constantly disrupts this conversation about advertising and public engagement and constantly hobbles progress in developing these worlds. Constantly. Over and over again. And it’s ironic that in Metanomics, which is supposed to be about economics and business, these unemployed or semi-employed coders who show up with time on their hands to sit and watch machinima and chat in a wonky interface are the very people who HATE capitalist business. You wonder, what is there purpose in coming to MetaNOMICS if they can’t grasp that the ECONOMICS of these worlds cannot and will not be socialist, but will be capitalist? Hello?
The one person in the chat with this point of view willing to aggressively flog it — one Reed Steamroller who was making ridiculously stupid comments to me (like accusing me of admiring Madoff’s “genius” just because I saw the wisdom in selling advertising!) — and the 2-3 or three who grumbled about advertising, mass culture, and capitalism along with him, aren’t the norm even on the left in SL. They are a hard core that keep dominating this discussion, however.
This was above all a cultural battle in the cultural wars of Second Life. Reuben was despised by a few because he represented mass American culture which is hated especially by Europeans on the left and certain progressives even in the U.S.. Someone like Reuben is hated for representing big corporations which are hated, especially by Europeans on the left. But…we can’t let Europeans on the left (and Canadians, and Japanese and anybody else out there) hobble progress. Media needs to sell ads to support itself. Media will always sell ads to support itself. Media will go on selling ads to support itself despite your belief that it should be ad-free and culturally superior and paid for…out of a tip jar or Dusan’s budget or something…
On 02.18.09 Prokofy Neva said:
Mo Hax is a PERFECT exemplar of the mindset that I’m describing as the very hobbling problem here.
>The benefits of virtual worlds have never been about brand recognition, unless that brand brought some valuable content or context specifically for the virtual world.
Of course they have. There.com methodically and consciously sells ad space and invades the content with corporate offerings and has the time of their life. They make money, and the kids in There get the brand jackets, cars, sneakers and they don’t care. They love it. It’s ok. They are not harmed. This concern that VWs must be scrubbed clean of brands and no brand can ever come into a friggin’ virtual world unless it’s a precious Lilith Heart tree or something is completely whack. NOBODY BELIEVES THIS except this small handful of geeks bleating about it in SL in the sandbox and at Metanomics. The rest of the world, led by people like Reuben of vision, have stampeded off to the large populated worlds which at this stage are kids’ worlds. And there they will follow those kids as they grow up and go on to other platforms that will also have brands and ads. And Second Life will be a goddamn backwater of freaks unless they start selling the ad space like normal people do with normal media.
Yes, I realize the politically-correct geek-o-rati point of view about these things is that the brands have to bring a benefit inside the VW — usable swag, clothing, a virtual car, something. Well, sure, that’s nice. But…guess what. People actually have no problem with seeing a Sears washing machine and a Dell computer they aren’t actually touching and using in world if it can tie up to their RL in some way with information, and that merely means staffing. It’s not rocket science. It will work. That it didn’t work, as I explain in my blog, is directly the fault of the cynical and anti-corporate geeks who ran the “solutions providers” companies at the time. Full stop. Get them out of the way, and bring in a new bunch. Please.
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with Coke having a Druids Mentos thing. They should have a 100 such things. In fact, it shouldnt’ be up to me to hack together a “coke vending machine” in SL out of existing resident made stuff because the Coke bottle of the real Coke island is so crappy — again, because the geeks working the job had contempt for it like Mo Hax does. If those people hired to do this hadn’t been rolling their eyes, we’d see better results. They did, so we didn’t. THEY ARE THE PROBLEM, NOT THE PLATFORM.
Most people don’t react with an eye-roll and contempt to ads. They click on them. Ads work. There isn’t some gigantic class of people for whom they don’t work. That class is a niche, it is small, Reuben gets that, and Reuben moved on until the Lindens, and their special ones like Mo Hax, understand that they need to get out of the way of progress here.
That whole phase of real world brands coming into SL was just craziness. Some of the companies that experimented are actually not just out of it, but bankrupt now or close to it.
The crazyness may have been in the acceleration or the hype but it need not have failed if the geeks of SL in Linden and close to Linden had been willing to sell the ad space. That’s all. I explain this problem at length in my blog, and really lambast them for having the cynicism, as a class of people, to insist that we all live with ad farms for the sake of their geeky notions of needed 16 m2 for script testing, while they simultaneously refused to sell the ad space available on the splash screen. It was a historical missed opportunity. They can make up for this, but they’ll need to walk firmly around people like Mo Hax in their own ranks.
This is one of the more stupid things I’ve seen in a social media in a long time:
“Advertising as we know it is going away, as you point out. It has been a useless pursuit for so long, imho.”
The entire Google monster, the entire Yahoo machine, the entire old-media machine moved to the Internet like nytimes.com runs on the ad principle. The ads, be they aesthetic or not, get clicked on, they lead to sales, and they work, and they pay out. That’s the reality. Mo Hax may find it culturally unaesthetic; Mo Hax may find it politically unacceptable. But it’s what works, and will go on working despite him lol.
>People buy what their friends are buying and recommending because it is working for them.
This, again, is one of those silly geek ideas that has only a very small niche applicability that can’t work with the mass of people, on mass media, or selective channel media like Second Life. Not everything is run on a “word of mouth” principle. A solitary person clicks on the ad he sees on his media — on his email, blog, You-Tube. In SL, he sees it flying around or on his splash screen and clicks. End of story. Get over it. Get over *yourself*.
>Stop wasting dollars on hype/advertising and spend them on making a good product that at first you only let a select few have, an ‘in’ crowd.
Oh, please. Huh? Run the world on the principle of the FIC? Are you DAFT? Dollars spent now on Google ads pay out ROI and keep Google and its many businesses dependent on it afloat. These are ads served to the public, not to ingroups buying an i-Phone and testing it out with geeks. The geek method of selling crap must not be replicated across to other sectors of society — it won’t work, and it’s disastrous as a concept because it means only niche media that geeks approve of then gets to be supported with ads in the way they like. That’s whack.
>Then, as Seth Godin and others point out, that novelty will market itself. Why did Google smash Yahoo? Because more people recommended it. Hardly a nickle spent on advertising that I have ever seen.
Seth Godin is really a danger to society as he is one of those “though leaders” actively undermining basic freedoms and pushing totalitarian groups. I need to take on his Little White Book one of these days. It’s a horror. The only reason Google smashed Yahoo was because Wikipedia and Google cooperated, and not Wikipedia and Yahoo. that’s all.
>And Twitter, I don’t see that advertising at all, but it is exploding onto the radars of everyone. The community is the advertiser, sorry Weiden & Kennedy.
Twitter doesn’t need advertising when it is in the VC stage burning through VC injections. It will, eventually, like Google and Yahoo need advertising.
But, to stay more focused on your post, Dusan, my perception is one of opportunity. I liken it to several factors or analogies rather. For example, when we move to a different community or change jobs this opportunity presents itself, albeit a not conscious effort that we made this change. But, point being is this new environment gives us this opportunity to be something we haven’t before.
One might ask why was it necessary, for this environmental change to present this opportunity? This brings me to another factor. It can be argued as to ‘whom’ we really are and what we are made of that makes us that. More often than not, as people we frequent contact with come to ‘know’ us, from their own biased views, it builds a “BOX” around us making very difficult to be different. Why? Because, most people want to be comfortable, change is hard for all. So, this comfort breeds inertia and a degree of psychological laziness. Again, this is not intentional on individualness, for the most part.
It has been said many times that to grow we must reach outside our comfort zone. This takes much effort. Therefore, SL, and I strongly disagree with “chris” above. There are so many pursuits in life we choose as individuals that reflect the things we strongly desire. SL is a very different one, obviously. Chris, why do you think they refer to it as a “virtual reality”; something to think about.
Anyway, there are so many experiences in life that bring us to a personality, and that is only part of who we are. There are also the parts that others perceive us to be. Then there are parts that are much more unconscious, and hidden, or not expressed out of fear of ridicule or rejection. This is where Second Life presents a very different and a historical revolutionary opportunity to BE much of what we have always wanted to be, even if it’s not what we THINK reality IS.
In closing, I’d point out that obsessive or fanatical behavior is a dysfunction. This does not mean it’s something we don’t need to go through to grow into, hopefully, something for the better.
Finally, there is “Anonymity”. I think it’s entirely appropriate when dealing in business transactions that are of a very significant kind. Buying virtual products for the most part isn’t one of them. But, if it’s a major undertaking and potentially can affect important concerns, then it’s a must. Otherwise this anonymity is crucial to this period of growing outside the box. The key will be, can we take what we have learnt, and apply it in our everyday REAL life; this would represent something very profound.
Dusan there is a correction on my blog I am passing along, X3D-Earth was funded by IARPA (Intelligence Advanced Research Projects Activity ). Thanks for posting this as it is nice to see others reporting on the EXISTING 3D web standard!
For Prokofy, I figured you too well versed in the virtual worlds crowd to not know what is the ISO ratified standard for interactive 3D on the web (X3D), and the difference between open source and open standard. Perhaps I am assuming too much.
Wonderful article. I think, to be honest, it isn’t really an incredibly complicated answer we’re looking for.External Corporations with an interest in marketing residents will not work. Second Life an impractical platform in which to market. Why? Because the technology is too outdated. The grid could not scale with the growth. We can’t have more than 30 people on a sim without it weeping for mercy. What corporation wants to market to 40 residents at a time? Not to mention the instabilities and bugs that still plague the technicians. We, as contractors don’t have the ability to really market our clients, their builds, their projects or in-world experiences because the world is so big that it’s nearly impossible to solicit enough people to make even a modest investment worthwhile. We don’t have access to Message of the Day or any way to tie our efforts directly to the users of the platform. Linden Lab does, and in the future they will likely conclude the they are really the only viable contractors with arms reaching much further than any resident contractors.
We have a responsibility to be honest to clients. I think many in-world companies went to corporates selling them ideal and notions of inflated potential rather than the reality. I’ve heard Second life pitched as “A virtual platform where you can reach over a million subscribers.” And that not technically accurate. We have yet to reach even 100,000 concurrency as far as I know. It appears to me that people like Mr. Stiger see the future value and possibilities of Second Life, but have gravely misunderstood it, as many corporates have. Despite what Mr. Kapor Stated last year in his keynote speech, SL is still being molded and defined by it’s users. It is being given a multitude of purposes and many of those in various industries are just coming to understand what those are. It is critical to recognize the inadequacies of Second Life, but keep in mind the wonderful future it has in store as a pioneer of virtual education, media, marketing and more.
On 02.18.09 OMG TOTALITARIAN GODIN said:
It’s really disappointing to read Prokofy Neva on this blog. Please, stop the hate – ban Prokofy Neva.
Aww don’t ban Prokofy. He has the biggest balls of them all. He does spew hate all across he blog-o-sphere, but I think deep down He has a big ocean of warm LOVE. His hate is there to amplify an individuals belief in love as the answer. The post is about VWorld Branding. Prokofy has one of the strongest of all the SL Brands, a very well known individual. Maybe Coke and Nike will adopt the Prokofy style. “F**king drink this drink, you f**king geeky communist technotard. If you dont drink this f**king drink, you are just proving how far removed from reality you are. All my good friends drink this f**king drink, so it MUST be the best drink in the world. Buy Prokofyade now! (can be addictive, and harmful to ones self-belief, drink responsibly)”.
I don’t really click on ads or make any money from advertising. I know that secondlife is a beautiful thing. For a company to make money here will take many months of hard workings, and they must bring something of value to people who are liking secondlife. The platform is a bit wonky to compete with the usual video game product like quakewars or sony home, but it already has a big userbase of people who really really like it. Ads for outside stuff is not the way forward, Ads for the next super cool RP sim are one example of what could work. Or Ads for all of the Buddist groups in SL. This has all been said before. Noones cooming to SL to look at a bunch of AdBoards, they wont stay long if thats all there is to look at. LL knows this, that is why the keep the website and client virtually ad-free. They should get more adventurous with their website, and maybe help some of the less business savvy customers to improve thier chances of making good (and sustainable) business decisions. What LL still has (freedom of 3d space use) is very beautiful, a bit like gold. Except this gold is handed out as the form of lead.
On 02.19.09 GDBattaglia said:
Mr. Kingdon is a world class BS artist and a relentless spouter of the party line of the moment. He should be in politics rather than technology. Don’t hold your breaths.
Troy – you’re absolutely right, and by way of correction, it turns out that these were the guys who MADE the camera that Kapor’s software was linked to. Wonder how he feels having Microsoft buy it out.
Wow, amazing camera work. I am just now stepping into the world of photography and well, this is amazing work.
On 02.22.09 Dent said:
This chart is an adaptation of a product crafted by the CEC. Where on this product do they state this? I think that is called plagarism. Is this what the Air Force considers “transparency?” Come on folks, cite your source.
On 02.22.09 Immerdar Fredriksson said:
With all due respect,
I am not partial to images
which exhibit a “line of focus”
across their centers
regardless of how it was achieved.
Thanks very much indeed for the mention here. What a fantastic blog you have! The interview with Joyce and Ze Moo was fasinating and I’m looking foward to future virtual performance events. If you come across anything that catches your attention please send it my way.
[...] vez existe mayor diversidad en Second Life. Dusan Writer´s nos conecta con la iniciativa de teatro en SL que va ganando fuerza ya que se reconoce el [...]
Andrew Linden said moments ago during his in-world office hour that Linden Lab ended up hiring Philippe Bossut, the person who did the SL integration on those 3D cameras.
On 02.27.09 Abe said:
You wonder what the Big Three are doing now? No doubt what they do best, selling snake oil.
One thing is clear. We get to see who is dedicated to this business for the long term. Whether or not individuals are trustworthy is exemplified by their actions over the long term. Are they committed to a concept or are they just a horde of locusts chasing easy money that can’t be trusted?
It has been interesting watching some assumptions that my departure means IBM is pulling out of virtual worlds. If anything this should be seen as the opposite.
I want the industry that I have been part of to continue, it needs companies the size of IBM to be part of it.
I was comfortable that, regardless of any personal needs, this was mature enough in IBM that me going would not cause an implosion.
Now is the time for the industry to move and move fast. I think we will all make that happen.
As for the details of what I ended up doing and why, well thats for my book
I am however very pleased that there has been some reaffirmation of attention to virtual worlds. Its not going away now is it!
[...] featuring the anthropologists Tom Boellstorff and Celia Pearce (pdf file), when I stumbled upon a great interview Dusan Writer had with Tom about Culture, Techne and Virtual Worlds. It made me think about what we [...]
On 02.28.09 Terry Beaubois said:
It may be the case that he is accurately reflecting HIS experiencing in SL.
I remember my parents telling me that there is no such thing as a “bored” person, only “boring” people, and if you’re having boring time (i.e. “like watching paint dry”), well, guess what?
SL allows each individual to “bring it” with them. I have found SL to be a environment of some of the most creative, interesting, funny, talented people on the planet. It also offers an international environment in which we can all communicate.
Questioning the future and validity of Virtual Environments such as Second Life is being like the people who opposed the development of trains “because if humans traveled over 35 miles an hour they would suffocate” (this is true – people were concerned about that)
or
like when Alexander Graham Bell took the invention of the telephone to Western Union and they asked him “why would our telegraph operators want to talk to each other?” (Thanks for that one, Pathfinder!)
And as far as IBM having visionary leadership, or being a bellwether of technology let’s not forget:
“I think there is a world market for maybe five computers.”
- Thomas Watson, Chairman of IBM, 1943
There are many extremely intelligent and talented individuals that work at IBM who were in SL for a long time before they could convince the suits that it was a valid platform, but then IBM came rushing into SL like Al Haig ran into the hospital when Reagan was shot, claiming “ok, I’m in charge here” and everyone knew that they weren’t.
Not having success in SL is a combination of not setting expectations correctly, not understanding SL’s strengths and limitations, and LL not yet creating the “mission critical” platform that will eventually dominate the Virtual Environment worlds, by fully supporting the people trying to use it.
I’m working with an IBM person currently on, what to me is, one of the most import areas ever – helping blind people be able to successfully use SL. IBM can and will make significant contributions to virtual environment technologies as things settle in and we all get back to work on making this work, instead of taking potshots over minor setbacks, and thinking that somehow SL is a “build it and they will come” magical world. Success will come through applied understanding, not by slipshod slapping things up in a manner that no one in their right mind would do in RL.
To Linden Lab’s credit they have been doing their business out in front of everyone for years. Those of us who are sincerely interested in eventually having a stable, dependable, reliable Virtual Environment in which we can prototype objects, spaces, buildings and communities (be they for tinies or real life, fantasy builds or RL builds); and import and export files (including 3D) easily, support LL’s efforts to reach that level with their software. From what I understand about LL’s plans, 2009 could be a great leap forward for us all and the competition that is coming along will be great incentive for LL to achieve what they can.
I continue to support Linden Lab’s efforts with Second Life, and continue to work in SL. I welcome IBM’s incredible talents and resources in helping SL succeed, and after the “hype years” die down, believe that we will see virtual environment technology as world changing as the internet and the www.
To paraphrase the famous philosopher, LouieCK – “people are sitting in chairs, 30,000 feet in the air, going over 500 mph, getting from New York to San Francisco in 5 hours………complaining about the 20 minute delay in boarding the plane.” The spoiled generation. : )
So I made an educated guess — and clearly said it was a guess — and promised to update if I heard more. Then I heard more, and I ran it.
But let me take a moment to address some of the more ridiculous statements circulating recently:
The premise that Reuters should have “scooped” every big SL story is the most asinine thing I’ve heard in months. We were there to have an independent, skeptical, non-fanboy, informed view on all things SL and VWs, and I’m pretty proud of what we did. No one paying attention to Reuters/SL would have been suckered by Ginko and the other “banks”, an obvious fraud other “journalists” were too busy throwing “hottest male avatar” polls to pay mind.
And since we’re talking IBM specifically, let me relate an anecdote about a story we “missed”: One day 30 avs showed up on Reuters island waving anti-IBM placards and /shouting “strike!”. I clicked their profiles, and every single avatar in the scrum was less than three days old. They told me their grievances, and when I asked their RL names, they said “we can’t tell you, we’ll get in trouble for protesting!”
Bunch of wankers — I gave them no press.
Lastly, I just want to address the oft-quoted “watching paint dry” remark. It was a shoot-from-the-hip line and I probably would have said something different had I more than 25 minutes to write that piece. But honestly, even after 18 months immersed in people who love SL, and having gave it chance and chance again, I still think “dancing” in a virtual nightclub is deathly boring.
That’s not a slam on people who think it’s “ZOMG GREATEST TECH EVAR!!!1″ If you like it, go nuts. I just earnestly believe based on thousands of hours of first-hand observation that Second Life in its present form will never appeal to more than a small niche community of people it “clicks” with. Second Life’s recent history bears out that I’m on to something, I think. And despite the fondest of memories I retain for my time in Second Life, and despite personal hopes all my friends there (and Linden Lab too) prosper, I’m not going to lie about where I think it’s heading.
Eric was on Metanomics way back when, with reps from media giants CNN and CMP…and Prokofy Neva. You can read the whole thing here . Here are a few quotes that seem particularly relevant today (along with comments from Rhonda iReport and Prokofy):
ERIC REUTERS: Sure. Again, than, you very much for having me. It’s a pleasure to be here. I think it’s funny. Reuters, their history in Second Life, goes back to before I’d been here. I’ve been with Reuters, I’m coming up on my one year anniversary right now. But Reuters’ presence started in around October 2006, I believe. But, first of all, just in terms of Reuters’ strategy, I mean I think Reuters is trying to position itself globally as a leader in technology stories, as on the cutting edge, as an organization that goes beyond just perhaps some of the competing newswires like AP or even Bloomberg, to find sort of newer, more cutting edge, more avant garde stories, and, of course, Second Life is where so much of that goes on. But also, just in terms of ROI, to mention what John said, I mean Reuters came in. They had an island built, which is still sort of my home here in Second Life. But really, although it pains me greatly to say this, I am not paid all that much. So when you think about that
ROBERT BLOOMFIELD: You’re a reporter though, aren’t you?
ERIC REUTERS: I am a reporter.
ROBERT BLOOMFIELD: I thought reporters got these enormous salaries.
ERIC REUTERS: Clearly, at Cornell School of Management you’re not looking at the journalism industry that carefully.
ROBERT BLOOMFIELD: No. I’m wondering, you’re saying even within journalism–and reporters I know do struggle. You’re thinking that, even on that scale, you’re not in it for the money.
ERIC REUTERS: No, I’m really not. I’m really not. I mean part of the reason I’m here personally is because I find Second Life absolutely fascinating. And I think no one anticipated, and it’s not just my interest, but also Reuters’ interest, is how complex of a creation Second Life has become. And when you sort of bring together all these metaphors of virtual geography, of a currency, of land that you can build on or sell, I mean I think of some of the stories that I’ve been writing about for the past year, with intellectual property issues, with a recent story I wrote about ad farms, which brings in sort of zoning issues. Stories about Second Life’s currency. This is far more complex than I think anyone realized.
But just to get back to what I was saying earlier about ROI, which is, Reuters had a start up cost. They had to build the island. They had to set up a presence. They had to put in the infrastructure within Reuters as a wire to sort of acknowledge Second Life and come into it. Except now, really, all of Reuters’ expenses are what they pay me, the monthly fees on our island. So what we’re talking about is that Reuters reaches out to the 1.2 million people who are in Second Life every 60 days. It is a tremendous amount of press that Reuters is getting. A lot of knowledge of people who are understanding what Reuters is, what Reuters does, who perhaps wouldn’t otherwise have that. So really, I mean I think they’re extending their brand in a way on a very little expenditure that I think perhaps other organizations might follow suit.
RHONDA IREPORT: Well, we started our project taking absolute numbers out of the equation for a very specific reason because we were very interested in trends and not absolutes. The numbers here, frankly, for a company of our size are miniscule. If you stare at a number for very long, you sort of lose the meaning of why you’re here in the first place. So we look at diversity of stories. We look at the types of people who are coming to our classes we hold, a weekly event, every Tuesday at our iReport HUD. It has two purposes. One is to gather the iReport community together so that they can share stories, talk about unfolding stories, talk about things they want to cover. We cover stories that have been written in the past week. We also try to impart, if you will, what we can bring to the equation, so we help people understand how to take a good photo, how to write good copy, how to write a good headline and give back, if you will, to the community. That’s really important to us is to play equal part in that dialogue. So we look at trends, and the trends for us have been very encouraging and in the right direction. We also see activity flow just like we do in the Real World. It’s easy to start mapping the news stories that come on iReport with the activity in the world and the requisite media coverage so it’s an interesting trend coverage, but we don’t look at absolutes.
ERIC REUTERS: I would like to echo what Rhonda said, and I think that Reuters has a similar policy. Reuters is a global newswire, and we could write a story that Matt Drudge links to about Hillary Clinton or whatever that gets tens of millions of hits. So in the grand Reuters scheme of things, what we do in Second Life is–while it’s important here in Second Life, it’s very, very small in the grand scheme of what Reuters is. So of course, we want more journalism. We want better stories. But I don’t really think that we spend our time worrying or angsting over are people going to Reuters first versus iReport or Prok’s blog or any of the other news sources available throughout Second Life. But I’m really sort of privileged in that our mission here is just to do more quality journalism, to cover stories or angles that perhaps other people haven’t or haven’t with the same depth. And rather than sort of worrying about how many page hits we’re getting every month, as some new media outlets do, we’re more about making for the hundreds of thousands of people who are in Second Life associate the Reuters name and the Reuters brand with quality journalism. So in that, actually, I feel very fortunate as a journalist. I mean that’s a dream assignment.
ERIC REUTERS: Well, really, I want to talk about two stories. The first one is, I guess, Metaverse wide, which is, at least to me, it’s incredibly obvious how successful this metaphor is, how addictive, how engaging, how new, how sticky Virtual Worlds is. But what I’m really kind of agnostic about is whether it’s going to be Linden Lab’s Second Life that goes on to become the Virtual World that is going to expand wildly and whether that everyone in America and everyone in the world is really going to be engaged with. And I think that’s very much in Linden Lab’s own hands. That, to me, is the big story of the next year, which is, is it Second Life that is the Virtual World that takes off, or is it something else, or is it something we haven’t seen yet. And we’re going to find out.
With regard to Second Life specifically, the story that I have my eye most on is probably Open Sim, which is that you look at all the big stories of 2007, look at casinos, the governance issues, tax issues, intellectual property issues. Once Open Sim really gets up and running
ROBERT BLOOMFIELD: Eric, can I just ask you to explain to our listeners what Open Sim is?
ERIC REUTERS: Oh, sure. Of course. I’ve written a few stories on it. Open Sim is basically a group of developers have sort of approximately how Linden Lab servers work, based on sort of reverse engineering some things they figured out once the viewer code went into the Open Source domain. And now there is code that you can download to host your own server. It’s not Second Life, but it mimics all the functionality of that. And we’re starting to see these very primitive grids, which are completely independent of the Second Life grid. That businesses are starting or hosting their own sims, and it’s Second Life except with zero oversight, with zero connection to Linden Lab. So right now Linden Lab has sort of been the 800 pound gorilla. Everything that they decide happens, and the rest of us just sort of deal with it, write with it and pontificate about it. But, over the next year, that is increasingly going to change, and that’s going to be something fascinating that’s going to change all the rules. So I’m going to be watching that very carefully.
PROKOFY NEVA: I’ll just say I totally disagree with that analysis, but I won’t take the floor.
Oops…my attempt to show when other text intervened wasn’t successful…take a look at the full transcript to make sure you aren’t misinterpreting transitions from one quote to another.
[...] Rivers Run Red saved a client over $1 million dollars with a presence in Second Life using their Immersive Workspaces (TM) solution (in the comments of this post). [...]
On 03.01.09 Mary said:
I have used the OmniDate virtual dating function on personalquest.com and it is actually a lot of fun. It is nice, as a woman, to have that ‘date’ experience before deciding if I am ready to meet someone in person.
On 03.01.09 Prokofy Neva said:
Let’s go over this in more detail, shall we?
1. Eric nee Reuters Krangel was at Columbia Journalism school when he got this Reuters SL gig. Don’t forget that it was Adam Reuters who first opened the bureau with a huge splash, but then sort of wandered away, after he got the Davos interview with Mitch Kapor in February 2007, when Mitch basically said, don’t buy any new land, as we’re looking for the “liquidity event” and planning to opensource the servers, so land will devalue. Small wonder when the Geek Chief (then CEO) says stuff like this, that there isn’t a huge swarm to buy land from consumers, but rather a huge swarm of corporations having a look-see.
SL Reuters was a huge opportunity for Eric, walking right into a wire service position before he’d even graduated, and not having to go slog it out at the Potatoe Picayune in Maine like many other J-school grads have to do to earn their spurs. He got a low salary because he was a college kid soon to graduate basically going into something like a glorified internship. Because Adam lost interest he had the space to himself.
2. So remember, then, Reuters already paid a journalist probably a lot more handsomely, but he lost interest because for him, as a tech and economics reporter, there wasn’t enough of a story in SL and not enough glory within the Reuters pantheon, so he moved on to other tech stories. Adam Pasick wasn’t a lifestyle/culture/etc. reporter or interestd in those topics.
3. In fairness to Eric — and I don’t like being fair to him and have been probably the most harshly critical of him in my blog — he reported more stories than Hamlet nee Linden Au reported or ever *will* report, and far more critically, and with far more journalistic curiousity and skill, quite frankly.
Hamlet disingenuously cites a list of Reuter misses as if Reuters didn’t break a whole bunch of others stories Hamlet wouldn’t touch because they were too critical of LL or the geek magic circle. Eric broke the story on the real identity of the character who ripped of Stroker Serpentine’s beds; he did quite a few stories on the Lindens’ island price hikes and such; he was far more probing and interviewed more people per square inch than Hamlet, like a real wire service reporter, than Hamlet will ever interview in a million years.
Hamlet runs a blog, and is lazy, and lets other people report for him live, without editing. He doesn’t go around trying to “get the story,” he just pontificates and does advertorials and informercials, “oooh this shiny gadget” “ohhh that shiny island” “ooohhh here’s an event from my sponsor Rezzable that really rocks” etc. That’s fine, but let’s not compare an inhouse organ-turned-outhouse-lapdog with *Reuters* for God’s sake.
4. Eric, who is a geek and originally educated as a geek and went to j-school as a second career so to speak, although still young, rapidly realized that among his peers, SL wasn’t cool. Geeks in New York in particular just don’t like SL. They think it’s for losers. It meant suffering constant embarassment at parties and such. And the Reuters top dude, who I happened to bump into at a dinner and mention SL, also didn’t appear to be very thrilled with SL. The virtual bureau was something that happened once when two enthusiastic execs, Philip and a Reuters exec, met at one of those fancy tekkie conferences and yakked it up at the spur of the moment on a high of irrational exhuberence and likely other intoxicants, and then the staff had to follow through on the next day..and the day after…and then management got disinterested and they all wound it down. Happens all the time with management enthusiasms that staff don’t like.
4. Eric could have nevertheless turned this low-paying first-job-after-J-school into something more than he did. He was the most visible journalist in SL during the height of its hype season when everybody from CBS to Wired to CNN was covering it and in it. And all he could do was get a job at Silicon Alley? Well, I suppose any journalist these days, especially “print,” is facing very tough times.
5. Great job or no, Eric could have left gracefully, even though he didn’t leverage his position, but instead, he decided to try to buy himself more street cred with his snarky peers in the Gawker type set by being a douche. I am still trying to understand the animosity involved as nobody really did anything to harm Eric and he only thrived through SL and built his resume. What’s especially offensive of his critique is to make *us* seem like we are uncritical fanatic Kool-Aid drinking loons, when we are even more critical than Eric of LL and SL. In fact, Eric, as ultimately a Reuters suit, would wipe all our comments off the Reuters blog out of a sense of “corporate niceness” and solidarity with fellow corporate Linden Lab at some level.
6. Ian leaving IBM strikes me as in fact INDEED a signal from IBM that they are winding down all this virtual world sillyness and you have to expect that people like Eric will read that obvious signal even as IBM denies it. I think there are different factions at IBM. But it sounds like Eric simply didn’t research this story at all to cover his ass, i.e. by calling various insiders within…gasp…Second Life that he might have logged on to talk to.
I think for a time, IBM, like some goofy old dude of 78 marrying a 20-something to relive his youth and make sure he didn’t miss out on everything before he died, was chasing after SL because they thought it might be something like the PC they missed. They fooled around for a few years and then realized, oh, it’s not. Or at least, oh, it will take a lot more time and won’t be a mass market thing. So they began moving on. They are said to be more in opensim, where they can sandbox around and fool around with the software more than they can in SL. Zha’s interoperability experiment is going nowhere. Even the very big boosters of it in LL were given the brake while the entire thing underwent a very severe review by new management. New management is not interested in opensourcing the server code and interoperability is something they’ve only pursued with IBM…and it hasn’t happened for more than a year and…they’ve just outsourced the entire thing to MMOX where it will languish or bog down in committee. In part, it’s hard. It part they should NOT move to interoperability so casually as they will flush out all the content in SL to pirates. This is a huge battle and I think in part LL’s new alphabet suits pay attention to these concerns more than they did when Cory Linden decided it.
IBM may have some stake in *appearing* to look like they still support SL and still use it for meetings but they have definitely ratcheted down the enthusiasm. You will not see Zha racing on here to say the blog wasn’t updated because…because…”I had to go shopping!”
7. A story that I thought was utterly fake and concocted was the IBM “strike” which was merely the publicity stunt of some union in Italy or something deciding that they could really chafe IBM’s butt by going inside SL, which seemed to be an IBM darling at the time, and using it to strike — it was a stunt, a 3-day wonder that was not something “indigenous” to SL. Eric was right to give that story a pass — although if it had been me, I would have traced the entire fakeness to its roots — the one faction in Italy, the 3-day-olds, etc. and more to the point, I’d have interviewed some of those 200 IBMers we know are in SL who were *not* on strike and *didn’t even know about it*. Yeah, IBM’s a big place, but please…It was just some leftist fake people’s uprising shtick of the sort you see all the time and wasn’t something germane to SL per se other than that parcels were exploited in a publicity stunt.
I also want to set the record straight for both of these macho gonzo journos Hamlet and Eric.
A. I’m the one who broke the story about Copybot for the Herald. Hamlet hates me so much because of my valid and persistent criticism of him that he couldn’t even to my article that broke this story — linking instead to a later story by Pixeleen Mistral. I went on to cover many important stories about Copybot facing profound pressure from the Sheep and other vested parties of the sort Eric or Hamlet have never had to face because they never challenged the powers that be to the extent I have.
B. The Herald also broke the original story about Ginkos *years* before Eric got all exercised about it when Duranske put a bee in his bonnet, and massively.com/Tatero Nino also ran many stories on Ginkos before there even *was* a Reuters. At least he reserves his barb about coverage of “only hot men” for Hamlet — the rest of us were assiduously covering Ginko’s. I got some of the best live reporting from the floor of some of the “stock exchanges” and it was later picked up and used by mainstream media.
Eric could never understand my critique of Duranske as someone getting the story wrong for motivations that seemed to have everything to do with trying to make SL appear as a haven for crime and corruption that only his tribe of lawyers could protect the deluge of corporations from. As soon as Duranske figured out there were not going to be any big corporations requiring his services for these things and that the Lindens themselves dealt with crime and some of the corporations eased out, he went and got a real job.
Ultimately, Eric suffers from geek class warfare syndrome. He can’t seem to affirm the identity of his own tribe of geeks and elite cultural workers without putting down people of mass culture. Lots of people love dancing and cybersex in SL. It’s not for the urbane sophisticates of gawker.com So what? Leave them alone? I find it boring to dance most of the time too, but given how many other interesting things there are to do in SL, so what?
The snarky elitist geeky metrosexual sort of culture that Erik imbibed in school and regurgitates in his online tech gossip sheet now once seemed impervious and unstoppable. But with the Recession, they, too have gotten a slap in the face. Valleywag.com is going under. Even wire reporters are getting fired, along with print reporters. Journalists are going into government or non-profits where perhaps they always belonged.
Dusan, thank you for setting the record straight. So many misguided writings about our industry that are thrown out there into the mix so willy-nilly. You sir, are a God send.
On 03.02.09 Frank Herkins said:
Eric Krangel is well-known to spread misinformation about Second Life.
Also – since when protesters that don’t give their name to journalists are ‘wankers’? This is shameful, Krangel.
[...] lo que más extraña es que Linden Lab lo hiciera de una forma confidencial. Cómo menciona Dusan Writer en su blog, aunque LL es dueña de su base de datos, ellos adquieren publicidad de medios como los [...]
I really don’t understand why Eric has to be burned down here. He raises some valid points, though somewhat bitterly perhaps, but as observations & news they are worth mentioning and talking about, but you and Hamlet seem to be out to get ‘him’.
For example, IBM’s evangelists have become a lot more quiet everywhere. The ‘case study’ is far from conclusive ‘evidence’ IBM is still in SL at the same level they were 3/4 years ago. (The case study is shallow and quite frankly, a little bit of a joke – not unlike most things I’ve seen from IBM in the public space on virtual worlds: PPT’s on immersive presentation, the horrible presentation spaces in ActiveWorlds and the hilarious Lotus integration video just to name a few).
You don’t have to agree, but these are his observations, and they make a lot of sense to a lot of people (as well as SL being a niche product and ‘SL dancing is not for everyone’).
Maybe I read a lot of Erics findings and ‘frustrations’ in my own, which is why I am a little surprised to see the pitchforks here
On 03.06.09 Doreen Garrigus said:
Oh, Dusan, that’s lovely and heartbreaking.
On 03.07.09 Lanciabaciera said:
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[...] and he does himself no favours with credibility. After taking snipes at New World Notes in the comments of Dusan’s blog, I’m certainly left with no doubt at his lack of [...]
[...] and he does himself no favours with credibility. After taking snipes at New World Notes in the comments of Dusan’s blog, I’m certainly left with no doubt at his lack of [...]
[...] of economist Edward Castranova’s second book, Exodus to the Virtual World (read my commentary here). In that book, Castranova argued that virtual worlds are both fun, and that they can manipulated [...]
On 03.09.09 Prokofy Neva said:
Robert Bloomfield is ridiculous. I’m glad that you have the courage to criticize him even though you are sponsoring him.
He’s typical of the narrow-minded specialists that you find in the university now, especially in business, who completely repudiate the humanities and don’t seem to be encumbered by any humanities education themselves.
Perhaps you know the story of C.P. Snow and his essay “The Two Cultures”. At the time he wrote that critique, the pendulum was at another place in the arc, and scientists were feeling under appreciated in the 1950s, and trying to gain access to power in a society dominated by those who were educated in the humanities.
Now, the pendulum has swung all the way over to science, and far more than Snow saw it, to the point of utterly crushing the humanities as non-fact based. I can just hear some of the loons of MMOX and AWGroupies crabbing every five minutes that a claim made by cultural anthropology is “not a falsifiable proposition” or contains a logical fallacy blah blah.
Tom indeed spent a lot of time inworld. He formed a large group of enthusiasts and met with them every week to talk about their experiences. He interviewed avatars endlessly. Tom is all about inworld. There was no ivory tower. And I’m not seeing what is so precious about “Open Sim” here, as if you can’t experiment in Second Life. Huh?
As for Castronova, I find his book sinister, quite frankly. You don’t go far enough in explaining it: what he actually advocates is figuring out how the autonomous nervous system experiences “fight or flight” and “pleasure or pain” work and then hooking people up to virtual worlds and MMORPGs better — and taking the elements of games and incorporating them into real life, like “The Ministry of Fun”. Awful stuff.
What I find duplicitous, too, is that these figures are riding the tide of virtual worlds and social media and all the freedoms and chaos and creative destruction blah blah that they imply, but then inserting very authoritarian agendas on to them.
Take this quote, from an interview from Beth Noveck, who is now in the U.S. government’s Office of Technology, where in fact enthusiasts have just inserted a wiki for civil servants to work:
“When we talk about citizen participation in government, we’re so often talking about tapping into people’s feelings and judgments, says Noveck. Peer-to-Patent [Noveck's crowd-sourcing of patent critiques--PN] works by focusing on fact-based expertise. “The idea of a free-for-all, of putting something up on a wiki,” Noveck says, “is terrible.” But when you architect a system with structured roles and group checks on individuals, it seems like wider civic engagement online is possible.”
Indeed. It’s like they are inflicting the wiki only to destroy, then laying over that a terrible grid of social controls where there are “group checks on individuals”.
My fierce attacks against tekkies, which you only mildly echo here, are pretty much based on their repudiation and scorn of the humanities, even as they use completely outrageous non-scientific methods themselves.
On 03.09.09 A Draken said:
Bloomfield and other economists/stockbrokers should read The (Mis)Behavior of Markets by Benoit Mandelbrot and Richard L. Hudson (2004). Mandelbrot brought us fractals and wrote as early as 1961 on the non-linearity of finance. The point being that all the math used by brokers and most economists is based on an erroneous assumption.
Also consult Nelson and Winter (1982) An evolutionary theory of economic change. Winter points out errors made by the standard economic theory.
Winter and Mandelbrot do not necessarily agree, except that classic economic theory is flawed and does not describe what empirical evidence shows.
Well, certainly I wouldn’t go so far as to say Bloomfield is ridiculous, and that certainly he isn’t extrapolating to the degree that Castranova does which, I agree, is sinister (and again, I reference back to my original post on his last book).
Bloomfield’s intent was perhaps far less sinister – to use the “language” of code and testable hypotheses to encourage “world developers” to expand their repertoire beyond the code and into discussions of human sociality and culture.
Unfortunately, he couples this with the claim that theory needs data when perhaps a better model is that theories are only testable via hypotheses, and that hypotheses can be tested only through research. Where he REALLY falls down is in assuming that research methods that include observation, which is a significant basis of the humanities, arrive at fundamentally less significant truths than hard facts.
If we were really all rational actors, then maybe we wouldn’t be in this mess we’re in, but the reality is we’re not, which supports the argument that perhaps science leaves off at the humanities rather than the humanities leaving off at science.
On 03.09.09 Goedeke Messmer said:
The classic definition of science is only the systematic application of knowledge, which means butterfly collecting (as long as you classify your collection’s specimens) is science.
Quantitative people deride “butterfly collection” as not “real science” because it is not predictive. Experiments *require* a theory propose a result before the experiment, so the theory can either become stronger (the expected result) or be thrown into doubt (an unexpected, but more interesting result).
Anthropologists are mostly butterfly collectors. Little experimentation has occurred and the morality of such experimentation is very in doubt. Read the human subjects rules for any university funded research to see how much damage the excesses of the 60s and 70s did to the field. Virtual worlds provide a unique opportunity to create “safer” experiments though, and so I can see how people from the quantitative world would *expect* anthropologists to want do such experiments.
Butterfly collectors aren’t used to running the risk of a theory being shaken by experimentation though, and the idea of building such experiments is tainted by the past, so I doubt one will see many.
Quantitative science does represent a maturation of a science though… chemistry was once “butterfly collecting” (the line between alchemy and chemistry was blurry for a very long time). I have my doubts about anthropology ever crossing that line though because the data set, at the end of the day, is one.
On 03.09.09 Riven Homewood said:
I found this show very disappointing. I made time out of a busy day to attend it because I was looking forward to hearing two highly-intelligent explorers of virtual worlds present their insights. Having sponsored 2 discussions that Tom led inworld, I am well aware of what an excellent experience that can be. Instead, I got way too much Bloomfield and not nearly enough Boellstorff and Pierce.
Bloomfield’s lengthy piece at the end seemed more focused on “hey academics, here’s a new way to get funding” than on any useful research agenda. The last thing we need inworld is a pack of newbie graduate students who believe SL is a platform they can manipulate for their dissertation research.
On 03.09.09 Robert Bloomfield/ Beyers Sellers said:
Thanks for the thoughtful responses. This is not the first time I have been criticized for expressing this type of viewpoint, and it won’t be the last. (Take a look at the responses to my first post on Terra Nova from June 2007.. Here are just a few quick responses.
First, theories in both anthropology and economics purport to impose useful structure on the world as we see it. Empirical research–whether participant observation, econometric analysis or experimentation—gives researchers a way to change those theories for the better. The more convincing the data and method, the more likely it is to change the mind of someone who has already accepted the theory and is using it to structure their own view of the world. Casual interviews and observations, punditry–even fiction and poetry–can provide helpful evidence on ways to see the world. But the softer the methods, the easier it is for everyone, researchers and readers alike, to see the results as supporting whatever they want to and already believe. Harder evidence puts more stress on the theory. Yes, Boellstorff is right that lots of empirical research is not particularly persuasive, and that some questions are not amenable to measurement. But when you see a tool that allows you to test *some* theories in a more rigorous way, I think it is a mistake to reject these methods wholesale.
To apply this to the current financial crisis, I would argue that many risk models were simply not tested enough before being implemented. The theories seemed to make sense, but the experts knew that they were being applied in settings that didn’t exactly match the underlying assumptions. (In particular, market outcomes don’t follow the assumed bell curve perfectly–extremely bad news is slightly overrepresented). However, no one bothered to test whether those rather slight mismatches result in major problems. Since everything seemed to be going well, everyone was happy with storytelling.
Second, my purpose was to point out experimentation as a possible *addition* to the pantheon of anthropological research, not a replacement. Of course participant observation is a helpful method, and I am glad people are doing it–especially as a first pass when theory is very rough. But many of the social sciences that resist experimentation and statistical methods fail to push their theories far enough. This lets people cling to their own pet theories more easily, rather than having to justify them and refine them as people provide counterexamples that aren’t easily wished away.
As an example, I would point out that A. Draken is right–for decades people doubted many of the premises of traditional economics. But no one bought into the alternative–behavioral economics–until repeated experiments showed that it had greater predictive power. Now, behavioral theories abound in economics, for the simple reason that it was so hard to argue with the evidence.
Third, I am surprised (again!) by the resistance of virtual world devotees to the idea that researchers might conduct what are essentially clinical trials for virtual worlds–particularly from Dusan, who deals with drug companies as part of his day job. Drug companies do clinical trials before releasing a drug to the world. Why shouldn’t virtual world makers do the same before they release a world to the world? What better way to learn whether a certain type of orientation or technical feature would reduce griefing or some other undesirable behavior–for, as Dusan puts it, ‘the shared betterment of society’. It might have been nice if we had done some clinical trials with the risk models that turned out to have some rather awful side effects in our financial markets!
What surprises me even more is this: why assume that, because I propose clinical trials based on anthropological theory, that I must think anthropology is bunk, and that I must want to start drugging and vivisecting virtual natives. I wouldn’t have proposed these notions unless I thought anthropological theories could actually help us predict the development of culture in virtual worlds. And hey–if I wanted to experiment of residents of an already existing world, I would have proposed that. But I think that is a terrible idea, in part because it would largely defeat the purpose of a controlled experiment in which the researchers are able to manipulate their variables.
Naturally, this won’t be the last word–maybe we need a Bloomfield-Castronova-Malaby-Boellstorff debate on Metanomics sometime soon.
Rob
p.s. Riven, sorry you got ‘way too much Bloomfield.’ I am still learning how to get out of the way and let my guests have the floor. Maybe next time….
Thanks for stating your concerns concisely and straightforwardly, Robert. My major response is what you are framing as an opposition between anthropological and economic theory is actually not that at all. The limits of experimentation in the *natural sciences* are well-known, as we have plenty of examples of “hard sciences” that do not rely to a great degree on experimentation at all (geology, paleontology, astronomy, to name a few).
The problem here is one of scientific epistemology. It seems that it is often those outside of the natural sciences (I’m sorry to say, most often in economics) who are unaware of the epistemological issues here. I remember hearing a wonderful presentation on river formation from a geologist, for whom the key aim of science was *not* prediction, but rather an understanding of the specific processes at work in a specific site at a specific time. Much of science is this. We do not seek only to predict, for as Maxwell has told us, how regular, how timeless, do we actually think the world is?
What is the difference? What makes some science more particularist and some more generalizable? It is not hard or soft, it is a question of time and change. See my post here on Terra Nova about this issue: http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2008/05/virtual-general.html. In short, experimental methodologies and “exploratory” ones are actually all on a spectrum, with true replicability (there’s the importance of scientific epistemology to this discussion again) impossible. When we have good reasons to expect that conditions are not in the midst of significant and fundamental change, we can tack closer toward the experimental end of the spectrum in our methods, but when we have many contingencies in play (especially with humans involved, but this is not necessary), then particularist inquiries help us get at the processes in place in specific circumstances.
This is, in a way, the Darwinian legacy in science — a recognition of the limits of our ability to generalize in the midst of a messy and open-ended (not law-driven) world.
Speaking of predictability or generalizability thus excludes a lot of what actual scientists actually do, and comes to stand instead as a bludgeon that some (social) scientists use to denigrate other fields. To hold predictability and testing up as the sine qua non of knowledge production is I am sorry to say, to demonstrate a somewhat impoverished notion of what empirical inquiry can and should be.
This is an interesting discussion, and I think it would be better if it didn’t become a debate as Rob suggest – I don’t see much to gain in partisan ‘my science is harder than your science’ squabble. We’ve got uncharted seas in front of us and an argumentative, greedy, egotistical ship of fools is not good company.
I added “greedy” to the list since empirical science and economics being mentioned made me think of the US congress playing grab-ass while the economy craters. Do any of you really think what happened to the economy was because of a bad set of scientific theory? Because that is what it sounded like. What are the metrics/equations for greed, graft, unaccountability, and then raw panic and fear? The reason why we have “soft” science is so far, humans are not controlled nor fathomed that precisely. Maybe at singularity 1.9
Really, prok, the pendulum is set to science? Maybe only relative to humanities, but with science literacy at large at about the feral neko level, I don’t expect the average avatar checking or understanding the methodology or statistical strength of anything soon, sadly enough.
Next, there seems to be a suspicion and fear of experimentation in virtual worlds, as if the only way to test and understand human behavior is a mad scientist/SciFi scenario. Most social and other scientists do follow codes of ethics and otherwise respect the privacy and safety of their subjects. If you want to be paranoid, there are plenty others watching your buying and other behaviors, and they are not some academics out for a good paper, but blood sucking leeches you find after swimming in the slip streams of media and merchandising.
Overall, I have to agree with Garret. Dusan is calling out quotes that make me wince, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Not being articulated is what aspects of human communication are being engaged in SL that are not engaged in a VTC, telecon, or tele-web meeting? What are the pros and cons of meeting someone in SL versus RL? What will it really take to operationalize virtual worlds to replace getting on a plane and flying to conduct real business in meatspace?
On 03.09.09 MarillaAnne said:
Dusan, thanks for explaining it so that I could understand that what I thought I heard Bloomfield saying was indeed what Bloomfield was saying.
Although … I really hate to give up the idea that I was just hugely distracted and must surely have misunderstood something.
Dusan – thanks for posting this commentary. All these comments are great.
The problem with what Rob did wasn’t just what Rob said, but that he tacked his commentary onto the end of what was supposed to be a conversation, with no advance warning and no opportunity for Celia and I to respond. That’s not dialogue.
There are broader issues here that Rob is not addressing. To claim, for instance, that “the softer the methods, the easier it is for everyone, researchers and readers alike, to see the results as supporting whatever they want to and already believe” is simply incorrect. It is ideology parading as analysis. That statement places all methods on a single scale from “hard” to “soft” without a clear explanation of what that metaphor of softness and hardness references. Methods differ in a range of ways – that is, along a range of axes – and they cannot be lined up like ducks in a row on a single scale from hard to soft.
It’s funny that Rob says the following to you, Dusan: “I am surprised (again!) by the resistance of virtual world devotees to the idea that researchers might conduct what are essentially clinical trials for virtual worlds–particularly from Dusan, who deals with drug companies as part of his day job. Drug companies do clinical trials before releasing a drug to the world. Why shouldn’t virtual world makers do the same before they release a world to the world?”
Perhaps the difference is that human beings aren’t the same thing as drugs? If you take a certain chemical (i.e. drug) with the same structure in the same amount, you can assume the effect is the same. 1 pill of aspirin is interchangeable with another pill of aspirin if they’re made with the same concentration, etc. But people (and many other things in the world) are not so interchangeable.
I think of my work in Indonesia. The issue is not only that it’s not feasible to put one group of Indonesians on one island, and another group on another island, and see which ones end up defining themselves as “gay” in some fashion. The issue is that these Indonesian identities have come into being in historical time, and you can’t set up an experiment to show why these identities have come into being. This whole debate is a great example of why it’s helpful to look beyond virtual worlds and see how many of these issues are relevant to actual-world cultures too.
As I’ve said over and over, there are economists out there doing great work and really contributing to a better understanding of virtual worlds. But the experimental methods that seem to be favored by a good number of economists doing work in virtual worlds are not the only valid method (contra Castronova, and so far as I can tell, Bloomfield as well).
What is of the greatest concern to me is that based on some writings of Castronova, and the way Bloomfield set up our Metanomics event, they aren’t really listening. A particular approach from economics is getting set forth as the most valid method (even as the only legitimate method) for researching virtual worlds. And in this point in time when a vibrant, exciting, diverse community of researchers of virtual worlds is growing and forming, that kind of methodological partisanship is simply not helpful. More debate, more real conversation, is sorely needed.
On 03.10.09 Beyers Sellers said:
@Tom,since last June we have closed Metanomics with a short op-ed (usually, but not always, by me). When I write them, I do so after the pre-interview but before the show, and voice them at the very end. This format is pretty common in talk shows, but certainly makes it hard for the op-ed to be a ‘dialogue.’ If you have suggestions for other formats (including dropping this segment of the show, so we have more time for dialogue), I’d love to hear them.
On the substance of Tom’s remarks, let me say (again) that I don’t believe that the only way to do research is the way I do research. Thus, Tom and I are in strong agreement on his concluding point–let’s foster research with a variety of methods, relying on a variety of theories, addressing a variety of topics.
The funny thing is, I thought that is what I did, suggesting one possibility in particular. After our pre-interview discussion, and reading a number of studies by you and Celia (and some others in your journal)–and particularly thinking about our discussion of how small technical features of a virtual world might alter the culture that arises there–I thought to myself “wow, here is a great opportunity to wed some ideas that come a largely non-experimental discipline to experimental methods, and learn something new in a way that can both advance theory and have practical applications for world developers.”
So far, none of the reactions have made me question this original thought. They do, however, make me want to spend some time rethinking how to make this point without implying that cultural anthropologists are not ‘real scientists,’ that methods other than experimentation are invalid, and the like. Maybe anthropologists have heard one too many helpful suggestions like this….
The debate reminds me of one that has been happening in legal research. A handful of lawyers are now conducting statistical research actually trying to model and predict the decisions of judges, criminals and institutions. Justifying this addition to the literature is often taken as disparaging existing legal research methods. Some empiricists might make this argument, I think it is rather silly. But I think the opponents of empirical methods are on even weaker ground.
Great discussion. I take as a given that your intention was a good one, and I said that in my initial post, Rob…the purpose of the ‘Connecting the Dots’ is, I suppose, a chance to kick-start follow-up discussions, so I’m glad those discussions found a home here and elsewhere.
A few comments, I suppose. Rob, clearly it’s useful to review a range of methodologies and disciplines for the study of virtual and actual culture. I can’t help feeling like you’re arguing a particular mind set, and a particular bias, from a place that’s, hmmm, well, I hate to say it – but a little arrogant.
I would have LOVED to hear you say something along the following lines:
“Speaking with Celia and Tom, and having read some of their reviews and articles, I’ve become aware that the “hard science” of accounting and economics would be well served by methodologies that I might have, at one time, considered too “soft”. Because let me be the first to admit: human nature just isn’t as measurable and testable as us folks with our spread sheets and empirical tests might like.
“Take the financial crisis – the reality is, it would have been nice to properly test the theories of risk reduction or how markets move through hype cycles and bubbles. In spite our best efforts over 100s of years, however, we haven’t really come up with a good answer yet, so I won’t hold out a lot of hope that we’ll solve that problem in the near term, not on our own, anyways, and not easily.
“Human nature being what it is, and economists being human – we were perhaps overly anxious to put the models to work when Wall Street came calling – there’s a certain joy in getting work “into the real world”, these things can’t sit in a lab forever, our reasoning goes.
“But even if we HAD been able to empirically test, (and let me state my bias in saying that experimental accounting is the frame from which I view these issues), clearly even well-tested theories end up facing the messy, emotional, and behaviorally erratic fact of human nature. If we’ve learned anything in virtual worlds it’s that emotions can run high, and I believe they can run high in virtual worlds because when the hard science bumps up against those other, immeasurable things like creativity, love, passion, hope and fear – well, the two can sometimes be reconciled, but not always.
“What I’ve learned today is that there’s a wonderful combination of disciplines that have found a common ground – and the common ground are these virtual worlds where there are dreamers and artists, coders and academics, scientists and mathematicians, and people who treat these places as home.
“I’d hope that the tools with which virtual worlds can be built provide fertile opportunities for empirical studies across the disciplines – opportunities to measure social connectivity, to extrapolate data and test points, to study the exact impact of things like the Linden dollar supply or the cost of land. But I’d also hope that those of us in the ‘hard sciences’ can also learn, by virtue of being in a cross-disciplinary world, that there may be virtue and value in getting away from our spread sheets a little and looking thoughtfully at how people like Tom and Celia draw insights that are profound and meaningful, and do so not because they have more rows or columns in their spread sheets, but do so because they bring proven methodologies for extrapolating meaning from observation, from anecdote, from story, from the “mess” of human nature.
“The financial crisis shows us something important: the data points that don’t meet our bell curves are often the most important ones – those are the stories that happen at the edges, the ones that often include human emotions like hope, fear, and greed. Those edge cases, the ones that don’t meet our notions of a “homogeneous mass”, are the ones that hold some of the burning insights that can help us craft new ways forward in recognition of both provable and verifiable data, and our humanity.
“This is highly encouraging – this shared environment, these shared worlds, open the opportunity for us empiricists to sit down and understand how anthropology could very well be a missing piece in how we measure markets and human nature. And, I hope, can be a place where anthropologists can take advantage of the fact that some of the variables are controlled – intentionally or not, as we sometimes see with changes made by platform owners like the Lindens, or like Robin’s experiments in creating a new culture that suits a particular goal.”
“Virtual worlds offer a field in which we can both observe, through the endless data stream, the numbers and formulas and testable hypotheses, but they also offer the chance for folks like myself to embrace the concept that we do not live in intellectual silos anymore, we can not afford to sit in our arm chairs while the world shifts and changes and seemingly tilts on its axis into the future.
“Virtual worlds provide the hope that in this collapsed geography, in these new cultures, we can find clues to our own humanity, whether measured with yard sticks or whether measured in the stories we tell.”
On 03.10.09 IYan Writer said:
I’m surprised at the reception of Castranova’s book – I found it full of interesting ideas. What is sinister about extrapolating from an obvious trend and trying to find some lessons for the real world?
I agree with some comments re “too much Bloomfield” – I would think most people watch Metanomics for the guests, not for the host (as charming as Robert can be).
On 03.10.09 Robert Bloomfield/ Beyers Sellers said:
@Dusan, this is hardly the first time I have been called arrogant, and unless the call for “less Bloomfield” turns into “no Bloomfield,” I’m sure it won’t be the last.
Virtual worlds are indeed a useful common meeting ground for people with very different perspectives on research, politics and life. I think many of us are here precisely for this type of cross-pollination. If we are lucky, we will be able to move this particular conversation forward, and not get mired in the academic version of ‘culture wars.’
I’d like to append a little comment here about clinical trials. Robert is right, this is an area that we know something about, however he partly misses the mark – in fact, our entire business is based on the fact that the “empirical data” is less than ideal.
The reality of clinical trials is that they bump up against many of the same issues that have been discussed in these comments: there is a bell curve, so to speak….but what’s challenging isn’t the ‘homogeneous mass’ it’s the fact that most people aren’t ‘measurable’ against the criteria of clinical trials.
Most trials are organized to provide clarity of end points: usually mortality and morbidity. As such, they select patients based on criteria that will provide conclusive statistical direction to the results. Yes, this is empirical, and it’s useful, but our work is primarily focused on the fact that the vast majority of patients don’t fit the neat categories studied in trials – and so it takes observation, qualitative approaches, and judgment on behalf of professionals.
The idea that clinical trials can lead to cook book medicine (the application of empirical evidence to algorithms for patient care in all cases) is a fallacy, just as I believe there are few areas that involve human nature where empirical studies will ever be able to create formulas or algorithms to map out what people do, how they think, or their state of wellness.
To take a simple example: most clinical trials study heart drugs by recruiting patients who have heart disease. Simple enough – gives a nice “clean” end point. But the people who are EXCLUDED from the trials are more like what a physician SEES: the patients who also have diabetes, obesity, depression, or a host of other concomitant conditions.
As a result, physicians use the empirical evidence as a base line, but the reality of practice is they need to use anecdotes, personal experience (i.e. “stories”) to make decisions against those pesky patients who don’t conform to the data.
Finally, one of the challenges with clinical data is that much of it doesn’t include measurement of quality of life data…a significant oversight, especially in areas like oncology where there are marginal differences between mortality and morbidity results, and the impact of lower side effects can’t be quantified by simple “spread sheets” – how a patient feels about their treatment, the quality of their life on one drug over another – not usually measured, and even when it is there is dispute over the measurement scales.
Because of all these factors, the leading thinkers in the field of medicine, anyway, recognize the combination of evidence with clinical judgment and have created useful models that integrate empirical with qualitative methodologies.
I don’t disagree that the empirical data is the foundation piece in the case of medicine for testing efficacy and safety (let’s not talk about how even the approval of something so based on “hard science” can be impacted by human nature, politics and greed, OK?).
So you’re right – but please don’t hold clinical trials up as an example of a field that is able to provide a role model for an ‘empirical approach’ because the truth is far removed from that reality.
Castranova proposes that we take the lessons from how the users of virtual worlds can be manipulated through sensory programming and apply that lesson to manipulating users in the “real world” through similar approaches.
Look – it happens already. Stores program their environments with music, smell, sight, lights to try to get you to BUY more. Castranova takes this further, and proposes turning work into a programmed game where we remain productive because the “system” has been constructed with these findings in mind: that individuals can be manipulated to feel like they’re having more fun, even when it’s as boring as farming herbs in Warcraft for hours on end, or completing a “kill quest” that takes hours and hours of endless grinding.
A few select quotes from Castranova:
“Clearly, it is a challenge to make people happy through manipulation of the social order. Yet this is precisely the challenge that virtual-world designers have faced and mastered.”
“There is also a distinct relationship between motivational systems and human emotions. For one thing, emotions come later…stimuli that engage the motivational system more powerfully will have a greater effect on the emotional system….In other words, the game is designed to be so enjoyable and fun that you lose yourself in it.”
“This is clearly a fast-moving field, but the point is, joys, and probably fun too, can be obtained and even increased when a person’s environment is correctly designed.”
You don’t find anything, um, disturbing in Castranova’s proposal that we “manipulate the social order?”
I parallel this with the following quote:
“The intent is to change a mind so that its owner becomes a living puppet – a human robot – without the atrocity being visible from the outside. The aim is to create a mechanism in flesh and blood, with new beliefs and new thought processes inserted into a captive body. What that amounts to is (a race) always amenable to orders, like an insect to its instincts. (Edward Hunter, Brainwashing)”
On 03.10.09 IYan Writer said:
@Dusan
I think that you are, in effect, frightened by some phrases – and do not see the forest for the trees. The crux of Castranova’s position, as I understood it, was:
* there will come a time when virtual worlds will be in direct competition with real worlds (how many children play in the playgrounds today versus when we were young?)
* for the real world to compete, it has to change – because, right now, it is mostly no fun at all.
He then tried to show that some concepts we take for granted are proved false by the virtual environments – basically, how we perceive things like reward, fun, equality etc, and tried to apply the lessons learned by the virtual world designers in the real world.
An aside: It’s only in virtual worlds that there is an actual evolution of environments, because there is competition and things can change quickly – that’s why they are such great experimentation tools.
What’s wrong with shaping the environment? Do you have the same complaints against Friedman’s book “Hot, flat and crowded”, for example? It does the same thing – points out what works, what doesn’t and what should be done to ensure a sustainable future.
Do you think it is not shaped now? It definitely is – by the corporations, mass media, marketing departments, and some governments (although their influence wanes). What do you prefer – an environment focused on unbridled consumerism (which is, I think, what we have now), or one focused on the happiness of individuals?
Mind you – I come from an ex-communist country, so I am very familiar with the effects of over-shaping the environment. However, the current eco-political situation is a bad advertisement for the laissez-faire approach to it, too. There must be a middle way – and Castranova only tries to point out some potential paths.
celia a “well respected anthropologist?” who says?
You all are so FULL of it:0) At least her punditry on Interactive Design has over 20 years experience in the field to back up her views.
Celia Pearce/Biography
Celia Pearce is a game designer, author, researcher, teacher, curator and artist, specializing in multiplayer gaming and virtual worlds, independent, art, and alternative game genres, as well as games and gender. She began designing interactive attractions and exhibitions in 1983, and has held academic appointments since 1998. Her game designs include the award-winning virtual reality attraction Virtual Adventures (for Iwerks and Evans & Sutherland) and the Purple Moon Friendship Adventure Cards for Girls. She received her Ph.D. in 2006 from SMARTLab Centre, then at Central Saint Martins College of Art and Design, University of the Arts London. She currently is Assistant Professor of Digital Media in the School of Literature, Communication and Culture at Georgia Tech, where she also directs the Experimental Game Lab and the Emergent Game Group. She is the author or co-author of numerous papers and book chapters, as well as The Interactive Book (Macmillan 1997) and the forthcoming Communities of Play: Emergent Cultures in Multiplayer Games and Virtual Worlds (MIT 2009). She has also curated new media, virtual reality, and game exhibitions and is currently Festival Chair for IndieCade, an international independent games festival and showcase series. She is a co-founder of the Ludica women’s game collective.
On 03.10.09 Beyers Sellers said:
It’s hard not to appreciate the timing of this article in The New Republic, by Leon Wieseltier:
“In Tough Times, the Humanities Must Justify Their Worth.” So The New York Times announced this week, in a report that made a grim country feel grimmer. “Previous economic downturns have often led to decreased enrollment in the disciplines loosely grouped under the term ‘humanities’–which generally include languages, literature, the arts, history, cultural studies, philosophy, and religion. Many in the field worry that in this current crisis those areas will be hit hardest.” The complaint against the humanities is that they are impractical. This is true. They will not change the world. They will change only the experience, and the understanding, and the evaluation, of the world. Since interpretation is the distinctively human activity, instruction in the traditions of interpretation should hardly be controversial–except in a society that mistakes practice for a philosophy. It is worth remembering, then, that the crisis in which we find ourselves was the work of practical men. The securitization of mortgages was not conceived by a head in the clouds. No poet cost anybody their house. No historian cost anybody their job. Not even the most pampered of professors ever squandered $87,000 of someone else’s money on a little rug. The creativity of bankers is a luxury that we can no longer afford. But now I read about “defending the virtues of the liberal arts in a money-driven world,” as the Times says. I would have thought that in these times the perspective of money would be ashamed to show itself. “
On 03.11.09 Hannibal Prinz said:
Year, second life will be the furture, or one part of the furture of our life. But the main problem is, that the companies, which get in, want to invest only some dollars. If they buy a TV-spot, there is a lot of money. If these guys goes in second life,think, all is cheap. But u must invest real time, to go forward! The companies in Sl will be the winner in the next years! I believe!
Kudos to NCSU for seizing a great opportunity. As organizations in the public and private sector look to cut costs and still provide a quality training environment, the virtual classroom offers both.
While the thought of “going virtual” may seem uncomfortable to older generations of workers who are used to receiving their training face-to-face, younger employees entering the work force are very comfortable with the virtual learning technology.
Here at The Brooks Group, we’re a professional sales and sales management training company, and we’re in the process of launching our own virtual training facility, using Second Life. Many of our long-term clients are expressing interest in this option because the virtual classroom completely wipes out travel costs and travel times. The savings in time and dollars are enormous to any company that wants to provide quality training to its team.
Kevin Reinert
Chief Operating Officer
The Brooks Group
[...] piece “Portrait of an Artist as an Avatar” in the New York Times that we wrote about a few days ago – the emerging Second Life arts happenings are nearly invisible to the mainstream [...]
On 03.12.09 naveen rai said:
hi this is naveen i work with 3ds max very fluently but i dnt know how can i export into sl am not talking abt sculpt primes or object am talking abt building chairs furnitures etc and wer every i searc all are incomplet can you sugges me little .
On 03.12.09 naveen rai said:
and please dont give me any link abt that i allready been all links its all are useless and iam not understand wer i have to go
Naveen – Currently, you can not import mesh objects into Second Life. Second Life objects are based on prims – prims do not convert to mesh and mesh does not convert to prims. SL does not therefore provide a link to common 3D development pipelines such as Collada or to common file formats such as OBJ.
Sorry I can’t help – although you might want to look at platforms like RealXtend which do support import of OBJ files, Google Sketch-Up, 3DS, etc.
I was really happy that a major critic like John Terauds was able to come out to a virtual concert. I had been talking it up to him for a fair amount of time! He seemed to really enjoy himself, and like me, find the relaxed atmosphere and genuine engagment with the music very refreshing.
[...] Taking aim at Congressmen, corporations, and a hypothetical flood of future users, Linden Lab announced today that it was planning to force a large chunk of its customer base in Second Life to relocate, creating an ‘adult-oriented’ continent and tagging its databases so that users can be better assured that they can toggle all that smutty adult-type stuff on and off based on how puritanical they feel. The move opens the door to the merger of the Teen Grid with Second Life, a move hinted at by Philip Rosedale on a recent episode of Metanomics, and to the kind of mass cultural and economic change that maybe only the anthropologists and accountants would love. [...]
On 03.12.09 Troy McConaghy said:
The kids virtual worlds have lessons all right, like “how to be a good consumer and never be satisfied with what you’ve got,” and “you must have Product X or you will be a social retard.”
[...] prior to Philip stepping down (or is it up?) from his role as CEO I wrote: “So here’s the vision: use code to enable a society built on the idea of collaborative [...]
This is nothing but bad news. Attempts to child-proof the real world invariably fail, and if SL is altered to mirror RL, then those efforts will fail inworld as well.
If Linden wants to ensure a mass exodus to its first viable competitor (and even to hasten its arrival on the scene), this is a surefire way to do it.
Lets off a huge yeehaw on the first hour experience. Sounds like the new “continent” will house 90% of the official “gateway” portals!
What is the first question the hordes of mass-media following newbies ask? No comment, but in virtual London they get sent to Soho – not some nether-region removed from the greater social complex that may ultimately widen their interest in exploring virtual presence in all its myriad uses.
Exactly what the “sensibilities” of residents are that preclude the presence of something that merely replicates the complexities of real life human society are beyond me. or maybe LL still think they are running a “game” platform – Sin Sims instead of Sin City.
Personally I can live without the “one-track-mind” sin-seekers intruding in places they are less than welcome, but segregation seems far worse. What next – virtual apartheid.
You all still dont get it…
RISK, GAMING, NOT BUSINESS drives LL and their ilk.
BTW, Bernie Madoff just made that same “Risk-gaming” argument as he was arraigned today in court.
never trust a burning man to have any interest but his own.
Btw, the “more real” language was from an earlier blog post that I shared with Dusan. We removed it because people misunderstood it. As Cyn comments in the forums “Basically, we are trying for the majority of Second Life to just be… life. Any form, format, or point of view you like, in what we now call the mature area – sort of like the town square. The very sexually explicit and extremely violent, we want to have in a location you choose to go to, just as you would in the “real world”.
On 03.12.09 lr said:
Cell phone 3d microcommerce? ill have a jetpack sooner.
Someone ENGAGED! but used the “reverse pedal”.
Same “revelations” that web3d conference goers had in 2001.
RESULTS.
On 03.12.09 Hooray said:
I say it’s about time. Even people who like to have sex in SL get tired of being propositioned all the time or having erections show up at meetings.
On 03.12.09 Melponeme_k said:
I always thought that if any company could make a successful go in SL and understand how to do it, it would be Disney. But I knew SL with it’s wild “Boogie Nights” culture, they would never come here.
SL is a business and it needs business venture money to fuel it’s growth. Unfortunately that means this kind of change was inevitable. From what I’ve read, they don’t plan to haul us old timers to the T&A island. But serious kink stuff will be moved.
At heart, I don’t think it would change our day to day SL life. But what it would change is the comfortable mindset. We would still go about our business but now everyone will be paranoid and jumping at shadows.
Personlly, I’m not worried but I’m not excited about the changes either.
They threw the “Adult” designation into the source code months ago back in Fall ‘08, before there was even a hint of an announced merger of the TG/MG or a sweeping policy on adult content. I feel very bad for anyone who thinks that their opinion matter much, because these forum threads should be considered–at best–feelers into how the community might react once the decisions that have already been made will be implemented. For example, you would have to be *insane* to think that LL’s broken account-verification system would be adequate, yet that’s what they’re claiming. If you read the first Linden posts, you’ll even notice phrases like “We’ve carefully researched the anticipated impact.” If they already have “adequate research,” why are they even bothering to ask what residents think? Because they know it’ll be an even bigger PR nightmare than openspaces if they upheave the Adult community and don’t at least *pretend* to give the people they’re upheaving a voice.
All of this, of course, is well within they’re right. They own the grid, they can shove around people as much as they want. I just wish they would stop being so disingenuous about it one of these days; it’s just pathetic in this case.
I agree, btw, that they’re most likely “sanitizing” the mainland for corporate interests. That’s always been the teet they’ve tried to suckle, even though their support for enterprise needs is ludicrously lacking. My predictions for the ramifications: the new Adult ghetto will fail horribly; the glut of adult products will face harsher competition with their customer base shrinking (as many people work/buy in clearly adult areas without having payment info on file), and many of them will go under. Meanwhile, the mentors–the largest glut of the populace who even knows what an Abuse Report is, let alone how to use it–will be given next to no guidance by LL, and once it *is* somewhat given eventually it’ll probably be too late to prevent the massive amount of headaches that always ensue when residents want to use the world in one way, and LL wants them to use it in another. As adult businesses begin to close, expect another crop of dissatisfied customers to head to OpenSim and await full interop. Despite what the lindens at least on the forum threads are thinking, the economy will take a large hit, but eventually recover as new PG-friendly cash starts flowing in and stories of “M Linden Cleans Up Second Life!” comparing him to Guilliani attract signups.
I’m still have a hard time determining if all of this is a good or a bad thing, btw. So far, I’m just taking it for what I’m at least absolutely sure it is: another nail in the pioneer spirit coffin. It’s going to make me sad to watch another group of residents learn that despite their bold words, LL really doesn’t give a crap about their plot/store/club/community/home after all.
Here’s what i think it boils down to, why LL chose to do it, chose to reveal the new plan in this way…
“In fact, the Lab has a long history of having what seem like good reasons for doing things, in their own minds at least, and then being slightly baffled when stuff doesn’t quite turn out as planned.”
… that’s pretty much it… to me it seems like they know what they want to achieve, but they don’t know how to go about getting it done, nor do they really seem to care if their ideas are half-baked, or condusive for the community.
They just do what they do cause they do what they do.
( an example of the LL monday morning meeting:
M Linden: and, dont forget, we have Brenda’s birthday in the break room later… oh and Cyn, I think we should get that age thing rolling again. Cyn, just come up with a plan this week so we can post it by thursday. Now, who wants cake?)
On 03.12.09 Astrofiammante said:
I’m out. It’s heartbreaking, but this is the end of everything that’s good about SL.
The first commenter has it bang on the nail – bring on the first viable competitor.
If we’re *really* lucky that’s an open-source hosting package that allows each of us to run our own sim(s) on an individual server with the capability to interlock – just as we would with websites.
That’s the future and maybe this’ll drive us there that much quicker…
On 03.12.09 Dirk Talamasca said:
The “Cleaning Up Of Second Life” should in no way be accredited to M Linden, for the plans for governance of this kind were in place well before M Linden arrived at Linden Lab. That is an indisputable fact.
Nothing in this policy will inhibit residents from participating in activities they want to participate in as long as they verify and consent to participate. This is no different than showing identification before buying beer, entering a bar or buying an adult magazine. That is a practice which we find acceptable in the physical world and by which society has managed to chug along.
Throwing out corporate interests as a trump card for the reasoning behind the move is not wholly acceptable. Believe it or not, there are many adult residents that would prefer not to be confronted with adult material and it keeps some casual residents away just as much as it might keep businesses away.
In the physical world, we seem to think that having an adult club across the street from a church isn’t acceptable and so we disallow that with very little turmoil. It just makes sense that we work together to avoid upsetting people who may have different beliefs and preferences so that we can enjoy the freedom to pursue our own in peace and harmony.
There will be some interesting questions regarding creators of skins and if those skins might be made available for purchase to non-verified residents. I think the answer is probably going to be yes, skin sales may continue as long as the ads do not show full frontal nudity. Aquiring and wearing a demo of the skin will probably be tolerated as well. I think common sense just has to prevail here. No one is shopping for a skin to commit a vulgar or indecent act and they should not be accused of such. There will be other questions similar in scope but I think the fact that the film industry manages to designate and rate content to a degree that is found acceptable gives us a reasonable expectation that we can do that in Second Life as well.
They take millions of dollars based on land-server flipping, porn and gambling. They then eliminate each “market” that made them short term profits, and then they’ll flip the tech carcas over to another company within 2 years.
So much for “changing anything”. From the first “OWN VIRTUAL LAND” banner to the last “BUY A UNLINCENSED FERRARI at SLX” banner, LL has been built on theft of others property and others ignorance of the true meaning of the TAO of Linden.
They only react to the legal issues after they have robbed the bank. Web2.0 ethics, 101.
chris
On 03.12.09 Melponeme_k said:
“I think the answer is probably going to be yes, skin sales may continue as long as the ads do not show full frontal nudity.”
You see this is what worries me, the mindset behind this element of SL. This indicates to me that there may be draconian measures taken with our culture even outside the pornography establishments.
I consider myself on the conservative side, but never once did I consider the nude models in Skin stores lewd. It never entered my mind to look upon them that way. None of the stores I ever visited depicted the models posing in skin as pornographic. They were always well done nude studies.
I refuse to see how this is lewd behavior or that it should be banned. The human body is not shameful. If I had a child, the skin stores wouldn’t bother me. Second Life has a reputation for being an adult playground in general. Which would mean I would allow no child of mine near it, no matter how watered down.
I can’t help but suspect that LL is hoping that most of the free wheeling residents will just run off to openlifegrid or worlds like it. They think they can carry on without most of us. Maybe they are right.
On 03.12.09 Alberik Rotaru said:
The worry in all this is that LL’s record suggests they could not write a clear rule to save their lives. What, for instance, is ‘intense language’? Shakespeare? Whitman?
What, for that matter, is PG, a category poorly understood in the US and unknown elsewhere. Are we going to get more nude statues with modesty boxes concealing their unmentionables?
Perhaps a prim figleaf could be included in everyone’s library. It could be used to cover the absurdities, gaps and contradictions in LL regulations.
On 03.12.09 Luke Poplin said:
While we’re analyzing language such as, “…in some very elemental ways, to more closely mirror the real world.”
I’m wondering if the use of a term closely tied to a particular religion in this statement:
“…they can toggle all that smutty adult-type stuff on and off based on how puritanical they feel.”
is meant to move this discussion in a particular direction?
On 03.12.09 Jonathan Teller said:
Storm in a teacup. This will better allow for shared interests to erm *flourish*. The grid is too diverse, spread out, and you can hardly find a thing.
One new continent it will be (in my mind at least) like the red light district of SL.
I’ll eat my hat if the land in that space isn’t a premium + is a commercial success for Linden Lab. We also screamed we wanted mainland cleared up *not on my doorstep/parcel please* and now this comes along we scream *wait that sex club was actually ok next door*.
Strategically this makes perfect sense in terms on content / community.
On 03.12.09 Jonathan Teller said:
Plus for the micro worriers e.g. can I show nipples on my skin advert in store. Common sense always prevails. If your model is grabbing her nipples and in a lewd post – I suggest you have a problem. If she is simply standing there and a non sexual pose – I suggest you likely do not at this stage.
People will test the boundaries and Linden’s normal process is to put a [badly] worded scope definition out, realize on the feedback, refine it, and repeat as necessary. What I have found good about this post is their obvious sensitivity around the implementation and the fact they are making it clear they are seeking feedback. They have been listening, that is clear.
I need to retract the ‘mirror the world’ comment. Thanks Catherine for pointing out that the final release used different language. The fact that it was in the original release still gives me pause, but I’ll take it that it was an unintended phrasing rather than a shift in philosophy.
We held a fascinating discussion yesterday at Metanomics – transcript is here. I think the gist of it was that this has the POTENTIAL to be a “culture changer” but it felt like the general trend was towards this being a “devil in the details” decision.
If the first hour experience can induce less anxiety and offense in people, while still giving the option to beam off to X-Rated land, who’s going to complain (or at least, that’s how the discussion felt, but maybe I was intruding my own biases).
The question is how to get to there from here, how the ‘transfer’ and ‘flagging’ will happen, and how it will all be enforced.
In fairness to the Lab, I think they’ve opened the door to a fairly robust discussion of what we mean when we say ‘explicit’. Clearly, as the interviews and comments on the Lab’s forum make clear, the “intent” here is to move explicit material to the new continent, and to fairly loosely flag the rest of it while always retaining the “back-up” of being able to crack down a little on egregious offenders.
Whether they can pull this off remains to be seen – but as this has played itself out over night, I’m starting to sense that the “move”, if handled with a fairly light um hand, might have some upsides. (and, again, this is my own bias, but I think the upsides for new users are fairly significant, whether they’re coming looking for the X-Rated stuff or they’re coming and hoping to avoid it).
@Luke – my puritanical comment was meant fairly specifically to flag my own bias. I’m Canadian after all – we can be very hmm ‘english’ but we’re also fairly generous in our allowances of the desires and behaviours of others. I’m hoping the Lab acts more Canadian than puritanical.
Many have tried and many have failed. Nut at last, LL will succeed where others have failed. A Megamall for every Highway and Byway of the Human Sexual Condition. Bravo!
…expect another crop of dissatisfied customers to head to OpenSim and await full interop…
Its interesting to note that each time Linden Labs pushes its fingers into the Second Life grid, the other grids gain momentum. End song to this all will be a myriad of inter-opped grids with each a specific kind of populace, and Second Life’s grid being the neutral town square.
This is not about sex and morality. This is about money and web 2.0 ethics and will most likely be executed as just another way to increase LL’s server rental profits this next quarter. There will be no financial consideration for their customers time and money already spent. A few will , as in the past be privy to insider info and flip new parcels and sims given LL “partner of the moment” blessing, but most will lose more time and money and in the end, LL will simply delete all efforts not in their own best financial interests of any given moment.
This is of course, what we all signed up for after clicking “I agree with the TOS” and placed “our content” and “our work product” into a system which dosent place much interest in it or it’s value financially to others.
I can’t help but think there is a lot of excessive hand-wringing, lack of tolerance for a little change, and lack of imagination of how this can be good.
Johna makes the point that other grids will also prosper… but it may not be so much that they are fleeing, it may simply be that virtual worlds are maturing, growing, and diversifying. It is good that others are trying other options. These don’t have to be harbingers of doom or threat, they are simply the natural way that new things can be innovated and tested.
As to the fear that once RL kids are added, it will threaten the freedom of mature areas, remember this is a world where rules can be defined and enforced with a lot of granularity, objects, areas, and avatars can have a lot of different limitations placed so that kids can’t go into adult areas, adult themed objects can only belong to appropriate accounts, and unlike the real world, and adult can have a “restraining order” that prevents them from going near the kid’s playground, if need be.
Change does not have always be bad, but change does cause disruption. Like the Linden said, they are first opening this up to debate, so think through your concerns or suggestions and get them in the mix.
I remember a hippie once told me that “FEAR” was “Forever Evading Another Reality”. Don’t give into fear and intolerance of change when you can embrace it and help shape it.
Once the “shock and awe” of announcing the proposed cleaning up of Dodge City has subsided, perhaps the knee-jerk condemnation can give way to some rational discussion about what is clearly an issue.
The veritable “blogsplosion” of comments on this issue indicate that without a doubt, raw nerves have been touched but much calmer one will be needed to make some decisions. Given that Second Life as a PRODUCT serves the needs of different customers in different ways, there’s no doubt that some folks are going to be dissatisfied with any changes.
As to my contribution, I would argue that the discussion should NOT be on how to define “adult content” and what is and isn’t allowed but on how to control ACCESS to particular locations.
And it is, of course, predominantly about sex – a brief skip through the blogosphere will support that – and by default, that means the current “Adult areas.” The underlying concern seems to be two-fold: kids who can wander into a “three-men-and-a-goat scenario” and end up emotional scarred for life, or of adults who wander into a “three-goats-and-a-man scenario” and find it offensive (even if the goats are consenting goats).
Rather than try to prescribe whether goatly action should be allowed, the challenge is to prevent access to the entertainment. Banning goat sex will serve no purpose because (a) there’s no way to police it and (b) there’s no way to police it. Yes, I repeated the phrase but I thought it was important enough to deserve a second hearing.
Oh, and related to this is the other elephant in the room (or goat, if you want to continue the metaphor) – how do you “punish” criminals in Second Life? Irrespective of whatever system ends up being implemented by LL, or whatever definitions of “adult content” get foisted out, the REAL problem is how to enforce them. Simply clicking on “Abuse Report” when you see some hot goat-man action only flags an event; it doesn’t ban the goatish avatars, who can simply sign up again as Goatboy2, Goatboy3, and so on until he runs out of numbers.
So, my take on this is that all this strum und drang about kinky sex masks the underlying – an unaddressed – issues of (a) how do you police SL activities, (b) how do punish infractions of the TOS/Law, and (c) how do you prevent repeat offenders (alts).
…and now we are back to our old friend, compulsory registration using a credit card – or at least that general issue of linking RL and SL identity. And that’s an issue that I suspect will make this current spat seem like the good old days.
So, for what it’s worth, my take on it, having worked in online community for the last 12 years or so, and having come to academic cultural anthropology from the pragmatic perspective of doing my job better…this cat’s left the station long ago.
Briefly, cultural manipulation occurs in every online world, and, indeed, is part of what the consumer is buying. Is there sufficient impetus for building casual ties? Is there reason enough to bond into larger groups? If not, we need to tweak it, or the churn rate goes up, and our world fails: people stay (to a large extent) because of other people, and tweaking the social dynamics is just one of the tools a game designer, or community manager, uses as part of their work. I’d certainly agree that most don’t see it that way (yet)… but by definition the community manager’s job is to “manage” a more or less small virtual culture, castigating miscreants and celebrating “approved” community leaders.
I differ from Dr. Castronova in some respects, and I need to read his book, but my take is that we’re already having a tremendous impact on people’s unconscious awareness of the plasticity of culture. If I can find a plethora of differing yet consistently meaningful (to me, in whatever terms, and there’s a whole other discussion there) social identities with a few mouse-clicks – and Second Life in itself is a darned credible example of this – clearly my cultural identity soon becomes… “which culture?” Ie., the myth of the monolithic culture is doomed (unless you’re talking in the sense of a post-techno convergence culture, ala Henry Jenkins, which I think is much more reasonable, but also much more aware of itself as an artifact), and the technology is returning to us the sense of a participatory culture (as in the sense of “participant observer”, and yes, irony intended).
We’re always involved in shaping our culture, to some extent or other – supporting the trends or cultural leaders that suit us, or becoming them – synthetic worlds give us the chance to seek out specific cultural aspects as part of the consumer choice, again returning the control of culture to the individual…
Most every design choice in a virtual world or MMO (and to a lesser extent, I’d argue the same applies to any online community) impacts the culture of the community that will (presumably) come to be participants in that world. Culture may be in some sense sacrosanct when we’re talking the evils of imperialism, but online it’s already basically a consumer commodity. Which I find really exciting… and yes, should fuel all sorts of fun learnings about how culture operates…
On 03.14.09 Are Lindens serious? said:
Btw, the “more real” language was from an earlier blog post that I shared with Dusan. We removed it because people misunderstood it. As Cyn comments in the forums “Basically, we are trying for the majority of Second Life to just be… life. Any form, format, or point of view you like, in what we now call the mature area – sort of like the town square. The very sexually explicit and extremely violent, we want to have in a location you choose to go to, just as you would in the “real world”.”
The real world does not have these huge distinctions for adult content. In my city centre I will find toy stores near stores that sell sex toys. The dirty bookstore usually stands out like a sore thumb because it’s the store that has the windows blocked, but they’re not shunted to a completely different zone.
If you go to Amsterdam you don’t need to be an adult to walk through the red light district, there’s no barrier with an id check. A responsible parent of course is unlikely to bring their kid traipsing through there of course.
There are positives to an adult continent, the same as there are positives to a non adult continent and this is where I think Linden Lab should lead this. Encourage, but don’t force, people to setup shop in a more suitable location for their offerings or needs.
[...] what does NOT surprise me is.. well. Read the first comment posted to Dusan’s considered blog post about the whole [...]
On 03.14.09 AnonyMouse said:
hello
On 03.14.09 Prokofy Neva said:
You know what I find TERRIBLY annoying about this discussion? The notion that Linden Lab, those hippies, those technocommies, those Extropians, being somehow driven to “prudishness” because of their status as Americans, and presumbably Puritan motives.
The fact is, the non-Americans are the biggest drivers of this. It was the European prosecution of child pornography simulation in SL that drove the policy against “ageplay” for example, which would have been tolerated under the First Amendment.
Can you please name one virtual world out there that has this number of people and has adult content? Red Light District died. So, could you cite any? In Canada or the UK? Where we are hearing the biggest screaming and finger-pointing about these prudish Americans?
Seriously, I’d love the Europeans to try making an MMOG or VW that has gambling and adult content and doesn’t charge VAT lol. These three things that they thing evil imperialist industrial religious complex Americans are trying to wipe off the Internet. Then we’d see if in fact the populations of those countries really supported such online activity or not.
On 03.14.09 cube inada said:
The Red Light Center seems online and doing fine.
American Corporate Financed Pornography is safe too. Way to much money involved by large cable tv, hotel, and media corporations who sell “sugar pop ” by day, and “pay per view” by night:)
A couple quick clarifications in regard to cdz’s statement above:
“celia a ‘well respected anthropologist?’ who says? You all are so FULL of it:0) At least her punditry on Interactive Design has over 20 years experience in the field to back up her views.”
Two issues here. At the Metanomics discussion that’s being debated here, Bloomfield incorrectly referred to Celia as a “cultural anthropologist.” She is not and has never identified as such – that was Rob’s error. She does, however, conduct ethnographic research.
Second issue: your phrase “You all are so FULL of it” makes it sound to me like you are also implying she is not a well-respected ethnographer. So if that’s what you intended by saying “who says,” then I SAY she’s a well-respected ethnographer. Since I’ve read her book manuscript and many other writings, I should know. And since I have a PhD in anthropology from Stanford and am an Associate Professor of anthropology at UC Irvine and am Editor-in-Chief of American Anthropologist, the flagship journal of the American Anthropological Association, I sorta get to say what counts as good ethnography. Her work counts as good ethnography. So there.
At the risk of sounding repetitive: those of us interested in building a strong and diverse research community should stand up to all forms of dismissal or methodological partisanship. I know from my work as an editor that not all research is of the same quality, but I also know that there’s a lot of diverse work out there that deserves respect and deserves a hearing. No research will be everyone’s cup of tea, but we can learn from a wide range of research methods.
A quick tag on Ron Meiners’s comment-it’s absolutely true that cultures are always in a state of change and that change is shaped by “internal” and “external” forces, and questions of ethical research, design, and governance of virtual worlds should take this into account. A good and important point.
I am not so sure on the UK side in that scope of European Prok.
Registrations of UK users rose substantially after press on the sex scandals etc.
I do not believe this is driven by *cleaning up content*. This is driven by commercial land etc. Think of those premiums for the Linden built mainland areas. I suspect they have already been working on this and it will be found to be commercially lucrative for the Lab.
Their own red light district so to speak will sell for a premium no doubt.
On 03.15.09 cube inada said:
absolutley jonathan,
I expect 1500.00 setup fees and 395.00 monthly tiers – to be 6 months later extended to all “estates” to run CLASS S(for sex) Servers.
This is just another attempt to get while the getting still seems good.
The only plan is to keep all customers unsure of anything, keep them “blogging” at themsleves to feel “good and important” and to keep doing what will ever keep cash flowing into the bank account.
Its really not any “new paradigm”..;)
Those who can still profit from the system will stay, those who can no longer afford to, will leave, still believing in “TAOs” or not:)
“the crime of apartheid”
When I first arrived in SL I was shocked and dismayed by the discovery of BDSM, the obvious Sexual nature of a lot of the content and most defiantly by the concept of slavery, I am African, to me it was a nightmare. But I explored, I met people, I listened. I found a diversity of cultures, of beliefs of sexual tolerance. A world where we were separated only by Time, not by Borders, Colour, Creed or Sexual Preference. I stayed and I loved it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeska Linden
To be clear, the blog states there are three main features involved in this change:
* Provide a way to geographically separate Adult content to a new part of the “mainland” designed
* Filter search results, so that those who do not wish to see “Adult” results will not
* Require that those who access or see “Adult” content (whether on land or in search) have had their accounts verified – such as by a payment or age verification method.
In the real world I grew up in a country with forced removals where different groups were allocated separate land, pass laws to verify your status, of censorship in media and in speech. In short the 3 points Jeska highlights above. We had a name for it:
‘Apartheid — meaning separateness in Dutch (which is cognate to the English apart and -hood) — was a system of legal segregation enforced by the government in South Africa between 1948 and 1994. The vestiges of apartheid still shape South African politics and society.’
I now have to live with the aftermath of Apartheid and it is not nice, our society is so fragmented, groups are still suspicious of each other, cultures keep to themselves. Everything is the opposite of what drew me so deeply into SL.
If LL are hell bent on enforcing “the crime of apartheid” onto the virtual world of SL, then they are bound to repeat history and as a social experiment Second Life has failed.
These proposals will not affect me in any way, they may effect some of my friends, but they will effect a lot of people initially and all of us in the end.
I lived with and fought against Apartheid all my life, do I now have to repeat that in my Virtual world?
Dusan’s analysis of the immediate effects to the community is very sound. Avatrian does not really dabble in any adult or mature oriented content. So we are unaffected by all this. However, the thought of a seperate T&A continent, virtual apartheid and sim relocations…it does not illicit good feelings. Disruptions are never welcomed and wide sweeping cultural changes imposed from the top are always alienating. I think when LL does their cost/benefit analysis before doing these things, it is easier for them to see (and therefore value) the corporate few in relation to the residential many.
Dusan/Craig, thanks for the sum up. This year, my company did not participate as well. The fragmentation and frequency of these industry conventions render them ineffective for the purposes of marketing, learning or networking. We need to have a true tradeshow for participants to have substance to take away with them. And also, be able to find answers they are looking for. From experience, I come away more confused after attending a Virtual World Expo. Ironically enough, I didn’t get the sense of being “engaged” at all. There is never a discerning sign to where the industry as a whole is going.
On 03.18.09 Faerie said:
This will really create a two-class system in SL : The “Verified” and the unwashed “Unverified” who are banned from all lands flagged “mature”. What an impact this will have for people with multiple alts!
I can see how people who are Unverified will be viewed with suspicion by the Verfied.
[...] On which point I have some issues, but we’ll leave that to the accountants and anthropologists to sort out. [...]
On 03.18.09 A Draken said:
The shift you speak of in your first paragraph reflect that people operating in the virtual world do so much the same way they operate in the physical world. As for the quote from Mark Fellows, my personal reaction is “Duh!”. Sherry Turkle’s work starting with “The Second Self” in 1984 and “Life on the Screen” in 1995 show that even text-based worlds could “inform social science and and its applications in the real world”
On 03.18.09 Eris said:
Sidebar: Linden are not surveilling you (without good reason) because they’re not allowed to legally and I don’t just mean because of any perceived right to privacy. LL have claimed Service Provider status for themselves which grants a ’safe harbour’ clause that they cannot be prosecuted for any illegal or stolen content carried on their networks on the grounds that they cannot practically know what’s being carried on their networks.
I’ve been told (by lawyers that know much more than me!) that this absolutely pivots on them having ‘no prior knowledge’ of any users activity or user-content. If they ever did have it would nullify their safe harbour and they’re wide open to all sorts of litigation. Guessing they’d like to avoid that?
The problem with global, ubiquitous censorship (and thats what LL is trying to implement, effectively) are manyfold. Two of the most important ones (besides many technical problems) are:
#1: Laws and law enforcement without a supporting jurisdictional system (a court of appeals for example) are basically what defines a dictatorship.
#2: There is no global standard (and probably can’t be), what is “decency”. The internetz (and SL) is global, though. LL is basically trying to enforce local standards (”frontal nudity” ROTFL) to its global target group.
Cultural standards vary wildly over the globe. In some countries exposing a woman’s nipple is considered indecent (or worse). In other cultures showing her face outside the home is indecent. In Germany the public display of a swastika is illegal – as is consummation of child porn (not only production). Personally I find pictures of people carrying giant guns much more obscene the pictures of a couple making love. Culture (and law) is local, sometimes even personal. The internetz isn’t.
There are may people, who have no problems with #2. Prok’s comment is a good example. The reasoning behind it is basically: LL is an American company and an American company has a right to enforce American standards (this is NOT an purely American attitude btw. it tends to be more prevalent in more powerful nations, though
The problem with this attitude is that (1) it doesn’t hold water legally. Residents coming from other nations have to follow their local laws (even in SL). That’s why this move only helps Linden Lab in the US on the purely legal side, which now is less than half it’s market. (2) it at least misleading advertisement if not something stronger to present yourself as a basically neutral, global platform but behave like you are a district of one of the worlds nations.
Let’s be honest and reasonable:
If you look at the phrasing of Linden Lab’s original post it becomes fairly clear, that the main impetus for this program is to provide the corporations and other organizations which are the focus of their current sales, PR and marketing activities with a “clean” environment. Corporations in general ARE more puritan than than the citizens themselves in most cultures of the world.
So it seems to make sense to them to “clean up SL”. This is a valid business reason. That’s all.
All the other nice words around the announcement is just … PR
[...] Insights from Engage Expo: Virtual World Goods, Kids, and Montetizing Mom from Dusan Writer’s Metaverse. [...]
On 03.20.09 Tikaf Viper said:
No doubt you will “pardon my French”, inasmuch as, being French, you will no doubt pardon my English.
Here’s what I “jump” (?) at:
“us(es) the virtual world to identify things that are going on in the real world rather than using the virtual world simply to look at the virtual world.”
Indeed. I have met people in Second Life telling me they had foreseen a slump in the financial system because of a similar earlier slump in their virtual activities. For all I know, a wide range of economics researchers have recently said that as well, that is true.
So why do I get this strange feeling as I’m thinking of Claude Lévi-Strauss?
I do believe there are set patterns you can recognize in both virtual and real worlds. Therefore, no doubt, you might analyze the real world as things happen in the virtual one.
Nonetheless, it seems to me this is missing the point. That is why I shall use the word “candid” to describe the findings of such eminent people, notwithstanding the respect I might bear to such people.
There are links, indeed, between the two worlds. How could it not be so? Yet, as far as I know, I see the virtual platforms as an “extension” from real life. Not a danger per se, but a new stage in society’s evolution, such as, let’s say … impressionistic painting for the 20th century.
Must we analyze the beginnings of 20th century real life through the vision of impressionist painters?
We shall.
Must we also analyze the events leading to “impressionisme”.
Of course.
The real question, I think, is thus not to watch the virtual world as a tool to analyze “things that are going on” in the real world, but as a “real” phenomenon, which may show things that will possibly happen, or even how society, culture and so on will develop.
On 03.20.09 Tikaf Viper said:
Nice interview indeed …
yet I still am very far from understanding “techne” I think, and I also get the feeling Mr Boellstorff is still struggling with the concept, which, after all, seems sound enough.
I just want to link this to Joan Kramer’s post. In thought, she says there is no distinction, and uses the term “extension”, which I used in another post not being sure of its meaning in English (warms the cockles of my French heart!); in writing, she says “SL life”, as work life or other categories we might apply to different parts of our life.
I do agree, because it is my own personal theory “in the making”, but the way she puts it unsettles my very idea now …
If anyone has suggestions, or Joan herself, please enlighten me!
On 03.22.09 cube inada said:
extention? without knowing the specific context youre refering to i would assume its “extention” as in basic mcluen “media/ tools as extentions of man/humans”.
beyond all the metahype all virtual worlds are another media/tool for humans to inhabit and exist with. They will soon allow for environments as potentially satisfying for the human condition as nature/god has offered us.
We bring the luggage:)
They are as exponetially powerfull in my opion to be used to control and manage “others” as to the earlier voice/image broadcast media was to the atom’s splitting was to the powder’s burning.
Post atomic? sounds like a blog buzz meme, makes little sense beyond what ive just said.photons shmotons…
The natural world is atomic in nature, we and “so far” all our extentions are as well. Trapped.:)with only faith for some’s key to doors that may not exist.
No matter how meta the extropian server that may hold Ray Kurswells brain,lol one good solar flare will most likely send him to pallookaville.
Both realife and virtual worlds can easily be placed into our shared reality beyond faith. Both states are open to the affects of the extentions of mans free will. Neither can negate reality though, other than in discussions of faith.
technology is not science, that has been the most overlooked issue in almost all things networked as meta for way to long.
Yeah,
for 20 years before SL bloggers made “hype” about grass water and islands being the only way to be a virtual world, many did work that was called “3d interface/immersive design” and translated information into many many metaphors and shapes.
“reflexive architecture” is the hammer seeing the nail:), and will assist some architects to go beyond 2d cad presentations as tools, and some to see “immersive media” as a medium that many will spend more time “mediated in” than in real lifes mediations.
Camera angles are just the medias “human scale” step heights. ignore them and your viewsers cant navigate, just as make stairs to tall and no one can reach the bathrooms on the second floor:)
This is an old post, by now the metaverse myth of sl has been found out, but the usage of SL by prok to sell bungalows and white picket fences to those who “require” it, and for keystone to sell wikitechture and “animated-living architecture” to those who need that, has been a needed step to alert a wider audience, part proks, part keystones, to the reality of virtuality that is coming soon. With or without SL as a meme or blogging as the faulty dominant way people communicate by choice.–heck its twitter now anyway as i add my 2 cents in 2009..right?
Superb..A fully platform independent, web based client would be the knee-up opensimulator needs. Instantly one could integrate their standalone 3D space with the 2D, reducing any need for a client install. Superb…Looking forward to some sensible firefox hippoViewer plugins We still need a way to allow a ‘Guest’ style login to opensim. Or a way to have a hypergrid user that requires no ’start world’. Its nice to browse a thing without signing up. Thanks for this news Dusan
Tateru, some of the newer javascript engines are sufficiently fast to enable 3D technologies in the browser. Chrome, Safari, and Mozilla browser makers are all working on javascript tracing and JIT’ing engines whose performance characteristics may very well surprise you, and for a concrete example of how fast javascript can be for 3D viewers today, you might want to take a look at Unity3D.
I am actually quite excited by this news!
On 03.25.09 Laurent said:
Networking limitations in the browser requires attention too: there is no way to set up a listener, and port range is restricted.
I’m sure this will eventually evolve too.
Cool. great for thin client approach. But it also makes me wonder if this is the path we want to be traveling.
There is a reason we do not use Lynx as a browser anymore; we all wanted to see pictures, so we went level up and started using web browsers that supported images and other fancy -2D- content. We even added the concept of ‘ embed’, so we can have animated and interactive content like Flash.
Now we come to the next wave of content, and its 3D-shaped. Is it not just time to realise that we require a different type of browser for 3D content?
Vivaty, small worlds and various ‘ browser based’ 3D worlds are at current just plug-ins (propriatary or flash based) that run in a sandbox in the browser.
So far what this proposal aims to do is leverage Open GL into the browser to be addressed by javascript, and only the Mozilla browser as I read it. If we are ging to create 3D on the web, I would be happier to see an open system that is crossbrowser and doesnt get its fingers into my operating system by staying inside the sandbox we call webbrowser.
Mozilla has certainly not proposed anything specific to virtual worlds, only browser support for hardware accelerated 3D graphics in general. Someone else might try to use the technology to make a 3D virtual worlds client in the browser, but Mozilla hasn’t proposed that at all.
Anyway, 3D Canvas might be interesting for some lightweight, no-frills clients, but I don’t expect web-based clients to replace dedicated client software as the primary means of connecting to 3D virtual worlds.
They could be a nice secondary means, a way to connect when you’re away from your main computer, or as a gateway client to draw new users into the world. But dedicated clients will always be able to offer richer and smoother experiences, so returning users will still find it worthwhile to download and use a separate viewer application.
@Jacek Hmmm….maybe I’ll change the title – however, they didn’t announce this at the “hardware accelerated 3D graphics” conference, they announced it at the Game Developers Conference. And I’m going to extend the conclusion that if they can get the browser talking to 3D, then some enterprising person who’s good with thinking about clients and such will come along and “deepen” the browser-based client.
Google commented, in fact, that the move would lead to ‘video games in a browser’ (woot! Lively returns!):
“Google was also excited by the prospect of a 3D web standard, which if successful could bring better videogames through the ‘net and pave the way for 3D chatrooms and the like.
“With more and more content moving to the web and JavaScript getting faster every day, the time is right to create an open, general purpose API for accelerated 3D graphics on the web,” said Matt Papakipos, Engineering Director at Google.
“Google looks forward to offering its expertise in graphics and web development to this discussion.”"
Having said that, I agree – clients will remain, for the foreseeable future, the richer and smoother experience. In particular Imprudence.
On 03.25.09 cube inada said:
I think before the cigars get sent around one has to hear from Microsoft and the Directx Posse.
Kronos brings Collada, and Collada will bring Autodesk( to a point) and the Games makers EXCEPT for MS.
opengl vs directx has been a good reason web3d didnt get more usage over this last decade ago. and why kronos now is the announcer of this iniative and not the web3d.org;)
FIrefox with native 3d, great. Will it be a hype bubble for rt3D just as SL has been once “new” marketing folk can finally see web3d production values on their powerbooks and mac desktops.. maybe:0
but making lots of 3d marketing experiments has been done 3 times in a decade( the latest’s in SL ), having them reach a ROI isnt.
Sounds great, but why dont we all wait a bit before declaring the next metaverse. The last one has serious issues that are coming to a head very soon.
unity3d looks good, but unless its bundled with browser installs, it will NEED desirebable content en masses to attract its installation. And many with 3d plugins( even all platforms) have failed to figure out how to make happen before.
Hint, TVs withouts programming were just wood and glass furniture.
For an example of what Chrome and Firefox can already do in 3D using nothing but canvas and javascript, check this out: http://gyu.que.jp/jscloth/touch.html
Now imagine what it will be like when people don’t have to create what is essentially a browser-based software renderer, and can use a real API like a functional subset of OpenGL…
Instead of neat little tech demos, we’ll finally have the ability to host virtual worlds.
/me is obviously still excited about the possibilities I’ve been reading about all day, not just here but at Raph’s blog, and all over the indie gamedev sphere
Why OnLive will not be the massive tectonic shift so many are currently predicting…
Among the things announced this week in GDC were two developments in entirely different directions on a particular axis of games technology: first, the OnLive network of thin clients showing network-streamed video games rendered on a server cluster…
On 03.27.09 smilingman said:
I an new to SL and just starting to find my way around the world. I looked at SL teen and thought that it was a bad setup but good idea.
I like the idea of adult content control but think they should relaunch SL teen as a restricted version of SL and allow those that want more control of x rate content to migrate to a PG rate version.
Maybe its time LL update how user interact in SL and start ranking content provides as a a way to improve the world, SL 2.0 maybe.
On 03.28.09 Alberik Rotaru said:
The main problem with this scheme is LL is trying to set up governance without government. The forum is chock full of Does the Adult classification apply to Case X? The answer is almost always no, but that is not consistent with what the Adult definition actually says.
So we are going o have a regulation where case-by-case declarations by the enforcers override what the regulation actually says. IT’s a coder’s dream to have law-as-code that somehow executes itself without courts, judges or juries. It’s a user’s nightmare to have law=as=code where the enforcers spend all their time insisting that the text of the regulation does not mean what it says.
It would be seriously hard to come up with a more arbitrary scheme of regulation or one that was more open to regulatory griefing.
The race is on now between: Native Browser/Java, Flash(Server rendered and piped or with plugins) and SL like open source 3D Viewers that become full 2D browsers as well.
all at the time we see OpenCL for plug and play physics engines, reduced form factors like Nvidia’s Ion, App stores for components and content, Full HDTV/Browser integration, and iphones as TV remotes and input devices.
This may be a Recession, but everyone sees $$$$$$$$$$$ in the mashup of 3D,Open APIs, SaaS & micro-transactions.
Watch. It is time for Microsoft and Adobe to come out of the closet. Lets just hope we keep the advertisers and Google floundering for a little longer.
I see a very long load bar coming in the future into my browser…it will load so long I will be driven into SL.
This is good news for Raph though.
On 03.29.09 Prokofy Neva said:
I don’t buy what Eris is saying whatsoever.
That’s a thin veil of legitimacy covering a multitude of vast oceans of data, with little or no constraints on the Lindens’ use or potential use of it.
I remember I used to collar Philip Linden and say, Good Lord, you have more knowledge about all the businesses in a world/country than any government in history. How can we have free enterprise…free anything!…in such a setting?
Many businesses simply refused to get started from real life into SL precisey because they couldn’t protect their data stream.
The Lindens are sitting on a gold mine of externalized dreams…how/when/if they will use it is nothing that there is any law about, really, even privacy law.
The Lindens’ ability to obtain immunity from prosecution or limit their liability to litigation isn’t at all the same thing as what they may do on their own with their knowledge of the world scraped from us. The TOS enables them to scrape at will and use at will if you read closely.
On 03.29.09 Prokofy Neva said:
I’m going to defend my use of the term “ridiculous” quite plainly: because it is so. Prof. Robert Bloomfield came on to Terra Nova and said he wanted to find virtual worlds to do prototyping and studies with students in his accounting classes at his university. And I was one of the ones who said, oh, don’t go to those closed war games like Ted Castronova plays, come to Second Life where possibilities are open and unlimited. He at first held this at bay, but then *did* come to SL.
Did Beyers Sellers make any prototypes or models or run them? Did he use SL to make any kind of experiment in business or accounting? Did he perform any research? Did he create any learning experiences for students?
No. None of the above. Beyers did no such thing.
Instead, he created….um…a talk show. He invited people to come on a talk show, let them gab, and he filmed them and put it on TV, and after awhile, even put himself on as a jazz lounge act. Er, where’s the scholarship? Where’s the “idea of the university”? Here he’s bagging on Tom for not having some rigorous methodology, but Tom carefully created a group, held meetings with people and discussed directly with them very specific topics and solicited their input, took notes, did other interviews, and went through the discipline of writing a book about this field exploration. His meetings and group went on for at least a year or more, hundreds of subjects and discussions. There was direct interaction, without the distraction of all the “production” of the Metanomics shtick. Tom talked with people and researched and got input in a rigorous manner, even if he didn’t do a “scientific survey” (there are so many silly ’sociological surveys’ in SL that are skewed from the start that it’s hard to believe they get to be called “science” whereas what Tom did would be questioned.)
So it really is silly. I’m all for having talk shows and guests and chat and jazz. It’s a great way to explore topics. But…to then go around banging on people who actually perform more serious research as not having any methodology, when you haven’t done anything even remotely resembling some sort of academic model, is just absurd.
What’s truly awful about the challenging of legitimate experts like Tom with the sillyness of the Web 2.0 cult of the amateur as Andrew Keen calls it is that he’d have to come on here and keep explaining his credentials.
What needs explaining is why this accountant from Cornell came into SL and didn’t do any accounting or business models, but did a talk show on TV.
[...] to test anthropological theory using virtual worlds as a laboratory. The 20-odd comments on Dusan Writer’s post after the show suggest that there is a lot more to talk about. And talk about it we will — Tom [...]
[...] Writer published some critical remarks on his blog, Dusan Writer’s Metaverse. I’ll mention a few points here, adding my first reactions on his [...]
Metanomics is not my research program. But as the proponents of qualitative research have been emphasizing, it is unwise to try to conduct experiments in virtual worlds without understanding them. Metanomics has been very helpful in that respect.
Here is a paper that conveys where my research program is heading. Could I have written this without running Metanomics? Maybe. But then I wouldn’t have learned what I needed for some of my other projects that are not yet ready for the public eye.
I’ve only just now had time to read this thread, but I highly recommend anyone with a sustaining interest in this issue have a listen at our follow-up discussion which happened today. It should be archived at the Metanomics Web site in the next couple of days.
We had a fascinating conversation today, in which some very salient points were addressed, with the aid of our guest, Thomas Malaby, and our guest moderator, Roland Legrand. Although the dialog covered a lot of ground, it sadly concluded on a somewhat contentious note that brought us full circle back to where we started. I’ll look forward to hear the further engagement…
And by the way, Tom is absolutely correct that I have never referred to myself as an anthropologist and unfortunately, I was erroneously referred to that way again today. I am a games researcher who uses anthropological methods in my work.
[...] Britain, Journalism as Impressionism The UK Telegraph has picked up on the Eric Krangel “drying paint meme” and has declared Second Life “virtually over” in an article that is so weak and [...]
On 04.02.09 Daniel Regenbogen said:
Well, all nice and shiny, but while I agree that SL is far from the death scenario the Telegraph and others come up with once every few weeks, I still have a big problem with the direction I read out of these statements.
I always read “first hour experience”, “new users”, “more users” and so on – it would be nice if LL would do something for the *existing users*, too! Yeah, sure, stability nowadays is better than a year before, downtime cut to half of the old status. Sadly, at the same time, trust in the company and their caring for those who pay their wages during the same time was cut to half, too.
I didn’t see M adressing the problem of users who – as soon as they are in the “net” of Second Life – suddenly are not worth that much anymore. The new blog is a step into the right direction – but a tiny one.
On 04.02.09 Goedeke Messmer said:
Daniel: the problem of focusing on the acquisition of customers versus retaining existing customers is not just a Second Life problem. Technology companies *rarely* seem to think in terms of retention. I license libraries for our development, and one I renewed recently caught me off guard.
Last year, they sent a notice that my annual subscription was up for renewal. So, a month before the subscription expired I renewed. This year, I got a notice my subscription was expiring… 12 months after I renewed. Apparently the system they use is so primitive that it just uses a flat 12 months from the date you repurchased, effectively wiping out a month of subscription for being a good customer that renewed early.
Because of the surprise missing month, I now have the option to repurchase at full price or walk away from the libraries. Guess which option my company will take?
I dunno about the future of SL…and no one else does either as far as I can tell. But where’s something from Kingdon/LL about what the company is committing to doing for its customers–er the ones who pay for sims like Rezzable.
Questions that remain unanswered (and most likely will never be answered):
* who is buying new islands? (why isn’t there an owner directory?)
* how many islands are there really now?
* how big a proportion of the grid is the porno grid?
* What is plan for allowing under 18s in?
* what is the technology roadmap? There are tons of issues and what is LL prioritizing?
* when will there be a standard mesh object?
* will there be web services for SL? What about integration to other communities??
I think that LL has wasted a huge amount of goodwill with the content creators that give life to the SL offering. Providing 16,000 prims for $2,000 to $4,000 per year is very expensive. There are some virtual online alternatives on the horizon and LL should be ready to face a more serious exodus once they are more stable.
[...] metrics and targets for 2009 Posted on April 2, 2009 by Daniel Voyager My Keynotes from Dusan Writer’s blog post on Accenting the Positive: Mark Kingdon Reveals Growth Targets for Second [...]
Lots of good points. An interesting highlight from the Kingdon presentation in France which I didn’t transcribe was his discussion of the three main “prongs” of development and how those assist both new users and current ones. One of his points Web-side that the Lab has taken half a step of 100. I think this responds to RaR’s comments about Web-side things.
I’m a firm believer that the Lab is indicating that Web-side improvements will help facilitate group, commerce, and connection.
As far as statistics, the first quarter is now over. As I understand it, the Lab is releasing Q1 stats, based on comments made on the Linden blog. I was quite vocal about the need for these statistics to be useful for business planning and to get a better read of where the in-world economy is at. I’ve also been extremely vocal about a road map, and Kingdon has said that it is their intention to release road maps – and that the reality is, they didn’t have any. A road map would go a very long way to help current content creators plan their businesses.
Regarding the <18 comment – I think they’ve been fairly clear that this isn’t something they’re attaching to the adult content issue, but that until the adult content issue is managed they won’t look at it. (Yeah, paradox). I think they’ve also hinted that other things like 3D mesh and HTML on a prim are on the horizon, but like other ‘road map’ items they’re opaque about it.
Finally, I agree about tier pricing. I’m on no authority in this area, I’ve heard nothing, and this is total speculation – but I’m expecting a new tier option or pricing change by June. Again – total out of the wild guess.
Daniel – I’m wondering specifically what things you think the Lab should do for residents that its not doing? I’ll say that my major beefs are the following:
- Lack of a road map
- Lack of a road map
- Tier too expensive against current competition and other options
- Lack of progress on group, friends list and other in-world social and noticing functions
- Search still sucks (big time)
- Lack of a really good channel or senior executive advocating for the interests of land owners and content creators
My wish list includes:
- Early discussions on the policy implications of importable 3D meshes towards developing a community-backed road map
- Clickable HTML on a prim and desktop sharing
- A road map
- A road map
Having said all that, the number one things I would have asked for a year ago would have been stability, stability and stability. And I believe good progress has been made on these three fronts.
I also would have asked for an improved UI for the client (which it’s good to hear is coming) and a better Web site (which is getting there).
Ohhh – yessss….editable megas! Let’s admit that they’re not going anywhere and build them in!
On 04.02.09 ELQ said:
Honestly, I think I speak for quite a few of us when I say we don’t want to take away the “programming as entertainment” element. Some of us wouldn’t be nearly as narcissistic in SL without it ;o) . I suspect the largest portion of the consumer population prefer to be consumers, while the smaller creator population actually prefer the learning curve and the challenge it presents.
Agreed. I’d be lost without prims. Scripts I can’t handle, but prims, textures…..mmmmm…..they’re like looking in the mirror.
On 04.02.09 Riven Homewood said:
I haven’t seen any need to learn programming in order to build on sl. It is more like creating art than like writing a computer program. But I am definitely one of the group who love sl’s infinite learning curve! What else is life for, if not to learn?
Very, very good points, Dusan. You know, I have this strange feeling that Second Life is something we’re pretty much “used to”. It’s like… well, Amazon, eBay, PayPal, or even Google — with just a fraction of the user base, granted, but there is this uncanny feeling of a “thing to stay”. I mean, mmmh, we don’t get many articles about “the problems of email in the workplace”. Sure, a new feature of email gets attention from a very tiny group of Slashdotters. A new spam trojan might make the headlines here and there. But, overall, email doesn’t feature on major magazines any more. It’s… “a fact of life”.
SL is “almost” at that point (which is bad, in the sense that it doesn’t have “billions of users” yet). Media reporting on it really have to work hard to publish something that is interesting — even if it’s just repeating “everybody is running away from SL” or “SL has been long dead”, which is, frankly, the kind of story that I wonder how editors are still willing to pay for: The point is, there aren’t many interesting stories about SL that appeal to a wider audience — exactly like there aren’t any interesting stories about email. Or, well, eBay or Amazon (unless Amazon launches something new on their cloud computing arena).
Instead, we just get swamped with stories about Facebook and Twitter. *sigh* It will be a hard blow for the media when they finally burn out their venture capital and have to say “oops, we have no business model, sorry about that”. On the other hand, we have Linden Lab with a business model that is rock solid (even if their technology is not… yet), but that kind of news is… boring. LL are too open about some statistics but…. yes, no roadmaps
However, is there a roadmap for Twitter? For Facebook? For MySpace? I gather not. (Amazon, at least, says what they’re doing outside their core business… and so does Google). The lack of a roadmap doesn’t prevent “social media experts” to drool over companies that we really don’t know anything about. That doesn’t stop them from continue to drool But at the end of the day, when you remove the drool, what will remain…?
You’re right about techies jumping over to “the next best, shiny, new thing”. Wellllll… at least some of them When those techies evolve to become IT consultants, they become conservative. That’s why 40-year-Unix and 40-year-Internet is still around, although sooooo many “shiny new things” have been popping up in the past decades — and quickly forgotten after a few years of “shining”. The old metaphor of burning like a meteor comes to mind. Just 4 years ago people were drooling about Friendster and intrigued if MySpace would ever catch up!… now it’s the war between Facebook and Twitter… and what will come next? Nobody can predict it… but… I can predict I’ll be still paying close attention to Second Life in 2013, even if I might have long dropped my Twitter and Facebook accounts! (The other day I was surprised I still had a Friendster account… somewhere )
It’s interesting that you mention Ugotrade. You’re SO right! I was wondering why I hadn’t read anything from Tish recently — and the answer is simple. She writes now about all sort of things that glitter and shine and catch her attention, but… Ugotrade is not interesting any more. It lacks focus. It lacks vision. When you start looking around for everything shiny and glittery, you lose consistence — a trait you admire so much on M Linden, and which I absolutely agree with you. Even Prokofy has lost his thread, and is now way more happy dissing cloud computing or OpenID than writing about Second Life How long will it take for him to become irrelevant?
A very good friend of mine came to a very interesting observation, which will not be a surprise to you (and to most of your regular readers). Tag something with Second Life, and the SLogosphere will pick it up and amplify it tremendously — waaaay beyond any other environment. And the reason for that? Second Life’s “offworld” interconnection is incredibly powerful because of its consistence. And at this age and day where everything else is too fragmented, that counts a lot. This “magic” of Second Life’s consistency and relationship interconnection is what makes, say, live musicians that have had a MySpace for ages suddenly “pop into existence” after just a few live concerts in SL. They didn’t suddenly become better musicians — or started doing better PR. It’s just the amplifying phenomenon that SL has. Let me try a different example: run a survey to see who still remembers the Sheep and compare it to Rezzable (*bows to RaR*). I’m pretty sure the results will be interesting to follow.
So, of course, everybody knows I’m a SL fan and thus impossibly biased, but for the social media experts, SL is “unexplored territory”. Why does it have this “amplification”, if we just read nonsense and garbage on the media?
The answer is quite subtle. The world is full of people on Twitter and Facebook, but on SL, it’s a different world of quite different people And before my head explodes with the gloat, I’ll leave you in peace…
A few minor points: I think Prok is observing Lent, thus the focus is in different areas. I anticipate the return of focus after Easter.
Something interesting about Twitter – I read somewhere recently that they have so much venture money that they are profitable solely from the interest they earn on banking it – they don’t have much to spend it on (other than servers maybe) because they don’t particularly have a business model to support.
And as for Facebook – well, talk about LACK of consistency. They seem to waffle and change their minds every other week. I can’t help thinking that this lack of consistency and the apparent hubris of their management is a far more troubling sign for a technology ‘darling’ than anything else.
@Riven – I totally agree. Before I came to SL, I knew how to use PowerPoint, Word, and Excel; I could do a little Flash programming; and could run queries in Access and that’s about it.
Because of SL I now know Photoshop inside out, Maya, 3DS, ZBrush, and how to rez prims – mind you, LSL is a mystery, but hey, I’ve been thinking about other things too.
SL never ceases to amaze me – I was commenting on Prok’s blog about Blue Mars…which I don’t think will really compete with SL. I can’t think of another technology platform where there’s something new to learn about the technology ITSELF every day – or some new approach someone has, some mash-up, some augmented reality thing, whatever.
But add to that the fact that the PEOPLE are in themselves some of the most fascinating and intelligent folks I’ve ever met is what continually blows me away – and somehow I don’t think golfing on Blue Mars is going to expose me to the same types of people – narcissists and all.
At any point, your oven could explode, burning your build, and killing your avatar. (circa The Sims)
With a special fancy movement of the mouse, avatars of SL should be able to godlike cast spells (circe Black and White)
If you do not enter the correct password at login, you’ll still be able to go inworld, but within 30 seconds there are hurricanes, tornadoes, and monster attacks (circa Sim City)
Second Life users should develop from multidemenional complex emotional people… into 1 of 2 dispositions… “good” or “evil” (circa Fable)
In seriousness: I’ve been enjoying seeing Metaplace develop too. Although it’s not my personal cup of tea, I like how metaplace is merging the line between Online Virtual World and Ego-Game.
Will Wright has an immense experience in user generated contents for games. He introduced UGC in The Sims pack and then further developed them in Spore and other games.
I think that Will Wright is right when he said:
“The sophistication…was pretty high for a lot of people, programming does not sound like entertainment.”
but we have to decline it in the SL mood.
The problem is not for builder/designers etc…
There are thousands of builders in SL and they are doing a tremendous job……
The problem is to give newbies and others not creators of contents the opportunity to interact more easily with the thousands of user generated contents created in SL.
I mean, if you are a newbie in SL, you haven’t
got the faintest idea where to get wonderful goods for customize your avatar, create your home, stand in cool poses and make fantastic things
Linden Lab bought XstreetSL, it could be a first step in the right direction…but I’m waiting for more integration between the two platforms.
They have to integate the virtual marketplace with the client, they have to integrate the registration process in SL, with the login in XstreetSL and make very easy (idiot proof) for newcomers the routine of buy stuffs in xstreetsl and gain skills in SL
Think to IMVU. They claim 30millions of users. They didn’t get a review on the press, but they have a fully functioning business model and with only a few advertising they are gaining millions of users, each month. Their secret is a perfect integration of the virtual items Marketplace, with the Client and of the Client with the social networking tool. I think that SL, should look at the IMVU experience and work on a better integration of the website/client section in order to become more accessible to new members…
On 04.03.09 Daniel Regenbogen said:
Hi Dusan
What to do to help existing users/customers? You named the road map, that would help already. On the other hand: looking at history, how trustworthy would that be? The open space debacle was a disaster in the field of customer trust. Actually, it wasn’t one, it still *is* one, with some Lindens sending half-signals about the next step in July not happening and no official words at all. The whole LL approach of “we made a mistake – and our customers will suffer for it” doesn’t go well with me (and many others) – and it will be very hard to gain trust again. A good start would be some honesty about own mistakes, instead of all the bright and shiny PR action and blatant lying.
Prices in general are too high, options to only pay what you really use are (at least on the estate sector) next to non-existent. Example how it can be done (from k-grid): you pay a basis price for a region with only 750 prims – and can buy additional prims in packs of 500. Why pay for 15,000 prims when you only need 10,000?
Service fees are a total rippoff, too. $150 for moving a region, and $50 for a rename? How much work is that, 5 minutes? With those 5 minutes including a coffee break. Totally out of line, especially when the need for these actions was triggered by LLs own messup with open space regions.
You are right about the in-world functions. I can’t believe that there still is a 50 percent chance of group chat not working. I can’t believe that we still have only 25 groups available, when on the other hand groups are needed for many inworld settings.
With some exceptions, customer service is bad on many levels. This starts with tickets not being worked on not only for days, but for weeks. Then closing the performance ticket with “everything looks fine” – while the region still is hiccuping all the time. Taking out useful viewer features (Logitech LCD keyboard support) with a “deal with it” attitude.
As Alberik mentioned: editable megaprims! Simply allow creating bigger prims. Again from k-grid: 256 is the limit there, a very useful and reasonable one. And, another nice point: I didn’t run into a “prims are too far away from each other to be linked” message yet.
Very important: work on the amok running g-team members and the policy of “Shoot first, never ask questions later!” when handling ARs. For example underage ARs: it’s unbelievable that accounts of people who successfully (even manually) verified their age already are suspended just because someone sent a fraudulant underage AR against them?. And it becomes totally nuts when that person is asked to send in exactly the same proof of age he already DID sent in months ago. Same kind of problem: returning kids skin vendors with the pictures of topless 4yo girls. At least some members of the g-team need a reality check – right now their actions are more or less cyber terrorism.
LL has to wake up and realize that it aren’t the few big companies who are responsible for the major part of the income – it is the thousands and thousands of little guys. What do they want SL to be: a meeting room for CEOs – or still a world of their customers creativity and imagination?
I’m still in SL, and will be for the foreseeable future. But now I also have a basis in k-grid, as small and shaky and technically behind it still is. The general feeling there is much better than in SL, I feel like I’m really welcome and appreciated there – instead of feeling like being just a paying nuisance in the eyes of LL. LL better wakes up.
[...] or customers. Knowledge Transfer and Productivity Back before I knew the team at Rivers Run Red I conducted an interview with CEO Justin Bovington. In his discussion of the value proposition for IWS, he talked about cost [...]
Reality check after the web2.0 conf ghostown show.
Adobe is lost on web3d. They will only allow 3rd party open source basement teens to direct it’s future. They have buried web3d multiple times going back into the macromedia years. They wont spend real internal A resources on it. They have no reason too since 2d flash and 3d in pdf is their distribution bread and butter. The gimiky 3d they showed as FLASH3D at the web2.0 conference, and their public offereing that their only real clients are the GE’s of the world, suggests the path of adobe web3d for another 3 years.
Adobe wont create any realtime 3d tools, that leaves autodesk and any startups like unity3D and others whom need plugin players since they cant rely on flash to play their code.
The next 3 years –well have a bunch of web3d techs all competing to show 3d in browser again, some with MU, but most will again be 3d in a 2d page.Flash 3d will be what paper3d offers with just more complex meshes and overly simplified avatar graphics moving in first level accelerated 3d scenes. Dont expect even WOW- 7 year old immersion in flash….
For all those with no history, this was exactly the web3d marketplace from 2001-5.;)
Well get more habbo/metas/moshis made by those paid to entertain and make toys and games,, all with a bit more 2.5d and 3d data avatars runing over 2d backgrounds…(AAA game tech in 1998)
But mini habbos made easier for every small biz website? Disguised as conference meeting rooms with scoreboards??..it all sounds very “skip intro movie” to me….
But a metaverse, 3d web, with any real roadmap?,
One can believe in Open Source Sims miracles I guess;)
I still hope theres a few kids in a basement in Iceland that will infect us all with a p2p 3d kazzaa….
It seems to me that many of the Lindens are just out of touch with what goes on in SL, that they themselves don’t even use their own platform?
What does that say that the general communication from Linden Labs to its use base takes place on the web and not on their platform (which they say fosters communication)
They want SL to be the 3d Web, but yet we can’t interact with web pages, and we can only view videos in Quicktime (can someone wake up over there and finally implement flash?)
And do objects farther away from you load first?
And forget 6 million users, when we can barely get 60 people in one place.
“The more this game can be about me, and my real life, and my real experiences and where I live, and my real friends (can mean more than) ‘I’m going to go to the game and become an orc and get a real sword’,” Will Wright
The most important theme Will Wright is putting forward about the future of games is the connection to “my real life, and my real experiences and where I live, and my real friends.” User generated content creation, as pioneered in SL, is being discussed under this larger rubric.
You’re right, and really – this was just a ‘quick link blurb’. It’s taking things a bit far to extrapolate either that SL is for narcissists or that Wright is advocating for much more than the observation that it is the shared experiences with friends and colleagues that can be the attraction for new users of games – for people who feel uneasy about becoming a dwarf or a furry or whatever.
His example of the Wii is telling. Or think Guitar Hero – the experience itself can be shared with “real friends” and is powerful because of that. But the game itself still asks that we enter “another world” and take on other personas.
I know that with GIS and phones and whatever there’s this trend towards the idea that data about your “real self” is connected through the end-to-end Internet and all that – but I see that as a slightly different domain than games and virtual worlds – augmented reality maybe, social networks and life-logging for sure. Will they blur? Yes, of course – I really do believe that Halting State is the clearest vision of where all of this is headed.
But I purposefully didn’t dig into his “real life” comment because it’s too easy to extrapolate that to mean “therefore, the future of mass adoption in games and virtual worlds is all about a 1-to-1 connection of actual identity with our virtual selves.”
I’m not quite willing to believe, I suppose, that augmentationism is the utopian ideal in which because we connect through game/virtual space without the mediator of alternate identity, we merge the actual and virtual, and thus speed the embedding of technology into who we are and what we do.
The more that games and virtual spaces are about shared experiences that feel relevant and social, the better. The more we can do so with friends, the better as well.
But watch kids gaming: they enter alternate realities and play with their friend from around the corner, but also create deep connections with people from the other side of the world, with alternate game spaces as the mediator of social connection, rather than ‘real lives’ necessarily being the jumping off point for connection, or more valued or attractive because of it. If that were the case, then my mom would have joined Facebook so she could play Scrabulous with friends.
I’m thinking here of Born Digital, in particular, as my touch point for a new generation born with twitch fingers and mySpace pages for whom identity and connection shuttles between “real” and “digital” and to whom this parsing of ‘real’ versus ‘virtual’ selves seems ridiculous – it’s ALL real, and what you and I think of as ‘real experience’ and ‘real friends’ are anachronisms.
On 04.05.09 cube inada said:
“it’s ALL real, and what you and I think of as ‘real experience’ and ‘real friends’ are anachronisms.”
Your’e kids still toss out last years Aibo as quickly as you get a new ipod mini, and one good solar flare will point out real from virtual very quickly.
This thread is sounding more and more like 1992 jaron lanier stuff.. burning man -extropian religious vr stuff.
Will Wrights “talents” may have been fun while all his game “humans were ants” scattering around “game board cities”.
“who cares?” wonderful;\, narcissim as virtue not vice.
come on folks. stop blogging answers.. start asking questions…
On 04.05.09 Prokofy Neva said:
Sorry I missed these inworld discussions but they always seem to come at a time when I’m busy with RL work.
I hope you will continue to push back against Robert Bloomfield. Of course, there’s more than a little fraud in all of his complaints as he himself has not himself created any sort of model of the type he insists on nor engaged in any quantitative research in SL. The “happening” of Metanomics itself doesn’t even qualify as qualitative research.
For a good novel that helps you think through and argue against the logical positivists, who have been around for a century, read C.S. Lewis’ That Hideous Strength. While written ages ago in the 1950s, it prefigures the Extropian/Singularity utopian ideals of uploading brains. It’s a great read.
On 04.05.09 Prokofy Neva said:
It’s Palm Sunday — one more week to go, Gwyn : )
I’m reminded that I need to rewrite my big rebuttal of your latest analogue hole denunciation.
I hope the Lindens don’t screw up the viewer on the way to “fixing” it.
I don’t think the Lindens can really have a road map of the sort being demanded of them because the field is too new and the global economic crisis making things too uncertain.
The Guardian, the Telegraph, these are all old media, they’re jealous. They have Web 1.0 and even 2.0 gurus who are profoundly threatened by a platform that unseats them first and foremost, as I’ve explained over and over (i.e. in that thread on the Linden blog about the immersive work spaces).
Spimes? If I ever see one of them, I will crack it. In fact, I’m going to start carrying a little hammer around in my bag for that purpose. Goddamn things. Stop them before they get to a city near you. I’m not at all surprised Ugotrade is seduced by spime power, which was David Orban’s big thing a year ago and for which I denounced him, and for which my blog was even blocked in Technorati for a time (because Joi Ito funds spimes and couln’t bear for them to be trashed, but they have to be).
Please tell me where you can meet more than 60 people on a server — or for that matter, in RL, easily, and inexpensively. And..why you would want to meet with more? If you have a yen for broadcasting, do a podcast and put it up on Talkshoe or go on Qik.tv and stop ranting about the capacity of virtual worlds.
On 04.06.09 Prokofy Neva said:
Will Wright was always trying to figure out how to break real life into pieces to reassemble it into simulated life and use it as a means to study real life. He used to talk about “investing your consciousness in a toy” in The Sims Online. One of the most fun aspects of TSO was getting to talk to Will Wright himself when he game into the game now and then on various characters.
I recently dug up an old Sims game reading list which came in the game instructions (WW would do things like that), which is fascinating:
APPENDIX 2 RECOMMENDED READING Here are some titles that might enhance your understanding of some of the background and social issues entertained in THE SIMS
Warning: all are filled with provocative ideas: Maxis disavows any responsibilty for encouraging deep thought.
Home: A Short History of an Idea by Witold Rybczynski (July 1987) Penguin USA; ISBN: 0140102310
Notes on the Synthesis of Form by Christopher W. Alexander (June 1970) Harvard University Press; ISBN: 0674627512
A Pattern Language:Towns, Buildings, Construction by Christopher Alexander, Sara Ishikawa,Murray Silverstein (1977) Oxford University Press (Trade)
ISBN: 0195019199
Architecture: Form, Space, & Order by Frank D. K. Ching, Francis D. Ching
(February 1996) John Wiley & Sons; ISBN: 0471286168
Housing by Lifestyle: The Component Method of Residential Design by
James W. Wentling (November 1994) McGraw-Hill; ISBN: 0070692939
Time for Life: The Surprising Ways Americans; Use Their Time by John P. Robinson, Geoffrey Godbey (Contributor), Robert Putnam (June 1997)
Pennsylvania State University Press (Trade); ISBN:0271016523
Maps of the Mind by C. Hampden-Turner (March 1982)
MacMittan Publishing Company; ISBN: 0025477404
Hidden Order:The Economics of Everyday Life by David 0. Friedman (September 1997) HarperColLins; ISBN: 0887308856
Making the Most of Your Lama by Linda C. Beattie (Editor),
Araneen Witmor(Illustrator), Kathyrn Doll (Editor), Dr. Linda Beattie
(September 1998) Kopacetic Ink; ISBN: 0961963417
Finding Your Perfect Love by Arthur Clark, Cassandra Skouras
(January 1998)Rosebud Press; ISBN: 0965276902
The User Illusion:Cutting Consciousness Down to Size by Tor Norretranders,Jonathan Sydenham (Translator)(April 1998) Viking Press;
ISBN: 0670875791
On 04.06.09 Prokofy Neva said:
>the connection to “my real life, and my real experiences and where I live, and my real friends.”
Meh, get those spimes off my lawn. Virtual worlds do not *have* to connect to reality, and your connecting virtuality to reality may diminish reality as much as the escape to virtuality does.
Dusan – Yes, of course, the distinction between virtual/real is a fiction and not the point at all. But there is an important shift that has taken place (popularized by the iphone) – networked experiences are increasingly about who YOU are, WHERE you are, WHAT you are doing, WHAT is around you, etc.
On one level it is very simple, being tied to sitting in front of a pc is very restricting and a drag. We are becoming liberated from this lock in to the pc screen in more and more interesting ways. The best of what we have learned sitting behind our pcs, e.g., Will Wright’s comments about where Second Life has been on the right track re user generated content, will influence are creation of new untethered virtual/real experiences.
The frames of augmentation versus immersion and the terms Augmented Reality and Virtual World are inadequate and misleading ways to describe the new untethered virtual/real experiences we can and will create.
Prok – wow, wonderful reading list. Thanks – adding it to your previous references…I’ll hit you up in world to make sure I’ve got them all.
I think Prok is sort of echoing my comments about the real/virtual connection. While I agree Tish that geo-positioning and the ‘untethered Web’ is important, my concerns are around a few things, which isn’t to say that these technologies or trends aren’t useful:
- I’m a strong believer that the concept of the avatar, disconnected or loosely connected to the actual self and identity, is a repository for insights and change that is critical as we grapple with issues of self, society, privacy, and creativity. I tend to resist paradigms that seem, on the surface at least, as if they don’t respect the fundamental value of the avatar.
- I’m also a believer that virtual worlds are a space in which these same issues can be examined, discussed, studied, and a new language can result. Some of the language – immersionist versus augmentationist, or ‘real’/actual versus virtual, or identity versus identification are inadequate to the task but are what we’ve got (this is why I applaud the work of people like Tom Boellstorff, because he represents those who are looking for the language to frame discourse, whether it’s the meaning of AFK or his theories of techne within techne).
- I think virtual worlds are an important exploration space BECAUSE I believe that we need to be exploring these issues of self and identity now. The shift towards the “always on” and “end-to-end Internet” are happening rapidly, and I believe are happening without being tethered to thoughtful discourse around privacy, identity, and surveillance. Sure, the iPhone’s great – but technology is rolling out and it will be hard to put the genie back in the bottle: “real connections, real people” all that stuff – well, first, I frankly don’t need my friends Google mapping me and finding out where I’m drinking coffee. But I may not really have a choice – this Web of information and spimes and appliances and GIS positioning creates challenges that will bite us, and sooner than we’d care to think.
I suppose I sound like a Luddite. But having WHO I am, WHERE I am, WHAT I’m doing, and WHAT’S around me spliced into technology and the end-to-end Internet…to have myself “Web-embedded” like that….well, a Luddite perhaps I shall be.
Regardless, I feel that the use of alternate identities and the metaphoric and literal power of the avatar, the creation of safe spaces that are beyond this “always on” GIS and spime-enabled Web, and a counter-notion to the idea that being continually connected is necessarily a good thing can partly be accomplished by dispelling the notion that immersionist or alternate reality is somehow on a lesser end of the value or adoption spectrum than “hey, it’s the real me, and you can track me because my phone connects me to information appliances embedded in the world around me, and thus the Web is me, and I am the Web”.
On 04.06.09 cube inada said:
even luddites are part of “reality”;)…although many of those who build/design/ and are funded to make networked digital mediation tools and media would rather just “delete” or “banlink” the luddites into the “nature”.
-the machine stops- em forster. 1909. better reading for this crowd:) 100 anniversary, so i guess we can call tish’s guest’s mostly old media thinkers..lol
Count on you for a good historical reference Cube. You’re the conscience of the 80s and 90s I know, just didn’t realize you went back to the early 1900s as well!
*prints out em forster for transit ride home*
On 04.06.09 cube inada said:
Today I’m more a ghost in the machine of christmas past.;
OK this is precious… reality and virtuality the same thing? Will Sterling be the next to mea cupla ala Lanier in the make believe world of the current internets…?
I wrote 3 years ago those who live by the blog will die by the blog.
boing!!!! boing!! looks like reality is hitting him in the nuts. Now i feel for him in realife empathetic ways, BUT….;)
lets see some balance occur…. but binary religious followers should know— heaven or hell is all they get;)
Is the machine is ready to eat one of its most vocal zealots?
BTW- did you like the Forster short story? I read it first in high school in 1980. kicks all CC doctorow, sterling ass;)
and it’s now FREE courtesy of copyright laws, not trendy attention meme bloggers efforts;).
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » CNN on Second Life Medical Training [...]
On 04.09.09 Prokofy Neva said:
Re: “Moodle is the world’s most popular open source learning management system, with over 30 million users”
I question this claim. I think what happens is that in-group of opensource boosters tell each other on forums “Oh, I’ve just installed Moodle and I teach a class of 100″ or “I have 2,000 students in all my courses” and that way they can all claim “users”. These hapless users have Moodle pressed on them.
I encountered Moodle in that massively ridiculous massively multiplayer online course in “Constructivism” this last fall, and I found it clunky, annoying, filled with opt-out features people hated, etc. Like Drupal. Like other opensource thingies we are all “supposed” to like. If it worked, if it wasn’t clunky and non-user-friendly, if the people flogging it weren’t so religious about it, it if were self-evidently easy to use and helpful, I’d have no need to post here.
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » Quick Link: Will Wright Says Second Life is On the Right Track – Virtual worlds and creativity, business, collaboration, and identity. [...]
[...] Insider Linden Lab Finally Cracks Down On Second Life Porn by Eric Krangel on Silicon Alley Insider Quick Link: Will Wright Says Second Life is On the Right Track on Dusan Writer’s Metaverse Teaching journalism with virtual worlds by Cory Doctorow on boing [...]
I’m pretty sure Dan, if you’re referring to Prok, that he’s not a Blackboard employee.
I have issues with Moodle as well, by the way, and I do feel it’s the victim of one of the perils of open source projects: it is not as polished as it should be, and it ends up with clunky bits and pieces and a crappy interface. I can’t really comment on the install base, it’s a good point however – metrics like that can be a slippery issue. Besides – maybe half the users are bots.
On 04.10.09 Eris said:
Wow, impressive! Is this related to the ‘Texture Pipeline Improvements’ Linden have previously scheduled. Are we talking a shift in transport from UDP to HTTP for example?
/me applauds Tom Grimshaw for proviing what I and Balpien Hammerer have been telling Linden Lab for months… and for doing what Linden Lab failed to do. GO TOM!
And yes, when Linden Lab announced their “grid in a box” offering the first two things that hit me were:
1. It’s not gonna be cheap
2. OpenSim is already doing that for free
I should have pointed that out, I suppose Raph – but chat within a platform isn’t as much of a stretch as chat across platforms. You don’t see people in WoW chatting with folks in LOTRO, at least not from “within” the environment.
What’s interesting about your comment is that you are calling them “worlds” – and I sort of think of it as one world (or community, say) which has many smaller environments – it’s a world tied together by the community functionality and sense of shared spaces.
The fact that you call it cross-world implies that you think of Metaplace as a community with individual worlds within it? I think of Metaplace as a world with a very dispersed and widely varying geography that will soon start to propagate across the Web.
And btw – in Second Life, you can chat across “world” (i.e. sims) as well – so does that mean they beat you to it.
Ordinal – I reference this particular event because I experienced it.
I wasn’t really talking here about whether the technology was some sort of blockbuster – it’s chatbridge, and Grace’s cross-world concert was another example of sorts. If I made this sound like I was raving about the technical accomplishment I apologize.
Miki Gymnast, best I can tell, has taken the technology component much further.
I’m more intrigued by the experience of bridging worlds and the sense of shared community that it can provide. That was the main point of the post, or thought it was.
Pardon me while I scrape my jaw off the floor. Simply amazing speed!
I, for one, have been on the receiving end of dismal texture load speeds since joining SL. I can’t afford the ultra-fanciest computer equipment, so I get to trudge and slog through grayness the majority of the time.
Oh, if only would LL hear my cry and actually make speedy, efficient texture loading a priority and a reality. Haven’t I suffered enough? (On the plus side, I can navigate almost exclusively with my minimap–it’s like a 7th sense, except that my 1st sense is all gray to begin with…)
you know sometimes… just fot meta yuchs, I actually “email” a person when using SL.
Or if i really want to be cutting edge, I’ll “call someone” on the phone when still looking at the world of wide, the web.
Once i even think i turned my head and spoke to one person on my left, and then turned my head to speak to the other person in the world to my right..;)
ok..im done..lol;)
c3
On 04.10.09 Alberik Rotaru said:
I dropped my jaw too. But then I asked myself why LL has not even bothered to test the Balpien/Wayfinder idea and my jaw was straight back on the floor.
No, I was being a little snippy there, which I shouldn’t have – these things are useful and I’m sure that it was a productive discussion. I suppose that I am concerned that Metaplace, something which I very much like the sound of, still does not seem to be being used for anything in anger, as it were.
I’m pretty hesitant to use the term ‘virtual world’ – to date, nobody’s been able to define the world part satisfactorily: That is a definition that encompasses what they call a world, and excludes that which they do not.
I find it interesting that people would categorise Metaplace and Second Life under the same umbrella, when truthfully they are very different applications and aimed at very different targets.
Personally, I believe there is a big distinction between a virtual chat room and a virtual world; I think that content and flexbility are equally as important as the community.
Regardless, am I the only one that notice the sign appears to read “S&M Idea City”?
I have a hard time calling a metaplace room a world. The rooms that you see are so confined that calling it a world demises the word world. That doesn’t mean there can’t be nifty games/things in metaplace.
I was exploring a bit, and came across a couple of interconnected rooms, sharing a similar theme. Going from one place to another. Those rooms together gave me more of a world feel, which was nice. sadly I started to wonder, and what can I do here, like a sl noob.
I doubt that there any deeper games or experiences yet that make you come back to it.
First, the definitions of virtual world have been fairly settled for around two decades, so it’s interesting to me to see that people aren’t sure what one is. If it simulates space in some fashion, provides a proxy for users in the space, runs persistently independent of the users, and supports multiple users simultaneously, it’s a virtual world, whether it then has games, chat rooms, or whatever in them.
In Metaplace’s case, each world is a standalone server process capable of running anywhere, with its own completely independent codebase of behaviors. This is not true of an SL sim, where the common codebase of behaviors, automatic sim proxying, and so on, make it a coherent space.
Frans, don’t be fooled by the size we have chosen to offer; the technical capability is far more than that. The reasons why you can’t make places of much larger size have more to do with marketing than technology.
@Raph
Maybe this is just semantics, but while you call an individual “space” a world, my experience so far has been that the SENSE of multiple users being simultaneously supported has been accomplished because of the fact that those worlds ‘connect’ through shared chat, tools, badges, Web site, friends lists, etc.
For you to say that each world stands alone and independently negates the fact that so far, at least, the thing that binds Metaplace together are these tools. In the absence of badges, a friends list, a shared “destination portal” etc – these may be individual worlds but they aren’t worlds I’d particularly return to because there’s no one there.
As Prok says – a world is a world because it has people, place and drama. And in Metaplace the drama is, to a great degree (or in my experience anyways) supported through these tools. “World” as the site of “culture” maybe, rather than whatever technical definition you want to give it, which is where perhaps I split hairs.
So while coherence isn’t currently achieved by a shared behavior codebase across ’spaces’, the coherence is achieved through these other things. When I’m in Metaplace, I’m glancing down at how many points I have, I’m tracking my friends online, I’m viewing my badges, and I’m jumping back and forth to the shared spaces of the Web site and the main “hub”.
I also think you’re splitting hairs because you want to make the point that Metaplace can be used to create worlds anywhere, easily, it’s like the Web, etc etc etc and god forbid it be associated with SL with which, as Tom points out, isn’t really a serious proposition (not meaning that Metaplace isn’t serious, just meaning they have very different ‘flavors’, attractions, code, etc.).
I don’t really think anyone will get the two confused, but maybe I’m wrong. And sure, you can keep going around and talking about how it’s NOT SL, although it risks sounding like a negation.
In the end we can set aside the semantics and change the conversation to one of ‘culture’ if you prefer: Metaplace may technically consist of 100s of worlds; but Metaplace as a culture is so far bound together by the shared sense of social connection through a broader set of artefacts that bridge those worlds. The resident protest wasn’t about what happened to individual worlds, it was about the cross-world artefact of meeping.
As time goes on and Metaplace worlds pop up all over the Web and those shared artefacts become less significant fine – each may have very distinct cultures. But so far, these shared tools and social connections are what makes Metaplace interesting to me – but if you want the domain of discourse to be on the individual chat rooms (or ‘worlds’) then I’ll be looking for a bit more ‘culture’ at that level, and I fear for now that it will look a lot more like Lively than SL at that level – empty rooms disconnected.
I wonder: in WoW or other MMOs, I’ll take it that an individual shard is a world, per Raph’s definition. But if users on one shard could communicate with users on another while “in” the world, does this bridge mean that it is separate worlds talking to each other?
When we talk about the ‘economy of WoW’ or the ‘culture of WoW’ should we be clear that what we’re talking about are ‘the common economic insights from the individual sharded worlds of WoW’? (The worlds of worlds of warcraft?)
Which reminds me – where was this ‘decades old’ definition finally chiseled in stone? Best I can tell having read pretty much everything out there on the subject, it seemed to me that it was generally accepted as ONE main definition, but that there remains lots of dissension and plenty of alternate views – seems to me the literature gravitates to this for expedience sake in many cases because there are more interesting things to debate, but that it’s not like some sort of Oxford Dictionary entry or world standard or something.
I am not trying to make the argument on the basis of Metaplace’s brand identity, really, but more on the purely technical and factual level. I completely agree with you that as far as brand identity, we’re actually pushing entirely the opposite story! When asked by non-VW folk, I generally speak of Metaplace as a singular entity. And I agree that until such time as some of the worlds within the MP network reach a certain level of critical mass themselves, it is a network most interesting as a network, and not because of any given node.
When I made the original comment, it was actually more on the technical basis than anything else. MP’s own chat backend (not the bridge used for this event) uses Jabber, so it’s intended to quite readily bridge to any number of things, really; that’s what we use to allow MP worlds to communicate with one another.
Now, as far as cultural significance of bridging between worlds, that’s an interesting topic in its own right. VWs, particularly “social” ones not oriented around games, have a long history of “calving off” from earlier worlds, often down to the technical level. One consequence of this was a greater sense of shared culture across the different worlds.
Cross-world protocols for chat bridges date back to at least the early 90s, and were actively used in a few cases to bridge between “parent” and “child” MOOs and MUSHes. Meanwhile, the cultural gaps that remained the strongest were actually those that lasted across codebases; the space between Diku players and MUSHers was, and remains, large.
None of this prevented people from fruitfully recognizing that despite truly enormous differences in audience, intended purpose, and culture, game muds and education-centric MOOs were still “the same thing” in a deep and binding way…
As far as the definition… probably the most commonly referenced these days is Bartle’s in DESIGNING VIRTUAL WORLDS, because it was in print and commonly cited as authoritative.
Thanks Raph – I use Bartle as my own reference point.
But this discussion has really intrigued me (sorry if I sound at all argumentative, because this is a fascinating topic, and something I’ve been pondering a lot lately).
I’m wondering whether the definition of virtual worlds is being influenced by emerging ideas around community, identity and ’space’ as it starts to take alternate forms across the Net. It used to be we’d think of a Web site, but if a Web site also contains a Metaplace world, or a Facebook profile contains a world, and those worlds include connections via Twitter or whatever to other social ’spaces’ (albeit not always 3D), then I wonder whether our definitions aren’t starting to blur slightly.
OK – kind of a trailing thought here maybe. Have to think about it more I suppose but thanks for an engaging discussion.
Actually, there is only one world. Mine.
I am at the centre of that world, and I dont particularly care how you call the streets, villages, towns, countries, webservices, virtual visual area’s, chat connections and more places that make up my worlds. Thats all metaversial semantics.
On 04.13.09 Prokofy Neva said:
It’s funny — while SL and MP don’t have that much in common as platforms, people worked at hooking up their chat – and it was more because the people knew each other to start with. They go to the same game conferences or something. So it was more about people knowing each other and wanting to get these two worlds to sync up then a sort of natural bridging. But I agree with Dusan, that’s the way to do it, because otherwise it’s artificial and even destructive, as MMOX is showing.
I will go on feeling as if Raph’s “worlds” are really like “lots” in the Sims Online or “sims” or even “parcels” in Second Life. I hear what you are saying, Raph, about how there are these stand-alone code bases and whatnot, but I’m just saying what it *feels* like now. I don’t feel as if I have a “world” all of my own in MP. Perhaps if I knew how to work the levers. But I feel as if I’m going to be dependent on everybody else’s knowledge, products, etc. so I have kind of a little satellite to their worlds/parcels/sims.
Maybe when the lots grow bigger and more happens on them they will feel more like standalone worlds.
I also hope you are not wasting resources somewhere keeping my “world” in a standalone box for me because I’m likely never to be able to work it up to much beyond the hotel, i.e. I think it would be a shame to be devoting an entire server to it, it could be shared with somebody else.
5 февраля компанией «Полисет-СБ» будет представлена комплексная система безопасности под названием «Экспресс». Данная демонстрация пройдет в Москве в Выставочном комплексе «Крокус Сити», ведь именно здесь в это время и будет проводиться выставка «Технологии безопасности», тематике которой «Экспресс» полностью соответствует.
Dusan, I completely agree with your point — and I think things are going to be changing to support those of us who prefer human stories to quantitative data. Daniel Pink has a new book out (”A Whole New Mind: Why Right-Brainers Will Rule the Future”) in which he makes a compelling case that our left-brain-focused society is on the way out. That gives me hope.
…there is one other possibility that is being neglected…. that virtual worlds can be contexts for qualitatively researching issues that are ethically or practically impossible in off-line contexts…such as sexuality or violence… such qualitative methodologies are able to produce understanding that is simply not feasible quantitatively precisely because of the potential disjunctures between on-line/off-line worlds… so “ethnographic experimentation” in virtual worlds need not just be read as favoring quantitative over qualitative research
Dusan, congratulations on your new relationship with Rivers Run Red, may it prove successful for both of your groups.
At last I am seeing (in your writeup, not so much at the Immersive Workspaces website) the beginnings of articulating why a 3D space with avatar might bring about more meaningful interactions than other web/telephone based meetings. As I make my case for considering it at my workplace, demonstrating this will be the hurdle while the technology is still in the realm of early adopters.
What is needed in my humble opinion are demonstrations and anecdotal stories/case studies backed up with scientific findings that show how our communication/collaboration is affected/enhanced with virtual world tools compared to more standard web/telephone or real life meetings.
We actually fly to meetings about how to reduce carbon footprint – but before you laugh, explain to me why I am flying to a meeting on virtual worlds?
[...] Rivers Run Red saved a client over $1 million dollars with a presence in Second Life using their Immersive Workspaces (TM) solution (in the comments of this post). [...]
[...] blogs, briefly mentioned on Virtual Worlds News, and covered more extensively on Osprey’s, Dusan’s, and Rik’s blogs. Rik also has an interesting screenshot on his Flickr [...]
great effort. We are upgrading this week and hope this fix is in. Tom — what is your shirt size! http://rezzable.com/tshirts we send you a freebie.
On 04.14.09 Jeff L said:
Hi~ I tried the source file from “Reaction Plus has released a ‘rework’ of the White Void premise, including source code.”, but after I just export the swf with source fla, edited nothing, the 3d plane can not wobble, and it can only move with x and y axis, please help for solution.
On 04.14.09 sherrymerry said:
hi all
i found an article at flashenabled,one of the comments at this page–>http://flashenabledblog.com/2008/04/15/source-code-whitevoid-clone-by-craig/
by karlmaier said that by adding this line
camera.target = DisplayObject3D.ZERO
[...] Screen and the Great Divide Tom Boellstorff, in his study of Second Life, struggled with the issue of finding a terminology and frame of reference for our virtual selves. [...]
On 04.14.09 Anhkah said:
I could see people developing romantic relationships virtually where they never met in the material world. They could even marry legally by proxy and conceive children through postal artificial insemination, but what then of the children of such unions? Just a strange flight of fancy at this point, but hey.. It could happen!
While we cannot touch each other in virtual environments, as poignantly expressed in artist Alpha Auer’s “Body Parts” installation: http://npirl.blogspot.com/2009/03/body-parts-virtual-lovers-are-star.html, we can, and do, meet. We meet people from all over the world and share the same virtual space with them, and that is a gift beyond measure. Kudos to Newsweek for an intelligent and balanced piece.
All virtuality groping into our reality requires this examination.
When the audience is many, the reflection becomes a culture. When the audience is one, the reflection becomes just another reflection.
The contradiction of the meta becomes even more obvious as we all “accelerate” our passings BUT try to convince ourselves we have “deepened” our connections.
Media Induced Pyschosis- MIPS. Its been the growing human condition for a century, and I dont see any singularity/transformative cure yet:)
Interesting that TRIBE, and GROUPME type websites keep failing the mass media meme test while MYspace, and FACEbook and Twitter, the more narcissitic the more valued?, type offerings keep growing and reflecting in our society.
Will Wright talks about Narcissism and the audience see’s it as a positive development in affect. very odd.
The metaverse will become more and more important with new interfaces. SL is a leap forward – one that was envisaged by SF writers such as Arthur C Clarke when describing how people can meet without travel. SL relationships and friendships are every bit – and more – personal and real experiences as letter correspondence. We hold up love letters as a great literary and “real” experience. Two people – or more where friendships are concerned – meeting and working/playing/loving together in a “metaverse” is most definately as real as any other relationship (the only sense not stimulated is smell…:)
SL is also a place where politics can be fought/debated and agreement found through an interface where the consequences of war etc can be seen as, well, lack of communication, hence, useless. No-one wins. People who use SL regularly usually get over disagreements and come to some sort of agreement and find they can work together.
Those on the left can argue/ fight/ disagree and find what unites them by joining sl left unity.
Теперь я скажу несколько слов о подводке к дичи молодой собаки и о ее стойке.(В работе собаки по дичи следует различать 4 момента (подразделения) ее работы:
1 — поиск, длящийся до того момента, как собака начнет причуивать признаки присутствия дичи в доступном для ее чутья расстоянии;
2 — потяжку — работа собаки, разбирающейся в донесшемся до нее запахе до момента окончательного определения ею наличия дичи; эта работа заканчивается
[...] anticipated Blue Mars for a long time, saying a year ago that it would raise the bar on what people expect from the visual presentation of virtual worlds. [...]
[...] He writes about virtual worlds, not just about SL. I have learned many interesting things about OpenSim and the discussions on interoperability. There have been posts on corporations doing business in [...]
Dusan, you righly are pointing out that BlueMars will be more of a competition for MMOs, console games, and perhaps casual games like Metaplace.
I thought the same thing, but after reading the really interesting interview on Bettina blog, I’m starting to think that they will place the brand exactly in the middle between the traditional MMOGs and the new social worlds.
From a certain perspective they are looking at the traditional scene of gamers and online massive multiplayers. You can see that from their attention to the gaming slang, launguage and mood. But from the other side, they are clearly looking at the social worlds people. Think to their attention to the educational, creative and corporate uses of the platform.
They are exactly in the middle of the road also in the context of user generated contents. From one side, the regular users won’t have any chance to create contents. From the other, the developers, for free, will have the chance to download a series of tools and create/import/upload freely their contents on Bluemars.
I saw the same approach with Kaneva, if though with less interest towards users/developers contents and with Metaplace, that is actively positioning both for mmorpg users and virtual worlds members, if though “in a sort of casual mode”.
I also think that this sort of mixing between social worlds and mmorpg could benefit the whole industry and acelerate the acknowledgement of metaverse culture.
@Pierluigi: As for the MMOG/social-environment divide, Entropia already straddles that – and I’m not sure that the blending is very successful. Are you?
I do agree that a high percentage of Mac users are early adopters of new technologies.
Also, I’m really skeptical of the long term prospects of any platform that is windows only. I know that sounds insane, but I believe in a few years windows will be fairly marginalized and that various unix based operating systems will be much more prevalent. It seems short-sighted to ignore that, but I suppose for the time being it just irritates us Mac users, and most people don’t care, so it’s irrelevant to game/VW platform creators now.
Definitions count. Depending on how the Lab has defined “repeat logins” (and I can think of at *least* two ways) that chart could as easily represent grid instability combined with viewer crash rates, rather than returning users.
Without the definition of what the data means, it’s *interesting* but it’s not actually *useful*.
I entered the virtual world as contemplative artist and playful observer, not as gamer, social seeker, or advertising target (though I’m not averse to those- just not interested or able to play the active role), and am already put off by the huge differences in visual quality and performance on my Mac in Second Life. I have no desire to enter and learn and help grow an alternate virtual world unless one opens up that not only supports but is enhanced by Mac platform. There is only so much time in a day or, more importantly, a lifetime. I’m thankful that I do have the choice to use a Windows machine and sometimes must because I need to be able to see richness of detail and clarity of light that is not possible to see on even my newest Mac, but this frustrates me to the point I sometimes wonder why I bother.
True enough that we don’t know what “repeat logins” means precisely.
However, given the documented increasing stability of SL and the viewer, it seems unlikely that the growth curve is reflecting to any significant degree instability/crash-related logins.
To me, it still depends on what data we’re actually seeing charted. It’s got a name, but that could be quite a number of things.
I can’t in all honesty view the graph as much more than a curiosity without more information.
On 04.15.09 Pierluigi Casolari said:
@Tateru I think that online gamers were (and probably still are) the leading generation for 3d virtual worlds and virtual environment users. People in the gaming and mmog scene created machinima, fan art. They are familiar with user generated contents. Some companies in traditional mmorpgs are also opening to a wide-huge use of user generated contents and there are no obvious reasons for this gap between social worlds and more traditional multiplayers.
All of this background could be a resource for social worlds.
I have a Mac laptop which I use for all the usual stuff, and is my primary machine for accessing SL for business meetings, collaboration, that kind of thing.
I have a high-end PC for when I’m rezzing prims and because it supports 3DS and ZBrush and has high-end rendering hardware.
On 04.15.09 cube inada said:
its bettina whos answer i think is more telling….
i was mac till 96, then added pcs to do rt3d since apple had no vision then:)
but as you suggest you do your SL and presentations on the mac, i would suggest that its still as it has been for a decade
no mac, no creatives that sell(make money from it) no virtual worlds 3d only another game engine built…lol
On 04.15.09 Anonymus-Not said:
Now, who cares about Mac OS other than the fanboys/-girls?
Share of desktop operating systems:
Windows Vista 22.29%
XP 68.27%
2000 1.24%
Total Win 90.99%
Mac OS 4.81%
Linux 1.05%
OMG, more people uses Win2k than Linux! Bad news for Mr. Tux. (I use Ubuntu though, tee-hee.)
i didnt say creative pros and amatures are fanboys of mr.jobs… they sadly are… as i was once…
but your numbers are irrelevant to the intent of what matters…
that 4.8 % are responsible for aprox 90% of the “paid for” content offered on the web that worth playing with or looking at.
in the tiny vr worlds fifedom of SL that is the only one, maybe IMVU to a bit. that offers mass 3d build tools for resale objects inworld, id bet the mac pc creator number is about 60-70% mac dominant, is there a linden labs blog on the mac/pc creation rates…?
bettina, what is the ratio of your NPIRL group?
On 04.15.09 Hypatia Callisto said:
I was once a mac user, and had to decamp to Windows back in 2000 due to a lack of good support for 3d.
IMO it’s not changed a whole lot, though it has gotten better. But most professional pipelines are not Mac-based in the game industry, they are quite firmly based on windows and 3d Studio Max is still the unquestioned juggernaut of most of the artists.
I personally support crossplatform 3d programs (like Modo) but seriously I doubt that Microsoft will lose its dominant position anytime soon, just like it hasn’t in the last 9 years since I moved to MS.
A very sleepy Bettina checking in. I have 3 pcs, two on xp and a laptop on Vista which I loathe. Used to have a Macbook Pro, which I enjoyed very much, but gave it to my daughter.
For once it will be a joy to watch a world get up and running that doesn’t cater to Macs and geek early adapter sandbox types who crash sims, but to more refined creators who go through the strainer of an application system.
But as I’ve noted on my blog, and as you can see from the discussion there, a world where you can’t jump in and create at an amateur level is very dichotomized and a gulf between “talented” and “not talented” enlarges.
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.
As for sex, I’m betting that they will figure out how to allow this by saying it’s up to developers to label their worlds.
As for this Vista stuff, I saw it and checked it out. Vista, like it or not, is on every single computer sold in every mainstream normal computer store now, i.e. not all those geeky sites with names like Eggz4U or whatever but ordinary Best Buy stores. Furthermore, the graphics card that can play SL better, and play Blue Mars, is now in a lot of the Vista machines in the ordinary stores. So the time has come, and Blue Mars is ready for it, that’s not going to be an issue, from what I can tell.
Great posts both Dusan and Bettina. I believe it’s still just a beginning phase so a new platform entering this market has a huge chance. BM sounds like a platform with mixed functionality, hope their content creation and process will empower a vibrant economy, like one created in SL.
On 04.16.09 Hypatia Callisto said:
I think a lot of people are discounting the netbook market, which cannot do content creation in 3d whatsoever, yet can play Cryengine based games through a web interface like OnLive.
These may have a preponderance of Unix operating systems, but content creation on these systems is a moot point, you won’t be able to run the apps necessary to create it, unless they are also “virtualised” in the cloud – which I doubt will happen with most of the graphics apps anytime soon. You’ll be a “viewer” on these platforms in the main. Welcome back TV I suppose.
On 04.16.09 cube inada said:
TV never left..lol it’s become youtube/hulu. and video storytelling wont die soon…neither did radio for TV..
Wake up Bettina:)– mac vs PC.. not just you..lol, but the NPIRL galz and boyz….the list on the pages rt side:) Macs or PCs?
Flash 2d animation /art exploded a decade ago from the MAC side…
The question is “have” enough creators working in 3d moved onto ownership of PCs as well…3DMAX.etc… or on they all on Macs still in the creative studios from NY to LA…
IF yes, web3d worlds may grow faster, if still NO, then as its been for 10 years, the wait will continue. But flash 3d -paperlike stuff- will grow- as it did in 2001-3 again. Erain stuff. but not worlds, really.. more metaplace tiles at best.
SL – was because of internal 3dtools/prims/PLUS IP rights , a lucky accident;) for many amatures to 3d media.. Thats as its obvious now, has been both good and bad for many who responded to the blog hype-press;)
On 04.16.09 Hypatia Callisto said:
2d media pros are often on macs
3d media pros are often on PCs, or even more obscure platforms like SGI workstations.
Cube, I think you’re not in the real world… 2d and 3d are different worlds. When I transitioned from 2d to 3d, I had to give up the mac. Most 3d pros are not on macs. It’s just a fact of life, not a judgement.
I like macs, don’t get me wrong, but the 3d world is mostly PC, and so your argument is lacking. You’re just acting like a fanboi, while missing the point that the virtual world biz will probably hold a lot of different platforms by the time its all through. Just because one isn’t working for your platform doesn’t mean none of them will, nor will the lack of Mac mean disaster for a Windows based world, nor will the lack of a mac client even prevent Mac users from entering it via bootcamp and similar.
On 04.16.09 Hypatia Callisto said:
And one of my best pals runs Windows in a window, on a Mac Pro… it’s as easy as that, really.
Bleh, fanbois.
On 04.16.09 cube said:
lol.. im in the real world…. and I have a real world history between the mac and the pc, and the 2d/ 3d folks youre talking about. 20 plus years of them:) I introduced realtime 3d for apple in NY on the mac in 1995( epic apple fail) and bought the first version of lightwave for the PC in95 as well. for example.:)..plus i ran 2 web3d sigs from 1996-2003.
I think youll find that the “amatuers” that fill up and “created” things Like Second LIFE, from the creative side hype, are mainly mac folks, clothing textures(2d) and all.
YOull also find that creative media agencies are all mac dominant still, and thus didnt “believe” in 3d on the web until SL was on a mac in 2006.
And believe it or not, 3d game pros, using max and maya STILL dont really care about virtual worlds like Blue Mars, unless they are paid to work on/for them.:) Just as 2d pros in animation cared nothing for flash on a mac in 1996:)
in 2009 i do believe that cross platform has finally made a dent in the creative cgi users market.
how large a dent again, will be seen by the adoption of any of the windows only “virtual service worlds platforms”
where I am in the world dosent matter hypatia, where the rest of the world IS, will to the many who are spending tons of time and money in web3d content plays again.
On 04.16.09 cube said:
btw-:)
“2d and 3d are different worlds. ”
that statement is very true from a creative service industries POV of the last 10 years….
but its also exactly WHY…windows only, or mac only web3d/ vr WORLDS online have failed for a decade.:)
in SL, both 2d and 3d combine, with some scripts, and hopefully some business accumen, to create a “new media” type.. REALTIME 3D.. rt3d. media.. which is what Im talking about, its what all these blue mars want to facilitate and transform into microcomerce trade profits…..
that IS the real world, one ive been in for a decade waiting for you all to show up at;) and since the 2006 SL/blog break through of hype:) many(millions of you..lol?) are now here:)
Well, call me a pessimist, but these are not statistics to feel great about.
It’s true that one analyst might say that yes, indeed, repeat logins are steadily increasing, but in reality one might also say that they’re increasing at the same level as they were back in July 2006.
The problem is, as the number of active users rises, this figure will naturally also rise – we would need to cross reference these figures the number of active users to find out if /repeat logins per active user/ are indeed increasing or dereasing.
I was really happy that Newsweek wrote a story on our story. I have met many couples who have met online and have lived to have successful and happy marriages. People are always skeptical about online love, but until you experience it… it can’t be understood. Because it’s too hard to fathom it. I’m very thankful for what I do have… no matter “how” I found it.
The main differences between Blue Mars and Second Life are:
The Blue Mars platform has a superior performance in terms of visuals, physics and simultaneous occupancy.
Second Life permits end user created content.
I think the majority of Second Life users don’t really care too much about creating content. In the early days of Second Life most users were also creators but, after the massive growth of SL (yes — despite the bad press of 2008 which inevitably followed the good press of 2007, Second Life is very much alive and growing) most users are just users. But a subset of very creative and energetic users is and will continue to be attracted of the unlimited, informal and casual creativity permitted by SL. These users will stay in Second Life and continue to create compelling attractions, which will also keep casual users in. Also, the social community of frequent SL users is very strong, with personal and group bonds which are hard to break and will tend to keep everyone in. Blue Mars is one of the most exciting new developments in the metaverse, but it is not a Second Life killer. I expect both platforms will flourish.
At the same time Blue Mars can and probably will be more appealing to corporate and public sector operators. Dusan has concisely stated why: “For a consumer brand – a Red Bull or a Coke or whatever, the ability to tightly control the user experience will be a godsend after the flying phallus days of SL. The ability to track users, their time in a space, and to provide AI ’shop keepers’ – all big pluses.”. The flying phallus comment refers to the unrestricted user creativity in Second Life has resulted in some bad press: most articles about Second Life in the non specialized press are about virtual sex, scandals, financial scams and gambling — even though the last two things are history after Linden Lab has banned SL gambling and unregulated banking, and VR sex may soon follow. When I talk to new clients about Second Life, this is the kind of questions I get most. As a result of the bad press Second Life has been considered as an image problem by the most conservative operators, and I expect they will prefer the more controlled environment, and of course the superior performance, of Blue Mars.
I am especially interested in the the applications of online VR to education. The Cry Engine 2 platform upon which Blue Mars is based is more and more frequently used for education and professional training. Though there are no examples at this moment, I assume that the system components and educational material used for classes in Second Life, Power Point, video, voice, streaming video, Moodle integration etc., will be implemented by Blue Mars developers. But I expect the most popular edicational applications in Blue Mars will be those that require highly realistic VR environments with state-of-the-art visuals, illumination, physics and AI. Architecture of course, engineering, professional training for the industrial machinery, space, but also history and the visual arts. I expect historic events to be faithfully recreated in Blue Mars, and the platform to become a favorite of machinima producers.
Great articles from both Newsweek and Dusan! This deals with observations that also fit very well in the discour I was thinking of when I created the online debate group “Second Life – Is REAL!” over 18 months ago.
Please also join us there for discussing about the reality of new non-physical and live interactive narrative online communications. And what it’s relevance could be in the history of mankind… http://flickr.com/groups/slreal
who would have thought – there’s money even in virtual death. now all we need is the same service for atheists who want to be remembered and who want to offer their loved ones a place to go to 21st century style to mourn or just learn something about you (what they never did while you were still alive). I know I would love such a place for my late grandma. I’ve been thinking about virtual portraits in this context. maybe it’s time.
On 04.18.09 cube said:
in 1996 we had set up “memorialnet.com” and even went online with 3d vrml memorial sections….. had a few “advanced” investor types looking.. but they couldnt see the generational hump….
i met a fellow last week or so at web2.0 conf..(dead as it was..lol) who today owns a website cemetery and is doing quite well…
death and taxes… and tech conferences….the eternal never ends.
Thanks for the comments – and for those of you who tweeted as well….I’ve frankly been thinking a little more about this. While I was snarky with my initial take – I mean, this seems like a lot of “upsell” by the funeral industry to me, there’s also something more profound in the idea of virtual artefacts.
I wrote a while ago about death and grieving and virtual worlds, so I’ll point in that direction if you want my less snarky take on things.
Even in a virtual world people become attatched and need to grieve when they lose someone. Our service is totally free in Second Life Open to all residents of sl ,and now just recently added a first life section for friends or family that have passed. In world 17 months now running on donations and my pocket Stop by very tactfully done Mike Burleigh Caretaker/Founder Remembering our Friends Memorial in Sunset Arts II Sim in Second Life
I’ve visited a few virtual cemeteries in SL. Plus a number of memorials. Given the ages of many SL users, it isn’t surprising that some of us die of age-related illnesses and problems, never mind accident and misadventure.
A good friend of mine in SL has died approximately twice each year, on average. People I’d never have had the privilege to know if I’d been restricted to AFK activities.
A couple years ago, I proposed an idea to my living relatives of setting up a virtual cemetery for our deceased ancestors. I would tell by their reaction that they felt it was a completely morbid and disrespectful idea so I didn’t pursue it. But I would not be surprised if one day this becomes more acceptable.
I also am a member of the findagrave.com site, and try to participate in that as much as I can. It has been very useful.
Regardless of the statistics, the reality is that technology is evolving and systems like this will be used more and more. Second Life will, undoubtedly, grow in the near future. Let it be 5 years or 10 years, it will be as common as video game consoles and the WWW. It is just a matter of time. I can’t prove this, but my background as a software developer and my education allows me to make these assertions.
On 04.21.09 JG said:
I’m also a Mac user, and was very disappointed that AR doesn’t want to make a BM client that will run on the mac OS. I am a RL graphic designer and also an SL content creator. When I was in college (grad in 2000), I was trained in both 2D and 3D, the entire art department was all run on a Mac and were all Mac programs run on the Mac OS (no boot camp, no popping over to the PC), even for the 3D creation and animation. Our university had a whole building of computer labs, with one large special lab full of Macs for the art majors, so it’s not like the university was all Mac either. I also know that this hasn’t changed either since I’ve graduated. Although 2D and 3D are different, there are definite similarities and it’s not that big of a jump for a talented 2D artist to make fantastic 3D content. I wouldn’t have stayed in SL for very long if I wasn’t able to create. I am a creative and it is my passion to do so, I really have no desire to get in a 3D environment to just hang out. I’m not sure if I’m the typical virtual world user, but to discount a whole group of people like me I think is a mistake. I’m sure I will still be checking out BM, once I figure out how to use boot camp that came on this computer. But whether I stay or not will depend on what it’s going to cost me and if I will make any real income there– and if there are too many barriers, I’ll just stick with SL where I am doing just fine.
Nice post. I tend to agree. In browser 3d content will take a place aside fully-immersive 3d content platforms, like, dare I dream, a cryengine3-driven type of Second Life that enjoys wide adoption and rich community and economy.
this model will load into the o3d sample viewer at googles lab..
this is good news… a overloard of distribution that tech geeks fear… and a simple browser plugin that from the get go works on ALL current platforms and makes mac creatives feel INVITED to the web3d party…..finally…
try the jungle isalnd scene, its looking mighty CRY..lol
shaders.. needs a decent card..but its the same basic tech that i beleive liveley used…. but stripped of all pretention to be a “service” ad driven “community” of avatars..lol
they just need to keep developeing the core engine/plugin and the import tools….bring all of max/maya animations to it. plus library up and make a free set of java behaviors ala LSL….
the firefox deal with knonos evaded MS.. this will just ignore them… ive already run all the demos in ie7 and 8 and firefox…
this is imo is not fcked up , the best chance at a rich 3d media for realtime web that ive seen in 15 years….
if goog then packages the tools and sells them ala sketchup pro.. and then releases the mu server from lively… or sells access to them as sunscription or rentals as isp…. then we got a real model for commerce…
also we need to get a better encyption that tgz… that like native vrml files will never fly to create a monified 3d web of places, not pages….
c3
maybe smiling..
just no google paid for cartoons…lol
partner google.. dont own creativity, or like AOL and yahoo, youll die…slowly.
On 04.21.09 cube3 said:
i hear/feel your pain JG… only if they all listened to folks like me before.lol dozens told the tech 3d geeks all this since 1995s first showing of vrml by SGI in NY to NY creatives… oh well.
BUT… google, them techoverlords somehow DID finally open their listening port..lol…
O3D… right now plays on all platforms i can see, and can import collada from even mac based 3d apps…
i believe alot of exit plans just got shuttered today…. the death of lively might be the birth of real web3d internetz…:)
It is a shame that Google does not reach out and talk to and collaborate with companies that are already in this space, who already have defined offerings that are far ahead of what they are currently proposing. There are a number of companies like mine that have a wealth of experience running rich immersive 3D environments in a Web browser. We have been walking the walk now for over 3 years and yes with JavaScript and rich graphics, physics, audio and video.
People were getting all excited about what the Khronos group was offering with their low level API, yet they forget that 3D on the Web is not just about the 3D, it’s also about the logic that goes behind the virtual world or environment, the physics, interactivity, sound, video, voice chat and text chat, etc. How does that figure into the plan.
Google wants to own the world and the motto of “Do No Evil” has an increasingly hollow ring to it. Their attempts with Lively were laughable, they showed their inexperience and ineptitude in this space yet they think they know what’s needed for 3D on the Web!
Sure Raph is touting this as a good thing, he has too. He made his bed with Flash and the 2.5D limitations that go with it. I’m sure he would love to have access to full 3D and no downloads, it would get him out of a tight spot.
I should mention Pelican Crossing more. I think you’re right about Google – I wonder what their process is for stuff like this – rip through other code to see what works, or act like mad scientists in a lab with no windows.
The advantage to what Google is doing I’ll leave to people like Cube, I guess – I can’t interpret whether the plug-in itself will do what it says it will. But the big advantage seems to come from the fact that they might eventually be able to migrate it directly into the browser and avoid plug-ins entirely – ANYthing to get past those pesky IT folks and weird security settings that prevent folks from downloading the simple little (or large) apps they need to make stuff run.
Raph took the approach he did so that he could be decoupled from the client, can build an architecture that supports the buffet of client types that will emerge in the years to come (mobile, surface, holographic, whatever), and in the short term meet his goal of NO download.
Unfortunately, while Pellican Crossing is a great app – and I’ve visited the showcase worlds btw…there’s still the download, and I found the process for finding it and installing it sort of baffling, but maybe that’s just me. For whatever reason, I guess I put it in the camp of Unity and Quest – ‘browser-based’, but needing a plug-in, which isn’t meant to belittle it, I’m just explaining where my thinking was with the Google announcement.
@Cube3 – I agree with you – it seems to me that whenever Google gets out of the app business and into stuff that involves communities or whatever they come up empty handed. This seems to stick to what they’re good at, which is tech, and perhaps the tech is partly derived from Lively, I have no idea.
But I also agree with Clive on something: I can’t help getting this odd tingling of warning that Google seems to be, well, pretty much everywhere.
On 04.21.09 cube3 said:
im no fan of the googleplex terra 1….
i think ive made that clear before, here and elswhere.
ive known of clive and pelican since the atmosphere days.. i have reached out a few times since, but frankley it all has to work BOTH ways clive….;)
resources are always tight. BUT….
I was close to how flash and 3d via kinetix found dominance… and so far NO web3d/vr worlds platform has come close with that understanding of the relationship between the “showmakers” and the “techmakers”.
they say they do. buts its always too late…and another bubble bursts and more 3d engines just get lost to be reinvented as “whaterver” teh trend is at the next set of orielly hot tub shows are:)
Ive been through 100 3d apps in a decade, so forgive me if ive seen it all, and dont have much pity for the small or the large players who cant seem to ever see beyond their own “expertise” and realize that were not all here just to annoint them “game gods ” or help them reach a solo 4 billion dollar valuation with their bankers or exit plan to google.
and you really dont want me to tell you the truth about “open standards” and web3d orgs..lol do you.?
google is a double edge hoot, it creates fear in content owner makers and code makers as well..
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On 04.22.09 Clive Jackson said:
@Dusan That’s OK, I know you are more into Second Life than 3D on the Web. The problem of finding the plugin should not really be a problem. If you hit a Web page that has 3D content and you don’t have the plugin installed, it will start the download/install for you, assuming you give it permission. Unity works the same way and as far as I remember so does Vivaty and Quest. It works exactly the same way that Flash does. And to be pedantic here, Flash has a plugin as well, it’s just that it has become so ubiquitous that it is delivered with the browser. Every now and again you still have to download the update, all be it a small one. In the next version of Blink 3D the install process will be even smoother and faster taking only around 90 seconds.
I think the thing that worries me most here is that Google is a threat to my livelihood and a host of other companies. Yes there will be new opportunities but I have invested a lot of time and money in the current one. Also with Open Source projects, if you really, really, don’t like the direction they are taking you can fork the code and go your own way with it. With O3D the code has to be delivered with the browser to get the benefit of no plugin download. Only Google will have the clout to make that happen with all the browser vendors. So even if I took O3D and made what I thought were improvements, I would not be able to get it distributed if Google did not like the improvements I had made.
Now I suspect Google will say that this will be an open standard and that they will hand it off at some point to an independent body, maybe, maybe not. But I think it is very scary when a player like Google tries to dominate a space like this. You know that Adobe and Microsoft will be more than a little concerned. Check out the license agreement for O3D, while reading it I was bracing myself for the follow on full body cavity search!
@cube3 I’m sorry I can’t quite remember what you and I spoke about, but I suspect it was something to do with VRML/X3D, which is I’m afraid something I’m still not interested in.
@Andrew With Oracles purchase of Sun, Project Wonderland may get a rough ride. Having looked at O3D from Google, they have a very long way to go, doing things like inlining shaders into the JavaScript of the hosting HTML page is not the way to go at all, it is a totally unscaleable approach. It is also hideously complex, I code for a living and it made my toes curl. The fact that their tiny island world is a whopping great big 17MB should be sending off alarm bells everywhere. In Blink 3D you can have a a virtual world with 4 city blocks for less than 8MB.
So speaking of Blink 3D, perhaps you should at that to your list, preferably at the top
On 04.22.09 ArianeB said:
I’ve been following this for a while. There is already an ISO standard for this called x3d (formerly VRML). Blink 3D and others use it already. Why go through all the hassle of creating a new system when one already exists?
Browser makers need to add an x3d viewer as a standard, the sooner the better.
Bravo!
Absolutely looks great, and Wednesday is the beginning of a new week, for me at least.
Great site, well polished and I look forward to reading (and seeing) more!
On 04.23.09 Clive Jackson said:
“but “non coders” who want to make products in web3d have heard and felt this all before.”
Could you elaborate? Blink 3D can be used by coders and non-coders, that was one of the main design goals of the product. Or are you referring to other companies/products?
On 04.23.09 jo said:
when your rl partner is on sl, meeting new people – it’s scary, and it is so easy to feel second fiddle. It is a huge test on your relationship and can increase the distance between you, especially as they spend more time talking to others intimately, and less time talking with you, realizing, perhaps that their rl relationship isn’t what they truly want. Is that a good thing?
On 04.23.09 cube3 said:
Blink 3D can do A.
Unity 3D does B
Axel3d did C
VIewpoint did D
Cult E
Shockwave F
etc etc.
Over 100 3d companies and Products over a decade.
And “used by” and “viewed by” are two different things:)
Believe it or not, I thought about this idea three years ago. Back then, I was thinking that a virtual memorial space in Second Life would be a good place to be remembered. You can set up a room or garden to contain that which reminds your family friends of you when you were living. It could be photographs, furnitures, replica of RL belongings, video recordings of special events in someone’s life. I think it was a great idea then. I salute the ones who actually made the service available.
On 04.24.09 oscisfado said:
I’m the only one in this world. Can please someone join me in this life? Or maybe death…
[...] being done right now with 3D desktops (like the sparkly and intriguing Bump Top, for example. Or Photosynth, which I mentioned above, which turns photos into a David Hockney [...]
Maybe RT3D media is like God.
It has many names and it only exists on faith.
Less time naming/writing/conferencing…more time doing/learning/exploring for more than just a few. That would really mean more to a better tommorrow for the medium.:)
Interestingly enough, last night we had about a dozen “web3d.oh;)” virgins show up from all differnt platforms/in many different browsers, and chat about and watch some video clips from a late night TV show. The shows Host/creator joined us for the test. All were tv/ website media savy creators of film/print/media etc. All had never done any “second lives” though some had played video games in youth or on consoles in the last years..etc…
Through the typical “bugs” and “limitations” that dont make it in the press releases or conference canned demos, we managed to “communicate” using realtime 3d media to augment the text chat and video viewing. Plus a few misplaced “dance” gestures got a laugh from those not part of the metablog hype and yet unaware of the looming crackdowns on adult virtual gyrations to come.:)
BTW- this audience was not a target market for the technology/service used. But they all expressed interest in MORE.:)
So tommorrow comes anyway, no matter what a transitory conference speaker calls it:)
So Millions of US, is now back to Hundreds, at the conferences?
But what of the millions to come to the worlds. not to the conferences? So much more there to DO.
@Giulio Prisco: “I think the majority of Second Life users don’t really care too much about creating content.”
I am not someone who can “create content.” But in SL I am in an environment with a very low bar to entry for creators. This results in a very wide selection that helps me be whatever I want to be. If, like Sony Home, creation is limited in Blue Mars to a few, why would I want to be a part of that?
As for Macs, I’m all for Mac clients. And Linux clients. My personal experience with SL on Macs is that I don’t see any difference that can’t be explained by hardware or drivers. I think one of several right moves that Linden Lab did was to make their client Open Source and ported it to Windows, Mac (Universal binaries!), and Linux.
The words we use to describe Virtual Worlds have a tremendous impact on how people perceive their potential value. If we say, “its really not a game,” the person we are speaking to will focus on the word “game” and be suspicious that it’s really nothing more than just that, a game. But if we say Virtual Worlds are “game-changing and transformative technology,” the person starts thinking “how can we use this to be more competitive and win!?”
As you pointed out, the word “immersive” works the same way. This is one word I just don’t use, unless I’m talking about a training scenario where complete focus on the VW environment is desirable.
The phrase most business people seem to respond positively to is “3D Web Collaboration.” They “get” this. People know what the web is and better collaboration, be it internal, with suppliers or customers, is something every business needs/wants. All that’s left is to show them the advantages of “3D” and the features, functions & benefits it provides.
Getting people through this “virtual door” is the key. They can then be guided towards 3D content and applications that engage their own creative imagination. Once this “spark” ignites, people will actively seek out solutions and partners to help them maximize their Metaverse Potential.
“I’m not sure who these people are pitching to, but maybe they need to find the folks in the corporate chain with a little more imagination than someone who convulses and twitches if you use the words ‘game’ or ‘virtual worlds’.”
Loved that quote Good read as usual. Still think it will be a while before the ‘why’ takes of. The paradox of these big brand companies is even though they bring weight to the discussion for the evangelists, they don’t work as well in the the offices of real world clients. These companies are everywhere, have huge R&D budgets and often push innovation themselves (IBM & SUN) so they don’t really make the case for the >F500 companies. That’s our experience at least
“Because the richness of virtual worlds is increasingly an ecosystem of connections and content that bleeds from Web to world”
One of my favorite passages from the above-
It is persistent, it is rich and it engages the adult mind in ways that makes the mind want to do more. Even to justify the tiem we spend in SL, we begin to live up to best practices as human beings.
If thsis can bleed from web to world, aye, so much the better for all of us.
great idea. if the regionally close avatars could switch to other common interest variables anytime this would be more valuable. btw what caching solution second life is currently using?
On 04.30.09 Prokofy Neva said:
I think you’re safe if you call it just blandly “online”. “Online” is one of those words that people accept, and it sounds modern and “focused”. So you can then say “online meeting”. Or “online space”, and then it all goes down more easily.
[...] Where Virtual Worlds are Going: Why is the New What, How is for Tomorrow (Report on 3DTLC) [...]
On 05.02.09 cube3 said:
message from the future…
nope.
On 05.03.09 Prokofy Neva said:
Somebody has to pay for such spaces, it is difficult to offer them for free. And those that have tried getting entire cemetary sims rented out can’t get them rented out. There was a beautiful project by Metabirds, a Japanese cemetary called Memoris that had headstones and mourning suits and such for sale and low-cost plots to rent. I hardly found anyone using it.
And I don’t know why. I guess because it doesn’t feel real, and because if you are going to have a place to memorialize someone, you may want it to be different than just a replica of a RL cemetary with just a headstone. You might want it to have more capacity like a webpage with pictures etc.
[...] Dusan Writer on Papervision — I haven’t really looked all through this expansive one page of Papervision but it looks semi-promising (as a page of links to other valid resources). [...]
On 05.04.09 Jay said:
I second what Jeremy above says and if anyone finds something like it at home on my own computer… please do tell. I think it would make the mother of all To Do list managers.
[...] The show can be attended in-world at the new venue of Metanomics, but also on the website of Metanomics (read more about the new venue on Dusan Writer’s Metaverse). [...]
Versions with running shadow code are easily available from the Lab, but there’s a four-step process to turn it on, and it was only designed to work with Nvidia 8+ chipsets (though I believe it will work with one ATI chipset, if you have the right drivers).
Man, that was awesome. It never dawned on me that there were shadows included on sl but then again I’m just a baby resident. I’d be interested to know if you ever get them running.
On 05.05.09 Ora Pera said:
Hi Dusan, don’t forget to change settings in the debug menu.
Find ‘RenderDeffered’ and make sure it is set to ‘FALSE’.
Find ‘RenderUseFBO’ and set that one to ‘TRUE’.
Go back to ‘RenderDeffered’ and set that to ‘TRUE’ also.
It worked for me.
Same has to be done with Kirstens viewer that incorporated shadows.
[...] May 6, 2009 by piensl Una actualización de SLOODLE se anunció el mes pasado. La nueva versión, Sloodle 4.0 promete renovar el sistema y fortalecerlo aún mas. Ver mas información en Dusans’ Writer Metaverse. [...]
On 05.07.09 cube3 said:
missed the talk. did anyone ask him about the kiddies comming onto the grid this summer/fall?
dates..etc.. all those educators announcing 9th graders and all
On 05.08.09 Tabliopa Underwood said:
Dont know who came up with it first but the name, Grid, works for me. We have the Web (2D) and the Grid (3D). They the same thing really in what theyre for. Is games on the Web but we dont refer to the Web as a game. Same with the Grid. Is games on the Grid, virtual worlds even, but they only one aspect of it really even if at the moment they pretty much all of it. Be lots of other ordinary everyday uses on the Grid soon I think just like there is on the Web.
Also I think the Grid in a Web browser is not really the way to go. Is to much difference in how the Grid and the Web work. Is possible to do of course but what has been done to marry the two has been pretty clunky to use even if is a technical kool in some cases. Probably be best I think to make a Grid Browser from new. The Web and Grid have about as much in common as say a word processor and a video-editing program.
The problem with the SL2.0 roadmap, and it’s not of M’s making, is that it is very very familiar. That is because the company has a somewhat embarrassing history of over-promising and severely under-implementing. If you dug out a Philip Linden interview from the second half of 2008 you would read essentially the same promises but with a time frame that has already passed.
There is an excellent business case for the company leadership to identify something concrete and visible they can get done in the near future and making it a priority.
On 05.09.09 Tabliopa Underwood said:
Mark Kingdon said “Profiles on the web are coming. Our second busiest page on our website is the place where you can find your friends online. I could build an empire around that alone! So, yes, social tools are coming.”
Thats good. Will give new people coming from 2D networks something they can relate to and use immediately while they trying to figure out how the rest of it works.
On 05.09.09 Robustus Hax said:
Someone tell M Linden that SL Voice is horrible in comparison to Skype
I thuroughly enjoyed this session. A fun active crowd, and a general back-and-forth community conversation was just what was needed.
I know for me personally, this was the first time I got to hear M Linden respond to users first hand. Of course he’s talked in the past, but this time was the time I got to be involved…. when that happens with the Lindens and residents, it’s a very powerful thing.
I would suggest and encourage ALL the Linden employees to make an effort to come inworld, host talks, parties, gatherings, sessions.
[...] Lab’s decision to create a continent in Second Life for explicit adult content had me picturing wagon trains loaded up with dance poles and avatar, um, [...]
The rebuild of the Metanomics site is good. It has a more innovative and yet warmer feel then the the sort of 1970s modern chic that made it feel like Merv Griffin’s set. I still think cutting-edge builders should broaden their pallette from burnt sienna to ochre, which seem to be the new black this season, but it’s good enough.
I like the new logo, which I think is like PigPen’s hair and aura, and that’s fine. I’m told by Joel it’s a Rorschach blot, and many people see different things in it.
Best of all, the website has shed that idiotic registration that 57 Miles/Nick Wilson imposed on it which made it so clunky and irritating and which didn’t really create accountability in posting anyway.
So now that I can post there without having to register, i.e. have the ban that existed under the old registration system for no reason other than hysteric thin-skinned geeks ARing me, I will likely continue posting.
I bet this new site is not made with Drupal. I don’t see that what it is, but it doesn’t seem clunky and over-complicated like Drupal.
I note that M didn’t say anything about copyright for the world — oh, he did say something about copyright for himself and his friends: “We have no plans to release the server code.” Good!
I note also that Keystone Brouchard did NOT turn this build for Metanomics into a collective farm/group build/shared object blah blah. It’s just by him. That’s great! It’s not on share or copy. Even better! I’m all for geniuses working in solitude, creating, and putting IP protection on their creations! Good!
However, note that *collaboration* can still take place, as Dusan and others do push pieces of builds into the picture. So it has its group qualities, but without being a collective nightmare.
Actions always speak louder than words on a build like this.
On 05.10.09 Prokofy Neva said:
As I said in the meeting, the conceps of Collapsing Geography (Cory Linden) and Constructing Geography (Philip Linden) are always warring within the Linden soul, and we are at the crosshairs.
I’m glad you’ve exposed the sort of rootless cosmopolitanism which is at the heart of the Cluetrain Manifesto which ushered in the Web 2.0 heist and devaluation of creation on the Internet — place without space devalues private property and intellectual property quite handily, and that was the intention.
Yes, in some ways the world’s geography can said to have begun to be eroded with the first p2p teleports that went in in 2005 (and the concommitant removal of telehubs), but the same could be said about the first private islands in 2004 which created spaces where you couldn’t have contiguousness anymore and could only TP to them.
The Lindens turned out to be more about search than geography in the press conference we attended, it isn’t so much as conceptualizing a red light district as it is symbolically representing the filtration of search.
Given that the mainland is only a fraction of SL, 4000 simulators out of the 32,000 or whatever, and given that many adult-marked islands will also be appearing in addition to Ursula, you can’t really say that there is a red light “district”. But of course the Lindens continue to see the private islands as not public spaces, even though many are.
As I do not have the way with-all to even begin to fully understand the philosophy behind the thinking behind
“These two spaces, lived space and measured space, are quite distinct. Lived space is different everywhere we look…Our space is full of opportunities, obstacles, and dangers, or what the psychologist James Gibson called affordances and the philosopher Martin Heidegger called the ready-to-hand. This lived space is the opposite of the measured space composed of uniform segments like the grid on a map.”
it does strike a chord with me when put in the same context as
“The deepest challenge, I believe, facing Second Life is the ability to find stuff, and under ’stuff’ I’d include both content and people.’”
But what I would say is my belief is we as a species, have an innate, gift for taking technology and tools, and incorporating them into what we in later generations perceive as “normal” I vaguely remember the introduction of the Telephone, and hearing my Dad yell down the phone, to as i guess in his mind help those little electrons travel their perilous journey to whoever he was talking to at the time.
Today who would have thought as we see the facial expressions of folk on their mobiles, in public places grimacing and flailing their hands around, leaving you no doubt that the “connection” is as real as person in same “space”.
So what am I saying? seems to me you were right about conflicts in Linden Labs concerning direction of fundamental ethos in direction grig/space/platform should go, and I for one taking my belief as stated above, that we as a species will inevitably, take on this new world format as the “norm” within our perceived space, and our perceived space, although influenced by this new perceptions afforded by virtual world, will not deviate from what we see as the norm, ergo The red light district is not on some foreign continent, but at hand and where the Taxi’s will not take you, but you see from your hotel room, or tour bus.
The main question facing us is whether those two opposing views i.e. benevolent Governor versus Corporate Guru will somehow communicate and take heed of the creators of “stuff” who after all makes this crazy world go round and come to some middle ground.
Thanks for the post even though I only managed to glean a bit from it “grin”
Julius Sowu Virtually-Linked London
On 05.10.09 Ananda Sandgrain said:
Has anyone really experienced a continent?
I quite agree that Linden Lab is attempting have its cake and eat it too. I can’t remember the last time I experienced the grid except on a sim by sim basis. I’d like geography to be important, but once you get beyond half a dozen to a dozen sims, I don’t think it matters very much where one thing is in relation to anything else on the grid.
I find that to be the case not because the potential isn’t there but because of longstanding technical limitations. One hope I’ve had for a very long time now is that the next generation (2.0) would allow for immersion in larger spaces (or smaller ones, making privacy more affordable). As long as view distance is short, and sim border crossings so treacherous, thinking on the scale of continents doesn’t really matter.
On 05.10.09 cube3 said:
i think content/context values can easliy flourish without “geographic” locality. The real issue is do you own/have sufficint rights the “storage device” or land you create on/in.
freeing “invasion” as a comprimise on the way to the resourse economy aint so bad…it did allow for the USA to form 300 years ago….the question is how to retain a vested interst in the other, and not forster isolationism.
i think freeing “virtual ventures” up from the simple “bad neigbor” effort is fine. But its not fine to toss the baby( civic responseblity) to the other out with the bathwater(gridded systems)
so far its just sad that LL takes the worse of each to make its systems. but thats how they roll, over their customers.:P
and with seemingly now idea how PEOPLE work, and an misguided arrogance to how machines should…
such is the way at all companies run by binary technicians.
maybe all youre really asking for dusan is an “interface” designed for how “humans” want to use virtual worlds… not one created for how a virtual world can be used by its humans…
avatars the key? well he first virtual travel games all had PDAs as record keeping devices, or journals..etc…. utility belts etc etc… metaphors matter less, than designed executions based on real user needs, not whatever code can be added to another release first….
the linden interface went from really bad “3d game creation tool” to overly disjointed “windows app”.. but that visual cleanup did allow it to be taken “beyond” game and into “platform” look and feel….
but look and feel is surface after a point, that point being of course, its usage…. sl inventory is still a disaster after 5 years……
the www made it easy for dumb interfaces to be made every day… and sadly we have bent to the computer, rather than form systems within tech oriented companies that create computer tools that bend for us….ask Googles last Graphic Designer tasked at justifying the 41 blues:)
maybe all avatars need are pockets in their pants for a wallet /palm/pda/iphone. or cool ultiiity belts.
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » M Linden Gets Real: Metanomics Discussion and Second Life (tags: Jon Brouchoud Linden Lab mark kingdon metanomics "Paulette Robinson" "Robert Bloomfield" Young" "social and immersive media") [...]
This is an interesting discussion. The metaverse is really a kind of aether net, then, a dimensionless place where we all are joined at the speed of light.
But wait, as we use it in SL we fashion worlds in our own image – a 3D space with avatars in that space. Aye, that’s the rub: so few of us dare to use our minds for omnipresence. No problem, a synthetic 3D space can work, except we also bring with us our fears, our selfishness, our hate, our real world cultures and laws. We have eaten of the apple and our windows on the metaverse world are seeking technological and policy changes lest we evolve our way of being conscious.
As I was trying to follow some of the alternative maybes from LL or others, especially with the fear that some precious users might happen upon the metaverse manifestations of imagination that they cannot tolerate, I got the following idea. Instead of making the metaverse conform to the narrow mindedness of these users, let us fit their avatars with blinders, so as they roam the worlds they simply cannot “see” in-world content they don’t want. Let them gouge out their virtual eyes, lest they recognize their own intolerance and ignorance… (apologies to fans of King Lear)
But seriously, why hobble a metaverse because of intolerance.
[...] was remarkably brilliant, her’s was the winning entry in Dusan Writer’s User Interface Design contest, she was a vocal advocate for avatar rights, and she is loved by a great many people, most [...]
[...] started out as my comment to a post over on Dusan’s blog. He started with the metaphor and a touch of science of geography and how humans interpret/inhabit [...]
On 05.11.09 cube3 said:
in a few years i think most will believe it wasnt the “visual metaphor” of a green grass island, that gave SL the mass hype boost that got vr worlds noticed by more than 3d graphics folks, but the “attachement of money” to the platform that drove the interest.
No one had problems “visualizing the the web” as a media once it brought the “pay now” button to the page….the same is true in either 2 or 3 dimensions…
“land-locallity” as a visual “grounding” wont maintain, the 3d media web will move beyond it, as long as the PAY ME buttons can thrive.
Like I have been in the past, I am continuing to be supportive to most of what LL is doing! Reading through all M’s thoughts makes me even more comfortable with their actions and strategies
On 05.12.09 Malkavyn Eldritch said:
I wonder if they are going to add accessibility for the visually disabled in the new UI.
Can you adjustments to it? It overlays some photos with the same architectural features, but which aren’t in the same location. Which common in SL since we often use copies of the recurring pieces, and they won’t weather differently like they would in RL.
About Orientation, that just sounds like they are going to move to completely community build and managed orientation. I can’t Imagine LL having the resources to develop a whole lot of different Orientations.
[...] like Tracy Spaight (here), Raph Koster (here), Richard Bartle (here) and Doug Thompson (here) have already written extensively about trust, identity and magic circle regarding player death in [...]
DRM is a nice concept, but in fact it is hard to enforce. It is also not so easy to set your perms correctly as we have noticed on many occasions were we made a mess out of stuff only to see things that we spend massive time and effort go out on the grid to be free. The SL DRM system has not be improved er…since 2 years?
And this is not just a virtual goods issue–it is a digital goods issue including mp3s, dvds etc. I think people in general are too lax and feel if it can somehow be ripped/copy then they have some magical right to do it.
You also need to look at the overhead of complex DRM–generally they all have failed. Why? Because in the end they can all be cracked anyway and they generate huge customer support issues when the legit products don’t work.
The DRM issue is more about community as far as I am concerned. If a community rips stuff, then the content creators will ignore it. We feel that Linden Labs has not taken DRM seriously and does not action DCMA effectively. So, we stopped making stuff. Many other creators have stopped as well.
Why is LL more exposed than Twinity or Metaplace to DRM issues–well, its the economy stupid. Or really the false economy where people think they can make money by either creating interesting stuff or by ripping it. DRM is really about supporting people that make stuff and punishing people that rip it. LL does neither. Ironically many people that make stuff in SL actually pay Linden Lab for the privelege via land fees and fees from money. The rippers are usually free accounts.
My own feeling is that DRM is not such a big issue anyway. Price for inworld goods is too low and dropping toward zero. I think the service side of the inworld economy will see the growth. Linden probably already sees this in their view of the sales data, but they don’t share that freely.
RaR – Agreed…I’ve said this elsewhere, but in an economy without sinks, then content becomes commodity and trends towards zero – I mean, how many pairs of jeans can you have in inventory anyways? (Having said that, there’s still a big market for decent men’s clothes and hair but eventually that too will be filled). As a result, value is created at ever higher “levels” – first, it’s not about the clothes but about the store in which the clothes are found, then in the aggregation of stores (think hairspray maybe), then in the ability to manage brands.
Nike was a shoe company and became a marketing/distribution company and then became a company solely focused on being a brand. Beyond branding is collaboration, maybe, or letting customers create their own.
But I guess my point was that people aren’t always rational actors: you behave in a way where you may decide the rewards are worth it, when logically they might not be. Passion is a driving force, love, or the urge to create: the economy gives you this little boost because in today’s world, who wants to admit that you rez prims solely for the love of it – you can tell your friends and relatives that you SELL your stuff even if you’re making pennies an hour for your efforts.
So, regardless of whether the economy makes sense, um, economically it’s still important. And to protect the economy, the Lab needs to SAY that it’s a strategic priority to protect that economy, which means protecting content through:
- Enforcement
- Better methods of reporting (including, I’ll add, more rights for the ‘accused’, who don’t even get to know who their accuser is)
- Technology.
On the latter, I’m proposing that one of the LAST things we should do is change the perm system, at least in how perms are rezzed. The choice architecture is a “nudge” – and “nudges” are all the rage, these days – they’re a branch of economics which studies behaviour and which says that people don’t always make rational choices, but you can at least nudge them to think about things.
I’d much rather see the ability to verify perms and view nested perms within an object than change how the perms are rezzed. I don’t mind the hassle of having to change the prims when I rez them – what I hate is trying to find that one errant prim with a full perm script in it, or the prim with a no copy texture or whatever. I’d love to see the ability to select an object and view a nested hierarchy of the prims and perms so I can change it before releasing it instead of having to hunt/peck through each prim in a linked set.
Now, what I wonder, and maybe you can help me: if content is shifting towards zero value, as you say, and services is where it’s at – then how is Rezzable more like a services company than a content company? Just curious if you differentiate between services and experiences, or whether those are two sides of the same, um, coin.
On 05.19.09 Eris said:
Surely the most important principle of a DRM isn’t so much to prevent content theft, that’s almost impossible (as every code-kid delights in telling you) but instead to draw a line in the sand – you cross this and you’re out of here. Properly implemented it makes theft immediately visible and then you take whatever action is appropriate. A good DRM is always going to be a better disincentive to theft than a prevention.
Setting your own default perm’s for SL objects you create would be useful but I’d still prefer to see a set of perm’s introduced for the ‘user-after-next’ which I believe would trigger a second wave of creativity in SL. Admittedly, it adds yet another layer of complexity to SL but it could be worth it. There is a proposal languishing in the jira : http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2622
Otherwise, I couldn’t agree with you more, M/C/T made SL creative and compelling and LL tamper with (or ignore) that at their peril.
On 05.19.09 Annyka Bekkers said:
I don’t see why a “nudge” needs to be a pain in the butt to be effective. If the point is to remind us to check our permissions, then why not just show them in inventory instead of blind perms on our own objects? We wouldn’t need a nudge if we could see our perms at a glance.
Thank god they’re finally implementing bulk permissions changing at least. Packaging items for sale in SL is extremely cumbersome. For me, content creation is about 25% creative work, and 75% repetitive drudgework. Anything that can streamline that process and cut down on errors is very welcome to me.
I don’t disagree. My dream, and this came through in the UI contest I sponsored some time ago, was a far better system for making permissions and inventory tags “visible”.
Inventory is a mess – not only should it be more intuitive, but things like sorting on a perm basis, creator basis, etc. would all go a long way to improving the ability to package and sell content.
As someone who has struggled with the same issues, I relate: trying to package up a house, with all of the nested door scripts, textures, prims, notecards and whatever else has been one of those nightmares that had me screaming in frustration.
But I’d prefer that these things were dealt with on the visibility side rather than the creation side. Allowing people to flip their default perms removes a choice architecture which I think WORKS. Yes, it’s a nudge in the direction of friction, but that friction is what makes SL what it is: a conscious choice to switch from one model of content ownership to another, and to not then end up with an “out of sight out of mind” scenario where we’re not forced to remember that we made that choice.
Jacek had an interesting idea, however, which was session-specific perms. I suppose I’d go with that…at least I’d know that at log-in I’d be back to sharing the same content philosophy as everyone else on the Grid, as frustrating as that could be at times.
On 05.19.09 rightasrain said:
gee…sorry I missed this piece and related spew awhile back when all the venom was fresh. Sure seems like a lot to do about vested interests across all parties and very little about journalism. Meanwhile LL collects the monthly fees.
[...] packs” (whatever the hell that is), and the ability to record voice conversations. Go read Dusan’s post for that. I’m tired from all this typing. Perhaps I should have just recorded an mp3. [...]
On 05.20.09 AnomyNo said:
I wrote zillions of chars, but deleted them. The most important would be a custom SL client for RPG-s. Not just the oh-so-dramatic ones, but the RPGs like ye old D&D was and/or is.
The oh-so-dramatic-ones are much less popular because those require people who like to act.
The game types like WoW base on the very nature of man: greed and curiosity.
For a story-driven rpg you need preparations, lotsa npcs and in a computer world…noone has the time for this. Thats why MUSHes werent half as popular as MUDs.
I think the mixture between two are the best, but SL is not the platform for that. And they are losing their audience just now. Without established communities (adult, rp) SL will be nothing more than a startup.
They have to take steps: release an alternate viewer for rpgs (estate-driven rules like no minimap, force windlight settings on clients, check client authenticity) maybe with a builtin turnbased combat system.
They also have to rethink about their server-maintenance, they shouldn’t operate abandoned sims, that would save a lot of $$ (turning them on per user tp request effectively), also cache needs to be reorganized.
AAAAND regions color-coded based upon build quality measured in Kilobytes!!!! Damn those eye-candy sims that pollutes your cache!! Have you realized how much trash you get when visiting a site like Insilico?
These ‘builders’ know nothing about nothing, gaaaaa…
And Dusan, did you know ARC is called shame in the SL source code? People should be reminded of this.
Also… why dont we get proper basic animations??? You know the ‘lag cost’ of a single AO? It’s terrible.
These are the issues…. and not SMS-ing OUT! Why would I want to SMS OUT OF SL when I’m sitting OUT of SL with a mobile next to my hand, with msn/skype/whatever open on my desktop…
Sometimes it feels like managers ran over Second Life. And the initiative folks.. like the ones at Google Labs are just opressed.
On 05.20.09 AnomyNo said:
Gaa, sorry I can’t even type properly. I meant outside of SL.
Anyway: I am a big fan of the idea of pre-loading sims while teleporting there. Maybe you could read the rules while tp-ing or be tp-d into an empty sim where other passer-bys are too waiting for their tp.
And you could config your client to pre-cache favorite sims. Of course, supposing there is an even very basic version control system that notifies your client ‘X sim has been updated to v 1.132′ initiating a pull-like update.
Hi there. My experience with the Xbox Live platform is that people try voice morphing once and then never touch it again – even the kids. So there is no need to be afraid of it, Dusan ^_^
I think it’s interesting you switch from SL Voice to Skype sometimes for better sound quality. Ever since I did a radio interview with Tom Boellstorff and found voice quality much better than on Skype, I thought I’d stick with SL voice for future interviews. Maybe I was just lucky that one time. And Skype for sure is getting better with every update.
On 05.20.09 Prokofy Neva said:
I can’t imagine using the voice fonts. It’s too far-fetched.
I don’t like voice, it’s an immersion killer, and an augmentation hobbler, too many dials to work.
Great news to hear they will have taping of voice inworld, but what would really be great is if that were billed on demand, and that you didn’t have to sign up for a service you wouldn’t use just to have a meeting once a week.
On 05.20.09 Jane2 said:
Cripes, SL voice is an inferior product. This sounds like more of the same.
I’ve counted Dusan Writer as a friend (or at least a friendly acquaintance) ever since I met him in the course of his UI design contest a year ago. He’s an interesting personality, and generally an intelligent fellow and a thoughtful writer…
что? по моему, отличная идея. ну, как хотите, в общем то
On 05.22.09 Prokofy Neva said:
I’m glad you’re taking this stand, Dusan, it’s really important.
C/M/T is the heart of SL, and frankly, the Lindens put it in almost inspite of themselves, and very much against the will of some copyleftist Lindens.
It’s very much under assault now, not only with VWR 8059 but with the assault by Soft Linden as well on the “share bug” which he insists is “expected behaviour” — it’s a casual and even hostile attitude to the problem of the unwanted return and destruction of private property in SL, and that’s worrisome (he’s willing to suddenly declare return of *group owned* property by the same bug as a bug — indication of how suspect his entire claim is).
There is a concerted effort to decouple the binding of copyright to SL creations under the false flag of “builder’s convenience”.
The same gang trying to ram through Creative Commons crap and “liberate” everything under the fake premise that this “helps you get custom sales” are trying to drive out c/m/t and its adherence to objects in SL. It’s got to be called out for what it is.
Jacek Antonelli on his blog makes it seem like these are all exaggerated and FUD-ridden notions, that Dusan is picking up my critique of CC and becoming FUD’d himself, etc. etc. But I think any intelligent person who examines the CC shill closely can come away realizing: this system browbeats me into sharing everything “for the sake of the community” but doesn’t have a viable way for me to protect my copyright REALLY by having a way to get paid for my objects reliably.
SL, unlike the wider Internet at large, does that! And God bless it.
What I bet the Lindens are cooking up now is merely some “call your lawyer” or “file a DMCA” streamlined process, perhaps even automating it in the tools. They may make the automation of CC licensing or DCMA notification even in lieu of c/m/t. They imagine they would be doing people some sort of favour with this, but it’s utterly fake — the real way to protect copyright is not to tamper with c/m/t, not to browbeat people with CC, and not throw up your hands at the fact that integrity of c/m/t isn’t 100 percent. It’s their all-or-nothing argument that is used to undo even such protection that does in fact adhere, and that’s wrong.
Affluent middle-aged white men in Silicon Valley, larded up with gadgets and widgets and digital equipment out the wazoo, with A-list blogs or access to A-list blogs, were the first to start this meme that you “have” to have copyable songs and other digital content because otherwise you can’t copy it on to your many other electronic toys, and therefore DRM was “broken” or “wrong” or “can’t work”. They had more of an influence on manufacturers even than kids downloading on the Internet because they basically had the power of the purse to threaten the consumer electronics field significantly.
We don’t have to be bound by their indulgent whining, however, which was key to destroying the music industry. Not in SL, where you get something that is copyable to any other purpose you need with nothing that needs to be “jailbroken”, but you still can’t *transfer* it — if transfer is turned off — unless, of course, you go through some elaborate deliberate hack. but you aren’t motivated to hack, given that you can copy endlessly; you just can’t resell it. Brilliant.
On 05.22.09 Prokofy Neva said:
DRM is not at all hard to enforce — not in SL, not with CMT. That’s it’s beauty. RightasRain is merely reiterating the tekkie meme that claims this is hard to enforce based on the model of the music industry (which in fact…enforces it, despite what all the annoyed and arrogant tekkies say about it).
The idea of the “nudge” is what it’s all about. And I would submit that the “nudge” that comes in the default isn’t as much of a shove as the 8049 concept is.
The nudge that the default gives us in fact defaults to what most people want: not to have their stuff copyable, unless they decide, on that particular creation, that yes, it can be copyable.
It defaults to the inherent property of everything as already copyrighted and protected — it’s a metaphor that plays out from RL to SL.
It treats each creation as unique, uncopyable — until you decide to make it so.
Meanwhile, the CC and opensource nudge of liberation of perms is a shove, not a nudge. Oh, sure, you can make the *first* choice to change to a new, customized default. But then ever after, your each unique creation defaults as copyable. You can’t really then go back on it due to peer pressure, especially in a group — and then you’d have to change a custom default, not just toggle one box.
It’s a very effective psychological brainwashing, because it holds out to everyone the prospect that if they do NOT vote for this “choice” they are “hampering builders,” even though most builders haven’t asked for it or even want it, but the reality is that what these opensourceniks want to use it for is to liberate perms and force people to go to a liberated perm regime permanently. That is stated clearly in the first sentence of the proposed feature. That’s why Lindens banning me for repeatedly pointing up the political agenda of the opensource activists here is ridiculous, because they themselves front their political goals in your face. When catherine Pfeffer describes the servers of SL as “egotistical” because they default as your own prims, without copy (i.e. the “egotistical server” makes YOU egotistical by default), she means not to nudge, but to agitate you into admitting that you are selfish unless you liberate your creations “for the community”.
This is Bolshevik collectivization, and we need to push back hard against it. It’s no less destructive just because it’s digital and online; everything is online and will become more online, and it will have a devastating impact.
[...] my posts have become way to long, or I’ve become more obscure, but for whatever reason my recent post on the permission system in Second Life didn’t get the response I was anticipating until today, when Jacek posted a [...]
On 05.23.09 Prokofy Neva said:
No, Jacke’s reference is to me. He thinks you’ve been taken in by my critique of Creative Commons and my critique of this IP-shattering feature request which is a stealth bomb for the copyleftist opensource gang to decouple perms and objects. His references are solely to me, he’s just being coy and pretending to avoid drama.
I think you’ve put your finger on it. There are no intellectuals anymore at the lab. Philip isn’t exactly an intellectual in the sort of classic sense like a Susan Sontag, but he did think about a broad swathe of issues and did have a vision. Robin was another one who thought through all the aspects of the world and had some intellectual framework for it. So did Cory, one of the few PhDs in the lab. There are a few others.
But you feel like the age of those greater thinkers who pondered the making of worlds, and summoned people I *don’t* like, like Lessig or Doctorow or Dibbell, to give them tips, but at least they had an idea that there are “schools of thought” and they need to consult “the scholars”.
Now, it’s more like they are just trying to hack and slash through it and get it working. The Golden Age of Heroes gives way to the Iron Age of replication or something.
I don’t think that M Linden sits around the way we do and contemplates the affect of opensource hackery on an integral world where objects contain the CMT “friction” as you call it, as a property to keep their uniqueness. That is, when I IM’d him in urgent alarm about this JIRA with the mass liberation in it, he said, “I’ll look into it,” but it was a sort of pro forma answer. I’m 100 percent sure he doesn’t grasp what bothers me about it, or you, nor does he think about it. If he thinks about it at all, he thinks, but look at the convenience for creations, and that fits an age-old mantra at the lab — the killer app for David Linden — remember him? the VP? — was content, content, content. Other people making the content so you don’t have to. Like Other People’s Money. That stil resonates greatly with the Lindens.
So the problems of property rights are less interesting. I think I nailed it when I really went for the jugular on this, and said on Metanomics, in reply to his answer that no, LL is not going to release the server code.
“So, Mark. IP protection for you. And not for us. Is that’s how it’s going to be?”
And that about sums it up, eh? IP protection for him — he’s not going to be releasing the server code and will still make money from the magic of SL, even if OpenSim reverse engineers (yes, *reverse engineers* SL).
But what about us chickens? Well, for us, there will be…some toy…automization of DMC notices or…a place to stick a Creative Commons license on the viewer (I already see how they have made one in 1.23.2 — it sickens me.)
As I keep saying, the Lindens created c/m/t inspite of themselves, even in defiance of their own copyleftist ideologies, merely because for a time they were entranced with the idea, inspired by Lessig, of sticking it to the man, i.e. having “the little guy” have IP that he cuold protect against a company, against game gods, against corporate software makers, which is what the Lindens are. They were so entranced with the man-bites-dog effect of having game players have IP against game gods, unlike WoW or anything else, that they didn’t think it through. Lessig tired of it immediately. What’s interesting about a zillion dressmakers? As someone snarkily put it on my blog, threat to IP, copybot — meh, who cares, little dress-maker genocide…
And yet, little dressmakers — well, they’re the heart of the world.
When voice came into SL and I could suddenly realte it to the idea I cognitively had of my friends, I was fascinated. Because actually, their voices sounded exactly as i thought it would. At start, it was like a gadget for most of us and many went back to typing as if nothing happened. I think a lot of people like this “hidden-shown possibility”. But the new “generation” who came after voice was possible into SL, are much less inhibited. I am not sure this is the correct word, but I am sure the feeling some expressed about voice features, has to do with “showing” a real part of you into virtuality. Like if the intrusion of voice into virtuality was putting them uncomfortable, like kind of breaking the dream. I have noticed a lot of people voice when they are shopping with friends in my shops. A lot of them ask me if I can voice when they have specific questions about work, or a technical point. And some people are just unatease with typing all they want to express. And what about the conferences we attend into SL, that would be impossible withouth voice. I think it is just fantastic to have the choice. And those functionnalities which are coming, like to be able to receive a phone call inworld, make it even better. It is just part of the flow… And for my part, I trust each of us can make this flow something that fits its own conception of second life.
Linden is dealing with two business models in Second Life — two mutually incompatible business models.
One business model is creating a thriving virtual world with a robust and functioning internal economy and protections for citizens and creators.
The other business model is creating a stand-alone platform which businesses, educational institutions, and other groups can create their own virtual worlds.
What’s good for the Second Life virtual world is not necessarily the same as what’s good for the Second Life enterprise server.
By keeping a leg in each camp, Linden is sabotaging each business model. At some point, it may make sense to split this up into separate companies.
For example, hypergrid connectivity is a must for enterprise users — they need to be able to connect to other enterprise grids out there.
But hypergrid connectivity is dangerous for content developers in Second Life unless the permissions systems made much more robust and secure.
Pseudonyms are fine in a game-playing environment like the Second Life virtual world.
But they’re an obstacle in business and educational settings.
Or take the Linden Dollars – critical to the Second Life economy. But what would a company need these for, on an internal enterprise grid used for training and meetings? Or a college, on its classroom and laboratory grids? If they do sell products from their virtual worlds, they’re more likely to want to take credit cards, or PayPal payments, rather than Lindens.
Meanwhile, the field of potential competitors is growing — both on the platform side, with both proprietary enterprise systems and open source server platforms like OpenSim and realXtend — and on the virtual world site, as the costs of creating a new universe for users to play in is dropping daily.
Sure, Second Life has a large mass of users. But users are fickle. Give them a new platform that’s slightly better or slightly cheaper and off they go. In particular, people follow the content creators — the designers, the game operators, the nightclub owners.
By splitting their focus, Linden risks losing their content makers and their enterprise customers both.
You’ve been duped. But not by Prok. Frankly i find her the most transparent of the whole SL related hanger ons;)-transparency as good;)
And check again. your list of vr worlds “greats” never implemented or proposed user “economy” and “value” commerce in 3d worlds before 2006ish ….none of them.
They followed in years later the “apparent success” of Linden’s final solution to not going bankrupt in 2003 (user gen and IP ownership marketing as draw), They all made games or social 3d virtual worlds that never allowed or sold anything to or from anyone but them as a single company. None of them are elected officials who are tasked to run complex community systems. They make “toys” or evangelize “books” about toys.and most run organizations of under 20 people.
Where is the reality?
SL is the mess it is because LL never made a hard choice to what they sold. a TOY or a Platform for Business. Frankly they look at all of us as “personal entertainment usage” and they ONLY as the Business…. ” and this has been obvious from day one 2001.
Anyhow. You can play as long as you like, I do. I wont pay them to lose money, or suggest any client do the same. If there’s a USE for the Lab, and SL. Use it.
BTW- Microsoft bought and has now killed off caligari truespace ( birthed 1995is), which “was” also another 3d MU tool/platform that allowed for collaborative inworld building- it had been through vrml ages, and evolved into that state in about 2003 or so, the same time SL did by allowing prims in world. It had its issues on needed higher end machines, but without an internal “perms” like system that “nudged” for commmerce. not freebies, Truespce in the end made alot of money for only one group- caligari- and the dreams of its creator, a 3dweb of millions using it as a platform foundation, never happened–again.
[...] Dusan Writer: Paths of Least Resistance, or Why C/M/T Should Remain a Pain [...]
On 05.23.09 cube said:
“As I keep saying, the Lindens created c/m/t inspite of themselves, even in defiance of their own copyleftist ideologies, merely because for a time they were entranced with the idea, inspired by Lessig, of sticking it to the man, i.e. having “the little guy” have IP that he cuold protect against a company, against game gods, against corporate software makers, which is what the Lindens are. They were so entranced with the man-bites-dog effect of having game players have IP against game gods, unlike WoW or anything else, that they didn’t think it through. Lessig tired of it immediately. What’s interesting about a zillion dressmakers? As someone snarkily put it on my blog, threat to IP, copybot — meh, who cares, little dress-maker genocide…”
i don’t believe this is correct. I can remember quite clearly the SFWEB3D meeting where the question being asked by Corey and Robin was “HOW DO WE GET PEOPLE TO USE THIS STUFF?”
The repeated answer, over and over again, then and every time I saw Corey sadly sitting by himself with no takers at a Macworld/or Media show, was “IP OWNERSHIP ans ITEM SALES” – Why would I spend time building YOUR PRODUCT/Services for FREE? Forget Lessig, that SFWEB3D room was filled with Students!!- a class at SFSU.
Good history lesson, thanks for that. It wasn’t how I read the history of it (via Hamlet and elsewhere)….but then historical accounts often leave out the important stuff (or I read them selectively).
I refer to the people I do because of their belief that virtual worlds are complex systems, not because they’re experts in user-generated economies. I use that as my starting point and then move into the second questions, which is within that complex system how does an economy such as SL continue to thrive, or, for that matter: does it.
There is definitely a sense in the air that the Lab is juggling two competing views: one in which content creation is a by-product or service to enterprise, and the second where they hope to see mass adoption through some not-yet-named but-hoped-for killer app – music? Dancing? Whatever it is, they don’t typically say “user generated economy and content” as THE killer app, which is troublesome.
All of which is to say that if the Lab is sliding into SL being an enterprise platform on the one fire-walled hand, and an entertainment/music/dancing platform on the other, then all the more reason to try to pay attention to ANY change that might impact the mechanics of perms while we wait for them to tell us whether they matter, how, and what the road map is to improving them, protecting them, and making them easier to use.
On 05.23.09 c3 said:
yes. i agree. they MUST outline a road map IF they attempt to be a “government”.. like any candidate who am “investing” for -what will they do?
killer apps and 3dweb are 1995 all over again…Linden is looking very CA.-)
almost all these vr worlds are toys…when run by children they try to have it both ways… my toy and ill take it home with me. “transparent” is an illusion they hide in CC and singular (arity) speak:)
we need a media and platforms to build an industry.. not these vanity experiments that even i am forced to do ever few years.
youre asking the right questions…. i only wish they were asked and listened to 3 years ago…3 years ago you didnt see much of these questions blogged, all you saw was “evangelical exuberance” and whore to millionaire rhetoric..
anyhow
here’s another experiment: tonight at 10 pst. web based vr movie screening ,,,its buggy but thats the techworld:)
not sure it;ll work, but not asking for 1000 dollars and 295 a month to try it:)
btw– tribalnet is dead;;no moany made or gotten via bankers..:)…my open sim there gone..
i did reach out to folks like maria and “reactiongrid” as well…started up a test there…
i would love to see Opensims grow to apache type ubiquity…. but people made money on html servers in 1996.:0— and the web 1996 was a “presentation” media for the mass,,,, time will tell, again..
There is a lot of confusion here, and unfortunately on the jira. The confusion is between politics and engineering. A propper working granular permissions system enables people to do their work how they wish.
If folk wish to use it to express copyleft principles, or to make life difficult for pirates (and usually themselves in the process) then that’s up to them. Politics has nothing to do with the engineering UNLESS the system is engineered to restrict the choices you have in how those permissions are applied. The current system does this – it makes decisions on your behalf as I will explain.
If people want to use permissions simply then by all means provide a simple interface for them. That interface likely looks a lot like C/M/T by the way. That is not however the full story as C/M/T can not encompass all the possible behaviors of a permissions system. If you enable debug permissions (an advanced option in the sl client) you will see LOTS of extra info about the permissions of your objects – this extra info shows the decisions about how permissions look different to folk other than yourself or how permissions will change if the object changes hands. These changes to permissions happen automatically.
Put another way, this is the hidden information about decisions the permissions system makes on your behalf. Intentions – which by their nature somewhat political – are encapsulated in these rules. These intentions are the ones that decide on our part and in our absence that we shouldn’t be able to modify the objects we create, for example.
They are the reason that I can’t sell an item in SL to a client without giving them full perms if i may wish to provide any customer support modifying/customizing/fixing the item. The SL permissions system is particularly idiosyncratic in that way and locks up and breaks content more often than not.
A proper granular permissions system is not political in that way. It needn’t be difficult to use either – just as windows networking has simplified model and full control permissions systems, one can provide a simple and complex interface to the same system.
You will find that engineers such as Jjacek, Tateru Nino, Ordinal Malaprop, etc who actually work with these systems daily usually argue for a “propper” permissions system, and do not mix metaphors between permissions and drm. Folk who’s primary thing is IP rather than coding however often mix up permissions, drm and IP politics. The FUD (fear uncertainty and doubt) JJacek mentions in her blog post is exactly this, a domain confusion built out of a simplistic and flawed view of how a tool works and it’s implications for IP.
As for myself, I am very anti piracy. I refuse to use photoshop for work for example, though it inconveniences me greatly, as I don’t own a copy. It is estimated that over 80% of photoshop installs are pirated and nobody else seems to think twice about it. This has not stopped me using the tools of piracy to unlock my own content when it has been borked by the idiosyncrasies of the SL permissions system. No digital content protection system is bulletproof, and I’m quite happy to break them when they lock me out of my own content that I created or paid for.
Now here is the issue. If i make an object in SL, and due to idiosyncracies in the permissions system it locks it so that I am unable to transfer/edit/copy it – this is 100% my own creation here – I have no choice but to use one of the many methods available to break those permissions. In doing so I am circumventing DRM which makes it a criminal act. Off the top of my head I can think of at least 7 ways of committing this criminal act, so clearly DRM is failing to do it’s job of protecting the content. The only way in which it succeeds is by turning me into a criminal for editing an object I created in the first place.
If the permissions system was more granular I’d be able to set things up so I didn’t have nasty surprises like this. So the simplified permissions system we have is already political as it makes decisions behind our back about what is right and wrong, and by making it more granular we would be making it _less_ political.
There are no mysteries about what makes a granular permissions system – they have been around since the 1960s. It’s not rocket science – there’s one in the computer you’re using right now. Jjacek, myself and others have been arguing for a long time that the permissions system needs an overhaul to reveal the hidden data that I spoke of earlier and remove the ways in which it makes decisions on our own behalf. This is so that the technicolor rainbow of approaches to content management can be encompassed rather than the stupid mix of copyleft meets IP paranoia that we have now. I leave you with a final example.
Right now I’m making an orientation path, with some 40 or so signs that i spit out of keynote whenever revisions go through, and upload in bulk, and each time I do…… I have to manually go through every single texture uploaded and set permissions to allow the textures to be reused…. why? Because SL assumes that I don’t want anyone else to be able to edit these items ever and that selfishly I wish to ensure that those textures are useless to anyone else. Now I may think that’s braindead having spent countless hours working on teams setting these stupid permissions every time or chasing folk who’ve set them badly, or using tools to re-rip the textures cause someone has screwed up their perms and we need to edit a build or wotnot….. but who am I to criticise? Surely in _some_ universe this is the most sensible way to deal with permissions on textures……. it just sure as hell isn’t in mine, nor is it in the universe of anyone I know. As for scripts, which are more likely to need modification after the fact, it’s even worse.
So in conclusion.. sure the lindens are silly and do strange things and need to strategise and communicate better, but that’s got nought to do with how borked the permissions system is. The perms system just needs to be normal and act normal like a perms system should, rather than as a third party lurking over our shoulder, which we need to placate in order to get anything done.
On 05.23.09 cube3 said:
better interface for permissions needed for group projects. -true
the insistance that “technical” solutions are free from politics and economics – false
the dogmatic belief that the media does not influence the message– just damn stupid.
i read jjacek posting stuff… it was i believe wrong about IP/licenses/TOS and ownership.
dogma strikes again.
On 05.23.09 cube3 said:
“Politics has nothing to do with the engineering UNLESS the system is engineered to restrict the choices you have in how those permissions are applied.”
obviosly you havnet used a “modern” paper ballot to vote in the last 20 years.
youre subcribing to the idea that MORE is always BETTER.?
who are you people? really?.. i mean lets stop this avatar shit… it really is just allowing more stupidity to spread. But more is better, itll just magically transform us into a borg collective.
Thanks for the response, although in some ways I think you made my point FOR me. What you point out is that there are things in the system of perms that go beyond usability: the current system has embedded in it a form of paternalism or, as you say, acts as “a third party lurking over our shoulder”.
Yes, they do, and that’s my point. What is being proposed is a change in this paternalism. I am not SAYING the perms system is usable. I am not SAYING it’s not incredibly frustrating. I am not even necessarily saying that this paternalism is the desired state of the world.
Look. I build. I make my own textures. I sculpt. I work with others, and with groups, and I forget to wear my tag, or share with group, or set my perms right and it drives me out of my mind. I UNDERSTAND how borked it is. I’ve listed in this blog and elsewhere things I’d like to see changed, but only within the context of a broader statement of purpose, a road map, and an articulation of strategy and philosophy.
A change in the philosophy….from paternalism (sloppily executed) to choice, say, is still a change in philosophy, and I’m proposing that we need to be clear that it IS a change and not be confused with the idea that the result of usability and choice is simply improved usability – even subtle changes can have wider impacts, as Boellstorff and all the economists would agree – a butterfly in Brazil kind of thing.
I suppose the argument I’m hearing is “screw the Lab, we’re going to make the platform better with or without them”, which is what OpenSim is trying to do…and maybe in the end that’s what the world needs – one that’s truly built by the imagination of its users (just wait, oh wait, until they open source the server code, what fun THAT will be)….but I’m of the opinion that those leading the charge should include those who will look beyond interface design into policy, sociality, culture, economics, and law, with code and design being supporting infrastructure for a reasoned view of these factors.
For now it’s the Lab who’s in the lead, whether we like it or not. On OpenSim it’s the coders. Maybe tomorrow it will be the dress makers. Who knows.
On 05.23.09 Feldspar Epstein said:
*”Technical” people are rarely political beasts. Conversely, they are not the people who decide what the software they create should do – that is between the customer and the suits of the business.
*This is a single, small choice being made available to the small percentage of people who build, and who want to use the new feature. It does not change, extend, or otherwise alter the permissions system, it just makes it easier to use.
Feldspar – I highly doubt the world will end with this change. But it seems to me that there’s no better time, on the cusp of a major UI overhaul, with the addition of all these voice features, with a “Web 2.0″ thing on the way – to revisit our core values, for whatever excuse, whether a JIRA and a “minor change” or because of stuff that’s more profound.
How the Lab responds to the JIRA says a lot to me about whether perms are a micro issue or whether the coders check in with the “suits” by way of verifying whether the governing philosophy allows changes to the usability with due consideration for a broader, clearly articulated approach to something so central to the Grid.
Will it change DRM, or perms, or is it ONLY usability for a minority of users? Again, I’d propose that the anthropologists, economists, sociologists and “world builders” would say that there’s a strong possibility otherwise, or at the very least would say “let’s map this out in a thoughtful, measured way.”
I’m not goingbto fight anyone on the idea that code can inform use and or politics. I’m a firm believer that it is so. However I am also a long term SL user who has seen every miniscule overhaul of usability in the client crippled under the weight of argument about what it means. There is a place for political and philosophical challenge in the interpretation of code, but sooner or later it needs to be written or we get nowhere.
There is no danger to ‘paternalism’ from implementing minor usability tweaks. If we can’t accept even this without being buried under the weight of analysis we can’t hope to agree on the nature of the long overdue major perms overhaul.
[...] Second Life to Add Voice Morphing Controls, Voice Mail and Avatar Phone Numbers That voice morphing function is going to cause more problems than it solves. [...]
[...] debate. I subsequently discovered that she was also celebrated for her coding skills, producing an award-winning alternative SL viewer, and she seems to have been well thought of by those who had regular contact with her on the [...]
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » iAlja Writer Moodles Around [...]
On 05.26.09 Monk Zymurgy said:
All the stuff I make is set as Copy/NoMod/NoTrans. This is not copyleftist, but just the way i do it. I like my customers to have the option to rez out more than one, and not worry about auto-return of no-copy stuff. Its a right royal pain in the arse, because this is not the default option.
On 05.27.09 Monk Zymurgy said:
It is not like Linden Lab is removing the permissions system…is it? So why does an extra option, become so political? I think this speaks volumes about the politics of the detractors, rather than the politics of the people who suggested the feature. Do the detractors believe we will all be avatars in the future, and that we need ‘avatar rights’ as we do in the real world? I suppose, if we loose the ability to be normal, walking, breathing humanoids, and are forced to dwell in VR (a la the matrix), then this is hideously political, but until that horrid day comes..these are merely settings and options in a piece of software. SL has still not got a ‘Save As’ option for saving ones own creations..Jeeze, silly software. Thank you OpenSimulator, where I can backup my creations to an oar file.
On 05.27.09 Monk Zymurgy said:
Actually, the missing ‘Save As’ option in SL, does seperate SL form virtually every other piece of creative software. So maybe I did miss the point…SL is not ordinary software. Or at least in the old-fashioned sense, where a person creates, saves out, and does what they choose with the files created.
[...] Opensim “emerging markets” and income they may generate. There’s even a case, as Dusan Writer points out, for the Xstreet acquisition to re-open the doors to LL’s [...]
On 05.28.09 Thoria said:
I sort of agree with Philip’s assessment there, as it fits with a theory of mine as to why taking on the phone while driving is so much more distracting than talking to a passenger: our brains are hard-wired to talk to visual images of people. If there is not a person physically (or “avatarly”?) present, then a portion of our brains’ processing will be used to generate the image of one, at the cost of reaction time.
Thoria – I entirely agree that spatialized voice and avatar presence is one of THE major reasons SL has an advantage over all other forms of rich communication between people.
Phone is fine – but usually for very small groups, or one-on-one. Web conferences are fine, but usually for broadcasting, not collaboration or multi-person discussion.
Where SL shines is when you have a need for a platform where the participants need to truly listen and engage, where you are not merely ‘broadcasting’, or where you want the participants to connect with each other in deeper ways (teams, etc.)
However – Philip has a way of, well…saying things that I just find kinda visiony goofy.
First off, I see the fun in keeping track of what you are calling “Philipisms” since it does give some insights in his “visiony” process.
Thoria brought up what I, too was thinking – the fact that a cell phone conversation distracts from the here-and-now of driving means it is taking us somewhere else – where is that?
Philip’s asking ‘why do we look at the phone’ really begs the question, what do we need to see to better enhance our ability to communicate and collaborate?
I was looking at a list of elements of nonverbal communication and was categorizing what I think only work face-to-face, what work in VW, on webcast, on phone, and by email. Then I also was trying to factor in the statement I heard recently by a VW vendor that said there are somethings that VW can do much better than a RL meeting. I then was remembering the observation I had at a VW conference that it seemed while people I met seemed intelligent, there was a disproportionate number of them that had poor skills at face-to-face or other RL social interaction – leading to a theory that these people are drawn to SL because they can communicate *better* there.
Thus, while pondering Philipism #7, I found myself imagining a VW that was so good at communication, that when interacting with my teams at work, for example, it could be preferable and more productive to meet with them in a next-generation virtual world than face-to-face. This would come by accentuating all the elements of communication, intelligent computer assistants, information access, visualization; while eliminating all the negative/non-productive aspects of having to communicate in person.
Of course, I still can’t answer why our species insists on doing this communication with machines and not with telepathy
On 05.29.09 Prokofy Neva said:
I never heard that story about the eye contact issue before, that’s priceless.
It reminds me of the time I got to meet Boris Yeltsin, whose books I translated — but this was before I did the translations and before he became president, when he was speaker of parliament in what was then the Russian White House. It turns out that Yeltsin is one of those charismatic types with animal magnetism, if you will. But his means of achieving this is simple: he simply stares down each and every person in a meeting until they look away. You know those kind of contests you might have had with your little brother when you were little, staring and staring and daring the other person to look away first.
When Boris Nikolayevich’s eyes fell on mine, I held my ground. I had noticed others darting away. I figured there was no reason why I couldn’t win this one, even as a lowly translator. I stared and stared, and didn’t swerve from the future president of Russia. Finally, *he* looked away, and locked eyes with former political prisoner Yuri Orlov. He lost that one, too. It was actually an interesting and cordial meeting.
I know what Philip is talking about, I have to have these awful phone conference calls all the time, and I always picture my colleagues all huddled together in another city around the speaker phone in a drab conference room. Some of them I’ve never met, so I sort of sketch in how they might look from the sound of their voice. But really, that’s only part of the time. Because most of the time, I’m higher up in my head thinking about their ideas, and noting the colour of their voice, and storing any necessary facts away about who they are, what they’re saying. I’m looking up there at this kind of stream, or colouds, if you will, with a kind of burning colour, the colour of synesthesia which is hard to describe because it is back-lit in ways that outworld colours aren’t.
Now, here’s the problem with Second Life and voice. Those avatars are just these things sort of dangling in the way of seeing the stream which renders then notes and colours of those people’s voices and their ideas, which are clouds, also colour coded. So to have those damn avatars there, it’s just damn confusing.
Yes, you can zoom around and see/hear where the voice is coming from, but it’s such a disconnect that I find it an annoyance.
For example, going to the Lindens’ voiced press conference (won’t be doing any more of that now!), I would hear, say Jack Linden, who has a distinctive British voice which people in England might even be able to place as a product of a certain school or regional dialect. So there’s Jack yacking away, and his visuals around his voice are what they always are (they even had him on the answering machine at the Lab for a time). But then, there’s that *other* Jack which is his avatar, and his typing, which is a *whole other set of data*. That Jack is even different — different than that voiced Jack. In fact, if you get a Linden like, say, Blue, who has a dragon or something well, you’re just really dealing with a huge disconnect.
I don’t like voice.
Philip is right about the eye contact thing. It enables you to get up into your right brain more easily, it’s a short climb that wouldn’t be as easy in a RL setting with like, the Xerox machine humming and coffee mugs clattering and such, too. But, the voice add-on — well, I keep waiting to “break it in” and “get used to it” and I never do.
[...] showing tiny humans trapped inside phone added as a lacy kerchief wave to Dusan’s post titled Philipisms #7 – Get Those Tiny Humans Out of Your Head) Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Open Source Unified CommunicationsWorking [...]
I have to think that using VW for communication/collaboration, I would still want to meet face-to-face early on in the process, so all the myriad exchanges across the human spectra can at least be booted. (Even if it involves staring contests). I find teleconferences easier when I know the office or conference room they are using and what they look like in it. If I know what the other people and their setting look like, that is what is formed in my mind. If I don’t, something still gets created, but it is not so tangible.
In some senses, I think using avatars is a little like playing with dolls. Not to say they are childish in a condescending way, because I think whatever we program out of ourselves as we mature that disables our ability to create and inhabit the magic circle with our toys is exactly what we need to be able to find those places that Provoky describes as “higher up in my head”… when I ended my previous comment with the smartass question about why we use machines instead of developing our innate talents for telepathy, or shamanism, or other more natural means to focus our minds from the here-and-now to some other focal point of place/time is really my reaching for the same kind thing to me.
On 05.29.09 lowres said:
But where can I find the boards? I want to makeover my avatar to look like one of those:)
Wow, so many questions and thoughts come to mind. First I think, there’s no way someone can receive the same 1st person hands on real life experience education in SL. Then, my second thought is: how much of my time in SL could I count as college credit. And, where do i sign up to get my diploma.
(i probably shouldn’t start sentences with ‘and’ and end questions with periods.)
Anyhoo, “graduating from college” yeah, some people like paying an institution tons of money in order to get a degree and a notch on the resume…. other people love the experience of college.
…i’m just wondering if you can truly ever graduate from a university if you’ve never spent 4 years with your real life self on their campus
Not sure I will be able to get to this, but in a nutshell, I think methodology that involves studying a company making social software without ever interviewing those impacted by it, who also shaped both the software and the company, strikes me as simply illegitimate. I find the concept of the “corporate ethnography” itself illegitimate; and for *this* enterprise even more so. I think you must bear down on this problem as part of the discussion of what is acceptable as academic study in and about virtual worlds, as you did in the previous debate with Beyers, etc.
Whatever the value of studying only the company, it’s a company decidedly not functioning in a vacuum.
Cory Linden said at one point that *one third* of the employees were made up of former residents, and not just people who had skipped in and out of SL as a sample, residents who were heavily engrossed and invested, many with big businesses and reputations.
The Lab went through a period then when they put in a lot of residents as staff — then dropped a lot of them. Today, it’s likely a much smaller percentage. But the reality is that the world and the resident community are an enormously important factor.
I have some other thoughts on the methodology and themes of his book – which is notably historic rather than a “current” view – but I’ll save those for later.
In the meantime, another quote:
“In my time around Linden Lab I felt it was always a hair’s breadth away from flying apart at the seams, and it still may. This is a vital point to keep in mind as we gauge the prospects for ludic bureaucrocies.”
[...] to Dusan Writer’s Metaverse the FBI is now using Second Life to post pictures of its 10 most wanted, to connect to the [...]
On 06.03.09 Prokofy Neva said:
Yes, I can’t wait to read the book, and I’ll come back after I read it. I don’t think Thomas’ answers today at Metanomics were adequate on my question.
On 06.03.09 cube3 said:
nothing new.
just the virtual showing the reality of a culture/machine that should never be permitted to do anything but turn screws.
we have robot people runnning broken/half thought out machines, and now we gleefully ask to be robots in the system based on those half truths and the fear that we wont be part of the cool kids as defined by 50 years of advertising dogma.
On 06.04.09 Prokofy Neva said:
BTW, the bit about the creatives — Lindens espouse creator-fascism when they don’t espouse technocommunism, they amount to the same thing. Consumers are sort of a necessary but expendable plug-in to their software development.
I can’t help feeling that everything we’re seeing so far from this book was visible in the forums debates in 2004-2005 before the forums were shut down.
[...] 6, 2009 by piensl Dusanwriter nos trae la buena noticia de que Julie Shannon tiene el honor de ser la primera persona graduada de [...]
On 06.09.09 Prokofy Neva said:
It’s interesting to see that this list does not contain “hundreds” which is often what people claim, and it also doesn’t contain “every” university which is what the Lindens claim.
Woodbury Unviversity does not belong in that list. It has no educational activities in SL, but is a griefing project; in this case it’s not even just students griefing, but the professors are in on it too — it’s an elaborate prank.
“Presence” doesn’t mean “programs”, either. Some schools seem merely to have put up a build, held a few meetings, and like the business sims of lore, abandoned them.
On 06.09.09 Doreen Garrigus said:
Wait—the blog post containing that list of universities is dated July 25, 2007. Surely it has changed in almost two years?
That’s a very poor list. All three universities in Liverpool UK have a presence in SL and none of them is listed. Likewise 90% of UK universities have a presenve according to recent surveys funded by Eduserv. Should we try to do this “properly”?
Wow, the University of Texas at Austin is not on the list and we have had a sim with courses since Fall 2006. Maybe we should self promote a little more…Another thing to consider is that instructors like myself choose not to use their university SL land to teach. I have been teaching on a 1/2 sim at the Educators Coop (http://educatorscoop.org) for a few years now because i like to give my students enough room and prims to work. There are to many vocal “educators” that are trying to define what is happening in SL when they obviously are not leaving the educator ghettos and SLED list for information.
Have to apologize, this post was reflexive rather than reflective. Saw the list, found it compelling, needed to read the date.
But it still begs the question – is there a better list since then? Maybe I should get a post to the SL educator list and see what kind of names we can drum up?
This does surface occasionally on the SLED list in the form of a “How many universities and colleges are there in SL?” type question. The Simteach page is the best list I know about but would benefit mightily IMHO from being a database rather than a wiki. I’m inclined to harvest what’s there in terms of institution, type and SLURL(s), together with a date when last visited and a comment field for highlights. Maybe put it in the Commons version of dabbleDb so it can be emebedded in wikis. I had it in mind anyway as the basis for a teleport gateway to UK university sims. Anyone wants to use that data as the basis for something more sophisticated, fine by me.
On 06.10.09 cranky said:
If there was real science behind that book, it did not show itself during the interview on Metanomics. What I heard was a bunch of business gossip about Phillip’s model and how messed up it is because he once knew some hippies and how Stewart Brand is some kind of socialist, hippist, bad seed.
The author never once talked about his methodology or his approach or his hypothosis or his conclusion. He just gossiped and appeared a bit horrified at the loosy goosy Californianess of it all. Oh my stars, where were there gantt charts?!! Faint and swoon.
For crying out loud, there are any number of Silicon Valley (or Seattle or Massachusettes) companies that had messy beginnings. BFD. The proof will be in the pudding. Does the thing make money for the investors? Yes or no? If Mr. Business author is all about the business, that should be something he talks about. Instead we get this gosh oh golly, isn’t their business model odd, kind of fainting spell.
Grow up. The people behind Linden Lab took a particular approach to the business. They have been profitable since day one. Why all the hand wringing?
On 06.10.09 teresa said:
Hellooo ! I’m working with augmented reality and i want to create a plane with a movie but i have a problem. could it be possible to send you the code?
OK, so I did a quick survey. My best guess is that of 160-ish UK universities and similar (but excluding Further Education, our equivalent of community colleges), about 60 own land of varying sizes in SL (and one in an OpenSim grid). That doesn’t mean, of course, that there aren’t individuals active on their own land or using someone else’s; indeed, I know of examples of this too. I’m aware that other estimates are higher — this was just a quick check, made without consulting any lists. It does, however, suggest that both lists cited in the original post are likely to be short of the mark. It makes no comment on the extent or type of use. If you factor in other countries and types of institution “hundreds” is definitely feasible. Of course, I can’t comment on the nature and extent of use. At least 10 of the sims are off-limits to the public.
Sorry, when I said “without consulting any lists”, I meant email lists. I obviously made use of both lists in the original post as well as John Kirriemuir’s excellent series of reports and podcasts, inworld search and Google.
Heh, I should also note that one of the Liverpool universities appears to have either closed or renamed its sim (sims named with obscure initials are a pain when they don’t provide access).
On 06.10.09 Prokofy Neva said:
Yes, and I got a full ration of Twitter-hate when I explained that the reason why this is so is because Twitter was dominated at the start, and still dominated by middle-aged white male tekkies, especially the A-list bloggers with their special FIC-like set-asides of the autofollow function, which the devs gave them to blast their way to the top followers list, making the rest of us have to gain followers manually, and putting the rest of us at a 2000 cap.
I was just writing on Fred Wilson’s blog today that there is as much media concentration and ideological tilting in the soi-disant new media “freeness” as there was in old-fashioned old media.
And people hated on me for saying this because they find some example of some girl on Twitter from some famous mommy-blog and they think this is the cat’s meow. But it isn’t. Because males dominated the tekkie field — but the tekkie culture isn’t really so much about gender as it is about culture.
And that culture is in fact slavishly conformist, with loads of sheep just following leaders in tribes. Do something like search on Twitter for something Fred Wilson or Scoble or AJ Keen have said, and see the droves — the hordes — the mobs! — of people merely dutifully re-tweeting them *without even adding a comment*. It’s really scary. Not even a thought — nothing.
This leader-tribal following meme is hugely popular and viral and comes out of a corporate culture spawned by Silicon Valley in ways that other business culture in American doesn’t always have, i.e. it’s not as cuthroat and deadly in smaller business or family business or in business that depends on traditions and customer service far more than the constantly innovative and cutting-edge and destructive environment of Silicon Valley.
There’s also the very, very real problem of these male asswipes on Twitter of this insolent Internet culture who hate and stalk women, especially if they voice an opinion. I often find, especially if someone has found that I have an opposite-gender avatar, that I get the most vile and hateful DMs and even open tweets even worse than SL, with ugly tech nerds telling me they will come to my house in RL and beat me up, or telling me to “put that big mouth of yours to good use” on their privates. Honestly, you have to have nerves of steel to stay the course in this sort of setting. It’s the sort of thing that got an awful lot of attention with the Kathy Sierra case, but there are a thousand lesser-known stories.
And that means that women on Twitter don’t seek out followers, don’t reciprocate, lock their twitters, don’t talk, and tend to stay out of view.
Take a blog like TechCrunch or AVC or Scobleizer and you will find many days there isn’t a single woman uttering a peep — and many insolent males creating a climate that is intolerable.
That’s not to suggest that we need to make a forced Mr. Roger’s Neighbourhood, vet all speech, and force men into sensitivity training. I think they become more insolent the more fake politically correct crap like that is done. I think it’s more about making it possible for women to fight back — which I, for one, am willing to do : )
I think Twitter, which is really a virtual world when you get down to it, is really a lot more like Second Life than you do. After all, this power curve of 10 percent making the content for the other 90 percent fits Second Life, or the Sims Online, or anything where the few entertain or create for the many, to a T.
I disagree that Second Life is this wonderfully gorgeous mosaic of freely-transitioning genderless or cross-gendered creatures flying around and just living fabulously.
If that were the case, I couldn’t get almost daily hate mail, and vicious, nasty comments constantly, just because of a cross-gendered avatar. This is a definitely a double standard.
But even for those who do live the fabulous life, it is a bubble. It’s the Slintelligentsia.
The culture elsewhere is a lot about following and doing what everybody else does. Say one half line of criticism on the Concierge List or the SLB6 list or the forums, and find a deluge of conformists descend on you like a ton of bricks doing the Lindens’ dirty work for them handily, telling you to shut up, you are off-topic, if you don’t like it you can leave, etc.
In fact, some endeavours in SL, I find, require having to battle your way across very determined battalions of Lindens and worse — Linden fanboyz — to get to your goal. If you don’t fit in the hot-house orchid culture of these techlibs, you are exiled into the abyss.
In fact, what Harvard is finding is the dirty little secret of modern life. There isn’t any gender equality. There is in fact a worse inequality that is all the more awful precisely because it is buried deeper and more hatefully under a very thin veneer of civility.
[...] previously covered the New York Time’s piece on art in Second Life, one in which Lipsky was given significant [...]
On 06.11.09 Second Inventory not working said:
Uh I have Second Inventory and it doesn’t work.
On 06.11.09 Prokofy Neva said:
The Daily Kos was really a bust last year. It’s not just that people who are part of their web community had a hard time figuring out SL, or paying something like $25 US as a cover charge to come in and have this very rocky experience, the whole self-referential self-obsessed looping loopy lefty blogosphere thing just didn’t culturally “transpose” to SL.
I mean, even those of us interested enough to sit it out found that staring at a video of, oh, Hillary or something, along with other dancing avatars, was just not…compelling.
I have to say I rarely bother with Kos because it’s so insular and bloggy and insolent. One of the advotorial’s in today’s blog about the evils of “Republic foreign policy” scores the conservative notion of pragmatic American interests, and smugly snorts that this philosophy is what made the Republicans “get their ass handed to them,” but fails to make the sharp critique needed of the fact that…the Obama administration’s foreign policy isn’t all that…different. I mean, we still get a surge in Afghanistan, we can’t quite figure out what to do with Guantanamo, we still cheer NATO war exercises to piss off Russia. Where’s the big difference that the Kossacks were supposed to bring us? I don’t even *have* the leftist politics of these people, but geez, I can ask the questions they *should* be asking! Instead, they just keep jeering at the right as if it were still a presence, they keep mocking and ridiculing more conservative wings of the Democratic Party, and they keep ranting about non-essentials like the evils of Fox News blah blah making a virtual reality. You would never know that these people had *won the elections*. They can’t seem to drain the vitriol out of their systems from the last 8 years and do the job that blogs are supposed to do, afflicting the comfortable and comforting the afflicted.
Maybe if they had a name that didn’t sound like a traditionally nationalistic and even antisemitic militarized movement in Russia, they might have more followers?
What I *really hate* about these lefty groups coming into SL and everybody crowing about how wonderful it is that the “progressives” now have a “grassroots organizing tool” in SL is just how blind, ignorant, and indifferent these progressives are *to the problems of the community of Second Life itself*.
If they are free to blab on their blogs, they don’t care if someone is permabanned from the forums for talking about LL favouritism or banned from the JIRA for challenging some orthodox opensource coder nerd. Expulsions for “any reason or no reason” and the problems of the mainland and trying to run a society via a private company that refuses to even allow “no” votes are problems that are entirely opaque to them. They perch on top of these problems fabulously, golf-clapped by the Lindens, without understanding just what kind of a world we’re getting here, essentially endorsed *and enabled* by them when we get a dozen major-league newspapers (they still exist) with the predictable headlines about how they had their conference in Second Life.
139 percent of the population of Second Life could care less about them and their parochial issues inside the Beltway, but you will feel as if 142 dancing Kossacks on your sims is some sort of “big event”.
You would NEVER tolerate this in Canada, Dusan.
On 06.11.09 Prokofy Neva said:
Dusan,
Nobody needs you to cut and paste NGO press releases that the Puffington Host already cut and pasted.
What’s happening now is that we’re seeing a non-profits hype which is exactly like the business hype of 2007.
This should get a lot more critical eye than it’s getting. You have to ask, ok, that’s lovely and progressive and fabulous and all that, but what is it that you DO beside providing vibrant photo opportunies to show off avatars on the reservation with the “costumes and colourful objects” dance for the tourists?
Well, Thomas Malaby is a transplanted Harvard man who is now at the University of Wisconsin — so yeah, all that tuti-fruiti Cali stuff is pretty weird, as it is for most of us, and that’s ok, he’s right to single that cultural affectation as essential to understanding the whole Linden gestalt.
I’m waiting to read the book, but I’ve already made known my concerns about methodology.
The idea that “Linden Lab was profitable from the beginning” isn’t at all supported by the facts, easily found in the Lindens’ own interviews in the press. They had to lay off workers and go through a terrible crunch in 2003; they didn’t declare themselves as profitable until along about 2008. And they plough their profits back into the business, which is a method that I, for one, question if you are claiming to “be profitable” — it’s not clear that the hippie investor really get all that much from it, because they are the types who are rich anyway, and this projects isn’t even among their main projects, and they are far more interested in influence and power and the ability to spread their California Ideology than they are in actual cash profit.
More than a hundred thousand hosts all running one particular software package. A lot of Linux-based servers were likewise immune (they didn’t use this particular piece of commercial software).
On 06.11.09 Elrik Merlin said:
On our Treet TV show Designing Worlds we use Skype for audio. It’s a lot more predictable than Voice and although the audio quality is sometimes not as good as one would like, it doesn’t exhibit the erratic behaviour that Voice does and it’s a lot more flexible in the production environment.
Personally, I don’t like putting all my eggs in one basket. If you’re doing a TV show in-world then at least if SL has problems or you crash out, Skype audio is still there; similarly if you’re playing or DJing at an event the music stream will still be there even if you aren’t visible for a couple of minutes.
I am really glad, for example, that streaming audio is left to tried and tested external systems and not to internal Viewer functions beyond a player library.
Dusan you nailed it, late nights and wire plus a little duct tape keeps OpenSim running. My first thought when considering hosting OpenSim was, “we have to do superior support” to make users happy.
As you saw with the Lindens response yesterday & our struggle with a recent “Rocking The Metaverse” event virtual worlds are still working towards the reliability of the 2D web.
I had that same feeling yesterday when I saw your Metanomics team respond with utmost concern & with Linden follow up. I felt that you all cared so much that no matter what things would be worked out soon with such passionate people at the helm.
My wife Robin & I restored a 38 foot wooden schooner when we left the Navy & it was a struggle just to keep her afloat in the early years (one night I had to bail water for 5 hours when we awoke to a flood) but we did it and we ended up with a fine sailing vessel that even million dollar sportfishers would compliment us on.
This taught us a valuable lesson that you have to be persistent and the rewards you seek will come.
We all need to keep in mind the complexity of a virtual world. From servers to client it taxes every aspect of a computer like no other website or flash or silverlight application does. It needs a lot of care to run well and this will be true for some time to come.
So Dusan, Linden Labs, OSGrid & the many other virtual world platform developers and end users need to buckle down and keep in mind we’re still early in this game, still laying foundations, still patching leaks to keep our ships afloat, but that things will improve.
I myself will be back to Metanomics & I expect the Obama administration is not so short sighted as to not return. Virtual Worlds are already changing our lives with positive, forward thinking projects & I myself am proud of having peers like Metanomics & LL on the journey with us.
So though the water may rise and the ship may rock a bit some days we continue on because smooth sailing is coming & is well worth the wait and effort.
See you all in 3D-Kyle G CEO RG
On 06.11.09 Corcosman Voom said:
I’m still pleasantly surprised every time I log on and everything works. Having no idea how things actually function, in the back of my mind there always seems to be the possibility that the entire enterprise will collapse into a heap of smoldering rubble at any moment.
It’s been an awfully long time since we have seen the “We’re fixing stuff and breaking things” screen which was a regular feature when I was new. For all the crabbing that goes on about a bit of lag or temporary asset server problems, I’m still delighted that everything works so well and stability has greatly improved in the last two years. It seems to me that the cancellation of a Metanomics show has become noteworthy because it is now unusual in the day to day SL experience.
Oh, and to clear up a lot of confusion… we have met in person several times. When I first met him in person it was in London when I flew over there. ITV filmed a documentary about us, so all of our first moments are actually captured on film. It was a made for broadband series, and if you google Rhonda Lillie & Paul Hawkins and Second Lifers all in one go you can see that we have indeed met. He’s flown here to California and met my family, and I’ve been to the UK twice to meet and hang out with his. Each trip we spent over 3 weeks each time. So,… yes, we met online in Second Life,… yes we keep in touch via webcams on SKYPE and yes, we have met each other 3 times in the past few years. It’s just that for the first 2 1/2 years we were “only online” but for the past 2 1/2 years we’ve been traveling to see each other as often as we can afford to. The only reason we’re not together yet (married) is because of laws/rules/immigration… and we are working on all of that, fixing everything so we can finally be together. But, it’s working out fine and we’re happy.
In my opinion (since I went through that) there’s something missing in real life that draws us to Second Life… whether it’s a partner who we can converse with openly, to needing more attention, to whatever may be missing. People seek out what they are missing in many ways, it’s just that instead of going out to bars with friends, or such they decided it’s easier to stay home and go to a virtual bar. I don’t blame Second Life for creating an environment like this, because it’s not the environment that causes failed relationships, the relationships are failing because there’s something missing and the people in these relationships will do what they must do to find happiness… and in the end, is there anything wrong with moving on when you’re no longer happy?
@Tateru – yes, I should have put more emphasis on that. I fear that a lot of people read the headline “OpenSim hacked” and not realized that it wasn’t the specific target, but a bystander in a wider take-down.
@Elrik – I agree. We work with Treet as well, and have been through many of the same audio checks/decisions with them. We’ve tested across platforms, in world voice, Skype, etc. We actually have three configurations, one of which includes a guest calling in from a land line (phone! wow!) and the voice being streamed through their avatar. Kind of a smoke and mirrors thing a little but we use it in a pinch when the guest can’t get in world (rarely used, but still).
@Kyle & Corc – wow, you know, your kind words and thoughtful response really brightened my day. Thank you so much for that.
Mitch Kapor can say we’re past the frontier days, but every now and then we’re reminded that we’re still riding a brand new wave, and sometimes the tidal pull is a bit stronger than we expected – but what a ride it is.
( I do know during the exact time of the show yesterday my PC wanted to download and install 13 updates… i dunno if all the PCs in the world suddenly were being pressed to deal with the computer updates.)
“I hardly think we’ll get Obama or Steve Jobs on the show after this one.”
Well, it is still early stage after all. We are experimenting. We are trying to push the boundaries of communication and connection and make geography collapse.
I cannot believe Obama or Jobs would not find this interesting and worth at least a try.
I am unsure why you put the opensim and metanomics topics in the same blog, Dusan. Ok, they are co-located in time and they both involve examples of virtual worlds breaking, but the differences make the juxtaposition confusing.
It looks like hacking story involved OpenSim only as collateral damage – the server hosts were really at the center of this topic.
And yesterday’s metanomics fail… after missing one after the other this was my first to attend live (albeit on the webcast) and I had plenty other work to occupy me as I watched the lighthearted chatbridge traffic scrolling from top to bottom. I have to admit I was reminded of why I avoid video teleconferences… it seems at least 20 or 30 minutes are required to dink around and get things working while the meeting is stalled… (granted, i am referring to the prehistoric system where i work) …and I have to wonder if it is really worth it.
Of course, it makes sense to ‘walk the walk’ with metanomics and explore the technology while talking about the technology. That said, I am glad I didn’t follow up on my initial thought to call in colleagues when I was starting to watch the metanomics presenation. That would not have been a good first impression for doing meetings in VW
It sounded to me that Mr. Werbach took the glitches in stride. Most tech savvy people learn one of the most important skills is to tolerate frustration or else move into another line of work.
On 06.11.09 Prokofy Neva said:
I’m sorry this had to happen with such a high-profile visitor — ouch, you guys don’t deserve that at all. I hope you will get someone from the administration soon.
Yes, Skype and TalkShoe or some other service like that are good backups.
Re: OpenSim, we would never know this had happened to this overhyped HypeGrid if you hadn’t reported it. Thanks! And all the scrambling to justify it from Tateru doesn’t cut it — it’s an awful collapse, of the kind that SL hasn’t seen since 2004 when the Lindens actually decided to monetarily compensate people in Linden dollars for 2 days of no service.
And…we don’t know that in fact it wasn’t the target. Why assume that?
I had the worst attack of inventory loss I’ve ever had in SL this week. I had my boards and posters and rezzers set up to go put in the installation at the LandExpo when whoops, half my inventory disappeared. This happens all the time, my inventory fluctuates daily from 20,000 to 24,000 items, and I even keep items stashed inworld like a squirrel, but this was now down to 12,000, and losing precisely ever single thing I had accessed in the last 48 hours.
I tried everything to flush it all back, even trying a new trick which involves logging on to aditi and then to agni a few times, which forced in some of it, but a lot of my house rezzers are still gone, which amounts to hundreds of US dollars.
Having to hastily make a kind of scrappy display at LandExpo after that, I felt pretty hosed. Walking around the Expo like a fly crawling in molasses, with the sims being reset by Lindens and people bitching in the group, I gave up.
And I, too, realized that I never try to “work in SL” or “on a schedule”. I’ve made my small business there completely adaptable with all kinds of redundancies, workarounds, tactics, feints, etc. to try to deal with the never ending chain of bad mojo — builds lost from sims inexplicably, rental boxes resetting their times on sim restarts, scripts being turned into mush by some new patch, etc. etc. I keep four different kinds of rental boxes going, I have land spread all over on 60 sims so if one is done, I can send a customer to another, etc. etc.
And all of this is sort of “dysfunctional” because when I have to try to do something like “I would in real life,” i.e. make a plan, make a chart, perform it on schedule, it turns into hash.
I really have a new respect for people like you or Fleep Tuque or others who try to “work like we do in real life” with what we call “plans” and “schedules”.
interesting.
it combines so many issues… i had to follow it back to its youtube birth.
1. things like this will force youtube to a rated/sectioned service, it will assist lawmkers in realizing that all “time”-age appropriate commercial usage of media has been broken due to the 24/7 internet for a number of years…
2. it suffers from the “uncanny valley” of hyperrealism that destroys most emotional attachment to the image. read the youtube twittter like luvs or dis’s of it. beavis and buthead as live beings, not 2d avatars…compare it to the 3 stooges “pain” movies of the past…
is it the same? or is it now different because of its context and intent?
faces of death- the pepsi commercial ?
any one in this peanut gallery familiar with the movie “battle royalle” made in japan a few years ago?
[...] Dusan Writer believes this is a step in the upcoming merger with the teen-grid, I believe that it’s a broader move that aligns Second Life with many other online policies. [...]
On 06.12.09 Prokofy Neva said:
As I think about this some more, I’m more and more convinced that Linden Lab’s severe problems could be symptomatic of a major hack, too. They never, ever tell when they are hacked anyway. They make a policy of never, ever admitting that when sims are crashed it is deliberate. So I think this question definitely needs to be asked.
Virtual tourism is a great use case for VWs. There are many great examples in SL including city based ones like Dublin inSL. Mexico was also a very successful project, which has been extended for years beyond its original timeframe.
The Costa Rica Cocos Island sim ( http://dizzybanjo.wordpress.com/2009/03/01/costa-rica-tourist-board-uses-virtual-worlds-to-promote-tourism-cocos-island-second-life/ ) is actually designed to promote environmental awareness of the island, not encourage visitors. It’s still there, in fact it was recently moved on the grid to integrate with the very successful series of Costa Rica residential sims run by Giancarlo Takacs. This was a great move by Costa Rica to integrate an official presence of theirs with an unofficial but highly successful resident run presence.
The Costa Rica sim was amazing – so well done. And yes, that’s a very good move to ‘integrate it’….post cards are great, but when you can actually ‘live it’ (or live next to it), it’s even better.
we were working in the background with Treet.TV throughout the show to try to handle the many issues we encountered. There were far more things going on than just voice problems. We do have a Skype fall-back available for voice, and have used it several times on shows in the last couple of months (maybe no one noticed when we did, which would be a good thing .
The Treet.TV cameras and several key avatars on-set were experiencing repeated disconnects or crashes, to the point where we could not keep a solid enough video feed nor keep the guest inworld to consistently run the show.
There was something quite wrong with the region that several restarts did not resolve, including a problem that would generate an error any time any avatar would try to rez any attachment (and the attachment would fail to load). Collectively, the number of issues, and the distributed nature of the problems, got to be enough that we opted to cancel and attempt to reschedule the show.
At this point, through time inworld and with Concierge, I believe that we have the region back to a reasonable operating profile, and hope that for next week’s show we’re back to smooth operation.
Now that the region has had a thorough smackdown, it’s actually running more smoothly than we’ve ever seen it – including during the period when we were putting the new studio build together. I’m thinking at the moment that there was something wrong with it over the long term that was slowly degrading, and that hopefully now we’ll be back in a good position for next week’s show.
@Prokofy Deliberate interference is always a possibility, however given the number of behavioral issues we have now resolved, I think it’s entirely possible for the problems we saw yesterday to have been fully the result of non-malicious system stability issues. We will be watching closely going forward…
Yeah, I think we mostly saw a buzz and a flitter twitter about the intriguing aspects of the screenshots. People jumped in to discuss.
… the thought of the change to what tateru presented I think it where the hype is stemming from. I think its way to early to know anything.
I must sound incredibly snarky about this whole thing…I commented over on the Metaverse Journal, one of my favorite sites, as well….and maybe came across as a little defensive…
But really….as I comment there:
“I’m still shuddering in horror if this is anything like what the final release will look like. I suppose I am pleading or begging, in a way, to make this picture I now have of “SL 2.0″ go AWAY.
I’ve placed faith that Howard and M will help to solve some of the major riddles of the interface, the first hour, and other things… and if this is as far as they’ve gotten, my faith would frankly sink like a lead balloon.”
Thanks for the mention. The HyperVM hack took down over 100,000 websites — and just over 100 OpenSim regions — so it seems pretty clear that the OpenSim regions were just collateral damage, hosted on the affected servers. Unless it was a really malicious hacker who specifically wanted to destroy a few homesteads, office buildings and an up-and-coming convention center.
And covered it up by taking down all the other stuff as well.
However, most OpenSim regions stayed up. OSGrid alone has over 2,000 regions. ReactionGrid is fully up. All the home-based regions were unaffected, of course, since they don’t use the virtualization software that was hacked. And many regions had full off-line backups, such as Simon Gutteridge’s regions on PioneerX, and will be fully recovered as soon as the servers are back up.
I love the degree of control OpenSim (and similar grid servers) offer their operators. You can host at home, on a cheap shared server, on an expensive, high-end server, or on the Amazon cloud, if you wanted to. A friend of mine is talking about setting up an OpenSim-based conference center using Sim-OnDemand’s Amazon Cloud hosting service. That’s less than $10 for 10 hours of use… get the region all set up, then activate it when you need it, shut it down when you don’t. I’ll be interested in trying it out if the project gets going — and I’m sure there will be several like it pretty soon.
As near as I can tell, the build we got is the latest build. There’s no evidence to suggest that there was a newer one (actually there was one about 20 hours after we got the first one, but it did not differ in any substantive detail). What we do know is that the builds we obtained are “hot off the presses” from the internal development code — but perhaps not what someone actually is building on their desktop with code that hasn’t been checked in.
Tateru – Commented on Massively but 1) the Lab is sending mixed signals, perhaps scrambling, or perhaps purposefully sending out trial balloons and 2) ugh. Seriously, if this is anything like where they’re truly at after all this time, then I’ve been misplacing my faith that they can solve the devilish issues of the viewer, orientation, search and balancing the needs of residents with new users and enterprise.
“The boss of Indian software firm LxLabs was found dead in a suspected suicide on Monday.
Reports of the death of K T Ligesh, 32, come in the wake of the exploitation of a critical vulnerability in HyperVM, a virtualization application made by LXLabs, to wipe out data on 100,000 sites hosted by the UK web hosting firm VAserv.”
Oh, the death was confirmed at the time of writing — whether it is suicide or not, I believe, remains unconfirmed until the coroner’s report becomes public. That was the only part of the statement I was really in doubt about.
On 06.15.09 kaylee west said:
hi dusan! i just wanted to say that i have been using voice morphing ever since voice came in. like all things with voice there are good days and bad ones, but on the whole my experience with voice and morphing has been good. some of the other new enhancements sound exciting, and for me as a language educator the recording of voice will be a huge bonus.
whatyas doing made a comment about sl’loosing its audience. are there any hard stats to back that up? i have noticed a lot of sims populated by avi-bots that are totally unresponsive, which is quite worrying as some times you don’t run into a single live person for hours.
by the way i am sending this o my daughter’s nintendo dsi – amazing!
kaylee
On 06.15.09 David said:
Hey, worst case scenario, we can just switch to Hippo Viewer, which is very, very similar to the current SL viewer.
Hear that, LL? PLEASE do EXTENSIVE testing and tweaking, with LOTS of your current users, before forcing it on us, er I mean rolling it out.
At least LL responded, I am mostly left twisting in the wind.
On 06.16.09 Luke Poplin said:
This is a great step in the right direction, but virtual world offerings are very hard to pitch.
I work for a defense contractor and been trying to pitch a Second Life offering for the last year. We could cut the price of our software fieldings in half by utilizing SL or something similar. It’s very difficult to pitch and LL doesn’t help too terribly much (Yes, I had them on the phone, even).
LL needs a marketing package to help guys like me help them.
[...] those who are working in the military, the government is increasing its use of online education – according to Dusan Writer’s Web page. It continues to expand and develop its training courses [...]
I’m expecting more of the UI to be redone in the popout designs they’re using for the new elements. Probably much of the work at the moment involves trying to get the UI layer to support anything more sophisticated than what is already there.
It’s kind of frustrating, however, that I know Jim Sink is currently answering additional questions “on the Metanomics website”, but cannot find any information on *where*
Social connections are great, but for a lot of people, having good content creation tools and having interoperability between platforms so they can get that content to as many as possible *IS* extending social connections and sense of self. It’s what they want to do in virtual worlds.
I think it would be a shame if virtual worlds focused too much on just getting people in there vs. letting people create things with the 1’s and 0’s at their disposal once they do get there.
It’s why I like some of the things realXtend and others are doing to improve the means and the number of traditional 3d apps that are well supported for getting content in.
You’re right, communities are putting more demands on social gaming, particularly virtual worlds, but there needs to be more cross-platform content available and valuable to the overall gaming experience.
I envision a game that you can play simultaneously across personal computers or consoles (eventually browser based) in addition to phones and traditional printed media.
Once I can play a game, go somewhere and see advertising for completely virtual world-based products and then get a text message from an in-game character that enhances my gaming experience, I know I’ll be happy
I’m more horrified by the continued ‘avatarzation” of Identity and “responsibility” as the “gamerz” meme increases its “importance” with all “virtuality” media online.
A thought.. a question…
Why wasn’t Hasbro’s plastic engineers or Mattel’s marketing director asked to speak to congress or at corporate paid think tanks about our future society, the individual and the laws for governing in the 1970s?
Thanks for the comments, folks. I really enjoyed appearing on Metanomics. I’m eager to hear what you think of the book, Prok. By the way, do you also hold Tom Boellstorff accountable for not interviewing Lindens and not doing research at Linden Lab for his book about Second Life? That just strikes me as an inconsistency, but maybe I don’t understand your criticism fully.
I’ve said it before, but I’ll say again that this is not a “corporate ethnography.” It belongs squarely in the long tradition of ethnographies of organizations. How is the project of doing ethnographies of organizations illegitimate? It strikes me as one of the few ways we can pull back the veil on institutions that are often deeply invested in remaining cyphers.
I agree about the old and new. I wouldn’t be surprised if a good analysis of the forums in 2004-2005 could have yielded many similar insights. As you note, this is a cultural logic that informed Linden Lab (and, in my opinion, many other companies). From one point of view, if one has recognized it (as you have Prok), it’s not surprising. I think the really dangerous thing about it is in fact how few have recognized it, however.
In any event, and responding to some other comments here, I understand that some viewers/readers, like Cranky above, will not approach the work on its own terms (the silly notion that science requires hypothesis testing rears its ugly and ill-informed head once more). For those that do, hopefully it will contribute to situating virtual world makers within some important histories.
On 06.19.09 JenniverQ said:
Excellent! I’ve been meaning to get my avatar’s teeth cleaned…
Seriously though, I do like that it is an *additional* tool rather than a replacement tool. I’m not sure how I’d feel about visiting a dentist who did the majority of their training in a virtual world.
On 06.19.09 spinster Voom said:
Thomas Malaby said: “By the way, do you also hold Tom Boellstorff accountable for not interviewing Lindens and not doing research at Linden Lab for his book about Second Life?”
I have just finished Boellstorff’s book and am eagerly awaiting yours. It could be said that you two have been looking at two sides of the same coin. What would be REALLY interesting now is if you two were to compare notes. I’d be very interested to see where the mismatches are in the ways these two communities view Second Life (and I think if either of you had chosen to examine “the other side of the coin” to any extent in your research it would be difficult to see any mismatches that were there). What about doing an “In Conversation” event together inworld? I’d come!
I can understand why social scientists p**s off “real” scientists (hehe). Coming from an arts background, but with a keen interest in hard science topics (A-Life, complex adaptive systems) I cannot take ethnographic methods seriously as _scientific_ research. However, there are other types of research which are equally valid (IMHO), and which provide different sorts of knowledge, not readily accessible via the scientific method. Whereas I can’t take ethnography seriously as science, I think it is a powerful methodology when considered as craft-led research (a subset of practice-led research) (the craft in this case being writing). I am wondering how much ethnographers do themselves a disservice by trying to insist they are scientists. Science isn’t all of human knowledge and the world would be a dull place if it was.
p.s. I thought it a dreadful shame that on this edition of metanomics Robert Bloomfield chose not so much to connect-the-dots as to push his fundamentalist augmentationist agenda. This paragraph in particular filled me with dread …
Robert Bloomfield said: “But how much can we learn about people from the way they dress? Is that woman really a man? Maybe we can tell. Group membership and other profile data would also seem to provide a lot of useful information that we can use to identify who’s who. In the end, the Reynard Program will help the sincere among us in two ways. By helping us uncover tricksters and perhaps more importantly, by helping us devise new ways to establish our reputations and our credentials more reliably within the rather unusual sphere of Virtual Worlds, and Second Life in particular. And, by the way, don’t be surprised if later this year you see researchers in Second Life asking you to fill out surveys that will help them correlate your real-life characteristics with your Second-Life behaviours, profile data and other information from the World. I hope that you will all cooperate with them, as this is a research program that I think can really help all of us. But, one caution, before you provide any personal information: double-check their credentials.”
A week after reading this, my jaw still hasn’t undropped enough to write a civil response (but I’ll be back when it has).
Unfortunately, one can literally see the difference when walking past someone with a 1000 and over ARC in a crowded event. Hair Fair for example. I never had the rubber band experience walking past someone with an ARC of 1.
Sometimes a smooth experience and being courteous is welcome when attending a popular venue.
On 06.24.09 Anonymus-Not said:
ARC is called shame in the source code. Guess why.
Ah and all those 3DS MAX kiddies should be taught how to optimize stuffs.
Btw an ARC fence should be built in the estate tools. If you can ban types of people (like non-verified accs) why cant you ban ignorant resource hogs?
And fashion divas? SL women look nothing like RL women. They look ugly in SL. Not just ugly. Dull.
You should know by now you are *expected* and it is *demanded* that you painstakingly transcribe every last word into written transcript, AND analyze it for any inside scoops and predictions based on the spin that was spun after unspinning it and didecting and describing such spin and why it is spin and why it was spun to begin with.
“ROBERT BLOOMFIELD: Whereas, in Second Life, it’s quite high. And we’ve got a couple questions just regarding, I guess, let’s just talk about the client as opposed to the user. Mitch Wagner is asking, “Are we going to see this ever as a web plug in or something like that?” And Valiant Westland asks, “Are we ever going to see this in Best Buy, like the Sims?” Do you see anything like that?
MARK KINGDON: Well, I think you’re more likely to see it in Best Buy as a package piece of software maybe with a headset included in a really, really good how to book, before you see it as a web plug in because that’s much easier. We’ve had conversations, certainly, about packaging up and making it available.
As for making it a web plug in, our strategy is somewhat different. With respect to the viewer, we’re really trying to create a 2.0 experience that’s much more intuitive, much more natural and much more easy for the new user to adopt, and that will be a downloadable client in the short term.
ROBERT BLOOMFIELD: Let me ask. When you say 2.0, you just mean a complete overhaul. You’re not using a Web 2.0 buzzword. Is that right?
MARK KINGDON: Yes. I’m talking about it in terms of an overhaul or renovation of the current viewer. But, there are a lot of Web 2.0 tools and approaches that we want to introduce to the Second Life experiences. Those will be very much web based. Next month we’re going to launch kind of the first rev of our new website which starts to move in that direction or build a platform for further extensions, later in the year, out to the web. Social tools are really, really powerful, and we want to be able to extend the Second Life experience out to social media properties that people enjoy today. You can find a lot of photographs on Flickr. Plurk has a lot of activity. Second Lifers are definitely tweeting because I see them on TweetDeck every morning, but there’s a lot more opportunity for us there that we haven’t developed. So we have the viewer, but, in parallel, we’ve started quite a lot of work on the web side of the business.”
SCOOP: Social media is the buzz of the year. Twitter is the next big thing (until it’s not). M uses TweetDeck.
Phew, good thing that’s not even close to the final UI (according to Howard Linden), or that’d be a real embarrassing juxstaposition.
On 06.24.09 ARC Nazi hater said:
Geem Anonymus-Not…. better to be a resouce hog than a whining ARC Nazi. If you had the brains God gave a doorknob you’d not insist others make changes to their SL experience simply because you have a lousy machine and are too stupid to reconfigure it to optimize SL on YOUR end.
Doubledown: I would like to invite you to our virtual campus. Our intent at vTSTC is to move online learning from being a process driven exercise to experience based learning. We believe it is through experience our students will excel in their academic and professional achievements.
So in other words, you are right on track by asking what about the college experience and can it be created in a virtual environment. I will let you be the judge. Feel free to send me an in-world IM for a tour at your convenience. (SL Name: ChrisG Techsan)
wow we really are becoming like america…..and have no rights as adults……wow…..thought australia was a free country …. grow up … thats incredable…whats it worry ppl what others play games on the net at home….have u guys ever watched the simpsons…that so called cartoon show for kids ……damn amazing
further more that must also mean u have to ban all adult content from the internet….that means…australian economy goes down the tubes even more…..i play second life and curently have bigpond…nows theres a bill i get rid of…good luck bigpond and other internet surpliers….ohhh wait can we play simpsons online……unbelievable
“wow we really are becoming like america…..and have no rights as adults……wow”
Okay, blatant anti-American B.S.
1) Second Life is an American company, in America, and hasn’t been banned. Maybe America isn’t the one you should be concerned about right now. If you’re trying to point fingers at countries which have less rights, why not bring up Iran? Blatant violations there, right? Ah yes, but that’s so easy and if you did that…it wouldn’t be anti-American.
2) I’m American, I live in America, and I have tons of rights. I am not “less free” than in other Western countries. Right now, I’m visiting Paris. I speak fluent French, I know French culture, I taught myself the language over 10 years. I have lived in England and other places as well. I can tell you that I’ve never felt that America is “less free” than those other places. I think it’s BS how people spew this nonsense online as if it were true.
On 06.25.09 Corcosman Voom said:
If I am reading the Wikipedia article about the MA15+ standard correctly, having age verification for online content provides an exemption; at least in the current system.
Technically, there are no new laws. Not yet, anyway.
Also, the the Inquisitr is incorrect, so far, nothing has been said about Second Life.
It is *likely* that Australians will be blocked from SL if the new system goes ahead as is currently planned, but it is not yet clear certain that it will do so, especially as there is a much more severe issue with the new measures.
Australians, you may like to contact your government representative about this at the earliest opportunity.
New Zealand went through a similar spell of madness to do with peoples rights online (3 strikes and you’re kicked off the net, I think it was) and that was overturned. The whole net chimed in on that issue and hopefully the same will happen again with Australia.
On 06.25.09 Yoshimi Yoshikawa said:
Net filtering has been heavily protested, to no avail sadly.
Australians are being given no say in the matter really.
The irony about all this is that given the new implementations by Linden Labs regarding Age Verification AND the long existing Teen Grid… we still may be blocked out.
The obsession with trying to control the internet really comes down to controlling the people of course.. the things that are plastered all over the media to “inform” the morally upright citizen of the “evils” of the internet & games are scapegoats.
The really sad part about all this and something the goverment completely ignores is that many online gamers find social interaction that may be hard for them in normal life… whether they be lonely, disabled or marginalised in any way.. or maybe they can’t afford to go out to nightclubs given the current economic situation.
As a long term SL resident and an Australian, I will be doing my utmost to oppose these policies and shall encourage my friends to do the same.
Somehow I think this will lift what was already a big protest into a higher gear as online gaming is very popular here…let’s hope so!
I once heard someone say a bad word during a conference call. Someone should tell Australia they should ban Skype too. Oh, and WebEx. In fact, I once saw someone type a bad word using Microsoft Office. They seemed to be enjoying themselves, so it would be a game too, right? Have fun down under, everyone.
On 06.25.09 Ri said:
Oh, this better not be true! Second life is a huge form of income for me!
I will be finding more information on this and definitely get some people together opposing this before it goes too far.
On 06.25.09 Ri said:
LOL @ Robert, oh yes, that’ll be the way it does. Even neopets will be banned at this rate. I’m sure people have said “bad words” on there.
I’m tired of statements like that going unchallenged. If you don’t like it, stop finger-pointing at some fantasy you have about a typical American. Present your grievance to your own legislature.
On 06.25.09 Khiara Kanto said:
Im a secondlife user, although imnot in australia, a huge clump of my friends are. if this’s indeedtrue, theres gona be some serious bitchfits going on :/….
and those spewin anti-american bs, im with summer sis too… yall needa grow the f*** up… ooopsie i said bad word. oh wait, its not illegal in UK to swear. fuckin great.
It sounds like the Australian parliament could pass a law which distinguishes online environments like Second Life from games. Banning Second Life because it is used to depict sexual content is like banning Firefox for the same reason.
On 06.25.09 Black said:
SL isn’t a game to many people. I’m not aussie, but my dearest friends and a woman I love very much are. SL gives me the opportunity to spend time with them on a more dynamic platform then skype, or msn could. I hope they realize that this kind of censorship won’t get rid of the mature content out there. people interested in that kind of material will always find access to it somehow. but many people will lose contact with friends and loved ones.
On 06.25.09 Timothy Horrigan said:
I said earlier:
“It sounds like the Australian parliament could pass a law which distinguishes online environments like Second Life from games. Banning Second Life because it is used to depict sexual content is like banning Firefox for the same reason.”
I did a little research:
I have little or no idea what the rules are for the Australian Parliament, even though I am a member of a somewhat simliar body in the USA, i.e., the New Hampshire General Court.
The House and Senate do not meet again until mid-August. A bill could (I am guessing) be introduced at that time, or maybe even earlier but then it has to go through committee in one house and then be passed and sent through a similar process in the other house before being signed into law.
It’s up to the Aussies to fix this problem: a well-intentioned law was written too restrictively and hopefully they will be able to fix it. It would be difficult to stop Aussies from downloading Second Life and playing it in the meantime.
Depending on what the law says, the Lindens could get an injunction. I suspect LL has lawyers and lobbyists in Canberra working on this even as we speak, since Australia is a major market for SL.
It is a good thing this isn’t happening in NH: we can only file legislation for next year during a single week in mid-September, and it can’t be acted on until January-June 2010.
On 06.25.09 pixels said:
I think Censorship Minister Stephen “Goebbels” Conroy should be examined very closely. It’s always the ultra conservative repressed gov. officials who try to “moralize” the public by seeking to control the public via religious based dogma derived from some archaic time in history and it’s these same self appointed moral control freaks who inevitably reveal themselves to be hypocritical significant pervs.
Just in the last couple of weeks here in the US, we’ve had two right wing conservative family values intolerant asshat politicians both get caught boinking their extra-marital twinkies.
And really, WTF? Why is gov. trying to parent here? The responsibility of what children see on TV, in films, in games and online is that of their parents, not the gov. Slap warning stickers on things — but leave the parenting to the parents. If the parents are too fucking stupid to responsibly parent their kids and block their computers with tons of software that is available or use V chip technology, etc., then have the gov. go after the parents and punish them for neglect, child endangerment, etc. Don’t punish responsible adults (with or without kids) who are perfectly capable of deciding for themselves (and their children) what content on TV, in films, games and the net they choose or don’t choose to view.
On 06.25.09 Davide Ferri said:
well what about my case I have a business in SL what happens to that
On 06.25.09 annoyed aussie said:
and a friend i know works for SL and its their job …will they lose their job!
On 06.25.09 annoyed aussie said:
why do aussie put up with such crap from teh government!!!!
we are still the only place in teh world who gets charged for internet data and gets capped !!!
On 06.25.09 Nick Le said:
I hope they ban this game.
I mean other than the adult content you have gambling/money laundering businesses disguised as skill game operators.
I hope the FBI looks into this.
On 06.25.09 Nick Le said:
Someone tell me what is so fucking bad about banning this game?
On 06.25.09 annoyed aussie said:
nick le some people make a living from this game like my friend who works for linden labs she will lose her job how how would you like it if you would lose your job because some moron decided that adults cant do adult things
On 06.25.09 JDNSW said:
Age verification is not an option for games, because there is no rating higher than MA15+ in Australia, and even for adult sites with approved ratings (e.g. R18+) the age verification has to meet conditions that webmaster outside Australia is going to bother with – it includes requirements for record keeping which probably fall foul of local privacy laws.
No legislation has been formulated yet, all we can go on is stated government policy. With a majority in the House and good party discipline there is no doubt that anything proposed will get through the House. The situation in the Senate is different – no party has a majority, and if, as is likely, the opposition conservatives oppose it, it has no chance, as the Greens are outright against it.
However, if rejected by the Senate twice, with an interval of three months, the government has the option of calling an early election for both houses. Assuming the government is returned, it could then hold a joint sitting of both houses, which could pass the legislation, assuming that the majority in the House is greater than the lack of one in the Senate.
This outcome is unlikely, because proportional representation in the Senate, coupled with electing a whole Senate (normally half at a time) would make it likely that there would be even more unaligned senators, a situation the government is unlikely to relish.
On 06.25.09 annoyed aussie said:
what is also in second life is people that have disabilities able to socialize and people making friends and creativity and in my case i make music so i play my music to the world and have concerts, there are people who have bad social skill being able to be more relaxed due to not having to be embaressed by their looks … a way to make international friends catching up with family from overseas or how about shift workers that get to socialise due to different time zone i know heaps of people who have found love in this game which has developed into real life relations and marriage . by the way gambleing has be stopped in SL so that is good so you can scrap that part from it and now SL is going to make the adult part of SL restricted from under age people so whats bad with that??
On 06.25.09 Tula Saros said:
I’m not anti American I love them…most of my best friends are american and I met them online…..I love SL …..and I wasnt having a go at americans personally…..Just the some ppl in government who think they are do-gooders dictate to what other ppl can do
On 06.25.09 Nickstar said:
im on secondlife all the time i have met so many friends and have more ppl that feel like family to me why the damn hell ban something that is played in our own homes and if ur not smart enough to stop ur under age children playing games like this then thats ur folt im a full time mum of 3 and i love my second life its the only adult compoany i have during the day and keeps me from going nuts i know that their are alot of really pissed off aussies right now Plz do not ban sl it has made my life better and i know ppl actualy make money on sl so u would be killing ppls only income that just not right.
On 06.25.09 Surreal said:
omg, I cant even grasp what our government thinks its doing??? If I wanted to live in a communist country I would move to china, where they even censor google. I mean come on politicians stop trying to be the all knowing. Its a knee jerk reaction to a world wide problem with pedo rings and such. But as an adult who has children, you learn fast about the newest technology so we can properly guide them. The parents need to be pro active, the government would be better in educating them instead of punishing the rest of the country. I have a business in Second life, a lot of my friends do as well. I have a good friend that works for Linden Labs, this would mean her job, and how she provides for her family. Just recently the community of Second life raised over $11,000 AUD in world for the bushfire appeal in Victoria. Not too mention all the other charity work that happen every day in world. Its just a joke really what our government wants to do , plain stupid. I cant believe they were voted in really. When does it stop?? do they pull the plug on the internet, like a parent punishing a naughty child?? Shame on you Stephen Conroy, shame on you
On 06.25.09 Tula Saros said:
exactly what annoyed aussie says, sl is a social life normal ppl would not have in real life….for different reasons…..I’m very shy in real life but when Im in sl I have fun..listen to music dance and I dj on there, and I have millions of friends there I can talk to not only in America (where the majority of my friends are from)from all over the world….and I can get on sl and talk to them anytime I want….
On 06.25.09 Tula Saros said:
Very True Surreal
On 06.25.09 Tula Saros said:
If I cant get on SL, i wont pay for internet…and from me bigpond gets $80 a month and thats just me …1 person….1 house….can u imagine how many Australians there is that will do the same ….
On 06.25.09 Bonny said:
I’m an American currently living in Australia and I can tell you now, we have a LOT more freedoms than Aussies do. Sorry to say it.. but you Anti-American’s are dead wrong there. And our stores don’t all close at 5:30 either.. that’s a wash!
On 06.25.09 Ri said:
Eh, i’m still really annoyed about this. If they want to ban a virtual world, they better ban the real damn world too, where’s it’s a hell of a lot worse than SL.
I would go back and re-read Tateru’s comment I think she is on the money. Nothing to get hysterical about yet. The commentator in this article highlighted the idiocy of the legislation by mentioning SL and WOW. I’ll worry about it if it happens.
The Senator needs better advisors, it seems like he is being advised by people with no bloody idea. Again its a case of walking around with blinkers on just ignoring progress until it is upon them and they haven’t planned for it. SL has been around now for 6 years!!!! ok so we are slow to pick it up, but its our terrible internet that makes it very hard for people to embrace the internet as people do in other developed countries. The Howard Govt didn’t care about the internet and put it in the too hard basket and now its coming back to bite us in the bum, we should have got a better broadband 5 years ago! and now we have to wait for it, some of us another 8 years! gees…we will be Teleporting around the globe by the time that comes in!
I suggest they have some real expert advisors now to prevent such a stupid loss of opportunity happening again. Wake up guys the internet is here…its not going anywhere, can we please just get on board?
And yes my sentiments exactly about Net Nanny, I’m the Net nanny at my home to my 2 young boys, same as I am the Food nanny the sleep time nanny and the TV and Film watching Nanny its all about saying No and watching what your kids consume. I do not employ a Nanny to restrict my kids intake of anything! It aint hard folks…keep the computers in the family room and look over their shoulder from time to time and check history…If they purposely go looking for anything you don’t want them to switch it off! for a while, they will get the message.
Paisley
On 06.25.09 Alberik Rotaru said:
Senator Stephen Conjob, the Minister against Communications is a nutter. He’s just lost his struggle to impose mandatory internet filtering and this is just his latest rush of blood to the head. Not all ministerial press releases end up as legisaltion. Conjob’s chance of getting these laws is passed is zero, zip, nada.
There are more serious (and more senior) people in cabinet like Lindsay Tanner who are likely to block this sort of nonsense before it gets anywhere near the parliament.
Conjob opened a consultation blog in December to discuss Internet filtering and shut it down after 4 days when it became obvious there was almost no community support for his proposals and all the blog was doing was exposing the woeful technical ignorance of Conjob and his staff.
Tanner has just opened a new government blog within his own department and that is probably a good place to comment on the latest Conjob folly.
Being that I don’t live in Australia, I did a little research. Seems you have the same issues we do with the moral majority right wing nuts seeking to foist their religious based moral ideology via politics and public policy onto the public.
While Conroy seems to be clueless, it appears that South Australian Attorney-General Michael Atkinson is the man responsible for your vid game ratings FUBAR. And gems such as this one:
[[In 2002, Australia banned Grand Theft Auto III for allowing certain actions against virtual prostitutes; the game was later reinstated when this action was removed. Specifically, the player could solicit services from a virtual prostitute, and then kill her. The ability to solicit sex from prostitutes in the game was the action that was removed, but the player could still violently murder them.]]
That’s just insane — they make them remove the prostitution but the violent killing is okay. Typical rightwingnut ideology.
Here’s more about Asskisser and his handiwork:
[[He is seen as a mentor to younger members of Parliament, particularly those within the right faction, and has a particular interest in world history and Christian values.
Atkinson is responsible for maintaining Australia's status as one of the few Western countries without an "Adults Only" rating for video games, despite overwhelming demand for such a rating. Due to this, Atkinson is often at the receiving end of criticism from the international Video Gaming community. Other related consequences include the sale of what are rated "Adult Only" games in other countries to minors and repeated inconsistent decisions from the OFLC who are "stuck between a rock and a hard place". He has withdrawn his support for a discussion paper and public consultation on the subject of an "R18+" rating, although the Standing Committee of Attorneys-General still has this issue on its agenda, it is improbable that there will be unanimity which will result in introduction of the rating being almost impossible.
The M rating is recommended for mature but moderately young audiences, around the teen years. Language is relatively free, but “aggressive or strong coarse language” should be infrequent, and sexual innuendo is freely thrown around and sex may be mildly implied, and there is slightly more violence present. Sexual violence is not allowed. Drug use can be depicted in context. This was formerly known as "M15+", but was changed to M to be consistent with film ratings. This rating is not restricted.
The “MA15+” rating is restricted to those 15 and over meaning those under 15 cannot legally play or buy the game without being accompanied by a parent or legal guardian. It can contain strong gruesome violence if justified by context, strong implication of sexual activity, much coarse language (though “very coarse language” should be infrequent), and “strong themes”.
There is no R18+ or X18+ rating for video games, meaning that any game that exceeds the MA15+ classification would be automatically Refused Classification and banned.
SNIP
The lack of R18+ and X18+ ratings for games has been the subject of complaint in the gaming community, particularly on the basis that there is no reason why adults should not be able to see content in games that they would see in a film. One of the main opponents to the introduction of a R18+ rating for video games is the South Australian Attorney-General Michael Atkinson who has vetoed every attempt to induce one.[13][14] Although recently Australian video game show Good Game announced that a meeting of the Attorneys-General in March 2008 resulted in a decision that the Australian public would be consulted before a final decision on the status of a R18+ rating for video games would be made.]]
Time to run this dinosaur out of dodge and find someone who has one foot firmly planted in reality and the other in the future.
Sounds like a reasonable cost if they had a skin and shape custom made by qualified content creators.
On 06.26.09 Wolfinlied said:
I am an SL player, im disabled irl. Im not trying to get sympathy but that game is my life ive established my friends and even create in there. Are they going to pay m my loss when they cut this off to me?
If they had half a brain they would just change the rules for australians and SL. Make australians need a LICENCE NUMBER on signing up for age verification. As it is Linden labs are already moving all the adult sims to a redlight district. Couldnt they just ban us from there? I dont know how they lay straight in bed at night, thinking they are doing better for all of us. I can tell you now this isnt better for me, and my friends will miss me dearly all because of one snotty nose rich f*** who will make up AN ADULTS MIND FOR THEM.
I WANT MY FREE COUNTRY BACK!
On 06.26.09 Kristy said:
This is a real worry. I have a back issue and I am unable to work in most jobs. I have started to make a comfortable hobby income from SL and soon planned to make it a job/pay taxes ect. If they plan to ban me from SL I will loose my only income and my home. I do not want to become a doll bludger, I am an artist and enjoy what I am doing.
This is disgusting, I hope they dont pull through!
On 06.26.09 Ask said:
This is also sounding very much like what china dis. Since when was Australia a communist country?
On 06.26.09 Bud said:
Do all you people seriously think they are going to stop censorship so you can continue making your tax free income. No one give s a shit about your inworld profits, nor do they mine. Its alot deeper than that. Stop being so self-representing and look at the big picture.
On 06.26.09 Alberik Rotaru said:
Australia is not a communist country, no legislation has yet been passed or even presented to parliament. A majority of the Senate will oppose Conjob on this proposal as they already have on his mandatory ISP filtering scheme. The very last thing that will help keep the senators onside is overheated stuff about whether we are a communist country or not.
There’s already some fairly overheated stuff on other blogs that demonstrates more about what how little the commenters know about Australia than anything else.
@Bud We pay tax on our SL incomes, thankyou very much.
@Alberik: Well said, thankyou. What concerns me, however, is how the scheme seems to be expanding, apparently with the intent of gaining *more* support with the Senate. Look at how successful certain game-related legislation is in the USA… despite serious flaws, more more people vote for legislation that apparently controls mature games than other forms of mature media.
On 06.26.09 Kristy said:
@ bud as Tate says, most pay taxes on their incomes. Thus it is a legitimate job with a legitimate income. And we are looking at the bigger picture, thus why we are concerned?
On 06.26.09 KahluaKidd said:
OMFG good on the Aussie’s to be the 1st in the Internet BULLSHIT game…I sucessfully play Second Life and have a business in there too which generates money to Australia.. HOW STUPID is our so called non-informed head hunters? Yanno as Michael Jackson said not EVERY1 thinks with their minds in the gutter…Have another BONG parliment watch ya PORNO’s and leave the intellegent people handle the internet… What a load of WANK… AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE ___________FAIL!
The title is misleading.. The Australian Government’s plan is to implement it’s own ‘Great Firewall’, effectively controlling internet access. Started a couple years ago with the “We want to block porno” saying – currently in a closed beta test, with a handful of users/ISPs participating.
————————
‘Great Firewall’ reference: http://tr.im/pSd9
On 06.26.09 Alberik Rotaru said:
@Tateru
I would not think the average senator is sufficiently aware of Second Life or virtual worlds for this to be a move to expand support. The only senator, apart from Conroy, who gets excited about this stuff is Fielding and he is already firmly in Conroy’s camp. The Opposition and the Greens are not interested in supporting the filter and banning online games gives them no reason to change their position.
The senate rejection of the filter has been based on an overreach argument with Conroy refusing to define dangerous phrases like ‘other unwanted content’. Conroy’s only public appearance in defence of his plan was QandA on the ABC and they received more critical questions directed at Conroy than they ever had for any other panelist. Expanding the filter to a whole new area is the last thing that would make it saleable.
It’s just another spectacular Conroy blunder, like his announcement on his blog last December that he would be filtering all data, not just web data.
I think it doesn’t matter whether it’s a service or a place. You maybe can say, the one thing is the transport layer, the other the content transported.
And the discussion seem to be very actively held all over the world. We in Germany just had a bill passed which wants to ban child porn via DNS redirections, like done already in the scandinavian countries.
All arguments the net community came up with (including a petition signed by 134,000 people, making it the biggest ePetition so far) have been ignored by politicians. They like more to hide stuff instead of fighting it (there’s also an election coming up) and thus doing nothing criminal content. Of course such an infrastructure once built will soon also be used for other content, stored on secret “ban lists” which might or might not contain also legal content.
So here the service area is under attack and there also are voices to make such filtering EU wide. And while I wouldn’t call blocking access to child porn censorship nevertheless an infrastructure for possible censorship is built, esp. because our federal police agency is controlling the list and only resistence from the net community now made politicians put a group into place overlooking it minium all 3 months (but only random samples). No judge involved in front. No rechecking of sites if they still belong on that list.
As for games we have a debate about so-called “killer games” which are said to be the reason for recent amok runs. There is also talk about banning such games and also putting sites with them on these lists. You can now wonder if SL is a killer game or not because you can indeed build a gun and point it to other people.
We are in a very dangerous development right now as more and more government try to regulate something they have no idea about. We call them “old men with ballpen” or internet printers. But they are usually in the ruling parties and I can only urge everybody to contact their MPs and tell them about this wonder we call the internet. Try for a personal meeting, be well informed, be polite and try to explain them why filtering and banning is no solution.
So please don’t think there is too much difference between Europe and Australia. Look at the first versions of the EU Telecom Package and you will find a lot of ideas regarding internet filtering.
And in Germany we see that we have a troubling development towards censorship infrastructure partly circumventing the division of powers.
PS: Of course I don’t want to defend child porn here and in no way do I think it should be available on the internet or elsewhere. But you need to investigate it and get the people who put it online, not just hide it between STOP-signs. Give police more money and know-how and then this might actually help abused children.
On 06.26.09 Alberik Rotaru said:
Afterthought
As Tateru said on her blog, and I agree, I would be entirely unsurprised if this is a result of someone reading about Zindra. I’d be equally unsurprised if other political advisers in other countries are not reading about Zindra also. This is the sort of thing that happens when LL decides to shoot itself in the foot.
On 06.26.09 Melponeme_k said:
You overestimate the American government’s ability to dictate anything anymore. Considering that the country is basically insolvent and in hoc to China.
Australia and others will do what they want in regards to game censorship. And right now, I can’t say I blame them in regards to SL.
@Alberik: Oh, there’s a high level of awareness in the Oz senate just now. A lot of recent talk about terrorist bombings in SL, and of course sex.
I think, though, what would get this legislation over the line in the senate right now is the current expansion to encompass games. Mass Effect (the so-called sex-simulator for kids), Second Life, the recent RapePlay thing. Sex and games (or things that superficially resemble games if you stand far enough away from them) are a strongly coupled unit in the minds of politicians right now.
The early Internet pioneers liked to think that it was some untouchable “other place”, unfettered by government interference. I think that most people using e-mail, web and Internet social media are quite a bit more realistic these days and are aware of the ways in which governments around the world has applied the rules that apply to the real world to the “ether”. Those rules are simply to enforce existing rules, modified rules or new rules against the *citizens* of those counties. Thus, the question of who should control freedoms in virtual worlds is already mooted by the reality that governments enforce local laws on the users, will enforce those local laws and could care less what “should” happen.
Each government has its special style to the enforcement. China aggressively filters and prosecutes those who avoid those filters or distribute unwanted content. The United States government has been remarkably hands off (although specific classes of behaviour will get your teeth kicked in effectively enough, and the RIAA has acted as an non-government actor that has the impact of government enforcement of copyright). Other countries will vary in between these two extremes.
This is no different from the Internet, and it points out why it is important that Linden Lab get its house in order (ala the great migration of adult content to a more controllable zoned and filtered area) if they want to continue being accessable around the world. Should they be forced to become nannies is a different question, and ultimately moot as well in the face of a battery of governments that plan of enforcing their local standards. Being blocked around the world is *not* a growth strategy.
On 06.26.09 Linz said:
First thing *WE* Australians should ban the ISPS that test and support this stuff, there are plenty of others that have refused to participate.
Cheers Linz
On 06.26.09 JoshJosh Beaumont said:
This sounds like a sensationalist journalism beat up. Lets remember that some significant institutions in Australia has a presence within Second Life including Telstra Bigpond and the Commonwealth’s own ABC or Australian Broadcasting Commission, amongst a number of Universities.
On 06.26.09 Alberik Rotaru said:
@Tateru
The search: AuthorSpeakerReporter:”second life” Dataset:hansards in the Senate Hansard gives 0 results.
On 06.26.09 Alberik Rotaru said:
The short answer is that no-one should control freedom anywhere by that would be la la la politics.
Behind every avatar there is a user and that user is the bearer of rights. Natural law advocates would argue that rights are inherent and cannot be taken away by any government or by any entity, such as Linden Lab, created by a government. Positivists would take more restricted views of what rights users have and the content of those rights.
I seriously doubt anyone would argue that users have, or should have, only those rights defined by a corporation for its own benefit. The court in Bragg v Linden Lab agreed.
On 06.27.09 Nancy streeter said:
I can’t beleive you guys would really do this im a mother of 1 at the moment and i love to go on “Second Life” when my son is sleeping thats wat i do in my free time.. why would you take that away from us there are soo manny australians that go on SL..
Or is that why you want to do it cause Australia didnt come up with the Idea 1st!!!!
On 06.27.09 Funny said:
LOL! Australia is becoming the shittiest developed nation in the world. Might as well be a theocracy or China.
On 06.27.09 Alberik Rotaru said:
Well gee Funny, I’d have though it was a fair distance from a press release to a bill that’s unlikely to pass the parliament to Tienanmen or Teheran but evidently you know a lot more about these things than the rest of us.
On 06.27.09 Usagi Dagger said:
I think the Australian Government should keep their hands out of Secondlife. My feelings as an american is that the ADULTS can do what they want with their time… I mean does Australia ban movies that are rated R (movies that are violent or sexually charged like say, “Die hard”)
On 06.27.09 Prokofy Neva said:
I’m all for virtual worlds being subject to the rule of law of elected democratic governments.
If virtual worlds like Second Life were subject to the rule of law, the courts, the Congress, and the government, here’s what we would have:
o freedom of speech under the First Amendment — no more bans from forums or JIRA because somone criticizes a Linden pet or persists to report a bug as a bug and not a feature; no more requirements that a birthday celebration can’t show nudity, etc.
o no more seizure of property without due process — no more “any reason or no reason” TOS that could arbitrarily seize your land and boot you
o more court accessibility to stem griefing and grievances that occur because some people hog resources, harass others, etc.
There are many, many advantages to having these lawless serfdoms totally under the arbitrary control of game gods subject to the rule of law and the courts. It would improve life online immeasurably.
If Australia is cracking down on the Internet in general, and pornography is something that is subject to law, then it has to be tackled on that basis, in the manner in which you’d fight a court case in the U.S. Supreme Court — and change your laws if you must.
The solution is not to make virtual worlds even more lawless and even more oppressively under the diktat of game gods just to escape a legitimate democratic government’s law.
The idea Philip espoused of having SL a country is great — but countries have governance and the rule of law.
On 06.27.09 Alberik Rotaru said:
Prokofy is dead right on the issue of human rights in virtual worlds, although the report of an Internet crackdown in Australia is grossly exaggerated. Australians are not prudes and events like reaction to the Janet Jackson wardrobe malfunction left us alternately gobsmacked or helpless with laughter. We do think child protection takes priority over other values, even the clear and present danger of stray nipples, or the Linden Lab passion for allegedly libertarian values at all costs.
The argument over the Conroy proposals is about whether they will work and whether they contain appropriate safeguards for free expression, not whether they offend an abstract canon.
There’s been a remarkable amount of silliness written about the Conroy proposal on Second Life. It is a press release. It will require legislation. Conroy does not have the numbers in the senate to pass his main proposal, let alone this facet of it. (In a parliamentary system the government always has a majority in the house of representatives because there is a change of government if it does not)
I am still a lot happier with the public process by which the Conroy proposals can be contested than with the Linden Lab equivalent of wikis, forums and (timezone-gerrymandered) office hours where victory almost invariably goes to the loudest with the most time.
As far as foreign diplomatic intervention goes, Australia’s current growth rate is negative 0.4%. The US figure is negative 2.5%. The average OECD figure is negative 4.3%. Various excitable comments around the blogs about the economic clout of the US against Australia would seem to be somewhat exaggerated. I am not completely certain that a ban on Second Life would immediately bring our economy to its knees.
The US has, according to both recent US administrations, no better diplomatic or military ally than Australia.
I am not completely and absolutely convinced Obama or Clinton will be eager to degrade that alliance by lobbying for the interests of a private corporation that claims to be beyond the law and thinks the sight of child avatars wandering around Zindra is desirable.
Banning Second Life would be seriously bad policy for any number of reasons. The single best thing that those who want to help us oppose the Conroy proposals could do is explain to Linden Lab that their child avatar enthusiasms are insupportable.
On 06.28.09 trish said:
i think this is total bull, i play SL and i think people should have to right to be able to play what they want, I have made so many good friends on SL and by taking that away your also taking away the friends that i have met, and im sure there are plenty of other australians who feel the same as i do. Please reconsider before doing this!!!
On 06.28.09 elizabeth said:
WAT A JOKE!!! i cant believe there thinking of taking second life away, ive been playing it for years and have spent countless amounts of money on this game, SL has taken the measures to make sure that young kids cant play this game, were adults for god sake, u may as well take porn out of australia too and make australia a G rated country.
[...] sinking moments, like the recent post of the “New” Second Life viewer, which turned out not to be new at all, just a sort of pencil sketch of some interface things that wasn’t really meant to be [...]
I’m quite high on this new service too. As I reported a few months ago, it’s all based on Jive Software’s SBS community software, which is an extraordinarily powerful tool. Jive’s approach is to produce a really smooth interface that is socially engineered to encourage the highest level of adoption by the intended user base. Linden Lab could have done a lot worse by selecting another tool to base their web interface upon.
Sad….under our current socialist regime here in America, nothing would surprise me. Probably they’ll get inspiration from Australia. Hmm….wonder what businesses like IBM and Dell will do?
On 06.29.09 Scott said:
Someone above mentioned “right wingnuts in America”….but the current leftist, socialist administration is doing far more to squelch dissent than the conservatives have done. And not only that, they want to force everyone to listen to their message of “big government will take care of you.” More like Big Brother.
On 06.29.09 Annemarie King said:
I helped rasied over 60,000L to help some ppl out in r/l that had their electricity turned off…ppl raised money from all over the world in secondlife to help with the fire relief fund in Austrlaia. People who have a terminal illness get pleasure in talking and listening to the music at ballrooms, dressing up their avis. Dont take these wonderful things away from the Austrlaians. Second Life is the only way for some people to communicate with others. Banning this virtual world from us is uncaring and irresponsable. Everyone make a noise NOW!!! Help us please!!!!
On 06.29.09 Anonymus-Not said:
Gemini.. does it have the source code available and if it has, where? Or does it violate the source code’s license?
(To clarify, the code snippet was from Meerkat, not sure the perm code is the same in Gemini).
On 06.29.09 Rumbo said:
I think that everyone is getting a little carried away.The Queensland Govt.and Telstra both have sims in Second life and use it for advertising.The Last Australian govt (John Howard+Co) Died a horrible death at the last election and they tried to get a filtering system happening using an american co to make the filter and a 15 year old cracked it it 15 minutes.Don’t panic folks I’m sure everything will be fine .have some faith!!!
we are gonna fight this crap. I’m american but my cto and vp of marketing at slut mag inc are aussies. WE MAKE PORN IN SL. Will the filtering block the download or the actual connection to the game. we will look deep into ways of bypassing the filtering. fuck the aussie government!
I recently spent a weekend with 7 viewers installed on my Windows box and three on my Mac (not including the LL Viewer) and I’ve discovered that:
Meerkat is by far the most creator-friendly.
As for Cool SL, GreenLife Emerald and Gemini – they all seem based on each other (in that order) – with slight additional features added along the way.
And My the way, the “trojan/malware” rumor is about as serious and accurate as that news being spread that someone is teleporting around the grid with a scripted object that wipes-out entire private sim regions and deletec everything from your inventory. :\
The fact of the matter is this: first, as a creator it would be quite conceited of me to run around paranoid that my creations are even worth copy-botting.
Second, even if they were, the grid is massive. You remember when concurrency was around 6000? That’s about the time Copybot made it’s debut. Certainly panic was in the air (we all remember that fiasco.)
But with cincurrency hovering at 60-70,000 (meaning about 20,000 of live people who aren’t bots – snickers) – it’s not quite as alarming because there are a lot more customers to ‘go around’.
I am not making light of stoeln designs and copybot’s stuff. I am saying is that we have become desensitized to it. Before the movie “Saving Private Ryan” – nothing of the sort was ever created. We were SHOCKED.
Watch it agin. Now. Try not to fall asleep.
See my point?
On 06.29.09 winxile said:
Don’t know if it will help in any way but this is the contact e-Mail they have posted for him.
I read also that he was born in England ?? What the hell ?
If thousands of us send him mail maybe it will register as a pin prick on an elephant, but what the heck.
Credit Cards. Those over 18 can apply for them, those under cannot. Adult Sl is restricted to those with cards. Junior grid can have the rest who cannot own a credit card. There’s you age verification, now F&#k Off Aussie Federal Government, it’s not like I come to Canberra and point out that frittering away our tax money on hookers and half the other shit we catch you for is going to be banned anytime soon is it?
On 06.30.09 Avatara said:
I only heard about this yesterday and was surprised there was not more in the media bout it. Then realised that its a story that was taken out of context and the twisted version started as Chinese whispers.
The SMH article referred to, talks about games, but Australian gov’t doesn’t consider SL as a game – some fact checking would be in order before starting rumours that can actually cause the damage the supposed story is trying to prevent.
In any case, something as simple as age verification would sort out the issue.
I just hope the senator’s attention is not drawn to SL as a result.
If I understood Chris’ post, what he’s saying can be summed up as: Hey, remember how we made a big fuss over Second Life and all you companies jumped in there thinking you’d make a gazillion dollars and then it turned out you didn’t and you were all bummed and stuff? Well, even though we’re making just as big a fuss over Twitter and that reminds you of when we made a fuss over SL, don’t worry your little heads! We promise that you can make a bazillion dollars with Twitter!
And yeah, I agree, the “anti-textual” argument is a weird one. I _think_ he means that there is no persistence (of conversations), but that’s just a guess on my part. You might as well say that YouTube is anti-textual too.
On 06.30.09 Balpien Hammerer said:
Good for you, Tom. Having looked at the video, I can see the textures are being loaded in avatar/object distance priority (with the exception of ground textures, very good) and no stalls! Did you just fix the viewer, remaining with the old UDP approach, or is this a the HTTP streaming approach?
Well, if he’s making a monetary argument I’m really not seeing it. Twitter will be far harder to monetize than SL unless it changes it’s model. (Can a “Twitter behind the firewall” be far behind?)
Twitter as a source of monetization for the people using it (as compared to the owners) itself seems like something maybe in a larger tool kit of promotion and PR, but as such is just a tool rather than a source of enterprise value on its own.
And before I get all the other arguments – I’m not negating the idea of collaborative prototyping, idea-generation and the power of social change blah blah – but then if that’s the argument, then we’re not talking about hype related to big brand use (which is what the hype about SL was about) we’re talking about another kind of hype, in which case we shouldn’t look to SL for a comparator.
On 06.30.09 John Lopez said:
Your point about Twitter only working because of the infrastructure of the web (Blogs, YouTube, etc.) is one that most people are *not* getting about what works and what doesn’t.
At this point in the history of the web, you have to bring some *serious* firepower to the table to think that a closed service is going to gain traction with the audience today. This does not preclude “proprietary but connected” services where it is easy to link into or out of the service, but anyone trying to recreate the walled service days is fighting an uphill battle.
Facebook *was* a walled service, but it became obvious that only allowing .EDU accounts was self limiting. (On the other hand, doing so caused the *initial* spike in use thanks to being the only dedicated “college hook up” service available… so I don’t discount walled services in all scenarios.) Today you can link to a facebook account and after a quick signup most people won’t notice the “wall” because it is easy to link in both directions.
There is something to be said about Second Life’s walled garden still being a limiter though. Is it a great “social” tool. Heck yes… in fact, the limit to the number you can bring together at a time even works in *favor* of it because it keeps groups to the size where you still feel like a member of a group and not just a face in the crowd. Travelling the grid with a small group of people is fun, full stop.
But there is something to be said about the fact that, unlike blogs or twitter or forums, the experience is transitory… and difficult to share with others who don’t meet the “bar” to Second Life.
That bar is pretty high in some circles. With the tech crowd, the hardware is pretty much assumed. With educational groups, family members and random business acquaintances it is frankly likely that the hardware will be lacking in at least one regard. That lack causes the experience to be poor. Combined with the problems that no client side hardware can hide (region lag, inventory lag, voice glitches, slow rez times, etc) my attempts to “bring people on board” typically fail.
I have no idea how they plan on monetizing Twitter (adding advertising would cause them to make insane amounts in the short run though)… but for bringing *everyone* to the table, it does it right. 140 characters and links out to the actual content means even mobile devices can play effectively in the Twitter social pool. Even with quad cores and a hot video card my experience in Second Life are… less socially effective.
Not because the social experience is inferior, just that so many can’t play along. True social media has to have a very *low* bar to entry.
@John – great and valid points. Although I have to say that the idea that SL is a walled garden has increasingly less traction. Look at the inclusion of HTTP-In, the coming HTML on a prim, and the full ability to integrate what happens inside SL with the rest of the Web. The ability to access part of this content through your iPhone, custom clients, light clients, chat clients and other means increasingly connects SL to the wider web and makes it less like a walled garden and more like a “destination” within a Web of information and social connections.
I really don’t see SL as being any more “closed” than Twitter, at least not at the level of “open vs. proprietary” – both have APIs (open source clients, really and scripting), both allow users to mash up the content, both allow users to create experiences in or around….the difference is that with one, you have to download something (which also cuts off a large potential user base) but the payoff is that you get access to a wider range of tools.
But I do believe we basically agree – I’m not claiming that SL is currently a mass marketing platform. To be mass market you DO need to be light, and you need to be accessible to all. The trade-off for this, in my experience anyways, is that it may be a trillion miles wide but it’s still an inch deep. SL doesn’t claim to be a trillion miles wide but it DOES claim to be deep. And I believe that “deep” is an increasingly important feature that social media should strive for – widgets and 140 characters only take you so far.
Especially as the “end-to-end Internet” takes off, the whole thing will get even wider, with information tags on the buildings around us, but no where to actually sit down with someone and have a conversation (oh, sure, there’s REALITY but how boring is THAT?)
The question then becomes – if all of the streaming “light information” out there continues to widen, and our social connections become increasingly ephemeral (will I ever see you again? Will you be a comment alone and then you’ll wander off to other blogs? Or will I see you at a community forum and create another kind of connection?)…maybe virtual worlds play a part in those deeper connections that are so useful to making sense of a constant ocean of information and opinion, as limiting as the tools might be right now for facilitating it.
On 06.30.09 Sian said:
Well I my friend Dusty Canning cannot get online I may as well leave as well. Whats wrong with you pussie Aussies?
On 06.30.09 cube3 said:
the bottom line is that vr 3drt is a “medium” while twitter is just the “trendy” use of a medium— text, feeds.
arent you bored of all this yet?:)
just go do some work;)
On 06.30.09 John Lopez said:
I left out the part about Second Life opening up the music, movie and HTML sides, bringing them in world or allowing links out to browsers, so it does appear that I’m arguing that it is more closed than I think it is. (I wrote a tool that took mind maps and put them in world, so I’m painfully aware of all of the above and more, but I did some cut with no paste to my post.)
On the other hand, the “inbound” links to Second Life content are pretty much tied to a large download and the teleport map. I’m not against that on principle (the experience of Second Life pretty much requires a fat client) but that is what restricts the platform in a social media context.
I find it somewhat dissapointing that many people I know have seen more Second Life via YouTube (or over my shoulder) than via the Second Life viewer with their own avatar.
I’m curios if in your conferencing tests you are experiencing a similar phenomena to what we are seeing with foreign language classes in Second Life.
In the RL classroom dynamic any language teacher will tell you that the grandest hurdle is to get the student comfortable with making mistakes. The intimidation of error in front of piers and an instructor can often stifle potential and progress. Students in my virtual classrooms are bolder. I’m coining it the “avatar insulation factor”. I’m no educational psychologist but I think what’s going is that the avatar can take the blame for the errors and the human can proceed without fear.
I wondering if the corporate bosses will begin to see a similar result. Will meeting attendants become more relaxed and more engaged? Will ideas that were once lost forever due to long mahogany tables and power seating arrangements start to emerge?
Wilson – yes, and in fact that’s one of the main things we talk about when we discuss IWS – the fact that it puts participants in a different frame of mind, one that’s more conducive to learning, experiment, team-building, etc.
We’re finding that corporate clients are far less interested in the cost savings or “remote meeting” features and far more interested in the impact that has on participants’ sense of enjoyment.
You’re so right in emphasising the legislation is only proposed at this stage and that SL isn’t being explicitly targated.
That said, Linden Lab confirming they’re not aware of an issue does not indicate support in the Australian government for Second Life in any way, shape or form. The Minister in question has next to no understanding of Second Life and his only substantive comments (in Opposition from memory) on Second life was to criticise the Aust Broadcasting Corporation’s presence in SL.
Overall, it’s not the end of the world some make it out to be, but it’s also far from a resolved issue.
Hmmm….mind you, I do believe the Lab should append the statement to say something like:
“And to clarify, we have been in touch with the Australian government directly. Also, if they make a move in this direction, we have plans in place to send Philip down under to talk about electricity. That should shut them up.”
@ Lowell – agreed and agreed. This shouldn’t be taken lightly.
But what do you think of my idea of using Philip as a secret weapon? He can go down and talk about SL as a terrarium, or SL being better than the Web because it’s more like Warcraft, or maybe give them meditation lessons or something?
Any one of these ideas will bring peace and harmony to all.
(Sorry, couldn’t resist – I DO agree this shouldn’t be taken lightly, it’s just I love Pip so).
On 06.30.09 Alberik Rotaru said:
I believe the minister’s office (just of the record Conroy is officially the Minister for Communications, Broadband and the Digital Economy, not censorship) has confirmed that Second Life is not a game for the purposes of the existing and proposed censorship schemes and claimed that Second Life was not intended to be covered by the announcement.
I would be reluctant to unleash the Phil on an alarmed Canberra. My concern is that he would inadvertently persuade Conroy that either or both of electricity and terrariums are a profound evil which should be blotted from the face of the nation in the near future.
Send him down I say, though Alberik makes some good points
On 07.01.09 CHARMINE said:
LOOK i’m an average australian and i believe that sites like second life SHOULD be ALLOWED …
i go on second life to relax .. some people play poker i play second life…
i dont do anything wrong on SL…
What is the australian Gov’t gonna sensor next
Why dont they sensor those phone sex lines ..hmmmm
Second Life (and more importantly its Open Source sister) are far different systems than the current surge of Twitter. I can’t do much SL from within Twitter (other than SLURL), but I can Tweet from within SL. One is a Platform and one is a Tool.
It’s like comparing Firefox to Twitter. (And you still have to download a browser client… but nobody complains about that.) SL would be better off if people started comparing it to Firefox or perhaps even the Adobe Suite. Platforms on which tools can be built. Let me rephrase that… Linden Lab would be better off if they began thinking about SL in terms of Firefox development – as a competitor.
[...] Can Virtual Worlds Save Social Media? In any case, Chris Abraham has a long post on how Twitter’s hype cycle is BETTER than Second Life’s hype cycle and it’s because – well, because it’s light, and cute, and it’s easy to use. Which is fine, except that if I wanted a light, cute, easy to use version of Second Life I’d restrict it to being a platform where all you could do is post 140 character messages and call it a day. I wouldn’t need a client download to accomplish that. [...]
On 07.01.09 Alberik Rotaru said:
Worse than the danger to the electricity network and terrariums, what if he told Conjob about all those little people in the phone?
On 07.01.09 Stupidity at its..... said:
Lets take a broader look here.
1) The browser itself is old outdated and everyone knows that the updates are just features with bugs that they refuse to fix to make it a decent browser. Re: Your browser keeps crashing and servers keep going down.
2)Australia can sell porn and adult toys in shops and yet it cant do crap about adult games rating system?
3)There are Major companies that have invested in second life, this alone would create major lose of investments from companies like ABC & Telstra if second life were to close. (this alone would be the main reason not to ban second life)
4)If we are a so modernized and yet still do not have an adult rating system. Then doesn’t that actually mean 3 things? 1)That we (Australia) are not so modernized as people think we are (an embarrassment from the gov or the people, take your pick) & 2)That since we don’t have a efficient rating system for everything in general, then it is our (Australians) own stupidity that we still have such and incomplete system & finally 3)That any decent parent would realize that the ultimate responsibility for any one if for the parents to be responsible by overlooking the game or show first before allowing their kids to watch it, meaning you can have a rating system that is strict or old, or whatever.. in the end its not going to stop a parent or someone wanting to view something if they really want to.
So what to do???
Well like anything else that is old, outdated because people wont get off their butts and do their job.. We turn and get them to fix the bloody thing.. how do we do that? well with people from all over the world worried about SL closing.. get them to contact the right gov dept and bombard them with letters and or phones calls..
For us aussies.. well lets do the same thing.. to get a decent rating system (if that’s what everyone wants) then get off your butts and phone and send letters and bombard the gov till they do something about it and do it right… get em to fix the bloody thing once and for all.
Thats my two cents worth on this matter
Have a great day
On 07.02.09 William said:
I’m and Aussie and I’m not at all impressed with our government’s bizarre laws they are introducing. Nothing is surprising here any more. For instance, as of July 1 a new law came into effect where you can only purchase cigarettes from ONE checkout – it is illegal to sell cigarettes at another cash register but one designated. Does this make any sense? Welcome to Australia – the new Communist country downunder! They are trying to take away all our rights!!!
On 07.02.09 Stupidity at its..... said:
One thing i think you should have on this site. is the option to delete your post if you feel it needs to be deleted or be able to edit the post if a mistake is made .. whether in a form of a typo or a quote or other info…
Stupidity – e-mail me if you want, although it would have been easier if you hadn’t hidden behind an anonymous entry so I could do so myself.
Most blogs don’t allow edits/deletions. I’m always willing to help out however if there’s a reason for it.
On 07.02.09 Alberik Rotaru said:
I am getting confused. There is no ban on SL. There will be ban on SL. The minister’s office has confirmed there will be no ban on SL. The federal government, through the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, actually has an investment in SL in the form of ABC Island. The original story was pretty mcuh a furphy.
There are other problems with the rating system and with the Conroy filter (and Conroy is still a social conservative nutter) but I am not sure why we are still getting imminent doom comments about the ban that never was and will never be.
On 07.02.09 Prokofy Neva said:
I’m very glad the Australian government is regulating the Internet, social media, and virtual worlds and online games.
These are all the proper subject of government regulation in a liberal democratic civil society under the rule of law — which is the case for Australia.
I think it’s great that people can propose through the democratic, elected legislative process of representative government ideas for dealing with the huge number of challenges produced by the Internet, social media, and virtual worlds, given their huge capacity for destruction of economies, objective news, free speech, protection of minors, and morals.
These are all legitimate areas of democratic governments and have always been throughout time.
People who can make the case for the good uses of virtual worlds, or the extention of the protections of free speech affordable in democratic Australia ought to make those arguments through the liberal and democratic process of fact-based scientific peer-reviewed studies, parliamentary hearings, advocacy by interest groups, free media coverage, etc.
What they should not be advocating is that “Philip should get the electricity to Australia shut off unless they allow his hedonic nihilist game to play on their territory.”
That sort of thing opens up entire aveues of questioning about the true nature of virtual worlds and whether they are in fact sinister hijackers of legitimate and democratic sovereignty.
If, in the process of this democratic debate about something that only a proposal and a legislative draft about regulation of said virtual worlds, that the world of SL finds that it is banned from schools, let’s say, then those who found themselves in the minority, and felt that schools should be able to access BDSM clubs and other objectionable content inappropriate for age groups or mass audiences, will then have to concede that they “lost this one” and have to go back to lobbying for the right to everyone, including themselves, to be able to have the right to see, oh, I dunno, Joshua Nightshade swap spit with Pathfinder Linden. Or whatever it is they feel is edifying for the next generation.
We shouldn’t construe their loss in this particular democratic legislative battle to regulate virtual worlds to be “censorship” or “draconian control of the Internet” or the other things that hysterics have invoked, which only lets us know how discredited their cause is, as it has been false.
On 07.02.09 Gibson said:
G’Day, This is stupidity at its…
The last thing on my mind was whether or not i was hiding behind an anonymous entry. Just like http://www.ninemsn.com.au & Yahoo.com.au (forums & some articles ect), I am used to giving titles to the name, one could say it helps a little bit with expressions.. though as you know, words one paper are just that and can be harder to interpret.
I didnt realize this was a blog, assuming it was another article.. i came to this blog via a post and link sent in The Friggin Aussies group chat within SL and with seeing so much propaganda going around and everyone panicking i realized well someone has to sit back and think about it.
I did put in my email address as it is a requirement of posting on this page.. It doesnt concern me to much, though it was a suggestion that i thought the website might like to look into as most site/forums/blogs these days do offer such features. So my apology only for not taking a closer look at who or what this page is as i was more concerned about the article/articles themselves more so then the page.
Cheers & Have a Great Day
On 07.02.09 cube3 said:
agreed,
let a democratic representational system work its voodoo.
those who think , vr toys and virtual action figures and barbiedolls should be immune to debate or any thoughts beyond those of a few programmers in california, or their bankers are the true “insert insulting word”
forcing the reality of virtuality out into the light of day by democratic means is no problem.
it should be the norm, the fact its treated as abnormal, shows the true problems.
On 07.02.09 Gibson said:
My mistake as i believe it (the link to this page) could of been in/from the Friends Of The Pond Group (Re: The Telstra Sandbox).
[...] referred to the new dashboard, which I think is close to revolutionary but which seems otherwise to have elicited yawns (am I delusional about this or something? [...]
On 07.03.09 HatHead Rickenbacker said:
Pretty sure people’s RL identity on dating sites is protected by an alias until they chose to disclose it.
And you quickly reduce online dating to a looks only thing – what’s on your mind? I think people take RL photos on dating sites with a grain of salt.
I think this has potential and virtual worlds could make a great first date but then I am squatting on a web domain for the very same idea for a couple of years now.
HAHA – hardly my point really HH. I have to say, it’s not a bad idea but I’m fairly sure its been tried before…the big problem I think is that people go on a virtual date, why the hell would they then want to go out, spend $50 for a box of stale popcorn and a couple of movie tickets….isn’t reality just soooo disappointing after a day on the beach in SL for 50L?
Anyways – boot up the domain name, maybe the Lindens will buy you out.
Hi Dusan, I am sure it’s coincidence but the virtual date idea is something I proposed as an idea to a large dating agency over 18 months ago and then included in a guide we did about SL for a car manufacturer
I wrote about it here:
“A while back we posted on how our Vauxhall Corsa Guide could be used as the basis for practice dates in the virtual world Second Life.
“The idea was that Second Life dating could sit between getting to know someone on the phone, on IM or on email and actually meeting them face to face. We subsequently suggested this concept to a major dating site, putting forward the notion that they could offer a bespoke virtual service for their members.
“We proposed setting up a separate log-in site and orientation zone on Second Life for new avatars (characters), along with clothes, skins, accessories to choose from.
“Then, both parties would have had a kind of trial run, where they would have seen from their behaviour if they were compatible. And if they wanted to take it further, they could have then arranged a date in the real world – where, according to research from Stanford, they would actually have found each other better looking in the flesh if they selected ‘attractive’ avatars, thereby theoretically increasing the chances of a successful outcome!
“Overall it was designed to be a low risk, cheap and fun way to get to know someone before wasting three hours in a bar or restaurant constantly looking at the clock and desperately trying to fill dead air.”
Apart from the panic (I was not immune) the really interesting thing is how low SL’s profile really is and how high many of us think it is.
One respected Australian resident argued that Conroy was going after SL to make his regulatory proposals more acceptable to the senate. I searched the Senate Hansard and found zero, zip, nada mentions of SL in the debates. When I widened my search to the House of Representatives and parliamentary committees I did find a not very serious exchange some years ago in an estimates committee (a process for scrutinising the budget and the performance of government and semi-government agencies) where ABC Island came up and Conroy expressed some not very serious interest in the avatar name used by the ABC chief executive.
Estimates is a fairy brutal process where a minister can be before a committee for up to 12 hours at a stretch and they tend to get light-hearted very quickly when they get the chance. That is the totality of the parliament’s awareness of SL.
We are still a fairly small pond. We may even fit into Philip’s terrarium.
Dirk – Maybe it was your site where I first saw the idea, not sure. You know, the more I think about this, the more I realize that the idea does represent pretty much everything about SL that I believe – the integration of Web and virtual content, the ability to create meaningful experiences in the absence of face-to-face meetings, and the sort of liberating possibilities of imagination space.
I mean – forget about interests like “walks on the beach” or whatever – just choosing where to go in SL (through spotlight say) would be a way to learn a lot about someone, how they interact with others at a club or concert, or whatever.
And I have a golden rule: those who rez prims together, stay together. There’s something about sharing in the creative process that’s deeply emotional.
I can’t help thinking, then, what else this can be extended to – book clubs on Amazon maybe? Travel sites?
If they can actually make it so easy – to be able to insert widgets on social media sites, and keep plugging away at the log-in process….then seriously, they may be on to something significant here.
In my field (health) I can see widgets for patients. An information site on lymphoma (we manage one) with the ability for patients to meet up with each other to talk about their conditions.
Well…bottom line, Tom deserves more credit than I originally gave him, I just wish he hadn’t chosen dating as his use case.
This avenue was explored about a year ago under the stewardship, of Nik Hewitt,when he was with http://www.and.co.uk/,the VW connection was never quite reached but was a launchpad for many other projects
Virtual Dating: It’s happening already, without greedy Linden involvement.
——————-
As always, Linden Lab assumes that *everyone* wants this feature and/or everyone’s going to *want* this in the future.
For most (I hope), Second Life is just another recreational hobby (like actual MMORPGs) – I seriously doubt hobbysts would want to link their public identity with their virtual one.
Here is an interesting paper by some psychologists showing that virtual-world dates have promise. From the abstract:
Online dating, a practice where singles visit a website to locate other singles, frequently fails to meet users’ expectations. We suggest that this disappointment is due in part to online dating websites’ failure to simulate face-to-face interactions, an essential component of the acquaintanceship process. We document users’ general disappointment with online dating (Study 1) and their disappointment with specific dates arranged through an online dating website (Study 2). In Study 3 we introduce the Virtual Date, on which potential dating partners explore a virtual environment in an interaction analogous to a real first date (such as going to a museum), a pre-meeting intervention that led to greater liking after meetings had occurred (during speed-dates) than standard online dating.
I agree with you, Dusan, that this new dashboard is the start of a major — and important — development in bridging the gap between SL and the rest of the Web. One of the educational institutions in SL, the TLE Educational Network, has been working toward this for a while, believing that only full integration will fulfill the potential of Second Life. Here’s one of the blog posts about their work: TLE Begins Building Conduit Between SL and Facebook
On 07.06.09 Linda Truong said:
It’s already happened, I verified my age and everything is there, but I cannot access any adult areas.
When I do it crashes the whole SL Client, if I try to login from last location it screws up and crashes until I tell it to go to a PG area…
The focus is on voice, the 3D world being the social gathering space.
There’s some community management, as well as RL gatherings, but so far, the service hasn’t really succeeded in attracting a strong user base.
In Australia the transcripts of what is said in Parliament are known as “Hansard”. Senator Conroy’s specific answer to the question about blocking (not banning – blocking access) can be read here:
Page 95 (PDF page 109), Scott Ludlam, Question 1496.13: “Will computer games exceeding the requirements of the MA15+ classification be RC and potentially blocked by ISPs on a mandatory basis for adults; if not, what other exceptions to RC would be similarly permitted.”
Page 96 (PDF page 110), Stephen Conroy’s Answer: “Computer games that exceed an MA15+ rating are deemed to be RC content as there is no R18+ or X18+ rating. RC content will be included in the mandatory filtering of RC content under the Government’s proposal. Issues relating to the classification of computer games fall within the Attorney-General’s portfolio.
[...] frustration or a comment on humanity, or Linden Lab, or the Grid, or all of it. But Light Waves made prim magic, and it moved me, it made me want to somehow combine the creative impulse with the rest of my life [...]
Virtual World technologies are being adopted by more DOD agencies and contractors every week. This video clearly outlines some of the advantages for virtual prototyping and training in these environments. The presence of defense-oriented agencies in SL and other Virtual Worlds should produce the positive side benefit of improved security for these platforms, something that is needed for widespread business adoption.
On 07.08.09 c3 said:
long tails.. short expense accounts.
a decade redux.
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » Benefits and Uses of Second Life by the US Navy [...]
On 07.09.09 Caliburn Susanto said:
The way I see it people who are creative and jazzed by the 3-D world opportunity get into an “if you build it then they will come” frame of mind, mixed with an “and they will appreciate what we’ve (or I’ve) done and will toss us some donations” expectation.
The problems begin when they realize that 99.5% of the thousands who visit their region have no intention of contributing a single penny, let alone helping them meet the horrific relentless tier costs. They just want it for free, they think they are entitiled to it for free.
Eventually the novelty wears off and the resentment toward all those freeloaders using the space to amuse themselves without paying gets tiresome. Artistic enthusiasm doesn’t last forever, eventually somebody has to cough up all that dough. So they pack up and split.
Has happened over and over to date and will continue to happen. If you don’t charge admission or don’t generate revenue with sales or rentals you are going in the hole. People will never pay for what they can take from you for nothing.
[...] Benefits and Uses of Second Life By the US Navy – Dusan Writer [...]
On 07.09.09 Corcosman Voom said:
“try very hard not to blame anyone else if something goes wrong”
Good advice, Dusan. As an observer – not a business person – it appears to take a unique idea and lots of hard work to make any operation inside any grid a paying proposition.
The public collaborative aspects of Second Life constitute the exciting, novel, rapidly expanding juvenile niche that is Second Life. The use of this platform for closed, secret, government, military or corporate purposes is just that — the use of the platform, not the promising global village square that is the true emergent property associated with this technology.
On 07.09.09 Metacam Oh said:
Corcosman, you are exactly right. The unfortunate part of that though is that most people will invest thousands and then find that out the hard way. SL is still marketed and seen as the place where you can make money, and it’s just not that true, there are a very small handful of people actually withdrawing real money worth noting.
Even some people make money in ponzi/pyramid schemes, but does that make it legal? Some people made money in the Madoff scam, same question.
The real question is whether or not Linden Lab is a giant ponzi scheme. Sure you CAN make money, but only if 95% of the population LOSES money. All the money flows nicely up to the top of pyramid
Hell you even have to pay a fee to Linden just to withdraw money. To add to that, they are receiving over 1000 USD a month per server they use due to the fact that they split Sims, 4 per server. That’s highway robbery if you ask me.
There will be a time where that price has no choice but to come down.
But, is Linden Lab a ponzi. I’d like someone with more intelligence than myself to take a deeper look.
And I believe we all have a future in SL and what ever other VWs can link to and build on the large growing network of avatars/people. Community is all, stand-alone is a lose/lose proposition.
On 07.09.09 Caliburn Susanto said:
I was having a discussion with a friend early in my Second Life about the ridiculously high cost of “land” in-world and making note of the fact that we not only purchase the servers FOR Linden Labs (servers cost them nothing, only leasing space for the server racks upon racks and, of course, bandwidth) but then we pay through-the-nose monthly for the privilege of being allowed access to the server we “bought.” And when we leave, they keep it all and “sell” it again.
His only comment was, “So what you’re saying is we are all just suckers.”
And my answer was (and still is) yes, but WILLING suckers … for now.
@Metacam, you might be interested in this article on Second Life’s Ponzi-ness.
His conclusion? “No, SecondLife is a classic pyramid scheme. Or, more of an Amway-like pyramid: partially legitimate, partially ponzi.”
On 07.09.09 Anonymus-Not said:
I hope the guy would eventually learn some anatomy and hand-drawing because the tied angel statue on Black Swan was more than hilarious and the ballerina had masculine face. So quite a lol after all.
On 07.09.09 c3 said:
no big surprise in his 2007 “pyramid” article since AMWAY itself via its “new” names and business shells came into SL to “mall franchise” during the hype of 2006.
just more fodder for the virtual economy of the real world and the slow realization that the virtualization of money has run its course.
any real economist will tell you money is only about “trust” and that systems that by nature, dont offer “trust” cant offer any actual virtualizations of money- aka an economy.
so much for casanova and metanomicons.;) EVE has a economist on staff, dosent it? and the latest run of its bank by a medical paying dad playing a “pirate” certianly put all that “virtualization” of others peoples money and time into clear perspective.
Las Vegas casino have economists too, right?>
Anyhow, Rezzables story is nothing new from the internet and 15 years of its virtualization dreams and falsehoods.
On 07.10.09 Metacam Oh said:
I think the thing we learned is now, artist people like Rezzable need to learn how to be greedy fucks.
C3 – um, ok. Glad to have your continual reminders of stuff that happened 15 years ago. I’m not sure I entirely agree with your virtualization of money comment, because I’m not entirely sure what you’re saying. You have that cryptic way about you hahaha.
In any case, ‘pyramid’ post to follow, feels like a good one for the weekend.
Metacam – I disagree. Artists are a different story. Rezzable was clearly a business, not a patron of the arts, although it happened to provide patronage as part of its wider business model.
There were artists working for Rezzable, and Rezzable supported art on its sims. But Rezzable was a business first and its the business side of what its doing that’s the issue at hand.
On 07.10.09 cube3 said:
yes. well im not paid to answer any questions in blogs:)
and Im either a Yogi Berra or an Einstein in my comments..lol..Prok and You all can decide.
suggest you watch “The Ascent of Money” on PBS….”virtualization” becomes more of a history lesson after a view than any metablogs futurism;)
Also why not look up PONZI… he fed on his own, as did Madoff, as does the SF tech valley types. But as the virtualization of Money went more and more “electric” and digital the collatoral damage that could be done in the shortest accelerated time became larger and larger.
What will also be obvious to many soon, 15 years late, is that Artists/ IP creators need to own tools and own their works. Almost NONE of the current Virtualization of 3d, storage, or media has that in mind. Either control is being taken away by large investment corporations via “service medias growth meme”, or by “free” content metachildren “meme” that are of course funded by the large vested financial interests anyway.
Banks virtualized money- and now they own all the land- property- and even your cars;)
Google and others are virtualizing IP, and who do you think will own it all by 2050.?
Rezzable learned what Protozoa and others;) did 15 years ago. – google it, before google decides to remove the past listings– they can do that you know;)
BTW- as yourself- what will be left of this blog in 15 years?
“Immersive disorder”? I asked your question on SLED: nil response. Google: nada. Pubmed: quoted phrase not found. Sounds like a neologism. If anyone attends, please enlighten and use terms the lay-person can understand.
I thought psychology was the study of human/animal behavior, not environments (immersive or otherwise).
What’s an “immersive environment”? Is a swimming pool an immersive environment? (People immerse themselves in swimming pools.)
Does this have anything to do with virtual worlds?
Virtual worlds are certainly an interesting place to study human behavior. After all, they’re populated by humans behaving like humans.
On 07.12.09 AmandaReal said:
First shrinks, then who? Cops?
On 07.13.09 Prokofy Neva said:
I hope to God that the new viewer will be closed source. That would be a real victory for common sense and business pragmatism and also put an end to all these screwy hacked viewers that are used both to grief and to confuse newbies. In fact, maybe LL could say, “Go on using all those hacked screwy viewers if you like, but if you want X or Y feature, it will only be in this new viewer.” A lot of things went wrong when the Lindens caved to the opensource thuggery and opensourced their viewer. They could set it right by closing up the next one.
Of course, closing up the viewer could be accompanied by increased moves to formalize and “legalize” content creation by residents to the point that amateur content will be heavily discouraged if not outlawed.
Dusan, I count on you to be one of the few smart people in SL. So when you say that you “stayed in SL for Svarga and Starax,” I have to grimace.
Starax is wonderful and all that, but…it’s kitsch. It’s Disney’s fantasia. His earlier years were better. The Black Swan thing, that looked like a lot of poured tar for my money, was hideous. I kept looking in the sky and the water for this other cool thing that he supposedly made — never saw it. My recollection of Starax was him throwing a tantrum and leaving SL because the Lindens broke his famous wand — but then not returning even when they fixed it, and coming back on a secretive alt that only seemed to serve to make his statues insanely priced on the market of resales.
Svarga? I’ve written reams about the essential socialist claptrap around Svarga, and this manipulative posture that Lauk has taken time and again saying “the community” or “the Lindens” must “save Svarga,” but then…winds up selling it. Or saying she’ll sell it, but not with the scripts.
I used to be a huge fan of Lauk’s. No more, for all the reasons I’ve outlined in my blogs about her posturing around the land sales in Orwood and with Svarga. But…take it on its own merits. What’s the big deal? It has artwork that is matched or exceeded by Straylight and other natural sims — and Straylight makes tons of money,most likely, for its creator. There is absolutely no reason why Svarga couldn’t have had way more content sales, much more advertising, and more tier paid. It was only ideology that hobbled it.
It is absolutely NOT imperative to have the Lindens preserve it. They should do no such thing. People that stubbornly refuse to engage even in a non-profit style business plan that helps cover costs and sustain the creativity deserve scorn, not another coin in the hat passed. I never “got” what was so fabulous about the AI, either. It’s not as if there aren’t other groups working on AI and making creatures and flowers realistic, too. The world has turned on its axis since Lauk and Starax, the beta-era oldbies, came and conquered. There are new creators doing as wonderful work and even more interesting work, so it’s time to thank them for their services, write an encyclopedia page on them, and move on.
As for Rezzable — meh. I’ve said my piece on that bog and my own blog. I keep asking what will happen to all those artists the led on and kept paid for quite a while and now will suddenly dump.
Again, I don’t know what you are talking about, intellectually, Dusan, and critically. Disney, all over again. The Borrowers Meets Toy Story. It’s a scene that reduces you, the viewer, to a, well, audience, not an interactive part. Nothing to click on, hardly. Nothing to buy. Not even a t-shirt readily available to take home unless you figure out to TP to the sky. These people sit on traffic and don’t provide the basic gift store that a RL museum would have to cover its rent. It’s disgraceful. It’s disgraceful not because it’s amateurish or bad business, that could almost be forgiven, but because it’s ideological. Rezzable joined the big Chris Anderson Free train. Give everything away for free…except charge sometimes…except sell a perfume ad…except wait for a lecture fee. Oops, Chris Anderson can get lecture fees to sustain his lifestyle as he goes around evangelizing “Free,” but Rezzable’s Himoff couldn’t likely get his way paid to appear on a VW conference somewhere.
Again — frustrating sims. Cliches. Junkyards. Urban post-apocalypse. Carnivals of doom. To be sure, things like Toxic Gardens had a lot of punch to them. But…Himoff was hugely reluctant to rent out a single thing, even an ad board or store. Insane. You cannot have land in SL and not develop it for rent or resale. it is a brutal fact. It also creates sterility when you never interact with other businesses.
As for those whining about the expense of Linden servers and whining that we help the Lindens buy servers, I can only reiterate what i say to all such whiners: they are not just servers. They are such stuff as dreams are made of. All the interactivity, the content of others, the serendipity — that is what you pay for. Understanding it as mere rack space is the sort of nerdy literalism that people in SL, even tekkie wikinistas, should have left behind by now.
And that brings us to OpenSim. Huh? Why do you think OpenSim is where it’s at? No one ever reports anything happening in OS because…it doesn’t. It is a lot of people playing in their garages…
Google — the ad agency that provides search as a loss-leader — already owns a lot of stuff and you won’t have to wait 50 years.
I need to do a little digging. Open source licenses completely confuse me. I was thinking about the way the SL viewer includes components that are closed – the sound library, for example. I’m wondering if there’s a way to release the new viewer with “base code” that’s open source, but plug-ins that are closed. I wonder this, because I wonder whether you can put the genie back in the bottle so to speak – like you say, whether they can release the viewer with components that you can’t copy, that are proprietary. It sounds really messy to me however.
I wonder if this explains Snowglobe – a shift to a closed, or more closed viewer, while Philip continues to support an open source version of the “old viewer”.
By the way, don’t get me wrong about Svarga. It was one of the reasons I stayed because it was the first sim I ever visited that was a fully built environment that was ‘professional’. Up until then, all I had seen was mainland and a few immersion sims like Midian I think, the Hobo place, but I didn’t realize that the content in SL could look as good as a game, say. Svarga seemed like a fully built, professionally done sim with a narrative potential that I hadn’t seen anywhere else.
Having said that, the “ecosystem” thing they had going confused me – I didn’t see the flowers growing and bees pollinating or whatever they were supposed to be doing, I kept thinking maybe it wasn’t working. However, what I did see was that you could build out a full environment with narrative potential. I was left stumped, however, by the business model but at the time I didn’t care.
I don’t disagree that it was Disney-ish, same with Greenies. On the other hand, I am a believer that there’s room in the world for curated experiences, and that there’s funding available for such experiences. Greenies and Black Swan and Svarga were all curated experiences, but….well, no one seemed to be paying for them, or I couldn’t figure out how paying for them was leading to revenue.
Until there is no acceptable speech recognition, keyboard stay here.
Gestures and touch screens are useless for computer use.
You can play stupid games and make simple navigation out of gestures/touches but that’s all.
And machines are way far from being able to understand even a half-sentence if it’s arbitrary like ‘hey, open second life and log me in while i’m out in the kitchen.’.
Maybe you should rather re-program people to speak in computer-understandable way.
As for keyboards, you should rather make vertical keyboards and mice (see google for existing products) to preserve your hand’s health. Oh, you can’t see the nice led displays then…
I tried to comment on both of the two sites where this press release/event notice is posted and both sites fouled up in either processing my registration or when attempting to post a comment. I could not find the phrase “immersive disorder” anywhere else. (But I’m sure my husband thinks I suffer from it)
What I am most concerned about personally is the sad plight of those who suffer from “immersive dyslexia” and so are forever challenged to understand the vibrant experience the rest of us have in virtual worlds.
[...] of economist Edward Castranova’s second book, Exodus to the Virtual World (read my commentary here). In that book, Castranova argued that virtual worlds are both fun, and that they can manipulated [...]
Troy – As best I understand it the group is affiliated with the Immersive Education Group. Unfortunately, I don’t have the full release on hand, but that’s who it was sent by.
On 07.13.09 LMAO said:
Maybe i should create a magical rock that is the cure for an inworld addiction? or maybe a river that you drink from giving your avatar the power to fix your real life problems (re: Addiction to SL).. and then make a business out of that and say..
Heck. I already came across councilors in world that know how to tell others how to fix themselves yet do the very things wrong with themself… lmao…
Is there going to be an addiction to business in SL next? we want you to stop making money and give your business to us because your to addicted to it.. rotfl….
Sorry.. lol.. My point of view is its all in how you think and other influences around you to what you do, say and think. Im talkin in the real world not in SL.
[...] had me re-thinking what it takes to build a business in Second Life, or maybe it was more the comments on my post, most of which seemed to express one of two thoughts: “yeah, it was never clear what Rezzable [...]
Great post, I generally agree with your conclusions. Will be interesting to see how SL business and cross platform business perform over time, what solutions there will be created. I hold my beliefs very firmly – that lots of change is coming to this field, and some of the most effective business models in Virtual worlds are not yet to surface…
I might make a smartass or dismissive comment as well, but when I read “The SLunkie Factor” I saw some very familiar characteristics that I have seen played out by others before.
In particular, one friend I met in SL who I came to like very much. I used to have breakfast while seeing him every morning, we had a lot of laughs. He created one an avatar that seemed to express more charm and personality that most. He created several clever and successful businesses. But then there were increasingly long absences, and then he was gone.
I worried that something was dreadfully wrong in RL. Previously, he had some health problems, so I wondered if he was seriously ill. Maybe he was in jail. Not knowing nagged at me and I felt helpless. I kept pushing and eventually I was able to get my email address to him so I we could communicate.
When he explained his reason for leaving SL, it was similar to the “SLunkie” syndrome. SL was interfering with his life, he tried to find ways to re-balance, and finally decided he had to leave.
I am sure a lot of variants and other factors can come into play to create situations where a person’s use of SL unbalances their life to the point where it becomes detrimental. What Dusan outlines in the working group’s agenda seems to be a useful place to understand the psychology dynamics of virtual worlds and our lives.
Lots of insights and interesting considerations in this post.
On 07.14.09 DK said:
Hmm, this is interesting. It reminds me of Interactive Fiction (IF). Few people have even heard of it, but there is a very large community under the radar that plays IF. Its a bit like reading, but with some gaming elements woven into stories. It still attracts people, but mostly, the community meets on its own private network, called (ifMUD)
Its a bit like Second Life, though not really. Similar in purpose, and detail, but vastly different in nature. The ifMUD doesn’t have any graphics. Yet I wonder if both communities will dissolve into its separate parts.
Yet, social/task groups are united for: being social, and tasks, so it wouldn’t seem like they would disconnect, but just the thought of it seems scary to me.
On 07.15.09 Gina Schreck said:
We do our weekly BYTE-SIZED learning event in SL on Wednesdays at 9am (PT) and our goal is to show those in business and learning how to push the envelope of creativity to help people learn. Today we look at ways to stay marketable and relevant into days job market. Lots of interaction- not your momma’s PowerPoint presentation!
Before you leave, thank Cecilia Delacroix for paying the tier for more than two years by walking through her art and photography museums which surround Fallingwater.
For anyone who is keenly interested in architectural replications in Second Life there are other FLW buildings like this one. Virtual tours are very instructive.
On 07.15.09 Dusty Artaud said:
For rich environments that are easy to navigate I would recommend:
If an event was going on, like this weekend’s RfL, I’d take them there as it would tick so many boxes. Creativity, community, inworld business, nonprofits …. and not a flying penis in sight! I’d steer clear of something that was very resident orientated and laggy, like the Hair Fair – they would come to that in their own good time.
I’d then build something around their interests and their needs, with a couple of drop jaw places (such as The Galaxy, the Isle of Wyrms, the airships of New Babbage or Steam Sky City in Caledon (all powerful communities). Maybe a good example of real life/Second Life integration – such as the NHS/Imperial College sims, Orange Island, the Dresden Art Museum, IBM. Maybe a university – Edinburgh, Princeton – or a smaller college with some educators who are passionate about SL. Nonprofit Commons or Better World Island to show how Nonprofits are using SL.
And I’m sure my list could be taken by other people with the same criteria and completely different results.
But, to be honest, the places aren’t going to matter as much as the people. Line up the people who use these places and let them speak …
On 07.15.09 Riven Homewood said:
Here’s where I’d take someone: SS Galaxy, Victoria City in Caledon, the H. G. Wells Memorial Library in Caledon Wellsian, Talis Science Fiction Portal on Info Island, a ride on the Steeltopia Trolley, the Port Harbor Pier in Steelhead, Seacliff, Virtual Harlem, HealthInfo Island, someplace where people are dancing
Actually, one hour of Grace McDunnough’s Musimmersion is the first thing that came to mind.
-ls/cm
On 07.15.09 Roland Francis said:
Adding to Saffia’s constructive posting, SL’s diversity simply cannot be summarized with a one hour in-world presentation. It would -at best- be a well picked slice of a pie of flavors, where I can only underline Saffia’s suggestion to let the people of those places speak from their focal point.
If you aim to impress your guest with a general impression as in “the best of its domain”, there are some good sources out there: first of all, you could read Amanda Lindens twitter and blog, called workinginworld, added with some great tips from this thread and have a critical look at http://www.b-places.com, the most neutral and wide spread voting system of sl (where you still have to filter out the manipulated voting sims).
In summary, I would advise to categorize your trip and pick your best examples of each category and its specific added value, mirrored to what might be of real interest to your invitee.
On 07.15.09 Holocluck Henly said:
I would take them to the 7 Days Bakery as a great first impression, a walk through Caledon & New Paris. If they have a desire to build I would definitely include the Ivory Tower of Prims. For mainland I would start at the Bayjou in Bay City and fly them in a plane/blimp/rocket/etc over Route 66 (hopefully overtaking the Trolley), over the channel, past the AMORD building and Nova Albion to visit the Photo Studio of Grignano as an example of Mainland at its finest.
Every single person interested in content creation should be dragged (forcibly if necessary) to Drowsy to see exactly what they’re aspiring to. The place is simply stunning visually, creatively and technically.
Dusan, thanks for pointing out the information about writing and Second Life from my blog. I think one reason SL is so appealing is that it requires no time or travel expense to instantly connect with authors you want to meet in person, or to introduce your writing to a much larger audience. Published authors’ use of SL as a stop on a book tour is definitely on the increase.
I’d take ‘em to the Shelter—friendly place to hang out.
On 07.15.09 Riven Homewood said:
It’s also occurred to me that what this particular person is interested should be considered. Somebody who wants to design clothes, somebody who wants to build houses, a Star Trek buff, a nurse, a university professor — each would probably find different areas of sl interesting. These is such a wide variety of experiences available!
Great suggestions everyone! And absolutely – the NUMBER ONE thing is people. Thankfully, he is well connected to that idea – that it’s the people that make a technology what it is. In fact, if I were to recommend ONE thing to anyone as a way of understanding SL it would probably be a live music event – it shows you the richness of the platform and is an immediate way to connect with others, and to get a sense of how amazing the people in SL can be.
In this particular case, I suppose the broader point I want to make is “this is a world that supports a wide range of activities” (but please don’t forget that it’s the connections and serendipity that makes it what it is).
Any more suggestions keep ‘em coming.
I’ll add my own to the list and report back to everyone on what we ended up seeing, the response and will let you know who it is (I didn’t want to post a name without permission).
Maybe visit the tsunami simulation on NOAA’s first sim, named Meteora. It’s in the southeast corner. Just click the sign on the beach until the water recedes, then click it again and watch as the giant wave washes in and destroys all the buildings.
From there, you can explore the SciLands (the continent where the NOAA sims are located).
[...] Second Life Tour – Where Would You Go Today? [...]
On 07.16.09 Prokofy Neva said:
I always laugh when I see people getting all agog over rewarmed 1970s secular humanist dreck like Maslow. Many people, whatever their obvious organic and mental self-interests, in fact putting something higher on their pyramid of needs — a sense of something higher (like God) or a feeling tht they belong to some higher purpose (a social or political cause) or belong to a group (geeks). While you could try to pretend any of those things are about “self-actualization,” if you are intellectually honest, you won’t play that game. They aren’t. They are about in fact restraining, or lessening the self for something that ultimately provides some greater sense of worth.
The “Belonging” part doesn’t really belong as a middle goal with “self” at the top for many people. Belong is more important than self in many, many cases, especially for people in situations like — being a teenager, being a partner in a relationship, being a worker in a company, etc. etc. which they encounter throughout life or daily.
This very incomplete “hierarchy of needs” just does not explain everything there is to explain about human beings, nor does it even explain the priorities of every secular humanist who might find some justification for invoking it. As such, it dumbs down thought by trying to get people to shoe-horn themselves into some really inadequate template.
Hamlet nee Linden Au is fascinated with this template because for him, it’s comforting and he likes it as a theory. It passes for deep intellectual thought for him, and he thinks it’s thrilling that a nightclub owner (Jenna Fairplay) could invoke it in a virtual world. He returns to this big “journalistic find” again and again as he thinks it’s a fabulous insight. But it’s just…tedious. Hamlet’s thinking never seems to have gotten much past a few books he has read in college, if that.
As for everything else you’re writing about the virtual economy, you’re making the classic mistake that every tekkie seems to make in looking at this too literally, and in obsessing too much about the fact that prims replicate easily and freely.
And that is: attention.
Attention is the greatest scarcity there is in a virtual world and online in general. In real life, attention to organic needs are more basic and there are more duties calling — indeed these are all the things that pull you “AFK” away from the online world.
But online, attention is scarce. I might have a limitless ability to keep putting on new outfits, but nobody but me might see them. There are only so many friends with so many attention spans who can see them. Same for cars or houses or any accessories — and the same for trying to advertise them, or trying to do anything, profit or non-profit or educational or entertaining in SL — attention.
People sift through a huge amount of stuff and make conscious or random or accidental choices and the economy lives or dies on this.
I’m slightly confused as to where we disagree, other than perhaps your interpretation that I subscribe to Maslow. I quite clearly said in my post that I have issues with Maslow’s hierarchy.
But never mind that. Because basically much of your assessment is in line with my own. In my post I propose that successful business models in SL evolve, often from a grounding in an object economy, and then moving into the domains of management systems (vendors, land rental systems), environments (themed sims and events), branding (”Caledon” as a brand), and finally the extrapolation of content into other media (blogs, youTube machinima, etc).
What you describe reinforces my belief that it’s not sufficient to be in the “Victorian Chair” business – you need to evolve past that into environments, community, branding etc.
I also fairly clearly made the point that land is a key driver of the SL economy because it provides a counterpoint to the lack of scarcity for virtual goods – because land is not infinite, and yet virtual goods CAN be infinite, you end up with a dynamic coupling of one thing which is scarce, and one thing which is less so.
I also make the point that even if virtual objects are NOT scarce, you still benefit through the use of distribution and management tools, environments, and branding.
So, I’m not sure I see the disagreement, other than I used that damned pyramid when I could have used concentric circles or something.
Where I strongly disagree, however, is in the comment you made on my blog about “attention”. There’s a lot of mindless clap trap out there by the pseudo-marketers about “attention” and I hate to advance their cause. They’re trying to disguise business models that don’t have any foundation and using the “attention” argument inadvertently supports what I believe Rezzable was after, or was the main basis of their “business model”.
You commented:
“Attention is the greatest scarcity there is in a virtual world and online in general. In real life, attention to organic needs are more basic and there are more duties calling — indeed these are all the things that pull you “AFK” away from the online world.”
You also said that I made the mistake of tekkie literalists.
Give me a break. There’s nothing tekkie literalist about it – I’m an ad man, if you will, and like any ad man, I’d look at a world with more blue jeans than we know what to do with and I’d propose that you either put them in a nicer store, create a brand around them that’s worth more than the literal product, or find distribution channels that no one else is tapping. What’s so tekkie about that exactly?
In any case, the error in talking about “attention” as a driving factor in how we think about business models is that it subscribes to the drivel out there about an “attention economy”. Frankly, it’s a load of crap. It’s the same thing as “aggregating eyeballs” just with different window dressing.
I mean really – what’s advertising? Or selling products? You can’t just MAKE the thing, you need to get someone to buy it. And sales and marketing is fairly simple and it goes like this:
Look at me!
Aren’t I pretty!
Buy me!
Now, I subscribe to getting people’s attention, but only within the “Dusan’s Master Paradigm for Success” – yes, you need to get people attention, but it needs to then communicate a positive value, and it needs to end in a transaction.
All this noise about an attention economy is focused on the fact that it’s harder and harder to get people to look at you. And so entire businesses are being built around the erroneous idea that what you REALLY need to solve is the “look at me” conundrum and somehow the “aren’t I pretty/buy me” stuff will take care of itself.
And isn’t that really what Rezzable tried to do? They tried to get your attention. They tried to look real pretty once they had it. But they forgot about the “buy me” thing, except in a half-hearted way…somehow, they had this idea if they could crack the first two parts, the ‘buy me’ part would follow.
Sounds a lot like Twitter. Or youTube. Or Facebook.
They all figure they can continue to generate lots of attention in this attention economy you’re talking about. And yeah, maybe they’ll be able to tack a business model on to the back end of it, but none of them were built with an actual, well, PLAN for how that would happen, and so the success in the “buy me” part of the equation isn’t guaranteed.
Maybe Rezzable had a plan. Something like “look at me, aren’t I pretty, now someone ELSE buy me (or fund me) and figure out how we could have made money at this.”
So bottom line, I just don’t subscribe to this “attention economy” meme – I subscribe to the idea of getting people’s attention towards the goal of eliciting a transaction of some kind, and in my old school world, that’s called advertising.
Everything else is just an excuse for people to spend lots of money trying to get your attention, with the faint hope that once they have it they’ll be able to convert that into something more meaningful than your time.
Now, I believe I built this idea of attention into the constraining and enabling factors for SL business. Without better social tools, with audience limitations (sim limits), and with lack of access to channels (other than a select few, such as MOTD), there is a constraint on your ability to reach people and to get their attention.
The rest of the attention is built into the model itself – the tools for managing stuff, the environments for keeping people somewhere, and the brands for making sure your message is louder than the next guy. But again, none of it works unless you have some land to sell or some things to sell at the end of that long process, otherwise you’re Black Swan with a tip jar.
Having said all that, I think this is an interesting discussion, because it strikes me that you propose something that’s very much at the heart of SL – it takes careful craft….it’s an artisan economy, and yet we’re seeing a subtle shift towards mass market tools, and I wonder what that will mean in the long run, and how far the Lab plans to take us as they march in that direction.
So it’s OK to grab a copy and go make my own copy of the Greenies sim?
On 07.20.09 Feline said:
I’ll wait and see what is actually released before I pass judgment on how I think this reflects on Rezzable as an organization… but at first blush, it does seem a bit like a tenant vacating a property and intentionally vandalizing the place on the way out.
Thanks for the justification Rezzable. Never before has there been such an urgent justification for LL to post a policy that open source contributions will enter via the Snowglobe project and that any further non LL compiled system is allowed to access the Second Life Grid. This has been needed for a long time and now it is time to close the door and let the rippers go have a ball on their ripper grids ripping one another off.
On 07.20.09 Ann Otoole said:
That is to say:
and that any further non LL compiled system is no longer allowed to access the Second Life Grid.
rationale is more like, why punish the people that need useful tools because a few people will misuse them.
@ Ann — not really sure that LL can be any more successful in blocking content ripping — justified or not — than the music industry has been with stopping music being copied without payment.
I guess I’m not entirely surprised at that kind of thinking and yet I’m always a little puzzled to see it proffered. “Everyone else is doing it!”
Rezzable is asking for donations if they release the source code and will charge for a “pro” version. Would it be a stretch to assume that if someone copies and distributes their “pro” version, that also wouldn’t be adding any evil to the world? Could this tool be used to grab an entire Rezzable sim from Opensim? No additional evil there, right? (I’m not suggesting anyone do that of course.)
I know that copying stuff at both an object and sim-wide level has been technically possible for quite a while now. However, it seems to me as if they’re flipping Linden Lab (and its content creators) the bird on the way out the door.
Whether rezzable intends harm or not, my honest opinion is that if they really cared, they would have done ownership checks in the app. OTOH, with open source, someone could always disable that. So if the tool is being released as open source, there’s really little point in doing the work to code that in.
My honest opinion? They have a beef with LL and want to force LL’s hand on pricing, etc. My further honest opinion? I never saw how they were going to make money with all those pretty sims and no revenue model. You can blame LL for your problems all you want, but not having a realistic plan (at least as far as anyone I know could see) for those pretty builds to make money is no one’s fault but your own.
OTOH, LL has borked permissions so that it’s possible for content creators to package their items in such a way that they have permissions they didn’t intend. A lot of it is content creators not understanding how permissions on objects in avatar or object inventory work, but that’s because LL made it totally non-obvious. People are in an outcry about that, and about copybot, but I wonder how many people will get upset about this, which can give people some of the same capability to hoist the works of others?
Anyone who’s been in OpenLife even a couple times has seen things that they’ve seen in SL, and chances are it wasn’t from the same creators either. The question is, is not giving a damn the wrong attitude, or is thinking anything can or should be done to stop it the right attitude? Obviously an SL economy can’t function if people can’t control the rights and means of distribution and sale of their goods.
Rezzable’s model is not based on the sale of goods (they tried that and failed, as far as I can tell). You have conflicting motives on all sides of an issue that really has no good solutions. But people do tend to care more about issues that affect their own bottom line. Rezzable won’t lose with this, because they don’t sell content in SL. Will some people who do sell content in SL lose control of how their creations are ported around to other virtual worlds? Possibly. Even probably. The question is, should Rezzable be the focal point of anger over it, or should this be something that LL and the open source platforms get more serious about working on together?
On 07.20.09 radar said:
Cliff notes version for those slow on the uptake: I’m not suggesting above that Rezzable is evil. This is a problem bigger than rezzable and their “move your stuff the lazy way” tool. What I am saying is that they probably don’t really care about the impact to SL or any SL content creators at this point, even if they don’t believe there will be any or much.
On 07.20.09 Victoria said:
Regardless of intent…the perception is Rezzable are indeed *flipping the bird* to other developers, agencies and home grown creators who are working within the restrictions of the Second Life platform and bearing the cost impacts in filing DMCA / proceedings to protect their copyright when missued.
Regardless, I know (for a fact) to add the controls required to check creator is not a major piece of development to add to this and the PR nightmare that is about to start for Rezzable goes away.
Risk/Reward discussion needed internally I suspect.
Continue down the path they way, perception remains not just within world, but with fellow agencies who are agnostic to platform but care about community.
Let’s put it this way we wouldn’t place business Rezzable’s way with this disregard for community (I am sure the twitter wires will be burning too).
I remember the wicked, frantic panic that swept the grid when the original “copybot” was released into the wild. At least that one isn’t so easy to use. And in not being so easy to use it keeps honest people honest.
What this will do is to unleash the “copybot” into the open and it will spread like California wildfires. /me sighs. Well, I suppose it’s a good thing I maintain my creations on a mainland sim. I suspect this thing might not work on Linden-owned and managed regions, but that’s just conjecture on my part.
Personally, I take it all in stride. First, my stuff has to be good enough to even be interesting enough for anyone to want to copy it at all.
Meh.
On 07.20.09 Prokofy Neva said:
I find this a total outrage, and I find the cynical and nihilistic position of Rezzable, which we’ve seen many times before, to be an outright crime here.
Indeed they are evil, and indeed they are a disgruntled tenant vandalizing the place, but what’s more, vandalizing other tenants who previously had no beef with them, or even knowledge of them in many cases, whatever their belief in their own popularity and right to set policy by diktat.
It’s the same mentality that goes into terrorism.
Of course, one can provide the quintessential Mom’s answer to the whine that “but maaaaaa, everybody’s doing it” “If your friends told you to jump off a bridge, would you do it?” but here, the cynics don’t care if everybody jumps off a bridge.
The reality is that even Adam Zaius, who presided over the reverse-engineering and re-engineering of Second Life into OpenSim, was not so cynical or nihilist. He did not release the code and posted a statement that it would be misused, so he would not.
All this time, we’ve heard a hundred times that Second Inventory would never be a problem because it would never copy prims for which someone didn’t have rights.
I utterly repudiate the idea that “just because you can” and “just because there’s an analog hole” that you are entitled to copyright theft. You aren’t on the Internet, where “print screen” or “right click/save as copy” defeats copyright routinely, and you are not in virtual worlds, either.
Despicable, and amounting to industrial espionage and sabotage.
A few points that needs to be made here:
- Rezzable has NOT released this. They are asking for suggestions on how to release it.
- I WANT the ability to back up my sim. And hey, unless you have been living under a rock, it is already possible to copy just about everything, whether you own the perms or not.
- Dusan, I think the Napster analogy is an interesting one. I recall one Wired mag article back when the whole issue was getting underway talking about how it would be easier to get the toothpaste back in the toothpaste tube than to stop Napster.
So, BuilderBot is a piece of heaven or evil. How can it be made more heavenly?
On 07.20.09 ichabod Antfarm said:
So now there is the adult grid, the teen grid, and, what is rapidly becoming more apparent, the petulant adolescent grid which is populated neither by teens nor by adults but, rather, by those awful things which manifest the unstable synthesis of adult desire and infantile worldview. Whatdyacallum? Geeks? Because, ya know, if you put a “super cute tagline” on evil then it isn’t evil anymore, it’s a BoingBoing post!
Almost anything of value in the real world can be copied, from a Picasso to a software program, including photographs, music, watches, and so on. Digital stuff is easier to copy than other things, cuz its just a string of ones and zeros. What is evil is not the tool that enables one to copy, but the intent of the copier. i.e. am I copying somebody’s creative work for my own personal enjoyment, or do I intend to sell that work as my own and profit from that, thus doing serious harm to the creator. I, personally, think it would be great to be able to back up my home in SecondLife, even with the objects created by others, so I can restore it in the event of a system failure or port it to another world. But if someone copies my products and starts to sell them in ANY world, I am going to contact my lawyer or the police.
On 07.20.09 Feline said:
Bettina, if you want to be sure it’s used responsibly, don’t release it. Offer it as a service, not a product. Then you can be sure that you aren’t offering to back up prims that are not either created by or owned (with appropriate permissions) by the requestor.
The code to that is negligible. And the ability is something people want. So act like an upstanding member of the community rather than releasing software that you admit yourselves will likely be abused.
@Charles – And therein lies the problem. So many of the creators I know are exhausted from devoting hours of every week to chasing down copies of their work and filing DMCAs. Is there any end to this? It doesn’t seem technically possible. Will it get easier and easier to copy other people’s work? We all know the answer to that question. So how to release something like BuilderBot?
I posted this on ArminasX’s blog, so apologies to those who follow comments for both his and this blog… but here goes:
$100USD for the pro version of the program is not going to deter any casual thief.. and much like Rezzable’s other ‘business model’ for creating revenue in SL, not going to be profitable at all. How much you wanna bet the program gets cracked and passed around on torrent sites within the week of release?
Also, do not underestimate the lengths to which ‘casual thieves’ will go to make a buck. Last month a bunch of ‘casual thieves’ copybotted my entire store, rented half sims in not one but two estates, and attempted to pass off my work as well as lots of work from many other creators as their own. And when their stuff was returned by LL, they simply appeared again the next day and rebuilt.
As someone who does full sim work myself, yes, it could be useful to replicate my own work in a full sim environment to take elsewhere… however NOT at the expense of adding another completely unfettered tool to thieves.
I would really like to see LL impliment some sort of API for registered third party clients and bots only. I recognize there are many that are legitimately useful and not harmful to the SL community.
What Rezzable is proposing to release however? I certainly feel has the potential to be harmful. And Rezzable should be prepared to face legal trouble should they knowingly release something that ignores SL terms of service and creator intellectual property rights.
And all for $100 a pop? I’m pretty sure Rezzable will find the costs exceed the benefits again… but then when did that ever stop them from trying (and failing) to make ends meet when they were still in SL?
@Feline We must have been posting comments at the same time because I just saw your latest now. I LIKE your suggestion of providing it as a service. A lot.
I’ve often lamented that LL does not provide a means for us to archive our creations in SL; that is, take a copy of our sculptures, builds, land, etc. en masse to our hard drive for safe keeping. Over the years, I’ve seen many great sim spaces and their contents disappear forever when their creators/owners have had to downgrade or change their SL status. Wouldn’t it be nice to legitimately store a copy of these creations offline for future resurrection at a different time or place? To me, this is what legitimate archiving should be, and a tool like BuilderBot could serve that purpose.
I can’t fault someone like Rezzable for pursuing a means to mass archive their hard work. Taking items into inventory piece-by-piece, bit-by-bit is a pain–it’s like packing up a moving van. But I can’t help but think that BuilderBot’s potential for good will be corrupted as a means for wholesale stealing, particularly from SL to Open worlds. The onus is on Rezzable to ensure that their brainchild is marketed, distributed, and/or sold as a means for legitimate archival purposes only. It is disingenuous to front an attitude of “we can’t control what others do with our powerful, god-like, copying device” as preemptive absolution from its near-certain abuse.
It’s too bad Linden Lab hasn’t prevented this potential Pandora’s box from being opened in the first place. We have the (albeit imperfect) permission controls Modify, Copy, and Transfer. Why not develop a permission called “Archive” that allows creators/owners to decide whether or not they wish to allow their possessions to be archivable in the first place, and then provide them with a tool/function to legitimately archive? Leaving this choice unaddressed only forces others to take matters into their own hands, as Rezzable seems to be doing now. Once the toothpaste is out of the tube, there is no simple way to put it back without making a huge mess…
On 07.20.09 ichabod Antfarm said:
“am I copying somebody’s creative work for my own personal enjoyment, or do I intend to sell that work as my own and profit from that, thus doing serious harm to the creator.”
“But if someone copies my products and starts to sell them in ANY world, I am going to contact my lawyer or the police.”
I am not an especially good doublethinker so it’s taken me a long time to finally *get* why the copyleftist geek is all for giving away freebies yet screams blue murder if someone turns around and sells their freebie copy. The geeks keep telling us that digital goods have zero dollar value – it’s what powers their moral self-assuredness when they pinch other people’s work off the net (for their “own personal enjoyment”). Yet, if someone is able to sell a freebie good, this demonstrates rather irrefutably that a market for said good exists and, as corollary, that the freebie, in fact, *does* have monetary value via the mechanism of market exchange. Of course, this reality undermines the certainty of the geek that digital goods aren’t worth anything (and, therefore, that no harm accrues when you copy them) and, like a thief in the night, threatens to rob the geek of his fundamental worldview. As such, the geek is forced to suppress the contradiction immanent in said worldview (such things are always uncomfortable) by suppressing the free economic activity that those, you know, less hung up on ideological abstractions engage in to pay the bills.
interesting, i’ll have to think about it… not sure what i think. but YES i’d LOVE to back up my sim. and i’d love to take a copy of black swan too before it goes
am i allowed to if i don’t sell it?
ok, i’d think not but i wonder if people would be allowed to do that, if so, i’d be against it cuz it would keep ppl from going to the other sims. ok gonna think more.
On 07.20.09 Honour Mcmillan said:
As a designer/builder I expect to be the one to make the decision how and when my products become available on any OS. And once they are available, I reserve the right to distribute/charge/earn from them. How dare you take that away from me?
The fact that people already rob banks does not mean that creating new and better ways to rob banks is fair game.
“This will help big time creators back up their stuffs!”
No. It will devalue their work. What good is “big name creator’s” sim if there are 10 different copybot versions of it across the black market grids?
At least the big timer’s work is known, they have recognizable product. They have customers looking out for them. They will have an easier time filing those copyright violation complaints.
No, this will really hurt the mom and pop stores across the grid. The little startups that do wonderful work but haven’t made a name for themselves. No one will be able to identify their work and stand up for them.
What LL should do is nip this “backup ploy” in the heart and offer those services themselves. They have the means to do it. And Ann O’Toole is right, they should slam the door on third party browsers for SL. That time is over as it is now proof positive the intent for them is to outright steal or sabotage the legitimate SL grid.
On 07.20.09 Ryoma Vayandar said:
— @ Ann — not really sure that LL can be any more successful in blocking content ripping — justified or not — than the music industry has been with stopping music being copied without payment. —
Short of fielding a maintaining an army of copyright/IP lawyers to chase down pirates with a budget like those of the recording industry giants, I don’t see it happening.
Though it would likely be cracked in days, if not hours after release, the responsible thing to have done would have been to have implemented a permissions check function.
It might be a futile effort, but it would have been received as a token of respect for the builder community that is more sensitive to the possibility of copyright violation.
And as far as “evil” goes… true evil would be to have included perms checking, and then create separate organizations that feed the CopyBot paranoia by providing tools which create the “higher wall, taller ladder” scenario where programs are released to ostensibly enable and block functionality. *grin*
On 07.20.09 Ryoma Vayandar said:
“— What LL should do is nip this “backup ploy” in the heart and offer those services themselves. They have the means to do it. And Ann O’Toole is right, they should slam the door on third party browsers for SL. That time is over as it is now proof positive the intent for them is to outright steal or sabotage the legitimate SL grid. —”
Perhaps so, but the genie – or toothpaste – is out of the bottle when LL GPL’ed the viewer code, as well as the server libraries that made OpenLife/OpenSim possible.
I would however, hesitate at saying that there are so many “black market grids” out there. I keep avs on OLG and OpenSim Grid (OSG), and while there are numerous BIAB and freebie plazas in those grids, there simply isn’t the viewership that SL has to really compare in terms of lost economy.
In fact, OSG, which I believe to be one of the largest alt grids… is lucky to have more than 50 people logged in at any given time. That, and the OSG isn’t really monetized the way the Linden Grid is.
Rezzable management has always been a fucking joke but if you are going to release this we will make sure every rezzable venue on the web will go down and stay down and i’m not talking rezzing lulzcubes in your pathetic sims.
On 07.20.09 Melponeme_k said:
Ryoma
I was told by another that there is an economy on the black market grids, and it is exactly that… black market. The sales are person to person off the grids because there is no means to sell items easily in the grids themselves.
And in my travels, I’ve seen plenty of stolen content.
Just because the “Genie” has left the bottle is no excuse to keep going ahead full steam. LL could very easily take care of the grids by stopping the pipe flow of stolen items by stopping the third party browsers. And what hurts SL creators hurts LL. The destruction of the SL economy is industrial sabotage because the economy is what keeps LL afloat. Whether they like it or not.
On 07.20.09 cube3 said:
Disfunctional Parents- Linden labs create spoiled self entitled children- RightRezzable. and others;)
so obviously self serving and morally bankrupt. all of it.
You Destroy all because you cant Build what you want your way… Childish , all of it.
I posted here before that Rezzable and others the loudest to proclaim “leadership” learned and pioneered nothing in terms of 3d digital media online. Sadly this is all proven true in the most destructive of ways to many others.
Linden lab, as disfuntional a parent it is, HAS the ability to remove this spoiled child from the sandbox. Either legally or via programming work, many peoples investments and property must be protected by those who benefit from its usage.
Actual product announcement? product feature request? attempt at marketing? consumer awareness? developer self awareness act?
all of it selfish and childish. time to grow up folks.
On 07.20.09 Toxic Menges said:
Three postings I have made on the rez blog that you may like to take up with them Dusan…The last two containing urls that I urge you to click on and read.
<>
<>
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On 07.20.09 Toxic Menges said:
Posts read below – sorry
Sell this to the Lindens – your disdain for them is well known, and then you can leave with a feeling that you have one upped them in the manner to which you most feel you need. Then the Lindens can fix what you couldn’t and make it into a viable piece of software that can be used responsibly. Not that I am saying LL is necessarily the the best place for it, but better than some of the villains that are currently plaguing the grid with bots already.
—-
Mon, 07/20/2009 – 21:01 — ToxicMenges (not verified)
There is a phrase here in the UK: “They don’t like it up’em” meaning the type of person that can hand it out but doesn’t like to get it back – in other words hypocritical. If I may draw your attention to this posting: http://rezzable.com/blog/vint-falken/copyright-the-garden
Yes feed your need to beat LL – anyone who reads SL related blogs are aware of your feelings on that level, but please respect those who have laboured and are staying in SL.
Given your previous few posts regarding leaving SL to move to other grids, this smacks of tossing a grenade into the building just before you leave.
On 07.20.09 cube inada said:
“It’s the same mentality that goes into terrorism”
Frankly it is.
Bettina- since you want to invoke heaven and hell;)I suggest more pragmatism.
if you want to find a non diety “purpose” to “our” group. Then call for a voteable “sanction” or “tossing” of Rezzable within our group, Their website posted “argument” for a “release” 2 is offensive and if released as is – destructive to many who create IP as a profession and whom participate in an economy of the c/m/t managnemt system of IP online.
IP expressed in SL DRM is the(a) core of the NPIRL group, is it not?.;)
Ill assume after all this, Rezable will copy the DRM system of SecondInventory or decide NOT to release as zais has in the current described product form. Then at best this will appear as a failed “promotion” for a “new” 100$ product that has some needs for some. but also has competing products with the same proper backup capabilities.
Either way. FEAR and the threat of Extortion should not be permitted to be “proper” PR for any ethical creative group member. should it?
your group. my suggestion.:)
others in the group should voice their opions as well…if the attitudes voiced by RAR are dominant, please remove my name from the group.
Also has to do with “follow-up” news not being covered as much as well. Remember the “age-play” fiasco way back when? B ig news about two residents age-playing, confirmed adults and the rumors of Robin being shown RL pedophelia imagery that were allegedly passed around.
Then I read some follow-ups that more or less “corrected” everything by showing that LL never could find the alleged pgotographs anywhere in nthe system (and we all know the kind of ‘access’ THEY have’ – and found how trumped-up, alarmist and manipulating they reporters were in all that.
But how much coverage did THAT story get?
I believe you (Dusan” and Tateru covered it, but nowhere near the number of blogs and so-called news sites that covered the original alegations did.
Just using that one as an example – there are dozens upon dozens of examples- SL related and real life related also. But you both know that already.
Part of the reason I posted this was because I missed it when it first came out. I got the “Taser sues” story but I didn’t want to leave this trailing – kind of like how newspapers run corrections in tiny type on page 4 or whatever….not fair to anyone not to finish the story off.
On 07.20.09 Hypatia Callisto said:
well isn’t this special…
I know where I won’t be going, and that’s to Rezzable’s sims. I’m glad I’ve been working harder with Blue Mars and other Cryengine games lately, as well as RealXtend.
This is just pure malice on Rezzable’s part, and it’s going to hurt a lot of talented people. Of course this is so they can tout their own grid.
Screw you, Rezzable.
On 07.20.09 Metacam Oh said:
I have no idea about coding behind the copybot or Second Life, but it seems to me, we can scream at Rezzable all we want, but Linden Labs needs to be the ones to fix the problem. Maybe they can hire someone with that 100 mil in revenue to fix the permission system and prevent this from happening.
Thats my three cents.
On 07.20.09 Hypatia Callisto said:
It doesnt really matter if its an LL issue originally @Metcam, there will always be an analogue hole with everything, unless it gets rendered on the server.
But to aid and abet copybotting for profit and to burn down as many content creators in Second Life as possible, to promote their own grid haven (which suffers from the same problem, ironically), well… it is a new level of low. It’s about what Rezzable did, not about what LL can’t do much about.
You can drag me around with wild horses, that won’t get me to visit a Rezzable sim, ever again, no matter where it is.
On 07.20.09 Desmond Shang said:
“rationale is more like, why punish the people that need useful tools because a few people will misuse them.”
RightAsRain, it’s more like “Why barely benefit the very few that will use these tools properly, when legions of script kiddies will misuse them?”
I am absolutely stunned that you can callously take this standpoint. The timing is telling, too.
If you truly believed that this tool was *so useful* above and beyond the damage it would cause, why didn’t you come out with it when you still planned to sell significant volumes of content on the main grid?
You seem quite willing to casually play out this experiment on society, but only *after* the potential financial consequences to yourself have largely been mitigated.
The very nature of the tool ~ rip *everything* with ease ~ ratches the copybot problem up several notches. This is a script kiddie dream come true.
The price of releasing it will include:
~ stolen content problems for grid operators,
~ some fraction of content creator incomes,
~ increased need for DMCA notices,
~ Rezzable’s reputation,
~ Your reputation.
Worst of all, even if you *don’t* release it, some geektard (or several) is going to copycat the idea now that you’ve brought it to the forefront. And release their own version just for the lulz and bragging rights. Thus leaving your hands ‘clean’ but creating dangerously similar effect.
But of course, no doubt you’ve been thinking about all this through.
Do the right thing, and quickly.
Sincerely,
Desmond Shang, Guvnah
Independent State of Caledon.
On 07.20.09 Eirik Haefnir said:
This is fucking disgusting. I hope Rezzable gets badly burned over this kind of shit, fucking thieves.
On 07.20.09 John Betola said:
On 07.20.09 Bettina Tizzy said:
A few points that needs to be made here:
- Rezzable has NOT released this. They are asking for suggestions on how to release it.
- I WANT the ability to back up my sim. And hey, unless you have been living under a rock, it is already possible to copy just about everything, whether you own the perms or not.
Bettina, that’s what LL do for you. It’s called a rollback you put in a ticket if you have an issue. And if it was non copy stuff a quick IM to the creator to authorise it is all you need for the rollback.
What gives YOU the right to bypass creator permissions, licences simply because you *want to back up*? How many commercial creators pay the tier that keep Linden in profit leaving the platform running so those who use it for free and creativity have that opportunity. Without the creators who effectively retain the users, and maintain Linden in the USD they need for profit – SL will not have a future.
@ Callie Cline. Good point, should Rezzable release this tool perhaps I can pop over to their grid copy all their work and recreate in SL to an invite only sim. Hey, I can even host my own open sim and replicate it and call myself Ressellable.
Appalling lack of commercial foresight and governance.
On 07.20.09 Prokofy Neva said:
Bettina, stop it with the technocommunism, already. It’s unseemly — and stupid.
Just because YOU need a convenience doesn’t mean you get to destroy the entire world and everyone’s IP over it. Stop being so goddamn *infantile*.
The code not being released means nothing; it is out, it is around, it has already accomplished the doomsday effect and will keep spiralling.
This cynical notion that just because you *can* steal everything therefore you *should* belongs to thugs’ world, not civilization and not the Second Life community.
I’m really vehemently sick of hearing this snotty and arrogant explanation every time the issue emerges, replete with a snotty and vicious reference to the music industry.
Like…it’s ok to destroy the newspaper industry, the music industry, the book industry with rampant and criminal copying? Destruction hasn’t led to anything but profits for a tiny handful of cynical assholes who dine out having books and lectures about Free. These are not business models.
What’s most retarded about this infantile and cynical approach is that it relies on the idea that “somewhere” there will still be people who value content — oh, people who need to buy a jingle for an ad, or people who need a soundtrack for a movie, or people who like a t-shirt, or people who want a custom build in another colour. And…those people are expected not to race to the bottom and pay $0, too? Those people are supposed to keep paying top dollar to keep the cynical tecnocommies in business? Why? Who says?
There is no reason that creators cannot have some kind of permissions regime on their products and be paid for them. It need not be deliberately defeated so as to incite crime, any more than you give up on passwords and door locks just because of hackers and thiefs.
On 07.20.09 You suck said:
Anyone who creates an item like that, not considering how it will be abused, deserves to get hacked/money stolen from or any other bad scenario. I really have zero respect for people that come up with lousy excuses like ‘ Oh there will be bad people doing bad things anyway, so yeah the fact that I’m handing out guns to criminals, does not make me in any way a bad person, since I so much consider the actual impact that will have.
On 07.20.09 You suck said:
at least build in a checker that the prims you’re copying are your own created prims
LL either change the business model and re-structure the whole SL making it a kind of MMO where you have a freedom unlike in any other ones (just hire better builders than the $10/hour moles)
or
make the copying harder. Currently with alternative viewers it’s really not much effort to re-compile them without removing the few ‘if x has y permissions on this prim then’ and you can grab whole sims and import them into the various OpenSims.
Of course when the real good builds are ripped and made available grid-wide, the motivation for newbies to actually search for the original and buy it, will be around zero.
cont. on my blog, sorry this is getting too long here…
Btw copyleft is still way much nicer than copyright.
On 07.21.09 CutToTheChase said:
Let’s go right to the end-game, shall we? It’s only a matter of processor power and patience to let a few spare machines plow through the grid now… set the sim copybot after the grid, copy everything, sim by sim, and auction the builds to anyone for the highest bid, for use on any grid. Counting down the clock until someone announces this for real.
Prokbluster aside, I contend that this may be an attempt on the part of Rezzable to get into LL’s seemingly deep pockets (deep enough to buy the two largest third-party SL-shopping sites on the web), selling LL the rights to the software so that it *doesn’t* get distributed.
Doesn’t mean that someone else can’t create it, but if LL owns the rights, LL can sue anyone who creates a similar sim copier.
Asking the viewer devs to sign a license restricting them from making copying tools won’t actually help. Firstly, the code is already out there, and LL are in no position to do an epic re-write of their protocols on a whim (although over time they would change, I suppose). Secondly, breaking a clear text protocol isn’t all that hard, or we wouldn’t have WoW-bots. Even if they encrypted all grid communication, it would just slow things down (the grid, mostly) as fundamentally the client needs to have the key to do the decryption.
The movie industry with its giant buckets of cash, careful licensing and trusted hardware didn’t manage to stop DVDs bring broken (and even Blu-Rays are fairly much broken apart from some sporadic fighting over BD+). You cannot solve this technologically.
Rezzable have announced that BuilderBot will not be released under a BSD licence, interesting development really. They also sound a lot more content creator friendly with this update:
Consider the number of arts that have fallen prey to the adoption of more modern offerings that typically require far less time, mastery and talent to utilize:
Oils and Canvas vs. Photography
Horse and buggy vs. common automobiles
written correspondence vs. email
cellulid film vs. digital video
live performance vs. vinyl recordings vs. mp3s
Magazines and Newspapers vs. blogs and video
As technology advances, so to does our ability to duplicate. Draconian policies can’t stop this, and aren’t typically effective at slowing the rate of change.
With the channels of distribution growing wider all the time, it’s nearly futile to attempt detecting and prosecuting someone for unauthorized duplication. (and certainly not cost effective in most cases.)
So what’s the point? We can yell and scream until we’re blue in the face that “new fangled technology is stealing from and harming artists that create quality content”… and it won’t even create much of a speedbump to slow this down.
It is unfortunate that jaded creators may throw in the towel rather than watch their efforts reap profits for rippers. They do themselves and their fans a disservice when they cease to create.
To wax crazy and metaphorical… rippers are like moonlight. They lack the ability to warm or shine on their own… they merely create a pale imitation of that which they wish could have created themselves. It is time we should fear not rippers. So what someone copies something we did in the past.
It’s what we create next that matters most.
On 07.21.09 Jopsy Pendragon said:
ugh, I proofread twice and still junk slips through.
… “they merely create a pale imitation of that which they wish [they] could have created themselves. It is ‘time’ we should fear, not rippers. So what if someone copies something we did in the past… it’s what we create NEXT that matters most.”
On 07.21.09 Bryn Oh said:
On Black Swan sim there is a tower build I created for Rezzable. They have full mod rights to the tower yet at a later time I placed some of my own works in the build which was not part of the sale, but placed because it improved the build. I didn’t mind just leaving it there as its ownership would remain mine allowing me to remove it should I ever wish to. It sounds like Black Swan sim has now been copied including those builds that were not sold to Rezzable. It could be argued that this is the first theft to be done with that script.
On 07.21.09 cube3 said:
It is “amazing” how the “tech” attacks made on IP are targeted mostly toward “copyright”, while software “process patents” pay for it all.:)
On 07.21.09 Prokofy Neva said:
Jopsy, here we go again with the fake march of fake vintage media analogies, courtesty of Internet memes and Clay Shirky.
Each one of those forms of media didn’t “disappear” but remained, and was built upon.
Each next form of media began exactly following the format of the previous one and not realizing the full capacity. Why does Walter Conkrite sound so sonorous? Because he’s reading for radio, he doesn’t yet realize he’s on TV (in the early days) and it sticks.
Each one of these media formats copies earlier formats, but the idea that one puts the other out of business belongs only to our age. The person who drove the horse and buggy moved over to driving the car — he merely had less horseshit to clean up now. The horses were ridden more for pleasure or sent to the glue factory but no one was put out of business. The saddle maker could make bucket seats.
No artist lost his job because photography came on the scene; portrait arists and painters remain to this day.
Nothing that you say is in fact true. Media does not displace other media, and even when it does, it doesn’t put people out of work UNLESS you are Clay Shirky and say it should, or unless you are 101 other geek bolsheviks claiming that everything except their consulting fees and government grants should be liberated.
Nobody “yells and screams” when technology changes because it doesn’t move as fast as you came. The newspapers are still in their newstands. I still pick up letters at the mail box, and there are still people taking buggy rides in the city where I live.
When people want to portray technology as “accelerating” or “putting somebody out of business” it’s usually because they want more power for their own class of people and want to egg on something that isn’t in fact accelerating as they’d like.
Yes, journalists have been thrown out of work. They found jobs in government, PR, and education where maybe they belonged all along.
The idea that we’re supposed to create, and just let creations be ripped and then just make new stuff is some gerbil-on-a-wheel idea that some corporation has saddled you with. We need do nothing of the kind. There are tools to stop theft. There are policies that can be put in place. Man up, and stop demanding that other people be put out of business so that you can gloat about your techocommunist theories.
On 07.21.09 Prokofy Neva said:
By the way Jopsy, if you think it’s ok that everything you made in the past can be copied, please put your entire inventory out on your lawn set permless for me to pick up, kthxbye
On 07.21.09 Prokofy Neva said:
Xugu Madison follows all the opensouce extremist candards on this discussion:
o your goal is not 100 percent deterrence, but better deterrence than we have now, so you do what you can and don’t give up due to lack of 100 percent closeability
o no one has demonstrated that such authenticating makes servers load slower or slows down the entire grid — this is one of those urban legends that code kiddies tell without any scientific proof “just because”. WoW does this and WoW doesn’t lag lol
o er, WoW does this, and it doesn’t have to hire thousands of coders, or somehow cripple itself to get the job done. It collects $15.95 from every player per month, it has 18 million users, it gets the job down. We need to stop hearing incessantly from whiney kids about how this can’t be done and is technologically impossible, and start assembling the data to make it possible and convince the Lindens
o they are hobbled by the Stallmanites in their own ranks and are split themselves — and Rob Linden tiresomely making long arguments on the wiki as to why you can’t do this, driven by his opensource ideology, has to be overridded so that other voices with alternatives can not only be heard, but try these things out
o Dale Innis and Zha Ewry need to be muted, as they continue to interrupt this conversation from the hugely powerful position of the hugely self-interested IBM, and that needs to be stopped – -get their pressure out of this discussion so it can be had free of ideology, greed, and politics, to the extent possible to verify its technical points
o there is nothing wrong with experimenting and trying different things.
o I find it the height of hypocrisy for Rezzable and their groupies to claim that it’s ok to let ripping code into the wilds like this because nobody will be smart enough to use it much as it’s too technical, and yet not apply the very same principle of technical obfuscation to make it possible so fewer people DO steal. It’s the biggest hold in their argument and I would keep accentuating it
o stop looking to the music industry for justification of Stallmanism, as it isn’t even being portrayed correctly. Last time I looked you still have to pay for i-tunes that you can’t just download for free. It may have been reasonable to remove DRM from the equations these companies had to deal with, where they had captive audiences with their i-pods dominating the market anyway, and where the issue was enabling the user to make multiple copies to different devices
WE DON’T HAVE THAT PROBLEM IN SECOND LIFE BECAUSE YOU CAN ENDLESSLY COPY BUT STILL KEEP DRM NOT TO TRANSFER DUH.
I had that epiphany myself literally in the last week as I reflected on it, and it shows that once you start thinking about this problem freely, without the cant of the opensource shill, you begin to find your way.
On 07.22.09 cube3 said:
I received a inworld SL notecard and a transcript from a “group that cannot be named;)”
It seems the below comments made, that clearly are my professional and personal point of view toward the actions of others has caused the need for more clarifications from those who decide to create other “suggested” but “non authoritative or sanctioned” positions over others.
As the below repost clearly shows, I asked for no unilateral actions to be taken toward ANY PARTY, except POSSIBLY MYSELF in terms of a public listing.
IF only ASKING for Feedback and SUGGESTING actions is good for the Rezzable Goose, then I assume I’m fine and Gander.
c3
—————————————————
“It’s the same mentality that goes into terrorism”
Frankly it is.
Bettina- since you want to invoke heaven and hell;)I suggest more pragmatism.
if you want to find a non diety “purpose” to “our” group. Then call for a voteable “sanction” or “tossing” of Rezzable within our group, Their website posted “argument” for a “release” 2 is offensive and if released as is – destructive to many who create IP as a profession and whom participate in an economy of the c/m/t managnemt system of IP online.
IP expressed in SL DRM is the(a) core of the NPIRL group, is it not?.;)
Ill assume after all this, Rezable will copy the DRM system of SecondInventory or decide NOT to release as zais has in the current described product form. Then at best this will appear as a failed “promotion” for a “new” 100$ product that has some needs for some. but also has competing products with the same proper backup capabilities.
Either way. FEAR and the threat of Extortion should not be permitted to be “proper” PR for any ethical creative group member. should it?
your group. my suggestion.:)
others in the group should voice their opions as well…if the attitudes voiced by RAR are dominant, please remove my name from the group.
Hi!
I’m a member of the “explorateurs francophones” SL group. This group is based on exploring sims that we then advertise to our members through notices.
You might then find good ideas there too
My blog has all notices translated in English if you do not read French.
Hope you enjoy it …
On 07.22.09 rightasrain said:
@ Bryn — thanks. Nice to speculate and call us thieves. I don’t understand why if you have a concern you wouldn’t contact us and discuss. Is piling onto a mob really what you are about? I don’t think so. You are one of the most talented people working in SL and while I expect spew from many I would have hope for a lot more from you. Don’t get sucked into the darkness.
On 07.22.09 cube3 said:
It seem that those who keep coding/ and evangelizing such “neutral tools” for “experimental economic” social release on the global web should check their math.
It does seem today that 3 wrongs DO equal 1 Right.
[...] Last week Dusan posted in his blog about the Psychology of Immersive Environments Technology Working Group (or PIE.TWG for short) and I decided to attend their meeting. The group is still in the formative stages, but so far its responsibilities are: [...]
On 07.23.09 Bryn Oh said:
RAR my point is that if the Black Swan sim was copied it means you unwittingly copied work I had there which was not purchased by Rezzable. I don’t think you intentionally took them, I imagine you expected everything on the sim to belong to you and that is quite reasonable. But legally I don’t imagine that saying you didn’t know would hold up. Then again perhaps it would I really don’t know. But giving this tool out would likely cause a rash of LindenLab freezing of accounts and worse as people copied whole sims which belonged to them, yet contained objects which were purchased “no copy” thus breaking the original agreement upon sale.
On 07.23.09 ichabod Antfarm said:
I was very confused until I scrolled down and found the photo you are referring to. I loved it. It reminded me of that scene from Wayne’s World (I think!) in the guitar shop that had a sign posted which read “Absolutely No Stairway to Heaven!” A pleasant diversion from the acrimony of the past few days. Now, where were we?
Yep. It happens. Linden Lab changes to rules. All the time.
What I find (for lack of a better word) ironic, is that this issue is one that probably affected 0.001% of businesses. In fact, it seems like it can be traced to affecting only one company.
Who can worry about the referral system that stopped working over a year ago, when currently there’s a bug to turn permissioned objects into full perm: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4444
something like this.. this issue affects everyone. Who can worry about a referral program if the main laws of the inworld SL universe can be currently walked around.
A properly constructed Affiliate / Refer-a-friend program can be one of the most powerful viral marketing tools a company can use to build web traffic and grow its customer base. I own a number of web properties that generate significant revenues, through a carefully chosen set of affiliate programs.
A program like this must be tied to a subscription or up-front revenue model to work. It’s not a good fit for the current “Free access” model, Linden Lab seems content to offer and is used by the majority of users. The Lab also seems content with the current rate of word-of-mouth-driven adoption. It obviously suits their growth goals and requires no further stimulation.
For the Lab, not sharing revenue they don’t have to makes perfect “bottom-line” sense. Unfortunately, in the long term, not offering ways for people to share in their success and share the excitement of that success with others will backfire. I believe the future of e-business and social networking will increasingly be one where customers are rewarded for helping build and grow brands. Companies that fail to acknowledge and reward the people who help them be successful will not survive this growing wave of grass-roots marketing and referral-driven sales for long.
@JeanRicard I have two explanations for why there is nonzero number in that report.
I still get a small trickle of referral bonuses, always associated with accounts with join dates before july 23rd 2008. Sometimes people hang out as basic for a while before deciding to upgrade to premium.
Also, it is possible that manually typing your referrer’s name into your sign up form, may still work, while the urls don’t. I haven’t tested that. Postcards (slurls) and secondlife.com urls with u= referral codes no longer work. The “refer a friend form” doesn’t work either, since all that does is send out emails with links to secondlife.com using your u= referral code.
After Linden Lab bought XStreet SL, they made it so you can use your SL avatar name and password to login there, rather than having two separate (but linked) accounts.
If you watch the browser tab name and the status bar closely as you login to XStreet SL now, you’ll see it’s contacting id.secondlife.com and the tab name says something like “OpenID transaction in progress”. In other words, it would appear that Linden Lab has created OpenIDs for SL avatars, or at least for those with accounts on XStreet SL.
It would be a straightforward matter for Linden Lab to tell you your SL avatar’s OpenID URL and then you could use that to login (with your SL identity) to any website that accepts OpenID for sign-in. There are over 48,000 websites that accept OpenID as a method of registration or login.
HAHA Tateru – well, see, when they break something I guess they break it all kinds of ways.
@Valiant – totally agree (although the referral system is based on people who DO pay, but your larger point is correct). I don’t actually think this particular way of generating word of mouth and referrals is particularly effective. Maybe some kind of API system embedded in social media widgets or something, who knows. Plus, I’m not sure it should just be cash – some kind of status thing would be nice too.
We need badges like in Metaplace! Um, OK, maybe not. But surely they should overhaul the whole mess.
And P.S. I don’t think it should just be on an account basis, there should be some kind of larger enterprise referral thing as well.
I’ve just finished writing about this very issue of “silo ghettos” and their decline as part of my _Social Tesseracting_: a set of posts as part of the augmentology.com project:
“Decline of Silo Ghettos: as information deformation impacts knowledge forms, there’s an increasing need to provide social tesseractors with comprehensive dimensional engagement. This type of borderless interaction deforms monostreams into cross-channelled productions. Social tesseracts assist in addressing the walled garden approach to software and platform production [think: the isolation encountered in the locked door syndrome]. Google Wave is one system that removes such constraints and allows user input to migrate into previously distinct arenas. Other instances of interoperable systems that require the reorientation of Information Silos:
* augmented applications that encourage a pairing of geolocative and geophysical needs
* bridging software that links previously disparate platforms together [think: IRC-to-Second Life Chat Bridge].”
Mez – thanks so much, I missed your post (have you in my reader but I far too often fall way behind)….really amazing post, a MUST read. Will visit more often.
On 07.26.09 Prokofy Neva said:
I think there are two reasons the Lindens retired or suspended this program:
1. There was a bug in the system, one I reported numerous times. Friends you’d made back in 2004 who had long since already delivered a bonus to you *kept* delivering the bonus at odd times in the following years, which should never have happened.
2. People gamed the system, harvesting “friends” in various ways or for various capers, not through actual general help or from knowing from real life. I’m not so sure that a website that informs people of new names whose owner manages to snag bunches of calling cards then through that every week isn’t a form of gaming (I’d like to understand that better). So like every other bonus thing the Lindens have offered that got exploited, they had to retire it because it drained money from them.
On 07.26.09 Prokofy Neva said:
Yes, the avatar is a channel that I tune into when I want to do all those things associated with that avatar, and I’d like it to keep integrity, and not have that integrity constantly banged on and hammered on to crack it to link it to my real life name not out of some “fear of being responsible” but simply out of a desire to manage different aspects of my life’s activities *as I wish*.
I don’t hide this connection and indeed it’s not only available on Google, some people, precisely like Vint Falken, have made it a blood sport to Google bomb me and attempt to link this avatar name with my RL name as a form of harassment (Google it to see what I mean); hilariously, the Google bomb meant to “intimidate and shame me for life” is connected to a hate-page that Benjamin Duranske used to keep and update hysterically about me linking my RL and SL names…until he got a real job in a law firm and then deleted his hate-page because it really was unprofessional. So Vint’s hate-page links to a Duranske 404 lol.
I’ve never known anyone in SL to link RL and SL links for good purposes; it is always used as a form of brutal bullying and hate in an effort to try to shame and intimidate someone into silence of criticism, or to act in a certain way, or even to give up something like a transgendered identity. It’s disgraceful that people do that, and frankly, when people bully and harass me using this technique as Vint has done, I response by giving and equal and opposite pushback and doing it back to them, as it is the only way to deter bad behaviour in the absence of a legislative and justice system sin SL.
The call for RL/SL linkage can seldom be demonstrably shown to be in good faith, for good and moral purposes. The Metanomics pressurizing on this is odd, because those in business who need to use their real names either buy their real names at the outset, or put their real names on their profiles somewhere, sometimes smushing a first-last name into a first SL name and taking an SL last name. Such an act should be voluntary. if such people then wish to build networks among themselves and privilege that sort of behaviour of RL-SL linkage, that’s great, but then…they should have no felt need to bludgeon others into doing this.
That they do speaks volumes about what this is really all about: power over other people, and the endless debate about whether those who are anonymous have made a power play over other people, or whether they have a hedge against the attempt by others to have power over them.
As for Google Android, you’re not only right to raise this issue, it’s worse than you know. It is invading the home:
Well done, Dusan. What a post! Time for me to sit down and develop my merchandising plan for Greenies toys and desk accessories. I also wonder if AM Radio should charge Nabisco for the work their ad agency didn’t do: http://npirl.blogspot.com/2008/07/nabiscos-ad-agency-inspired-by-second.html (because it wasn’t their idea). My point being that the ideas and creations that are begin realized in virtual worlds aren’t necessarily staying JUST in virtual worlds anymore. The borders appear to have vanished. The problem (or opportunity, depending on what side you are on) goes far behind the “walled gardens of VWs,” and into every aspect of human existence.
On 07.26.09 Caliburn Susanto said:
“my impression that it was operatic snark” — hah! My reaction exactly (but you said it better).
Great post. I need more caffeine and a couple of more readings to let the first wash sink in, but kudos on the analyses.
There seems to be a lot of confusion about the differences between copyright, licenses, and DRM (digital rights management). Let me give a concrete example.
Suppose I make a chair from scratch in Second Life. Linden Lab lets me own the copyright in that chair.
Because I agreed to the SL Terms of Service (ToS), I must grant Linden Lab a limited license to do a few things like use photos of my chair in their marketing brochures. Read the SL ToS for more details.
I can sell Sam a copy of the chair and write a license which says, “Sam may sit in this chair on Fridays in September, and Sam must place it on a yellow floor, and Sam may make 4 copies of the chair, and those copies have the same restrictions.” Sam must agree to the license and we should keep some kind of proof that he agreed. (It’s a contract.)
SL includes some DRM tools which can help enforce licenses (e.g. enforcement of the next user’s ability to modify, copy, and transfer/sell the item). Obviously, SL’s DRM tools can’t enforce my requirement that Sam only place my chair on yellow floors. Linden Lab never anticipated that restriction, nor could they anticipate all possible restrictions. They just made tools to enforce some of the more common restrictions.
Right now, it seems to me like few people even know about licenses. The few people who do know about licenses seem only to know about the various Creative Commons licenses, the GPL, and the BSD license. Textures R Us is one glimmer of hope: they have a carefully-written license on the textures they sell.
Just for fun, here are some more licenses:
“Sally may only rez this chair when she has more than 347 L$ in her SL account balance.”
“Tim may make copies of this chair and may sell copies of this chair to people born in Sarnia, Ontario, Canada.”
Summary points:
* There are infinitely many licenses one can write to govern how others may use my content (intellectual property in which I own the copyright).
* Second Life doesn’t have any default or obvious tools for writing licenses. I suppose you could write a license on a notecard, but then how do you get proof that both sides agreed to it? For bigger things, you really should print a license on paper and have both parties sign it in ink. If you’re okay with digital signatures (like those provided by VeriSign), then you can do that too.
* The mod / copy / trans permissions that you set on an object are NOT a license. Those are just tools to help you enforce a license.
—–
In the Rezzable case, I suspect Rezzable owns the copyright in the content that their employees and contractors made for them, so they can do whatever they please with it, including copying it off The SL Grid to another virtual world. (The original creator retains the moral rights in the content, but that doesn’t usually mean much, unless you’re French and the creation is a piece of art, but I digress…)
Troy – great points. Again, I’m not sure how Rezzable approaches this – I know for myself, if I contract a designer we try to be clear in a written contract what rights are being transferred, whether it’s “everything, for any purposes, including the ability to mod, transfer, hack, or whatever”. Having said that, not all content creators are going to go for this, and SL implies a few things that we would try to articulate, including whether the work is attributed and whether that attribution remains if we mod it.
I’m reminded of Mark Helprin’s refusal to allow edits to a speech he wrote for George Bush, claiming that the copyright didn’t extend to their right to edit it:
In any case, I think this more broadly supports my main argument:
- Copyright is executed within an explicit framework within Second Life that includes the concept of C/M/T.
- Contracts can be made between buyers and creators to over-write those perms.
- This is, however, in conflict with the stated goals of Linden Lab to facilitate IP protection and leads to an extrapolation whereby that protection comes in conflict with tools to “copy all”.
- The Lab needs to think about more than just the tools they use, they need to clearly articulate policy and the direction of that policy, and to look at enforcement as a mechanism for further communicating their intent.
As of today, the Lab’s policy is: “no one should rip of your content unless you have explicitly granted that right, but if they do, go hire some lawyers.”
But, while we’re on the topic of tools, I think the Lab could go a long way if they’d GOM or buy out Second Inventory or otherwise create a way for content creators to back up their works. I wonder even if they could do this on an estate level – kind of a “group owned” idea that’s applied at the sim level rather than the object level.
I’m not entirely sure what would work – what I DO think would work is a sort of “IP Summit” – a way in which these issues can be discussed in a transparent way and we can all get a clear sense of how all these mechanisms and licenses can fit together to protect the user-generated content business model or to at least know once and for all that the future of SL is elsewhere.
These issues are broad and important. What saddens me is that we’re in a time when the business models that support the monetization of digital content creation are still relatively new and are evolving, Second Life has stumbled onto one that seems to be working, that has holes and frustrations but that is able to support a robust user-to-user economy and YET….and yet the Lab seems to prefer that this sort of organically evolve, that it doesn’t need a nudge now and then, and that for all the focus on tools they provide little guidance or strategic direction around the issue.
There are so MANY frustrations: attribution, group perms, bulk perms (fixed but, um, broken), back-up, etc. But in working on these problems at a granular tool level rather than within a policy framework, we risk seeing further erosions and waking up one day to realize that what was valuable is no longer so.
On 07.26.09 cube3 said:
Seem some folks ideas arent HISTORY lessons, but that you/many finally caught up to their meaning.;)
Rezzables and others actions were “questionable to unethical” as they presented themselves as “advocates and leaders for professional creatives” This I believe true.
Anyone interested in a history lesson or suggestion for professional co-professional ethics and behaviors should at least visit the GAG or many other “old” profesional content creatives website.
The last week has been even more “questionable” as those who “had taken and asked for the most” from the “questionable culture and attitudes toward” non programmer “content creators” that IS part of the TAO of Linden, defended or executed the same non professional or open tactics to protect their own self interests above any said “profession” at whatever stage it is of “virtual worlds designer/artist”.
Now that the new web3.d metarati have caught up to the 1999 wed3d metarati in terms of realization of ones value and work product… what will you do next.
another SL dance party may not be the best answer-;)
BTW- collada is NOT a “standard” for wed3d, same as VRML or X3D were/are(ISO STANDARD) nor is O3D, collada and soon o3d are both like SWF (flash) or DXF (autodesk) standards due to a single companies domninance or market attempts, not an attempt at a agreed organizational bodies standards…like ISO.
As suggested last week, id be glad to sign-if i agree with the content- a letter directed to LL Business/Legal asking strongly for a redefined TOS in terms of the CMT “rules” of the SL platform/mmo game.
SL is as many said years ago.. another AOL, and many will reinvent their careers using it. And like AOL it is not capable of becoming a wider medium that many wanted to call it, the “metaverse”.
realtime 3d immersive media will not go away, either will the 2d web platform of virtualization.
Whose modes and actions we promote will define the society we are as we realize that virtualization with 3d ,edia, is just the lastest step in a process other started decades ago.
virtual food pellets for thought.
c3
On 07.26.09 cube3 said:
BTW- i requested some SL IN-world –user IP creator folk and such be invited to speak to the first VR worlds summits/meetings of the last few years…. Stanfords and the first Virtual Worlds (engage) NY conference—- who were they? or could they be looked for or even found?, was the response by the show runners I received….?!-)
Don’t worry, if I’d ever kill you, it won’t be over this. But err… thank you for thinking about me, even if it wasn’t necessary. :d
Just for the record, I find a situation where the same overlapping company controls most of our search traffic, most of our statistical data for whom visits our websites, most of the advertistements on the internet, most of the maps, most of the ’streetviews’, and even a parts of the medical data of the – american – internet users pretty spooky. Monopolies are never a good thing, and I don’t think Google should have one, regardless how ‘well meaning’ they are suppose to be.
I don’t mind giving – what is considered ‘private’ inSL – date out, such as gender, age, location, profession, the fact that I have a cold, and even posting on facebook when I’ll be in London and when I’ll be in Belgium. When you see the errors that lately have been made as it comes to safeguarding data – by governement, search enginges, banks, military, … – I do think that the majority of nations should go and sit down, and have a good chat about international privacy and how they plan to handle citizen data now and in the future. And which restrictions on keeping data they want to impose.
Ann / Vint
On 07.26.09 cube3 said:
official names?
hmm
how about Oceania? every one gets a waterfront view;)
better yet, lets call it Eden.
what, too SF?;)
On 07.26.09 cube3 said:
very soon, James Cameron will invent virtual reality and avatars.
As for responding to good ‘ld Prok above, as he constantly sees no malice in attacking ‘fellow avatars’ on their ‘first life’ identities – and very personal parts of those the least, it is not but just that not just ‘he’, but also ’she’ (we still don’t know who’s puppeteering whom) is held responsible for those outragious statements.
I’m sure if she did not only keep to the ToS, but also only slightly to the social norms that did arrise over time in the Second Life and SLbloggers community, no harm would have come over the search ranking of her RL identity on Google.
On 07.27.09 Tycho Beresford said:
Instead of Second Life, how about calling it Second Work? Job²?
On 07.28.09 Doreen Garrigus said:
This made me tear up, Dusan. Nicely, nicely put
On 07.28.09 Leo H said:
I am a person with a physical challenge, married to someone with a different challenge. It was a very nice change to have a TAB (Temporarily Able Bodied) writer express what many of us have felt for some time. Thank you for validating from the other side of an unnecessary social divide.
[...] something which I wrote about following the 3DTLC conference in February. At the time, I called this the shift from “why” to “what”, and the hot button topics weren’t [...]
On 07.29.09 Prokofy Neva said:
Well, Dusan. This is awfully infomercialy. I’m trying to parse through it, and also mindful of these discussions here:
Rezzable snark and dismissal and an IBM infomerical: http://ow.ly/iuwD
The debate around Beth Noveck’s visit, which is partly about some roleplayers’ saying cynically, “why bother with VWs that aren’t ready when nobody wants their fantasy invaded” to my more alarmed concern that “government already welded social media right into the White House, look out, VWs at least prototype if not get welded too” to a Linden saying ominously “I will delete you”. Sigh.
I think all of this has lots of good stuff in it and I don’t think in fact the Lindens are guilty of hyping their platform, really, they’re realistic for example about avatar limits.
But I wonder why they so zealously drive people to solution providers as if everyone really needs expensive handholders (like yourself lol!)
I’d be happier if there was more of a broader pitch to groups of all kind, so that nonprofits or a neighbourhood committee could get value out of it too. I’m hoping to try an experiment like this myself soon.
The other thing that I find discomforting is this aggressive isolation. Philip used to tell us that we didn’t have to worry about corporations coming to SL because they’d all be hidden on islans and closed off to the public and we’d never see them. But…on the other hand the Lindens keep talking this good game about the rich robust world teeming with resident-made content, and then refer people to XStreetSL to go and buy whiteboars and business skins.
What that suggests to me is that they are creating a sort of elite content creation class among the gold providers who interact with the biz islands and sell to them — and, well, it’s yet another institutionalization of the FIC. This already began, of course, back in 2006-2007 when naturally those with the big solutions provider contracts put their friends’ stores on the islands or hustled their friends’ content to corporations. That’s all “normal” in SL, of course but…I really would like all this to work more toward an open society, a real civil society online.
And that brings me to your point about “the agenda” being set. At one level, it seems great to have online communities having a virtual outlet or inlet to manifest themselves, on the other hand, for all the reasons I’ve invoked around Beth Noveck and the awfulness of the White House blogs I really actively worry how that is going to turn out, especially when we have the TOS and “I will delete you” Lindens on hand.
If I wasn’t already completely worried about Beth’s theories in the last 4 years from going to obscure SL meetings or reading obscure journals, I’d be actively worried by looking at how the social media MMORPGy web site works, with its double-plus good proposals crafted by unseen munchkins and voting of people’s comments up or down into the memory hole — and then rapid closing of every topic, synthesizing of best proposals, and closing off further debate.
It’s such a sharp contrast to Metanomics. As you know, I’m a big critic about Metanomics but I feel my criticism is about making it better. And we have to acknowledge the great achievement of Metanomics which is the institutionalization of the backchat and the multiple streams on different sims of chat around the event that becomes a legitimate aspect of that event and its knowledge and information.
Prok – hmm…well, I suppose the post is a bit self-promotional, although I didn’t mean it to be. I kind of feel like I was trying to draw from experience more than pitch something, not unlike how you use your experience with your in-world business to draw wider points.
I hope that Metanomics IS a model for enterprise, or non-profits, or whoever, and that more things like it keep popping up – because it’s the back chat where the real lessons come from and maybe, and the tweets and the blog comments and the cross-posts. What start as fairly institutionalized messages – the latest study, say, or someone pitching Forterra or Blue Mars or whatever…become a source of discussion, criticism, cynicism on occasion or downright snark. But there are some lessons in that, and it has something to do with being transparent, and open to the slings and arrows, because maybe they help to hone our understanding, or give us a read on where we stand in a community, whatever.
There’s a weird balance though that it feels like Metanomics needs to try to keep – and it’s the balance between, hmmm….I’ll call it ‘authority’ or maybe Rob would prefer ‘curated exploration’, and the kind of tribal chant that I’ve seen at some in-world events where it’s more like a mob than an intelligent discussion.
I’ve railed about the shift to a tribal morality because I don’t think people are thinking through or articulating more broadly what we give up, when social order and the ‘wikification’ of knowledge dilutes individual knowledge and expression. I’m not saying tribal morality is de facto wrong, but rather that taken to extremes its no different than the extremes of a property-based one…we need to continually be aware of where the edges are.
For enterprise, the challenges include things like balancing the voice that you give to customers in how new products and services should be designed, and faith in your own powers to give them something that they might not even recognize they want until they see it.
Again, virtual worlds are one site from which to view these challenges.
As for the Lindens – I’m less worried about enterprise being behind firewalls or whatever, and am more worried about the other silos that are being created. I know that with clients we talk to, they about split between people looking at being on the main grid, and those who for different reasons need to be behind a firewall, or who have a narrow goal that doesn’t require the rest of it. You still hope that they sign up for the public Grid though, and experience some of the real magic that happens in a pick-up event or the back chat at a community forum.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Lab launch an “Education” sub-domain maybe, or a “Not-for-Profit” one (competing http//:betterverse.org probably).
It’s not the partitioning off and firewalls, it’s the possibility that we lose the serendipity on the main Grid which makes it so vibrant. If users are categorized, sent down certain paths, and end up living out their days on the education continent or the adult continent or some corner of Mainland whose purpose isn’t quite clear anymore, then we risk ending up with ghettos of shared interests, when what I love about SL is finding shared experiences with those whom I have nothing, seemingly, in common.
But if they can pull off the balancing act of providing streams of access for different user groups, AND launch a new viewer and an ad campaign or something so they reach that 5 million monthly user thing that M talked about, then maybe the Grid will be big enough to contain it all, and developer FIC or not, maybe there will be enough opportunity to go around.
Thanks for that Dusan, it was exactly the kind of inspirational post I needed, having recently suffered the ‘isn’t it all sex, what are those silly names, why not use WebEx, it must run in a browser’ types of knockbacks. And when you say ‘HTML-on-a-prim’ will come, well, it’s my turn for shameless self promotion – I have a working clickable, scrollable web browser in SL. So I guess it’s kinda here already.
Neil – I know your tool I think, great work! I know what you mean by knock-backs, they happen – I find the wall is usually with the IT people…can get a champion and then someone punctures the tires. But you get better at anticipating where the trouble will come from and arming the champions with the right materials.
More generally though, I love the line in the new book by the guy who started Frog. He talks about innovation, and how to sell ‘new ideas’, especially when you can make a rational argument for returns, clear goals, all that. And his closing argument is:
“OK, so maybe this isn’t for you. But if we execute this plan for your competitors, and it works like we say it will, where will that leave you.”
Now, for that to work, WE have to work – to make sure we have a very clear value proposition and a plan that’s “big enough” and strategic enough that if we use that line above it will give someone pause.
Having said that, I recognize that we ARE still at innovator phase, and not everyone wants to risk being innovative, so we just kind of move on.
Eventually the world will see what we’re talking about, right?
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » Linden Lab’s Grid for Business: It’s All Work – Virtual worlds and creativity, business, collaboration, and identity. [...]
Hi Dusan
Like the line from Frog – filing that away Not sure you would know my web tool as it’s not available yet, however it does feature in a video demo I recently shot, as part of a new CMS which has meeting in SL to discuss content built in. I need to edit and caption the video, but it get’s the point across. The browser and also a noteboard tool I’ve created feature from midway on. http://www.screencast.com/t/loWAgxV53YY
Very well said! I worked with a guy who’d had childhood polio and had never danced, although he was a fierce jazz guitarist. We worked at a state university, but through his eyes I saw the ramps that he struggled with and the pain he had every day. He passed away a few years ago, but I’ll never forget his positive outlook and fighting spirit.
As for artificial intelligence, maybe I’m naive but with all the bugs Vista has, I’m skeptical that computers could ever be smarter than us.
I have built a a steady business in Second Life. I think there is a big sink in the past few years: quality. The quality of goods has increased very much. People don’t wear old clothes because they don’t look as good as new ones. This simulates wear and tear.
There is also churn of fashion. Last spring everyone was a neko. This spring everyone was a vampire.
Wear and tear is not what stops people wearing most clothes. They feel they are “old”.
[...] can now officially retract my previous post where I stated: “But I’m also a big believer that this should be facilitated within a [...]
On 08.05.09 JenniverQ said:
“The Lab made very clear in this post that tools such as the one proposed by Rezzable are against the TOS” …
Don’t you mean … The lab made very clear in this post that *using* tools such as the one proposed by Rezzable *to move content created by others* is against the TOS? Is the tool itself a violation of the TOS? Or is it a particular use of the tool that is the problem? Nothing in that excerpt suggests that LL has a problem with a content creator using the tool to extract their own creations…
To paraphrase the gun rights activists:
Rezzable’s tools don’t steal content. People steal content.
Jenniver, I’m not sure how they could be more clear when they say:
“As we have said in the past, the use of CopyBot or similar copying tools to infringe others’ intellectual property is a violation of our Terms of Service and may result in suspension or banning of infringers’ Second Life accounts, including any alternate accounts.”
So yes, it is the use of the tools, but they go further and say that the tools themselves need to be developed against standards:
“We are looking for thoughtful ways to balance the tools’ usefulness for intellectual property owners against the potentially bad purposes that they may be put to. We will be listening, watching, and reaching out to members of the community.”
and
“To those developing copying tools, we urge the simultaneous development of standard industry practices that protect against intellectual property infringement.”
Their implication is that following this discussion period, and upon broad agreement of what those standards should be, the Lab will act accordingly to protect IP.
So, they are fairly clearly invoking a move towards regulating, or at least setting standards for the tools themselves.
This idea that “people steal content” is ridiculous. When you are able to place restrictions and guidance on the tools themselves, as the Lab is in a position to do, saying that it’s not the tools that are the problem but the people using them is erroneous.
Yes, it’s people who copy the content. But providing them with the tools to do so easily means that more people will find it easier to copy more content. When you can put barriers in place, why wouldn’t you? Those barriers can be standards, enforcement, policy, and technology.
Having said that, I agree that content creators should be able to extract and back-up their own content and I didn’t imply or state anywhere that this shouldn’t be the case.
The Lab made clear that the tool Rezzable proposed WAS against the TOS because they made clear that copying others’ content (not your own) is against the TOS without a system and documentation of licensing; they made clear that the tools need to be released against standards that reflect this; and that copying others’ content IS stealing and is punishable.
Rezzable, of course, decided NOT to release a “full sim, everyone’s content can get vacuumed up” tool, and if they have perm checks in place then more power to content creators.
[...] She’s been the star in numerous machinima projects (and some porn), a secret operative during wandie games, rubbed elbows in clubs owned by people who would never let “JellyBean Madison” in and [...]
I think I am among the minority of SL Residents who actually has a lot of faith in Linden Lab at least always trying to do the right thing, as long as it maintains or improves their own mission and business prospects. It doesn’t mean I always agree and that I am never frustrated with anything they say or do, but I do understand 95% of all they say or do (the ‘gaming’ ban is still an area I wish they would revisit, but suspect it has more to do with script usage and agent limits on sims than anything moral or otherwise.)
I have said many times that I believe Linden Lab hears us and they really do react. Sometimes it is simple miscommunication, such as the removal from search results for those running “traffic bots” or “camping systems” – *not* any other kind of ‘ban’ or other ‘disciplinary’ action, which people complain, whine and get all in a tizzy about.
Sometimes it is outright mistakes, albeit genuine mistakes, such as the original introduction of “Openspace” sim availably to the public at large. (Can you say “New Coke”?) – Jack and Linden Lab should have created the “Homestead” variety first or at least roll-out such a product incerementally, slowly, see what the result it and then adjust availablity accordingly.
And then sometimes outright stupidly, dumfoundedly wrong, such as the raising of tiers on these Openspace sims by drastic amounts; rather than simply placing the restrictions (scripts and agent count) first; then raising tier through attrition, or the one-day deadline to eliminate any and all “games of chance” rather than do as they did when they eliminated “return-based investments” with a 90-day ‘ramp-down’ window.
All in all, I believe those in the wheelhouse of Linden Lab are genuinely trying to do right in such a way as to benefit the Second Life community *as a whole* – because that is where their business lies. They tried the hands-off routine. The beginning of the end of that, where their hand was forced to begin adding to policy, I believe, was during the “age-play’ fiasco and that German “news” orginazation (which really wasn’t – it’s a tabloid) and Linden lab *tried* to remain hands-off and allow the circuis to right itself.
But now, Linden Lab, because of certain events, the loudest ‘whiners’ and business plan adoptions and corrections must now begin ’steering’ or ‘directing’ the way residents act and police activities where the self-policing just didn’t work, or didn’t work well or fast enough.
I’ve written my own response to this “I.P. Roadmap” at Common Sensible (will publish Thursday morning) and proclaim this roadmap is just that: a ‘map’ and we don’t know how close to the stated intentions they will be able to remain. At least their intentions are in the right place.
But in the end, I really do believe Linden Lab and it’s employees are genuinely trying to ‘do right by the residents’.
Please allow me to stand and applaud Linden Lab with you on this move.
LL is “protecting” its own liability. Any item created by a user is their IP and they own it. LL is just licensing via TOS the usage of that expression. If they allow a third party- like rezzable to interfere with “their” offered management of anothers IP, they can be found liable, thus the announcement as constructed.
if LL attempts realife solutions for content management they will be “sellable” to the realworld, not the under 15 mental set. If they attempt “wiki solutions” and “gameable ratings toys” and the usual old SL “community” managment gimmicks, the SL grid will continue to demise, and the company will be as Forterra, or Croquet, or many others, just trying to sell corporate 3d chat rooms. PLUS they still have the huge albatross of the last few years “wild west” approach to raising income with “cute advertising slogans”- “IP violations of major corporate brands and properties” and “general consumer affairs issues not resolved financially”.
“the time to put away childish things” has not only struck Americas realities, but its latest SL children in virtuality as well….
Children who i suggest visit the post/issues around exitreality ( who just bought out vsides assets-another dead metafav place of pundits)
and the “web3d search/copy/ use with no pay or credits” search engine they placed on the web only 9 months ago or so…
it sucked up a decades of nonDRM vrml web3d from unknowing first generation vrml designers and attempted to present it, resell it/ package it as their own for their commecial interests… the few “obsolete vrml” designers who caught this werent very happy…. and now when a rezzable or the core of LL future biz plans hold millions of pieces of work/content of others in hostage to their -motives– only then does it become “important”..;)
growing up isnt only about getting to drink and screw legally folks…;)
learn from history, even if its only 9 months old.:)
@Cube – Do you offer Cube3 interpretation courses? Sometimes I feel like I’m reading another language.
In any case, what you say sounds profound and really important, and of course hearkens back to the 90s as always, but I really can’t tell whether you think this is good or whatever.
Anyways, love ya – you always give me something to puzzle over.
On 08.05.09 Al said:
It is all meaningless.
Against TOS or not – it will be used (and certainly by REZZABLE).
Not until the viewer becomes proprietary. (no longer Open Source), all texture and prim data encrypted, and access to the server requiring a passkey obfuscated withing the compiled Viewer code, will there be any hope of content security.
Al – what I find interesting is the question of hitting the ’sweet spot’ in content security – because I’m going to take it as a given that there will never be 100% security, and so wonder whether there’s some sort of magic line where there’s “enough” security (and I don’t mean enough technology protection, I mean security as provided by: policy, enforcement, communication, and creation of social norms) that the remaining percentage of ‘rippers’ is a nuisance and damaging but out-weighed by a culture where content protection is far more the norm than its opposite.
On 08.05.09 cube3 said:
nope, no EZ lessons or cliff notes…
ya gotta work at the meaning..everything has a cost.
The “reality” of 3d content/IP and its value as “seen” by “vc funded programmers” is as current at 9 months ago or 9 years ago…. and only “seems” new in SL blogs 9 hrs ago.
Do i think what is good?
LL’s finally addressing “real” things?- Yes
All the time/money many spent again needlessly?- No;)
On 08.05.09 cube3 said:
“security sweetspot”
seems its no problem for many in 2d media. Or in 3d gaming. Or using so many services online for a decade.
owners of property put the protections on their property.
USER(slave) GEN biz plans to gather many eyeballs or offer some ’service” other than the creation of the content offered– will always err to allow the greatest distribution of that content, all to build their “brand equity” and “valuation” to the others in the same room as them.
notice BTW- YAHOO is now “officially” a MEDIA company now…lol
On 08.05.09 radar said:
“nope, no EZ lessons or cliff notes…
ya gotta work at the meaning..everything has a cost.”
Actually, it’s beholden of the person communicating to make sure people get the message in most of civilized society. Why would you expect someone to work at understanding you when you’re not willing to work at BEING understandable? Not a flame. Just an honest opinion.
The same thing applies to Rezzable, IMO. Why do they expect people to trust them that this is the right move when they weren’t willing to work with LL on it in the first place? Now that they’ve created an uproar, they’re suddenly telling everyone how it doesn’t matter because there’s no such thing as digital rights anyway.
Itazura Radio had it right on Coronaverse. They are going to make it open and are discounting the whole “builderbot as a service” idea because they know that there’s not enough of a market for LEGITIMATE use of the tool. Maybe a handful of people will ever need it, until there’s an SL-compatible (opensim based) world that content builders are migrating to in huge droves. Right now, that market doesn’t exist, I’m willing to bet. If there was a legitimate use, they’d try to do something with it which they couldn’t figure out how to do in SL in the first place, make some money.
On 08.06.09 cube inada said:
same thing for civilized folk?
YOU get to choose if what i offer has any meaning or requires a deeper examination for any value.
rezzable though attempted to affect you via actions that you had NO control/ or choice toward the actions they would/could take.
The Importance Of Identity When Doing Business in Virtual Worlds
Repost of my SL Revolution blog of February 4, 2009
I want to thank Dusan Writer for the inspiration for this blog post. I read Dusan’s Blog on a regular basis and the text of this blog post is actually my reply to his …post entitled: “I Am Not Really Me and I Probably Never Will Be: Avatars and Actual Identity.”
I share my real name/identity via my LinkedIn profile, with those I want to do business with. This type of disclosure is likely more important to people/businesses that are new to virtual worlds, as it allows them to quickly establish their “brands” value.
Doing business without the benefit of legal identities, has the potential to leave you vulnerable to a whole host of problems such as:
With respect to contracts; Benjamin Franklin said “an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.” In business, a single business dispute can ruin you. Written contracts are the “ounce of prevention” that can eliminate costly disputes. Although it may happen in the future, I know of no legal precedents for avatars to execute or defend enforceable contracts.
The tax issue is the growing 300lb (soon to be 800lb) gorilla in the room. It won’t be long before taxing authorities compel the reporting of Virtual World income. I consider it to already be an ethical requirement. If you want to deduct Virtual World expenses, you had better be prepared to identify the recipient, be it a business or individual, of your payments.
Copyright and IP issues are another area of growing concern. What if someone doing work for you “unintentionally” “borrows” IP from another company, goes MIA and the IP owner sues you? How do you subpoena someone you don’t know for your defense?
Protecting your ideas via non-disclosure agreements (NDAs) is another area where real identities are required. If you don’t require NDAs of people who do work for you, you are asking to have your ideas & Trade Secrets stolen.
I realize many of these arguments are philosophically distasteful. I regret that “business can no longer be run on a handshake and a gentleman’s agreement.” Whether we like it or not the reality is that knowing people’s real identities is important in today’s business world, even when that world is “Virtual.”
I recently attended a ThinkBalm event and wore a Group Title of my PW (Physical World) given name … aka Valiant Westland the entire time. I didn’t feel pressured to do this and it was great to connect via LinkedIn to many of my fellow presenters and other attendees.
On 08.07.09 ichabod Antfarm said:
If Flaubert hadn’t been Madame Bovary we never would have known Madame Bovary. I don’t know what we would have gotten in *her* place, perhaps *his* contact list.
Insofar as I have no interest in virtuality beyond (or beneath) its potential for aesthetic autonomy I can happily report “ichabod Antfarm, c’est moi.” It genuinely saddened me to read that you, Dusan, have somewhat, if not wholly, lost the ability to report the same of yourself.
Thank you Ichabod. That isn’t something that I’ve posted about before and it really deserves a far longer post rather than an off-handed mention. I’ve been struggling to find a way to articulate it without veering into the debate about augmentationism vs. immersionism, which I don’t think does justice to what I’ve discovered through my own personal journeys with avatar identity.
I was struck by a comment that followed Erica’s post by another participant:
“It is an interesting area as this plays to each individuals needs in communication and their personal neuro linguistic programming stack.”
Which echoes “Create Your Own Economy”, a book that I highly recommend, and which explores the influence and nature of the Internet against the backdrop of understanding neurodiversity and autism. It proposes that in an era of rapid information and dispersed community, that we would be well advised to look to neurodiversity and autistics as a way of understanding how we order information and express identity.
The author proposes that by looking at autism not as a disability but rather as an expression of neurodiversity that we might learn more about how we as people and a culture might thrive in this ‘information era’ and understand how we can more effectively frame our understanding of the change going on around us. He very specifically mentions Second Life and discusses on-line identity as an important means by which we overcome our neurological prejudices.
Perhaps at the end of the day, my avatar identity was an important vehicle by which I have been able to understand the many ways in which I frame my perspective in the world, often without realizing it, because it provides the opportunity to unshackle my social persona from how I think and feel and through that decoupling allows me to take a fresh look at the ways in which I order knowledge and experience.
I understand what Valiant is saying, but on the other hand we’re not talking here about contracts or IP rights or any of the rest of it….we’re talking about building interesecting areas of interest and exploration towards creating a more robust vision of what virtual worlds can do, where they’re headed, and how they can be ’sold’.
Sometimes, the best ideas will come from someone who has ‘gotten out of their skin’ and is able to think and create in ways which are only possible because their avatars have become a repository not just for forms of on-line identity, but for creative viewpoints that might be more difficult to express otherwise.
On 08.07.09 ichabod Antfarm said:
I very much believe that “augmentation versus immersion” is just another binary straight jacket that only some mighty act of Hegelianism will overcome so I very much look forward to your next post on the subject Then again, perhaps we overcome it by simply living it since life (second, or otherwise) rarely pays heed to the intellectual categories that supposedly organize it, or where it does, it does so in ways far subtler than our simple oppositions can express. Nevertheless, it is still fun to read and write about such weighty things.
As such, I’ve often thought about autism and “neuro-diversity” in the context of Second Life because I have encountered it often enough both in the world and *cough* on some other blogs and would appreciate a book on the subject that rises above *any* ideological position (assuming such a thing is possible!) It seems that Asperger’s Syndrome is the new schizophrenia; in a sense, the voice we created by refusing to listen to it. I suppose if you want to listen to Gould’s Goldberg’s you also have to put up with the humming. Mind you, I happen to enjoy the Sing Along to Bach thing
btw, I don’t think I own a “personal neuro linguistic programming stack”; if I did, I’m sure I wouldn’t know how to plug it in, let alone how to turn the contraption on.
On 08.07.09 ichabod Antfarm said:
Hmm, I was so busy responding to your post that I didn’t bother to read it. So,
“Sometimes, the best ideas will come from someone who has ‘gotten out of their skin’ and is able to think and create in ways which are only possible because their avatars have become a repository not just for forms of on-line identity, but for creative viewpoints that might be more difficult to express otherwise.”
Let me clarify, I would never propose that avatar identity be restricted to one’s physical identity, much like I would never insist that an artist or author use something other than a stage/pen name for their work. I also share the belief that a certain level of anonymity can be “liberating.”
My own first-hand experience as an “avatar” began when I was 15 and working as a bus-boy at a place called The Red Lion. The “duty” I looked forward to the most, was dressing up in a Red Lion costume, standing out by a busy road and attracting the attention of potential customers. It was completely liberating! I danced, cavorted and swung my tail, all in complete and joyous anonymity.
Who I was in the Red Lion costume was an honest express of “me.” However, when I went to apply for my first “real” job as an electronics salesman a year later, I didn’t go dressed as a lion. I wore the most professional clothing I had, and introduced myself with my given name.
The “Madame Bovarys” of the Virtual world certainly have a place, just as mimes, mascots, masquerade balls and Marilyn Monroes (Norma Jean Bakers) do in the PW (Physical World). I will continue to applaud their creative expression and even slip on the SL version the old “lion suit” (an 8′ tall winged knight)when I want to play.” But when it’s time to get work done, you’ll see me in SL as I am behind the keyboard, with shoes polished, shirt pressed and a LinkedIn profile and identity that shows I mean business.
Ichabod – if I can, I’ll try to ramble on about it this weekend, this issue certainly has me thinking (again!). Wish I had more time now to respond – maybe more later.
Valiant – you press your shirt and polish your shoes to log in to a virtual world? I think you’re missing 95% of the value proposition. HAHAHAHA.
I’m going to add another comment here that I made on the ThinkBalm thread which was in response to the idea that these issues arise primarily from virtual worlds. This is slightly edited:
I have to argue with the claim that these issues arise from virtual worlds. Perhaps it’s my perspective – a large portion of my clients are in the health field. Issues of identity and transparency are critical issues in this field, and we grapple with this frequently.
Supporting a community of individuals with HIV for example, or patients who have breast cancer and want to participate in on-line forums, or asking physicians to participate in collaborative efforts to ‘fix’ the healthcare system – we approach these challenges with a knowledge that proxy identities are often not only preferred but are often legally required in the absence of HIPAA or other compliance statutes.
So, the concept of identity proxies is, first, not unique to virtual worlds.
Second, I would propose that one of the biggest challenges facing enterprise today, especially in light of the new push by the FCC Consumer Protection Branch to regulate the ability of companies to collect real life identity information and to collate that against other data pools, is the challenge of understanding the new concepts of identity portfolios and how consumers and employees are expressing themselves in different forums, including on-line.
I’m really surprised when I hear people claiming that we’re moving towards a more transparent world in which our real life identities are fully portable across the various identity ‘repositories’ that we create on-line. It may be true that more information about us is being put on-line, but this is coupled with a trend towards more ways in which we can partition parts of our identity portfolios.
I may use Facebook with friends, and LinkedIn for business and there may be overlap between the information, but more and more individuals are constructing separate personas for themselves in order to feel enabled against the onslaught of corporate control of our data.
THIS, in fact, is the natural evolution:
- As more data about ourselves is put online, corporations have more of an incentive to use that data for commercial purposes
- In the face of light regulation, this data can be misused or, at the least, make people feel uncomfortable
- As a consequence, individuals increasingly turn to ways in which they can mask or partition parts of their identity so that they maintain some level (however illusory) of control over what is known about them and by whom.
When I talk to clients, I talk to them about how it will become increasingly difficult to find their “true customers” – that they need to look at identity proxies as an important component to how they think about who their customer is.
…..I’d like to be on the side of looking back from the future and being able to say: “Yes, we saw this coming, but I tried to lend some small voice to our individual right to who we are, and how we wish to express that, and in what ways that expression is formulated, and that while corporations continued their push to maintain the status quo approach to understanding identity, I was willing to both push back a little, but also to point out that in many ways, they are missing the point, that they closed off an avenue to the future which the rest of us were already living.”
And not to get toooo far out there – but these issues will become even more complicated when our on-line identities are fueled by both our individual self-expression and automated intelligence. The ‘avatars of the future’, whether in virtual worlds or on-line generally, will perform through a combination of both “live” control and artificial intelligence.
The identity questions will only get more confusing, in other words, as time goes on. I personally think that attempts to create this tight coupling of “identity” with “online persona” is mistaken in that it neglects how this stuff will REALLY turn out.
Finally – I admit that maybe I’m crazy. Or maybe my clients are. I don’t negate the challenges people have advocating for or selling virtual worlds, and I realize that the easiest thing to do is say “yeah, of course you see the ‘real person’”…but I find that answering those questions in another way actually opens up more opportunities for me, but maybe that’s just the kind of discussion I manage to get with my customers, either that or they all think I’m crazy and just don’t want to tell me, um, in person.
How ironic: I’m reading Madame Bovary for my local women’s book club this month. So far: excellent book.
On 08.07.09 cube inada said:
Ugh.
fake ID in realife interactions is all for the fakers benefit.its a POWER play. nothing shiny here.
identity revelation is about trust and cosequenses… and if you havent noticed, linden lab/SL and its TAO and all its “fanz” and mechanisms, really DONT show much trust or giving a damn about the others affects. You read Malabys outsider view of the mirror maze that the tech culture or any “no overview-no consequenses” system brings.
bring on the white holopod machines to stop (1909)..:),
the DELUSION that humans havent mediated their environment for 50k years, and that a 3d pixelated “mask” can provide any lessons beyond those of a “wooden mask” is a true sign of MIPS.. media induced pyschosis.
Dusan,where did this posts ideology come from? Are you reading too much fake press. too much half truths blogged as half a reality ? do your examples have fact checking- any evidence, behind them.
I doubt a “thinkbalm” is needed or will truly provide any “new” answers..lol but in this case. they dont have to be “new” and “shiny”.. they are just making good assumptions using 10k years of human interactions as a path to balance.
the irony of the “virtual worlds-engage” conferneces in NY in 2006-7? being at the jewish museum never ceases to amaze me.
Cube – um, not sure what you mean by “where did this post’s ideology come from” and half truths and whatnot. Think of it simply as one approach to policy”
“We’re a professional group looking at virtual worlds and we believe all our members should reveal their real identities”.
They can do that. I have no issue with their right to do so. And it is guided by a business ideology I suppose.
But it opens up that fascinating tangent into issues of identity which have been going on, as you point out, for 1000s of years. I’ve never claimed these issues are new, I just think that on-line identity is bringing them to the fore again and in often new (in the sense of mediated in new ways) and fascinating ways.
On 08.07.09 cube3 said:
howdy dusan,
1. as to “half truths” I point to the “avatars” actions/activities etc you claim offer “insight” or “something”– without real information the only “truth” is what you believe or perceive, and thats not a real foundation for interaction in any honest way. Online “avatars” doing this/that etc lay claims everday…and the reality behind the claims or how they got the “deal” are usaully grounding in very old ways that dont require any new media examination at all..:)
2.for you to “guess” in your writings that a business ideology equates with a civic ideology is the issue im getting at. if anything was shown by the LL experiment, it was that they dont mix most-”all?” of the time.
3. the “gamerz” ideologies that today gets, whitehouse validity via these folk at conferences:to equate game methods/goals to civic methods/goals is also the issue im getting at. it seems that the only choices in the blog culture your speaking to- and from is- CORPORATE or TOYS/GAMEZ for virtuality…nothing else can be valid..
Has television already mediated the tech socierty to that of only ENTERTAINMENT drones…Why cant anything but a VIDEO GAME be better if difficult to aquire.(last posts question to a post i made)
Can we accept “corporate ethics” as an oxymoron today as easily as “blogger journalist”.?
Im asking not about hammers seeing nails, but about hammers deluding themselves and others into seeing screws as the better target.
One thing that makes me think “I will never ever sign up to any programme of this sort” is this – that Linden Labs has a *very bad record* when it comes to disclosure of RL identity.
Their current procedure regarding the DMCA, for instance, is to automatically disclose the RL identity of the defendant to any DMCA claim filer. This is not at all required by law, they are doing that because they want to. Under what other circumstances might one expect one’s RL identity to be disclosed?
And, you know, anybody who is not concerned about that – augmentationist or immersionist – is either impregnably defended by lawyers, ignorant or stupid. In other names I moderate bulletin boards, and even that can get one death threats and unwanted phone calls and visits.
On 08.07.09 cube3 said:
“its always facinating until someone puts an eye out..;)” anon the avatr
[...] who was instrumental in building Second Life, left under, um, prompting from Philip Rosedale. In fact, his employment was terminated by e-mail as I [...]
Anyone who doesn’t see this as an important issue is probably so fixed in their personna that any deviation from the Myth of the Integrated Personality is just to frightening for them to contemplate.
Why can’t I do business under a variety of names? I certainly know how to socialise thus.
I am no more likely to rob or cheat someone under my real name… look at Bernard Madoff….that was his real name…20billion US.
On 08.07.09 Avataaaaaaaaaaar said:
Petition: Bring back Cory to scrap the code and start over.
On 08.07.09 cube inada said:
uh, its been suggested he was a sociopathic personality.
so now sociopathic and autistic brainsets are to be the norm? ?
the myth of the intergrated personality?– you mean the average normal socially functioning folk?
and when corporations do alot of business, under many names, thats usally to hide something–
So can we now also think of corey as just another programmer?;) can we leave the myth of the integrated game god and move on?;)
I’ve been banging on the content protection drum for about 1.5 years now and while I am glad to hear it finally being addressed, LL and other providers of tools and products that FACILITATE the creation of content need to be careful here. From a legal point of view stating that people can’t take the content they create from Second Life could easily been seen as an Anti-Trust issue. Here’s a definition of Anti-Trust and Restraint of Trade from a legal stand point:
Restraint of Trade http://www.answers.com/topic/restraint-of-trade
Contracts or combinations that tend, or are designed, to eliminate or stifle competition, create a Monopoly, artificially maintain prices, or otherwise hamper or obstruct the course of trade as it would be carried on if it were left to the control of natural economic forces.
As used in the Sherman Anti-Trust Act (15 U.S.C.A. § 1 et seq.), unreasonable restraints of trade are illegal per se and interfere with free competition in business and commercial transactions. Such restraint tends to restrict production, affect prices, or otherwise control the market to the detriment of purchasers or consumers of goods and services. A restraint of trade that is ordinarily reasonable can be rendered unreasonable if it is accompanied by a Specific Intent to achieve the equivalent of a forbidden restraint.
Combination in Restraint of Trade http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Combination+in+Restraint+of+Trade
An illegal compact between two or more persons to unjustly restrict competition and monopolize commerce in goods or services by controlling their production, distribution, and price or through other unlawful means.
While I greatly understand the texture and sculpty artist’s worries over content protection in their particular business model, their announcements about restricting their use to SL only can not legally be applied to purchases before restrictions were stated and have to be included in the product and clearly announced at the time of purchase. Furthermore, if someone creates textures or sculpties design to assist content creators in making their goods and sells them full rights, the suggestion that they then have the right to restrict a creators choice of selling venue is probably not going to stand up to a court of law. That would be like an artist buying oil paints and reading in the small print that they can only sell it through the store they bought the paint in. Its simply too far reaching and unsustainable in a court of law, which I am sure LL’s legal department is well aware of.
Yes, the texture and sculpt artist have a right to restrict their products from being sold by themselves as a product, but they don’t have the right to tell people who use them, where and how they can sell them.
Yes, LL gives themselves equal rights to any content created on their grid, but to say that gives them a right to restrict it to the Second Life grid is again, too far reaching legally speaking and won’t stand up in even the most light inspection from a court of law.
LL’s IP rights stance has been heavily criticized for years by corporations, and one of the major reasons to not invest too much. While LL has fought to be looked at a simply a 3D hosting solution, but their stance on IP rights belied that. When was the last time your web hosting company reserved equal IP rights to your website and it potential revenues? GeoCities might come to mind for some, but their demise should be a warning to LL on this stance. They’ve been implored repeatedly for years to switch to a simple license to distribute that wouldn’t step on anyone’s toes and would make it perfectly legal to conduct their business.
Ultimately what needs to happen is a reality check here. NO ONE CAN OWN THE 3D WEB AND MAKE NO MISTAKE, THAT IS WHAT IS BEING BORN FROM ALL THIS. A grid war will ensue in the next two years and LL rightfully wants a stake in that. That’s fair and understandable. But to restrict a company or content provider’s ability to expand and compete outside their garden walls is just not legally sound and can only further erode their support from the community.
The solution here is allow this thing to grow and embrace the competition that comes of that. Everyone agrees LL and SL have made some real sustainable changes over the last year to reach out and listen to the community. But, having said that can we honestly say this would have happened without some healthy competition in the horizon? I thought this was LL’s intent when they released their client open source community? This can be done – protection of content without restricting its expansion onto other trusted grid systems, while still respecting the rights of content providers. We all just have to be willing to think outside the box on how to sell and control the distribution of our products and work together to settle disputes these mechanical solutions can’t address. And BTW, a simple change in how a DMCA is process is not going to achieve that IMHO.
On 08.08.09 Prokofy Neva said:
Cube is right, that this issue surfaces periodically and everybody gets into a terrible clutch about it.
I realize that certain church ladies get into a dither about whose identity is what and want to force everybody to where those HELLO MY NAME IS BUD tags.
I walk around them. It’s not true that suppression of RL names is only related to entertainment. I have done business for years on this basis. There are people I pay to build things whose real names I have no idea about, nor could I find their locations. Sometimes I pay in Lindens, sometimes a PayPal that may only be a gmail name that’s made up.
I’ve had two building companies rip me off, one by building a mall on commission and then copying and plunking it down for another rentals agent and charging him as if he had developed it from scratch, too. I happened to stumble on to it flying around. Done all the time. Had another pair of guys take a down payment and flake. Happens all the time. I got better and feeling for the iffy ones and walking around them. It works the other way too, people ordering builds and not paying. Done all the time. Yet we have built this world. It isn’t the trauma everyone expects.
I’ve had a guy script an invention I conceived once and he turned out to be 16 or 17 and eventually got booted over to the teen grid. I’ve had people sign up to volunteer and do beautiful things and then I find they likely died in RL. And so on. It’s just how it is. Deal with it. It’s *how it is*. Don’t like it? Then, build in real life, I guess? Like Donald Trump.
Some of the nastiest people I’ve dealt with in SL are the people whose RL names are available even on their profile, or on their blogs. Unlike the skittish Andrew Keen who freaks at anonymity online, and believes abuse only comes with anonymity, I have to say that those assholes who had RL names were even worse than the anonymous nice people I met in SL who were sweetie pies. Some of the most solid, best people in SL with great reputations are those types of avataric personas you never get behind, because you don’t need to. Of course, you may wake up some day and discover they have gone Ginko, but of course, that happens in RL, too. I had a friend whose husband of 25 years just ran off with a barely 20 year old. No Second Life involved lol.
Humanity has been putting on masks through its entire existence.
Rememer the Duke, in Measure for Measure, when he disguises himself and returns to spy:
“Now shall we see/if power change purpoes/what our seemers be.”
indeed.
On 08.08.09 Maggie Darwin (@MaggieL) said:
An “actuator” is a physical device controllable from the digital realm. Like a robot arm, for example. Easy to get hypnotized by MediaLabSpeak… miss real words.
I have been (half-heartedly, I admit) trying to focus for 2-1/2 years. Second Life is so vast, so interesting, and has so many distractions (Oooooo, sparklies! … Ooooo, art! … Ooooo, interactive content! … etc.) that it is very easy to ramble – verbally, metaphorically, and actually. Also, um, virtually. Good luck!
How many tabs do I have up? Between six and ten, depending on the day. =D I think the people attracted to virtual worlds tend to be dedicated multi-taskers. And you don’t ramble, Dusan—you have a wide variety of interests and experiences which are reflected in your writing style.
/me wanders idly off following a little wisp of some sort that just floated by
On 08.08.09 cube inada said:
there is no CORE idea of SL systems as virtuality. thats should be apparent by what LL is and what they done for a decade.
LL- the business,morphs every few months to sustsain itself and self corrects for its existance not as any society, bit only as corporate buisness entity(avatar) sanctioned by the state of CA.usa..
Its expression,its product/service is based on only one ideology of how to use technology.
Virtuality- avatarzation SL style is not based on any past social lessons for a balanced society, it is directed from tech lessons for execution of actions and pyramid economics for its monetary survival.
The “concept” that SL or virtuality or technology as a whole offers any “new or better” ways of social interactions seems a falicy.
NO New forms of trust, respect, power plays/ social outcasting, or human inter-actions have been expressed. For any Second Life act, the truth is its aleady been expressed in real life , and for centuries.
The ONLY change technology offers is in its EASE and its WIDENESS and SPEED of affects that allow for the same human individual and GROUP identities to be considered as valid at a particular place or time and within a particular set of experiences learned.
I await some evidence that the affect of “avatar identity” leads to a better expression of the human psyche.
Until the “shiny of technology” is removed from our latest “offsprings” we wont truly treat them or ourselves fairly.
On 08.08.09 Discord said:
*wonders if he ought to review his profile* … and I agree with Doreen. Having been exposed to more than just a little bit of ramb…er…wide variety of interests, there does seem to be a method to the madness. It’s not lost or dissociated, just occasionally distracted. I see that as a good thing. If everyone was so totally focused on what was directly in front of them, things like art, music, stories, and other vitally human expressions would be so BORING. It’s these little tracers and sparkles in the corners of our eyes that keep life interesting.
I am intrigued by Valiant’s account of his experience of being in the Lion suit. The following description of putting on the ironed shirt and polished shoes sounds to me like adoption of a ‘fake’ identity for business purposes. Does the ‘real name’ (for what they are worth) make any difference if the individual is masking their identity to make a good impression by wearing, say, a suit?
In many countries it is relatively trivial to change one’s name. Why would there be any greater or lesser transparency if I used my legal name after changing it?
Transparency and trust *must* run hand in hand with working environments of any kind.
While I do not have any problems with folks who wish to protect their identities in a personal setting, by and large I have run in to *huge* issues with people who have not been transparent about their identity, availability or trustworthiness. It often leads to work not being done on time, extreme difficulty contacting said individual (it’s as easy as not logging in, ignoring email or clicking the invis box, after all), and leads to a *lot* of lost time and opportunity.
While identity is not the sole factor towards developing trust it is at the very least something to go on, as Valiant brought up in an earlier comment, towards developing accountability on both sides of the table. The willingness for both parties to trust each other is key in developing a positive and responsible working relationship.
By that same token, companies employing individuals who may wish to keep their true identities unpublicized should respect those wishes… but I think you would be hard pressed to find a company seeking to employ workers in any field who refused to provide RL name and contact info. Expecting such would be much like walking up to an office for employment, dropping off a resume with a fake name and address on it, and then calling back later to ensure they’d received a resume from ‘SexyBimbo21 Hot’.
Yes, we should all be able to work within our ‘Second Lives’ – but that doesn’t mean that all social, governmental and business conventions should be tossed out the window.
Yes, some of the ‘bigger names’ can get away with – and indeed market themselves based on – their avatar identities. But these are few and far between and I can guarantee you that at base level, they MUST deal with real world identity for tax purposes and DO NOT go around claiming they should be addressed by some made up name that holds no legality.
On 08.09.09 Aki Shichiroji said:
@Ordinal – As an addendum to your comment about DMCAs disclosing RL info to DMCA filers, I have filed three DMCAs in as many weeks as well as numerous times in the past. Not once ever – much less recently – have I ever received RL info about the people I filed against.
I *have* heard of similar issues with XstreetSL, prior to transfer to LL, and in such a case it involved not the RL info of the defendant, but the filer. I do not know if such continues to be the case under the site’s new management.
On 08.09.09 Aki Shichiroji said:
i should clarify – RL info of the filer was supposedly revealed upon counter-claim.
This is an exciting development, that a Linden launch of a new portal for business is coming this Fall. I want to learn more! I’ve always felt that groundbreaking work is being done in 3D virtual worlds, and that very soon, 2D Web will be a thing of the past except where it’s given a cameo in 3D Web. Prokofy, I read your comments and will have to read them a few more times to fully grasp what you are saying. For those of us which aren’t always reading about this topic, can you explain a bit more about what you mean, especially in the following paragraph of your first comment?
You said, “The debate around Beth Noveck’s visit, which is partly about some roleplayers’ saying cynically, ‘why bother with VWs that aren’t ready when nobody wants their fantasy invaded’ to my more alarmed concern that ‘government already welded social media right into the White House, look out, VWs at least prototype if not get welded too’ to a Linden saying ominously ‘I will delete you’. Sigh.”
I feel like you are referring to a lot of inside jokes which I can’t possibly understand unless you explain them.
This is a long and interesting discussion. I am careful about my identity because we have yet to invent a proper way to handle identity in the realm of the internet.
Just to take a tiny bite out of what I am meaning… I see people falling all over themselves to pour their personal info and artifacts into facebook, who then owns this information that before would have required a private investigator to obtain. In this type of identity scenario, the user has limited control.
We simply do not have a good model for identity. My RL identity does not need or want attribution for what I do as Pais. I enjoy Pais having his own identity. In a way, his eventual identity to a responsible and legally eligible person is repudiated through the account with LL, however, my trust of them is limited.
When I saw Prok’s quote of Duke I thought about how I had to adjust to anonymity in SL. I was so used to introducing myself as a package of age, address, where i grew up, my education, my vocation, and so forth. However, all these are simply trappings that may or may not reflect our true selves. The challenge, as I saw it, was to use the avatar and text chat to channel myself without using the crutches of the RL to create that identity and personality for those I met.
Again, Linden Labs, along with the 3DTLC are positioning virtual worlds as a means for cost-savings within companies rather than as a competitive advantage and revenue generator. Well, this is a striking argument, but fundamentally flawed to date I believe. I’m still not convinced that there are cost savings to organizations to using virtual worlds for dispersed team meetings, or other uses as a learning tool. No one has addressed the level of effort it would take to install a secure “simulator”, configure it, maintain it, training programs for employees, hardware upgrades for workstations and redundant servers for hosting, and additional vertical real-estate in server racks, additional power consumption, etc.
What do they do once all this is up and there are no in-world stores to upgrade your hair or clothing? Everyone walks around without the ability to have their own unique identities in these “secure” environments. Well, the company could pay a bunch of developers in real US dollars to supply them, ring the cash register again.
I do believe however that all these concerns can and will be addressed. But real economic growth comes not from spending less money and finding ways to cut costs (like job losses). Technology should continue to allow us to be more efficient, better producers, and use technology for competitive advantage to build our top line. While I am an interested bystander in LL’s pursuit of SL in the workspace, I think they are missing the better strategic alternative; to create the SL platform into a competitive collaboration tool. Right now, Cisco and WebEx have LL beat hands down on collaboration and virtual meeting spaces in a package requiring lower-end workstations.
On 08.11.09 cube3 said:
so if you are not your experiences and what you do based on them.? Who are you? Probably not someone worth knowing..;)
think about it.
amazing how “character” and “Character” are now beyond difference.
These blogs have become like every Twilight Zone episode realized.
Dusan, you should try to drive down to Silly Valley while youre here. SF is just a “set or fascade” the reality is 30 miles south. Go beyond tourist mode:)
I don’t know if I can agree with either land or attention being the only scarce resource in SL. Land is certainly not scarce at the moment, and for the right price, you can have LL create an entire new sim of your own. I get the argument about attention, but Dusan’s advice on how to get people to “look at me” and the number of visitors daily to certain areas doesn’t seem to support the idea of attention scarcity, just the differences in marketing success or value proposition.
It would seem that resources are the scarcity within SL. This is supported by having 1,000,000 chairs, but not being able to rez them where ever you wanted. LL has created this scarcity because of real-world hardware and software limitations. With the number of avatars on mainland set at 40 and discussion of limiting scripting resources and numbers on sims as well, I think you’ve both missed the mark. But this is not to say that both posts were not thoroughly insightful to read.
Ah, Maslow, a model as Prokofy above put it, “attention to organic needs are more basic”, compared to virtual worlds is highly accurate. And I see where Dusan has attempted to draw his own hierarchy of needs in the virtual world to support a new business model concept. But I’m struggling with all the layers but belonging and self-actualization. SL seems like it is laden with the need to belong. Identities are exaggerated to make it clear as to who or what group the avatar is identifying with. And the self-actualization (cross-platform integration) really could be the holy grail for LL and programmers with a mind to see this opportunity (either through tools, platform, or per transaction). But all the rest there, it’s based on Maslow’s original design. Doesn’t work for me.
Ok, yes, you could have used overlapping circles, but then a good portion of your post’s ideas would have collapsed because there would be no more hierarchy. A minor point really, I don’t mean to harp on that one. Your points came across to me loud and clear.
Finally, business models, erm, successful business models involve a good deal of strategic planning, and marketing for me, always falls short in this area. I don’t think it’s nearly enough to get noticed, offer up the value propostion, and then be followed by a transaction. Sounds great, easily copied. In addition to the marketing of new ideas for financial gain, we also need to build barriers that limit our model’s reproducability. This comes in the form of inventing our own new technologies or efficient methods, protecting the costs of our inputs and materials, and making it very difficult for competition to compete in the same market spaces (exclusive distribution contracts and the like). Oh, let’s not forget removing the buyer’s bargaining power. Dusan, I am new to your blogs, but look forward to reading through the rest of your posts. Thank you.
On 08.11.09 cube inada said:
nope- takes some work.. some effort.;) – but remember the “real” DisneyWorld isnt the Main Street Level, its the beige corridors below street level.
[...] By a Thread: In the Land of the Technolibertarian – Dusan Writer [...]
On 08.12.09 Doreen Garrigus said:
Dusan, it’s not about liking Starbuck’s coffee. There was a study done on commercially made coffees and caffeine content. Apparently, Starbuck’s had 300 milligrams of caffeine per shot of espresso, and the next closest competitor was Tully’s, at 170 milligrams per shot. I always go to Starbucks. It’s the only way to make the headache go away. For the record, I don’t even like coffee…
Come to think of it, Second Life is a little like Starbucks in that regard. There are a whole bunch of things not to like, but when it comes right down to it, the closest competitor isn’t even close. Nobody else gives users the kind of access that Second Life does. Nobody else allows for a fully participatory experience. Nobody.
I had been wondering, idly, in that abstract, cerebral, comfortable-with-technology way that I have, how we, as a species, were going to integrate these new, world-altering technologies into our lives.
Each new technology required greater and greater abstraction, making it more and more remote from the interests of the average person. Most people are concrete and experiential. They have no affinity for code. I saw a split beginning to occur in our world, with technology becoming a tool of a minority with disproportionate power—like the Morlocks and the Eloi.
But Second Life puts a face on it. It yanks technology down out of the ether and puts it back into the hands of, well, everybody. I would hesitate to say it will save the world, but it is profoundly democratizing. It is, as you put it, tech that doesn’t _feel_ like tech. It folds our human strengths back into the batter.
“Your world. Your imagination.” Oh yes. Every last messy, emotional, impulsive, hyperbolic bit of it. For everyone.
On 08.12.09 Just Some Guy said:
Actually, Second Life /is/ a great brand. Maybe you have your own vision of what Second Life (and the metaverse) is about Dusan, but that’s not necessarily what either the rest of us or Linden may have in mind.
In terms of great brands, Second Life already has many of the hallmarks of the greatest: A fervent, dedicated audience that has (and will) stick with it. Consider some of the crap SL residents have had to put up with over the last 5 years or so – and yet they stay: Care to name any other brands that inspire that kind of loyalty? Hmmm….Apple?
Whatever course Second Life takes to its own greatness, let’s hope it isn’t distracted by armchair “experts” telling them what they need to be.
On 08.12.09 IYan Writer said:
Wow, excellent stream-of-consciousness post.
Also spot on IMHO. It’s move it or lose it time for LL. Staying still will inevitably consign them to irrelevance.
I think anyone who has a mac, knows that there is not widespread support for the platform. There are plenty of PC users ready and willing to create the content for this game, and I am looking forward to doing so. Besides, who buys mac for gaming and wouldn’t be much better off using a windows based PC for that purpose?
Hmmm – tateru – not sure I entirely agree, mainly because I wonder what the name recognition for Linden Lab is…I always think of them and they’re often mentioned in the context of “Linden Lab, makers of Second Life”.
But maybe I don’t understand the context – you’re saying the Lab has a clear brand identity and SL doesn’t is that why?
If that’s the case, I agree, and I suppose that’s my point. If SL itself doesn’t do a better job articulating a “brand identity/aspiration” as opposed to a “platform name”, say, then it can have tons of momentum but risks going the way of AOL or something.
@JSG – I’m not sure what part of my vision is in conflict with the Lab or residents but regardless I totally agree that SL has all the HALLMARKS of greatness. And heaven forbid I’m an armchair branding consultant – I’m just making some observations and voicing my own opinion, I’m not asking for the keys to the Lab.
On 08.12.09 Doreen Garrigus said:
Dusan, do you ever find yourself stopping to stare at an object in real life, trying to figure out how many prims it took to make it?
On 08.12.09 cube inada said:
livin large in River City..lol
Brands need to reivent themselves to new audiences every few years. thats what great brands do.
IBM did it from the office to home
Apple from “pictures” to “music” to “phones”
AOL, Yahoo, and Google will not do this. though googles fate is still up in the air, all depending when the “pyramid” that felled AOL/ Yahoo- web advertising rates/schemes/ROI – fails again to do anything for those vc brands paying for it:) at that point google will have to demand its junior entitle users of free- to PAY for tools…..
or the house of cards will fail…. just like Netscape and AOL before…in their day..lol they WERE the brands of the wisdom of the crowds….
so much for another SF myth:)
[...] and anonymity online August 12, 2009 There is a vigourous debate going on at the moment on Dusan Writer’s blog and elsewhere, related to ThinkBalm’s policy on the use of real life name versus anonymous [...]
Cube – you just KNEW I popped in the AOL and Netscape references just for you.
Yes, companies need to reinvent themselves. But it’s a kind of “Built to Last” thing.
To quote from the book:
“”A visionary company,” they wrote, “doesn’t simply balance between preserving a tightly held core ideology and stimulating vigorous change and movement; it does both to the extreme.”"
So, sure, IBM reinvented itself, but it maintained its tightly held core ideology. Same with Apple.
For the first, “Technology Working”, say, and for the second, “Simplifying Life’s Experiences” maybe.
Core ideologies. You can practically TASTE it for both Apple and IBM. I have no idea what it was for AOL or Yahoo or Netscape and that’s the problem.
So while companies should stimulate vigorous change (and heaven knows Linden Lab is good at that), this must be coupled with tightly held ideologies.
So what’s SLs?
Oh…and while we’re on the Built to Last thing, here’s more of their list from ‘excellent companies’:
“The authors discovered that the visionary companies did certain things very differently from their duller rivals, things that in large part were more about the internal than the external and had little to do with technology or number-crunching. Among these were having “cultlike cultures”; adhering to an ideology that went beyond the simple pursuit of profits; relying on homegrown management; focusing on creating a lasting organization — called “clock building,” as opposed to “time telling”; and having the ability to see things not as either-or propositions (the “genius of the ‘and,’ ” in the authors’ words, as opposed to the “tyranny of the ‘or’ “).”
I agree that they need to simplify the viewer significantly. As currently presented, SL is not a tool for the masses. It’s for the techies…and near-techies. It needs an information architecture overhaul to reach my mom.
I’m not sure 2010 isn’t too late for what you suggest, especially considering the competition on the horizon from both the Blue Mars-types and the open sourcers.
Until then, I’ll just keep twisting prims and watching performers from all parts of the globe.
On 08.12.09 Metacam Oh said:
I agree, I relate Second Life to, say Internet… I think Lindens make or break is whether are able to be the ICANN of the 3d world, or they just would like to be remained a closed service like AOL or Prodigy.
They should be heading toward a direction where like Open Sim you can host your own servers, but Linden Lab/Second Life is the method of registration/payment/oversight
If millions come into SL right now Dusan, would SL hold up over the stress?
On 08.12.09 cube3 said:
Exactly- What is the “real” TAO of Linden?
Im not sure how many times youve been to SF or worked here, but whats said and done, and whats meant to be said and done, usually are not the same here.:)
Malaby found it…it was found in whats NOT said, not what is:)
Your diary in SF sounds much like my “report” back to NYC when i came out here to look- to move west in 1995 at the birth of the 3dweb and online web1.0 bubbles…..:)
I believe that when Second Life (or any other virtual world for that matter) becomes synonomous with Dreaming and just as easy-to-access and just as ubiquitous then it will become a great brand, just as Coke is synonomous with soft drink, IBM with computers, Apple with graphic interfaces (or music or phones, Starbucks with coffee (an it is awful coffee) and MacDonalds with food (hamburgers).
But when it does will I still remember it in the morning?
I think the Homestead fiasco was definitely far more a detriment than a benefit; setting folks up to get comfy with a full region, then pulling the rug out from under them… only to offer them back that rug at an increased price.
I sincerely doubt the grandfathered price is going to carry through past a year, even though LL’s had a history of grandfathering full regions in to updated programs (like upgrading class 3s to 4s, 4s to 5s). So unless things have changed significantly by then, I think we can probably see a lot of unhappy and homeless folks by July of ‘10.
Hi Dusan – this is just such a great post! Gives me lots to think of in prep for speaking at SLCC on saturday. You really captured a big idea in that concept of ‘humanizing’ computing. I’ve thought about that before and I agree that is probably the right way to think about a big brand around the whole Virtual World idea.
I was recently reminded of just how real and important that ‘humanizing’ element is while helping 26 local educators from schools in Cabarrus County, North Carolina, learn to get started and find their own value in Second Life. (Julie LaChance even brought cupcakes for their rez day.) When we showed pictures of meeting SL friends at Disney or in New York or at ISTE/NECC they really lit up, something that is impossible to see in a purely virtual workshop session, by the way (Linden Labs needs to hire Juanita).
I have often said how much I dislike the name ‘Second Life.’ This is just life in different forms. When most people see that, they buy in and later realize the value of disconnecting from reality for a bit perhaps.
Great post Dusan. Obviously a lot of thought behind it.
On 08.13.09 Cincia Singh said:
The bots aren’t gone, they’ve just morphed a bit. Now you will find aimlessly wandering herds of bots moving through an otherwise vacant sim instead of bot farms at 3000m.
I agree with Aki that there is more Homestead drama coming as the 1 yr anniversary of the debacle comes around.
And LL has wonderful figures to boast about an economy as long as you don’t parse out the zero and 1L transactions, the Zyngo transactions, and the transactions by people pretending to be “day-traders” trying to turn a profit by moving L$’s between alt accounts and different L$ providers.
Remember the old adage; if it looks too good to be true, it probably is.
On 08.13.09 Merlynn said:
I look at the stats released by SL and shake my head in wonder… in my own personal experience, my two-year-old store has just had its worst quarter ever, after almost two years of small, steady, almost predictable growth.
I can’t help but wonder what exactly these transactions really indicate since I’ll bet a good percentage are main-account-to-alt-account transactions and don’t really mean anything except money is moving, but not really changing hands.
Bots are NOT gone, as I personally see a herd of them every time I go to pay my tier for my store… as long as ’some’ are allowed, no matter what good their purpose is supposed to be, then they will never be gotten rid of. I personally think we should ban model bots, and give those jobs to real avi’s… that how economy works, isn’t it? This ‘all for me” attitude is ruining SL.
dang, dusan, you were caffeinated when you wrote this w/r/t Starbucks, it reminds me of the best/worst that someone said to sum up McDonalds: “[no matter where you are and visit a McDonalds] you know what you’re getting”.
As I was reading between the lines of your looking at SF and trying to make sense of it, you had a frame of reference, a collection of expectations, and you were holding that up to the immersive reality of now and trying to see what did and didn’t fit.
You are also playing with another kind of frame of reference, looking at histories of other technologies and companies that try to package and sell them, and compare that to the unfolding of virtual world technology under the LL/SL brand. You’re like a surfer who’s been studying the waves and how they come in, and trying to extrapolate that knowledge while sitting on your board in the bay, hoping to read them as they come in and start to form, so you can be in the right spot at the right time to catch a big one and have a bitchin ride.
You’re obviously in a mellow, grooved mood to not rip on Malcom Gladwell as you talk about tipping points
As I think about the inculturation of virtual worlds into our mainstream of interaction, I was pondering a conversation I had last night with one of my in-world friends. He’s lost most all of his interest in SL, saying for him, “the game is played out” (The metaphorical irony i saw in that was that it isn’t a game, per se…).
So as I looked at your blog about the financial report, and you and the comments were wanting to tease out some real meaning in the rather vague metrics, I have another kind to add… it seems to me, the accounts that are oldest and active are those who have developed a vested interest, mostly of a business kind, that keeps them active. It would be interesting to be able to measure and understand the excitement and interest levels of people over time. I saw one of the anthropologists talking about trying to get a handle on the dynamics of social groups, for instance, how they form, attract members, and what the life cycle of that is like in a virtual world compared to in other venues of our lives.
What I suspect is “your world; your imagination” only works as long as one is inspired to imagine, build, sell, or own. Unless SL fills some particular need for us that nothing else delivers, why stay? What is the types of life cycles of user interest, and what does that tell us about the potential horizons for this technology?
Nice! How come my computer doesn’t display Second Life that good?
Hmmm. Well I’m not entirely sure Kabalyero – can’t say it’s my skill as a photographer although having my sim on permanent sunset adds nice lighting.
Mind you I also maximized all the settings and then find myself complaining about how slow things can be to rez, but when all my graphics settings are at high and my draw distance is 400 meters I’ve got no one but myself to blame.
[...] This is in follow-up to the recent economic analysis which I commented on here. [...]
[...] I continue to map out my own impressions of the Metaverse Roadmap it’s interesting to think of the implications of [...]
you’re in trouble for not informing me that you had a blog.
They completely ignored OpenSim in all of that for some reason. Go figure.
Yeah, go figure! Ignoring OpenSim is kind of like Microsoft trying desperately to ignore Linux.
A more charitable view might be that they’re trying to remain agnostic – if you mention OpenSim it’s like the Fed twitching his nose the wrong way when someone says “raise interest rates”. I’m more inclined to think they’re hoping to drive the standards however and are hoping that OpenSim will come a beggin’ and that early acknowledgement would put too much power in *gasp* the community.
Geez didn’t you SEE the billboards I bought all over SL rotating and blinking and sending off strange particles, lagging all the residents for miles around announcing the new blog? I mean you do READ those floating billboards right?
(Otherwise tries to imagine trouble).
Hmm. I reviewed that book, and I do see your point. It is sort of fluffy in some areas, but it was written for the mainstream… and probably wasn’t meant to be read analytically. As you mentioned, there is a basis in there which is tangible… and the marketing use of such worlds is also tangible. There are some concrete examples as I recall.
Always fun to read what others think of the same books. I got it as it just came out, and some things have changed since then. Perhaps I should reread it when I’m done reading this stack…
Thanks Nobody and I’d better append my comments. Being in the marketing biz (shoot me, I know, but really I don’t make any crappy TV commercials or mail out junk) the book made some points that really struck home first from a business perspective: brands try to be about emotions, virtual worlds are emotional, but you can’t just drop brands into these worlds without respecting and understanding the emotional context into which they’re being grafted.
It also struck home because in spite of his rather loose ‘academic’ rationale, I think he was dead on – no matter how hard you try, the emotional reactions you can have in virtual worlds is powerful.
My overall comment wasn’t so much about the book as about a recent attempt to be ‘logical’ about spending time in a virtual space – keep the emotions in check and keep some distance. But all it ended up doing was disturbing social (and emotional) balances around me.
Which really just validates the point of the book – you can view virtual worlds as platforms for branding and business and fail, or you can respect them as environments in which emotions and community need to be respected and nurtured and you’ll probably do pretty well.
Which is a big plus in general for business and ‘consumers’ – virtual worlds demand a sort of honesty and integrity of “gut” and emotion that some corporations may have a tough time with, and as these spaces continue to grow us little avatars will be able to spot the clunkers more easily, because we’ll have the tools to see, touch, create, and feel.
Thanks Nobody!
Hmmm okay well this is the first time I have been able to get a close-up shot of you errr your avatar. So the lady had a camera or something? How does that work?
Anyway…interesting avatar. What is that in your mouth? I can’t tell from the photo 
Cool stuff. Interesting reading as well. I am caught up now.
Err. Thanks for the compliments… O.o
You’re right – too many people are speculating on what Google is up to, and few people have a clue. If you get a chance to read ‘Search’ by John Battelle, it is worth it – it does give you some food for thought on what Google actually is.
As far as approaching the metaverse… if it is approached as a collaborative space, I think that might encompass everything else. The trouble is that the space itself is not very collaborative yet. It will get better, I’m sure.
With policy and Second Life – that is exactly what I think. All technologies being equal, the best policies will win.
Thanks Nobody – check my latest post on my thoughts on collaborative space, a bit more personal than usual and of course there are business benefits to learning how to use collaborative space.
Yeah, I did read Search, great book.
I think I’ll move on to worrying about some other corporate giant though. Any siggestions?
[...] And for the sake of exploration, the Roadmap looked at four quadrants – all of which will come true and all of which have perils and potential. I commented on those quadrants and my interests in a previous blog. [...]
[...] era la volta di “My world” il progetto Serious Game di promosso da Google. ( vi linko Google/Second Life Merger and a Life of Speculation giusto perchè avanzava dei dubbi…) Mi domandavo: Ma perchè Google dovrebbe andare contro i [...]
[...] Per my previous comment on the PARC research of WoW, the idea of “communities” may be the wrong way to look at [...]
[...] Original post by dusanwriter [...]
[...] unknown wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerptImagine a virtual world built by Microsoft! At the Virtual World Conference, MS commented that by next year, we’d all know more about their interest in virtual worlds:. [Timing is] definitely a concern…But I think we’ve got a good … [...]
[...] Friday, October 12th, 2007 in Metaverse General Tags: browser, client, metaverse, universal Yesterday it was a new client from Electric sheep. [...]
[...] addition to the Electric Sheep viewer being launched to coincide with the CSI/Second Life combo (as previously blogged) here’s a nice looking little viewer in alpha version that allows you to enter the world for [...]
and to make things even cooler, I was able to succesfully log onto the grid (via that site) on my iPhone. The button to send messages didn’t pop up so I really couldn’t do much, but considering that the program is in alpha, that is totally possible to be fixed. I’m going to contact them and offer to test it for them.
[...] read more [...]
This is amazing. Will check back here often to see what else we can learn. Thanks for the inspiration.
Team Wicanders
[...] I recently wrote about Jon Brouchard’s use of virtual architecture. [...]
[...] Business in Virtual Worlds, Second Life Tags: empty world, Second Life, traffic In follow-up to my posting about the tracking traffic on a sim using Jon Brouchard’s new script from his Reflexive [...]
[...] Writer follows up with additional thoughts HERE, and HERE. No Comments so far Leave a comment RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack [...]
[...] in Business in Virtual Worlds, Second Life Tags: legal, movable, Second Life, terms of service i recently wrote about the Movable viewer as a handy way of accessing SL without needing the client – use a Web browser to [...]
Oooh! Got any slurls for a quick Teleport? If not then I’ll just search in-world.
[...] Countdown to History? CSI in Second Life. Can 400+ sims be wrong? Wednesday sees a special episode of CSI New York called “Down the Rabbit Hole” in which the pursuit of a killer takes Gary Sinise into Second Life. [...]
Search CSI in Map – but the sims were in lockdown, I assume until Wednesday at 10:00!
Can’t wait to see it, but as I’m in Ireland, I’ll probably have to wait a few years before it gets to me…lol But don’t tell me how it ends, that’ll only ruin the surprise.
it’s a cool idea, but do you really feel comfortable about entering your SL password on a third party website?
No, not really – and this is an issue with a number of third party viewers and applications. Two emerging issues/approaches: one is, Linden is perhaps preparing to position itself as the backbone supplier of infrastructure. the deal with IBM on avatar portability, their open architecture working group, all tend to support the notion that Linden wants to provide the services of avatar identification, currency, age/identity verification and thus become the “home” to our virtual wallets and identitites.
Not too tricky to hack the system with an intelligent looking and/or branded “viewer” or chat app – throw a Coke or MTV logo in the bottom maybe, and use it to suck up passwords.
Issues of identity and verification I see as a tidal wave issue – there needs to be some consensus around these things, and perhaps a validation system much like e-Commerce sites have validation systems and labels (think eTrust for avatars and viewers). Linden seems to be positioning itself this way – taking care of your money, storing your personal avatar identity, and selling land – in the future, we won’t ONLY ask do you trust this viewer, but also do you trust this company to buy land from? Will it still be around 6 months from now? On systems where content isn’t portable (Metaplace, it seems) to other platforms, do you trust making “stuff” that can’t be protected offline?
Identity, trust, validation and verification – early Internet talk, really, remember when no one wanted to use their creit cards online because they didn’t “trust” it? (As if leaving a slip behind in a restaurant was more trustworthy). We’ll see how this plays out, because the driving issue is really standards around transparency, interoperability and identity.
[...] Dusan Writer comments on the potential for a “tipping point” as 400+ sims were brought online to handle the load. What if…that didn’t work? I was in-world and did not watch the show. Aside from a couple problems with assets not uploading for a brief period, the Grid thrummed on without a hitch while avatars bet on how long before the Grid would tear apart. It didn’t. The Second Life website went down for a bit, but the Grid, incredibly, worked well. Maxing at no more than 40k simultaneous users. [...]
Wow, amazingly vivid argument — a picture does always save 1,000 words.
I was so glad you “got it” about the problem with the SEARCH and having to drill down. I don’t know why it should be so hard to persuade people.
The clues and crime scenes look as if they were made for 9-year-olds. They are terribly dumbed down, and contrast with the very breathless action-packed machinima that makes it look less lame.
I think the people who make TV perceive their viewers as stupid. And…that’s why they’ve lost them and their advertising eyeballs. And…that’s why you’ve gained them at your superb build in SL.
The question is what an old lumbering media dinosaur like CBS should do. Well, a different model might be to fund obtrusively sites like yours, and work an ad into the scenery itself, possible.
I’m actually shocked — so the place was created for 9-year-olds and I still didn’t get it? Only one hour after looking at the nice ‘clues’ on the ground I was told by someone that I need a HUD to play (but I couldn’t find it). Then I had some (apparently incorrect) information that the HUD would come automatically by the OnRez Viewer or that you needed the OnRez Viewer to play the game or, well, that you needed to join through the site, or…
In fact, allegedly, none of these are true, you can use the regular viewer, but… you have to start with a HUD!
Wow, 9-year-olds are getting pretty clever these days, and my age is showing… I thought I could help these people out somehow (and spent a few hours on their orientation areas), but… I have no clue what they’re supposed to be doing, and the layout of the OnRez viewer is sufficiently different to be able to give them some tips on the interface when they’re stuck! Also, never having seen the HUD, I can’t also explain to anyone how to use it. This was rather frustrating to me, so I simply hang around with friends and had some nice chats on completely CSI-unrelated buildings. Mind you, the overall buildings are *very* nice, even if they are of the “clean” variety…
The Heads up display is called a “Toolbar” It is clearly marked on both of the Orientation island signs when you first start, but if you are having problems Gwen I will of course give you (and anyone else) a copy. Just please do not pay someone for them, as the user’s progress does not transfer with the device.
Wonderful comments and thank you Economic for the offers of assistance. I must say, I did like the way that the HUD combined audio and text (and video? I can’t remember now to be honest). Hadn’t seen a multimedia use of a HUD before it was refreshing.
And thank you Prokovy. If I could take an ounce of credit for superb builds it wouldn’t be for the ones of which I took photos. And while we’re on the subject of 9-year olds, with them wandering around virtual Barbie worlds, and Club Penguin (4,000,000+ kiddies) I’d be very careful about any disparaging remarks about the intelligence of 9 year olds when it comes to virtual worlds.
Having said that, I am indebted for your comments and your own observations. Your concentric circles commentary really speaks to the beautiful thing about virtual worlds – the flow of content up and down, ‘old users’ sharing their content with new ones so that new mash-ups and concepts are freshly created.
Another cool feature: the small map in the upper right has a globe icon in the lower right corner. Clicking on the globe icon pops up the full map/tp. I think that’s a brilliant update to the viewer – I hate always having to return to the bottom bar – it’s like always having to go back to the hallway in your house to get to any other room.
[...] Life Tags: law, magic circle, membrane, policy, property, virtual worlds A while back I wrote a lengthy piece on the concept of property, avatar rights to property, and what we mean when we, as users, get in a [...]
Sure….I tend to agree, that really is a hot little feature. But I’m still on the side of ignoring the viewer until they fix the search function, which still strikes me as a deliberate attempt to confuse newbies and force them to shop through onRez.
Think Linden will swap the “best of”?
I have been away from SL for a couple of weeks due to being on holiday in RL and have been following the whole CSI thing through blogs such as this one. My home in SL is in Toxia and I really appreciated the positive comments about Toxian City.
From my extensive wanderings in SL I have drawn the conclusion that over 90% of companies setting up a presence in SL don’t get it. All the best sims I have visited are small organically grown places started off by amateurs. Every time I have been to a big hyped “event” in SL its been a disappointment. Most companies treat SL residents as mindless drone consumers happy just to window shop and chat to one another about the wonderful products they are purchasing.
Sims such as Toxia which create a atmosphere and let the people in the sim actively join in with creating new parts of the architecture, role plays etc are some of the most highly visited non-sexual parts of the grid. Don’t forget Toxia has its shops too (admittedly for weapons and the like) and it relies on these shops for paying for its tier etc.
Of course a violent, dark sim peopled by cyborgs, vampires, demons and the like (on a good day) is not for everyone. People get shot in Toxia a lot, people are not nice to other people. That is what makes it _interesting_. The person who can create this sort of interactive community outside of places like Toxia or sex places will be the person who really cracks creating a commercial presence and community in SL that everyone wants to participate in rather that creating a virtual storefront with nothing behind it.
It will take a huge amount of effort to achieve. Ask Miss Wright or any of the other creators of Toxia but the rewards will be immense.
[...] New York in SL – The Grid Lives, Long Live the Grid thegrid October 25th. 2007, 1:01am Marc Gunther wrote an interesting post today [...]
[...] and Rom Ireton. I think everyone has experienced this Second Life bug even the newbies that visited CSI:New York in-world got a taste of Ruth. [...]
[...] 2007, 9:48 pm Filed under: reflexive architecture Dusan Writer posted another very thoughtful entry on his blog (link) about Reflexive Architecture, which really got me thinking. I’m excited to see the concept [...]
I must say I absolutely loved your post. Had never heard about reflexive architecture, but I will certainly try to take up its issues more deeply. I specially think this paragraph is quite thought provoking:
“If virtual worlds feel real, have objects with real value, evoke real (and perhaps enhanced) emotional responses, and ALSO allow the creation of objects and environments that aren’t possible in the physical world – then as new objects and environments are created, maybe we’ll start to see things that change how we view ourselves, the culture we live in, and the world around us. If so, is it possible to invoke spiritual responses because we now have access to new and creative metaphors? This doesn’t replace the spiritual/creative response you might get from seeing the stars at night or an inspiring cathedral. But perhaps it extends our toolkit for invoking this response.”
For sure our constant connection with the internet has redefined what we consider space to be. On the one hand it allows us to understand that space is much more than the coordinates around which we move. Space is much more than a quantification of matter, it is a metaphor which allows us to inhabit the world. To be “in” a space is much more than being here or there; being in a space actually deploys a whole realm of understandings which we are sometimes not aware of. I think in this respect you would really enjoy reading this post of mine which shows how much is presupposed, for instance, in our use of maps:
http://amelo14.wordpress.com/2005/06/17/reflections-on-space-western-architecture-and-911/
However, I will end with a serious problem for our actually “living” within virtual space. The reality is that our bodies do not make part of it. Can a space which our bodies do not actually sense, feel and know, be called truly a human space? Or does this tendency, as you yourself foresee, actually make of technology so powerful that our contact with our own bodies and nature is even more jeopardized?
Andrés
What a wonderful and thoughtful response Amelo.
Lost in my musings about the value of virtual worlds are musing about the danger. Castranova wrote eloquently about virtual ecomomies and articulated for me some of the dangers of virtual worlds – the Matrix being one possible end point. In a horror scenario, he paints a world where artificial intelligence is used to substitute for ourselves when we are not “in” a virtual world – when I’m out grocery shopping, I can train AI to take over my avatar. In his scenario, eventually these AIs can outlive us when we die. He paints a picture of the last man alive – humans are so immersed in virtual worlds they’ve forgotten the needs of their bodies, forgotten to have children because virtual children are more adoring and less trouble. As humans die off, their AI avatars take over – until those left don’t know if they’re interacting with real or atificial intelligence. As the human race dies off, the last don’t realize that there are fewer and fewer real humans, that most of their relationships are with virtual intelligences. Doom and gloom indeed.
He also paints a more optimistic picture.
I prefer to dwell on the optimistic primarily because I am an optimist, and also because there are enough people who either doubt the capacity for these ’spaces’ or who lack the imagination like the reflective architects of the world to see past the recognized archetypes.
Part of my point about virtual worlds is that there is the potential for the application of the lessons learned and archetypes discovered in these spaces to the ‘real world’. Part of my personal discovery is that I’m perhaps more interested in the ‘membrane’ and the crossing over of identities and ideas from synthetic worlds to the real than I am in the ability of synthetic worlds to fully immerse us. No doubt there will be enough people continuing to strive for virtual worlds that are SO immersive that individuals never want to leave (and in some case, why WOULD they?) I’d like to continue a dialogue about how we can properly integrate our virtual and real world activities.
As Castranova pointed out – there really is no difference. We can earn money in a virtual or a real world, spend time here or there, and there is only an artificial boundary that we define by the nature of the sensory input.
Having said that, as synthetic worlds become more immersive, become more compelling than the real world, this threatens to trigger a widespread migration to virtual worlds the consequences of which will be difficult to measure. The migration will range from large chunks of time amongst a wide swath of people, to nearly complete migrations where people are living and working in virtual spaces. The more that this migration occurs, the less “value” the physical body starts to have. The less value that is placed, perhaps on nature, on human touch.
But some would also argue that our current “physical” spaces are not so physical at all. Are manufactured environments, the experience ecomomy – are these THAT much different from virtual spaces? Retailers manufacture scents to make us buy more. They manufacture fake histories in their store design and signage. They manufacture our experiences towards “training” us to forget the instincts of our bodies and to buy what we don’t need.
So….I’m agreeing and disagreeing. I believe that the mind/body/spirit/environment balance is out of whack in the real world to begin with. I believe virtual worlds have the potential to trigger new emotional responses that, if directed properly, might help to reconfigure culture so that a new balance of mind/body/spirit is possible. I believe that the only thing that is non human about these spaces is the absence of blood and bones but that virtual spaces might actually enable us to step out from behind the inherited masks that our real bodies present to the world (by no choice of our own – gender, race, age) and to present new versions of ourselves that are spiritual, creative and emotional.
I also believe that we risk following a path into synthetic worlds that forever cuts us off from our bodies and perhaps from nature. That there are dangers, and that it is up to the early pathfinders, the artists and architects, and the thinkers like yourself, to remind us that there is more than one aspect of ourselves that we will need to integrate as we grow, expand, append, and explore in these new worlds.
When this conversation surfaced at Metaversed, I asked pointedly: but we don’t have a taxonomy for the Internet, surely. That is, yeah, there’s gov, com, org. Or there’s e-commerce. Or there are portals. Or there are search sites or link farms or porn or intranets. Sure. But the content isn’t as analyzed as everybody seems to want to analyze VWs.
THIS — “a business need to quantify and measure the spaces” — seems to be driving the mad rush now. And frankly, that’s not compelling enough reason to rush to judgement, IMHO, just so somebody can sell widgets to better link the worlds. Oh, I realize they will do that *anyway* — but we should try to preserve the freedom of the spaces anyway, too.
In one way, deciding this or that world is “social” and this or that world isn’t social seems odd — all sites are social at some level — isn’t the stuff you are searching for in Google at times stuff that wants to be found?
Lagorama seems ok — except what if you use Second Life to make a game, or use it for an educational purpose — then it isn’t such a Lifesim.
You could judge them by whether or not they have RMT — and frankly, I look at every game/world and ask whether it has real estate. Because private property is part of the bulwark of player or resident freedom against game gods or coders — even if emulated, even if remaining proprietary. I realize this isn’t a very popular concept among leftoid geeks who hate private property. Look at Twinity, grudgingly giving out only apartments, and even Second Life, only rewarding the “value add” and never conceding that land is really stake.
One thing I really loathe is this constant Geek intrusion of “the lessons learned” of past iterations of the Web, 0.0 or 1.0 or 2.0. This or that thing is “Prodigy” or “Compuserve” and must die or will die anyway on its own. This or that thing is Geocities. This or that thing is “just like a MUD we had, really” etc. I find this terribly constrictive — it’s like a Vietnam Syndrome. Why must we be doomed to have this past and all the concommitant guru thinking around it inflicted on us at every new crossroads in the Metaverse? I’m glad you’re willing to think out of these boxes, Dusan.
It might just happen that walled gardens protect freedom more than open-sourced sandboxes filled with script kiddies that grief everybody and constrict freedom that way.
I agree. I also loathe the ‘lessons learned’ mentality. Although I suppose my point with the definitions that seem to be surfacing about the Metaverse is to use the lessons learned from the past and try not to repeat them. The venture capitalists and the “script kiddies” who managed to throw a business plan together often used artificial definitions and taxonomies as window dressing to disguise that a) they had no actual business behind their so-called business models and b) they needed some sort of way to address the fact that there is no line item in a revenue projection to address the nature of a creative, chaotic, changing and ambiguous media.
Here’s how I imagine a pitch to a group of bankers or investors who know nothing about virtual worlds:
“We’re going to create branded entertainment products and aggregate social communities by creating a Web 3.0 space that leverages best in class talent incentivized with virtual currency. Investment in this opportunity is high risk but the risk:ratio return is high because we will establish best practices and aggregate eyeballs within the social/entertainment Web 3.0 space towards creating a portfolio of opportunities for future monetization.”
Here’s what it really means:
“3D stuff is really cool. We really have no idea where this is all headed. We want to take a gamble on creativity, passion, collaboration. We’re going to work with some Neko who hangs out at the Missing Mile and a Gorean Master who also runs an erotic strip club for furries. We figure we’ll throw a bunch of prims together, hope we don’t get griefed, make some cool stuff, and have some fun – and if we can do all that, a whole bunch of people will probably hang out, become friends, and our passion will spread, and some day that whole thing might make us some money or it might not, but we’ll probably survive, we’ll learn a thing or two, we’ll for sure end up with some possibly worthless real estate, a bunch of code, and some objects that we’re just as likely to give away as sell, and hey, maybe we’ll become better human beings by learning to work with each other in a different way, and to help people experience emotional, immersive evnironments in new ways.
Wanna come along for the ride?”
These are certainly valid concerns. Let me try to briefly address them.
On walled gardens:
Yes, we are starting out with maintaining control over the servers. Why?
1) We want to have a one-click experience for ordinary people to be able to create a world.
2) We do need to establish enough of a network so that our eventual business model is viable.
You are conflating two separate things a little bit, though. We do not want to have *multiple networks* out there using slight variations on the same tech base. That feels like it defeats the point.
That’s a separate issue from whether we let servers run elsewhere. The system is architected for servers to run anywhere, and we still plan to move in that direction over time. And that is yet another separate issue from whether the servers themselves are open source (currently, no).
We do plan a server-side plug-in system, btw.
On cashing out:
Feel free to use the web services stuff that we offer as part of every world in order to interface with your own solution. A lot of folks won’t have that capability, which is why we offer our own solution. Yes, of course we want to take a cut if we offer the service — that is how we cover the costs of offering it.
The other benefit to offering the virtual currency is that it greatly simplifies transactions between users from different territories, who use different billing solutions, etc.
On legality of cash out:
The law on this is pretty clear. I am unsure why people get up in arms about this, except that perhaps a bad precedent was set by other services, permitting stuff that shouldn’t have been.
Who verifies the legality? Well, we’ll have to. YOU’LL have to. The government sure will.
On interoperability:
We intend to support as many common formats as we can. For 3d, we are more likely to start with interchange formats like COLLADA than with high-end proprietary formats though.
I think a key point here though is that unlike the iPod and your analogy of a locked platform, we are not pushing an asset format on you. Feel free to take stuff out — it will work elsewhere.
The bit that is hardest to move, certainly, would be scripts and data structures. After all, we added event-driven stuff to Lua. But at least it’s Lua, and therefore something you can move to elsewhere.
On ads:
Fair enough on the comment that it’s really “free things on the net that are offered by for-profit entities.” That is what we happen to be, a for-profit entity.
We haven’t settled yet on where and how we will use advertising. That said, yes, it costs money to bring the service to you, and if it’s free, then we have to recoup somehow. Ads is a way to do that.
Raph:
Thanks for such a thoughtful response. I’m a real amateur in all this. So a lot of what this is just impressions and notions, as I said at the beginning of my post. Your deep expertise and attention to my thoughts was more than I expected.
Your leadership inspires great confidence that Metaplace will succeed, and my own hope that it will facilitate a “tipping point” for the 3D Web.
As I said, I LOVE Apple. I love my iPod. I love my iPhone. And I love these things because a company I respect and trust takes care to control the core technology and functionality, just as the community will come to respect Metaplace if it continues to communicate as efectively as it has to date, and if the technology is as elegant and simple as I’ve seen.
I hope that my tone was to point out that the 3D spaces that people create are going to be METAPLACE spaces, and that your current model is that you will not license the technology underlying these spaces, and that you will have a hand in the flow of commerce through this technology (although I’m pleased that you can choose other Web services, you’re still taking a cut).
I’d like to clarify – I do NOT have a problem with this.
But I think that there’s a disconnect between the business model for Metaplace and how it’s being positioned and interpreted by future users and the media.
If I were to summarize your “tag” in one phrase that keeps repeating its this: “3D spaces that work like the Web works”. And that’s fair enough. What I you’re saying is that when you go to make a Metaplace space you tools and protocols familiar to those used in developing Web sites and applications. These protocols will both be embedded within Metaplace and other needed protocols will be based on the concept of a very open system for moving, sharing, uploading and animating. By using image formats, for example, that are “Web ready” you are linking into current processes and protocols for image development. Even your scripting language will be based on Lua and thus fairly “transparent”. I’m further encouraged that this open system will include interoperability with 3D software such as Maya and 3DS.
This is exciting stuff. A GIANT leap forward. It will make world building easier. We will all be able to create games, houses, etc. It may very well help us to reach a tipping point – 3D worlds will become as common as Web pages.
But I also believe that your business model is structured so that you are “locking in users” (or at least making it very difficult to leave the platform). There will be benefits to users for being locked in: user-friendly tools, your reputation, the service you provide, etc. (and again, I have no problem with your business model, I’m simply pointing out what I believe is an unacknowledged truth in the public at large).
I believe that when people HEAR about Metaplace they sort of envision the “HTML of 3D Worlds” – a new, Web-friendly, open system that will put the tools of world building in the hands of all.
But there’s a difference here – you have invented a kind of HTML for 3D worlds, but it’s owned by a private company (Metaplace).
To truly “work like the Web” Metaplace would need to allow users freedom of choice to move their “3D Web sites” wherever they wish, to handle commercial transactions how they wish, etc.
Will Metaplace support portability of avatar identity? Will you have the ability to impose any controls over currency exchange? If I become unhappy with the support I’m getting for an online game that I developed on Metaplace and so want to move it to Second Life will I be able? If I develop a game that I want to deploy across multiple platforms how easy will that be? Or will it be like the old PC/Apple days – develop a game and an Apple version was a “nice to have” based on sales not a need to have.
Well, if I were your investors I’d sure hope the answer was on the side of a business model that didn’t “give away the store”.
You’re in business. You need to make money. And by letting your users in on the action, and if you develop great tools, and if you do a masterful job supporting and encouraging your community I’m optimistic that Metaplace will do what I hope it will – extend 3D development tools, help achieve a tipping point for synthetic worlds, and to move game/world building out of the hands of Sony and into the hands of users. (If anyone can do it it’s likely you, just be careful about too much pressure from your VC backers to “monetize” your community).
I believe that creativity is spiritual. Tools like Metaplace will help people share their aspirations, hopes, dreams, thoughts, ideas, stories, myths, and experiences (and, yeah, to create places where we can virtually kill each other but hey, that can have its own upsides). My preference is for open source everything but we don’t live in Eden – there are walls around our gardens for a reason, and one of them is to earn a living and to hopefully do it in a way that’s as authentic as possible.
There’s a business model behind Metaplace as you acknowledge, and I think it’s important to remain authentic and open about what the potential downsides and restrictions to this business model might be for the typical user.
Thanks, Raph, for hopefully helping to advance an agenda of making 3D worlds ubiquitous, easy to use, and easy to build. And to potential users, thanks for thinking about the pros and cons – easy-to-use tools and a shared community where you might get locked in (to a degree) to someone’s platform, or REALLY hard to use tools where it’s all yours but good luck maintaining it and getting anyone to show up.
P.S.
- Great to hear on server-side plug-ins, and I think I understood the distributed server architecture. I still stand by my Apple analogy (maybe not my iPod analogy though) that you’re controlling versions of the technology because it will not be open source. And thank GOD Apple keeps control of much of its core technology, it’s how they’ve maintained their singular focus on best-in-the-world user-centered design.
- I think I’m totally mystified on cashing out. Here’s my question – if I want to sell an object on e-Bay, why do I then need to further convert that transaction through a virtual currency, and then translate it back to dollars? If I sell a REAL thing on eBay, there are protocols in place for protecting the legality of that transaction.
I really don’t have a problem with putting safeguards into the flow of money and transactions, I just truly don’t understand why just because a world is virtual why it needs a separate virtual currency (other than for, as you say, simplicity when you may be looking at 100 currencies). Why are you saying that the protection is at the point of cashing out? I really think I’m just confused because the model seems to treat “virtual money” as illiquid UNTIL you cash it out, and I actually see it as money at the point it’s earned (whether in a virtual currency or not).
- On ads: I have a feeling you’ll approach these very carefully. You’ve seen enough examples in the world of gaming to know that a misplaced ad can just as easily turn a user AGAINST a brand.
- On interoperability – I hadn’t heard a clear answer on this before. Thanks for the clarification – it was as I had hoped and partly expected, so I’m glad you’re trying to create the level of portability you describe.
[...] now to check on the progress of the Missing Avatar case (I’ve read that Detective Taylor of CSI:New York is on the case, LOL!) to find the blog gone. What greeted me was a Wordpress Error page. Wow! When [...]
Seems like the currency thing is the big point of confusion…
OK, first example. You make a world, want to charge people for stuff. You don’t have any tech or connections or knowledge on how to do that. For you, you can use the Metaplace currency and script objects will do all the heavy lifting for you. Stuff can be listed on our marketplace, etc. We get a transaction fee.
Second example. You want to charge dollars directly. You use a script module that handles a web service bridge to Paypal or a third party that handles billing and transaction verification. Our cut = zero.
That said, odds are good (we hope) that you didn’t have to write this module — in fact, you may have gotten it from our marketplace! And if you did write it, you can also sell it via the marketplace. (Modules with autoinstall do have to go through the network, that’s how we autoinstall them for you). In those cases, we get a transaction fee.
But it might be an open source module, in which case you could have just copy/pasted the code for it. Our cut is zero again.
So you see, it really is intended as “if you use a service we offer, we take a cut, and if you don’t, we don’t.”
Hmm. Well that strikes me as an open and fair system. I really get confused on this stuff, I suppose….so now I understand the “cut” part – and again i don’t intend to make it sound like I think you’re after some huge money grab here, we’re all in a transaction economy, micropayments add up and are generally more fair to individuals so I like, and you’re a business – sounds like a win/win model.
Will Metaplace ever control its currency (as Linden does, basically “printing” or retiring money (depends whose stats you read) to keep the Linden exchange rate artificially fixed to the USD?)
Hey – and by the way, thanks for paying attention to my rambings it’s an honour.
[...] posted this past week in reply to my comments on Metaplace, Raph Koster points out that the economy of [...]
[...] geographies. Whether this business model could survive the much discussed possible development of a virtual overlay on Google Earth remains to be [...]
i like that and i hope you will be writing more in the future because i m following you
[...] Changes to Virtual Economies and the Dissolving Membrane: Metaplace, Second Life, Twinity A few developments seem like natural shifts in the nature of virtual worlds and their economies but leave me perplexed about the future. I’m not an economist and don’t really know the first thing about it other than what I’ve picked up in bits and pieces with my initial framework provided by Edward Castranova who helped me to understand the reason for the biases, misunderstandings, and flaws in virtual world economies. [...]
Second Life News for November 4, 2007
TV Show Over? Obsess About It on the Web That same week, “CSI: NY” on CBS catapulted to No. 4 on the list, no doubt because a character, Mac Taylor, entered the virtual world Second Life to solve a crime.
Second Life and the ‘view of the child …
prokofy: Good points, which I think play right back into something I said on Lag-O-Rama…”This leads me to ponder two things:
1. When did we decide that we had to start classifying online games like championship dogs? “Ah, yes…that’s a sheephound, but it’s not of the Austrian Bluehair variety, so it’s inferior.”
2. Why does it freakin’ matter so much to so many people?”
People tend to spend time arguing about this type of thing, whether it’s relevant or not. Personally, I think VW’s should each be judged on their own merits, and not shoe-horned into some pre-existing category…if it’s designed well, it shouldn’t neatly fit into a category at all.
Also a good point regarding making a more traditional “game” within Second Life…there are several already present in SL, of course, but your point is taken. Of course, a television show that anyone would agree is a comedy still has moments of drama in it…there are no absolutes.
dusan: That may be the best pitch/translation I’ve ever seen. Awesome! By the way…does anyone else find it sadly humorous that the ones that preach the “lessons learned” philosophy are usually the ones that didn’t learn the correct lesson anyway?
On the one hand, the rush to create a taxonomy of virtual worlds seems to combine a desire to attach any world-building, platform-creating, 3D project with the right catch phrases so that investment money can come pouring in.
I met with someone yesterday who said he’s launching “The Facebook for healthcare…we’re going to do for healthcare on Web 2.0 what mySpace did for kids communities of interests.”
The meeting was booked for an hour. I left after 10 minutes. He’ll probably be a gazillionaire in 6 months but his Koolaid has a weird glowing look to it.
On the OTHER hand models are ways of representing reality to test out theories. The idea SHOULD be that a model can let us examine, explore, dissect, criticize and then improve upon our understanding of reality – with a model, its cheap to build and it doesn’t need to change reality but can create feedback loops WITH reality.
My point about these taxonomies is partly to remind people that they’re just models, partly to debunk business models against a repeat of the old Web portal/e-commerce/aggregate eyeball days, but also to ask whether we should be seeking alternative taxonomies.
Maybe look at them, Prokovy suggests, for whether they have ‘real estate’ and what models of property drive the spaces. Maybe for economics. What about categorizing the worlds for the ‘cascade’ of creative content? Or for the availability of collaborative creative toolsets? A lot of attention is given to the definition of these spaces based on their social tools and level of immersion (fantasy/game vs. mirror worlds/LifeSims). But if the 3D Web is a new platform for human creativity and a possibly powerful tool for social change and creativity, then why not create a taxonomy based on how flexible a platform is in allowing creative, collaborative development (either by the code and tools themselves, the ToS, or the intellectual property “rules”).
I’m not suggesting an alternative taxonomy but I’m also suggesting we not throw the idea of models out entirely. Each “world” WILL be judged on its own merits – basically, if anyone shows up or not.
Until then, a helpful quote from our collaborative friends at Wikipedia on the definition of models:
A mental model is an explanation in someone’s thought process for how something works in the real world. It is a kind of internal symbol or representation of external reality, hypothesized to play a major role in cognition and decision-making. Once formed, mental models may replace carefully considered analysis as a means of conserving time and energy.
(emphasis added)
[...] is a really fascinating blog posting about virtual economies, membranes, convergence, etc. It’s a really great posting, definitely [...]
[...] You can read the full story here [...]
Considering Anshe’s brief background as an escort, the following sentence needs a pardon the pun: “Anshe Chung will immediately tend to suck off the buyers…”
[...] User Experience Mapping of Second Life: Academic Model The following is a map of the common user experience of Second Life posted as part of a serious dissertation on bringing users up to speed in Second Life. [...]
Haha oh dear….
Thanks.
you see, the modernist in me loves the cheap mass-produced concept. but i get your point about how you get more out of it if you build it yourself.
[...] The concept of creating a legal jurisdiction for virtual worlds isn’t new…the question remains whether a End User License Agreement (EULA) or Terms of Service (ToS) carries with it a legal framework for partly resolving legal disputes that are “real”. Linden recently revised its Terms of Service to deal with claims against itself. I covered this here. [...]
[...] recently argued that the setting of social policy via the EULA and ToS could become a component in determining how [...]
[...] architecture, which I’ve written about previously and is covered in detail at The Arch may open one doorway to strange loopiness. The idea that our [...]
Dusan, your surname is most appropriate, you are a deep thinker and a skilled writer. I am most flattered by your reference to my attempt to grapple and make sense of my SL explorations… you took the concepts I was talking about to a level of abstraction I could only point and grunt at from the muddy depths.
I think your writings here are of great value and interest to anyone contemplating the impact of virtual worlds, and I strongly encourage you to continue sharing your insights and findings with us here.
I’ll never forget our dear Dummie. Now that he’s disappear, we all feel his missing.
all the word would be useless, watching what Caleb did to remember him, so I want to remember him in all the times that he stayed with us, playing and enjoying our company.
Bye Dummie.
You’ll ever be alive in our hearts.
Denny.
[...] Changes to Virtual Economies and the Dissolving Membrane: Metaplace, Second Life, Twinity [...]
One that was always there for you, always had time for you, no matter what life dealt him.
The loss of Dummie leaves a gaping hole in the fiber of the second life kid community; and it truly could not have happened to a least deserving person.
Our love for you will never fade Dummie.
~Felixe
Well i dont even know where to begin…
Dummie was my lil raver, always partying with me shaking his butt lol wen i told him too. Sneaky out of bed to come hangout.
His personality resembled alot, he shone through quite a bit.
He was the most amazing, caring, fun loving person i got to know, each friend he made he has touched.
Now hes resting, and not hurting he has left his partner to an extend but caleb baby boi hes always gunna be in your heart!
heres a poem for dummie:
Dummies Roots xxxx
Time is the root of all this earth;
These creatures, who from Time had birth,
Within his bosom at the end
Shall sleep; Time hath nor enemy nor friend.
All we in one long caravan
Are journeying since the world began;
We know not whither, but we know
Time guideth at the front, and all must go.
Like as the wind upon the field
Bows every herb, and all must yield,
So we beneath Time’s passing breath
Bow each in turn, – why tears for birth or death?
This is for dummie a beloved partner, friend, and also a great dancer
With love angel
Wrote Sat 10th november 2007
Flo, Caleb and i are always here, hoping your watching down on us.
We miss you so much…
But we will always remember the fun we had together.
Love Angel <3
R.I.P MY LIL RAVER BOY!
big hug and kisses
Maybe you can sneak out of bed again to come party with us! amazing
Thank you for posting this. It has touched my heart to see people care.
Second Life…… is Real Life there is no line. and it Hurts
I say a little prayer for thee , with the angels is my D . I wish you were still here with me, Forever in my heart you’ll be. I love you Dummie.
I would also like to thak everyone for their support and understanding in this diffucult time for me. I whih it didnt have to be.
Bye Dummie
I’ve been crying a lot, that’s for sure…I didn’t know Dummie so well, but then I see the people who knew him and their sadness and it sure touches me. I don’t know who says all this stuff about things being not real – loss is real, and the loss is all around, you can see it when in a small community, and my heart hurts. And my prayers go out to Caleb and everyone who knew Dummie so well. His spirit sure does live on.
[...] Reading academia is a lot like listening to venture capitalists and the people after their money. I previously offered an interpretation of: [...]
Without a star and only the light post to keep me company My thoughts are with you. With silence around me and only my footsteps for company My thoughts are with you. As the cool winter breeze caresses my face My thoughts are with you. As tears well up in my eyes my thoughts are with you. Your body stayed but your soul went to heaven. I think of you and will always remember you Dummie, rest easy buddie.
Wilfred.
I knew Dummie from his first day on.
I remember it pretty well, ’cause it was some days after my RL birthday and he arrived at nemo with that newbie kids shape on. He was trying to get
into appearence and me and some others were trying to help him. As he said he was german I IMed him and he answered me that he was very glad to find a german boy around ’cause he didnt know anyone. I was the first german boy he was talkin to in SL. I gave him some other names of german boys so he wouldnt feel so alone like he felt that day. I dont know how it happened but i saw him cuddling with jesper the same day. He told me in IM that he had a crush on him (who could take that bad?). It was such a cute moment.
(Sorry if i am writing rubbish or weird things, i am crying writing this)
Dummie developed fast inside the community. He was ALWAYS nice, friendly and just a gentle boy ! I can’t think of a time where he wasnt !
Dummie was one of the boys i most admired in SL! This is why it’s hard for me to believe that he is gone now. Sometimes i wish everything would be a very bad joke and he would come back and i would forgive him, yes i would! Specially when i think about his last messages to me:
“Dummie Beck: Flo, do you have a sec. for me?
”
Fl0 Cale: uhm, not atm, sorry.
Dummie Beck: OK, i will try it later then
He never tried it later :_(
“You will never be forgotten,
we pledge to you today,
a hallowed place within our hearts,
is where you’ll always stay”
Thank You Dummie for the great time, my friend!
´It’s a blessing to keep memories of a good person`(Proverbs 10:7)
LOVE
flo
Dummie was the sweetest loveliest kid. One of the best on SL. I first met him when I helped him settle into OBC and set up his bunk for him. He’s been a good friend and great fun boy and will be much missed by all us in Nat and Jay’s group.
My heartfelt sympathy to you Caleb.
Love you always Dummie.
Waki
awww gonna miss ya Dummie
Dummie was the friendlyest person you could meet. He always approached people and said hello. He warmed our hearts and made us happy.
He will be missed by all who knew him in sl.
Hope there is a sl for you in heaven Dummie.
Will luv you always, and will miss you heaps.
Vagen…
As the first rumors and bits of info started showing up, there was a sense of helpless blindness to know the situation of the person behind Dummie’s avatar.
This disconnect of anonymity of SL is coldly frightening enough when we consider what will we do if SL disappeared tomorrow and with it the connection to all our friends here.
Death of our loved ones confronts us all with a finality and helplessness of our corporeal status as temporary participants in the game of life. Dummie’s passing is so achingly compounded by both the realness and the unrealness of SL.
As I feel Flo’s pain as he contemplates the echo of the last words, I look around at those of us that are still here and try to better embrace the fullness of Now.
[...] was tipped off by reading Dusan’s blog of an SL event yesterday. In the above image you see myself and Robin attending a live simulcast [...]
Just got an off line IM Email to comfirm the rumor was true, Dummie Beck will no longer be back as we know him in SL.
But Dummie, you will be in my friends list as long as I am in SL. You will never be forgotten.
I was fortunate enough to have meet Dummie with in his first days in SL at the Vortex. I could see he was the normal new Brown Haired AV. We exchanged contact and became chat mates. I was in the lucky position in being able to assist in setting up his smooth looking image. He accepted my offer for this with genuine thanks, that warmed my heart.
I remember him saying, I like talking with you Nathan, I can understand you.
See, Dummie could hardly speak English when he first came to SL. Little did he know how carefull I was in typing simple English to him with no slank so he could understand me. But WoW, with in months Dummie could converse in English so well. We recently joked about those early days of his in SL.
From our first meeting at the Vortex we continued to be Mates and Dummie Beck, became a member of the Nat & Jays family home.
Once again Dummie, you have no need to ever leave our home group.
It is people that make Life-Life. And Dummie U touched mine and made my life richer for knowing U. Gone but never forgotten. Thank U mate. Smiles.
I am so sorry for Dummie. Always knew him as happy and lovely boy.
And i am indeed sorry to have never knewn him more close and speak about his problems. But maybe he would had liked to have a second life without sorrows. But it shows us Second Life is more than a game. Nothing is like before here too, if u loose a friend , a love here.
So its fine to have more contact than in the second life. Maybe an email adress …
I am very sorry and feel with all persons who were close or closer than me with Dummie.
Dummie I miss you……
hey my son dummie i will always always miss you.
You was the best son in the world.
you always help me out and was a loving little boy.
i will never forget you my darling dummie.
rest my little one mummy loves you loads.
love u baby
mummyxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
It’s been a very sad weekend and my heart goes out to Caleb and all those who called Dummie Beck a friend. Sadly, I did not really get to know him well though he seemed he and Caleb seldom missed one of my Vortex sets. Now, I’m not going to get that chance to get to know him and I regret it.
My message to Caleb; You’re not alone, there are many out there who care about you. Feel free to IM me anytime.
Toby Tendaze
[...] It’s common knowledge know that Dummie Beck is the deceased. Dusan has written an excellent tribute that features many thoughtful comments from those who knew Dummie. I recommend you go read it and [...]
Like many of the others, I didn’t know him well. But I knew him well enough to be saddened, and to miss him.
I remember that at first, it felt awkward to say “Hi, Dummie”, like it was some sort of running joke. But he always responded cheerfully, or greeted me first. It didn’t take long to learn that there was a real personality behind the name, friendly, and fun, and caring. It was no longer an epithet, but rather the identity of someone who made our experiences delightful.
My heart goes out to those close to him, and I’m saddened by not being able to get to know him better.
I remember him from the days at the old Flos Beach, where Flo helped him with Second Life. He called me always ” Tom the Cat” .. He was such a nice and friendly character.. I am sad that i have now not the chance to see him again..:(
I actually only met Dummie personally a handful of times, but i never heard a bad word said about him and was always impressed with his sense of decency and kindness.. A member of my own family passed away very recently irl.. and i took some solace from the following poem:
God’s Lent Child
“I’ll lend you for a little while
A child of mine,” God said
“for you to love the while he lives,
And mourn for when he’s dead.
It may be six or seven years
Or forty two or three.
But will you, till I call him back,
Take care of him for me?
He’ll bring his charms to gladden you
And – (should his stay be brief) –
You’ll have his lovely memories
As a solace for your grief.
I cannot promise he will stay,
Since all from earth returns;
But there are lessons taught below
I want this child to learn.
I’ve looked the whole world over
In my search for teachers true
And from the things that crowd life’s lane
I have chosen you.
Now will you give him all your love?
Not think the labor vain?
Nor hate me when I come to take
This Lent Child back again?”
“I fancied that I heard them say –
“Dear Lord, Thy will be done
For all the joys Thy Child will bring
The risk of grief we’ll run.
We will shelter him with tenderness,
We’ll love him while we may
And for the happiness we’ve known
Forever grateful stay.
But should Thy angel call for him,
Much sooner than we’ve planned,
We’ll brave the bitter grief that comes
And try to understand.”
Dummie, wherever you are … we miss you, we love you, we pray for you, and we thank you for the sunshine, friendship and kindness that you shared with us.
Yeah, I hear you. I honestly am having serious doubts about whether Linden Lab can handle what they have created – or if they can jump the gap from what they made Second Life to what at least a few frustrated people see as the potential for the Second Life platform.
Linden Lab also seems very much leaned (and perhaps liened?) toward favoritism. That those who could be considered Linden Lab’s chosen few see no problem is not the issue. That is a serious no-brainer. What is the issue are the people who are not among the favored who are trying to do things.
Linden Lab created the gap. Linden Lab can fix it, if they so wish. Me? I’m waiting to see what else pops up on the radar. Surely *someone* can do better than this.
I often think he only has gone out,
And soon he will be home again!
The day is lovely! Oh, be not afraid!
He only has gone out for a long walk!
Indeed, he only has gone out,
And soon now will come home again!
Oh, do not be afraid, the day is lovely!
He only has gone out to yonder hills!
He only went ahead of us
And do not feel like comming home again!
We shall overtake him on yonder hills,
In the sunshine!
Lovely is the day on yonder hills!
F.Rückert
…. bye Dummie
/me nods
[...] Tuesday, November 13th, 2007 in Metaverse General Tags: 3D, papervision, reflective architecture Fascinated by reflective architecture, I ran across the following which acts in a very similar way to the objects developed by Keystone Bouchard as I discussed here. [...]
The passing of Dummie Beck was indeed a sad moment for so many of us who were touched and blessed with his kindness, humor and spirit. Dummie had a special gift, a talent for making those around him smile and laugh and he shared it with us all freely. He was a special boy with a special place in many peoples heart.
300 Days ago I was running around naked on Help Island, sending friendship offers to anyone who even said hello. I even remember rezzing a prim and taking it back in my inventory thinking they was only so many prims per person. I was alone (and naked) in a big old virtual world.
Now, I have wonderful friends, a family and found myself awestruck that I found real love with someone in Second Life. It sounds incredible when I tell people because it IS incredible. The limitations of Second Life only exist because we allow them to. Let your heart freely open up and take your friendships to the next level. Get to know the person behind that avatar, let them get to know you. Reach out and touch someone’s life, pick up the phone and call them, take a trip and visit them. Life is short and can end suddenly, once our trip around the sun is finished, there are no second chances.
This is fantastic. i think your model is closer to the Sl experiecne than mine!
Some nice photographs and artwork.
Haha….well I hope you realize it was in good-natured fun.
By the way, I really do like your model – I’ve pulled it out on a number of occassions to explain to partners or clients the stumbling blocks that lie between those first experiences with SL and finding the sweet spot of creativity and purpose which is its potential.
Keep up the good work!
He was a kind, gentle, very friends and warmhearted boy. Always there for his friends. Dummie always brightened up the day.
I never got to know him very well. and now I wish I had done but I’ll certainly miss him and it makes me sad that he’s gone.
My thoughts and sympathy go out to Caleb and all the people who knew him
We will all miss you so much, you are forever in our hearts
bye Dummie…
Waylon
Dummie, i dont have any words for what i am feeling now. today i heard what happened. I am sad and shocked. Why you? its not fair. why are all the sweet and tender persons in this worlds taken away.
the only thing i can think about is, that you are needed in an other place to make it better. A place that very much needed you. And i know that you kindness and loving will make it better very soon.
i met you in a club as the son of husama and silva. and de brother of speedy. you were always very nice. we talked, had fun and laughed. I especially know how you made husama feel, a very good friend of mine. I am so thankfull of what you did for her.
You are a very tender and kind person and you will be missed among friends and family. If i see the sadness they have now they lost you, it is shown how important you are to them.
rest in peace , dear dummie.
wherever you are, i know you will be watching down on all of us with a big smile.
we will miss you
Patrice
[...] Changes to Virtual Economies and the Dissolving Membrane: Metaplace, Second Life, Twinity [...]
[...] Changes to Virtual Economies and the Dissolving Membrane: Metaplace, Second Life, Twinity“He argues that a combination of using Artificial Intelligence (non-player characters) and control of the flow of objects into the world allows developers to control for MUDflation.” SITE: http://feeds.aigamedev.com/~r/GameAiNews/~3/179693276/18338914 [...]
Dummie – my first real good friend in SL.
We talked nights and nights about life and you helped me to restart my life in SL.
Thank you Dummie with love – in our hearts you’re still alive.
Walt
my dear dummie, you was my lovely son and silvas son in sl and i miss you so much , i know i cant write many it is so dificult that you are gone, i dont understand why you ….we miss you…we love you… and we will always do!!! you are in my heart …. and you stay always there i have make a place for you ….special for you …oww dummie i miss you ;-”"”( i cant never seen you again… and the hug what you give me on your way i will miss so much, my god dummie I MISS YOU ………… your mum Husama korobase …
Dummie, i don’t know you so wel
but you was the lovely son of my girlfriend
Rest in peace
We will miss you
BW Kamachi
Dear dummy, I still cannot believe it we will this for us never see again, I can only think to you to this how much fun we had and how much nonsense we have made. I will never forget you and always carry you in my hearts.
in Love Speedy
p.s.
Excuses my bad English, but I can not think correctly at the moment
Dummie;
You were my first friend here on Second Life and I hope some day we will meet in Heaven when God calls me like he did you. You will be trully missed here and i klnw that we will all live again topgether in Heaven.
Miss you Markie
[...] strange and its end is filled with mysteries, shadows and the truest knowledge of our unknowing. Dummie Beck’s recent death and the feelings and responses it evoked has left me thinking, grieving (for someone I [...]
The question of avatar ownership tickles many threads to be tugged. I would hope that our use of virtual worlds leads us more to our humanity, and thus, to our sharing our being-ness with others across the spatial now. The evidence I have gathered, subjective as it is, tells me that my closest ones perceive me behind the veils and channels, and than another would only fool those not really human.
Not that I haven’t thought of other modes. When I began describing SL to those in meat-space I told them to imagine a soap opera that is immersive; where the characters are also the writers and the audience. In that thread of thinking, I then imagined a super-avatar, one for which a team of writers, fashion consultants, language coaches, designers, and others converged creativity and strategy to create an über-personality.
As I think of being human, I think of Grandfather in the movie Little Big Man, who referred only to certain members of his tribe as “human”. I speak of the possibility of SL, or anything else, helping us to evolve our humanity when I also feel we may have already surrendered it and rendered it to the genteel beast of post-industrial zombie-ism. How many of us can pass a Turing test of the soul? How do you know, a co-worker asked last week, that you are really interacting with actual people “in there”? If the three vehicles were able to complete the DARPA challenge, how hard could it be to make an avatar that passed for one with a human running it?
I have found myself in way of life where I have adapted this so-called modern life and mode of surviving, at least up partway up the ramp of Maslow’s needs, but I find myself isolated by a series of logical conclusions. SL has brought me into a new level of human interaction. Death is part of that. SL is not perfect, but it short-circuits some of the insulation our way of life has as side-effects. As I sat looking at my screen knowing that a couple thousand miles away, my beloved friend was sobbing as he grieved Dummie’s passing, I wanted nothing more than to hold that real person in my real arms. So far, that interaction seems irreplaceable by our technology.
Some weeks ago Dummie sent me an IM
“Walt, you may believe it or not, I feel like living in heaven with Caleb”!
I established a memory-stone beside our house with a link to this site.
Feel free to visit at slurl.com/secondlife/Pride%20Island/219/114/21
Walt
Knock yourself out fellas:
[...] invites comments. I’ve posted on this topic before. It’s still not clear how the currency value will be set and whether Metaplace itself will [...]
Hi my son , you will always be in my heart forever ,I love you so much ,and your mother love you 2.
I know you are looking at us and smiling.
You will always be my son and speedy love you 2 , your sister miss you a lot .we all miss you.
All those crazy nights and days playing and having fun will always be inside me forever.I miss you a lot dummie.
bye my son
with love your father silva ayres
The in world issues have ZERO to do with the CTO stepping down. If you had followed the various posts/blogs and read up a bit more It would be really obvious that there are obviously managment issues and Corey even stated that he and the CEO simply do not see eye to eye on priorities or the directions SL is going.
The problems with SL has nothing to do with it. It’s already a part of Second Life. Without problems, it wouldn’t be SL.
As reported on CNET, (http://www.news.com/8301-13772_3-9832840-52.html) Philip and Cory no longer saw eye-to-eye. For how long this was the case I have no idea, and certainly the most recent spate of problems with the Grid hardly led to the termination. I find it hard to imagine Philip pulling out his hair and screaming “My gawd! Our residents can’t teleport! That’s unacceptable! You’re fired!”
Whether the purported e-mail from Philip to staff is true, there is little difference between the e-mail:
“Cory and I have differences in how we think Linden should be run, differences that in the past few months have become irreconcilable.”
and the official release:
“Therefore, Cory and I are in agreement that our paths, at this point in time at least, lie in different directions.”
The bottom line is there’s a “T” in CTO, and the CTO needs to work with the CEO. Which vision is right and which skill set is best suited to taking SL into the next phase of its evolution will only become clear in time or if Linden can do a better job communicating a broader set of priorities other than platitudes and Windlight.
Cory leaving did not result in the grid failures of the past few months, but an overall lack of coherence, performance, and sufficient progress did. This leaves it in Philip’s hands to bring his team into alignment with whatever his vision is and hope that it’s the right one.
Having said all that I also agree with Kabalyero – TP and grid issues don’t particularly phase me. This is messy, evolving, prototyping, mucky (excuse the pun) fun. Linux had Linus and Linden had Cory under Philip’s direction. Messy is good. Messy is chaos and chaos is the friend of creation. But please please can I have my inventory back?
I met Dummie when he First Came to Second Life. I was not Around Much But My Partner Nathan Pollock befriended him and Introduced him to me.
Nat went on to Help him find a new Av to fit his Personality and give him a makeover for his Appearance in Second Life. I had only a few encounters with Dummie and wish I could have gotten to Know him as well as all of those who he found and found him in Second Life.But he made an impression on me from the start. And because he was a friend to Nat and so many and Missed by so many Nathan, Vagen and I have placed a plaque in his honor on our land and HIM & I & US Commune and Locomotive. YOU are Not Forgotten Dummie.
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse [...]
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HI Dummie
I am back from my hollidays it was verry nice had a good time only to short.:-) I was missing SL bud I am glad to be back so i can see all my friends again….
Thats what i was plant to wricht to all my friends! until i hear this sad sad news Dummie is gone what?? Dummie gone no longer on SL ?? cant be I dont believe that he was allways there ath the OBC dancing with us ore ath the Vortex he loved SL to be with his friends and partner Caleb. No MERL he is leaving SL and RL!! I am verry sad Dummie was a good friend a nice boy!! we talkd a lot we dance a lot we laugh a lot and even we cry together Dummie I will miss you verry much you where a wonderfull person to me and a fine friend I will miss you and hope iff there is a god he wil cover you like you dith to me and all your friends I love you DUMMIE and hope we meed in next live god bless you! hugs your MERLIE!!!
ich werde dich immer im härzen tragen Rühe im frieden
very interesting, but I don’t agree with you
Idetrorce
I am nodding my head up and down, Dusan. I have yet to see very many examples of brands seeming to know how to make use of SL. A thesis I was getting as I read this seems to say that the big brands climbed in thinking a top down approach would bring avatars flocking to their site, when in reality a lot of the sustained energy of SL is a bottom-up participation.
I sat in a meeting of paleo-technologists and perked up when one presenter talked about SL. I was thinking, how is he going to relate SL with the topic of this meeting? In the end, he really couldn’t. He simply said, and I am paraphrasing, “I know something big is going on here, but I don’t know what it really is, but I know we should be a part of it”. So, ok, dogpile on the buzzword.
Every year the “Society for the German language” choses the “Word of the year” (or actually the wordS of the year). This year “Second Life” was on the top ten list for the first time and came in as 7th – the highest entry from the internet world.
[...] its (occassionally limited) technology is its ability to remind us of deeper meanings. I’ve written at length about the strange loop, and how virtuality circles back to reality. There is a rich vein [...]
[...] To that I proffer that the future might not be “professionally made games”. That people will turn to platforms that allow them to make games and games will go independant. Just as we have now have micro content boiling all over the video and audio realms courtesy of YouTube and podcasts, we may, no we will probably, see the same in the games industry. Dusan Writer, who owns a company that does work in advertising, strategy, marketing and design working mainly in healthcare, environmental issues, and training noted my outlook on VastPark, MetaPlace and Second Life in a blog entry. [...]
[...] I’ll suggest that anyone interested in the meta-issues of Second Life – especially the preoccupation with corporate co-opting of SL – take a look at this post. [...]
I’m also looking forward to trying out Metaplace. If it becomes a competition for Second Life then much better. Hopefully, Second Life will improve. Second Life needs a legitimate competitor right now.
I’m having a hard time using Vastparks Create tool!
Just shows that I’m no 3D modeller. 
[...] my amateur’s armchair, I’ve given my take before on the economies of virtual worlds, riffing off the work of Edward Castranova, including my [...]
[...] Dusan Writer touches on many things I agree with in her follow-up. One being Edward Castranova’s desire for protecting the magic circle. Users will define what the magic circle will be and in the not so near future, if they wish, they will be creating the entire magic circle.. When does the game begin and end? It varies from individual to individual. Like turn of the century Quake matches via TCP/IP…you were not the best until you mastered Ping flood protection, learned to send a string of out of band data against your foe on TCP port 139, coordinated via ICQ, kept up with the birth of the Stooge bot and a host of other challenges. The game demanded players improve their security skills or suffer. The game went far beyond the game’s own boundaries- yet people played and they still play. [...]
VastPark’s tool is clunky, Kabalyero – and why they mapped the keyboard the way they did I have no idea. Having said that, I’ve been having fun playing with it and pretending it’s like the first days of SL.
..but sorry guys i dont understand i never meet Dummie i seen only some signs in his memory..but some rumors arrived to me are Dummie have only change his avatar’s name and he still life in sl is true or not?!? You are sure he is really dead in rl ..becouse is not possible to joke about it, if is a joke is a really stupid thing..plz help to me to understand who are right??
Etha -
There was an excellent post on this topic on Gemini’s blog. Check:
http://vortexblog.geminienfield.com/2007/11/19/farewell-dummie/
very good thoughts,,
alas, and not surprising it is exactly what NOT was done or is being done in the 3d media world of today..now known as by the “virtual worlds-avatar” pr meme.
Remember, it wasnt any single “social 2.0-eyeball driven advertisier paid for” platform that created the more high production level 2d web boom in 1997, It was a “free”-aka stolen mac copies- SIMPLE, NO SERVER, NO giving over your IP rights or need approval by , driven software tool/application called “Flash” that allowed a higher production level to come to the web, thus attracting those who create and sell such services to it…and then those who would want to utilize it.
As long as “3d web media” is caught in social. web2.0 blog memes and VC based get rich quick on “service” platform type thinking, it will only be another failure for the medium for those who could use it for their own reasons.
SL reached and now has peaked “interest” by mass media makers due to its “chaos” of tools for creation….just like flash had, but SL failed to allow others to TRULY create their OWN PROPERTY, and now will provide the template for many failures being built today, due to the “service” mentaility of being another google, not another macromedia…. that is required today for bloggers and thus “money interests” to offer any support.
People make things with TOOLS… NOT Services…
an old lesson, one not learned, and one that will be sadley repeated for those who really want to use 3d realtime media to create in and with.
c3
Thanks for your post on our factory! The idea is actually motivated by a old video on telematic production created by the filmmaker Alex Rivera called Cybraceros. http://www.invisibleamerica.com/whycybraceros.shtml
And yes, we are interested in issues of labor exploitation in the global game industry, gold farming, Madam Chung and her sweatshop and the increasing overlap of leisure and labor incurred by hand held devices and the cultural production of play!
[...] thinking about the strange loop and recursion, I’ve written before about the fact that there are both constructivist and deconstructivist pathways to [...]
Hi Susan. Thanks for the story.
I would just like to point out (in the nicest possible way of course) that there’s a big difference between data collection and data analysis (and a lot of demand for the latter).
Happy new year.
Nic
Agreed.
I was hoping to know what the analysis was!
Very nice post, Thanks!
Dear Dusan,
I think you have wonderfully resumed the experience of disorientation and later, either discouragement or exhilaration when one discovers Second Life to be less a game than a new world. I hope your advice is heard.
One thing I have difficulties finding myself in is the Augmentationists vs. Immersionists debate. With all due respect for Gwyneth Lewellyn’s categorization, I find both mixed instead of distinct. My SL activities are based on RL interests and behaviour (though going far beyond what I am willing to put into practice IRL) ; but immersion in the social and virtual space where I have the opportunity to live them, and the communities therein, including abiding to rules and practices making little sense from a RL viewpoint, is the key to the whole experience. I’d say both augmentation and immersion melt into a hybrid, one probably balanced differently form person to person, rather than that they are two separate approaches to the new world.
What better times are there to live in than interesting ones ? A century and half after the end of the age of discovery, a decade and half after the proclaimed end of history itself, we are suprised to find ourselves discovering and shaping a new world. A virgin one at that.
Always wish for interesting times, don’t you think ?
Rhata:
I couldn’t agree more – there are rarely dichotomies, in real or virtual worlds. I make the point about selecting your avatar name because of this very blurring. I think the point that Gwyneth makes that I support is that of initial INTENT, and then how that intent is projected to others (through groups, appearance, and where time is spent). Over time, a user’s experience in a virtual world shifts and blurs – the “strange loop” where immersion can lead to shifts in how we perceive the real, or how the augmentation of the real leads to immersion in environments and emotional landscapes we didn’t anticipate.
It’s useful to recognize that we probably lie on the continuum somewhere between the intent to immersion or augmentation. If my intention tends towards immersion, I can be highly offended by someone who asks questions about my real life. If I’m there because I’m augmenting RL interests, then I’m very likely to share e-mails, Facebook profiles, and other information about myself.
There’s no question the two blur. Using these categories are nice reminders in our interactions with others that their intent may not be the same as our own, and in particular this might be useful to a newcomer to synthetic worlds.
For myself, I’m with you – immersion gave way to augmentation gave way to different touch-points of immersion, and who can tell the difference anymore.
But the virtual and real aren’t that much different – I can be immersed in reading a book or going to a movie, and my life is always augmented by my actions and thoughts. Increasingly, these distinctions won’t need to be articulated they’ll be as second-nature (pardon the pun) as our real lives. I wouldn’t label myself a realist vs. an escapist, I’m both.
Arriving in SL, newcomers might find the labels useful to help focus their journey, although they’ll probably discover that however narrow they wish their focus to be, that there’s such a wealth of experiences that they’ll end up breaking through the boundaries of the intent because it will just be too interesting not to.
Hehe, yeah, this was cool. I think the pictures are from Ars Electronica in Linz, Austria, last summer ^_^
Now….if they’d add one of those pyramids that hover above your character in The Sims that turns from red to green as your happiness grows and shows little symbols in place of actually having to talk, they’d clean up selling to nightclubs.
hey dummie…
didnt see that there was a possibility to leave comments. i hope ure good wherever ure now. we had pretty much fun and it was a hard smash when i heard u died…three smashes in a row, in what seemed only 2 weeks. that was too much.
i would remember to phoenix ripley and hart streeter too.
they were pretty good friends and i hope they all are watching us from above
Everest
I love the art
When Joey comes up I want you to show him your world that you have built. I have been trying to explain some of it…but it is better shown than told.
You are so far ahead of the game. I know about 1% of what this entails!!! lol It is all evolving so rapidly. One wonders what the world will be like in 10 years…5 years?
Hi Dusan,
]
We made a video to show what is possible today in Microsoft VE using the Shape modeling application from 3DVIA.
http://virtualearth.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!2BBC66E99FDCDB98!10172.entry
Combining custom built house models with the Microsoft VE terrain and cityscapes has some pretty interesting possibilities. [Of course, it would help a lot to have some trees
thanks for your informative post. I did not know about the Microsoft ESP inititative.
– Rodd
Really nice work…in many ways I think 3DVIA is the stealth candidate for VW development, mainly because its focus is more corporate and everyone loves to talk about Google. Thanks for the post Rodd.
nice. but all these issues where the same over a year ago when “SL or nothing” was the VR worlds mantra.;) by those paying for the “discovery” of vr worlds and 3d media as a platform wrapper.
happy vr -ing
cube3
[...] Follow-up Post Search for Meaning Posted in Metaverse General, Second Life Experience. Tags: dummie beck, Second Life. [...]
Thanks for sharing these great ideas. I’m bookmarking this for future reference. Some of these I already do, so the point resonated most strongly with me. Keep feeding the creativity.
I am currently on holiday so, for this reason, I’ve nothing better to do than surf the web for shopping, lie around and update my blog. Well, more or less anyway.
Doug C
I once thought, as a child, that there must be an end to space. That when I looked above and saw the stars that beyond those stars there was a wall. Once you hit that wall you have come to the end of space.
I now realize, as an adult, that if there was a wall then that would mean there would have to be something on the other side of that wall. Thus, there was no end to space. There was no wall.
I watch this report and realize, as a child, that once again I am looking into space but realize this time that there will be no wall at the end of this space.
[...] Darüber hinaus werden interessante visuelle Charts wie z.B, das “Virtual Universe Landscape” von Fred Cavazza hervorgehoben. Alles in allem eine gute Quelle zur Kategorisierung von Online-Welten. [via Dusan Writer’s Metaverse] [...]
[...] I’ve written about economics and the dissolving membrane previously: Changes to Virtual Economies and the Dissolving Membrane. [...]
[...] I’ve also written that on a platform where the economy is not meant to be artificially constrained by the code (value inputs and outputs are not controlled or constrained by the platform owner as they are in MMORPGs, because they avoid artificially stimulating or depressing the economy through economic sinks (such as NPC vendors) and other gaming mechanisms) then it’s important that the currency be dependable. In the case of the Linden, the exchange rate is being artificially maintained by the Lindens, and although this isn’t a bad thing, the lack of detailed information on how thee exchange rate is maintained means that there is an invisible economic metric being hidden in the value of private island sales. I asked whether Metaplace would follow a similar approach to controlling the exchange rate of the Metabuck: Metabucks…and the Linden [...]
[...] and Dusan Writer discussed Edward Castronova’s contentions regarding the Magic Circle here and here. So, the concept is alive and well and discussed frequently in the serious gaming community. There [...]
[...] on the Grid-bank situation. It’s a touch opaque at times unless you give it a careful read, but it’s quite worthwhile. In summary, though, he reiterates the primary objections to the existence of unregulated [...]
[...] by observers as diverse as Benjamin Duranske, Prokofy Neva, Nobody Fugazi, Tateru Nino and Dusan Writer; dissenters have been few and in between, easily dismissed as either obvious lobbyists (for [...]
Wagner James saw more than 61000
http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2008/01/peak-second-lif.html
Second Life News for January 14, 2008
From: Virtually Blind Commentary: Top Five Virtual Law Analysis Fumbles Quote from the site – As virtual worlds continue suffering through legal growing pains, both mainstream press and the blogosphere are covering virtual law more often. There are a n…
does it really matter if they hit that high? the average user for SL only stays on for roughly 12-15 minutes (I believe thats monthly, but ill have to go look it up again)
very interesting post! We think it is the 3D Social Web that is emerging. Immersive and inter-connected to existing web. In fact the Avatar will be the interface to all of it, from your PC, VoIP, TV and Mobile. Let’s see when the new pointing devices start to really roll-out.
But issues at the moment with SL. Growth is hard to see even looking back at 2007 and 2008 looks weaker. Some recent data:
http://rezzable.com/blog/2008/uncategorized/2006-vs-2007-second-life-data/
Nonetheless, we are excited about future, but also think that Content will be king, just like when browser wars cleared and then content was the main event.
compare that to avg. stick time for a web session or web page…
Concurrency is hardly the objective of SL, and I’ve argued before that the most interesting ’stuff’ happening in SL is in the fields of academia, architecture, and corporate collaboration. It’s the 80/20 rule really – the greatest value being derived from SL may well be happening from the 160,000 of the 850,000 ‘regular’ users. Concurrency is one little dial on the dashboard and leads to the question of why it might be happening – as Wagner pointed out, positive press coverage in places like MSNBC.com which doesn’t treat Second Life as a novelty but rather a fact of the business landscape.
I also agree with Wayne. I’m no expert on Web site metrics but outside of social sites I’d guess that if an average Web site was able to say it had 24,000,000 user hours logged against it in the course of a month it would leave someone drooling.
I’m also no expert at reading the Second Life statistics tea leaves. I do know that numbers like the recent improvements to grid stability, increased island sales, and increased user hours when combined with a concurrency record are nice ticks in the right direction. I’m also of the mind that some of the most interesting stuff that will arise from SL will be the result of cross-platform projects that include time spent on blogs, Web sites, and in-world projects. SLoodle, for example, which allows development of courseware integrating in-world learning with the Moodle course platform.
A recent post that the US Department of Defense is using SL to train diplomats within a wider training program also suggests that there would be time “outside” SL that might easily be a lost metric – SL as an integral part of a Web-based toolkit of content is not reflected in user/hours or concurrency stats but may in fact have a deeper value in the long run.
That is, you don’t have to be IN world to be creating value for SL – and for many gaming platforms, they work hard to preclude out-of-world trading and other activities.
And I’m not sure what the latest stats are…(and I have loved Warcraft)…but for all the complaints about sim limits, I believe SL has long exceeded the total population that Warcraft can support on a given realm.
60,000 concurrent users on a realm of Warcraft would mean instant log-in failures – and that’s WITH the content taking 3 hours to load onto your own PC rather than being hosted, along with several billion user-generated items, by the platform provider.
Just a thought.
Agreed Rightasrain! But not just the 3D social Web but the 3D Wiki world – collaborative, social, project teams coming together and then going their own way, education in your hand rather than a classroom, augmented reality, and all the attendant possible negatives of the above.
On the one hand, I wish that SL was a broad consumer platform and had delivered on the promise of a flood of new CSI-enticed users who were then led to explorations outside of the traditional expectations of a “game” platform. But really, the most interesting work in SL has been that it has created a collaborative, creative and dare I say craftsman culture – and the early pioneers are now being followed by quality companies and institutions who are thoughtful and not motivated by how many “hits” they get.
Rezzable is a shining example, to my mind, of building a community of practice – prototyping concepts of experience, interaction, but more than anything bringing skilled craftspeople together towards creating the shared capability of working together in a space where the traditional corporate models will have a hard time finding traction.
The argument that we’ve moved beyond information into the conceptual age has its pairing in the idea that while content is king, content will be nothing without the ability to shape its CONTEXT especially in environments where notions of context, identity, and value are still being shaped. Today’s brilliant thinkers and creators, today’s Rezzables, have been joined by the academics and corporate visionaries who will then continue to translate these prototypes into new models for how we create, distribute, and attribute value to content.
/me grabs ticket to the main event.
Rodd….you might want to check out the new tree engine…
http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2008/january9/dryad-010908.html
great ideas there!
We are working on some new concepts focused more on unlocking creative energy in the more engaged SL builders. I hope this will be a step forward on user generate quality content…and not just tons more prim trash! Stay tuned and look forward to your comments!
I’m so glad you see the creepiness in Castronova’s definitely creepy arguments. It’s so necessary for more and more critics of this sole voice on the scene to come forward and challenge a lot of the really nasty consequences of this elitist ideology privileging game gods without checks and balances.
I really took him to task here:
http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2007/11/troll-at-the-br.html
http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2007/11/ted-castranova.html
I frankly think we need to yell long and hard about economists-turned-ludologists who think games and worlds are a great way to tap into reptile-brain impulses in human beings and addict them to behaviours in games and worlds run by artificial intelligences that are in fact merely the tools of coders with oppressive and even totalitarian views. He’s far too supportive of these sorts of scenarios, and wants to take the medieval law of MMORGPs and push it into real life — where it was banished centuries ago with what we like to call “The Enlightenment”.
Marshall McLuhan said education would need to change due to the awesome impact of technology, or rather, traditional education was ineffective and would be chasing uneducable kids — but that was 40 years ago. The question isn’t to report on this anymore but to do something about it, and do something demonstrably effective, other than make some silly politically-correct “serious game”.
Ted’s idea was to have people get jobs the way they get quests, with little NPCs showing up to offer them jobs in real life if they could accomplish certain tasks. My God, as you say, who will do all this indulging of all these entitlement-happy freaks created by virtuality?!
I was so thrilled the first time I heard Castronova speak and take virtual economies seriously, speak of the naturally, say in 2004 that the only thing odd about his topic “virtual stock exchanges” was that in 20 years, the adjective “virtual” wouldn’t be tacked on; it would be just the way all stock exchanges were. And yet…now they are crumbling in Second Life as a victim of policy, not law, and fear of regulation, not the chasing of virtual worlds by real-life law enforcers, which he fears — and I guess he imagines he can create a realm strong enough to evade.
Castronova is also far too welded to game-games, not the games of worlds, or open-ended virtual 3-d platforms like Second Life. He just hasn’t had enough experience with it. It’s like…too much real life.
I think you have to be more than queasy about totalitarian wannabee game gods with experts like Castronova serving them — you have to be standing up and fighting.
I don’t want the values of MMORPGs — sychophantic fanboyz, toadying resmods and wizards, arrogant game devs, dismissive “code-as-law” and “information-wants-to-be-free” criminality to start holding sway over real life — and the culture already does in many areas.
What I do have to wonder about is the premise that such large portions of populations will “escape to virtual worlds” that there will be no one to run the factories and keep the electricity turned on. The reality is that as much as these games and worlds have booming populations, they also don’t have “everybody” like the Internet. Or they don’t have them 24/7. Or they don’t have them such that people all quit their day jobs and sit at home all day levelling up. In part because they are worlds that don’t really capture people’s imagination or effort, as they are those droning and dreary skill=grinding and war-fighting games that Ted loves.
And another important point: I think we can’t look at artificial intelligence as some kind of abstraction, some kind of “technology”. Artificial intelligence is a manifestation of an elitist movement in society that has the power to code, and code power over all in their realm. AI is an extension of rule, not something separate from it. It’s character isn’t ’science’; it’s nature is cultural and political. This is often overlooked, as people imagine AIs will only be helpful librarians at your elbow, and not bots blocking you from accessing content or expelling you from groups, which is what happens in Second Life. AIs don’t acquire purity because they are automatic; they are creatures of the coding elite, and it is shaped by a culture that is making you queasy.
I think what’s important about Castronova’s two books, which are indeed seminal in this field, is that they indicate serious study and the creation of a system of thought about virtuality. Now we need 100 other thoughts and systems and schools to spring up, too, so that this “early adapter” doesn’t hold sway without challenge. There’s no reason why we all have to live like orcs in WoW or avatars keeping our mouths shut in Linden townhalls.
It’s only because of the newness of this field that it is so bereft of any critical challenge to Castronova. So I have felt I had to make a special effort to criticize him very hard. I find him frankly unconvincing as an economist of virtuality if he dismisses SL so glibly. It’s appalling. I guess it’s too real or too complex for him.
>While the real world concert is taking place, participants in the virtual concert hall might be remixing songs on the fly, mashing the experience so that it is no longer a stand-alone event, but rather the source for a veritable flood of user-generated content.
Dusan, let’s just catch our breaths here for a moment.
I’m a big Second Lifer as you know. And real lifer, too! But the mash-ups are just not convincing.
I’d like for once for people to actually report on what people actually do with these mash-up thingies, rather than just get ecstatic about the idea of them. OK, we got it, it’s cool, people can look in a window and see avatars in a virtual world. Get the screen big enough, it’s a blast. They stare at the screen, then turn away and deal with people in real life. There’s some interaction, but…are they really doing all that fabulous user generating of content? Or are they just consuming in a more fractured manner?
People readily adapt to immersive virtuality and live in it as if it is real, in a very simple way, and the lower the level of education, they easier they do this, without thumb-sucking about reflexivity.
The architecture needs to have a comfort level that avatars can really live in, and not just gaze at, as art. The camera angles have to be good!
I don’t believe in these four truths, as the source of illusion isn’t greed, but hope. I also think there isn’t anything terribly fascinating or insightful about tracking avatars around on a sim, they’re like people, only a little clunkier until the technology gets better.
Virtuality and artificial intelligence are human artifacts, and bear all the markings of any human tool.
It is a member of the site.
[...] This is an interesting pick-up from Castranova’s idea of an Exodus to Virtual Worlds, which I posted about last week. Castranova’s argument is that the “real world” had better learn about virtual [...]
Good read! I actually prefer http://www.citypixel.com/ to SL and WoW.
Thanks Big A…will be worth exploring City Pixel. Looks like a social engine site…seems to be popping up a fair bit, leveraging the Facebook/social Web idea into virtual worlds. How does City Pixel work as a venue for education, corporate collaboration, simulation or explorations of new creative forms and visual rhetoric? (Save me a trip please! Or at least point in the direction of where I can find these things once I get there?)
Thanks for the post.
[...] avatar’s experience than buildings that give good camera, in Prokofy Neva’s view, who recently outed me as part of the thumb-sucking set who have perhaps spent too much time ‘gazing’ and not [...]
[...] avatar’s experience than buildings that give good camera, in Prokofy Neva’s view, who recently outed me as part of the thumb-sucking set who have perhaps spent too much time ‘gazing’ and not [...]
[...] avatar’s experience than buildings that give good camera, in Prokofy Neva’s view, who recently outed me as part of the thumb-sucking set who have perhaps spent too much time ‘gazing’ and not [...]
Of course your post is on target as usual. While I am sure that Windlight + Havoc4 will raise the bar for online virtual worlds, issue still is attracting/converting new users.
We are going to try to do something here, but it would sure go a lot further if LL had a matching marketing program–ala intel inside.
LL is making some little effort here now with their new “Showcase” http://secondlife.com/showcase/. But not sure that gonna do too much. They would do a lot better with an email campaign to the 12 million people who signed up!
Simple things are too hard to deal with now. Simple example…it takes a ton of time to enter an Event. We all know events are key, but it takes 5 minutes to do something now…and no integration back out from Events to something like Google calendar or even RSS feed. While SL is a very open platform…events are trapped.
But LL is also trapped, they are still dazzled by virtual real estate and missing the point that residents–especially new residents–want to do fun stuff. They want to explore the virtual world and they want to meet people. And it’s not only about sex.
[...] there is this installation I just read about on Dusan Writer’s blog (link). Amazing!!! I haven’t seen this in-world yet, but will let you know what I [...]
Aw, now that picture must be worth another peck on the cheek. Just to make for a little blush to compliment the happy picture.
A perfectly made point. If I’d dare to nitpick, I would however state that I find it pointless to hope for the Lindens to augment the beginner’s experience — simply because I suspect that SL’s burgeoning society has outgrown any concept they might have had of it long ago.
Their failure on elementary governance and customer support, the disastrous Teen Grid and the horrid orientation experience are just cases in point that His Majesty King Philip, for all his benign intentions, is sitting pretty far away on his throne, only very remotely aware what all those pesky colonists in the New World are up to…
By the way, one of the Colonists has come up with a nifty software bridge between the in-world event calendars and the widely accepted ICS format. Head over to the esteemed Ms Ordinal Malaprop’s box of tricks at http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/contents/ to grab the URLs.
I certainly hope Prokofy is wrong, and the virtual interface is more than just a clunky version of real life. yick!
Those who believe their avatar is a human being will always see the differences between the real and the virtual as a stumbling block on the path toward seamless replication of real life. But, those who can get beyond mere physical replication might begin to see those differences as opportunities.
If you could fly in real life, as easily as you can walk, wouldn’t you do it? If your body had an invisible camera you could place anywhere without moving your body, wouldn’t you use it? But, more importantly, wouldn’t you expect your built environment to evolve accordingly? If architects could easily program bricks or walls to be more intelligent and respond to our presence, wouldn’t we take advantage of that feature? Wouldn’t a new kind of architecture evolve, based on those new characteristics?
All we’re doing is designing within context. The context, in this case, happens to be a bit different than physical reality. I think its actually irresponsible to ignore that context and go on placating the lowest common denominator and mindlessly replicating physical reality – just because its easier, or more ‘comfortable’ in the short term. I appreciate traditional design and appropriate applications of physical replication in Second Life as much as anyone, but I also believe we’re all on a collective learning curve, and that there is enough room in the vast grid of Second Life for a few people to try out their ideas, and for others to write out their thoughts and observations about that work. There is nothing wrong with that.
But I really don’t think its appropriate to chase down and argue against those who try to understand or explore these new opportunities, calling them out as thumb-suckers. Granted, innovation isn’t for everyone – especially those who feel threatened by it, or don’t understand it, or don’t like it. That dichotomy is as old as time. But if anyone is sucking their thumbs – wouldn’t it be those who fear innovation, and go around demanding status quo?
[...] and Identity I’ve written at length about the our personal relationships to our avatars, and what I prefer to call the “strange [...]
Just a quick word on alts.
I use an alt to seperate the “normal” me who is pretty out there as far as identity profiling from a character for a specific setting. The example being that I created the alt account of Degan Blackadder sepcifically to be a villain in a fantasy RP setting. Why? Because honestly could you really believe a villain named Mace Maverick? >=)
Haha. Good point.
How about heading over to Twinity where you’re stuck with *gasp* your REAL NAME! What kind of virtual world is THAT?
Thanks Keystone. We’re having fun with the scripts by the way, can’t wait to show you some of the results.
In the meantime, please take note regarding thumb sucking, as I fear being pulled into a wider debate. I have nothing wrong with thumb sucking, and in fact some of my best friends are thumb suckers. Kind thanks.
This is a great post, Dusan, I’m glad to see people writing posts as long as mine, but here’s my immediate response:
“I am large; I contain simultitudes.” per Walt Whitman.
Seriously, this fear of alts, and hatred of changeable and mutating identities may go back very far and deeply to the folklore of all cultures, but let’s not be too precious here.
We seriously need an avatar rights movement to break free of coders, or at least to pit one set of more enlightened coders against the other more endarkened ones who are indeed recreating the Gulag Archiplego literatally and figuratively.
If I have a real-life enterprise for which I need the augmentation or tool of virtuality, I can easily get together in real life in person, by registered mail, by telephone, by email, by whatever, without having to burden the anonymous avatar realm with my needs. The needs are engendered by reality; they can be satisfied in reality without devising elaborate coders’ schemes to tie identity.
All your efforts to make alts come to naught if the coders have ways of tracking your IP, your log-on locations, various other identifying features of your “footprint” that they can process at fantastic speeds to block you everywhere. And that in turn can be used to block your purchases, rentals, sales, etc. in virtuality and truly hobble your expression and even your survival.
I always find it humorous that the technolibertarians are the first to make themselves anonymous, to use anonymizers, to be concerned about anyone tracking them, but then they whole-heartedly embrace — as a class — the most aggressive data-scraping that takes away the privacy of others.
Nick Yee does not understand Second Life; his research is faulty. He’s the guy who could claim that avatars have gazes, and that he can track their genders in this fashion. They don’t have gazes in SL. I’ve challenged him a number of times, but he’s one of those celebrities at Stanford that about whom it’s impossible to get anybody to do the most basic challenge.
I totally repudiate the reductionism and Darwinism implied in Yee’s concept that your avatar’s shape or height or whatever will change your behaviour. This is just old rewarmed Marxism (”the material affects consciouness”), or facile Myspacism, I don’t know which is worse. There are quite short and stout and ugly avatars all over the place, but they can command immense respect and authority — sometimes merely by having the last name “Linden”. An avatar can look like a jailbird, but if he has the last name “Millionsofus,” he’s golden. I’m sorry, but Nick is spouting facile nonsense, drawn from games, and not even a very deep take on games.
I’m glad you’ve marked the concept of “tribal” morality here, because that’s exactly what prevails in SL. Of course, there is very real grounds for fear of the changeable in SL, especially the gender-bending, because there is a small and persistent class of people — especially males — in online communities who delight in tormenting females by pretending to be female and lesbian and partnering with them, or finding real-life males and pretending they are females in RL — and causing a lot of emotional harm (and there are even a few females who crossgender and mislead others about their real lives, too, though it is less common).
This pain in communities has been so great that it has spawned a great deal of the thinking around avatar anonymity — there is nothing people fear and loathe more than the idea that the wrong gender is pairing with them.
Obviously I think people should be free to transgender, but I think they have crossed a moral boundary when they do not let a potential romantic (or even business) partner know their real gender, given how much this still means in the real world.
I’m not buying the concept of “therapy” if “therapeutic” means “I get to make an alt and grief others with harassment.”
There is a quotation from Ayn Rand, whom I normally dislike (I am definitely not a follower of her elitist and callous belief system), that makes sense to me:
“Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage’s whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men. Ayn Rand
However, I like to couple this saying with another quotation:
“When freedom does not have a purpose, when it does not wish to know anything about the rule of law engraved in the hearts of men and women, when it does not listen to the voice of conscience, it turns against humanity and society.” Pope John Paul II
I think you need a more subtle understanding of what it means to be “educated”. It’s not literally about the number of grades you completed in school. It’s about what level of sophistication you have in reflecting upon yourself in an environment, in taking a meta-level take.
The average joe with a high school education or some community college or trade school happily immerses in SL and finds a partner, a sex bed, a home, and goes happily at it. More intelligent, thoughtful, reflective types will write on their profiles that they aren’t available for such casual liasons; and they laughingly tell you that they’d never do anything so ridiculous as cavort on the pose balls. So I’m literally talking about the mediated architecture of sex furniture here, Dusan, if you will — where my point becomes graphic.
The ultra sophisticated will usually tell you that they “don’t need land to have fun” or “don’t understand why people have houses” or “why they have roofs when it’s not raining,” etc. etc. Ok, we got it, guys. Now dig deeper. So I’m glad you *are* digging deeper.
Ian Bogost isn’t really a persuasive reference for me, not to make a pun of it. I find his appallingly politically-correct game narrative a total bore, and frankly oppressive. The one on the fat Americans oppressing the rest of the starving world that he put out recently was especially atrocious. His art of persuasive is more of an orthodox ideological sect, that lock-steps you into coming to the same politically-correct views. These aren’t games; they aren’t even homilies; they are re-education camps. I loathe that.
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse The Place of Alts in Virtual Worlds and Second Life: Possession or Expression Quote from the site – Is having an ‘alt’ in Second Life a moral failing? Where does “Your [...]
Keystone, the minute you can stop making your living from Second Life, you will have a more sanguine view of all this. Until then, sure, you can dine out on the sheer aesthetics of it all.
Thumb-sucking isn’t about being infantile; the term “a thumbsucker” is newspaper newsroom jargon for “a long piece in which someone has a deep thought”. That’s all. You need not read into it some terrible dramatic commentary.
I find it fascistic that Keystone is now kow-towing to the Mau-Mauers and insisting that we aestheticize — or else! Or else we are *gasp* playing to the lowest common denominator!
As a rental agent, I can only *serve* my customers. And what they want is versimilitude, a comfort level for avatars, a certain kind of aesthetic, that will hardly be the politically-correct aesthetic that Keystone, as a professional architect would want, especially one trying to carve out some sort of whole neo-geo field with all this.
Keystone, what’s awful about what you write is that you imagine that if I serve the pedestrian customers’ need for low-brow builds and prefab architecture and date destinations, that I’m oppressing you with some imagined majority. But in Second Life, that is sheer and utter bullshit, because anyone can buy an island, and do what the hell they want on their island or continent –as you have done — and never fly around and see the tacky McMansions and Goth Castles of Second Life if they don’t wish to harm their eyeballs.
Nobody is stopping you from your “few ideas”. And your few ideas are…what? Recreating the Capitol Building of the US Congress *exactly as it is in real life*? Hello?
This stateement is truly beneath you, Keystone, as you know perfectly well that I give these issues a great deal of thought and do a great deal of reading on the subject:
“Granted, innovation isn’t for everyone – especially those who feel threatened by it, or don’t understand it, or don’t like it. That dichotomy is as old as time. But if anyone is sucking their thumbs – wouldn’t it be those who fear innovation, and go around demanding status quo?”
I don’t feel threatened by innovation — please cut the bullshit. What I *will* do is call innovation that is just as tacky and facile and reiterative as any kid’s fractal art exactly what it is. I don’t see that plains of blinking lights or geometric sculptures are even good art, let alone architecture. THAT is the debate. Frankly, it’s a debate I had about the winners of that contest — and I was surprised and pleased to see that Lordfly, whom surely you can respect as “one of your own,” even if a junior variety, had the exact same problems with: pretentiousness, overmathematical solutions, showy discomfort in the name of edginess, etc.
Nobody is demanding the Status Quo, Keystone, give it a break (um, Capitol Hill, anyone?!). I’m challenging pretentiousness, and facile crap, that’s all.
For example, this sort of hortatory lecture, from an anti-consumerist, pastoral, anti-capitalist sort of leftist ideology:
“to deconstruct visual media so that we understand how advertising, for example, uses images to persuade us to buy things we don’t need, or go places we don’t need to see, so too does it become incumbent on us to explore how virtual worlds and the objects within them can create a new rhetorical language the purpose of which is not to just make it easier to get into a shop or to maximize camera angles, but to persuade for other purposes as well.”
Um, why? Why do we have to ‘deconstruct” an ad and find this political evil underneath? Couldn’t we just interpret it as a company with a brand, that we may or may not click through, may or may not enjoy? Must we always play the victim of the leftwing view of the world, suppressed by evil corporations pinning us down with ads? couldn’t we just *like to shop* ???
Some new sort of virtual architecture inspires. It doesn’t have to have medieval or Cape Cod or quaint versimilitude to be comfortable; it can question cliches. There are great architects in SL who soar, who use the tools to the maximum, who create interesting spaces. But so often, even these very good ones, are making sculptural monuments to their own fanciful notion of themselves as being edgy, and it becomes very unpleasant after awhile to actually try to live in these artifacts.
It’s funny how, completely independently of Rezzable, using much less sophisticated tools (snapshots on my homegrown newsletter for my sims) I came up with the same conclusion today on my own blog: we are churning way too many sign-ups with far too little numbers retaining (we all knew that)– but worse, we are losing rapidly even those who retain, not logging on again after 60 days.
I know 10 games that I’ve tried and never gotten off the orientation island or first frames — WoW, Twinity, Guild Wars, Eve Online among many. Why? Because they were too hard too learn, not satisfying enough in their activities, too limited, or too complicated, too hot, or too cold. That’s life in the Metaverse.
But SL shouldn’t be like a hard first-person shooter game — it should be fun like Facebook and easy like Yahoo — at least, that’s what many people coming to it hope from it.
Like others, it took me 2 tries to get on SL and stay, and the second time was a very slow curve up about five months before I really got it to work for me.
A really big problem I’m seeing now in SL is vast hordes of newbies who don’t have money and don’t have direction, worse than ever. The intelligentsia of the various countries whose geeks have gotten into SL, and whose handful of creatives have gotten in, aren’t bringing in the rest of the educated classes. Only consumer-oriented people are coming, but they aren’t educated consumers, i.e. sophisticated in knowing what they can get out of a virtual world.
Second Life needs to be a leisure activity before it can become a labour activity, and for far too many people, SL is work — even camping and plucking money trees is like skill-grinding work, with little reward. People with disposable income and disposable time need to feel a huge rush, and a huge payoff from SL quickly and really get engaged — and they don’t. They need to feel they have social potential they don’t have in RL, or intellectual potential they don’t have in RL, and somehow SL is failing to give this to them rapidly enough.
Unlike Himoff, I don’t imagine some other competitor, even with an inferior platform, will take over from those who disengaged from SL because those people either went to Myspace or WoW or the mall — or back to listening to NPR or reading Slate. Until the thinking people in many countries are inspired to understand this SL simulation will be very valuable for real life prototyping, it will not succeed.
You’re absolutely right that grid stability means nothing. We froze and crashed on the Sims — that didn’t drive us to SL. What drove us to SL is that the most creative people among us got tired of the tools’ limitations and migrated, and we followed them. And then more ordinary consumer types followed simply because the world where they were seemed to have people lacking in interest.
Education is being touted as the next big thing, but it can only become that if it truly breaks down tradition and makes real schools without walls. If I can pay some low fee and take a real class. If I can actually full-fledged degree online with interactivity in SL. If I can audit a professor or have a round-table with other thinkers that really matters — if the university can really behave like the university, and not a Sears catalogue of purchases I make to credential me for my first job as so often it is in RL nowadays.
Lindens already worry far too much about newbies, Dusan. That’s the whole reason why they are so hobbled. They infantalize and therefore cripple newbies, sequestering them on islands and smothering them with Mentors. There is only one cure for this: opening up advertising to businesses and nonprofits. When people can find their interest cohorts, whether they be book clubs or dance clubs, through boards they can click on and teleport to, we will clear some of this hurdle. We need to find ways to make “home stays” which are the most important factor in absorbing any influx of migrants in any world — the people who can take on a newbie and mentor him not according to the company’s script, but by his own set of interests among his cohorts.
What’s happening now is the Lindens are farming out the care and feeding of newbies to their friends in various special corporations, and also letting their FIC-y mentors run the hubs. They should close down all the orientation stations as most of the content is not used or understood, and rework the entire thing as really a big party, a social gathering, a vivid, interactive search come alive, with tableaus, so to speak, displays, demonstrations, portals, ads for people to pick their interests and go to them — not as set-piece tutorials but with people.
The resident-made infohub concept should be expanded in lieu of these re-education labour camps on OIs that force avatars to learn to fly or drive vehicles when they could care less about driving, especially in a world with such rough sim crossings. Vehicle driving is one of the most minority activities in SL, and inflicting that on the newcomer is really torture.
Imagine, I’ve been in SL for 3 years, I made an alt, and couldn’t get off the damn OI myself because the system had grabbed me, hog-tied me, and put me on a track I couldn’t get out of to learn to fly at some sort of aviation tower that I couldn’t even find. Bleh. I finally picked my way through to the “get off the island” kiosk — which should be 16 m2 from the landing point, not located across and obstacle course!
I totally agree that the Lindens need to dump their fixation on early adapters and even mid-adapters. But…They’ve been obsessed about newbies as creatures that need to be swaddled and taught to script and build and drive laggy vehicles and dream of Havoc 4, however (a function of their orientation to early adapters).
We need to pry their hands off all this and find ways for various businesses, nonprofits, venues of various sorts to take the newbies with their affinities, and for the masses who can’t pick an affinity, to have a greater party-like socializing experience which they can then opt to leave to learn if they like, intead of forcing people to learn in a bootcamp before they socialize.
And when I say “party,” I don’t mean dance poles. I mean the wine and cheese party at your college after a poetry reading.
Virtual real estate satisfies a lot of people — it is the engine of SL’s growth, such as it is, to this date, whether any tekkie wants to admit it or not, or whether any “date destination” like the Rezzable sims wants to admit it or not. And virtual sex matters to a lot of people, and that’s fine.
But it’s not enough, because people need to make friends and make connections, and not only romantic ones. They can do this when there are more event hosts.
Event hosting is a thankless, impoverishing job. Those of us who have taken on this job know that it is an uphill struggle, and that even when the Lindens paid you, or even when the Sheep pays you, it is a slog, and it’s hard to expect it to be anything else. A lot of the success of Second Life has hinged upon the willingness of primarily female residents being willing to host people and hold their hands through orientation experiences. There is no substitute for the enormous amount of manpower needed for this job, the labour intensity, the diversity, the more sophisticated tools needed (better groups, more groups, less buggy groups).
People don’t like to just go and gaze passively at fabulous builds that leave them in awe, but have no place for them. They can sometimes have more fun on something simpler, and interactive, but more social.
The Showcase is a welcome development just because the Lindens are finally moving away from only feting scripters and their favourite designers and showing more diversity like live music or education or interesting venues. But they need to enable the community to constantly expand and refresh these pages, and currently, they are hostage to a funnelling through a few Lindens.
>LL is making some little effort here now with their new “Showcase” http://secondlife.com/showcase/. But not sure that gonna do too much. They would do a lot better with an email campaign to the 12 million people who signed up!
Says Himoff, whose Rezzable sims are *featured* in this Showcase (!). I think it’s too much to ask the Lindens also to email 12 million people for you. I think you need to do your own advertising in the audiences that you think could enjoy these sims.
Dusan, great post, very thought provoking and a lot to go on. Worth going back to read again, and dip into all the other references to.
Then I’ll work out perhaps what I should feel about my alt, as I have Heleno for work, and an alt not for work. Not that my alt gets up to anything outrageous but its an easier way to separate work and home. Funnily enough, it seems easier in the real world to do that.
Some people know both my identities, but they are people that I chose to share that with. Its not meant for any form of deception, and more for personal exploration whilst not limiting my virtual experiences for fear of jeopardising real life.
Great debate to have!
[...] Place of Alts in Second Life There is a really fascinating, and challenging, piece on Dusan Writer’s Metaverse blog today about the rights and wrongs, good and bad things, about having an alternative avatar in Second [...]
Good trail of thought, and good original post.
What do you care what Prokofy Neva thinks?
Your own experiences cannot be denied. Your thoughts cannot be denied, your perspective cannot be denied. This you know. Prokofy Neva vacillates according to what her mood is and she is never kind except to those she adores (how few they are). She rarely has an original thought and likes to tear into the thoughts of others who dare look at things differently.
Keep looking, observing and writing. What you do has value – if this were not true, Prokofy Neva wouldn’t be trying to tear you down.
I find it humorous that the Dispeptic Penguin has to stalk me here to a debate about aesthetics. I’m not the one who titled a post after some individual whose perfectly-normal comments about over-pontificating about art in SL were seized by Dusan and put into a whole blog post title. My word, such drama lol.
I don’t deny Dusan’s experiences, but I’m merely eager to affirm my own, so that we don’t get smothered under the horridly politically-correct aesthetics of the hour that we suffer under in real life.
I hardly think I’m a vacillater; I don’t play Second Life stock markets like Nobody.
Dusan writes snarkily, that I supposedly think SL is “nothing much more than a domain for human activity, with all the implied utilitarian needs such as good camera angles, good governance, and a robust real estate market, I can’t help wondering whether my attention span is too limited for immersive virtuality and that maybe I should switch back to lower-realm pursuits like Warcraft”
Uhmmm “a domain for human activity” is a very, very large canvas. What, there is something inhuman, or something ethereal about ourselves online? But I take the human being to be an ensouled body, I don’t create any sort of Manichean dissection between the meat-world typist and the meta-world consciousness invested in the avatar — they are integrated, and on a continuum.
Perhaps Dusan really does feel it differently, and that’s fine, but that’s hardly a reason to accuse me of attempting to dumb down SL to utilitarian needs for cybersex in suburban box houses.
Good governance, good camera angles, and a robust real estate market may seem like horribly mundane, tasteless, even philistine goals, but they are merely the substrate for the higher things in life to which Dusan aspires.
I don’t understand why we need to be *bludgeoned* by art or *sliced to ribbons* by architecture. Can’t we go on a sim, have an aesthetic experience like holding hands and singing and listening and watching Dizzy Banjo’s thingie, or the Twitter fountain, or whatever, and then *go home to our Frank Lloyd Wright prefabs on our landscaped sims?* I mean, must we live the life of a Bohemian, or even a starving artist living out of a trashcan with the hobos in Calletta, in order to appreciate art?
I don’t *substitute* good camera angles, good governance, and a robust real estate market (which drives the SL economy, like it or not, or I wouldn’t care; if it were widgets, I’d care about widgets but it’s not widgets) for art. I say “and this, too”. I say “and don’t impose the harshness of your cerebral aesthetic on my simulation”. And that’s more than fine. I’m allowed to do that and not be hopelessly cast down to the cheap seats with the hot buttery popcorn because in real life, I can appreciate art in museums; I can take part in artistic mashups and happenings and installations, but then I can *go home*.
And I don’t see why I can’t *go home* in a virtual world. In fact, as it happens, I don’t have a home. I’m actually one of those people who doesn’t feel any burning need for my flying avian avatar to have a human-like home with a roof over its head.
But I appreciate the creature needs of others who *do* want the roof. I think my thoughts here in fact are rather original. Dusan is joining the throngs of aesthetes who always take the edgy noveau thing and become enraptured by the sheer non-normalcy of it — Keystone, too, is entranced with spinning lights and prims — shiny!. I appreciate it but I don’t wish to be stampeded by it, just as they don’t wish to be stampeded by things they don’t have a comfort level with.
Nexeus Fatale has an interesting view on alts…commented over on his blog. http://www.nexeusfatale.com/journal/managing-your-%e2%80%9calt%e2%80%9d/#comment-7637
He takes the view that alts are primarily possessions…extensions in some limited way of who we are, but more within the context of our investment of time and attention in each of these alts. He proposes this doesn’t do anything to change that it’s still “all me” just different parts of me with different roles.
I propose that this would be true except that the code actually constrains our abilities to choose the manner in which these different roles can be expressed, which picks up on Prok’s points (more about after a good sleep
)
If we view and describe avatars as possessions or ‘extensions’ of ourselves, as game worlds do in which their function is first the accomplishments of goals (no matter how slowly or with how much socializing you attain those goals) then we’re missing a larger question which is whether the code and the ‘policy authorities’ (platform owners but ALSO those in the world with us) are constricting our abilities to control our expression, and thus setting us up to buy into a morality without even realizing it’s being sold to us.
>The reality is that our bodies do not make part of it. Can a space which our bodies do not actually sense, feel and know, be called truly a human space
I realize you would like to be more metaphysical about this, but you can also look at it more practically. Your senses see a space rendered — and your senses actually do sense the space by sight and sound, and to a minor extent, touch (via the mouse). If something comes right at you, you might wince. If there is a loud noise, you might jump. So you are in a space, reacting, and being immersed, you have construed it, or constructed a working map of it, so to speak. I don’t see that this is all that different from coming into a real life room and taking in the space and navigating your way around it.
What a stunning coupling of quotations Prok, capturing in a few lines what would take me another novel to try to sum up. A few comments of my own in response if you’ll indulge me.
First, I don’t have any particular opinion about Yee’s research. I’m not very good at evaluating methodologies and so on, but intuitively some of his findings strike me as a little off the wall. His idea that people react spatially in SL like they do in RL is an example – he seems to claim that with people we don’t know, we tend not to look at them, staring away at other things, sort of denoting shyness and self-protection. I won’t dig into his methodology, but what I do know is that with AOs and different choices for where you hover your camera and perspective the idea of “look at” as a mechanism for measuring what we pay attention to is an odd one.
However, I will say that in game environments it does feel like it makes sense that our choice of avatars affects how we’re able to relate to others. Think of it like being in school and picking members of a team – I’m more likely to grab a human warrior than the gnome warrior, even if they have comparable skills…somehow a tall buff human commands more attention than the gnome, unless you start overlaying reputation (consider it a blinded trial). Therefore, if others react to us differently because of our avatars, then it seems to make some intuitive sense that we’d start to act differently too (or at least those of us who pick up on social cues because of insecurities or other reasons).
Not to bring Castranova into things, but he made the interesting observation that one of the appeals of gaming platforms is that everyone starts out at the bottom. In fact, social convention in games tends to discourage helping out the newbie other than peripherally, and certainly not in a way that would threaten equality of opportunity. The idea of everyone having the same starting point is preserved through social constructions and the code. Thus, the idea that buying a level 40 character in WoW is against many user’s ‘moral code’ because it bypasses equality of opportunity.
I’d argue that your choice of AV impacts the social dynamic you have with other people, but doesn’t negate your ability to command respect, Linden behind your name or not. Some people may dislike furrys, for example, but that doesn’t mean that a furry can’t be as revered as a human male, it just makes the path through the ‘lower levels’ different.
This on its own is a rich vein for study or reflection. When IBM joined the Linux community it was a newbie like everyone else, picking up the grunt code work, participating, and trying the best it could to shelve its corporate paternal instincts. You come to the game with bad hair and one of 8 pre-defined shapes – what you do with it is your own business, but we all start off in roughly the same place.
I think this speaks to a wider question, which is how reputation is established, which then brings us back to issues of identity, trust and anonymity. Mark Bell recently asked whether object camping was affecting the economy – kind of an odd question, I thought, as if gifts as part of camping were something new.
But I also think he missed the broader point, which is that I’d guess that the “real economy” is a mere sliver of the transactional economy. 10%? 5%? Giving gifts, sending someone a script, giving someone a vehicle – this is probably where most of the real ‘value’ in SL takes place and I’ve argued that we should look at SL like we’d look at open source or Wikipedia – economic value isn’t measured in those instances of value creation by how many ads are sold but rather how much content is created and shared.
In SL, the real estate market is a significant measure of growth or stagnation, and I don’t argue against its importance, but I’d also argue that there are invisible economies (or ones that aren’t measured) namely in the ‘out of world’ transactions and those in world where no Lindens change hands (the gift economy, which contributes to relationships, status, and the net value of the objects that have been created whether sold or not).
Which circles me back to the point that so long as we look ONLY at value creation as forms of possession, the longer we’ll be open to potentially being victimized by the code. It’s not just a question about whether assuming an alt is ‘deceptive’ to others, but it’s that the code first denies a wider range of choice, because while SL is an open world, our tools for construction of trust, transparency, and freedom from tracking by the platform owner have limitations. Second, and for whatever reasons, a tribal morality increasingly governs virtual worlds which is either a worrisome trend or an indication that perhaps we’re striving for a pre-rational way of engaging with society (intriguingly on a platform that by virtue of being code is completely rational even if not rationally constructed at times).
When I hear discussions of alts, they seem to revolve around “I needed an alt in order to be able to go somewhere/participate in something/etc” that I can’t do with my main, or “I need an alt because I want a personal and a business presence”.
The first seems to reaffirm the sense of a tribal morality, with people getting upset because someone is running off from their usual social circles under an alt identity…social pressure to “stay with the family”. I’m not sure whether this is good or bad, but SL is constructed mainly on the premise of a territorial morality. In a world that’s supposed to be about ‘your world, your imagination’ it seems a radical notion to put pressure on someone not to have 5 girlfriends or to be a Gor in the morning and a mom at night so long as they don’t directly intrude on others.
What I fear, however, is that people get lost in parsing personal dynamics and end up spending all their time talking about time and balance, and not enough time wondering whether the platform itself, through the restrictions built into the code, the lack of ability to assure privacy from code/IP/log and log-in information from the platform owners, and the inability to choose our level of information participation through identity toggles or other means is facilitating a social morality where groups in SL tend to ban together and discourage what is the promise of the platform – maximum choice, maximum protection from intrusion, and the ability to be anything and go anywhere without restriction or fear.
Thanks for the stimulating thoughts. In the interests of full disclosure, I did intend to sound snarky but it was really meant in a respectful way. And I mean that in the sense that I was hoping to draw attention to the continuum of meaning that we can draw from architecture in SL, and reflective architecture in particular.
In my original post, I made the point that a lot of building design in SL is crap. Doors on stores, closed roofs where maybe we don’t need one (a mall, for example), and “bad camera” highlight that at its most basic level there’s still lots of room for talent and effort in creating buildings we can live in. Also in the interests of full disclosure I’m an amateur builder myself – I make those houses that people *go home* to.
So it strikes me as odd that I’d be painted as having merely an interest in shiny prims, although I realize that in my post this is how I may have portrayed myself. Look – the stuff I make is all labeled “beach house” and “loft” and “prefab” and the ads include things like “menu-driven bed included”. Really, it’s not particularly good, but then I’m not an architect or a designer, I just like moving prims around. I make it because I like the idea of people being able to go home at night to something that maybe feels right for them, they have a roof over their head, they can click a button and the windows black out – good, practical, let’s live our SL lives well kind of stuff.
So on one end of the spectrum is the Neva Thumb Sucking test – and take that as a tribute: are we looking at buildings and architecture and drooling over it because it’s shiny looking or moves in neat ways, i.e. are we thumb sucking, or are we looking at whether we can live in it, be practical, and ‘get good camera’. Prok – goodness knows you have a wider range than just one end of this spectrum, but my deeper point about reflective architecture isn’t that the other end of the spectrum is art, but rather that it may be a conceptual form rather than a aesthetic one.
Maybe that’s my projection onto forms that are really nothing more than fancy math, ‘art for art’s sake’, or designed for the aesthetes. But I’m proposing that reflective architecture may be an early indicator not of its use as a form for building design, but rather its use in conceptual and procedural mapping.
Bogost is one of the driest, most irritating reads I’ve had in a long time, but I was still struck by his idea that 3D spaces may be a new rhetorical vehicle, adding to verbal and visual rhetoric. Agreed, we can create a “room” in RL that does neat stuff, attend artistic mash-ups, but it’s very difficult to pull off procedural exhibits in the real world…they tend to end up on kiosks or computer screens, don’t they?
(I also think this is why for all our talk about immersive virtuality that things will really start getting interesting when we see more and more augmented reality and the ability to integrate real and virtual spaces).
To give a corny, simple example of reflective architecture. In Project Bluegrass by IBM you’re assigned a “hut” (let’s face it, a crappy digital version of an office cubicle). Depending how much work you have on your plate, the grass around your hut is either short, or long. If it’s long and weedy, other people can see that you’re jammed up, if it’s short people can see that maybe you can take on more work.
Now, there’s no question this visual indication of work load can be accomplished in a lot of different ways. But as reflective architecture is starting to show us, 3D forms offer different approaches to how we can participate by presenting it in a space that’s constructed like we’re used to – namely 3D.
Here’s what I imagine: reflective architecture (and I would LOVE to insert the word “information” there, because I am NOT talking about building design) leads to a better understanding of how our avatar presence can be reacted to by information objects – objects that have their own procedural commands, which may imply its own procedural rhetoric.
This understanding leads to someone thinking about reflective (information) architecture as something that could apply, say, to generating cloud tags of the Second Life geography. These cloud tags are sim wide, 3D conceptual maps – intuitive, and responsive.
Users come and the cloud tag has words like Education, Sex, Scripting, Real Estate, Community – and as the user approaches the terms of interest, the cloud tag responds, and the words splice out, changing to REFLECT the user’s interest (indicated by their movement through the space). The user can click on one of the tag items and be teleported to, say, Midian City, or Caledon, or NASA.
Just one example – cloud tags, semantic Webs, project tasks, collaborative 3D Wikis…that’s what I mean by reflective architecture as being an eye-opener, not on whether it improves how we relate to “buildings”.
So if reflective architecture commands our ability to project future conceptual architectures, then I’d also say that in its current uses as a form of art it doesn’t merely entertain, but also highlights that it may be an indication of new forms of persuasion, and that from this vantage we should use it as a way to begin a discussion about whether immersive virtuality actually is a new persuasive media, or whether all of this is merely thumb-sucking.
Prok, your point is well taken that there’s no particular divide between meat world and meta world. And yeah, there’s enough ivory tower types deconstructing media as it is – frankly, I generally know when I’m being manipulated by media, and do so with consent sometimes when it’s done well (hello, Apple!) and don’t need a scholarly journal to tell me that.
I spend a lot of time telling people not IN virtual worlds that it’s the SAME thing – tell them not to think of it as somewhere else, or a different domain, or having different symbols or meanings.
On the other hand, I think that virtual worlds add a dimension (sorry) to the Web in the sense that they’re media where code allows us to interact with objects, and that in the hands of knowledgeable and talented creators, these objects can persuade us in ways that a TV ad can’t.
I may not want to LIVE in reflective architecture because it wouldn’t pass the thumb-sucking test. But that doesn’t mean I don’t want to look at it, because when I do I start to visualize new ways of presenting and interacting with information, the ability for this to be persuasive, and the potential that it won’t lead to a top selling beach house but it may be the source of new tools for conceptualization and information manipulation.
[...] Writer, ‘IBM on the Importance of Second Life Integration‘, Dusan Writer’s Metaverse. Accessed 19th January 2008. [...]
[...] virtual world literacy facilitating freedom, or quasi-religious indoctrination? On the heels of my previous post about alts, and the insightful commentary that followed from others, I ran across an intriguing [...]
[...] & Alts Add Dusan Writer has an excellent essay on alts in Second Life and I am reminded that I promised someone an essay on identity some time ago and [...]
Thanks so much for linking us to your response and thoughts. We couldn’t agree more that there is a need for bringing to surface the awareness that communication technology – like any other – is an extension of the choices we make. In particular there is no de-fault ethical setting encoded in virtual worlds. However – we do feel that the political imagination of emerging virtual generations will continue to make the most of the rhetoric of freedom of expression, creativity and friendship that circulates in that universe. This will, in turn, shape the direction of evolving technologies. The touchstone for this will of course always be that point of awareness. No escaping that. (By the way – we have never had a complaint so far about the the symbolic airoots background in our design. However thanks for your input!)
[...] Sculpt Tool/Lathe for Second Life January 27, 2008 — dusanwriter I recently touched on Archipelis as a possible option for creating sculpts for Second Life. For Second Life [...]
I’m glad I came across your blog and look forward to following your other thoughts and work. Must be my eyes – the text/background just made it a tough read…age, or too many hours in virtual spaces perhaps.
I know that my post sounded a bit gloomy but I think that since I’ve started to write this blog a few months ago I’ve been, and remain, optimistic about the opportunities for this technology. In fact, the previous sub-title of the blog was virtual worlds, creativity, and spirituality.
I agree that there are no default ethical ’settings’ to virtual worlds, but by virtue of being built they each have within them preconditions that may influence our ability to behave and to influence our ethical framework.
The issue of privacy, for example…on one platform, a surveillance society and on another anonymity to the exclusion of the ability to achieve identity trust. Either end of the spectrum colors our ability to make choices and I’m arguing that individuals (not ethicists, just ordinary ‘users’) begin to behave in specific virtual worlds within certain ethical frameworks because the platforms are built to encourage it.
On the one hand a lack of guarantees by platform owners that they’ll delete chat logs between users and on the other hand the New Yorker article this week (I don’t read or watch the news so I’m sure it isn’t newsworthy) of the girl who killed herself because a “boy” on mySpace harassed her. Anonymity allowed her next door neighbor to disguise herself as a boy.
In both cases, the coding of the platform leaves a different range of choices.
I am in complete agreement with your sentiment about “the political imagination of emerging virtual generations”. It’s not the emerging generations I’m worried about, frankly. It’s the political, corporate and societies who will be upending in their wake, a new age of collaborative creation in which hierarchies dissolve or reconfigure, and expression takes precedence over control.
Interesting times as they say, and I am optimistic because of the power these technologies bring towards furthering creativity and global friendships, and pessimistic that the response to change by the current ’stakeholders’ won’t bring with it new unforeseen risks to our liberty.
(Hey, anyone have a writ from the record companies I can post?)
[...] voice communications. My issue with a light client and Web-based interfaces to SL (see my post on Movable) is – well, you may not be in world but your avatar is, and tends to stand there slack-jawed or [...]
[...] Original post by Dusan Writer’s Metaverse [...]
Oh yes – no denying there is a whole nest of vested interests stalking the virtual world and making the most of what it can control. There is a flatness to the commercial exploitation of the culture of friendship (technological controls and the whole format of Facebook for example) – and all the other issues you list. There is not enough narrativizing to produce a counter-discourse. Not enough mythologies. We can’t depend entirely on the goodwill of the emerging generation either. There is a huge need to be proactive. Airoots will soon launch an inter-active cyber-novel dealing with some of these issues. Can you suggest any links of other narrative-based, creative critiques that may help us?
Wow….mythology….stay tuned, post to follow on that very topic. None jump to mind but I’ll check my delicious links
– there’s stuff on there I have forget I tagged. And keep us posted on the cyber-novel sounds wonderful.
I research synthetic environments on a nearly daily basis, and I just had to say that this is one of the most exciting developments I’ve seen – to say there are huge possbilities here would be an understatement. Thanks to Dusan for bringing it to our attention.
Nice work.
I appreciate your attempt to get at some of the complexities involved in virtual worlds and I think it’s crucial that we try hard to not split VW/RW into distinct (or semi-distinct) boundaries that encourage value judgments and hierarchy-making. But I think this notion of “freedom” that’s being worried and debated is a difficult word and space to grapple with, especially on the terms presented above. Does anyone really believe that there is anywhere to “opt out” to? Where would that be? I’m not suggesting that we’re inhabiting a totalizing 1984 universe–but I find it confusing and at times silly that people still believe that utopias are to be found in cyberspace. If they are, they’re momentary, provisional, and perpetually prey to colonization. Power is always on the move and we really can see this explicitly in cyberspace. Most of all I’m troubled by this distinction between our “business” identities and our “private” identities. This notion of a “private” self is as historically constructed as Anderson’s “imagined” communities and carries similar sets of contradictions, pleasures, disappointments, and abuses. I appreciate any and all efforts to keep the internet “free,” but I also believe we need to discard any notions of fixed destinations and “outsides.” Why do we have to leave anyhow? Why not attempt to transform the “inside”?
I should have mentioned that what I found most troubling/confusing in the above posts was this sentence:
“It’s the political, corporate and societies who will be upending in their wake, a new age of collaborative creation in which hierarchies dissolve or reconfigure, and expression takes precedence over control.”
Do you really believe that expression can be extracted from control and vice versa? Are they opposites/contraries?
Curious…
Eric:
Thanks for your insightful reply….I’ve opened up these notions mostly because I’m at the “know what I don’t know” stage…and as I’ve amply demonstrated, that usually means I’m not very coherent.
It’s my feeling that in virtual worlds, and in particular the growing availability of “open” worlds (like SL and as opposed to MMORPG), concepts of privacy and identity are often debated at a superficial level.
The reason this and my original posts were about alts was to highlight that we’re making value judgments about how we use our time and present ourselves in virtual worlds without thinking or articulating that these decisions are already constrained by the technology, the code, and the platform owners. Once we sign off on the TOS and the EULA, we are co-creating our in world presence with the platforms themselves, and by doing so accept but don’t always articulate that the restrictions on our choice have implications.
People talk about alts and use ideas like “different alts for different tasks” “business versus personal” and “needing some time for myself” and while all of these reasons can be perfectly valid, I stand by the idea that we only need to resort to these reasons because the code and the platform have constrained choice.
I’m sorry, but I work enough as it is, and I’d like the ability to turn off any work-related IMs after 9, say. But I can’t. So, it starts to look more and more attractive to have a separate avatar for the purposes of managing vendors and all the attendant IMs. This is as true in WoW as it is in SL – characters who act as banks, for example, help bypass the code which makes travel to markets a time investment, and act as sorting zones for group loot distribution.
But I’m trying very hard not confuse the issue here of identity with avatar expression. I’m making the argument that many are creating seemingly different versions of their ‘avatar identities’ in virtual worlds, which isn’t the same as saying that we HAVE different identities. They are doing so sometimes because the code leads them that way.
I am in full agreement and have argued in this blog on several occasions that there’s no split between real and virtual. Different expressions of our identity are parts of the whole, it’s just that the tools are different. Just as I might speak differently as a learner than a teacher, I might express myself in different ways in a virtual world through different presentations of my avatar and the spaces I interact with. However, my point about the separation of business/personal was again to highlight that the code leads us to behave in a way where it’s an incentive to start “splitting” our personas.
I’ve also argued previously that while it’s nice to think we’re fully integrated human beings, I’m not sure that the therapy business would be as successful as it is if it wasn’t for individual’s feelings that there’s “parts of themselves missing” or “things about themselves they need to explore”.
Your comment on the private self is interesting, however, and I’d like to understand that more, but whether it’s true or not that there’s no such thing as the private self, I can’t help thinking that people might confuse the desire for privacy with the need for a private self. The private self may be historically constructed…and if that’s true, then maybe my comments about the growing prevalence of a tribal morality in virtual worlds might also be a return to cultural norms in which social identity and identification dissolves the idea of the private?
I have a large number of friends who maintain separate online IDs….and not just for virtual worlds, but for mailing lists, Web-based forms, mySpace, etc. Whether their “private selves” are really illusions or not, I can’t say, these are all just intuitive ideas really…and the craving for protected private identity in an increasingly transparent and monitored world seems to be gaining rather than waning.
They would LIKE the ability to opt out of spaces within virtual worlds. I’m not saying opt out of worlds, but different spaces will have different levels of needs for what kind of information is collected, shared, and what levels of controls we have over our expression of ourselves and the information we share. I’m not arguing for an opt out/opt in for virtual worlds, but rather for the idea that it’s transparency rather than freedom that’s the end goal.
I may decide to attend a class in a virtual space, and when I sign up for the class I’d like to know whether I’m being graded, tracked, and whether my comments are being recorded. I may decide to attend a concert in a virtual space and I’d like to know the same thing. Transparency gives me the freedom to choose whether to participate and how – my decision is my own, but I don’t need to opt out and go “someplace else” – you’re right, there’s no “outside”, but there are rooms on the inside whose doors I may choose not to open.
Eben Moglen put it quite nicely when he said there should be two rules for virtual spaces:
One: Avatars ought to exist independent of any individual social contract put forward by any particular space. And two: Social contracts ought to be available in a machine readable form which allows the avatar projection intelligence to know exactly what the rules are and to allow you set effective guidelines about I don’t go to spaces where people don’t treat me in ways that I consider to be crucial in my treatment.
Finally…I take your point. Expression and control can not be extracted from each other. So I amend…
“It’s not the emerging generations I worry about. It’s the political, corporate and social groups (who have until now largely controlled the outlets of expression) that will be upending in their wake, a new age of collaborative creation in which hierarchies dissolve or reconfigure, and our right to have control over expression takes precedence over leaving it to others.”
Thanks for the lengthy and intelligent reply here, Dusan. I should admit right off the bat that I’m not much of a VW adept (by choice, I think) but I do own a computer and do use this computer for purposes where the RW elides with the VW (Myspace, Facebook, blogs, etc). But I have an ambivalent investment in most of these apps and typically integrate my RW identities as much as possible in to the VW ones (To illustrate your/my point about the difficulty in delineating a clear boundary line between VW/RW: What does one do with a Myspace profile that pretty accurately reflects the RW self, but at the same time, doesn’t?). The long and short of it: I have no serious investment in deliberate roleplaying within a controlled virtual environment. That being said, I am fascinated by subject-formation, especially within the context of this overarching public/private duality we tend to operate through. And I’m just now beginning to explore how subjectivity is built, remade, and often (to my disappointment) reinforced in VWs (the little I’ve seen of SL seems to simply reflect predictable RW lifestyles, though I have a feeling some deeper digging may complicate this observation–at least I hope so).
Your points about the limited terms of identity play are well-taken. If one goes into a VW with the hopes of articulating, exploring, and perhaps even embodying a multitude of identities or continuums along one vast identity path, one would be well-equipped in recognizing that one’s options are partially pre-determined by the world context entered (i.e. the program/app itself). This reinforces my point about freedom. Freedom is a useful formula if we’re constantly re-defining it. Constantly. If we leave off with half-baked feelgood rallying cries about the wide open future and re-configured hierarchies, emotions, relationships, etc. without recognizing how contradicted these things are from the getgo, I’m betting that the future will eventually look a lot like the present–and the past (I see parallels in the passionate rallying around Obama’s presidential run right now).
As for the public/private divide– again, your point about wanting a self at least tentatively free from the methodical eyes of the corporate/governmental realm makes absolute sense. However, as a somewhat inchoate closing suggestion–wouldn’t it be nice to begin to transform the business/official world so that the personal might operate and express itself more “freely” there? Utopic, I know. I know.
Yes, it would be nice. And utopic, perhaps….but at some point when I stumbled down whatever rabbit hole I’ve found myself in (and it’s as much about stuff in the ‘real’ as anywhere, but I won’t bore you with my personal life) I found myself adopting the following as a utopic vision for myself, although know I’ll never reach paradise:
We must become ignorant
Of all we’ve been taught,
And be, instead, bewildered.
Run from what’s profitable and comfortable
If you drink those liqueurs, you’ll spill
The spring waters of your real life.
Forget safety.
Live where you fear to live.
Destroy your reputation.
Be notorious.
I have tried prudent planning
Long enough, from now
On, I’ll live mad.
-Rumi
[...] open up its servers over the coming quarters towards “multiple grids by 2009″ (see my previous post) is driven at all by the accompanying mad rush of developers in all corners to open source other [...]
all true, good to see some lessons learned about 3d worlds and media… as well as some now ready to ask for reality, not fantasy from these tool and “service” providers. welcome;)_
BTW- we launched multiple PODBALL fileds this week, as well as a full RPG infocenter for the Starbase C3 world within SL. Over the last year weve slowly grown a totally original sci fi mmo community within SL based on our 2d/3d website of the same for many years.
So theres original stuff to do and to sponsor in SL for companies of all sizes. And maybe Linden and those who toss dollars at vr worlds will realize this is the only economy they have that can help pay for their services or tools. The future and past of immersive 3d rt has always been community entertainment or edutainment thats created by those who make content for end viewsers- not “pundits”
, sounds alot like the Television/ cable and broadcast model ? Dont it.:)
c3
[...] reflection on this is provided here: “[…]I wonder if Linden’s mad rush to open up its servers over the coming quarters [...]
[...] rush to open up its servers over the coming quarters towards “multiple grids by 2009″ (see my previous post) is driven at all by the accompanying mad rush of developers in all corners to open source other [...]
Oooh, good stuff, Dusan! Costume balls, indeed. I don’t think that’s the issue. Second Life, or for that matter any virtual world – in the present or future – is and will be what we make of it.
Want to get real? There are already companies that will recreate your Real Self into an avatar. We use our voices. There is a section in our profiles where we can state as much information about Real Selves as we like. Universities and museums are recreating their hallowed buildings and campuses… but all this is on a very plastic level. What about virtual worlds as a tool? Distance learning, realtime global collaboration, using the grid as a blueprint for architecture and design and all sorts of platforms for progress that directly impact our Real Life.
Mostly, I believe this individual has not had even a glimmer of understanding of the psychological effect that being handed an inexpensive yet Super Powerful tool for creativity will have on global productivity.
There will always be naysayers and luddites, but I think this person’s concerns are pretty lame. For me, the real nail-bitters of moving into a 3D Internet are the CO2 consequences to the environment of all those servers, the social and anthropological consequences of people working in isolation (as social as virtual worlds are, you cannot smell a rose or shake hands), and then there’s the addiction factor… knowing when to stop… and stepping_away_from_the _computer, to run out and get some exercise and roses in your cheeks.
The next few years are going to be very interesting, aren’t they?
Holy Moly!
/me nods.
I couldn’t agree more Bettina…and just want to add that ignoring Second Life as a window for what to come also ignores its growing integration with the Web itself, and cross-over with the “real”.
Augmented reality, embedded Web objects in virtual environments (whether Croquet, or SL this spring, or Metaplace in April), and mixed reality events will just add to the soup. The metaverse is fast coming, (has arrived and is expanding) and those who want to chat in IRC about the coming plague of “costume-ball based worlds” will wake up one day to wonder why people found some things easier, more intuitive, and more engaging in the metaverse than they do on the “flat” Web.
The collaborative Web came courtesy of Wikipedia. The social Web comes courtesy of Facebook and its predecessors and followers. Open source arrived with Linux. And 3D environments will be an alternative bridge across these concepts, societies, maps, tools – call them what you will.
And it will bring with it intuitive ways to view and interact with information (reams and reams of it), powerful vehicles for self-expression (see my earlier post on the emotive avatar article in Harvard Business Review) and collaborative work environments where we can “see” a project/corporation/vision – hierarchy gone, feminine corporation arrives, the role of the craftsperson celebrated.
And, um…well, not sure where that leaves IRC.
And finally…one of the greatest challenges, I think, for the early pioneers of these spaces is to articulate that the virtual does not replace the real, and to help translate the recursiveness of virtual worlds in a way that betters us as individuals and societies and yes, that includes roses in your cheeks.
[...] of the civil liberties discussion in Second Life with Philip Linden, in which all my lengthy posts here and here on alts, tribal morality, and whether our ability to make choices is really as open as we [...]
you may pay your respects at Landmark:
Memories cemetery park — BOCH , ( 3 , 123 , 21 )
or you can search it in your second life search.
In loving memory of Dummie Beck. You will never be forgotten. You touched so many hearts in SL, and let us all realize how short life can really be. Since your passing I’ve grown to cherish every moment I get to spend with my friends in SL — you allowed us all to realize that SL is not just a video game, or a glorified chat program, but another extension of life where friendship and love flourish. You will be missed.
per you point on bringing in different target markets by integrating 3DS and Maya: Having been part of the architectural community (RL Architects in SL, Studio Wikitecture) for a number of years now, i can say without hesitation if seamless import/export functionality were incorporated, there would be a huge influx of this demographic into SL. If i was given a dime for every time someone asked me if they could import their models, I’d be able to create my own virtual world.
Agreed Ryan. The limitation of course is that as soon as true interoperability is provided, the instant the in world economy is thrown out of whack. How could the current houses, prefabs, offices, and furniture market survive if you could easily import objects created with the more advanced tools, fully textured and baked, not to mention warehouses of current objects from the poser/blender/daz3D communities flooding into SL?
The current work-arounds at least place a time premium on converting objects that already exist, or require creating objects from scratch using SL plug-ins, thus maintaining the economy.
One idea, that I’ve voiced elsewhere, is that when they open up the architecture maybe they include this interoperability which private servers/islands can toggle on and off, much as the Grid will have different client and perhaps physics versions running as well. Current land and economies would thus be protected but architects and designers would be able to set up their own areas in which to accomplish what you’re talking about, which is to tap into the more sophisticated tool sets available out of world, and thus be able to more rapidly prototype.
Other grids and platforms are taking this weakness of SL’s and turning it to their advantage – being able to import Google SketchUp, or OBJ files, etc., but their economies are being structured in an entirely different way, often not based on in world exchanges but rather full integration into the “Web” (Scenecaster being a good example of this).
None of which negates my point – bridging can become a valuable service, and Linden should facilitate a step-by-step approach which maybe isn’t true interoperability, which places a time investment on importing objects so as not to undermine the economy, and which trains groups like architects on how to maximize the platform and not solely leave it in the hands of The Arch and others.
Other grids will be set up for the purposes of architectural walk-throughs for RL clients. But they’re unlikely to offer the sophisticated scripting and economic environment of SL.
For every future project different virtual worlds will compete for revenue and attention. SL needs to do a better job explaining what it IS good for, (collaboration, exploration, research, but maybe NOT full architectural prototyping in the short term just as it’s not a game engine either) and then facilitate the ability for users to maximize those particular features and benefits.
[...] Second Life Users Have Too Much Time On Their Hands: Philip Rosedale Quote from the site – Philip Rosedale tells Der Spiegel online that “The early users of Second [...]
[...] a recent exchange on this blog, we dealt with the ‘Prokofy Neva Thumb-Sucking Test’ which I’ll [...]
Once there is real interoperability, who would want to turn it off? Would you want to make your web page such that the user couldn’t click on another link while on the page?
I see the bigger question being one of intellectual property protection. In some sense, the genie is already out of the bottle, but reputable virtual world providers will have to provide some kind of protection against blatant rip-off.
In the end, I believe interoperability is about logging into your preferred avatar provider, and then navigating through a shared, interconnected world, using that avatar. This allows different VW providers to provide different price points on the cost/value chain, similar to how e-mail servers serve different users in different ways.
Hopefully we can find some way to avoid spam, though :-/
if you have a look in the forums you will find that windlight is available to openlife grid users there is a login for it there
and i can say that there are some places ive seen there that look better then the pics you have shown here of secondlife.ill place a link to the part of the blog here.
http://www.openlifegrid.com/Forums/Messages.aspx?ThreadID=201 have fun i hope to see you round the openlife some time p.s (its best to set draw distance to 512)
ciao i hope you take another look
Jon, what is your basis for assuming that people want and need to have interoperability mean that their avatars can walk between worlds? Many people don’t have a problem keeping multiple avatars in multiple games and worlds. They like it that way, in fact.
Everything important about interoperability is about intellectual property. And because no one has a good way to protect it, that’s why interoperability isn’t needed in the burning way that you imagine.
Dusan, I realize, too, that this dream of Maya and working offline and all the rest is held by a tiny handful of geeks. But most people using SL don’t care. Eventually, if SL doesn’t supply this, some other platform like Multiverse will — and what of it? It won’t speak to the needs of the majority of users, who need creation of content not to be the property of a specialized few using complex utilities like Maya, but need it to be user-friendly and available to all on a continuum of ability.
More sophisticated tool sets are alright in their way, but if they can’t interact with the rest of the world, what good is it? A perfectly rendered Taj Mahal just sits there like a postcard.
There is nothing wrong with being a walled garden; people enjoy the protection and *the civility* of walled gardens.
[...] State University 3D Models from Still Photos » This Summary is from an article posted at Dusan Writer’s Metaverse on Sunday, February 03, 2008 [...]
Redeye -
I will take another look! In fact, I have, and intend to keep up my visits. Sorry if I implied that it wasn’t worth a visit. Reality was I loved it….it was laggy, but yes, might have been my draw distance, might have been on with too many others, and I imagine over time it can only get even better.
My comment about it being like pre-banner Mainland is the ultimate compliment!
(I wasn’t aware of Windlight, thanks for the tip!)
External programs are becoming cheaper, more accessible, and as a result are generating huge libraries of beautiful, “user-generated” content.
These programs are no longer just confined to hugely expensive platforms like Maya and 3DS. It’s not just architects who are creating buildings, it’s someone at home creating the perfect cottage, or the most stunning bicycle. Because these objects are increasingly portable between programs, and because they’re spawning amateur/”user-generated” content, then at some point users will be attracted to the idea of porting those pieces of content to virtual worlds, and in some cases already can.
It’s not the specialized few who will have the deepest long-term interest in interoperability, it’s the non-specialized many. I may not be the best builder in SL, but I have fun with it, and then I hit a wall…I want to sculpt, I’d love to properly render lights in the build, or I want to create a custom animation. What happens (or happened to me) is I cross out from SL to try to build on what I’ve learned and discover a whole other world out there of software, different ways to build, and different ways to express myself. But I can’t bring most of it back….and so, some day, I find a platform that WILL allow that and maybe I go there instead.
Yes, I do believe that the “pros” will find their own homes with true interoperability so they can throw together 3D walk-throughs of a building design in a virtual world. I also believe that this capacity should be built into SL….because they’re not the only ones who would like to see their work on other platform brought into a virtual world.
IF SL doesn’t do it, someone else will…and that someone else won’t be creating interoperability to satisfy a few architects, they’ll be doing it to tap into an ever-growing community of SketchUp, Daz3D, Poser and other artists who are doing it for the sheer joy of it – kind of like what SL has been.
I’d like to protect the garden. I’d like to make sure that if SL expands its reach into other creative communities that it doesn’t do so at the expense of the economy (in objects, time, real estate, etc).
My issue with the walled garden isn’t that the garden shouldn’t be walled, it’s that its boundaries shouldn’t remain static. The issue of interoperability is a question about whether to shift the garden’s boundaries and cultivate new soil.
I’m not sure my idea of ‘walls within walls’ works, it’s just an idea.
What I am sure of is that Second Life does not have a lock on content that’s “user friendly and available to all”. This is the very premise, for example, of Metaplace and will be the premise of platforms to follow, none of which is worrying particularly about the architects, but *are* worried about being able to tap into the widest available tool sets being used by the ‘non-professional creators’.
As Prok says:
“More sophisticated tool sets are alright in their way, but if they can’t interact with the rest of the world, what good is it? A perfectly rendered Taj Mahal just sits there like a postcard.”
Now…replace “more sophisticated tool sets” with “Second Life” and that’s the argument I’m making:
“Second Life is all right in its way, but if it can’t interact with the rest of the world, what good is it? And in Second Life, the Taj Mahal that sits there like a postcard isn’t even perfectly rendered.”
[...] bookmarks tagged collaboration IBM’s Project Bluegrass: Using 3D Space to Facil… saved by 12 others starscreams bookmarked on 02/04/08 | [...]
[...] about Second Life from…Google? February 5, 2008 — dusanwriter Linden Labs is worried that the competition may have learned from its mistakes. In the meantime, it’s by way of [...]
Prok’s comments are business as usual – same hatred towards geeks and hackers, growing on soil of own software creation impotence and feeling insecure in world where everyone and his dog can pull the carpet from under his presumably almighty all-things-shall-be-Proks-way-or-go-off. Prok, please, get a life, stop whining – you can’t stop change in software world. Just get used to it – resistance is futile, all your bases belong to us
Um, did Google actually make a streaming 3-D interactive world?
I’ve been pondering the import/export problem. I think that there may be a way to do this with LSL… I need time to toy with it, but the general idea is that a script can tell the dimensions of a prim, as well as the textures on it.
the trouble will be… (1) scripts won’t be able to be sent, (2) texture UUIDs might be considered a bypass of the inworld permissions system (see http://www.your2ndplace.com/node/889 ).
Then, (3) – converting abscissa,ordinal and azimuth plus dimensions to a format another application can read. I haven’t looked into this… I’d expect someone has a CSV format, but… with all the proprietary data formats out there, it is hard to say. Still… it could be a base for rezzing stuff on an OpenSim simulator.
The question is whether or not it is as efficient as hacking a client bot to do the same. But then we get into bypassing the de facto DRM, which can be very problematic from a legal standpoint.
Taran:
The technicalities are a bit out of my league. Er, not a bit…a lot. What you’re describing sounds a lot like what SimTools did with Maya.
http://www.simtools.jp/sltk/en/index.php
It has a plug-in for Maya which includes a little side bar with standard SL prims. You can texture them using textures from the SL library and as I understand it, if you can figure out how to work the script within Maya you can also load additional textures of your own and just code in the UUIDs. You then rez a ‘build prim’ in SL which rezzes the full build (as many prims as included, up to a full sim’s worth they say) including the textures and placements.
Now, it’s wonderful, but it’s Maya specific. I assume the other work-arounds are program specific such as a work-around I saw for importing Google SketchUps.
I wonder whether what’s needed is a bridge to Collada? Seems to me most game engines and so on have a Collada import function.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COLLADA
If you could build a bridge from SL to Collada, then you’d have a bridge from Collada to most third party applications. You’ll always run into the texture UUID issue, but I’ve been working with someone to see if there isn’t an automated way to upload textures and then collect the UUIDs.
I know with sculpts that they recommend loading your sculpts directly to the library rather than through the “upload texture” feature, so seems to me there’s a way to connect to the database outside the viewer.
Complex problem! And as I say, this isn’t my area, just sharing a few of the tools I’ve run across and little bits and pieces.
Thanks for the post Taran!
[...] posted about Bluegrass previously, including some snaps of the [...]
I believe you’re right, Dusan. And as far as Prok’s comment – well, no, they haven’t… but they have been providing services for a streaming 3-D interactive world for as long as they existed – enough so for Microsoft to try to eat Yahoo. You could argue it isn’t the same, and likely you will, but you’ll note Linden Lab implemented… Google Search. Not rocket science to connect the dots.
Good post, Dusan.
Naw, Prok is right Taran. There’s nothing to learn from a company that hasn’t launched a streaming 3-D interactive world so I retract my recommendation.
Linden doesn’t need to learn about managing large, complex, systems that require diabolically clever engineering and strategies in order to both serve the globe and millions of concurrent users and terrabytes of data yet avoid lag and crashes.
Linden has nothing to learn about how to move beyond a mentality of being a virtual world ISP from Google, which moved beyond the mentality of being a search appliance to think more creatively about what business it was in and develop business models that have upended traditional advertising.
Linden has nothing to learn about how to sandbox new features, roll them out effectively, modify them based on user feedback, kill the ones that don’t work, and yet do it in a way that doesn’t add new bugs, user adoption issues, or create instability in its main grid, er, brand.
Linden has nothing to learn about how to create a work environment that’s the envy of half the planet, that attracts some of the brightest talent, and that retains its top staff or, when it loses its top technical talent, doesn’t create a firestorm of concern or bad press.
Linden has nothing to learn about how to effectively manage expectations for future performance, whether financial or service-specific, thus earning increased value for its shareholders and users in spite of flying in the face of conventional wisdom on needing “spin” and lots of chest thumping about Windlight, er, Google docs.
Linden has nothing to learn from a company that has proven itself effective at doing community outreach, partnering, research, publishing, advocating, and communicating even when it is entering business domains where it clearly intends to upend entire industries.
Linden has nothing to learn from a company that started as a few guys and some code and grew to become a synonym with simple and effective user experiences, a verb, and a bunch of zeros.
Linden has nothing to learn from Google because Prok’s right, they haven’t built a streaming 3-D interactive world.
They’ve just transformed the real one.
[...] sat forgotten in the back room of the blog. Now I submit it to you for your approval: a link to a machinima called Noob. If you enjoy it, come on back and let me know; I got a few giggles from [...]
Well, this game was made in havok1, and will works better in havok1, in havok four however, the marbles run so much smoother, and you don’t get a random ‘bounce’ from time to time, but with the immaturity of havok4 at the moment, it has some bugs, but is still very playable, sculptis still have a spherical bounding box (Linden Labs will not have mesh for collision, because they do not wanna load the images for the sculpits server-side), but with havok4 however, I can add alot more moving things, with alot more players with less lag…
-Moy Loon
[...] innovation about far more than just making money? (Would training and rehearsal count? What about collaboration, recruitment, developer relations, [...]
Wonderful stuff Moy! We’re running some simulations using Havok4 as well…nothing half as fancy, really just toying with some scripts and seeing what the physics engine does deep down inside. And absolutely on lag – almost impossible to crash a sim but we’ve done it! hehe
wildcat days of the 1980s? lol
check out the chase /capitalone/ bank of amercia credit card interest and fee scams of “lowering rates” as they raise them that was just on the ABC nightly news tonight.
but really any of you university folks realize yet that the “made in china” VR logo is the end of your western pulpits to pundit from?
all vr activities will be the equal to watching “american idol” 3 times a week, and all governments relegated to who feeds the slop and cleans up the poop from under the “batteries” of humans plugged into the creative machine of fantasy thats basically the TV to Walmart connection of today, but all played out as pixels vs flesh..
the reality of the virtual…promoted by the ignorance of the new. encouraged by the myth of the victim
Thanks Liv for the comment….and apologies for the note format of my comments which were done live on site. So a few additional bullets to put Dave’s comments in context:
- He was making the points that a bank is solely defined as such because of the regulations that allow its existence
- Therefore, unregulated institutions in SL were never banks in the first place
- Which is unfortunate, because it would have been interesting to see whether the social setting would have ended up self-regulating.
- BECAUSE, as he pointed out, let’s face it, even the real world has proven that regulation doesn’t make a bank a necessarily honest institution, and their use of loopholes such as in the wildcat days are proof of that, recently with sub-prime, and even loopholes around checking accounts.
Finally, I won’t comment on university folks. Some of them are very interesting, passionate, and committed to finding social good from virtual worlds. There was a great deal of discussion, for example, about whether virtual environments are useful for people who are disabled, who have mental disorders, etc. Social phobias, aspergers, demonstrations of schizophrenia for the purposes of creating empathy amongst healthcare professionals were a few of the topics they touched on as far as the real life benefits of virtual worlds.
It’s also interesting that you bring up the entertainment paradigm, because the mixed reality part of the conference included attendance by the CEO of Kaneva who is creating a “light version” of what you describe – he painted a picture of virtual worlds as being constant sources of entertainment, with links to TV shows, in world games and contests. However, when he was asked “what happens when people get bored of being entertained” his response was basically “we’ll entertain them MORE”…the extension of which is the more apocalyptic version that you lay out.
One of the things that continues to strike me, as it did today with the academics, was a carelessness around definitions of the metaverse. Virtual worlds continue to be painted as “places”. And while virtual spaces can often look like places, it’s a narrow definition of persistent, simulated computer environments in which multiple people can participate. When viewed from that broader context, metaverse applications of the future will include a range of utilities, applications, communities, and tools that augment reality, mirror it, and are escaped to from it.
Very intelligent discussions around the privacy and control issues that arise, including corporate control and, as you pointed out, the unseen power of Asia and China with their massive virtual communities, may well become the leading issues around trust, identity and privacy in the years ahead. These issues apply equally to Web 2.0.
I have no idea what you mean by “encouraged by the myth of the victim” or “promoted by the ignorance of the new”…I fear my brief notes made it sound like the participants were ignorant to the peril of virtual worlds, which they clearly were not.
And to add one final point of clarification, I am not a “university folk”, I never graduated, and never will. For me, and this isn’t true for everyone, life was a sufficient academy.
hahhaha awesome.
“Regulation” of a financial firm is not what makes something a “bank.” Back in the early days of the United States there were many many unregulated institutions, especially in the “Frontier States” which called themselves and were considered banks. SL is in a state a lot like the USA was several hundred years ago. Unfortunately, SL is now becoming more and more regulated and mundane, and is becoming more and more like our real lives in most western countries. Pretty soon we’ll all need a virtual world to escape from our current virtual worlds…
[...] Tags: second life — Piri Latte @ 12:17 pm The first place I’d seen the IBM ad was at http://dusanwriter.wordpress.com/2008/02/11/ibms-making-money-ad-virtual-worlds-arriving/. Haha, cute, [...]
we dont make….
we consume….
sheep
[...] others with a vision, enable them with tools, and make them feel engaged in a… source: Learning about Second Life from…Google?, Dusan Writer’s [...]
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse [...]
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse 50,000L Bug/Insect Making Competition Quote from the site – I’m looking for bugs. Insects, spiders, creepy crawlys, little flying [...]
I love ManagedQ. It gives you such an awesome sense of the search results.
I downloaded the toolbar and have converted all my searches over to the Q. They’re definitely the future. I highly recommend everybody try them out.
Let’s hope they break up the Google monopoly.
ManagedQ is awesome. Their UI is def. addictive. Google has been the same for 8 years so I’m ready for the change. Also, the NLP/search within search feature on the left (”executive summaries”) is really helping me to get to core of my search faster. It’s worth checking out.
As I pointed out on the CIO web site I don’t get this. I see two distinct activities: simulation and virtual worlds. I understand that the technology that drives Second Life or World of Warcraft could be adopted to create virtual spaces for business interactions. What I don’t get is the point. The calling card for Second Life is that you can be whoever you want to be. Since its your “second” life I would assume most people don’t choose to be themselves. So what is the point in a business context? That I can enter a virtual world and tell my boss what I really think of him/her?
I play WOW and its great fun but I don’t see how interacting with my business associates in playland rather than realland would be an advantage.
Can you enlighten me?
Liv, we humans will always need to consume. Or do you wish to go back to having to own a piece of land and trade sheep for potatoes waiting for the next famine to happen?
And Dusan, I love your idea, and hereby I rase the paw to play one of the noobs!
(Can I be avatar one, pretty please? I don’t think I feel comfortable with to much lines!)
I love the user-friendly interface. ManagedQ has really taken search up a notch and the NLP is very sopishticated. I’m definately converting.
You’re on Vint! We’ll get the crew set and mash something together. Man the cannons! And the cameras.
I love it as well. It’s still a bit unclear from the reviews and the blog itself what the engine is that’s driving the results. I’m under the impression that it adds a layer to the Google search results…adding the interface, pictures, and ability to then further refine your search.
I tested a few searches and most of them seem to return the same (or nearly the same) search results as Google itself. Maybe it then also stores user click-throughs and ‘management’ of results and then refines future searches based on that, but my distinct impression is that it currently uses Google as the source of returning results.
Roger:
Really good question and if I had the single magic bullet answer perhaps I’d either be wealthy or watching wealthy people and wishing I had implemented my great idea.
However, I can only share a few experiences and observations from my own real life experiences using VWs:
1) Many participants in SL are not hiding behind a veil – especially in the education and business community. Therefore, participants in business collaboration or education are not hiding behind a veil of anonymity.
2) For dispersed teams, virtual worlds can offer the benefits of conference calls, Web conferences, Skype, etc. but with the added benefit of presence. I’m not just supporting SL here, but have been astounded what a difference it makes holding meetings in Qwak or SL as compared to conference calls, Web casts, etc.
You really do have a sense of being ‘present’ with others, and the tools allow you to rapidly pull up documents, presentations and other materials which others can then mark up, append, or supplement with their own materials.
3) Aside from overcoming the distance that collaboration often leads to (after all, true collaboration would say that the world is a potential partner), 3D spaces also provide a different way to contextualize, view, discuss, and change artefacts that represent concepts, projects, process, or work flow. While the technology is still in a somewhat early stages, projects like the architecture WIKI and in particular the early demos of Project Bluegrass from IBM clearly show that there is something very different about using a 3D space for certain types of activities.
Already, businesses benefit from things like contextual voting, prototyping, and team building.
Imagine a complex project where decision points can branch and time/cost/quality considerations need to be mulled over, or commented on in an asynchronous way, or by a dispersed team. This can be done in what I SOMETIMES find to be a more intuitive way in a 3D space, as compared for example to a complex 2D Gantt chart.
4) Engagement. You enjoy WOW. People enjoy games. Business is serious stuff – but why? It’s increasingly being proposed that virtual worlds and game environments could be a new model for work. For example, the National Academy of Science is working with the Institute for the Future on a “Massively Multiplayer Science” initiative called the X2 Project which will act as a platform for scientific collaboration. It is a Warcraft for science geeks, who will use a virtual world platform to stimulate opinion, form collaborations, and solve problems.
I’m not sure what industry you’re in, but virtual worlds offer one way in which ideas, people, concepts and collaborations can be encouraged outside a company’s walls. While Web 2.0 social networking concepts are driving innovations like a “Facebook for the CIA”, virtual worlds are another toolkit that helps companies to create new ways to engage.
In some ways I think you answered your own question – spaces like Second Life “could be adopted…for business”. It’s not a *could be* question. Second Life IS being used by businesses, ranging from Sun and IBM to architects in Texas to urban planners in Brooklyn to NASA. The reasons are many and like any technology should suit the business need and strategy rather than be adopted as is.
As economists and others have pointed out, the sooner we toss the idea that virtual worlds are somewhere “different” the faster we’ll come to grips with the fact that in many ways they offer an addition to real life process just like a phone does or e-mail, and perhaps over time a far more compelling one at that.
Virtual worlds as they are today are labs for a future in which the metaverse will be everywhere. Companies who want to understand the future can do so. Others who prefer to wait can do so as well, but I’d propose that its at their own risk.
For some people, Second Life is that – an escape, a place to play, an immersion experience where they can be what they want to be.
But for a growing number of users Second Life is an EXTENSION to their real lives, they are transparent with identity, and they are there because they’re working, collaborating, creating new models for sharing concepts and ideas, forging partnerships, identifying talent, or holding virtual meetings in place of real ones when time or cost are a consideration.
Some are also there because they are reaping the benefits of an intelligent creative community that has perhaps learned more about collaboration in its few short years than Wikipedia which, really, is one application for many participants, while SL represents as many applications as there are participants. And those reaping the benefits and insights today – well, I guess each one of them will have the chance to understand the potential of a technology that is fast becoming ubiquitous or hold on until later and catch up when others have forged ahead.
Look at my grandparents after all. They just got e-mail, and they’ve survived OK without it until now.
To answer your specific question directly I have been in the computer business since it was called “tabulating” > DP > EDP> IT > ???? and IBM was called “International Business Machines” (Of course if you only needed domestic business machines you could use one of the “bunch” companies)
Perhaps after 40 years of hype of the “next great thing” I find myself reticent when the media hype seems to exceed the delivered benefit. To your specific points:
Yes, a three dimensional universe can be more familiar than a two dimensional universe as long as the set up times and costs don’t eat up all of the benefit of the familiarity.
Almost everything else you cite is really not a function of the “virtual world” but rather better applied technology. A spreadsheet is better technology than a piece of paper. A spreadsheet that can be shared is a better technology than one that can not. A shared spreadsheet where the people using it are aware of if the other people in the room are paying attention is most likely a better idea than one that doesn’t have the same feedback.
To your point “4″ business is serious stuff because the outcome of the game is serious – can you afford food, housing, clothing, stuff like that.
I do find all this fascinating and will of course be doing my best to experience as much of the emerging technology as possible. But an interesting aside to the WOW environment – the relationships may start in WOW but the serious relationships (business connections, friendship, etc.) quickly are moved out into the real world.
Ah, the joy of living in interesting times.
Roger Jones
http://www.rjjconsulting.com
http://rjjconsulting.blogspot.com
I was curious about your background mainly to see if I could think up some examples of the use of 3D spaces. You might find the following article interesting, especially its reference to 3D virtual machines:
http://www.ugotrade.com/2008/01/28/the-archeology-and-future-of-software-design-meeting-grady-booch/
I think you’re right to be reticent. Work by groups like Clever Zebra and others make it increasingly easy to jump into virtual worlds without costing thousand in set-up costs and time. Learning curves continue to be an issue, to my mind, although you can get rolling in Qwak in about 20 minutes, even for users with no experience in game or 3D environments, but the range of things you can do is more limited than the far more open ended Second Life.
And you’re right! And you hit on one of my main points about 3D worlds – I really think they’re being misinterpreted as something different. Some day we won’t call them worlds anymore. Worlds imply they’re a place to go with their own rules and cultures. In many ways current 3D environments are worlds, but it’s a limiting view. The sooner people who are looking for business solutions realize that 3D environments are simply technologies, the sooner we’ll find intelligent people like yourself striving to work out technical efficiencies, smooth out the process flow, etc.
I’ve heard the term “Meshverse”. I like the term because it implies 3D spaces enmeshed with “real life”, 2D Web sites, cell phones, and meat space.
There will still be people who want to use virtual platforms for immersion. To play games. To escape. But as you’ve pointed out and as I’ve written on before, there’s a “loop” in which the virtual bleeds into the real very quickly no matter how hard you try to keep up the walls around the garden, preserve the magic circle, etc.
I don’t begrudge immersion. I’ve immersed myself. But there’s a lot to be said for starting to think of 3D spaces simply as another technology and to then start thinking about where that technology best applies for specific business purposes or for self expression. In the future, I see Wikis and project Intranets with spreadsheets, project files, and little 3D Web spaces that you can pop into and out of which are there for specific purposes – meeting rooms for presence, prototyping rooms, conceptual mapping, and consensus building are examples.
And yes, I agree business is serious stuff, it puts food on the table. But some businesses, like my own, which are in the creative industries, DO look for fun as part of our work environment, and games, exploration and play are as much a part of work as chunking numbers in Excel.
Which brings us into a new domain, that of serious games, and whether 3D environments are an extension of that (they are). I was speaking with a friend the other day who got a job in retail at a pharmacy. His training included a shelf stocking game and he described it as a) a great way to learn b) an intuitive way to understand the problems with managing shelf space restrictions and prioritizing and c) fun.
Finally, a footnote, which is that anyone who’s in business needs to be aware of the full spectrum of technologies available to help solve business problems. You can specialize in virtual worlds, perhaps, but you shouldn’t exclude awareness of other technologies. Just as you’re reticent, I think anyone in business should proceed with caution on any technology that seems to promise to cure what ails you – technology is no substitute for sound strategy. and I get just as much value out of telling clients “don’t do this, it isn’t for you’ as from encouraging risk and innovation.
hello
[...] Making Competition Update February 20, 2008 — dusanwriter The deadline looms for my bug-making competition, and the response has been [...]
I’ve posted an update and comments on IP issues here:
http://dusanwriter.wordpress.com/2008/02/20/50000l-bug-making-competition-update/
Interesting ideas about object perm’s and limitations. I was thinking about this too the other day but only got as far as wishing for second-user perm’s. I occasionally get asked if I’ll sell an item full-perms but have to decline since i know that one forgetful user can render the item virtually worthless.
It might not work for prims, but for things like scripts or anim’s it might be very useful to be able to sell them with both first and second user perm’s set. The 1st-user gets a full perms version so they can be included in their objects and then sold on. Then, as the finished item is sold to another resident, the more limited 2nd-user perms would automatically kick-in and would prevent further unlimited distribution.
It would just make automatic something thoughtful builders should already be doing, keeping the value in the builder’s object and in the original creator’s.
Same basic idea as yours but slightly more ‘builder-friendly’. In an ideal world we’d have ALL these options…
Yes, that sounds like a great approach. Simpler and serves some more immediate and wider uses. An overall rethink of the IP/perm system seems to be long overdue, IMHO.
I think I saw a script around somewhere that you could drop into objects and would kill them if the user name had changed X times – not sure if I’m imagining that?
Oh – and forget about perms in passing stuff along, I have enough trouble finding out which of the 200 prims in my build holds the one no transfer script that’s preventing me from changing the perms! Can’t they have a nested hierarchy view of objects so that I can see what’s embedded in what? Or is that hidden somewhere beneath their Dazzling interface that I haven’t found yet?
A nested hierarchical view? Very nice idea, Wiki that one immediately!
..and it reminds me of another wishlist item of mine – hierarchical linking. When you join object-A to object-B you get linkset-C. Now join linkset-C to object-D and then unlink them again and instead of stepping back to linkset-C and object-D, you get 3 unlinked objects – not helping!
I think i first used hierarchical linking in Bryce and it was most useful, it can’t be that difficult to implement surely?
Well, either stuff is easy to implement and they’re making it seem complicated, it’s hard to implement and they’re making a big deal about how it’s complicated, or it’s complicated if they implement it because the rest of us will find it too easy. Your guess is as good as mine.
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse Second Life on 3G Phones Quote from the site – On the heels of the test client on iPhones comes this beta test of Second [...]
[...] should focus on more relevant and perhaps interesting events like Second Life hitting G3 Phones, concepts of cross reality synchronization, the new viewer but I find myself drawn back to [...]
Go visit Mindies.org (Metaverse Independent Developers). There are a lot of emerging tools in terms of content pipelines between worlds, including Second Life to Multiverse pipelines. It takes everything through Collada as the middleware layer. There is a video of it in action at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TETMEkBteS0
Thanks for the post Dixie – read this on Vint’s blog I think? Really wonderful and intriguing and Collada is the way to go. Can you reverse engineer it so it goes the other way?
I am a full-time child avatar. I am and always have been emphatically against having <18 people on the main grid for reasons that need no further explanation. Before December I had a few lines in my 1st life profile citing the TOS and threatening to report underage residents I would come across. In December a two cases EXACTLY as you describe entered my purview. Now, I cannot in good conscience turn someone in for “underage”. Without a way to appeal, and with such poor (read, “zero”) review and investigation policies, and the extent of the sensitive personal documentation that must be provided to a third party to clear one’s name for this thing, the threat of wrongly punishing the innocent is simply too great. I removed this blanket statement from my profile. In the current state of affairs would never submit an AR against someone for “Underage” even if they admitted it in open chat. (I would however avoid them and ban them from my land.)
Adz:
Difficult decisions and it sounds like you’ve taken a very reasoned ethical approach. What I still don’t understand is why a way to appeal is even necessary – the person being accused of being underage wasn’t, they had age verified through Linden’s service, so in order to prove their age they now have to – what? Fax in the same information they provided through the supposedly stellar age verification system?
You do point to another issue, which is the reporting system itself, how the wrongly innocent are punished and, if wrongly punished the accuser does not face a consequence. There are no options for speedy arbitration. As more and more people are able to ascribe real economic consequences to their ability to be in SL, it strikes me as dangerous that Linden can stop access based on what could prove to be false accusations.
If that happened to me and my inability to access SL meant that I was unable to demo the grid to a potential client or couldn’t take care of in world business, I’d be seriously looking at copying my sims and moving them to another platform (and hey, that’s easier and easier to do these days).
[...] now we have Fix8, Emotiv, and no doubt many others. Posted in Business in Virtual Worlds, Virtual worlds. Tags: 3D [...]
[...] Metaverse discusses the absurdity of Linden Lab’s age verification policy in his post, Linden’s Age Verification Hypocrisy. While Writer is mostly criticizing the 3rd-party solution LL began to Beta-test in December 2007, [...]
hehe yeah i saw your main point. The hypocrisy you pointed out did cause me to giggle a bit. sorry i left the *giggle* out of my responses.
There was a similar observation made at Massively in late December. Aristotle’s age verification not good enough for LL? Thanks for refreshing the intertubes about this important issue.
-Adz
Ahhhh thanks for the link to Massively. Had missed that one, and they make the same point only more concisely. Which is my cue to giggle.
Well, I think the way they quietly dropped further implementation when it turned out the AV system did not work for most of the world (that is, outside of the US) made it amply clear that this was little more than a half baked PR / corporate butt protection exercise. As to the AR system, it reeks of incompetence, wilfulness, and sometimes misuse of power — but that is another matter entirely…
Well, nice looks will get you a lot of interest, but that is all you will get — you nailed that down in your last paragraph
. By the way, isn’t there some name for the law that says that the more « realistic » things get, the more the human mind focuses son spotting what is off ? I seem to remember having read something like that once…
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse Over-Hyped Blue Mars Still Raises Benchmark for Second Life Quote from the site – In 2008 it’s a virtual world a day, most of them for kids, but some [...]
« I really need to stop calling them worlds, because one of my main points is that 3D spaces aren’t separate places from real world applications and business, they’re simply a different, enabling, and supplementing technology to the real and the 2D ».
This might be true for applications and business, but saying this is all there is amounts to cutting out a large chunk out of the virtual space. To many of their residents they are indeed worlds ; linked and interpenetrating to the atomic (to a degree), but still worlds. I’m no business consultant, but I daresay application developers and business execs will fare better keeping that in mind than trying to see them as a kind of pervasive interactive 3D video conferencing system.
[...] 23, 2008 Commented on http://dusanwriter.wordpress.com/2008/02/20/virtual-worlds-and-business/ « Virtual Worlds and Business « Dusan Writer’s Metaverse ». I need a term for that : VW [...]
I don’t disagree with you Rheta. I think a new terminology is needed. There are virtual worlds, which I see as immersive environments with their own cultures and artefacts; there are 3D spaces, such as Qwak, which is technically a virtual world platform but is really just ‘rooms’; and then there’s what I’ll call the Meshverse, the interlinking of 3D and 2D spaces which will be the next major wave of development; oh, and finally augmented worlds – virtual world overlays of the real.
It is really nuts. I age verified as soon as I could to avoid exactly those problems of some griefing idiot AR’ing me with all the follow up trouble of such an action. LL always shoots first and asks questions later, and I was hoping to avoid that. I almost couldn’t believe when I read that their own AV system isn’t enough for them!
The only thing that makes me feel a bit more secure is, that their AV via the 3rd party didn’t work for me anyways, so I verified my age manually, sending them a copy of my ID card. With this being stored inside their OWN system I have a tiny bit of hope that I’m safe. But who knows? We are talking about LL…
The way it is handled now, underage ARs are the ultimate griefing tool.
I already posted to the blog of the affected person. Here’s a slightly modified version:
False UA reporting is a particularly nasty form of anti-kid harassment. What really galls me is that LL just takes the false UA report at face value, suspends without warning (generally right before the weekend), and then takes its jolly good time un-suspending. LL provides no info about your false accuser, and presumably, take no action against the harassers.
That this account was already age verified is really the icing on the cake.
How should LL change?
First of all, take their heads out of the sand. I understand their paranoia about RL underagers getting into SL, and places where they shouldn’t be … but LL should realize that certain nasty people are gaming LL’s paranoia. This is (in many known cases) clearly serious *harassment*, not to mention a waste of LL’s time and resources.
If LL receives an UA report, it should (1) if age verification has been completed, assume the UA report is false unless there is some compelling reason to believe otherwise; (2) as a rule, provide a notice with (say) one week to provide age verification *before* suspending; and (3) investigate people who file (say) three or more UA reports which prove to be false.
In this case, LL suspended the account without warning, then took almost a week to unfreeze it. In another case I remember, it took LL about two weeks to unfreeze the person *after* he faxed his driver’s license and stuff.
It is worth adding that where the person has an SL business (as was the case here), the griefer also causes economic loss.
p.s. Btw, the age verification system sucks. I couldn’t get it to auto-verify against my driver’s license, passport, or social security number – and I am even a U.S. citizen well over 18. I hate to think how it works (or doesn’t work) for other countries.
*grrrrr*
[...] interface systems, including Emotiv, in which user’s brain waves are read to determine the level of emotional stimulation, will [...]
[...] But it’s the interplay of the “real” with the virtual that is the richest source for the possibilities of change. If we purely think of virtual worlds as separate, we’re ignoring the fact that they are NOT walled gardens. They may have walls – platforms like World of Warcraft erect as many barriers between the game environment and external realities and economies as possible. But there are always chinks in those walls – either cracks or with entire chunks missing. Commerce will always find a way to cross over where there’s money to be made. Intellectual property will always find a way to be disseminated as widely as it needs to be, no matter how much copy protection we try to employ. But more important still, the selves that people bring to virtual spaces are not turned off when they log off. It may seem like there’s a separation between avatar and controller, but they’re part of each other, living in a strange loop. [...]
[...] realistic worlds like the coming Blue Mars, and continual improvements like Windlight and Havok, not only make these spaces more compelling, [...]
[...] of this feeds wider discussions and discoveries about the role and rights of the avatar, alts, identity, trust, and [...]
I am part of the load
Not rightly balanced
I drop off in the grass,
like the old Cave-sleepers, to browse
wherever I fall.
For hundreds of thousands of years I have been dust-grains
floating and flying in the will of the air,
often forgetting ever being
in that state, but in sleep
I migrate back. I spring loose
from the four-branched, time and space
and cross
this waiting room.
I walk into a huge pasture
I nurse the milk of millennia
Everyone does this in different ways.
Knowing that conscious decisions
and personal memory
are much too small a place to live,
every human being streams at night
into the loving nowhere, or during the day,
in some absorbing work.
Rumi, ‘We Are Three’
WOW! Dusan! I just have no words… I’m speachless.
This is an AMAZING article. Full of insights and observations that will be helpful to everybody… Thank you so very much…
Please accept my deepest respect. Regards.
P.S. As to the ending, my mother in law said once:”I have graduated from the adulthood.” hehe. I recall her words every now and then while thinking about SL and what WE, the people, are doing there.
What are the dangers to this new technology? I wonder what the level of addiction will be to this type of interface. Like regular video games and Internet-enabled computers, there have been well documented studies of addiction regarding these technologies. I think things are just going to become that much more immersive and that much more addictive.
Second Life News for February 26, 2008
From: play Sony impressed by Home Quote from the site – Of course, the Sony Director could be somewhat biased, although he draws viable comparisons with Second Life, which is apparently inferior because it needs to cater for too many system specificati…
[...] of the news pieces focuses on a demonstration of the Emotiv headset, which we’ve written about before. The piece describes a demonstration at the 2008 Game Developers Conference of a future that is [...]
I’m glad to see Jaron’s still in the picture. There’s still some juice left in that rasta boy.
I’m glad someone else writes articles as long as I do.
When people tell you they are leaving Second Life, they often don’t really leave. They lurk on forums, they read blogs, they come back on alts, and that’s all part of the cycle. Sometimes people really leave cold but then they merely go to some other game or to Facebook.
Castronova’s concept of the exodus is interesting, but unfortunately, he’s so mired in games and ludology that he can’t understand the more subtle complexities happening with open-ended worlds.
I remember a discussion about addiction on the forums once, and one geeky tekkie sort who scripted and made a living of sorts off his products sold in SL and then later consulting for companies basically sneered: “is a carpenter addicted to his hammer?”
He was trying to make it seem — trying to convince himself likely above all — that SL was merely a tool, a platform, something like me using Microsoft Word to do translation work (nobody would say “You’re addicted to Microsoft Word”).
But of course, we all know that’s silly as people really are addicted, not applying their talents in more lucrative ways, disrupting even their real lives and ceasing to care for their spouses or kids or themselves, there are piles of stories about this. I’m strangely unmoved by them, and I’m going to think some more about why, and write about it, but it has to do not only with the idea that games or worlds crack people along fault lines that they already had before they came to them, or with the idea that this sort of addiction at least doesn’t lead to road deaths from DWI, but I have to think more about it.
I think the compelling nature isn’t even so much visualization. I’ve been in worlds or on spaces in SL that have nothing particularly compelling or beautiful about them, but people will stay in them for days on end. I think what it’s more about is choice and control. They give people those two features they simply lack in real life: choice and control.
You still aren’t getting it about thumb-sucking. This isn’t a reference to children’s habits, infantalism, or uselessness about the art itself. It’s about articles that ponder things piously because pious pondered is what is needed for some reason. It’s a newspaper term, and editors will consciously plan around certain events that they “need you to do a thumb-sucker,” i.e. somebody has to write a thinky piece on what something means. The idea is that a ponderous type would be staring into the difference sort of biting his thumb.
Here’s how Slate magazine defines it, but they say it is derogative, it isn’t always:
“Thumbsucker: A usually derogatory reference to story that ponders a bit of news and doesn’t introduce any.”
http://www.slate.com/id/1003564/
(this has a good list of such slang terms btw)
I’m going to challenge your bashing of Anshe as some sort of crass mass market taste purveyor. Oh, how intellectuals must always prove that they loathe mass markets and mass culture! It’s humorous to me that you celebrate Rezzable as some antithesis, but Rezzable has more mass culture and mass taste that you could shake a stick at, what with little green martians and tropical beaches and urban-distressed canneries and all the rest. These are all hackneyed cliches.
Anshe actually puts a lot of effort into terraforming her hundreds of sims individually. You should fly around and look at them. Anshe herself personally is one of the best terraformers of SL, possibly THE best after the old Linden content team like Eric. Of course she has staff, and she has another problem: customers that wish to flatten the hell out of any sim she does produce nicely (most people can’t seem to get it through their heads that they don’t need to make a flat board to place a house, they can just place the house, then iron out the earth later.
The furniture made is actually pretty good looking. It beats by a long shot some of the “individually-crafted” mass-taste knock-offs of “modern” furniture which everyone imagines is “unique” but looks like Ikea or even Sears.
You would benefit from a thorough reading of “Bozos in Paradise,” Dusan.
Interesting points. Though Wonderland was meant FIRST for groupware and lately has educators interested. But it is a SYNCHRONOUS platform.
[...] IBM is opening a healthcare sim in Second Life whose purpose is to provide a 3D demo of how its information systems facilitate [...]
[...] Read the rest of this great post here [...]
When I was reading about google wanting to store medical records, I couldn’t help reaching for my tin-foil hat. Putting the paranoia aside, perhaps it is indeed a way to streamline an aspect of the medical industry to help improve service and reduce costs.. the old “cheaper, better, faster” mantra. As to google ads, I had just read this note that claims that google is not, at least for now, using them. (http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/29/the-goldmine-in-ads-that-arent-on-google-health)
I am also reminded of a presentation I saw a month or so ago about using cell phones as sensors… they can already track us easily, listen to the world around us, how about, the talking head suggested, the phone sense our breath or other indicators it could monitor to provide data or early warning to health care.
We could have a few pints at the pub and our phone tells us when we are reaching our limit for driving or talking to our boss, we return home and do a 3D tour of our body to check the effect drinking on an empty stomach has had on our brain…
I heard from my bro DJTom that Dunnie died.
The time Dummie died i was in hospital and i could not write this then.
I hate my bad Memory whenn i think back to Dummy.
I know i liked him and we had im sometime.
I was really in shock when Tom told me he died.
I cried a lot.
Why is this World so damn hard??
We all shall miss Dummie a lot, thats for sure.
Bye sweet Dummie, sleep well Friend, never more pain and sorrwow. I will think off you.
Danny
Oddly, the screen shot of the Google health record seemed to be deactivated, but found some shots here:
http://blogoscoped.com/archive/2007-08-14-n43.html
Yeah there might be something in it. I have linked to you from a video package I have just produced. Hope you don’t mind. I enjoyed your read.
Thanks David. For those who don’t realize the link is from your name, here it is:
http://www.viewmagazine.tv/metaverseFutureweb.php
I wonder whether I should take the thumb sucking controversy to Wikipedia and let the masses sort it out, but tracing back I still feel my initial impression of how Prok used the term is closer to the Slate definition, which is how I meant it in this context. That being said, I cede the definition to wiser minds but now appropriate it for future use of my own, just because I think it’s such a great visual.
The Dusan definition: thumb sucking is the process of looking at something and finding meaning where there isn’t any. A thumb sucker is someone who ascribes some deeper truth to “shiny prims” when there’s usually no deeper truth than they’re shiny and they spin around a lot.
Thumb suckers standing around wondering about all the meteors wiping out the dinosaurs on Rezzable and believe it’s some sort of symbol of changing eras and a commentary on the impermanence of the build when in reality they had too many prims in the way of their next project.
Second, I didn’t mean to imply that Anshe Chung produces anything less than great content, and I’m fairly sure I didn’t say anything about the work itself in my post, but I can understand that in the wider context it may have seemed like a criticism.
I have no opinion, and it’s probably an object by object thing, personal tastes, whatever – I’ve seen 10L builds by Anshe and her team (a little bashed up looking little house, if I remember) that had character, great textures, and unique features. It looked as good as many of the Tiki Huts and beach houses (including my own) crafted lovingly by hand. My point wasn’t about the output, it was about the process of production. And let’s face it, a craftsperson who never thinks about creating greater efficiencies for themselves isn’t learning, and a mass producer who never thinks about aesthetics and quality won’t last long in a demanding, changing and taste-conscious virtual world. So I really didn’t mean to sound like I was disparaging the result, I was instead pointing to the tension between traditional notions of mass produced, factory line, “one size fits all” production and the (somewhat over-hyped) prosumer movement.
And as an aside, I lived on an Anshe sim way back when and one of the reasons I moved there was because it WAS beautifully terraformed, a lot of thought had gone into the relations of parcels to each other and to the overall configuration of public and private spaces, and the SYSTEM for renting was smooth and painless.
OK, I’m off to check out progress on the new Public Works.
=)
This is a really interesting concept! Thank you for sharing.
Hey there
Nice find! I tried it with my photos – pretty cool!
[...] Curious to think about and see how people are using glow, and how they will use Web objects, to change the richness of environments. Otherwise, we all wait for Blue Mars. [...]
It’s really difficult to use Glow effectively until Linden add script commands for it, it’s very frustrating that they haven’t yet. Hopefully it’ll happen soon, it’s a great feature to have – even if a lot of people will turn it up full making their builds look like a journey into the core of the Sun! We’re not always the subtlest, SL builders…
The new web-based content is frustrating too since it’s been added as an adjunct to the existing parcel media settings – meaning it’s not much good yet, you can’t rely on it to deliver the same experience for all visitors. Plus, if your visitor doesn’t switch on Media for your land they’ll see nothing at all.
Still, fun to come, once these things get sorted out!
Agreed Eris…and Linden has promised HTML on a prim this spring, so I’ll hold them to it, at least on Beta.
And anything to do with land, parcel and media settings leaves me paranoid since the day I had an entire sim returned to me when I subdivided a small parcel not realizing the larger on would then exceed its prim allowance….not even connected to media settings, I know, but either an indication of my total ignorance or how complicated some of the features are. (A little warning box would be nice .. “Are you REALLY sure you wanna do this? Think about it). Not to mention I’m too lazy to update Quicktime so I still don’t see or hear anything.
Finally, I agree on Glow…but go check out King Rezzable for its appropriate use (at least in the forest environment, the star burst one left me flat).
dusan, this is fantastic – random art, here I come!
Kapor Enterprises, as in Mitch Kapor of Lotus 1-2-3 fame, president of the Mozilla Foundation, and a member of the board of Linden Lab (as well as one of its funding partners)?
Mmmh. How very interesting!
There was coverage of an interview with Mitch where he talked about it also reading expression and translating it through to that of your SL avatar. If only I could remember where I read it.
[...] 3D cameras that will initiate a new tipping point for virtual worlds, according to Mitch Kapor. I recently reported on this development, linking over to an employee’s blog post where he stated the [...]
This is really cool. Looking forward to see the demos. Btw is it using IR, like the Wii? Will it work as well for folks who are sitting? Does it track hand gestures for movement etc…? A few hints…will be enough
Excellent article, Dusan. Thank you!
Check today’s postt, it includes links to coverage by CNET with a bit more detail.
http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=35468158048%40N01&q=IAAPA&m=text
Look for the GestPoint photos. Kapor’s late.
Been late for a while.
[...] Read more about this topic from the author here. [...]
There’s an element of this in demo clips for some Logitech webcams, eg:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=r7Gn2TyEyHw – begins with facial attachments (eyepatch, monocle, etc), then moves into complete replacement avatars. Unfortunately, the guy doesn’t move around too much, but the facetracking can still be seen. The software manages reasonably well with tracking lips and eyebrows, too, though sometimes seems to give people something of a tic. None the less impressive for that, though!
Yes, thanks for that. There’s an interesting discussion over at Croquet about some of this as well so it seems like there’s growing work on the interface devices. Emotiv is getting a lot of play and there was another device out of Germany that worked off brain waves as well. Should be an interesting year for the, um, controllers.
3D cameras sound as a nice thing. Though “augmented reality” and some of the expectations are actually a bad and clumsy idea, nice, simple to use and affordable mocap hardware could improve the world and our communication. We’ll see how development of both hardware and the interface will go. After all, it’s all about what we want to achieve.
[...] Dusan Writer suggests that the wiki adoption patterns and strategies on Wikipatterns.com can also be applied to virtual worlds: Wiki Patterns for example, offers a toolkit for companies and communities looking to optimize the use of Wikis. But this toolkit sounds suitable as a “best practices toolkit” for Second Life. [...]
First off, thank you for the link and the mention, I’m glad you enjoyed the article!
In all of the entries that I read on the topic, I saw no evidence of cooperation between Linden and creators. In fact, I saw additional roadblocks in the form of a mailed-in DMCA and stonewalling.
While I grant that, as a company, they have many other issues to contend with, there are simple steps that they could take to make the process less painful without raising cost or providing much additional distraction.
I wouldn’t say it shows outright disdain for the creators in second life, but it certainly shows a lack of willingness to take any action, no matter how small and no matter how much it might help…
[...] Dusan Writer, quoted above, provides a compelling look at the issues involved in MMORPG living. [...]
I think i’ve boiled it down to 3 main options, now trying to decide which is (most) true…
A/ Linden don’t know what to do and have no real vision for Second Life’s future. This one seems more plausible when you learn they originally planned to make (or commission) all the content themselves. Instead they switched to user-generated content – it was a good call, it took off, it wasn’t what they’d planned, now they’re lost.
B/ Linden don’t want to do anything. Also very convincing, seems to be the company’s culture: ignore it and it’ll go away. They’re right, if they ignore the issue of content protection it WILL all go away – all the builders, designers, graphic artists, musicians, DJ’s etc. We’ll all just go away.
C/ Linden only do anything in order to protect their profitability. Very convincing! Especially when you realise how important Premium members are to growing the SL economy and then notice that their numbers are falling. Suddenly ad-farms have to go and we’re getting mainland beautification via the Public Works projects. Not a coincidence. This is probably the leverage residents need to exploit. Make Linden see what harm stolen content (or the lack of new content) does to the economy and their profitability and suddenly we might see some action…
After reading Wagner Au’s book (intriguing until he became a “virtual world consultant” and then I thought he got a little thin), I was left with a sort of impression that SL and the residents are pretty much a whacked out, nutty group of people with a few empowering stories and odd gender-bending relationships. Not to say it’s not a great read, but it has me wondering whether it isn’t in some ways representative of Linden’s attitude towards its residents. Yeah, they loved having Anshe on the cover of Business Week, but even now they’re disavowing any of the work of real world companies who tried to take a crack at Second Life over the past year only to decamp in frustration. Basically, their line has been “SL isn’t ready for that kinda prime time”.
So let’s extend this – if Rosedale really is represented accurately by Wagner, then he’s an idealist, still dreaming about SL as a sort of “Be Bop” Burning Man (I posted on this today). The common refrain is “we’ll make a great platform and gee, won’t it be awesome to see what our nutty community comes up with once we do.”
I’m all for Be Bop. I’m all for Mirrored Flourishing (they tend to love stories of welfare moms who make good or someone who make better cars than Chrysler in their basement). But Linden’s attitude seems to be “look, this is a parade, a giddy carnival of fun and passion, and we’re not going to intrude with any sort of big business, old school, capitalist mentality, although sure, we wanna stay in business, but our ethos rules man, peace out.”
So, where they stand: let’s make sure everyone can fully express themselves, and one way to do that is to open up the grid. We need to anyways because although all these other platforms don’t have our hip, cool, surfer, laid-back ethos (combined with our deep love of code, cuz God’s in there man) they’re starting to circle around our little world, and wouldn’t it be awesome if people could hold their own little Burning Man’s by having their own servers.
But if that happens, they risk all these little private islands disconnecting from the Main Grid, so they start cleaning up the mainland. The future is in letting everyone host a parade, not in shopkeeping anyways, because after all, with 10,000 jeans already on the market, the bottom will fall out anyways, which isn’t such a bad thing because it will let everyone get back to their be-boppy roots.
What’s more important is not to upset the core ethic, which is to make sure our giddy users have access to the deepest tools possible for creating fun “stuff” (P.S. the in world economy was an add-on anyways, done in dire times as a way of saving Linden Labs, so it’s not like they ever really had their heart in it). And in doing so, we’ll make sure that we keep the space open for all the educators and collaborators who are our real future anyways – schools learning new ways to spread new models of education (we can teach the world!), and businesses who upend their business models once they see the magic of be bop reality.
I’ve argued before, however, that Linden needs a good dose of re-visioning. And in so doing create a more compelling strategy than “Our job is to create technology, it’s up to the users to decide what to do with it.” They seem to think that they’re creating a platform for liberation and social change, but don’t seem to realize that they’re acting more and more like an Internet Service Provider and in the commodification of their platform are thus attracting people who care about performance, intellectual property protection, tracking, privacy, and security.
Linden’s singular focus on providing tools to users towards enabling a shared creative “Burning Life” has blinded them to the fact that they’ve actually positioned themselves as nothing more than a server farm, with a bottom-line focus on island sales (thus the new “low prim sims”), with the dreamy hope that they’re the frontier of the age of virtual worlds (I’ve read that they play parlor games at LL trying to guess whether they’re the Compuserve, Mosaic, or Netscape of their time) and that their vision is so powerful that all those old nagging worries about content theft will go away once we all wake up and see that there’s a glorious new world that awaits.
There is. And it’s called the Internet. And the competition for the attention and talent of DJs, texture artists, modelers and others has an increasing number of options.
Linden needs to re-evaluate what the future looks like because the future includes people who can work anywhere, from anywhere, in any virtual world. And yes, there will always be room for the libertarian carnival, but like Burning Man it might only come once a year because who can take a lifetime of that, and it will get torn down once its done.
[...] wrote about tribal versus territorial morality and then ran across this quote from McLuhan:“Modern man – that’s us now [...]
Hmm, and having said all that, replacing Rosedale as CEO might go a long way towards accomplishing what we’re talking about.
http://secondlife.reuters.com/stories/2008/03/14/exclusive-rosedale-to-step-down-as-linden-lab-ceo/
I can agree with the basic principle that Linden needs to do some serious re-envisioning of their product. One of the impressions that I’ve gotten as I’ve read Linden’s own sites and replies is that they don’t seem to understand what they want to be as a company or what they want SL to be as a product.
They’ve got some neat technology, many users who enjoy it and they need to find a way to make it cohesive and profitable. Not easy.
I think part of the reason people like me don’t “get” SL isn’t because we dislike virtual worlds, but because we don’t understand what the purpose of it is. One can hardly blame us when you look at the mixed messages Linden sends.
This seems to translate directly into how Linden handles these content issues. They say they take content theft issues seriously but don’t offer any meaningful solutions or even attempts at solutions. Part of it likely is the profitability issue and the fact there is no money to be made by removing infringing works. Some of it though is that they don’t know if or how this issue fits in with their future plans.
If they knew, for certain, they were going to be a company that was going to profit almost solely off of the exchange of virtual goods, they would likely do something to lock it down better. But they don’t want to invest in locks if, in a few months, the business model changes to something where content theft doesn’t matter.
You can’t invest in a future that you don’t know anything about.
I guess that’s the bottom line…
[...] been covered three times by Reuters, as well as being mentioned by Nobody Fugazi, Massively, Dusan Writer, and practically every other Second Life related blog that I subscribe to (and several that I [...]
Ironic this, it struck me a some time ago that if this was a listed company the shareholders would be on the brink of voting him off the board. I give him credit and respect for his self-realisation and for doing the right thing (IMHO).
My worry? He hires a fall-guy. He hires Torley in a suit. Someone who talks the same talk and walks the same walk and takes the daggers when nothing changes, leaving Philip wound-free and ‘visioneering’.
My hope? He hires someone with ears for the residents, eyes for the future and who is able, even enjoys, kicking some ass…at least for a little while.
This could get very interesting or very depressing.
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse Plagiarism Today Weighs in on IP Theft in Second Life Quote from the site – A good overview from a neutral outside observer on the copybot issue in [...]
The timing of this whole discussion has certainly taken on new meaning with the announcement of Philip taking on the role fo Chair of LL in order to find a replacement as CEO.
I particularly liked Samurai Pickle’s take on it.
http://samuraipickle.wordpress.com/2008/03/14/philip-rosedale-stepping-down-as-ll-ceo/
The post picks up a comment by that smiley virtual world watcher Robert Bloomfield:
“Linden Lab’s unique business vision allows them to break plenty of rules, but they can’t ignore the basic economic forces governing corporate growth and ultimately access to capital markets. The search for a successor is going to lead to some real soul-searching about two key trade-offs in Linden Lab’s strategy. First is the tradeoff between stability of the software platform and feature-heavy construction that allows creators with tremendous freedom. Second is the tradeoff between catering to individual residents who want a new world full of fantastic possibilities for their personal lives, and enterprises who see virtual worlds (but perhaps not Second Life) as the future of electronic commerce and the virtual office. Without a tremendous influx of capital that would allow them to become all things to all people, Linden Lab’s new management will need to make some big decisions on which way to turn.”
[...] happens when we try to port our old ideas and paradigms into the new space. Last time I checked, CSI New York was relegated to a few lonely and disheartened looking [...]
It is amazing how well-timed all of this is. Hopefully some of it will be taken to heart as they conduct their search…
Thank you for the shout out!
Your blog is very useful.
Please keep the great posts coming, I will keep on reading and commenting as time allows…
I’ll try to keep my blog up-to-date as well…
Thanks again.
[...] Rosedale Being Replaced as CEO: Dusan Writer [...]
And 100% of online users of MMORPGs pretend to be magic-using elves or cantina aliens flashing telekinetic death-grips, so what exactly have these bumbling bureaucrats of banality discovered? That people in alternate realities create alternate selves?
[...] transparency and trust, with the latter being considered one of the key drivers on the Net. As I previously posted, there were some insightful comments from John Clippinger, who [...]
What is this? Least-Common-Denominator World?
Gahhh they didn’t even put a decent video together. But imagine ad farms with REAL ads!
[...] Our contest follows up the successful insect competition. [...]
Cool!
No prim limits?
No prim limits. I love them too much to limit them.
Wow. That look really impressive.
thats kinda lol since you can do that in maya for ages.
the whole scene still looks static and you cant remove pre-rendered furnitures or the illusion is broken. (their shadows remain on the floors/walls.)
of course you can opt to render the building only, but then, placing not baked furns there would make them strike out of the environment.
nonetheless, these designs (like the glass stuck forever on the bar on the image above) help SL look even more dead and haunted than it actually is.
Hey anonymous-not – can you point me to an export utility from SL to Maya? As I mention in the post, you can currently build and render in Maya and import into SL but that’s not always a help to SL-only developers. So if you’re aware of an export to Maya pipeline I would LOVE to hear about it.
As far as whether you like the look or feel I suppose it will be interesting to see what people do with their imagination. I suppose people might only see a glass stuck on a bar where others see opportunities and allow their creative juices to lift off of what is clearly supposed to be a demo. I imagine multiple renders of the same scene at different times of the day, with the textures being swappable based on a detect sun parameter. Aside from a cocktail lounge I’ll place my faith in the residents of SL to explore the possibilities.
As far as ‘dead and haunted’ I’d refer you to my earlier post on the subject and in particular the following:
- In RL, how often is a social group of friends (or even strangers for that matter) available to satisfy our whim to be entertained or ’social’? Social activities don’t happen because we want them to, they take a circle of friends, a network of shared plans, an understanding of each other’s patterns and preferences. Same is true for SL.
Not sure what your experiences have been in SL, or RL for that matter, I can just share my own perspective.
Thanks Dusan!
Here is a direct link to the Join Now Page Catalog.
http://www.slnamewatch.com/botlog/last_avail_log.html
The link you have above is to the SLNameWatch.com home page.
Today I have added a couple alternative registration portals to the catalog. I believe this completes the list of available last names, unless there are other registration portals like CSI:NY or GossipGirl I don’t know about. These portals have exclusive last names. Never fear! my new feature indexes those last names too! More last names are available now than there ever have been… it is a shocking number: 1,809 , all told.
The rapid development of 3D interfaces is always a pleasure to look at. Makes me feel confident Virtual Worlds are on the right track
I like the little gaming innovation concerning the mixing of dimensions smoothly (as posted here). At the bottom of that article is another list of 3D interfacing with data, some hardware side – that really show the value of a third Dimension.
Ah yeah…saw that from our good friend Digado.
I’m sure you’ve seen it but I posted today on a grab bag of things but really really really check out the TED presentation of Photosynth….and stick around for the last minute or so where it all comes together in one organic, communally created virtual environment….it is breath taking.
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/129
Ah sorry Adz and thanks for correcting the link.
To summerize… a normal week in Second Life. hehe!
Um. Yeah. And still worth every frustrating second.
Dear Dusan,
first and foremost let me say I am sorry, truly and deeply sorry, if anything I wrote has hurt you. It was not in my intent to ever do so, though I can see how I have brought this down on me by focusing on one of your lines of thinking instead of your thinking as a whole. Will you accept my apologies ?
I don’t know if splitting hairs will mellow the blow, but I would like to stress I did not « group [you] with the augmentationists » — I picked up on some of your recent arguments to prototype two opinions one could lump in with these pseudo-camps, but only to make my point that to me, this particular debate is as irrelevant as it is silly, and that (as far as I can tell with my modest abilities) the camps do not in fact exist as they are perceived. You cannot be a citizen of Second Life without immersing yourself into it (hence the tourist analogy for those who refuse to do so), and there would be no point whatsoever in doing so if it was not augmenting our RL somehow.
You Can Be an Augmented Immersionist indeed. We all are both, however hard some of us cling to old banners and labels.
Speaking of feelings on last time : you just took you revenge, by writing the post I wish I had been able to write next. But I’m grateful you did, because you have done it so much better than I would ever been able to. Thank you.
[...] Dusan Writer has done so tonight, and he has done even better, carrying the thought much further than I would ever have been able to : But when I look at Second Life I don’t see a game, and I don’t see a role-playing environment, and I don’t see an e-commerce engine (although to some degree it is all of these) – I see the possibilities for stories. And in these possibilities I am attracted to how Second Life may be a new camp fire around which we weary hunters gather, scratching pictures in the sand with our primitive tools and telling each other of the days we’ve had, and the adventures ahead. [...]
Awww Rheta hahaha. I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to make it sound so tragic.
Call it a rhetorical flourish, I suppose, to make the point that in a world where we struggle for labels like immersion and augmentation to describe how we react to the experience of virtual worlds, we all come to realize that we struggle within the blurry lines between. Your post was an inspiration to me, Rheta, so no apologies required.
Ah well, you have no idea how relieved I am to hear as much — laugh all you want
. And did I say what an utterly amazing, brilliant post this is ? If I inspired you to this, be it only a little, I am very glad.
A lovely post (an’ thanks to Rheta for pointing at it, and for being an important part of the discussion!).
One thing that struck me while reading this is that yes SL is all about stories, and in fact storytelling may well be the killer app of SL and the other VMs worthy of the name; and that while we’re thinking that we should also think that RL is all about stories, and in fact storytelling is for many ( some / most / all?) of us the killer app for RL. We do lots of stuff just to pay tier, so to speak, but the rest of the time? We’re there sitting around the campfire…
We live on a world that is but a tiny speck in the vast universe. So small that it couldn’t even be viewed with a microscope if you were to compare the size to that in which we live.
I believe that Second Life (and others) are in their first second of life – if that. What we see today will not be what we see tomorrow. Trying to place it in a box, trying to define it, trying to make it somehow “fit” in our lives – will never work.
The reason it will never work is because it is a work in progress. What may be today will not be tomorrow. There is room for every culture, every explorer, every creation of artwork within its limitless space. Unlike our planet, where boundaries already exist, there will be no boundaries in the worlds that you are creating.
Why do we feel the need to define something? Why do we need to have “camps” of people that somehow believe they “get it” and others don’t? Is this not what has brought our “real” world into chaos?
Perhaps some things in life don’t need to be defined but rather experienced.
This world will evolve beyond our definitions. No matter how hard we try to imagine what it will become, we will fall short.
I really enjoyed this post, I wish more writings, more blogs were of this depth and literary on sl – beautiful to read, from the thinking to the texture of the words. I am going to keep a copy of this in my archive. Thank you.
I really enjoyed this post, I wish more writings, more blogs were of this depth and humanly warm on sl – beautiful to read, from the thinking to the texture of the words. I am going to keep a copy of this in my archive. Thank you.
[...] Kevin Kelly, courtesy of Dusan Writer : « In Second Life, or in chat rooms, we can chose who we want to be, our gender, our genetics, [...]
Hey Dusan, I think we have only just started to turn the rich soil in the garden of thoughts that PKD provides in his speach. As I saw what aspect that you commented upon, then was also re-skimming it and mentally holding it next to our Metaverse context, I then heard an echo of some of Laurie Anderson’s spoken lyric from a cut named “Born, Never Asked”, that says, “It was a large room, full of people. All kinds, and they had all arrived at the same building at more or less the same time. And they were all free, and they were all asking themselves the same question. What is behind that curtain?”
She may have been thinking of a different line of allegory than us finding our human-ness in virtual dimensions, but when I press it up against PKD’s one sentence definition, “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.” and then thread it to why we fragment ourselves out of meatspace to find ourselves again in a metaverse, our eternal braid may look less made up of strange loops when we hold it up to the right kind of light.
PKD also has a tangent saying, “The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words.” I think it is interesting that one one part of ourselves that is literal in SL is our text chat. The mechanism is important, i think as well, and although voice chat exists, I am sure it not simply another way of doing the same thing. The way we communicate with text provides a pace and exchange that causes us to pare down our expressions to short, concise sentences, then wait for a response, then reply… things can happen in that process that don’t happen in other kinds of communication. The first time I met a SL friend in RL, I found conversation seemed way too fast for me to assimilate and respond. I was used to the cadence and parsing of chat with this person.
Of course, this is not the aspect that PKD was talking about, he was saying that with fiction, authors are basing part of their words on truth and part as fiction, but the consumer of fiction is not given that information, so we are in a dangerous situation of “fiction mimicking truth, and truth mimicking fiction. We have a dangerous overlap, a dangerous blur.”
If any of us are seeking Truth, or to find our better expression of Being, or a better way to be Human; does our explorations of ourselves in the Metaverse help or hinder the apsects of our current other pseudo-realities?
That is interesting for in-world communication. I cannot imagine somebody using crappy SL voice for machinima, though. If you need it to sound at least decent, you have to over-dub.
Great post and great point about storytelling.
I’d like to try my luck answering Beau why do we need definitions, even when they turn into camps and even when we are aware that they cannot put the world into a box. We need them because we try to understand and depict the world we are in. We try to tell the story, and we need definitions (whether they are words, images, prims or even music) to do that. there is nothing wrong with that, as long as we are aware that they will change, just as the world changes. And world is changing not only by itself but with our storytelling and our definitions. There is a trap and danger, but if we are aware it is an adventure worth taking. It is not words that turned the world into chaos. Words made the world out of chaos. And they are transforming it in each turn. It0’s up to us if that’s going to be for good or for bad.
Well put Dandellion. Although I also take Beau’s point that we can spend so much time assessing and naming and trying to define that we forget to just experience.
Thanks for the wonderful comments.
I agree. If we stick in naming and defining without experiencing, we’re dead. Nothing is more dangerous to philosophy than trying to think without living.
@ Pais – I’ve come to believe that virtuality is no different than other realities, it just uses different tools of expression, tools which, perhaps, tap into some richer vein of storytelling and experience, particularly because it IS immersive, and therefore ‘feels real’, and because in that place which feels real the rules and “words” that we have at our disposal are different. I feel somewhat like we’re at the dawn of perspective in painting – imagine how it must have felt to become suddenly aware, through the canvas, that there was a whole range within our visual language we had been blind to, and what it was like to experience that for the first time. It caused schisms in beliefs and argument, but there is no argument that it was as if we had a blind spot that was suddenly revealed.
More to your point, however, I’m not sure it’s just the pace of chat and typing that creates a little electric change in perspective. It’s the combination of it with the visual environment. As you know, there’s nothing I hate worse than sitting and talking with someone in SL (oops, better check the branding guidelines, I meant “in virtual world of Second Life (R)”) and not facing them….it’s just text chat, but that’s combined with a visual vocabulary as well. As the range of avatar expression increases (lip synching for those with voice, 3D cameras that can detect facial expression and movement, etc) it will be interesting to see how the range of language (text plus expression plus presence plus the ability to co-create using prims, embedded HTML, etc.) the range of stories, their depth or texture, might increase as well.
I’m glad that you called it ‘pseudo-realities’ however – because I’m not convinced that there’s anything *different* about the ’strange loop’ that occurs within a virtual environment…it’s more that we don’t afford ourselves as many opportunities for it to occur. How many of us are part of a writer’s workshop? Or travel to strange places that shake our sense of location or culture or belief? Or participate in meditation retreats? All things where we, in a sense, fragment part of ourselves from our habitual meat space.
Finally, while virtual worlds are powerful environments for storytelling, your quote of Laurie, a cut that I well love, reminds me of another quote:
“Sometimes I have the feeling that we’re in one room with two opposite doors and each of us holds the handle of one door, one of us flicks an eyelash and the other is already behind his door, and now the first one has but to utter a word and immediately the second has closed his door behind him and can no longer be seen. He’s sure to open the door again for it’s a room which perhaps one cannot leave. If only the first one were not precisely like the second, if he were calm, if he would only pretend not to look at the other, if he would slowly set the room in order as though it were a room like any other; but instead he does exactly the same as the other at his door, sometimes even both are behind the doors and the beautiful room is empty.”
how the heck do you get the (R) thing to work anyways
ALT + 0174 makes ®
ALT + 0153 makes ™
(this works for in-world chat too)
Haha thanks. *Fiddles*
~wOOt~ ~LOL~
btw, Thanks for the plug, but you cover more ground then I do most days. Great stuff.
JR
http://jeanricardbroek-architect.blogspot.com/
&
http://jeanricard.tumblr.com/
Really good
[...] SampleVirtual World Addiction Joy of Rendering: 3DS, Second Life, and NeptuneLeaving Second LifeMy New Business CardsPapervision Flickr [...]
ESC is not totally throwing in the towel, no. I think that there are some situations where SL can be compelling. But yes, we think there can be compelling, immersive uses of Flash & papervision to offer virtual world experiences to a much bigger audience than has the computing requirements and fortitude for SL. I am sure there will still be marketing efforts to the SL community as mark of broader campaigns.
The dynamics are very different for community members and content creators. It is in their interests that SL provide a certain level of feature stability (don’t break my stuff!) and preserve the economy. There are not really a lot of places to go that offer such an economy — OpenSim, which lacks a permissions system, would totally remake the economy.
My perception is that Linden Lab has chosen their existing community (and opening their arms to collaboration/education experimentation) rather than risk too much pushing to be an open platform. It certainly protects their cash flow, which is understandable. But it slows down and reduces their chances of being the next big thing. But they are not out of the running. Time will tell!
IMO, most of us still have this early-adopter mentality which seems to assume that the two biggest draws, the killer app’s, of SL are first, the ability to create within it and make your own virtual place and second to mess around with the code that drives it, for fair means or foul. We’ve been driven this far by creatives and codeheads – they’ve achieved amazing things and could continue to do so but there’s something important that’s missing – the audience.
I suspect that many of the 95% of new-users who don’t stay were expecting Facebook 2 or MySpace Plus but instead found themselves dropped into Maya for Beginners. I would never want to see the creative side of SL in any way limited – just the opposite, for me it IS the biggest draw – but I think we have to recognise the mainstream user will (mostly) only come for the fun and not the work of virtual worlds.
Thanks Giff and Eris. I think I was being, um, dramatic.
Any talk of interoperability and relationships with 3d party developers (publishing some sort of forward-looking plan that developers can, well, PLAN against would be a nice start) and you end up sounding like you mean that the “walled garden” needs to come down. As I say in my profile, our focus is on vertical integration across platforms – not because different platforms need to integrate with each other, so much, but rather because when you go to create an experience you want to bring the right tools at the right time to the right person.
This might be a quick Papervision experience, a mini-game (Metaplace anyone?), a VIR-Tools environment, or an immersive sim. Within this range of experiences and then the communities around them, there is a role for a place like Second Life in facilitating game economies, avatar representation, and shared/co-created environments. Their protection of their brand, I believe, is an important part of protecting a “good housekeeping seal of approval” on the experience that they provide.
But they’d better make sure that the much protected seal of approval is sealing something of which we approve.
As you pointed out Giff, the platform doesn’t support its full promise, which is what I mean by ‘throwing in the towel’. The full experience, as initially envisioned (I imagine) by the CSI build, was meant to be mostly in-world (with Web and media outlets as the point of attraction). But SL can’t ‘bear the load’ of these kinds of concepts – full immersion, branded, cross-platform. Which is fine – SL wasn’t ready yet, as the Lindens then said (in retrospect).
So where does that leave us? Well, I won’t contribute to the stability discussion…but rather the discussion of experiences. And because Linden isn’t in the content creation business, they need to rely on others to do that part for them. And as the options increase, they need to realize that it’s Pro/Am time: if they don’t attract the right mix of pros and combine them with the vibrant community of amateur creators (many of whom are trying to BECOME pro), then they’ll lose both to other platforms.
And pros expect certain things. They don’t need source code but they need pipelines. They need to know that if they’re creating an experience that they can build it once and then place the same ‘objects’ within SL, and inside PaperVision, and maybe in a Vir-Tools demo room or an True Space gallery.
Lacking clear direction and poor developer relations, (I’m still waiting on replies to 3 e-mails through “The Grid”) they then put salt on the wounds of the “Amateur” part of the equation, sending little tremors and shocks, lacking a clear explanation of whether their crackdown on branding is an “Intel Inside” strategy, “Due Dilligence” ahead of a sale, simple house cleaning, or a well thought out desire to “brand” the future open architecture project.
As far as Maya for beginners, have a look at 3DVIA shape, sometime, for what a real Maya for beginners looks like – and frankly, in my early days of SL I would have welcomed an application like it – as user friendly as you can possibly get for a newbie to 3D modeling. They should do a deal with those guys and have an optional external building program!
So where does it leave us – they haven’t attracted the “Pros”. They’ve upset the amateurs (again). And they’re protecting a logo which has less and less value as a brand, because its associated with a lack of clarity (hey! Why just settle on one logo! Maybe if we have 3 or 4 we’ll confuse people and they’ll stop associating us with flying genitalia!), and their “fanzines” have been pretty much given 90 days to comply or … or what? They’ll shut down the people who are tirelessly advocating and promoting SL and who, ironically, don’t even work for Linden Labs.
I never believed I could have a Second Life. So maybe Fitzgerald’s adage isn’t true…”There are no second acts, but in Second Life’s case we’ll hope this isn’t true.”
Dusan,
I second the “creepy”. The tech is fine and wonderful and all that but the result is disturbing. I would rather look like an animated cartoon than an animated corpse. If this is the future then it’s shoe in the machine time for me, I am afraid to say.
Icha.
Dusan – Thank you for your kind words about 3DVIA Shape…you’ve got exactly the right idea – it’s an attempt to expand the accesibilty for creating 3D content.
Also, very intereting times in the metaverse for SL and many of the other worlds. We’re looking to expand the software and our 3D modeling community to support virtual worlds more effectively. I would love to get your thoughts on how we could help. Drop me an email when you get a chance.
(Wonders when a Linden last posted on a blog and fires up his e-mail).
Hahaha yeah….mind you, they have some pretty cute cartoon versions as well, you should check them out.
But for sure…..creeepy….and maybe at home in Blue Mars.
Well played! Sometimes you have to barrel around and reach the profound in order to find what is “as simple as that”… With this in mind, I’ve come across a website that does just that! http://www.pixellogo.com
The name issue in SL has bugged me from the time of initial registration. Forcing a name upon me as an adult violates my feelings, it should not be.
So eventually I did become increasingly unhappy with the selected family name, being reminded of it every time I logged in. I sort of became fixated on that, and it started to seriously dampen my enthusiasm whenever I was inworld, I could not fully let my personality stream into the avatar who has a name that was only semi-chosen by me.
Another thing I became increasingly anal about was the self title “senator” by the Lindens. Hum. Senators are usually voted into office, but the Lindens are effectually feudalistic lords. I think calling themselves Emperor or Duke or King would have been even more apt, since that would have been so over the top that it could have been sold as satire. But “senator” hypnotizes people into adding democratic symbols mentally when really SL is anything but a democracy. For example, I ran into a guy who had a region and a house on the beach, only to wake up next day, log in, and discover that the Lindens had piled another sim right in front, so where his oceanview used to be, was now a grassy hill. This is someone who bought that region. His only option was to adapt…
Then I discovered other Grids where I could, as it should be, decide my own name and I have been in these Grids since. It’s lonely at times, yes, but choosing my own name is worth that.
Besides, I’m just too untech to fiddle with settings until my cheap Nvidia card and Celeron CPU would generate an acceptable SL experience. It’s so hacked off and jumpy, if I want to make a left turn I end up 300 degree off track. I don’t have that problem in other Grids.
Ooops, I guess I snapped into ranting mode here.
“…the discussion of experiences…”
That’s the head of the nail. It’s not about the technical challenges LL face, those will just have to be dealt with, that’s a given. It’s actually about what people do when they get here (into SL) and i think the way forward is to adopt a more web-like model.
When you sign up for MySpace you’re not handed a book of html and a text editor to go write your own website – you’re given check-boxes to check and text-fields to fill with some details of yourself – all of which add up to your presence on MySpace.
Your equivalent presence in SL is your avatar. The first user experience in SL should be creating that avatar presence, then moving it out into the wider SL world then, at a later date if you want, you should be introduced to building and creating within SL. The point isn’t to make the 3D creation tools in SL more user-friendly (altho we need that too!) it’s to realise that many (possibly even most) people arriving in SL don’t particularly want to use them! They want a virtual world presence and the opportunity to explore, socialise and have fun within it – why aren’t we giving them that?
It struck me earlier that this concept is about to be put to a very good test – Sony’s Home on the PS3 is, rumoured at least, about to open for Public Beta in April. Their concept is very like this – a virtual presence with little or no creation tools – and it’ll be fascinating to see if it captures the imagination of PS3 users. Be very interesting to see what Sony have come up with after about 3 years development too…
Thanks for the comment N.R…..care to share which Grids you prefer? With the latest fiasco around brand use, might be time to dig a little deeper than my earlier cursory tours.
Oh, sure.
Basically I went pretty much through the grid-list on the opensimulator site, some very small standalone-single-region “grids” like “Metropolis”, or the French one (with no one but me in it at the time) and some larger ones, “large” in relation to opensimulator grids. Of course, compared to the sheer might of SL, at least in terms of busy avatars, all other grids are still very small.
There are two commercial ones, the biggest being
OpenLifeGrid ( -loginuri http://logingrid.net:8002 )
create Avatar here:
http://www.openlifegrid.com/Home/tabid/36/ctl/Register/Default.aspx?returnurl=/default.aspx
which is run by an and in Australia/n. This is a very sympathetic project and much has been done in terms of stability and functionality. Opensimulator-Grids are still a bit rough around the edges but nothing which would cause gray hair. It’s not a Windows 98 situation or anything that drastic. At the moment, it’s mostly just the pioneer builders busy being creative, but things are picking up and more and more Second Lifers are coming in to have a peek, not without derogatory remarks of course.
OpenLifeGrid only sells regions, membership is free, you can’t however hook up your standalone to their grid.
The second commercial one is called Central Grid ( -loginuri http://maingrid.centralgrid.com:8002 )
create account here:
http://members.centralgrid.com/membersignup.cfm
(avatar creation one step behind initial signup)
, these guys are Americans, and the owners of the grid are busy right now to build stuff, I’ve seen streets today and other interesting things. Don’t be scared away by the incredibly ugly, very NON-2.0 front webpage which will make you puke, and by the fact that the loginuri is hidden behind initial registration. It’s definitely worth checking out this one as well. What they offer seems to be a combination and/or of selling regions and also allowing you to hook up your standalone to their grid, but I haven’t looked deep enough into it what variation, that is mainly because I’m not a builder or region owner, I just wander around and bless unsuspecting strangers with my sweet personality.
The third one is an opensource Grid, aptly called
OSGrid ( -loginuri http://osgrid.org:8002 )
http://www.osgrid.org/
Avatar: http://www.osgrid.org/index.php?page=create
I checked it out yesterday and this is the one where I will most likely end up because here you can hook up your standalone server for no charge. (Donations are welcome, I presume, nevertheless.) I’m not sure how this one is connected directly to the sweet people of Opensimulator, there seems to be a connection but I haven’t figured out yet how and who. But I’ve already made a friend who offered me to just build stuff on his regions. Wow. I like to build houses, and I do have a newly discovered architectural talent, but being unemployed means I cannot afford to buy a region, not even in OpenLifeGrid which is considerably cheaper than SecondLife.
I do crash a lot in OSGrid, some regions run different simulators, some regions are just badly configured, but the price is right so I’m not complaining. OSGrid is more anarchistic than the others, please add the positive meaning of anarchistic here. Essentially this is hackers (again positive meaning please), freaks (..), fiddlers and aspiring techies throwing their home-brewn standalone server-regions into the grid. Very eclectic and I really hope they will work out the stability issues, which of course is more difficult inside a sack of cats.
To do justice to the small ones, please allow me to mention both Metropolis, a single region “grid” intended for speakers of German, but to be looked into by everyone, and a French Grid with some pretty interesting terraforming.
Their info you can, as the others, find lower on the Gridlist from the opensimulator project right about here:
http://opensimulator.org/wiki/OpenSim:Grids
To make gridhopping easy, I’m going to advise something I would normally not, which is to just use the same password and avatar name for all the other grids, not necessarily your SL one though. This way you can create shortcuts on your desktop and mark the “remember password” in your SL client. This way, going into a different grid becomes like going to a different webpage, all that differs is the loginuri.
Users of Linux such as myself and who are too lazy to create launchers, can basically just keep a textfile with the different loginuris and just open a console and copypaste the command for the client, with the route of which folder the client lives and the loginuri.
For the OS Grid it would look like this:
/home/lucy/slclient/./secondlife -loginuri http://osgrid.org:8002
“lucy” would be replaced by the name you are using. Your path to which folder you’ve saved the Second Life client of course may differ from mine…
Once you’ve figured out which grids you plan to visit regularly, you can then go ahead and create launchers on the desktop.
If you’re using a bizarr operating system like Microsoft Windows, you’d just copypaste your launcher for SL and change the loginuri in the new launcher.
(second sending, delete this if first did arrive)
What do you mean with “latest fiasco around brand use”, sorry, I just stumpled on your blog yesterday.
My -very- long post didn’t get published, I have a copy, let me know here if you need me to send it to you in an alternative way. (Too long perhaps?)
Hahaha.
I was also thinking the logo was Virtually Meaningless
No, it’s OK …. with all the links and so on the system thought it might be spam. Have now approved.
Thanks for a wonderful post. I’ve checked out a few of those and have also become very enamored with RealXtend. Set up my own local grid in less than 15 minutes and started fiddling around – amazing. No one there, because it was just, well, me, but I might toss it up on our servers as well and invite some friends.
I’m going to link your comment from the home page, I think it’s worth a wider audience.
As far as the branding thing…well, long story and I’m too exhausted to talk about it anymore…gave too many column inches to it already. But the easiest way to follow what happened is to read the SL blog, and the bloggers’ blog…
http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/03/24/introducing-the-second-life-brand-center/
http://secondlifebloggers.ning.com/forum/topic/show?id=2021825%3ATopic%3A5068
[...] Dusan Writer is strongly in the anti-policy camp: Linden Labs sent out a Trojan horse into the community – a spiffy (and useless) new logo, perhaps thinking bloggers, content creators, educators and businesses wouldn’t notice the fine print which many are speculating is all prelude to an IPO. [...]
[...] Dusan Writer notes a teacher using Second Life to teach class: According to Dr. Gerard Lucas, “Second Life allows us to look at issues like identity, identity building, gender, sexuality and race. It brings all these ideas to the forefront in a way that students can engag…” [...]
[...] of rules for residents and other people on the use of the company’s trademarks earlier this week. Much-lauded by numerous blogs, Linden Lab’s move highlights the company’s strong commitment to its [...]
This sounds really good. I really love the photographs. Are those photos from the Sims 3?
Hello, my name is Jukia, I am a Simmer and creator for Sims downloads that other Simmers can download and put in their game. I create things like new objects and such. So far I haven’t really moved on to the Sims 2.
This new Sims game sounds wonderful, I am just afraid whether it is going to be too big for my computer (aghem laptop). The Sims 2 game tends to skip and lag and the load time is too long. What do you think?
The Cult of the Professional, always speaking for the amateur…
Maybe you need a new client. Or, maybe a world shouldn’t be judged just by how your clients see it for a PR campaign.
Still, I was bothered by the logo and its lame artwork, but you’ve helped me to understand what it resonates:
INSULT
INSOLENT
INSULIN
INSOLVENT
The SLLU open letter to the TOS is on http://www.slleftunity.com.
To type the (suddenly essential) trademark and copyright symbols on a Mac use these keyboard shortcuts.
® – ALT-R
© – ALT-G
™ – ALT-SHIFT-2
For Windows, more here – http://tlt.psu.edu/suggestions/international/accents/codealt.html#punc (but it would be quicker to buy a Mac!)
Hope that helps.
From the perspective as an interloper looking to goof around, my attitude was I was amazed that SL worked as well as it did and took downtime and problems with a grain of salt.
Last week, I was getting little nagging surveys on login starting off with “…in your opinion, is SL getting better or worse lately? Why?…” and I didn’t answer, since I wasn’t sure if all I had was unhelpful and uninformed gripes. When I finally started formalizing my complaints, the survey nagger disappeared.
When I think about people that are trying to actually conduct business with SL, or create in-world events, or schedule meetings with friends, or otherwise actually *use* SL… then I see how infuriating downtime can be.
Sometimes one must mention the silly to be taken somewhat seriously.
Know what I mean, or mean what I know? That comment was one of many that I made to the journalist who did that interview. I had no idea she would choose to spotlight that particular comment, nor could I have predicted that you would focus on it as well. 
Thanks nonetheless for the write-up. I am also of the opinion that educational efforts in SL need more (positive) coverage. And just fyi, that particular event was theme-based (invasion of pirates), and was part of a series of free experimental language learning/teaching activities in SL. According to participant feedback, it was one of our most enjoyable and memorable language learning/teaching events.
Silly?
*Second Life offers us the ability to explore new approaches to learning and teaching. Let us not let worries about “silly” get in the way of well-intended efforts.
Let us explore the possibilities…and have fun doing so! 
Thanks for the follow-up Kip! I’m with you on silly, and on education in SL in general. Keep us posted!
Pais looks up after diving into photosynth and flying around, leans back, gets a 10K km stare, and strokes his chin…..
It looks like they are creating some derived geometries of camera and target position, but I am not sure how robust that is. They may be relying more on stitching together the photos to pull things into a topological framework.
The reason I am thinking this is I am wondering how to map things to real world coordinates. Maybe if a frame work were augmented with something like LIDAR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidar) deployed a bit like google street view (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_street_view) so that the textures from images are mapped on a real-world 3D coordinate framework, we’d have the basis for being able to really create an immersive virtual map of our spaces. A tricky bit will be to deal with the temporal nature of time, since it may be troublesome to see the same seen stitched together, with trees fully leafed in summer, the other with snow drifts.
Taking a different tack… I was looking at the artist’s studio collection in photosynth and was thinking if I could “see” stuff in Second Life like that, it might even be worth going to the various galleries and museums (or even stores). Pais gets tired of waiting for things to rez around him.
Gosh Pais I wish I were as technical as you. But it strikes me that what’s happened here is that the people taking the photos themselves are the ones tagging that the image is what they say it is. Interesting in the TED demo that he shows how one photo was actually a photo of a photo! Talk about crowd sourcing content!
While I imagine that it would be good to get accurate measures of location based on some sort of computer cross-match to geographies, I also wonder whether that doesn’t end up getting solved in the long run by the photographers themselves. Based on how they put this together, they’ve been able to create a 3D object out of different photos taken at different times and have been able to compute the exact location of each camera in reference to that object. Doesn’t it just take one of those photographers to also tag the photo with a GPS position?
So, for example, while its Google, synch Photosynth up to something like their GPI synch application:
http://code.google.com/p/gpicsync/
You bring up the intriguing idea that the photos themselves can stitch together an actual “textured build”. On that front, start to wonder whether you don’t end up with a mash-up somewhere down the road:
- For an advanced version of a “build” use something like Stanford’s 3D camera:
LSL
http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2008/march19/camera%20-031908.html
- Map the underlying skeleton of the building using something like Photosynth (which also gives you a deep source of information artefacts)
- Combine the two and import into 3DVIA, Sketch-Up, etc for some more “polished” work
- Probably script some stuff in here while we’re at it, using I’m sure
- Load it up to a Google street view type of thing.
It’s the combination of technology with user-generated inputs that’s so interesting. After all, you can spend 100 years running around with a 3D camera or creating an algorithm to assess geo-positions, or you can count on people out there taking photos anyways and let them tag it with a geosynch iPhone for example.
*head spins*
I gotta lie down I think.
oops… I meant “hippos” but used html brackets. Hmmmm… /me goes back to studying HTML 3.0
Geotagging from cell phones…
http://digitalurban.blogspot.com/2007/04/how-to-geotag-photographs-from-nokia.html
Um….might wanna try one more time.
Oh, and one more app, just cuz I’m turning this page into a little bit of a personal bookmarking thing for future reference
(Excuse the self indulgence)
http://digitalurban.blogspot.com/2007/10/google-earth-photooverlay-download-and_25.html
its very “styley” in interface and interactions… but the utility beyond “photo album” style of map- i dont see.
The sence of place is marred by the static nature of the still photography. one feels no sence of the imediate, which is part immersion.
Even after adding avatars as the mediating interface, the app, like papervision( 2d flash) limited “fully 3d ” navigation at a constant presentation level, feels more presentational than confrontational. with is a key factor for in scene immersion psychologically.
i think it’ll just end up another tech demo for the portfolio.
BTW- the whole 3D MAP- mirror world meme— way overblown. Consider it the VIDEO phone circa ATT 1970.:)
time will tell.
c3
Sure Larry – and I don’t think Photosynth is meant to be anything more than a presentation interface for photographic artefacts. At least, they’re not advertising it as such. All these tools and geotags and mapping of 3D models from photos and so on seem to be gaining traction which, when combined with 3D modeling using Sketch-Up and so on does make it seem like new types of representation of data where geo-position is important are arriving.
The work out of London for city planning and urban issues is a great practical use for this stuff, avatars or not, and is really compelling to look at if not necessarily participate in.
I’ve written elsewhere (who knows which post it was, I don’t tag very well) that my interest is NOT in augmented reality or mirror worlds. I’m far more interested in immersive environments. I’m also of the opinion that we can find clues for how these immersive environments will evolve by looking at what other tools and visual languages are evolving in related fields.
I DO think Photosynth, or at least the idea of photographic artefacts layered over 3D spaces, when combined with some of the other technologies that are evolving, does suggest that the mirror world will be far richer than a 3D version of a bunch of buildings, that it will have layers of data far different than how we think of information on “flat” Web pages, and that as these forms of visualization expand and improve and eventually add avatars that we’ll be opening up a new language for conceptualizing space and content.
My interest, however, as I say, is in extrapolating to immersive worlds, because its there that the deep sense of presence and, as you say, confrontation, not only allows us to access these deeper models for information display, but to combine those with avatar expression, identity, immersion, and emotion – and that it is THIS combination that will open the door to a paradigm shift that hopefully won’t go the way of the Video phone (which, by the way, CISCO is making every attempt to resurrect hehe).
It’s become so hard not to be cynical – “…steps to improve our copyright claim process…” sounds horribly like “you’ll be able to email DMCA reports instead of faxing them to us!” but doesn’t sound like they’re actually going to implement measures to reduce content-theft, decrease the time it takes to act on reports or actually remove any offending content (rather than just the vendors selling it).
Couple of additional questions:
Is it true that there were plans to move enforcement of the inworld permissions system from the client to the server ahead of open-sourcing the client code?
If so, why was the client open-sourced before this was implemented?
If this had been done would we still have as much content theft, assuming (perhaps incorrectly?) that it would have then been more difficult to hack around the permissions system?
What part, if any, did Cory Ondrejka play in these decisions?
What part, if any, did Philip Rosedale play in these decisions?
OK, maybe not the most compelling conspiracy theory but interesting suppositions anyway…
*sigh*
Yeah, Eris. It’s kinda sad, I find myself spending way too much time wondering what’s WRONG with them instead of what’s right, which is such a shame. Such creative people in SL, or is that inSL, and half their energies seem to go to trying to read the tea leaves of bad decisions, opaque communications, an impenetrable JIRA, poor outreach to potential and current partners (including the in world community), vague policy implementations or over-wrought ones, changes that are announced with much fanfare and then quietly dropped (age verification), etc.
Thank goodness Torley is being left alone to put out great tutorials and Sidewinder seems to be cut from the Google rather than the Linden cloth.
I’m goin to New York – maybe there’s someone down at the conference with some new cool toy to play around with, because fiddling with legal/TOS changes isn’t so much fun.
It’s possible that they may have a problem with using the TOS to ban someone over the branding issue.
If they did ban someone using the TOS and the person they banned had the where with all to sue, there is case law that has declared the TOS is a “contract of adhesion” at least as far as it concerned the arbitration clause, the same might hold true in such a case.
(Jeez, did that sentence make any sense?)
Perhaps, they have already opened that Pandora’s Box.
A Game To End All Games
Simulation games have always appealed to me, but I dream of seeing them go so much further in the ultimate gaming mash up someday. Imagine a platform similar to Second Life, or The Sims. The foundation of it is controlling your avatar/character, inhabi…
I doubt that a lawyer advised them to incorporate the IP claims into the TOS. IP claims run against the whole world. TOS claims run against parties to the contract.
One problem is the contract of adhesion issue. The other is that by using the TOS in this way they may be abandoning or abridging their intellectual property claim against he whole world in favour of a contract claim that runs only against those party to the TOS.
As lawyers, the Lindens make great software engineers. As public relations people, the Lindens make great software engineers.
I would question that they are great software engineers, based on their performance in that arena. Or at least on the performance of the product that they release on the world.
Threatening trademark transgressors with a ‘permaban’ is understandable on one level – really, what else have they got?
The most frustrating thing is that, while they waste time and effort on this trademark nonsense, user-content continues to get ripped off and resold inworld and they’ve barely even commented on that. So implicitly, protecting Linden trademarks is far more important than protecting the creative output of residents? That’s a PR gesture that only needs one middle finger…
On the positive side – totally agree about Sidewinder. At least someone within Linden understands how to manage a project AND the customer perception of that project, Sidewinder truly shines in this context. Torley is too uhm, saccharin for me, but he’s hard to dislike…
well teh video phone has been around now for a decade- as the webam… the main ” problem” solved was timeshifting — removing the issue of getting a video phonecall when in the shower…. althought the most prolific use for the one to one vid cam call has become again attached to nudity…lol
anyhow– attaching deep data to 3d has again been the goal for over a decade… X3D is 3d plus XML — specifically designed as the major extention of the earlier VRML language for this reason….
its success or failure though has been political and financial, now more than ever as the 3rd web3d bubble rages on and masses of newbies reinvent web3d wheels for fame and vc glory:)
every flash site is now a virtual world, and everything 3d is now avatars…..- this demo thankfully excluded- which is why i dont see it as a future of the metaverse interface, but only , and it seem we agree, as a single presentation interface that may or may not offer any real power vs many others that will be shown.
I think it is interesting that Nortel took a look at SL. I think their angle is more how to create a pull for their own technology and services than to make use of virtual worlds for their corporate machinations, but I could be misreading.
I don’t think that the kind of event he describes – a virtual auditorium filled with people in a lecture mode for presentation – is a great strength of SL. The talks (that were probably similar to the Nortel event) I went to last weekend in SL were not a great experience, other than the ability to ask questions (via chat). Thus, there was interactivity and immediacy as a plus, but lag/slow-rez as a minus. (for instance, none of the slides were visible until half way through because of slow-rezzing).
I do teleconferences, video teleconferences, webcasts, ‘live meeting’, and so forth constantly. I also have to travel for meetings, and regret the time, cost, and carbonfoot print of jetting to meetings. We could really use better ways to meet that don’t require travel, but I can’t say that being an avatar at a meeting will help. I was hopeful to gain insight as to how this may have been attempted in this Nortel experiment, but am not seeing it yet. Still looking…
* Pais now begins to meditate using the mantra: “use the right tool for the task” *
Interesting here in New York Pais that a few of the big “sell points” of some of the technologies is the interface with other communication channels. Looked at one platform where you are in a virtual space and can make a phone call – a little cell phone pops open, you dial the number, and it connects you from within the world by phone. Similarly, you can TAKE a call from within the world.
The other issue is that until SL includes proper document sharing and porting in of external content, like PowerPoint pages etc. a proper collaborative space is tricky. Rivers Run Red has done a little app that uses a Web work-around and HTML on a prim I believe, which also gets us a little closer.
I talked to Glen at the SL booth about HTML on a prim and this very issue of bringing in content, and while he made some nice murmurs about it, I’m under the impression that its proven to be a tougher nut to crack than they may have initially thought (and hey, there’s been a project kicking around for years now, check the JIRA or is it the WIKI). Security holes and the challenge, as Glen said, of landing in a sim and having 200 prims floating around with Web pages is a danger. He made the interesting point however that what they’re looking at is having TEXTURES load the pages.
The combination of seamless voice properly integrated with phones, a light client, and the ability to pull documents, PPT, whatever into the space starts to make it feel like what companies want – a 3D version of a Web meeting.
I’m sort of fascinated, as you know, with the “stuff” beyond that, which is acclimatizing companies to start thinking about projects, collaboration, ideas and concepts in 3D itself rather than just thinking of 3D worlds as a stand-in and slightly clunkier version than a meat space session, whether we’re saving the planet or not (and even on this topic, there’s debate of course).
So, in the short term – some improved technologies, especially integrating with voice and phone, other platforms that may do virtual meetings a lot better than SL, with SL sort of limping along patching some stuff on top, but holding on, in my opinion, to its deeper potential as a creative, conceptual space that won’t just change how we have meetings, but how we think about what we usually talk about or learn at those meetings.
[...] IBM’s “gated” SL communities Posted on April 3, 2008 by Morris Vig IBM announced that they will be hosting private sims on the SL grid, but on their servers in their server farms. Personally, I couldn’t care less. Let the business-types mingle amongst themselves, which is somewhat in line with what Dusan Writer says. [...]
I have an ad-blocker running in my web-browser so that i never have to see click-able ad’s which i’ll never click on.
So i won’t need an ad-blocker in SL? I’ll just learn to avoid all ad-embedded furniture. I’ll also learn to avoid the crowds of anonymous penniless noobs desperately clicking on sky-high piles of free furniture.
Slightly flawed plan perhaps?
Haha that’s what I said to them Eris, asking whether it isn’t just a glorified sort of camping. They claim they’ve built something in that, I suppose, limits how many clicks or something. Although really, it seems like it’s so hackable and ridiculous. Surely they’re smart enough to realize that sims will start piling up clickable junk – kind of like camping piles but in this case someone else pays!
fascinating.
your rss feed works fine.
I like the kids table too, they give you crayons so you can color on the table cloth
Not to be confused with crayon I assume, but possibly to be confused with crayon?
SLin
SLAV
SLAW
You’re kidding, right? April Fools was 3 days ago.
/me nods
But hey, it sounds so moronic and inept that it sounds feasible doesn’t it? What does that say? hehe
It honestly had me fooled.
((but Adz is pretty naive))
Great article, Dusan. The fun I had reading it made up for the frustration I shared in your description of what appears to be a dysfunctional family called “Linden”.
PS: I read your blog via RSS, no problemo.
If it makes you feel any better Pais, at least the IBM guys are fun to hang with….like little kids, cooing and gushing and sometimes burping on your shirt, holding up little rattles or teddy bears to you with this kind of wonder at their offering (and the ability to even be able to offer it).
For all the talk about Big Blue and hiding sims behind their magic wall, the people themselves are truly hobby-like in their enthusiasm, which doesn’t mean that they don’t plan to make money at it (they were quite frank about it, in fact, in a totally transparent and almost delightful way, kind of like, well, kids who get a second dessert) just that they’re a lot more peppy and invigorated than the others.
Hmm. This is turning into a post of its own I think. I always feel like people view IBM with suspicion and I’ve never understood why. “Corporate campers” I think Prok calls them. I’d better double check my analysis – maybe they’re more Stepford than I realize. In the meantime, gotta clean that drool off my shoulder and call it a conference.
Remotely monitoring conversations within Second Life is against the TOS, so perhaps there’s something that could be done with this, but my understanding is that they are going to try to find landlords or owners who will allow these signs and objects to be deployed inworld in SL.
So the first thing to do is to ban Ancient Shriner, the avatar associated with this awful scheme that is going to scrape data from people without their knowing and consent, from all appearances, and tape their conversations for “buzz words. You can do that much as a sign of protest. And also it makes sense to refrain from buying ad space or deploying the signs on your land.
Ancient Shriner is already defacing Second Life everywhere with huge, ugly ad towers with taunting textures about “land fascists” who protest against the signs, and ads for cheapy Internet sites and gadgets that aren’t even inworld businesses. He didn’t put the land to sale, so technically you can’t make the new ad policy the Lindens have “stick”. Still, since he claims he is willing to take down some of these towers or minimize them or have only one per sim (he said all three things to me but none of them are true — all the signs are still in place), he should be asked to do it.
Likely nothing less than a class action suit against these people in RL would work and that has its complications.
Interesting interpretation of what was being said. Unfortunatly one key element of the entire Slippcat program was forgotten or ignored – one that is probably an essential element of Slippcat – “Empowered Engagement” A buzzword yes, but alos a philosophical change in advertising.
WIth the Slippcat system – all control is put in the hands of the user. The user (consumer) has no obligation to click on an object. They are not being forced to stare at ugly billboards, noisy television sets or any other form of push advertising. With Slippcat the user can choose to pull information from an object – and even then they can choose what degree of information they want from an object.
As for content developers hating us – perhaps those who compete with us in making branded items without the permission of the brand owners – but the developers who are building one of a kind unique items, the ones who are creating innovative, eye catching designs that break from the norm – we not only do not compete with them but applaud them.
These virtual worlds open the door for so much creativity, so much experimentation that the best always stands out – and who knows – perhaps soon that degree of excellence may well result in real life recognition – beyond a pat on the back and a hearty well done, but into a design contract with a real life company.
Instead of using virtual worlds as a utopian hideaway, we can really draw them into everyday lives by using them as extentions of our lives – making virtual worlds as indespensable as e-mail.
Sorry but this Slippcat nonsense has made me laugh more then anything else SL-related in months, good since it was all getting a bit serious and depressing.
It won’t work. You cannot gather marketing information worth a damn from anonymous users or from users who go to extraordinary creative lengths to maintain an alternative identity for themselves. You’d be counting clicks for no reason whatsoever except that someone might pay you to count them – except they won’t, no-one with a marketing budget of any value is that dumb.
Advertising at its best can be an extraordinarily creative form of communication. This is not advertising, it’s spam dressed as furniture. Trying to justify spam with buzz-words, promises of new frontiers or any other marketing bull-doodoo is just silly. Who do you think will want that new couch which repeatedly offers to make your penis larger…unless, of course, it actually can?
Why would a big-name retailer pay you to pay users to click furniture to get paid? What are you delivering to the retailer except empty clicks? There is a model for this that just might work (it’s one i prepared earlier: http://nautilina.wordpress.com/2008/02/20/never-out-of-stock/ ), it’s called “Selling People Stuff They Want to Buy” (excuse the jargon) and it’s quite successful sometimes because apparently the end-user gives YOU money and not the other way around. I know it’s radical, a philosophical change you might say, but think about it…
A utopian hideaway? So far, that seems to be what a lot of people want – do you think everyone stands around wishing the advertising would hurry up and get here? It’s really a bit pathetic if this is all we can come up with – apply click-thru advertising to virtual worlds…sigh…
There are ways to advertise and market in virtual worlds, the Greenies build is maybe the most obvious example to date – but of course to achieve that high standard you actually need to have some original ideas and talent, the two things apparently missing from Slippcat.
A click-thru ad (or its equivalent) now referred to as “Empowered Engagement” is really very funny. If a career in virtual spam falls thru’ then maybe try stand-up comedy? Maybe we could be a double act…
Antony, I applaud your recognition of in world content developers. Your idea of finally somehow making that bridge between the virtual and the real (with a virtual couch being the first step in hitting the highway to IKEA) is intriguing, if you can pull it off (but better watch out for all those slap happy utopians!)
But look, and in all fairness, I miss a lot. Ask anyone.
I’m usually the last one to understand a joke. People say stuff and I just sort of stare blankly, I have this delayed reaction thing going on.
And to top it off there was a lot of terminology at the conference that left me baffled so obviously I’m not the most trustworthy interpreter of what was said. (Can you forward some definitions for me please for: monetizing the space, measuring engagement, and intentional transparency?)
So help me out here, because I wonder how my “interesting interpretation” (very kind of you to find it interesting) missed a key element, or which elements I’m reading into all of this that are erroneous?
You say that I missed “Empowered Engagement”. By which you say it’s a revolution in advertising – push, not pull. Consumer choice! Levels of engagement, based on their own desires and needs and preferences.
So just fill me in a little more on that part first. Because how is that MORE choice than, say a banner ad? And if I’m watching TV (I have a remote, so it’s not so hard to choose to engage and disengage with that really either), and one of those ads comes on advertising Chia Pets don’t I have a choice to call it? Or to visit their Web site and order it?
Oh, or say I’m walking down the street, and I pass a store, and there’s a display in the window about a sale but it doesn’t give a lot of detail, just says “Sale”, don’t I have a choice whether to walk into the store to find out more? And once I’m in the store don’t I have a choice to buy?
And P.S. – if you’ve ever seen a line-up outside of A&F then you’ll know that there’s something very, um, engaging to the people who shop there, so you can’t claim that it’s lacking that.
Just fill in the blanks for me, because at each step in any of those chains – banner ad, 1-800 number, retail store – I have the choice as a consumer to more deeply engage with the brand experience. In what way does Slippcat differ from that again?
So then that second thing. If this is all pull and no push, is information EVER gathered on consumers/avatars without their choice or explicit permission? Do you use the avatar “look at” coordinates to track eyeballs on a sign for example? Do you gather any “buzz words” from the public chat on what was said in the vicinity of a sign or item? Do you ever link back to a user ID number? Do users who have been tracked get flagged that they’ve been tracked? Is there an opt-in/opt-out process for collecting this data? Do you share this data on request with anyone from whom it has been collected?
Because if there’s data being collected, even without it being connected to an avatar’s name, then there’s *some* stuff that’s *NOT* pull isn’t there? You’re collecting stuff from people and it’s not because they are ‘empowered and engaged’ it’s because they’re standing NEAR something.
And if they happen to be cuddling on their couch at home and mention a few buzz words in the vicinity, well…I suppose those buzz words might be engaging to some people, and others kind of like being looked at and listened to, but others maybe not so much.
It’s sort of interesting timing, because there was an editorial in the New York Times today about how Web companies are keeping a lot more data than they let on. I’m sure you read it, but a few little clips:
“(Technology companies) are spying on you. …(They’re) record(ing) the sites you visit, the ads you click on, even the words you enter into search engines – information that some hold onto forever. They’re not telling you they’re doing it, and they’re not asking permission. …
The driving force behind this prying is commerce. The big growth area in online advertising right now is “behavioral targeting’.
The Federal Trade Commission has proposed self-regulatory guidelines for companies that do behavioral targeting…The founders wrote the Fourth Amendment – guaranteeing protection against illegal search and seizure – at a time when most were concerned about protecting the privacy of their homes and bodies…(and) have been extended to cover telephone communications. Now work has to be done to give Internet activities the same level of privacy protection.”
And finally, I’m going to leave it to others to comment on how we should stop using virtual worlds as a utopian hideaway. I’ve been mistaken for an augmentationist so I don’t have a lot of street cred in that respect (although I beg to differ and feel I immerse with the best of them).
But I will say that virtual worlds do offer us a form of utopia, because they allow us to imagine different futures, and to explore the possibilities of living, thinking, working and playing within different conceptual models, including the one where advertisers aren’t measuring every click and move, and my furniture doesn’t hand out Lindens like coins stuck between the cushions to every friend who pops by for tea.
@ Eris – geez thanks…now I have to get an MBA to understand this new “Selling People Stuff They Want to Buy” idea (which book was that in? I suspect Tom Peters but maybe it hasn’t hit the shelves yet??)
Haven’t you HEARD Eris? The future is free! Says so in Wired! The inventors of the Long Tail! (I have only BEGUN to debunk!
Anyways, I trust the MTV lady, who made the very valid point that we’re suckers for buying stuff because it helps to make us feel SPECIAL. And we all wanna feel special. And I don’t want to feel like I have to hide the furniture or plead with friends not to click it in order to cover for the fact that my pad is decked out with freebies that spit out payola.
I really wish that line worked though:
“Hey, come over to my place and experience the FUTURE of advertising. Yeah! Just click on my couch, and you’re glimpsing the next Google, baby.”
Somehow I see a lot of eye-rolling going on in addition to comments like “Oh, you finally got that thing to WORK did you” or “It’s not one of those Xcite compatible deals is it?”
(Um, not me, I mean people LIKE me would have friends like that).
OK, I’m off to come up with the NEW NEW future of advertising. I’ve been mulling around this idea about how you could get a LOT of attention if you interrupted events, like the Super Bowl, say, with branded messages. Forget push and pull, how about trap and slap! Just need a virtual world application – what about commercially sponsored SexGen beds that bleat out a little jingle at critical moments?
Oh Dusan… I came over at your call to read this, and now all I want to do is get into a really hot shower, scrub myself until I’m raw, find a way to scrub my brain until all memories of this… Slippcat… are gone, curl up under my duvet and never, ever wake up again to face a world containing people like that. This is beyond frightening an disgusting both.
Jeez…
That is simply appalling… A free-market ‘1984′?… and thanks for reinforcing why I am so uncomfortable about teen worlds and big business.
Sorry… must go and puke now.
Well, I have mixed feelings here.
I know I’m being tracked down and measured every time I pay my shopping in a supermarket. They analyse the things I buy, they know my patterns, they send me coupon codes for discounts on “just the products” I buy more often. I know this goes on all the time.
I also know that Google scans my Gmail account every day. Besides eliminating spam (for which I’m thankful!), they create a profile for me, and now target ads better, about things I’m potentially interested in. I even give them permission to do so — I’m usually logged in on Google Accounts when googling in, well, Google. So I know that the list of links I get as results is different from yours. Our tastes differ, and I get “targetted marketing” for it. For Google, I’m just an account — an email address — but they can tell their advertisers what exactly I like to see on the Internet.
The same happens with eBay and Amazon. They know what I like, what I search, and dynamically profile me, and present me the things I usually buy online.
I also know that Twitter has just one purpose — getting better tracking data. They have no other business model. They don’t sell ads (most people use Twitter-compatible thingies to tweet, and never bother to look at the site anyway, so ads are pretty worthless on their site anyway). They don’t sell “upgrade packages” (”now increase the number of characters you can tweet to your friends to 750 per message!”). No — all they do is scan what I type, link it to my email address, and sell the profile to online advertisers.
This goes on with practically everything I do on the Internet, and has been going on for quite some time. Sure, they might not know my real name and my real address — but they know, every time I log in “somewhere” on the Internet, what my tastes are. I’m tracked and profiled. I’m part of several marketing databases. I get targetted spamming. I can’t avoid it — unless, of course, I delete all my accounts and start from scratch (and even so, I’d be quickly tracked again).
Except on Second Life.
Now, well, the market opportunity is just too great to avoid. Sure, you can’t know what information an “avatar name” cointains — Linden Lab protects your real name. But — really?
All you need it to have sensors sending media parcel URLs to your avatar — that are no media parcel URLs at all, but links to external web servers which can easily check on your IP address. Combine that to a different database where you are, say, logged in with your Google Account or Yahoo ID, and it’s quite likely marketeers will be able to find a match. Run this for a while, and you, as a marketeer, will be pretty good at finding out avatar’s IP addresses (which will give you an approximate location) and their email addresses (from anywhere on eBay, Amazon, Google, or Yahoo).
So if I start buying a lot of shoes in SL, I might suddenly find out that Amazon starts displaying fashion books on the top of my searches, and DVDs like “The Devil Wears Prada”. eBay will automatically send me updates for shoes found for sale there. Yahoo and Google will suddenly display ads for Dolce & Gabbanna shoes. I might not relate the two things for a while, but… isn’t it something that marketeers would just love to have?
The technology is there. I don’t think we’re going to be able to avoid that — specially in Second Life, where it is so easy to do integration with external servers — like we can’t avoid to be tracked every time we visit a search engine or an online shopping guide. I wouldn’t call that “stupid” or “ridiculous” or “silly” or a “waste of money”. Marketeers know that their profiling data is not 100% accurate: I might one day search for virtual worlds, the next day on the current fashion in eye shadow colours, then the latest news from Apple, and finally do a random search for a Bible quote. What will the profiler be able to get out of this data? Will they present me ads for nice, discreet Macs in my favourite colour, that can be personally engraved with messages like “God Is Love”? Very likely, not. Tracking doesn’t work like that, and you require a bit more profile data to get a more accurate picture. Even if I’m no way near to look like a 20-something years old redhead in RL — and 99% of what I might buy in SL will never affect my decisions of what I can buy in RL — that is not an issue. Tracking software can still get some preferences out of my SL experience. They might be able to pick out my favourite colours. They might be able to figure out that I’m a “quick shopper” — spending more time looking at clothes than actually wearing them. They might see that I’m keen on following advice from fashion blogs — ie. I might be logged on WordPress, watch a fashionista blog, and then immediately go in-world, every time my favourite fashion advisor in SL puts up a picture of something in purple or beige. It doesn’t mean that I’m likely to buy mini-skirts in SL. But it can help marketing profilers to understand that I tend to buy beige or purple things.
So… do I like the idea that I’m being constantly tracked? Certainly not. Can I do anything about it? Probably not — we’ve lost that war on the Web, we will lose it on virtual worlds as well. Does it seriously hurt my privacy? Well, it’s a difficult question to answer. If it’s opt-in, it’s ok; if it provides at least an opt-out feature, it’s acceptable. If I can’t avoid it (the most likely case), it’s different — but I might not be able to do anything about it.
As to the virtual worlds suddenly targetting kids and teens… well… I have my thoughts about it. Teens are a market since they have money to spend and are easily persuaded/convinced (curiously enough, in my country, recently legislation was passed to limit certain ads specifically targeted to children, since they cannot understand the difference between “truth” an an “ad”). However, I always wondered why marketeers are so keen on the teen market — their money, even if easily spent, is limited by their parents’ budget. On the other hand, the 40+ market is so much more interesting: most people will have a stable life and enough money to spend — far more than the average teenager. They are, however, much more careful buyers. Interestingly enough, the small game developers (the ones selling millions of games with a low budget, but highly addictive, and charging US$10-20 with an easy download) are curiously aggressively targeting the female gamers, who have been seriously neglected by the first person shooters and other action-destruction games out there. Strange that this market goes unexplored in virtual worlds — when in Second Life it’s clear that the content for female avatars still surpasses what’s available for the male ones, both in quantity, quality, and even cost. Well, that’s what you get on a sales-driven economy — content designers in SL create what is sellable, not what marketeers think will sell!
My surprise is not that so many different “virtual worlds for kids” are popping up. They know that teenagers have very short attention spans, and will hop crazily across all these new options — while they get bored with SL after a few minutes (see how small the Teen Grid is, when compared to the Adult Grid). Whereas Second Life tends to have much older people around — who stay around for years, and are constantly consuming content and very well willing to pay for it.
I still find it ironic, Gwyn, that the New York Time chimed in on this issue today, giving some intriguing examples of how all this tracking ALSO plays out, in addition to the D&G shoe ads:
“The information, however, gets…a lot more sensitive. Tech companies can keep track of when a particular Internet user looks up Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, adult Web sites, buys cancer drugs online or participates in anti-government discussion groups.
Serving up ads based on behavioral targeting can itself be an invasion of privacy, especially when the information used is personal. (”Hmm…I wonder why I always get those drug-rehab ads when I surf the Internet on Jane’s laptop?”)
There is..no guarantee that the information will stay with the company that collected it. It can be sold to employers or insurance companies, which have financial motives for wanting to know if their workers and policyholders are alcoholics or have AIDS. It could also end up with the government, which needs only to serve a subpoena to get it).”
Now, in Second Life we have the veil of anonymity. HOWEVER, Van Zyl is imploring us:
“Instead of using virtual worlds as a utopian hideaway, we can really draw them into everyday lives by using them as extentions of our lives – making virtual worlds as indespensable as e-mail.”
So, here’s the thing…first time you click that couch, and then decide to go to that Web site where more information about the couch is available, well…you’re now part of the big old Internet data stream, and suddenly all your in-world purchases and clicks can theoretically be connected to your very real world identity.
The FTC is calling for self regulation. That’s fine. But its also been suggested that a “do-not-track” list be established for those who prefer to opt out. Clear standards for opting in. Guidance as to what information is collected, what the rules should be about selling it and sharing it, and what the rights of the person being tracked are in the same regard.
I’m all for metrics. Companies have a right to measure the success of their spend. But I also want the right to opt out, to know when I’m in a space where I AM being measured (much as you KNOW when you’re using Google), and have access to clear privacy and data collection policies of the companies doing the collecting.
As for the content developers, I hope they all take heart in his hope that the excellent product they create “may well result in real life recognition – beyond a pat on the back and a hearty well done, but into a design contract with a real life company”.
Finally, I don’t mean to imply, if I did, that any of what Slippcat is doing is a waste of money for the advertisers. It’s a nice little business model. I think if they take a great deal of care in the coming months to reach out to the content creators they might even get some product more deeply placed into the market than just a bunch of banners and kiosks and freebies, and even if they don’t it will take a very long time before anyone cares that they’re being measured except for a small circle of people who think too much, or get confused too easily (like me), and who, now that you mention it, really really needs a new pair of shoes.
Dusan, I definitely agree with you that I’m not too keen on having anyone to know when I click, for instance, by mistake, on an ad that leads to a porn website, an online casino, one that sells illegal drugs, or a paedophilia data haven — and suddenly having all bells ringing on some police station near my home. I think there have to be limits somewhere to our privacy, but I’m rather pessimistic — privacy is becoming one of the more elusive things to have these days. One day our only “opt-out” option will be to turn the computer off and disconnect it from the ‘net if we wish to make sure that nobody is doing all sorts of silly correlations with the random browsing on the Web.
At some stage we could still claim that nobody could do those correlations fast enough, with the terabytes and terabytes of data out there. Now Google stores 6 billion websites — in memory! — and can locate millions of links in less than a fifth of a second.
This is scary.
/me nods sadly.
There’s one thing Slippcat and the other meta-scavengers seems to be missing in all their plans to “monetize the space”. We, the residents, have the same build tools they do – and in some less-reputable cases, better tools. If they introduce spam-furniture or some other unwelcome marketing device then how long before some copybot-wielding resident strips that functionality out of the object and makes it available everywhere in neutered form? My guess would be about 20 minutes and altho i’d condemn any other content theft within SL i think i’d be cheering that one on – hypocritical i know!
I’m not against advertising or marketing within SL, just make it good advertising. I think it’s like the difference between the junk mail that lands on your doormat and the IKEA (or any other furniture retailer’s) catalogue you picked up in-store. They’re both advertising but one is welcome, giving you information you want, while the other is unsolicited, probably badly targeted and wasteful of resources. If advertisers and marketeers can provide compelling and engaging advertising within virtual worlds then great, but virtual equivalents of junk mail or will fail every time.
This nonsense just won’t work in SL – altho it might in other virtual worlds, particularly (sadly) the ones populated by kids. Maybe one of the most unique things about SL is the fact that its population is so uniquely armed to defend itself from these kind of (potentially unwelcome) incursions?
“it seems like it’s so hackable”
Perhaps we can expect a continual parade of Clickbots collecting their limit of lindens then instantly coming back with a new identity. The humans may get squeezed completely off the grid.
And the Lab will have huge numbers of new signups to point to – “More than eight billion new accounts in the last 90 days!”
[...] April 7, 2008 in Games Based Learning, Learning, Play, Virtual WorldsTags: Barbie Girls, Handipoints (Handipointa found Via Dusan Writer) [...]
BoingBoing has a little behind-the-scenes video
http://www.boingboing.net/2008/04/02/bbtv-second-skin-and.html
And as a follow-up comment, I’m stuck with a whack of sims at the old price. It’s a major chunk of change, sure. And I understand why people might feel like they’ve had the wind knocked out of their sails. I suppose I feel lucky, was about to order 4 more, so I seemed to have timed my hesitation OK. Unfortunately for some, real estate in SL isn’t so much as an investment as space upon which to develop assets and services. I haven’t thought through the economics of SL deeply enough to know whether this is a bad thing, just have the feeling it’s an inevitable one.
We need to organize some virtual civil disobedience, form a players’ union.
I should call myself lucky because all land but 6144sqm on my SIMs is sold – the decrease in SIM value doesn’t hit me but parcel owners. I already got my initial investment back – and now really praise myself that from start on I gave buyers a much lower monthly cost to pay than renters, encouraging them to buy and not rent.
It all points to OpenCroquet. This is a open source virtual world api and engine, which can run incorporate external content, and operate point-to-point or client-server. I don’t understand why it is not catching on faster than it seems to be. http://opencroquet.org/index.php/Main_Page
What a GREAT article… you really captured my feelings of the last 4 months in a way I’ve been looking to word them, but I guess I won’t need to now
Yes the ‘metaverse’ is still being developed, no its not ready for mainstream, yes a lot of empty promises are being made, no it won’t be ready tomorrow, yes it will take time to find application to create a valuable contribution to everyday life by individual projects, no there is nothing wrong with the commerce taking place – just don’t conclude a failure of the platform because they fail to address their audiences, yes its time to look further then just Second Life, no you won’t create critical mass just because you tell ‘the masses’ to rush in.
Croquet rocks. There’s so much heart and effort going into it, the tutorials being put up are wonderful, it’s a really shining community of developers. And the architecture is genius. Unfortunately, and I think it’s recognized by the developers themselves, its coming across as by academics for academics, other than the work of Qwak which does the stuff you say but doesn’t have avatar expression. It DOES have integration of external elements…HTML, documents, PPT, video, worlds within worlds, etc. But somehow the resistance point by the developers to figure out whether/how/if it should be montetized at all might be hampering buy-in by the larger corporations (for now, anyways).
If Qwak was joined by another, sort of a Red Hat Linux kind of thing and if the development community could come up with a plan to attract more talent, I think Croquet has legs…it’s brilliant. Especially for things like 3D visualization, and more advanced applications, and now with Blender being patched in there’s some very cool stuff happening. (Can someone explain how Cobalt fits in though? And I mean that as a total newbie question).
Plus, Croquet is scaleable, and the P2P thing is genius.
Great platform. And advocacy towards academia, which is fine, because companies will catch on sooner or later. Rumour is that Cisco might buy out Qwak, maybe that will give it the boost it needs.
This is an interesting one, been back and forth over it. Ultimately more people owning more land in SL has to be a good thing, so from that viewpoint it’s great.
I have to welcome it from a selfish standpoint too, i’ve been dithering about buying my first island for 2 years – i think this just swayed the decision slightly! Life Lesson: be more patient, sometimes it pays.
On the downside, I can’t escape the feeling Linden just did to land-dealers what they do to ripped-off content-creators every other day. Still, maybe it’s all to the common good?
I think a more significant announcement and one that goes hand in hand with the price drop is the change with regard to openspace sims. Get 4 times the land area now 512x 512 meters & the same number of prims, 15000 for the same dollar as an old small sim. Why would you want to be on a crowded Mainland sim and have to rez all that shit. By distributing content over 4 times the area, you get less lag.
@jeanricard: It will be interesting to see if they change the price for the open space SIMs too. They just made them a fair deal a few weeks ago, if they want them to stay a fair deal, they have to lower them to 250 USD too. I’m really waiting for the next blog post about that, Jack announced one for maybe even today.
@jeanricard…As I understand it, when you buy an Open Space sim, the processor that it is tied to may not be on the same server as your other sims. Meaning that you may get unlucky enough to have one sim linked with 3 others that have a bunch of laggy scripts and drags the processor speed (and your sim) down with it.
Personally, I think when you buy land in SL to rent out or flip, then you are speculating. And there are risks so you should be prepared for them. Anyone who goes into speculative activities without the thought that they may lose their shirts is extremely naive.
I have a feeling, although I’m not sure (too lazy to look it up, it’s gray and rainy and it leaves me thoughtful but unproductive) that if you buy 4 Open Space sims they put them on the same server.
But one of the things I’m curious about is if the sims are spread across 4 “regions” does each region support 40 avatars? Or does it support 10/region. (Or whatever the number is, can’t remember the max per region, and I realize it adjusts for other things).
If each Open Space region supports 40, it would mean that one server could support 160 users and 15,000 prims. If an Open Space region only support 1/4 of the user limit, is 10 sufficient, or does the entire server itself support 40? In which case, if you’re sharing an Open Space region with someone else on the same server, what if they reach the 40 limit? Are you left locked out of your empty Open Space region because it’s “full”?
Daniel – maybe you can clarify, I think you know more about this than some of us!
I think it’s kinda freaking that pple want rely they RL life income based on a GAME. SL is a game after all!
I’m still astonished when pple take SL business that seriously. How pple can pretend to “invest” Real money in a world that could be switch off in less than a minut ( sudo init 0) ?
Investment means Cash and Benefits. Do you know any REAL market that could only bring benefits ? Their is always a looser for a winner…
I’m not a landlord, just a brat that have fun with few sims I owns. I knew it will be a loss the minut I order them and I don’t intend to make any profit renting them too. For my daily living I got a Real Job !
Linden made a good move with the cost reduction. The ticket will lure pple to buy new sims that will give LL more montly revenue !
Go Linden Go !
Cunning ^^
Da FoxBoy
I have very mixed feelings about both the price reduction and the clarification with that small “peace offering” to those who bought within the last few days.
For fun and self users the price drop is great. For land business it might be a killer, especially reading some comments like “How cool, I now will buy a SIM/a pack of SIMs and start a land business.” – they only see the purchase price and not the monthly costs that are the real killer. Land business isn’t an automatic gold mine. I see lots of new estate land showing up – but where are all the new folks who have to rent/buy on those new SIMs to cover the monthly costs for the estate owner? In german we have a saying “zuviele Häuptlinge – zuwenig Indianer —- too many chiefs, too little indians”. Competition, that already is hard in the land business, will get worse. Some will even offer below cost rents/tiers to keep the monthly loss by empty land as low as possible. Within a couple of months quite a few of the over optimistic new landlords will realize that it doesn’t work out, they will give up, might even abandon their SIMs just to not having to pay next months 295 USD. This will not only be bad for them, but for their parcel renters/owners too, who will be left with nothing when LL reclaims the SIMs.
There is quite a bit of gloating about the bad big real estate companies who sell/rent out estate land. Well, folks, with competition going up and rents/tiers going down: will they still be able to offer great public freebies for their renters/parcel owners, like free parks, landscaping and so on? When they have to lower their rents/tiers, they might have to take away those benefits and just sell/rent out 100 percent of their land to make months end.
Now to the peace offering to recent buyers. I’m especially upset about the more or less non-existing offer for those who bought open space SIMs after the recent policy change in march. LL dragged hundreds of people into buying them at 415 USD within a single month – and now they lower the price to 250 with offering a reparation for only a fraction of them who bought within the last few days. Yes, concierge says “you can give them back if you gout them in the last 30 days, we won’t even take the usual 100 USD restocking fee, then you can buy again at the lower price” – but honestly: I put so many hours of work into my private new one, I would be nuts to give it up and do all the work again to get 165 USD back. LL hopes that many think that way and just swallow the pill. There would be such an easy solution: just give all those, who bought after the policy change (and often only BECAUSE of that policy change) another 2 months with out the 75 USD monthly fee. Why this stupid chaos of “give back, get your money back, buy new”? Heck, even if they would only offer a single month without fee it would be a great sign of respect for those who put lots of real money into LL. (Especially with the performance bug for open space SIMs introduced with H4 that made them not really usuable for 10 or more days now and only will be cleaned up with the next server software update.)
Oh well. Looking back at how LL made decisions during my time here I have to say: business as usual.
Danny
“How pple can pretend to “invest” Real money in a world that could be switch off in less than a minut ( sudo init 0) ?” Yes, I wonder about this too. Why, for example, does Microsoft want to buy Yahoo? Don’t they realize it can be switched off in less than a minute? It scares me to death to put my money in the bank for the very same reason. I always ask the teller about the “less than a minute” factor and they reassure me that it isn’t in the bank’s interest to arbitrarily shut down their computers even if it were to take less than a second (pull plug from wall)! I am glad that I am not the only one who feels this way. I was starting to feel like an isolated, paranoid basement dweller.
I wonder why they’re only thinking about selling “real-life items.”
Imagine if “Billboards of Edmonton, Inc.” only let you advertise things not sold in Edmonton!
Real banks are protected by laws, at least in my country.
I remembered the “.com” phenomen when everybody should have been billionair within a day. We know how it end.
My company I work for recently bought a competitor. Most of the pple their complain their “stock options” worth nothing and wasn’t included in the deal… Actually they want to sue the new comp to claim compensation… funny…
Is it written somewhere that stock-options are real money ?
I doubt so… So is SL, a Game
Sacha who try to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Always_Look_on_the_Bright_Side_of_Life
sacha
sascha,
I was sorta just making fun rather than trying to make a substantive point. I concede that running a business in SL is much riskier than depositing your cash in a bank because SL’s invisible hand is often the mailed fist of Linden Lab. However, the “SL is just a GAME” meme gets under my skin because people use it as though it’s understood and agreed that “Just Games” have no value outside of consumerist notions of “fun”.
I don’t like to compartmentalize my psyche in the manner the “just a game” crowd thinks is the only and “healthy” way to organize our reality. However, in the interest of full disclosure, I did try to buy a candy bar with Monopoly money when I was a kid. Perhaps my confusion started then.
Icha
Hmmmm. And I would win at Monopoly by slipping a candy bar to someone in exchange for them not picking up Park Place when they had a chance.
I think of it as an early experiment in mixed reality.
Maybe Linden should put the ‘The Love Machine’ on the web so we can all click on it – altho’ it might need a ‘Kelis Button’ (”I hate you so much right now!”) fitted on it too?
With all my respect to you, I don’t quite understand your point, Dusan. Let me list some topics you were discussing in this article with a short comment.
1. THERE IS NO TECHNOLOGY and CAN NEVER BE that would protect content in a way you are asking for. In order to be rendered on your screen ALL objects and images MUST be decoded inside your viewer no matter what encryption or anything would be used. Even if LL wouldn’t open the source code of their viewer it would be reverse-engineered by someone, ‘patched’ and those ‘patches’ would be selling in the same way as they sell ‘decoders’ to the videogame boxes (if I remember the statistics right about 70% of UK gamers use them). THERE IS NO SUCH THING as ‘copy-protection’ in digital world and will never be. That’s the REALITY (for more than 2 decades). Why LL is to blame personally for this FACT? I don’t quite get it, sorry.
2. IMHO, land is not an ‘idea’, it’s a METAPHOR. You and many people (some of the 13 million, maybe even the majority) feel comfortable with this METAPHOR… how about the rest 6 something billion people on this planet? Are you sure they like it as much as you do? And it’s not quite true by the way… it’s not the ‘land’ that counts in SL, it’s SPACE and the ability to build or buy something, place it there (in that space you own) and ‘OWN’ it. So, the psychologically important is the ’sense of ownership’ in SPACE/items and their persistense (you log off but you know that IT’S ALL THERE). This sense of ownership doesn’t depend on price. So, basically, the END USERS, who don’t create, they just build a composition of objects and environment… they don’t give a s…t about ‘price’, oh! no! they do, they want it to be FREE as everything else on the Internet pretty much IS (didn’t you notice?).
3. As to the ‘economy’ argument… did you EVER consider to balance the real expences ABSOLUTELY necessary to build a CIVILIZED business in VW with a customer support, fast response, personnel talking to people in a civilized way and the amount of money that it MAY make? The examples of content and services built in SL so far don’t impress me, sorry, they are all built on a principle: “My clients SWALLOW what I do ‘as it is’, I can not and will not do anything else, it would be too expensive”. Hence the abandoned vendors, IM me, I will log-in in no more than a couple of hours… Is it a ‘business’? Nope. It’s a PATCH, or ‘lemonade stand’ if you liked that mepaphor more. There’s no sufficient DEMAND for products and services to build a CIVILIZED business, I’m telling you. Some people had a DREAM, that as soon as the ‘mass customer’ will come to SL there WILL be enough demand – it hasn’t happened so far, maybe it will, but I think that the main obstacle were technical limitations (maximum number of avatars in the sim in the first place).
So… really… what’s your point, Dusan? You want to suggest an alternative program supported by numbers? I mean REAL program. Please do it ASAP.
Alex -
I think you pretty much got my point.
I don’t believe content can be protected, which doesn’t mean people can’t try, I just don’t think I’m going to be getting into the IP business any time soon.
Space/land…same thing, not sure what you mean? I call it an idea, you call it metaphor, I call it land you call it space.
I’m not sure which “economy argument” you’re referring to? You sound as if you’re referring to a discussion of how real world companies can make money in SL? I’m referring to the fact that for all the discussion about servers and open source and all those copiable objects that the only real economy that matters is the marketplace for ideas.
And as far as I can tell, I wasn’t offering any prescriptives, either for Linden Labs, businesses, coders or others. It’s just me with my spaghetti plate of thoughts, so I’m afraid that for this post I have nothing to offer as far as alternatives.
It’s just my little window into the issues of the day in SL, by virtue of which it doesn’t make a lot of sense, I don’t give a lot of guidance on where it’s going, and it’s time for me to crash now, so we’ll have to pick this up in the morning.
I found this to be an interesting article (although I’m not sure all your ‘future’ predictions are dead on target…
).
Virtual Worlds (and our one especially) are indeed more about creativity and ideas than any first life world will ever be. It’s easy to have luxury here, so there’s no point in gaining as much (virtual) wealth as you can. Land is (fairly) cheap, so there’s no much status to achieve by owning a lot. It’s the ideas and how you execute it that count. I’m am bound to be more impressed by someone who can build, script, animate, … than by someone who has 50k L$ on his balance to spend.
Kind regards,
Vint
PS. Microsoft pontificating on what the Metaverse should be, which is a mirror world, but hopefully shinier with a proprietary operating system. => LMPAO! Lovely sentence. =)
My apologies, Dusan if the question about your personal suggestions sounded ‘aggressive’ or something, but it’s just about time to abandon thea Wicked Witch of the Second Life style FOREVER and start talking POSITIVELY, you know?
What would you suggest as a reasonable program for SL (and other VW) development? How should they proceede in your opinion?
Also, you came up with a brilliant words once: “a platform for story-telling”. That’s a great achievement, I can tell you. Now, here’s a couple of questions in this regard:
1. WHO will be telling stories?
2. WHAT kind of a stories that might be?
Prompt: Success stories of a “How I made my first million in Second Life” kind are not an option, it’s OVER.
Awwww what a nice way to wake up, reading your replies.
And yeah, I was a bit cranky Alex. I’m sooooo tired of all the crashy coding copyright moaning (not that a great deal of it isn’t justified), and I’m sorry if I sounded aggressive back or contributed to it, the whole point of my piece was to try to express what I see as the dominant moods and themes (or MY dominant moods and themes) which distracts (me at least) from the real discoveries to be had.
I’m trying to make the point that “Linden is making itself irrelevant” because we spend too much time worrying about Linden and not enough time trailing Bettina around the grid to see what tales people are telling.
My story box post is how I feel on good days, but also that the tensions produced in virtual worlds are a source of deep creativity and change.
Thank you for the replies. It means a lot to me.
Morning, Dusan.
Yes, I agree with you when you are talking about ‘tensions’, but… Who said it will be without them? That’s the whole point – this is a NEW THING, it is DIFFERENT (because of the highly immersive nature of the experience). Immersiveness means two things (and you can’t get one without another):
1. People get involved much more
2. If disappointed they will get frustrated MUCH MORE.
See what I mean?
Now, here’s my humble opinion: we (the people) need to LEARN how to use this thing WISELY. This in it’s turn requires us to think, discuss the possible solutions in a positive manner, make decisions (personal and as a community), ACT UPON.
What’s the main obstacle right now? Again, IMHO, the obstacle is the ANONYMITY. ‘Ideas’ are fine, but the ability to ACT upon ideas is closely related to the real life standing, abilities and resources. People who want to ’stay avatars’ – are NOT the type of ‘community’ that will ACT as a whole, see what I mean?
Also, as I said above, there’s not enough DEMAND for a grass-root growth of businesses YET. We all need to proliferate the idea of OPPORTUNITIES, available in VWs, not scare people to death with the negative experiences we all had at least once in a while.
Also, it’s high time for us all to realize that SL as many other things before is just another USEFUL TOOL for the humanity, no more, but no less! Well… it’s a powerful tool I must addmit… which only means that we all need to use it WISELY.
Personaly, I just don’t read posts on the multiple blogs I read every day apparently NOT leading to a consensus or a development of one. It’s always pretty much obvious whether a person wants to ‘change the life to better’ if you will or just to pore an ocean of personal dissatisfaction on the poor reader’s head.
So, maybe you explore the issue of anonymity and it’s consequences some day? I think – THAT is the main root of the frustrations you were talking about.
Regards.
Hmmm intriguing thoughts Alex and I have to say you set me up perfectly for a series I’m doing on that very topic.
Just a quick response, I’d like to answer you in more detail, but there’s a corner of the Grid that needs me, (I think).
[...] This post outlining some incredible developments that the RealXtend team are doing, as well as another web avatar-based interface… [...]
[...] This post on the economy of Second Life and how SL’s creative class soon will have plenty of options to choose from. [...]
[...] Content is copiable, land is free, long live the creators (tags: metaverse secondlife internet) [...]
[...] Content is Copiable, Land is Free, Long Live the Creators – Interesting pondering over Virtual Worlds by Dusan Writer. Although I don’t agree with all of her future predictions, imho, she points out some real issues and possibilities. [...]
EDITA KAYE, THE “SKINNY PILL FOR KIDS,” AND THE ASSOCIATION OF VIRTUAL WORLDS
There is a certain species of entrepreneur that capitalizes on the human desire for overnight solutions to intractable problems. Throughout human history, they have lurked in the shadows of the marketplace, eager to regale consumers with news of their miracle cures. In their haste to turn a profit, they often overlook minor details such as the product’s effectiveness and safety.
One might hope that our scientifically saturated era would be immune to bogus pitches, but the opposite is true. Sadly, exaggerated marketing appeals are common in the computer industry. Indeed, they seem to thrive when emerging technologies are dimly understood by the general population.
The myth of expertise camouflages holes in the huckster’s pitch, and problems remain hidden until the contract is signed and the check is cashed.
A few highly publicized scams and failures can cripple a young industry before it even has a chance to get off the ground. As an entrepreneur who cares deeply about the future of virtual worlds, I was surprised to stumble across this hyperbolic “get rich quick” rhetoric in an advertisement for Edita Kaye’s book Virtual Worlds: The Next Big Thing. My curiosity sparked, I turned to Google. Here I found a long entrepreneurial road littered with controversial products such as The Skinny Pill for Kids.”
The promotional blurb for Edita Kaye’s book breathlessly encourages readers to “Reinvent yourself. Start a business. Find a friend. Make a fortune…all this and more waits for you in virtual worlds. Join the tens of millions of virtual residents around the world who have already discovered this whole new metaverse. Everyone from kids, to corporations is going virtual!”
A self-described “Internet entrepreneur,” Edita Kaye recently emerged on the virtual world landscape as the editor of an on-line publication called iVinnie.Com. Composed almost entirely of hyperlinks to stories found in other publications, Kaye’s web site bills itself as “the number ONE virtual world news network.” But this is not Kaye’s only project. She is also the founder of the Association of Virtual Worlds (AVW). Created earlier this year, the mission of the AVW “is to serve those companies and individuals who are dedicated to the advancement of this multi-billion dollar global industry and reach out to those who have not yet found virtual worlds.” Since the beginning of the year, the organization has pumped out countless press releases, declared August 20th to be “Virtual World Day,” and launched a remarkable member-get-member campaign that has swelled the entity to more than 1,100 members.
Edita Kaye’s profile page on the AVW site describes her as the award-winning author of 16 books. Her list of publications includes Fountain of Youth: The Anti-Aging Weight Loss Program, The Skinny Pill, The Skinny Rules, and Cooking Skinny With Edita.
The rapid growth of the Association for Virtual Worlds is particularly impressive since it has been less than six years since the organization’s founder was defending her Skinny Pill for Kids on such television programs as The Today Show and Connie Chung Tonight. It has been less than five years since she incurred the wrath of the Federal Trade Commission and the House Committee on Energy and Commerce for marketing potentially dangerous nutritional supplements.
Beginning in 2000, Kaye used her promotional savvy and web expertise to market a series of weight loss supplements with names such as Skinny Pill A.M., Skinny Pill P.M., and Skinny Carbs. In 2002, she targeted her Skinny Pill for Kids at overweight youngsters, arguing that the supplement was “the FIRST thermic and herbal formula ever developed for weight loss for children 6 to 12″ and announced that it had “been created to help our children win their battle with fat.”
Such claims set off red flags, and nutritional experts soon chimed in with concerns that the pill’s ingredients (including the diuretics juniper berry and uva ursi) posed genuine risks for liver toxicity and kidney damage in children (Hopkins, 2004). On December 8, 2002, Kaye appeared on Connie Chung Tonight, defending her product against nutritional experts who characterized the supplement as “junk science.”
“The same foods that made you fat are going to make you skinny,” explained Kaye. “All you need is to have a watch to be able to tell time. In the morning, have an orange. At night, have some peanut butter. Take some of these supplements.” (CNN Transcript, 2002).
Other experts viewed things differently. The House Committee on Energy and Commerce initiated an investigation a few months later, and its Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations conducted a hearing on dietary supplements in June 2004. In this hearing, Keith Nayoob, Associate Professor of Pediatrics and Certified Nutritionist at the Albert Einstein Medical Center testified that the information on Kaye’s site was “scientifically baseless, blatantly exploitative, and potentially very harmful to children.”
The FTC agreed with Nayoob. In a complaint filed against Kaye’s company (Fountain of Youth LLC) in a US District Court, the FTC argued that the “defendants’ law violations have injured consumers throughout the United States” and “defendants have been unjustly enriched as a result of their unlawful practices.” In Feburary 2004, a settlement with the FTC prohibited Kaye from “making any weight-loss or health benefit claims for the Skinny Pills and similar products” in the absence of “competent and reliable scientific evidence to support such claims.” The settlement included a $6 million judgment, which was suspended due to the defendants’ inability to pay.
To anyone who has worked in sales or marketing, aspects of this story may spark a twinge of recognition. Whether writing a research grant or selling a product, there is a very human temptation to puff one’s claims by stretching the limits of language.
Edita Kaye has done a remarkable job of bringing people together in a very short time. In the interests of the community that she hopes to serve, it is crucial that she shy away from the hyperbolic rhetoric that characterized her past marketing efforts.
In all sectors, is essential that virtual world proponents take great care when evangelizing the technology. This is a technology that many people view as sexist, violent, and potentially addictive. Explaining the power of virtual worlds to our colleagues and clients is a full time job in itself. The last thing we need is the additional burden of explaining away snake oil diet scams.
Let’s try to get it right this time.
Interesting slide show about 3d worlds online.
We saw it before in 1996, then again in 2001.
Good to see it’s still around;)
Expensive I’ll bet.
janedoe – I worked with Edita Kaye briefly in 2007 on her virtual worlds products, including iVinnie and the AVW. Most of my negative experiences with her were personal problems…personality conflicts and such that don’t merit any public airing.
One relevant point I can offer, however, is that Edita Kaye has never set foot into one of these virtual worlds, at least not in any fashion that was more than glancing. She does not feel it is relevant to her role in the business. This was always a huge sticking point for me: If your entire business model revolves around virtual worlds, should you not at least be familiar with a few of the hundreds that are popping up? Take it for what it’s worth, but a person who creates an association for virtual worlds, and who is writing a book on the subject should be, in my opinion, interested in them. Also for what it’s worth, the last time I spoke with her early this year, the book was still non-existent, other than the cover and the blurb.
It should also be noted that on iVinnie.com, they are classifying such things as Facebook and MySpace as virtual worlds. At best, grouping social networks in with virtual worlds is a stretch. I think more likely it’s an attempt to capitalize on a very lucrative segment of Web 2.0. at a time when the buzz about virtual worlds is dying off amid technical issues and two years under-delivering on their high expectations. Good for them if they make it profitable, but personally it makes me think they don’t know their own subject-matter.
The whole experience for me was a rough one. I don’t wish any ill will towards Edita Kaye or her business ventures in virtual worlds. She has several fine people working with her who I appreciate and respect. But I would seriously caution anyone to do their own investigating before jumping head first into business relationships with this particular venture.
hehe
Reusability is indeed a useful concept. 
LOL
I am the Executive Director of the Association of Virtual Worlds. In other words, I helped Edita found the Association and now I lead and run it (and live and breathe it.) To learn about my years practicing law, advising global corporations on HR matters, and leading global IT functions for a Fortune 200 company, please take a look at http://www.linkedin.com/in/delchoness.
Since I started exploring virtual worlds, I have been cited as one of the most knowledgeable legal experts in virtual worlds, quoted in Forrester Research reports, interviewed, and asked to speak to large audiences about virtual worlds. That all said, the Association of Virtual Worlds is not about any single person. It is about its membership, its content, and its mission.
Edita Kaye is very engaged in virtual worlds study and follows developments religiously. In starting the Association she had a vision for a platform agnostic organization of people passionate about virtual worlds, with its own virtual headquarters for them to meet in and learn together. And that vision is coming true. In less than two months, the Association grown to nearly 1,300 members from or intrigued by virtual worlds of all shapes and sizes. The Association has announced its first title, The Virtual Corporation, a serious book on how virtual worlds technologies will impact the traditional corporate functions. The Association will be launching its virtual headquarters later this year. There are more developments to come for the benefit of the industry, but perhaps more importantly, that will deliver a compelling and thoughtful message about virtual worlds to a sometimes skeptical public.
By the way, in my extensive dealings with Edita, I have found her to be a highly compassionate and intelligent person with integrity.
I understand that people can say whatever they like in a public blog, and I absolutely treasure that right, but we need to focus on what’s happening in the here and now: a member focused organization, producing excellent discussions, and more to come, without any significant interference from any sort of hierarchy. Any questions, please contact me.
Im so glad to have run across this entry on Virtually Blind. I must say that the dialogue has completely provoked this response. I didn’t intend to respond….but here goes…I really thought that the idea reference was interesting. I must agree that for me the idea was about a new space to create and new opportunity to contribute and to be of service to other contributors. I am in the IP business; Director of the Virtual Intellectual Property Organization and practicing IP attorney. I was so glad to find such a large community of artists and inventors creating in virtual worlds and must admit I was pretty disappointed that, after centuries of international negotiation resulting in a nearly coordinated system of intellectual property rights recognition, their struggle continues and they must fight for their right to be recognized, protected and paid. Participating in creation of any sort is brave, priceless and deserves reward and recognition. As far as effective digital rights management, I am uncertain of its form but I have no doubt that we will see it happen. I, in the meantime, will use all the resources and tools at my disposal to assist content creators in their efforts to enforce and protect their intellectual property rights. Perhaps THE idea is that we’re all a little closer now than before and that its a little easier meet and share our ideas with each other. Why then now, of all times, be exclusive? Only IP, only open source; now more than ever we should be able to address the complexity of circumstances and allow situations to direct their own response. Let those who open source do so, support those who seek their enforcement, in other words, the VIPO way (much like the way of the Jedi… only stronger:)mtfbwy).
I wish they’d bring us in off the streets — right in world — and have focus groups there, where, oh, they could save travel and refreshment money and stuff…
“by putting it on an angle like that it looks even better!”
Haha yes, the wonders of the third dimension! This 3D webs will be big I tell you!
Digado we’re on to something here there’s no question.
I can only see this A/B testing as a positive development. For months now Linden have behaved like they hadn’t got a clue what they were doing – now they’ve officially confirmed this.
We can all rest easy now.
Hahaha. Yay! And roam the grid with no worries or cares!
Linden is on the ball and following correct testing procedures for a product of this magnitude. HCI and Usability are essentail for this product to be a success. Those that endlessly whine about Linden’s faults are hardly experienced at this type of testing procedure. AND, in most cases, really hardly familiar with the true usages of SL as a current medium, and certainly as a medium of the future.
What they are doing in this testing is dead on. Tests need to continue non-stop for the entire duration of the product. Linden needs to support the future viability of this product and not just cater to the old timers with nothing better to do. As more and more researchers and corporations look at the application for more serious use, the HCI issues are huge for mass deployment.
Oh, if you immediately do not know what HCI above means, then you are not qualified to respond to this post…and I rest my case.
The last time I was taken off the streets, it involved candy and a white van.
I’d rather not dredge that memory up, thank you.
You should read the comments on the SL blog post, especially #85
OUCH
Wow. Geez that hurts.
Cool stuff. My mirror neurons were pulsing. I need to be careful, I hear if one breaks a neural mirror it can be seven multiverse dimensions of bad luck…
At last! Thanks, Dusan; I’m putting this up on Around the Grid now, and linking to you as the person to twig me to it.
[...] — AT LAST! (With thanks to Dusan Writer, who put me on to this while I was tag-surfing the WordPress.com [...]
This is weird stuff from a german point of view. I can’t imagine having to put a copyright symbol behind each trademark I use in my writing. “I rode my Mercedes Benz® to the Paunsdorf Center®, where I bought some Coca Cola® and some Pringles® for my planned evening in Second Life®. While I was there I got a BigMac® at McDonalds® for lunch, later I checked the shops from Karstadt®, Quelle®, Aldi®, C&A® and bought me some Levi’s® and a new Motorola Razr®.”
Did I read that wrong or is that how they imagine people should write?
That’s how you should write, if you’re in the US. (First time only). Actually, if you look at a lot of US novels and so on that use brand names, they actually will have a copyright disclaimer at the beginning. Aspirin lost its trademark over something so simple and yeah, it’s moronic but hey. You would thing a capital letter would be enough.
Outside of the US the rules are a bit different.
Have a look at this comment on Xerox in Wikipedia:
The word “xerox” is commonly used as a synonym for “photocopy” (both as a noun and a verb) in many areas; for example, “Lifting whole passages from someone else’s speeches is not change you can believe in, it’s change you can Xerox”. Though both are common, the company does not condone such uses of its trademark, and is particularly concerned about the ongoing use of Xerox as a verb as this places the trademark in danger of being declared a generic word by the courts. The company is engaged in an ongoing advertising and media campaign to convince the public that Xerox should not be used as a verb.[9][10]
To this end, the company has written to publications that have used Xerox as a verb, and has also purchased print advertisements declaring that “you cannot ‘xerox’ a document, but you can copy it on a Xerox Brand copying machine”. (Note that xerox is functionally a verb in this sentence.) Xerox Corporation continues to protect its trademark diligently in most if not all trademark categories. Despite their efforts, many dictionaries continue to mention the use of “xerox” as a verb, including the Oxford English Dictionary.
Well thankfully where I am such demands would be laughed out off the courtroom…
I mean, I can understand that they don’t want a non-approved “Second Life Magazine” that takes advantage from the trademarked name, but other use, like writing an article about “with lots of luck it works fine every SECOND day LIFE”? Nope. I won’t go on a google search each time to find out behind what words that I use I have to put a ® or other character in a little circle
[...] I’ve been trying to track Google and Microsoft a little too closely. They’re all about mirror worlds, after all, and [...]
Slight sidebar about the Emotiv/3D camera thing, sort-of…
I wondered about the possibility of Second Life running on an (future) iPhone, obviously in a reduced form. Wouldn’t that be a nice home for a ‘light’ client, might not have to be so ‘light’ after all, we might be able to have some graphics even. Imagine a relatively low-res version of SL (without Windlight presumably) and all in PoV with the ability to look around in SL by moving your iPhone around. So to look round at your friend on your left, just spin the iPhone to the left. To check if you put your favourite shoes on today you tilt it down etc…
It would make for some fun contortions on the bus to work in the morning but it could be a lot of fun…an iPhone as a little ‘live’ window onto SL? Well, if EA can write (a demo of) Spore for the iPhone in a week, who knows what could happen?
They did it with a sort of bot video work-around Eris:
http://dusanwriter.wordpress.com/2008/02/14/second-life-on-aniphone/
And from what I can see on the Samsung phone, it does look like a little mini client no?
http://www.web20asia.com/252
However, I love the mechanics of what you’re talking about! Who needs a 3D camera? An iPhone will do the trick!
Yup, it’s the accelerometers in an iPhone that would make it a fun tool for SL – a bit like a Wii or PS3 SixAxis controller but with the display attached – a live peephole into SL.
It may all be academic, the announcements recently about the next gen’ of internet ‘The Grid’, capable of connections 10,000 times faster than we’re used to, throws everything into the air, perhaps literally as we all start connecting to cloud computers.
It would be such a paradigm shift, who’s going to need fancy graphics cards anymore – you’ll only need a terminal device capable of displaying the feed it gets from your subscription to SL (or whatever). Hard to get your head around, it would completely transform the current PC market. Interesting stuff… http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article3689881.ece
Play Games, Free Online Games, Game Forums – http://www.games.hn
Hey, Eris, we read the same papers. Hehe. Amazing stuff.
I also think there’s a secret force we keep overlooking – Amazon. They have cloud computing AND are building a virtual world.
It’s only going to get more interesting.
http://www.games.hn/
Thanks for noting this event! FYI, build festival is open to people of all levels and we will have scripters, texturers around to support people in acheiving their visions.
Thanks for the link!
Just FYI–I’m an instructional designer, not a professor. My comments are in italics, but everything else is a summary of what Barbara McLain wrote. “The two professors were effusive” is really incorrect on two points–you don’t really know whether I’m effusive or not when I’m simply reporting on someone else’s presentation.
I’m personally not as excited as she is about SL. I see the potential of virtual worlds, but it’s too bleeding edge for my job. I like seeing what’s possible as that vision for the future, but I know I’m at least several years away from being able to apply any of it in my own job.
“Brendan didn’t touch on the other issues brought up in my post”
Dusan …
Sorry to have have let responding to you slide for a couple of weeks!
Frankly, I have not been “in the loop” (as it were) for the discussions of the details of the Metrics capabilities of Code4 Software’s “V-Tracker” in relation to its implementation in SlippCat.
I’m assuming that nothing is “carved in stone” at this point, and that the whole question of data collection is going to be evolving as we work through the beta … and I wouldn’t be surprised it the question remained fluid, adapting the system to the specific needs of different clients.
Anyway, the Metrics questions would be far better addressed to either Antony or Jared.
thanks,
- B.T.
Thanks Brendan. It’s um, tripped off a debate amongst others, and a more serious debate with a university prof friend of mine. Interesting, because there is an article based on some work out of Queen’s University in Kingston about public attitudes to surveillance and tracking – sort of concluding that, well, most people don’t care. They feel there are advantages to being monitored and their purchase patterns and behaviors tracked. I’m not entirely sure where I come down on the notion, I’ll say at the bare minimum there should be transparency and an option to opt out.
However, more on the more general notion of the advantages of data collection, the cons, and the role of privacy and identity in the Internet world with a series of posts to follow.
[...] And if they do that, and everyone gets comfortable again because some agency wins a Cannes Lion award, then that’s good news for the metaverse, because the technology will advance, and in the meantime the real work is being done by the little people. And the schools. And businesses. And Amazon and Google and Microsoft and, well, the games. [...]
[...] this really is the cusp of a renaissance. And maybe there’s more going on than a bunch of new platforms that we need to put on a graph [...]
[...] BEEN A TEASER. Head on over to the new domain to read the rest of this brilliant and scintillating article. Or, because I have a picture of an old guy bowling on a Wii. Posted in Metaverse [...]
[...] is a sign that some chopping block days are upon us, kids. And please remember to vote Sidewinder on the [...]
[...] rest of this post can be read here on the new domain. Posted in Business in Virtual Worlds, Second Life. Tags: mark kingdon, philip [...]
I enjoyed reading this. Nice post Dusan.
A few reactions though:
I don’t think brands moved from SL to other places. I don’t think they were ever really there. Oh sure we had some big names dabbling, but the number of significant brands who were doing anything other than playing with innovation budgets in SL was quite small. If SL felt like the center of the universe to the residents for a bit, it was because of all the press. To serious brands, it had only half a million users back then and *still* only has half a million users. Brands were interested in where this could go and grow, but growth stalled. The numbers show that SL is incredibly interesting to its power users, but few others are coming and staying right now.
Most brand managers didn’t feel like they were yanked into a space of large promises and small results. They felt like they were putting tiny budgets into a cool new experiment area, and hoping for good results. The only people talking about SL as the new frontier of riches was the media, but any savvy brand manager knew better. I seriously doubt that they are in a cold sweat.
You talk about the people in SL having different ideas from what the brand managers thought — ie empty islands and poor projects. Oh sure, there were dud projects. Sure, some brands had a very hard time getting out from under their RL realities (give me my RL store, my RL product, my RL marketing approach). And with bad projects, SL users yawned, and often for good reason (but never mind that when you tried to make something actually fun with multiple users, the technology broke all the time — and your average person doesn’t care about explanations about why havoc crashed or LSL executes slowly or their 128MB nvidia card is struggling — they just know it’s not fun). To brands, SL had meaningless numbers from an eyeballs perspective. They never expect to get a huge percentage of any pool, so they look to big pools. 500K people? Not enough by a long stretch. So yes, brand participation could have been more compelling, but would that have been enough, when SL remains highly interesting to half a million people and uninteresting to everyone else?
We did a project with iVillage (late 2006, early 2007) that got tons of accolades from the community. SLers *loved* it. There was no central sim — rather it was about exploring SL. But iVillage looked past the applause from the community and blogosphere and looked at the total numbers and said, why am I bothering with this? Now, I think they should have continued, but my point is just that there’s a lot of silly retrospective oversimplification going on (then again, that’s nothing new).
And what is a walled garden? Is Amazon a walled garden, versus CNN.com? They are separate spaces but exist on the same Internet. If two virtual worlds exist on the same Internet, is that different? OK, this is about social spaces so things should be interoperable right? Then again, human beings tend to put themselves into communities, so is it a problem that you have lots of separate communities? Interoperability would be nice, but how many runs at that have been tried on the Web and failed miserably.
And self-expression. I personally love Second Life because I’m an artist. It was and is a wonderful canvas. But most people don’t express themselves through easy-to-use building tools. Instead it is through how they act or collaborate or dress or write or dance.
I think SL remains really interesting. But I have to face facts that few others on the planet seem to think so right now. I do think that visual communication on the net is important, and I do love the dream of Second Life, but I think it will be a ways coming, and that there will be multiple steps to get there, and that the platform to get us there might already be here… called the Web. But maybe SL will pull it out. It will be interesting to watch and help make happen.
>His lack of hands on IT capabilities might have the coders squirming but let’s face it, while the grid isn’t stable the position is far less about the code
Yes, I agree. Something this messy needs political leadership, not engineers anymore. I realized that when one of the people on the SLDev list today said the problem of making avatars interoperable was economic, not a programming issue. Geeks hate politicians. But they are necessary.
I have no idea what the substance of Havoc 4 is because I’m not running it yet, but I’ve long been impressed with Sidewinder because:
o he’s a grown-up among kids
o he follows up — relentlessly
o he plans his work and works his plan
o he reports on what he’s doing, warts and all — which is supposed to be the spirit of their wacky hippie system there but none of them ever do it
In short, Sidewinder is worth his weight in gold in that outfit. Yes, it would be good to clone him — except people like this get this way not by being clones, but by being individuals who take responsibility.
It’s that failure to take responsibility that haunts most of them.
The graphs in the article are used as a nice way to present subjective data as an supposedly objective point of view. Because of the 2axes structure you can pick the 2 qualities to support your theory and work from there, but the ’sweet spot’ is pure fiction. A dot on a graph but I don’t see any real reasoning why thin, captivating virtual worlds would be a good all-round solution. It isn’t. You need to cross reference that with demographics, mostly age, gender. Brand acceptability and actual measured results because at the bottom line, you need to create sales. Perhaps then you will find these thin virtual worlds are actually really expensive solutions to something we can already do a lot cheaper, a lot faster, and a lot more efficient if you are looking for brand engagement.
This realization that the 2D web might actually be BETTER than 3D is also the point I am starting to object to “the metaverse isn’t here yet”. The funny thing is the 2D representation on the flat internet is a choice we’ve already made some time ago. We translate 3D info into 2D. 3D is very time consuming and often requires a lot of explanation because of the various point of views, 2D has already ‘framed’ the mental picture’ the sender wants to communicate to its receiver. Furthermore, obviously 3D requires obtrusive applications for mostly fleeting, or ubiquitous actions (chat, music, information gathering) while thin worlds cater to what seems to be the core function of virtual worlds for the masses (almost all fleeting applications) in a much better way thick clients do – which is why these thin worlds could be better than thick worlds, but still WORSE than websites. Which makes for another interesting point. Why is it these virtual spaces have become so compelling to us, that these virtual worlds have become the goal itself…
I believe the ESC is not going to provide the answer to that we should be looking for. For them its most of all a niche. A niche they strongly believe in but a niche of companies willing to spend money on exploring these ‘new’ environments. But the truly interesting part to me, is what compels us about virtual worlds /is/ how tremendously compelling they are to those open to its immersive nature.
As it became a rather long reply I finished it over on my own blog:
http://digado.nl/thoughts-on-the-metaverse.html
Giff:
Thanks for such a thoughtful reply, and I think we’re actually agreeing on many points, we’re just saying it differently. Or should I say, I’m saying it without precision and you’re picking up on my tendency to vaguely ramble around a few loose points.
First, I should clarify. I’m not so naive to think that brand managers were betting their budgets on Second Life. It was always an experiment. But the cold sweat part isn’t in experiments on Second Life, it’s on the sea change in media. As I say, they’ve spent decades perfecting buying commercials, and they’ve been deluged with all this new media and fragmenting audiences and worrying about Google, with some agency and brand folks wondering whether Google might not be more of a threat than an opportunity, others wondering how the heck they can ‘go viral’ anyways.
They placed exploration bets. Some worked, (bad hair day on youTube) some didn’t. The bets they places were in Second Life, or product placements in games, or setting up mySpace groups or whatever.
The cold sweat part for the brand managers is that what’s hot never seems to STAY that way. That’s what I meant – not that they expected Second Life to be their branding platform, just that they keep placing these investments in the new promised land and can’t seem to get them to stick in a consistent way. Second Life yesterday is a widget today is a Metaplace branded gamelet tomorrow…but which ones will actually *work*? So they try to come up with some sort of reassuring model, measurement, revert to traditional media models, place bets in more than one place…my point is there’s no easy answer for how to deal with all of these options because the issue isn’t that there are more technologies or platforms, the issue is that the nexus of creation has shifted…we will always be a society that consumes entertainment, it’s just that the people creating that entertainment no longer need to live in LA or New York to be in the game (hehe).
Second. I’m not actually advocating here for Second Life. It may sound that way. Second Life for the purposes of mass entertainment and branding doesn’t work, at least unless someone can figure out how to better integrate it with other platforms…thus the walled garden discussion.
Should virtual worlds be interoperable? I don’t quite see the point, frankly. Someone is bound to come out with an avatar meta site…one log in, one age verification, one wallet, and it will act as an intermediary on your behalf for entry into various virtual worlds. And as far as porting content all over the place, that kills innovation in my mind. I DO believe that SOME content will tend towards standards – look, they can’t even get 3D animation software to talk to each other (not well anyways)…try reading about moving stuff from Maya to ZBrush or over to Vue and you hear the artists screaming in frustration and writing macros. It’s not like Second Life has put up some NEW impenetrable barrier, this technology for creating 3D content is complicated and seems to involve arguing over nurbs and polygons and render engines and what the heck does that have to do with making a beach house anyways.
I’ve come to the belief that open source is a beautiful thing. However, it’s a beautiful thing for specific types of development where the opening up of technology might be enabling, but in other cases it’s a recipe for poorly designed code that you then need to hire all those open source people to maintain or understand, and what the open source people really need is to make sure they bring a technical writer on board to make the user documentation actually usable by someone other than the coders. It may be open source, but that doesn’t make it openly accessible.
OK. So. Where does that leave me?
One, brand managers wake up in a cold sweat because it used to be you could choose and audience, find out what they were watching or where they were playing and then populate those spaces with content that they might enjoy (after some market research, testing, etc.).
Two, Second Life investments were an example of trying to get a handle on one of the many sorts of investments that are now available in a rapidly shifting and evolving marketplace.
Three, one lesson learned is that these investments can’t work inside little walled gardens. The only thing that makes sense is to be far more strategic with investments in newer technologies, game spaces, virtual worlds and social media. Which means creating brand stories that bridge all these spaces.
BUT, and here’s my big but – the problem is that brands aren’t just competing across so many new media and spaces, their stories are competing with the stories created by others. Stories created by some kid in their basement, or the Star Wars fan geeks making their own movie with George’s permission, or tomorrow’s Guitar Hero superstar.
I didn’t claim that Second Life was a platform for self-expression because it has building tools. (Or maybe I did, I’d better check, but I don’t think so). For me, Second Life is a story box, and it’s a beautiful test case on what can happen when you take self expression to its extreme. But the reality is that only a small slice of the SL community actually make great stuff, a slice make OK stuff just because, and the rest of them participate in stories of their own design – dancing, shopping, changing their avatar appearance, heading over to the Rezzable date sims, visiting a gallery, taking a class.
So there’s something mixed up here. Because my THEORY is that we’re in a world of ever increasing self expression. Second Life is ONE example of this (which is why I mention youTube and Facebook so much) and brands came into it trying to insert into an expressive community, and it was a nice experiment but didn’t quite work.
And again, I’m not saying that EVERYONE is going to be an artist, or a songwriter…but I AM saying that the people who consume these things are giving equal attention to the artists who aren’t backed by record labels, or publishers, they just toil away on their own and create little clusters of fans around them.
Because the tools for creation are being democratized (and look out for 3D printers and the ability to design and fabricate our own running shoes or custom create our own t-shirts) this is also leading to a shift away from territorial morality into a tribal one, and I’m a believer that this is a profound social shift, as well as one which might be a wellspring for new forms of magic, but don’t say that to the branding guys, it’s what I mean by “maybe some day they’ll get it”.
The brand paradigm will shift because it won’t have a choice. It will need to shift from thinking about target audiences, eyeball time and thin clients into metrics around co-creation and expression. Lego maybe gets it. MTV sort of gets it. And the marketers in general will eventually get it as well.
Second Life is a cool place to be if you want to grab some insight into what the logical extension of a full form of self-expression looks like. There are few platform controls (TOS whiners aside). The tools are fairly limitless (hard to learn but still) and so if you want to see what the full flowering of self-expression looks like, and how the consumers of that expression react and how identities and social communities shift and form in the face of it, come in and have a look. (Not YOU. I know YOU’VE come in and had a look, and by the way I like your little store.
)
In the meantime, we can plan to ride the sweet spot, and I TOTALLY agree, the Web is where it’s at. But if I was modeling a brand plan of the future I wouldn’t just be looking for this year’s eyeballs and time and so on, I’d be looking at objectives related to whether I ended the year creating new ways for my brand to respond and be co-created with, ways for brand extensions to be developed in collaboration with a community of users, methods for integrating product development and manufacturing into my marketing touch points such as through the use of 3D design spaces, new approaches to including community expression and goodwill as a line item in my financial reporting, methods for being a respectful participant in the open source communities who are probably coming up with their own ways to make a version of my product only better, and I’d end the year happy if I’ve reached a bunch of people, but I’ve also extended my business practices outside of some new measurement devices for advertising.
Hmmm.
Well.
I realize I kind of went off on some sort of rambling soap box. It’s exciting stuff and exciting times I guess. Because I really don’t think brand marketing is going to look anything like it does today a few years from now, and I suppose it’s fun to watch what happens.
/me nods.
Which is probably as much a function of the culture set up by management as it is individual character flaws. If the management culture is “hey, we all do what we can, we’re human, this is a grand experiment, do what you want, as you want, we’re a forgiving, organic, living, breathing experiment after all” then that’s fairly easily interpreted as “oh, OK, so I’ll do what I want and when I lose interest not really do it anymore” although you’ll still have your Sidewinder exceptions who likely had strict parents and an insane desire to please.
Permission to fail is one of the needed virtues of a company, especially a technology one. Permission to fail because of lack of trying, hubris, or being inconsiderate of your customers should be a virtue that gets you kicked out the door.
Will be interesting to see who M kicks out first.
I need a few more minutes later today to read that response properly, but in my quick scan, I think you’re right that we agree on many points.
[...] site has moved. Read the rest of this article here. Posted in Metaverse [...]
[...] some ways, this speaks exactly to the point I was making yesterday in the far-ranging discussion with Giff of the Electric Sheep Company: in a world in which there is increasing self-expression, [...]
[...] authors don’t mention PhotoSynth, sure to be one of the most astonishing tools for aggregating images of “place” and creating [...]
Not to toot my own horn, but the article neglected to mention Cyburbia (http://www.cyburbia.org). Established in 1994, it’s the Internet’s oldest continuously operating planning-related Web site. Although Cyburbia was the very first online community related to urban planning (its forums today have almost 5,800 members and nearly 400,000 posts), it was not mentioned in the otherwise comprehensive “Building Cities in the Virtual World” article that appeared in Planning Magazine. While there were six paragraphs devoted to Facebook groups in the “Online Communities” section of the article, Cyburbia was curiously absent, not just from the section but from the entire article.
To answer your question: Beacons. Or as Seth Godin calls them, the purple cows. Reverse the idea of finding your market by advertising, make them find you by being remarkable (worth making a remark about).
If you haven’t read ‘Purple Cow’ (all though I suspect you have) I really really suggest you go out and buy this book.
Social Networks just map demand and demographics to effectively launch your beacons, and engage in the conversation with ’sneezers’ – People who will tell people about your brand.
The bottom line is create good, remarkable products that don’t need advertising, but can withstand the test of conversation, and are actually worth talking about. How many Google or Apple ads did you see or hear?
Digado – sure, I read Purple Cow. And the book in the box and the prize inside. And there’s something to it. On the other hand, let’s face it, some brands don’t MAKE remarkable products, and never will, and there will still be people who buy those products. Is a piece of crap plastic in Wal*Mart not worth something, to someone? Is the price point the thing you remark about? Or maybe its Wal*Mart itself that’s the beacon?
(I just don’t buy some of Seth’s marketing punditry. It’s way too cute, and just because he’s bald it doesn’t make him adorable or someone I want on the cover of my night stand reading.
)
But I sort of buy the beacon thing – but my take on it is that in addition to trying to create something remarkable, like an event, meme, piece of media, or experience, (even, say, around some iPhone imitator that’s less cool, less functional, but maybe cheaper) brand managers are still faced with the sad frustration that they can’t always deliver on the promise.
OR, they don’t have the budget.
In Seth’s world, there are no crap plastic products from Korea that were the dream of some VP of product development who absolutely needed to fill a hole in their product portfolio because the competition beat them to it.
What’s even harder, are products that are incremental improvements only.
It’s hard to argue that if you create great stuff, even great experiences AROUND a brand that it’s a better way of thinking about and getting out your brand message. But it’s also hard to argue that we still need something pragmatic and serviceable for all the mediocre companies that are the actual drivers of the economy.
Sure, I have 4-5 products in my life that I lusted after. But I also have 100 products that I barely remember I own. And THOSE brands, in the long run, are the fuel of the metaverse and otherwise…and they’re also the products that have advertising agencies sweating bullets. Because even a mediocre product can spend a little more on Google Adwords and suddenly have sales. And even a niche product can find its home in the Long Tail.
With all the focus on “best platforms” (Web-based, 2D, 3D, immersion) to help drive brand growth, we can’t forget that our marketing models shouldn’t just be built for BMW or Apple. Our solutions need to bridge to the poor product manager whose selling some new bar of soap whose main feature maybe is that it’s orange and 10 cents cheaper.
Purple Cows are great, but maybe the orange soap belongs out there in the Long Tail somewhere? Are they the same thing? Different?
Gosh.
I think I’ve just managed to confuse myself even more than usual. Better think about this some more and get back to ya!
Haha.
[...] applications included one from Samsung, whose main benefit was the ability to cross-blog amongst other communication [...]
[...] on the other hand is a phone application that allowed you to make phone calls or send SMS messages from Second Life [...]
[...] homePapervision [...]
OK, devil’s advocate for a sec…
I always struggled with the idea that virtual land was ever any kind of ‘investment’. For starters it’s an infinite resource, so there can never be any (real) scarcity pushing up prices. Plus it’s in Linden’s interest that the prices stay low-ish and they control the supply of land so therefore monitor and cap the average prices. Land barons are in a (friendly?) battle with Linden, they want prices to rise but Linden want them to stay low – and in that battle Linden will ALWAYS win, they control the supply.
Where is the investment in that scenario? It’s like saying “I just invested in a blank webpage!”. Virtual land is nothing more than a host for your virtual endeavours not really an asset in itself (or not much of one). It doesn’t even have the attraction that a great domain name might, so even a blank webpage could have more real value!
Invest some talent, time and effort in your virtual site and you could reap big rewards, but the virtual land it sits on is, let’s be really honest, virtually worthless…
But Eris – SL isn’t a money and cents kind of place is it? Because while as a business person I’d knock anyone over the head with a board if they thought they were going to make a fortune in real estate, there’s something important about the concept of ownership and value related to “land” in Second Life.
Now, first, you’re right. Land is simply a development platform. Build something ON the land and it starts to have value. Now, if I start talking about land as metaphor I’ve got it wrong too (I think I ONCE thought that, but it’s such a thin argument). But the concept of land and its value as part of the social contract maybe has more resonance.
Linden doesn’t really have a choice. Servers are practically free over on OpenSim. (P.S. That Wired magazine cover “FREE” still bugs me – it ISN’T free, you’ll pay in the end with time, attention, data, lack of service or need for it).
And let’s face it, when they tweak the price of servers it’s sort of like changing the talent tree of Paladins in Warcraft – some people up in arms, others thrilled, you can’t win really. But the point is that the pricing is part of an interconnected cultural web, use and value that people are deriving from the platform. You can’t just look at it as an accounting entry change, any significant policy change can have impacts that are further ranging than you anticipated.
(Hamlet Au’s book is practically built on the premise that for every change Linden made the consequences were nearly totally different than they anticipated, so obviously if they’ve learned lessons they haven’t shared them or are keeping mum).
As far as impact – well, for me, I’m probably one of those who benefits more than loses. That doesn’t mean I don’t empathize or feel that they’re changing the “rules of the game” without telling anyone what the new rules or focus might be. On the other hand, I also suspect that they might not even see it that way, and just think it’s a pricing shift and didn’t really give a LOT of thought to what it might mean.
Time will tell, and in the long term if they can automate bringing sims online, if hardware costs are getting cheaper, and if the competition is practically free then the lowered prices are needed, although I hope that it doesn’t also lead to a cut in service investments or grid improvements.
HAHAHA did I just SAY that last part? Oh dear.
(Waits at the entry to the Lab to shake M Linden’s hand and wish him luck).
You’re right of course, the ‘concept of ownership’ is a big deal within SL and directly responsible for many avatar-hours conceptualising and building virtual places. But, to continue the devil’s advocacy for a bit, it is only that – a concept, not a reality. It’s a concept we all buy into because it makes the virtual world go round but at best it’s illusory and at worst it’s some weird kind of pyramid selling scheme we’ve invented for ourselves.
It works to translate the concept of land ownership into virtual places because it gives a structure and makes sense of things – it’s a paradigm we all understand. However maybe too many people have taken it too literally – they’ve not only carried over the concept of land ownership, they’ve carried over the RL idea that land is an asset with an intrinsic value, that it’s a finite resource and that it can actually represent some kind of financial investment.
Virtual land is really none of those things and it seems a bit (financially) dangerous to me to believe that it is. There is no doubt some money to be made dealing in it, land barons are basically a service industry, nothing wrong with that. There are also endless cool things you can do on virtual land. I just think some of us need to be a bit more clear-headed about what it represent financially – it’s a cost and not an investment.
We need to keep a similarly clear head about virtual banks and stock exchanges too! Wanna play stock exchanges? Use play-money!
Linden’s decision to drop the price of introducing new islands is interesting, it reveals the gulf in thinking between residents and Linden, as if that needed further illustration. To Linden it probably is just an issue of servers on racks getting cheaper and the growing competition on the horizon. It IS just an accounting exercise – they didn’t think of its implications on the inworld community because they’re not really part of that inworld community. I don’t believe either it was part of a considered strategy – only 2 weeks before we’d had the announcement about OpenSpaces’ wider availability and if there was any real planning they’d have rolled those announcements into one big policy shift. Instead the OpenSpace announcement was half-superseded and half-supplemented by the price drop.
At the moment it seems to be a case of “Hi right hand, meet left hand!”
There seems to be a real gulf between Linden and its customers and it’s growing. For example, how else to explain some of the bizarre UI decisions being made with Dazzle? I can’t believe that anyone that actually has to USE the interface would choose these changes (altho changes certainly need to be made)? The latest RC client has now developed a weird drunken camera movement which probably looked lovely at the office presentation when Torley demo-ed it, but it’s a **** to actually use to build with!
M Linden has a task ahead of him…
Thank goodness I wasn’t the only one who noticed that camera problem with the new viewer! I thought it was some kind of weird lag spike. Hahaha.
Overall, I agree with you about sim rental, land, whatever. If you invest in it you’re mad. I’m also looking forward to whether M Linden can make a shift from technology-based decision making (it’s a cost of entry, now, which isn’t to say stabilizing it isn’t important, someone should be FIRED for the number of crashes and shut downs we’ve seen the past few weeks) to customer-centric decision making which also recognizes that those decisions need to be made against the backdrop that they are “policy” decisions because they have cultural impacts, something that makes SL unique.
And hey. Linden’s not the only one. Look at Disney shutting down its virtual world Magic Kingdom. I wonder if they knew how many people had their hearts and wallets invested in that place. Probably thought “it’s just a game” (although I tend to think they’re smarter than that but who knows).
I wonder if they could sober up the camera as soon as you go into Build mode? I could live with that. Otherwise it’s another interface kink you have to adjust to and workaround instead of an interface enhancement that actually makes your SL work easier. I really wish they’d learn to tell the difference!
I agree about recent stability issues. I don’t remember it being this bad before. The current RC client is virtually unusable (for me) too, appalling frame-rates and crashing, hideous Dazzle interface, drunken camera. Do you think they’re missing a CTO? Is Cory Ondrejka secretly feeling very smug right now?
I don’t know if sacking people is better than forcing them to fix the problems they’ve caused – but either way I think Linden should give anyone paying land-tier some money back this month by way of apology. It’s only fair since SL is virtually unusable every day at peak-time and it would be a good PR gesture (for a change).
When I first heard of the proposed Education Track at the next Virtual Worlds Expo, I thought it was a good move. But then I realized that their main focus is on businesses, and they don’t have much credibility or mind-share amongst the educators, which are an entirely different community. For starters, educators are more interested in teaching and ideas than in making money. They are also going to have a hard time getting funding to go to an expensive conference that’s mostly aimed at business uses of virtual worlds.
[...] McKinsey & Company on Virtual Worlds: “Ignore them at your peril” – Dusan Writer’s reports that ‘companies who do not experiment with virtual worlds are putting themselves at strategic risk’. [...]
Sidewinder Linden is clearly a trained professional program manager. Every aspect of his work that I have seen has been impeccable – he has plan, he executes to the plan, he communicates clearly and follows up, and most of all he is infinitely conscientious. On more than one occasion I have seen him arrive personally to evaluate a problem, and while doing do he is personable, engaged and patient.
He is, in summary, a rock star.
Interesting thread.
The drop in land prices was lousy for land dealers who primarily aimed at earning money through flips. For those of us in the land game who aren’t planning on cashing out any time soon it’s a good thing.
I disagree that we can’t look at virtual land as an investment. It just depends on what you mean by investment. As an aspiring land baron my business model is to purchase the land and turn it into cashflow. On a percentage basis the returns we anticipate are far superior to what we would see in the “real” world over the next year. And they should be, since the risks are far greater as well.
My partner and I did some rough speculation as to what the drop in prices will mean for Second Life over the next year. We recently placed an order for 4 Openspace sims at $250 each. We heard through the grapevine that there are roughly 250 order tickets ahead of us, and I’m guessing that at least as many have been placed after ours. 500 orders at 4 Openspace sims each is a cash influx of $500,000 for Linden Labs. It is also a land influx of 2000 or more Openspace sims. Odds are in another 2 months most of those will end up on the auctions.
See you in world!
Lizard Howl
thats for sure, dude
I don’t recall when I made the observation that if Linden Lab™ didn’t get their act together and improve the stability (amongst many diverse problems) of the grid, Second Life™ would end up being nothing more than a little backwater world in the virtual universe.
Perhaps because of a case of “too little, too late”, they may arrive at that position sooner than later.
[...] want the magic of Svarga. Or the time I visited what was then Black Swan to swoon at Starax’s (oops, sorry, what’s his name again now?) [...]
A beautifully crafted post ; I can’t say the melancholy and forlorn hope do not touch me to the heart — and yet, and yet… there is so much magic around us ; the magic of people inventing new lives for themselves every single day, so much more powerful, if less spectacular than enchanted sculpty glades.
Maybe that is the vision of the future : that there isn’t any grand one. Just a new world growing out of tens of thousands of small ones.
Awww sure Rheta. And first, well, this blog’s my metaverse blog, but none of us should forget that there’s a wider world as well.
But I suppose that’s one vision and I guess in many ways it was Philip’s. A grand vision of everyone connected for a better humanity, everyone growing their own little worlds, but it is nice to hear and listen to what people will think that means and I almost feel ashamed now to think that one time I thought brands might kind of get it, but I suppose it was too early for them, or this ONE grid was too early in any case.
I’m at a Games for Health conference in Baltimore where I’ve seen people using platforms for all kinds of things – helping kids exercise, stroke patients rehabilitate, scientists discover proteins through massive online games, brain wave controlled racing games for ADHD treatment instead of using drugs, or MTV doing some amazingly simple stuff to educate about HIV infection.
I wonder whether with larger shared visions we can find other ways to focus our thinking, creativity, and attention on technology development. But you’re right – there was no grand vision for the Internet really as it started to sort of make itself up. I suppose it would just be nice in a period of grid crashes and asset server freeze-ups to know that there’s others with hope and optimism and to hear what that hope and optimism is based on.
I was feeling inspired down here, listening to excited people talking about how video games can help cure, treat, educate, engage. SL has a wider purpose than just ‘let’s buy a beach house’. Or maybe it doesn’t. And maybe a beach house is enough. I am curious what the talent thinks – the ‘guild hall’ at Rezzable or our friends at Avatrian or other dreamers who might have some ideas on what it means for us to share a platform for stories.
We are of course very glad that you picked-up on the upcoming Garden of NPIRL Delights event. Watching people realize their visions in the virtual world over the last week has been very exciting and reminds me of why we got into the virtual world in the first place.
The virtual world is a new frontier and it is amazing to explore and join. It is unexpected, it reminds of things from the real world and from our dreams at the same time. It is like a time machine where you zip forwards and backwards. Most importantly it is a unique place for self-expression without limitations or pre-judgements. Of course the social and real-time nature of interaction is fanatastic and adds the energy to the experiences.
So where’s the problem? Let’s face it…CSI was/is a flop. Most of the corporate builds are empty (deservedly so) and the one good one Pontiac Motorati got canned. Why? Every corporate we meet has a negative comment about SL. SL was overhyped by the media and clumsy developers delivered boring sims at high prices. Also experienced online marketing people took a risk on SL, but with weak traffic they cannot justify what looks like wasted money. They built it but not enough people came. LL promotes a ridiculous registration statistic when so few people can even get off the arrival islands. There is now a backlash. LL is flat on a meaningful response to this. They should wake-up and start telling their own good story.
However, the main issue — is content. The core SL audience (the 400,000 or so active/engaged users) has a collective early adopter profile. They want/demand edgier stuff and are not bothered with the rough usability or need to understand technical details to enjoy stuff. But the taste, patience and interests of the much larger mainstream audience are different. So really, making more of the same or even better more of the same is not going to increase meaningfully the SL active user count.
The concern for the future of SL is how to attract the mainstream users without killing what is unique. So maybe it would have been worse if tons of CSI fans came into SL and the whole grid reacted to become more like WOW.
For what it’s worth here’s what we are trying to do right now:
* more user generated content. Garden is an example, we are also continuing to host more fairs and festivals on our 4 special events sims. We take request from people for 1 or more sims.
* more digital art shows. We already run the largest art collection in the metaverse — Black Swan, Collectors’ Gallery, the Cannery and the Dagger Eye. We also have sculptures scattered across the void sims as well as a new goth cemetary next to Carnival of Doom. We are bring digital artist into SL from places like deviant and flickr.
* Open Source community project to make surfing waves and boards. This is being announced shortly, but main point is to allow more people to participate in making surfing great. So we will support a LSL development community as well as give Board makers free sales areas on our sims.
* More interactive. We are opening a 2nd Greenies sim in next few months. It will involve questing and exploration in a great build context.
* User participation build for a new version of the Toxic Garden. We will announce this soon as well, but effectively we want users to build the story from an outline about utopian dreams gone awry.
* Carnival of Doom will start running a weekly show all done by SL residents. We are in fact offering free rentals in a new trailer park for the performers.
You will also see more pay-to-visit across our sites. In most cases the fees will be nominal. We think people will pay for quality and value–our mission is to understand what that is.
As far as LL goes…we still think they are the best platform for this kinda stuff. If we had any wish, it would be for them to sell off Mainland and focus on establishing service level agreements for customers. The grid is way passed the point where LL needs to prop-up the rental market.
Anyway, not sure if that was hair down or knickers down…cu on the grid (when it’s up again)!
Is this wise at a moment when many (most?) ISP’s throttle traffic on P2P networks and when European ISP’s are being warned they may be held responsible for content distributed via P2P networks?
Wouldn’t they be tiptoeing thru’ something of a technical and legal minefield?
Hi, Eris, I don’t think P2P, in itself, is legally questionable; using a peer to peer network like bittorrent to share copyrighted material without consent certainly is.
I think it’s sweetly naive to think a virtual world like SL could be implemented using P2P because it assumes that, um, basically, its residents are all upstanding human beings who won’t use knowledge of their neighbour’s IP addresses to wreak havoc. I shudder to think on it! The problem could be got around with proxies but is it fair to call a network “peer to peer” when no two peers are ever directly connected to each other? I don’t see how a distributed “avatar position” network translates to unlimited scale when all other content (including comms) remains centrally sourced.
Icha
[...] like Blue Mars are throwing caution to the wind and assuming that computer power will continue to grow [...]
So….ummmm….say one was interested in this patch. How might they go about getting it?
Well, I received it by e-mail.
Hotmail – Dusan.writer
Or contact friends on SLDev I suppose. I’ll try to track down if it was posted somewhere as well, remembering that it’s being distributed for comment only at this point as a development/test patch.
I doubt that live-rendered shadows will arrive in SL anytime soon but there could be worthwhile compromises while we wait…
I’ve found myself often wishing for a ‘bake-shadow’ option within SL itself. So that when u finish a build or object you could right-click and choose ‘Add Shadows’ and the SL client would take a minute or two to render and ‘bake’ your object’s textures with light and shadows appropriate to SL’s lighting model.
It could be done client-side, avoiding server lag, and would then deliver you a set of baked textures specific to your object. If everyone had access to an inworld option for doing this there would be some visual continuity across SL and it could make things look that bit more ‘real’ without the huge overheads of rendering live shadows.
It’ll never happen of course – we appear to have had THREE failures of Asset Servers last night – so first things first.
Interesting idea Eris. I don’t have enough insight into where SL is headed, but I understand that one idea is to move objects closer to source (i.e. embed objects within the sim architecture rather than a central asset server). If this is a prelude to opening up the architecture in order to allow individuals and groups to host their own servers it might make some sense – host not only the sim but also the object repository. If this were true, I wonder if it would then be possible to pre-load objects? Either distribute on a CD or otherwise make the user wait while a sim preloads before entering, sort of giving more control over the experience.
Now if this were true, I wonder if then it might make sense to allow better shadowing because the server can optionally spend less time loading up assets, or can control that loading a bit better.
RealXtend has shading as part of their basic architecture. And it doesn’t seem to cause lag, although it’s hard to tell since the platform is still fairly new and has other issues.
Having said all that, none of this matters if they can’t keep a basic grid up and running. These asset server issues have gone beyond a nuisance, in my opinion, and are fundamentally undermining SL as a platform. Glitches are one thing, but Philip spent a lot of time preaching how their number one priority was grid stability.
They’ve either made the wrong technology choices, don’t have the requisite sense of urgency, or, well, just don’t have a clue. For education institutes, corporations and in-world entrepreneurs (not to mention casual users, the lifeblood), to find the grid LESS stable after all the preaching about needing stability instills negative confidence.
Let’s remember that it was 9 months ago that Philip gave his keynote at the SLCC, and I’ll quote from a live blog of it:
One of the things we can do to start improving quality is publishing our internal metrics the same way we’ve been pushing economic metrics out there. This line [of stability] has been fairly flat since March. We’d like to have it go down, but it’s also stable. You can’t pick out the big releases that some people think are causing problems. We’re not actively screwing things up as much as you may think. By tracking and getting very serious about inventory loss, and there’s 20 different equally weighted ways to lose inventory, we can do better.
Um. I sort of take exception to that. But maybe he’s right “We’re not actively screwing things up as much as you might think”……BUT GIVE US TIME WE’LL GET THERE!
Thanks for the mention!
You’re right about current performance in SL, we’re way past the annoyance stage and now we’re going to start haemorrhaging the less committed users – and those that are left should probably be committed immediately.
OK, so Linden want Second Life to become the HTML of virtual worlds, the standard that everyone uses, but how best to get there? Is the choice between open-source and proprietary code, which often is the difference between evolution and revolution? Open-source is an amazing way to evolve code, many minds making light work of debugging and securing. Proprietary code is usually much more driven by innovation – you need to achieve what others have not in order to have/keep the advantage.
Second Life has been proprietary up till now and it’s got us this far. I know there’s a huge contingent of code-heads baying for the server code to go open-source too but do we pander to them and risk losing the momentum? Or is it now so bad that SL will fall without their help to stabilise and optimise the current system?
As far as shadows and light-fall effects go, there must be a middle way – surely it has to be about appropriate technology? The only objects that need live-rendered shadows are the moving ones, everything static like buildings would be equally effective with baked shadows – maybe rendered once in-world as i suggested before. Maybe we could have the best of both worlds that way?
[...] in the health care industry are actively moving forward in attempts to help those in need. With a tip from Dusan Writer’s blog, Creakysites has an excellent listing of links to several entities that have entered online worlds. [...]
Thanks for the post. It helped inspire a post
http://kouroshdini.com/2008/05/12/an-interface-of-health-and-technology/
Not to rain on the parade of the fine people in Vancouver, the Detroit Electronic Music Festival streamed live into SL last year. It was one incredible time!
[...] dusan writer’s metaverse Mega Prim Creation Patch for Second Life Viewer Quote from the site – The long standing mega prim controversy may be partly resolved – by adding it [...]
If you’d like to try out a pre-compiled viewer (Windows only) with this path applied, you can either use Nicholaz’s EC-f viewer (http://nicholaz-beresford.blogspot.com/) or download a copy of my custom viewer (http://ablewhitman.org/blog/).
[...] to DusanWriter, there are pharmacy patient case studies as well in Second Life. The school has started to use SL [...]
[...] Dusan Writer, MSNBC Reports on Advances of VW/RW Merger: [...]
[...] the megaprim patch was released, and Nicholaz included it in his Eye Candy viewer…Linden goes and “fixes” the [...]
[...] has also made forays into 3D modeling, first through its partnerships with Dassault Systems, and then through its purchase of [...]
[...] written before about how the gaming world has woken up to the power of user-generated content and remember [...]
make money online…
It also got me to wondering what it is that people get from these things. Do people really draw motivation from this stuff? I have been reading Darren Brown’ s Tricks of the Mind , or at least re- reading sections of it, this week. He points out that m…
[...] Dating Avatars: Preparing for Face-to-Face Contact Autodesk, MegaPrims, and the 3D Pipeline Puzzles Continue Ambient Occlusion – Shadows in Second Life Rezzable, Rezzable Let Down Your Hair (including a long and thoughtful response on Rezzable’s strategy by RightAsRain. Posted in Metaverse General. [...]
fwiw, Microsoft made forays into the 3D market long before your examples. In fact, I’d argue that a major reason high-end 3D software became generally affordable was due in large part to MS’s purchase/port/sale of SoftImage back in ‘94.
As to Second Life’s 3D toolset, I’ve long wished for something more capable but doubt we’ll see Linden Lab significantly improve the tools until a competitor forces their hand.
With regard to MilleniuM, I’ll confess to not fully understanding what the big deal is. Getting CAD models into game engines is far from new (I was doing this with Quake in the 90’s); and getting CAD into virtual world engines is also not that big a deal (I used Pro/E to generate some preliminary models in There’s engine). Am I missing something?
[...] posted recently on the ever-deepening pipelines and networks for content creation, and Hamlet Au picked up on this [...]
It’s odd, but for the most part no one talks about something that is actually available for creating files in a MAYA plug-in and importing into SL. Granted its’ far from perfect, but it’s certainly a start. The plug-in is called SLTkPro. The Japanese Company that created the plug-in charges too much and is very difficult to reach.
One of the outstanding problems you’ll see right away has to to with exporting textures….
Actually, I think I’ve touched on this many times haha and use it religiously. And sure, texture imports are a drag, but just bake and upload and you’ve got a nicely rendered build.
But thanks for the reminder and for all others you can check out the plug in here.
Thought provoking perhaps, but I really can’t come to the same conclusions:
1. On “It would have been done already”: With the constant client updates and patches, any modification currently won’t last till the next patch.
2. The interface modding is terrribly complicated and build codewise, not some WYSIWYG interface interaction designers prefer. So you’d at least need a team of 2 ‘experts’ to get going with modifications.
3. With the investment involved (because of the difficulty in the construction, unlike interface mods in say, world of warcraft, who have outdone themselves in making it accessible to users as the interface is so relevant to the user) and the constant need for updates, it’s just not worth the time/effort to mod the public client.
4. Private clients are already being modded, but mostly in code. Nicholaz of course, apart from performance issues also added interface options such as dynamic stretching of pictures.
5. With every update – the interface seems to get worse. Starting with the communicate options all getting grouped, voice panels, the shouting dazzle skin and now the main chat window constantly disappears unless you press the little balloon to the side.
6. The first user experience is inexcusable. There are several good writeups on the major flaws – not just by sloppy work, but by design – in this first hours of SL.
7. I don’t think this ‘mastery of the interface’ is relevant at all. Sure, maybe it filters the new users down towards the users ‘willing to make an efford’ – like the early days firefox theory (people who use fire fox are smarter, because they have the will and know how to install a new browser) but this is not something to be proud about for a platform that tries to stay clear of this ‘geek niche’. Crap interfaces are exactly what they are, especially when trying to make an open world for everyone as ‘advertised’
8. The interface mods are not ‘dumbing donw’ the experience, its about creating a less steep learning curve, which means prioritization in the interface – there is a reason some buttons are bigger on this website, and some are text. These reasons are by no means represented in the interface of SL
9. I think the point to be made is ‘would a better user interface and first user experience significantly boost retention rate’, or is there something about SL that still won’t appeal to over 90% of initial sign ups, and does -that thing- deserve prioritization. In my opinion that will depend on what direction M will try to steer the ship first, as I’ve written about here.
Oh I don’t think you have it in for us. You are half right. CSI was meant to go for several months but not in perpetuity. The OnRez viewer, however, we were indeed hoping to continue to enhance for a long time. We decided to shift our focus.
I say look at SL’s growth rate. You’ve tapped out the number of people willing to put up with the accessibility and usability problems. But I do agree that better UI isn’t a silver bullet. There’s a long list of barriers to usage that doesn’t stop at UI, some around accessibility, technology requirements, cultural attitudes, and of course what should really come first: purpose.
But it is good to question these things!
Bingo Giff. I’m with you.
Questioning the sacred cows is a way to circle around the real question – which is purpose.
The received wisdom is that we need to do things like improve the interface because we need to make the platform more widely accessible and remove the barriers to entry for the ‘casual’ explorer.
But what if you take these sacred cows and rip them apart a little.
Hypothetical –
What if instead of simplifying the user interface you made it MORE COMPLICATED? Just asking the question points to the idea that maybe we should be questioning the very assumptions on which all these received orthodoxies are based. What if the masses are all headed somewhere else? What if they’re going to be playing on little Metaplace apps all over the Web? What if they’re going to be addicted to Spore, and setting up little 3D rooms off of their MySpace profiles?
Maybe SL is destined to become increasingly specialized with more complex tools for visualization, simulation, creation, and art because, let’s face it, you can clean up the interface all you want but it doesn’t mean the masses will show up.
Here’s a what if:
- What if instead of cleaning up the buttons you add MORE. Say, embed a sculpty program like Cel’s SculptyPaint. Add MORE stuff to learn, and make it part of the “build tools” – add the ability to make sculpts from within the UI. Enable more complex builds rather than simplify.
- You add prim animations as its own interface.
- What if instead of making the camera and controls easier, you made them HARDER. Include the ability to program deeper camera paths, focus settings maybe, shutter speeds?
- What if you built a deeply detailed particle generation engine within the viewer. With a 100 little buttons and knobs, letting you push particles to their extreme outer limits.
Deepen the interface, make it more complex, (and deal with all the other issues like grid stability which is increasingly a cost of entry and survival issue and not a “feature”) and maybe you end up with a small group of users but they’re people who want to push the limits of simulation, 3D modeling, artificial intelligence, and machinima?
Now, I also totally agree with Digado. Because the interface is designed by someone who would never get a job at Apple. It’s a joke of usability design. (Although, IMHO, so is Maya and it still sells). But should we really be redesigning the interface because we want what’s THERE to be easier to use by the newbie and casual “surfer”…or should we be redesigning it so that it’s useful to those who need more powerful tools so that they can extend and deepen the platform beyond a beach house build or a classroom?
Food for thought, but the orthodoxy I’m questioning is as Giff points out: to what PURPOSE all these proposed changes and improvements?
I think the major problem to recognise here is the interface doesn’t match the (communicated/perceived)proposition of Second life.
It’s really as simple as that, the purpose.
- Lack of incentive makes people less willing to learn the interface – when its this complicated, they leave. Apparently for 90% there is no clear ‘gain’ from taking the time and effort to learn about the interface – which to me is perfectly understandable at this point.
- The 3D photoshop (a term coined by Eric Rice) application you get by introducing the features as you posted them, means repositioning second life as exactly that (as written about in the earlier article), and would just shift the ‘niche’ from a ‘3D facebook’ to a ‘3D deviant art’.
- The market SL addresses benefits from being browser-like. ‘Maya is complicated and still sells is true’, but the obvious difference is Maya is goal oriented, and a focus product for a specific niche, of tech savvy people (how many people inside the ‘mass market’ (early and late majority) will use maya? Again it comes down to SL trying to be everything to everybody.
___
P.S. – A common misconception is to think ‘browser like’ means ‘looks like a browser’ but it’s not. A browser is a great way to navigate trough 2D spaces, but that doesn’t make it true for 3D spaces (anyone who has ever been in an activeworlds based world will know this).
However, every button in a default browser is either task oriented or ubiquitous. The affordances used have become cross language conventions, which has made broad adoption possible very quickly. SL, if it wants to maintain the proposition of being everything to everyone, needs to use these common conventions and affordances to make their interface as intuitive as a browser.
Hmm Dusan, can open, worms everywhere….
My tuppence : we need a simpler UI for the casual visitor AND we need a more complex (read: professional) UI for the committed builder/resident/businessperson. In other words stop trying to make one size fit all and realise that there is a natural divide between ‘visitors’ and ‘residents’ and create two separate but complimentary clients to accommodate them – a simple to use browser AND a pro-level creation client.
Reflect that divide in the way we access SL too – free feature-limited access for ‘visitors’ and a subscription-based full-access for ‘residents’. Virtual world usage will naturally divide this way anyway, we should be smart enough to realise that now and plan around it.
Too many of the discussions around SL and other virtual worlds focus on the technical problems and possibilities (Dusan’s blog is a welcome exception to this!) because the discussion, and to a large extent the actual platform itself, is being led by developers. Not surprising for such an emergent platform but not always very helpful either. We’d get nowhere without the codeheads, but very few will have the vision a platform like SL needs. It’s not enough to imagine the technical possibilities of virtual worlds – you have to judge whether anyone will actually want to use those possibilities and what for.
In the end it’s always about the people, not the code.
Digado – great points. But I suppose I’m opening up these discussions not so much because I believe the client is amazing, but to highlight that we have all these discussions about it and about the SL experience without being entirely sure that your stated purpose is TRUE.
Does the proposition that SL needs to be all things to all people stand? If it does, then I’m with Eris and you – let’s do up a simpler client. Hey, any improvement is an improvement. But if you’re truly going for the “we’re here for everyone – your grandmother, your kids, your browsing and exploring and experiencing desires” then sure, we need to have a stripped down, elegant, and easy-to-grasp client.
I’d propose however that the purpose and reality are increasingly at odds. Second Life is NOT being used for casual browsing – it’s being used for people who are deeply committed and are spending increasing numbers of hours in world. The community isn’t growing, but average user hours are. Concurrency is growing, but slowly.
And as Giff has pointed out, the mass media approach has moved on to other platforms – casual games, MTV, There.com (or back to There.com), custom apps, 2D worlds, etc.
So, if the masses are moving on, are we trying to lure them back? Or are we instead seeing the rise of Second Life as the “site of deepest engagement” – a place that appeals to and attracts folks who are going far deeper than dancing and hanging out at the beach – artificial intelligence researchers, educators, simulation folks, architects, artists, etc. If so, then you’re looking at a target audience that maybe is willing to overcome the learning curve if the tools keep getting more robust.
And all of this, of course, makes no difference if the grid isn’t stable. I’m taking as a given that if they don’t fix the asset server and improve grid uptime that they’ll never last in the long run.
So…well, I agree with you. I WANT Second Life to be a 3D platform that really DOES connect all of humanity. But Philip’s been going on for a year now about how “the brands came too early, we weren’t ready for a mass influx, and really, it’s schools and business-to-business and collaborative platforms where we’re REALLY at” which doesn’t sound a lot to me like “connecting all of humanity” (at least in the short term) and would imply that we should be building out tool sets for these target audiences rather than worrying about whether your newbie who came in for a peek around can find the “talk button”.
But look. I’m willing to give this a shot. Or pose a question – what does it REALLY take to make a simpler viewer? Let’s say one whose buttons and tools are so simple that they can mostly withstand the many updates and patches that Linden itself releases? Is that possible? How hard is it? Can we create a “newbie viewer” easily or is it monumentally difficult? And what would it take to motivate someone, anyone, to sit down and actually sketch something out?
Here’s a link to Loyalist’s youtube video of a Canadian Border Simulation in Second Life.
Maybe I’m way too cynical but Linden’s switch in emphasis to education and corporate usage seemed to be motivated by the need to keep SL commercially viable, and little else. They’ve tacitly acknowledged they can’t/won’t do much to protect IP within SL so they have to shift the inworld economy to something that doesn’t really require it – and suddenly we have corporate users clustering behind firewalls and education budgets being lured with ‘one avatar per child’ bait. Those users will always be welcome and important to SL but it seems like a short-term strategy to tide us over till the crowds return?
SL is the “site of deepest engagement”? Great phrase but why limit ourselves to that? Why does it have to be one or the other – dancers OR designers? We can have both, in fact we NEED both – but we should lead each one down a slightly different pathway into SL and realise that they came, and will ultimately stay, for slightly different reasons.
Sorry, that’s fourpence now…i’ll stop….
Wow, thanks Ken. I’m appending the original post with the video.
[...] READ MORE Posted in Second Life, Virtual worlds, metaverse. Tags: ideas, metaverse, Second Life, storytelling. [...]
[...] READ MORE (Including comments) AT NEW LOCATION Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)The Place of Alts in Second Life90 Percent of Business-Launched Virtual Worlds Fail Virtual theaterHow Second Life Affects Real Life Posted in Future Worlds, Metaverse Roadmap, Second Life, Second Life Experience, Virtual worlds, metaverse. Tags: alts, avatar, avatars, identity, Second Life, Virtual worlds. [...]
[...] THIS POST HAS MOVED. READ MORE INCLUDING ARCHIVED COMMENTS AT THE NEW LOCATION. [...]
[...] Next Time Your Group Gets Spammed, Fine them $200M Killing Sacred Cows I: The Second Life Interface (During which I provoke, retreat, provoke again and come away wondering what it would take to make a simple client). Second Life as a Pedagogical Tool Pioneer Virtual College Looks To Profit from its Pioneering Autodesk, MegaPrims, and the 3D Pipeline Puzzles Continue Posted in Metaverse General. Tags: client, education, Linden Lab, pedagogy, Second Life, viewer. [...]
This is a better description of what the Wii Fit is all about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iYBmAVuBns
Virtual Cd 9.0…
An interesting post by a bloger made me……
ok i see but idk?????????????????
so wat is the point of this u so call game u suck jk
@Dusan: One thing I think is worth considering with the idea of seeing SL as just the ‘deepest platform out there’ – in a way intentionally raising the bar to get in so you get a dedicated (creative) core – is I just haven’t really spotted something that would make me enthusiastic about the idea of ‘filtering trough interface’.
Filtering trough content, by peers, by advertising/positioning all work for me because it allows growth. You prioritize, specialise, become remarkable in your field and grow. But filtering trough interface is just a poor option given the choice of ‘fixing the interface and re-position’ or ‘make our software inaccessible to but the most enlighted’ on so many levels. The problem is, if you want to continue the maya comparison, is that SL is a social platform, and the essence of the entire project is the human factor.
Without that you’d be much better off designing in maya, or listening to music in iTunes, or watching pretty pictures in GTA IV of Flickr. Creation is sharing, not just with likeminded techs and other ‘3D artists’ but with a broad community. Inspiration doesn’t come from just navel gazing within one small niche, it’s culture brought to you from a diverse group of people.
So in whatever way you can amplify and facilitate this human factor, you should – and the proposition above has the counter effect, not just on the entry level, but also in the long term. Think of how that would shape a community, how it IS shaping the community.
I WANT SL to reach the masses. I want dancers and community and explorers and wanderers and people who just want to mosey on through and check out the Greenies and then hit a music gig or go to a gallery. And the current client is an impediment to that – along with all the other impediments, and sacred cows and so on.
OK. So, I throw out the sacred cows and you guys have convinced me – it’s a sacred cow for a reason. We need a simpler way to interact with the world. So let’s get moving shall we?
Well, I’m not entirely sure what your point is Max, but if you’re asking what I think the point is – well, I don’t know, other than Disney seems to be taking every step possible to grab people entering interactive spaces and keeping them (until of course they pull the plug and leave a bunch of avatars stranded on some cob-webbed server somewhere).
Disney’s model, much like Barbie say, is to own a “user journey” from childhood to adulthood, through dress-up to social spaces. Just keep an eye on your wallet, I’d say…kids don’t ask for an increase in their allowance anymore so they can buy a new bike or go to the store and buy gumballs, they want a bigger allowance so they can buy virtual sneakers and play more games and enjoy what can be highly engaging experiences (I was going to put the word addictive but that’s a term fraught with meanings of its own – is addiction to consumerism an addiction or just a cultural framework?)
Oh dear. I’m feeling practically like a socialist today.
[...] love Tom because he helps to articulate my vaguely formed notion of Strange Loops and which was described by Douglas Hofstadter in his book I Am A Strange [...]
[...] I favour the idea of Second Life as a story box: [...]
Gosh, now that is a lot to chew on. Bewildered and overwhelmed as I am, I’ll do what I’m best at, and pick out the part I like best (me) to comment on
It is interesting to find myself poster girl for the immersive, non dissociative use of the metaverse. Serves me right, maybe, seeing Chestnut Rau complained about much the same thing about my quote of her post. Maybe I should really start putting a « warning : Devil’s advocate » footnote on those paragraphs.
Ah well, I think I made my point that, yes, although I think this is a perfectly valid way to use the 3D metaverse, and the one that proves immersion has nothing to do whatsoever with the baggage you bring or do not want to bring from your First Life, too, it is a pretty poor, restricted way to use the immense potential this new world offers.It’s like you say : we’re witnessing a cultural change, not just the advent of new tools.
I’m very much looking forward to your next thoughts on this. Until then I’ll say ciao (to be explained shortly on my blog, as well as the rush I’m in).
I think it’s important to formulate what definition of ‘a virtual world’ you use, because Second Life is one of many, and community based virtual world – which I think is quite ironic, is one of applications for an immersive, multi-user, digital platform
I loved Coming of Age in Second Life, but because of the authors background in anthropology, it’s only natural his study focuses on the social relations and implications which doesn’t do entirely justice to the full potential of these platforms (which is obviously why the book is called Coming of Age in Second Life, and not coming of Age in Virtual Worlds), and is the point Christian argues in which I find him being spot on.
Other than that I feel you raise more than a few excellent points (I think there is a lot, a LOT, to the point you bring up about culture – which is exactly why I’ve been wanting to talk to you ‘face to face’) and give them great context here. Absolutely one of the most interesting articles I’ve red so far.
Digado – I agree, Christian IS spot on. EXCEPT for the part where he’s dismissive of 3D walled gardens. And sure I’m speaking partially through an anthropologists lens when I say that culture carries with it a deeper immersion, something that can keep a world running long after it might have faded off into the sunset. Look at Disney’s Magic Kingdom or Myst Online – both had cultures of sorts, and while the owners pulled the plugs there were still societies there. Really, what that points to is whether Linden can continue to make MONEY not whether the user base will run off en masse to openSim. Once a culture is established it can be pretty hard to uproot.
And Rheta – I don’t think you’re a poster girl for immersion, but I do have you on my wall as a towering thinker.
However, you are arguing in your post, whether for provocation or devil’s advocacy that SL provides escape, and I think the point of my post is that I agree with you, albeit from a slightly different angle. Virtual worlds are virtual worlds because of the disconnect they cause from the actual, Tom would say (I think, I’m sure projecting a lot here!), and because they allow us a new way to express sociality.
I partly disagree on this last point – is it a virtual world if we have 4 users at opposite ends of the grid spinning prims but never talking to each other? Sure – just a dull one.
But I start to come at this definition of virtual worlds in a different way and one that may be as relevant to brands as it is to users or platform owners or experience developers. And that is that virtual worlds allow sociality, but virtual worlds with “legs” will also create cultures within them. The cultures within them are only possible if the users of those worlds have some ability to craft their own artefacts, their own tools, otherwise it’s a social site sponsored by Coke or whatever. And sure, Coke can learn what kinds of tools most befit it as a cultural icon, but most brands want to be PART of a culture not help to build one.
But the gap between the virtual and the actual doesn’t need to arise solely because we escape our actual lives into a culture, world, place, avatar, etc. It arises because we participate in techne. As Tom says, we are ALREADY virtual and always have been – so if we’re escaping our virtual selves from the actual world into an avatar in virtual world, all you’ve really done is introduced recursion.
What this position allows is an augmentationist to also benefit from the gap. So long as the participant creates a gap between actual and virtual by their participant through an avatar, they have opened the thin wedge of possibility, and by participating in techne are participating not in epistime but extending human potential. Culture would thus seemingly arise in a grid full of augmentationists as much as a grid full of immersionists – the gap might be much tighter when you remove, say, anonymity, but it doesn’t mean that the gap disappears. Participation in techne gives rise to culture, virtuality gives rise to the gap, and it’s the strength of the culture (reinforced rather than ‘blurred’ by the loop between the actual and virtual) and the power of the tools that unleashes our potential.
It seems to me that this makes the tent wide enough for us all. Escape becomes another word for creating a more pronounced gap, and thus more pronounced potential, but it’s not a precondition to that gap occurring – the gap which Tom calls the source of our new possibilities for human being.
I’d also say that while this tent is wide enough to include both a tight coupling of the actual and the virtual, culture, immersion, escape – all that good stuff, it’s not quite wide enough to embrace simulation or 3D commerce. Those are applications of techne, but they’re not recursive.
A game is not recursive. It is not techne as a product of techne – it’s a game, it’s virtual, it can even be cultural. But it’s generally not recursive – it is not techne within it. (It’s interesting, as a side note, to to think about Spore in this context, because it will be recursive, it certainly will contain techne with it, and I wonder whether that doesn’t open up a discussion of whether you need avatars to be present simultaneously to consider it a virtual world, or in this case a virtual universe).
3D commerce is not recursive either – and while a gap can still be created through clever use of avatars, sociality, and perhaps even, to a degree, culture, it doesn’t generally open us up to greater potentials, that wonderful space where we have the tools within the technology itself.
The definition of “virtual world” is broad and wide. I’ll stick (for now, because it deserves far deeper thought, and maybe our discussion Digado!) with a virtual world being a place spawned by technology that is always on and where you have a sense of presence. Where stuff can change and evolve even when you log off.
And sure, that casts a wide net – games, casual game portals with little 2D avatars, or a 3D room on a Facebook profile. But what defines SOME virtual worlds, like Second Life, is that the tools for cultural expression reside with the users rather than the platform owners. Techne within techne is the source of greater possibility. Which would include the former Sims online, openSim, etc. and the subtle differences and power of one platform over another can then be parsed through the power of the tools, our ability to create a larger gap through avatar expression, the abilities for sociality, and the cultural contexts on which the platforms are predicated – cultural capitalism in the case of Second Life. What defines the OpenSim culture, I wonder – Second Life arose from concepts of property and ownership attached to the recursive techne. Is OpenSim’s defined by the lack of these concepts?
None of these things then guarantee a culture, but the way you tweak the buttons and the ‘engine’ will give rise to different cultural outcomes. Thus, my argument in one form or another to introduce greater tools to a platform like Second Life is predicated on the idea that I’d like to see the culture continue to thrive because of the ability for users to deepen their ability to express new cultural artefacts, whether those dividuals doing the expression are companies, scientists, casual users, or escapists.
Having said that, the ability for the culture to thrive and change and grow – for social norms to evolve, for potentials to be expanded, for the gap to be expanded because of the strange loop between the virtual and the actual, is hindered if the society is too closed. Expanding the tool set in a way that raises the barriers to entry doesn’t do anything to help the culture thrive, it just makes the culture insular, and so you end up with the paradoxical argument that we need both more advanced tools and a far simpler way to become a participant.
Just to clarify, I wrote that post about virtual worlds shrinking to “palm of your hand” in a rush, but I was actually speaking metaphorically. I think there will be extensions to mobile devices but I think it is too early to be working on a killer virtual world app in that realm.
No, I was referring to a conception (I sense) out there that vworlds must be these big things. Part of is the term “world”. I think we can take these technologies and concepts and make them smaller, easier, more focused.
However, I don’t believe it is a one-or-the-other thing. This industry will fragment into a lot of different approaches as it grows up and focuses on solutions to particular problems, rather than “here’s this neat thing, now go figure out what to do with it.”
If one thinks that the metaverse is somewhat separate from the Web, then one wants to see a huge overarching platform. But I believe that it will be very much part of the Web for quite a while.
oh and I didn’t get this line “(I kid you not, by the way, the Sheep did have a game in there).”
Now I’m all puzzled what you are referring to — we haven’t done anything with FlowPlay/OurWorld.
The much-anticipated game Spore will let you create creatures outside the game, in a separate program called the Spore Creature Creator. I think the creature creator is also built in to the game itself.
SL could have that – the ability to adjust your avatar while not being inworld. I think Linden Lab’s priorities are on getting the grid more stable, which means changing the whole underlying grid architecture, including how avatar data is stored and managed. Once that’s all sorted out, I imagine it would be straightforward to write a stand-alone program to edit your avatar in private, as it were.
@Troy – Spore will be a “game changer” for all kinds of reasons, including the creature editor, and especially because of the concept of procedurality, which I think SL actually supports, if you think about it, and with Mono might be able to execute!
Gif – thanks for the clarification, and while I agree with you, just as I agree with Christian’s predictions, I also think that if you don’t establish a deeper culture then it’s a game, or a diversion, but it’s harder to get the kind of stickiness that’s everyone’s dream. (Although, also don’t get me wrong – brands are a source of culture on their own – MTV is a culture, and even a micro MTV might have more staying power than some 45,000 prim OpenSim).
It’s not to say it can’t happen in a micro space, just that it might be harder – but frankly, I haven’t thought this through that much and defer to your far better judgment.
As for OurWorld….hmmm. Apologies, and I’ll correct the post. But have a look at the screen shot – Microsheep I thought was your new venture into smaller “casual games”!
[...] The Interface One received orthodoxy is to dumb down the interface, make it easier to use, nest the tools and buttons and menu items so that the new user is faced with only a few easy choices. The conventional wisdom is that someone gets to SL and they’re so confounded with choice that they leave instead of face the grueling tasks of figuring out how to fly, drive, walk, teleport, build, chat, IM, join groups, search the grid. [...]
Before I clutter up your comments with a lengthy response, I wanted to share with you a paper that has me thinking, drinking and rethinking entitled “Virtual Worlds Don’t Exist”.
You can find the pdf here: http://virtual-economy.org/files/Lehdonvirta-VWDE.pdf
Once you’ve had the chance to read it (and maybe you have but I doubt it because you would have likely referenced it) I’d love to continue this discussion in the context of “The Magic Circle”.
Yay! The magic circle!
Will do. And it’s interesting, Tom speaks a lot about the magic circle and blurring of actual and virtual and makes the point that for all the discussion of the “membrane” most people look at it the wrong way. However, I’ll reserve comments for now and thank you for the link!
What made us so special? What did we see in SL that others didn’t? We arrived in SL, persevered with it, learned the interface and ultimately (to varying degree) stayed – we did all that because we found reasons to do it.
Other people will do it too when they see good reason to. The orientation process could certainly be improved but it’s pretty incidental really – what people really need are more good reasons to stay.
Slight sidebar on the issue of IP protection: Interesting comment made by the founder of Atari: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/encryption-chip-will-end-piracy-open-markets-says-bushnell
If it will work against game piracy then could it work against content piracy within virtual worlds, which are using the same game technology? I know the common assumption is that we’ll all end up on one homogenised grid one day soon – but imagine if we don’t. Imagine Linden don’t knock down the walls of their (already profitable) garden…
Thanks for such a thoughtful and juicy post! Although I plead guilty to spending an inordinate amount of time analyzing and theorizing about this stuff, and enjoy this kind of discussion, the Virtual World that can be told is not the eternal Virtual World (to paraphrase Lao Tzu.)
So I wonder if our disagreements stem primarily from mistaking our subjective viewpoints for universal truth. It’s like the old folk tale of the blind men who were asked to describe an elephant through their experience of being next to one part of its body. The person who felt the trunk thought it was a snake. The man at the leg thought it was like a trunk and the unlucky soul who was standing under it’s backside thought it felt like shit.
Personally, I’m rooting for those with all points of view to go after their visions (assuming they aren’t in the take over the world category), because as you said, the tent is wide. Predictions of the future are interesting but almost always off-base. The coolest new things that emerge are unanticipated.
[...] worlds. He also – and this, to me, shows how few are the degrees of separation in the blogosphere – references my old blogfriend Think Artificial in a story about Second Life coming to the [...]
[...] May 2008 · No Comments I was over reading Dusan’s blog and a paper linked in its comments that sent me into a little mental spin. Normally I’d just [...]
[...] My Avatar is Not Me, or, Why Virtual Worlds Will Not Become Appliances My avatar is my interface to a culture, and in this case, the culture in which my avatar performs (just as I perform in the actual world within my own culture) has the unique property that it’s recursive and that its basis is techne – one in which the tool we’ve built in silicon and wire contains the tools within it. Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Bring Your Avatar Into RL with a 3-D PrinterHatred, Faith and Cultural Identity Posted in Second Life, Second Life Experience, Virtual worlds. Tags: Second Life. [...]
[...] of Culture I’m repeating myself – the premise that it’s culture that gives something longevity. Interaction, technology, [...]
[...] out of New York or Singapore these days – just don’t discount that the cultural industries are creeping every so slowly into the “game culture” of yesterday, and they might have one or two [...]
[...] something like this with the stunning Photosynth and you start to get the idea of where this is [...]
The interface should not crash twice in 5 minutes. It especially should not crash twice in 5 minutes after teleporting into a bug fix triage session related to the multi-crashing interface. Worse yet, after mentioning this in open chat, none of the 7-10 present Lindens expressed any sorrow/regret over their product performing poorly.
Yeah – see, there’s the interface discussion and then there’s the plumbing. And it doesn’t matter how you handle the interface, if the pipes are backed up you’ve got yourself one stinky mess.
So i look at those images and it makes me ask why would you want to do all that while sitting on a toilet (doing a doo-doo)?
I see it’s a good metaphor for the complexity of interface but isn’t it a better one for the current state of SL and beyond? I hear about all the plans and ambitions people have for virtual worlds and wonder how many of them pause to wonder WHY anyone would want to do any of it in a virtual world? Same goes for the 3D web too. It might be very pretty but does a screen full of flying interactive 3D gizmo-gadgets REALLY get information across better than a page of text?
It’s probably a necessary phase we’ll go thru’, but it seems to me we (yes, that includes me!) are currently trying to cram so much crap into SL most of which is always going to work better in RL. When there are people offering to let you make phone-calls from within SL we’ve lost the plot!
For Second Life and other virtual worlds to succeed we need to figure out what we can do in virtual worlds we CAN’T do anywhere else and what we can do in virtual worlds BETTER than we can do anywhere else.
Ironically enough, I’ve previously been asked if i sell toilets in SL
Eris – have you read the Laws of Simplicity by John Maeda? Really – it not only speaks to SL, to virtual worlds….well, it speaks to everything really, including my life which has definitely seen a feature creep of massive proportions.
What I like about it, however, is that first, it’s a simple read. And as someone who has 7 books on the go at once, it was such a nice little pause in my world of information overload. But second, he highlights that simplicity is mulit-faceted. It’s not just about having fewer buttons, it’s the interconnected execution of a few simple concepts (he came up with 10) and a few “keys” (he came up with 3).
So, for example, we often talk about “reduce” – get rid of buttons, reduce clutter, reduce unwanted features. But he also talks about (to randomly choose 2) emotion and differences as laws.
Emotion – more emotions are better than less. He brings in this law because he recognizes that sometimes “simple/clean” doesn’t hit an emotional note with some people. As he notes “there will always be die-hard modernists who refuse any object that is not white or black…(but) my mother finds the iPod entirely unattractive….When emotions are considered above everything else, don’t be afraid to add more ornamentation or layers of meaning….”Form follows function” gives way to the more emotional approach to design: “Feeling follows form”.
Which is to say that simplicity when based in modernism ignores that objects, environments and interfaces can create a feeling. (My feeling about the current client is: utilitarian, boring, drab, confusing, and not empowering).
The other law, again just choosing randomly, is “difference – or, complexity and simplicity need each other”. He sums it up by saying “The more complexity there is in the market, the more that something simpler stands out….That said, establishing a feeling of simplicity in design requires making complexity CONSCIOUSLY AVAILABLE in some explicit form.”
Thus, I suppose, the idea floating around that the menus within the client should be nested.
And P.S. – how come you didn’t take the toilet selling job? And have you checked out the Baron’s High Colonic Sale? They have some outhouses that are creative masterpieces.
[...] Second Life as a Pedagogical Tool (Dusan Writer’s Metaverse): [...]
I think i have some kind of genetic defect Dusan, a defect which manifests as a near-total inability to do what i’m told. It’s adolescent i know but presented with any book called The LAWS of Simplicity i think my only reason to read it would be to find creative ways to BREAK the aforementioned laws. I know, just a big old kid really…
As if to prove the point i don’t quite agree with your suggestion that ‘Modernism ignores that objects…create feeling’ or maybe i’d just put it another way – Modernist objects create their own feeling (and they don’t really care whether you like it or not!). I agree that the current SL interface is utilitarian but, to me, that’s one of its best qualities. It needs more thought and flair certainly but it should always maintain some utilitarian modesty, unlike Dazzle. I still think we should have a twin-track client for SL, but i’ve ranted on about that enough here already.
Your comments about the book remind me of that quote “Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication” which i’ve often seen attributed to Steve Jobs but (i think) more correctly belongs to Leonardo da Vinci. Makes sense that simplicity doesn’t necessarily mean stripping away all the buttons – it means making the device/UI simple to understand and that’s a more complex equation.
BTW, another nail you seem to have hit is the prospect of adding rendered shadows to SL. They appear to be beta testing it now and that infamous bitchy comment made on Tues’ by a Linden was in direct reference to its implementation: https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/2008-May/009930.html
You’re just one step ahead all the way Dusan, huh?
Eris I adore you. And by the way, it’s not my suggestion about modernism, it’s John’s…however, I did quote him so I’ll fall on my sword and admit I’m one of those folks who will probably find that Dazzle grows on them. I like steampunk. I like gritty, buttons, dials and whizzygigs. I also like the iPhone and I think the Oxo peeler is perhaps humanity’s greatest invention since the orrery.
However, based on the link you provided, there’s another aesthetic rolling along at the Lab.
Personally? I’d fire him on the spot. Has M Linden even started working yet? What the hell is going on over there?
Edit> Spoke too soon for M hath spoken.
Oooh, a Steampunk UI for SL, how i would love that…it could puff steam and blow smoke when u clicked on things and creak and groan as windows opened and closed with big metallic clangs…
I cannot live, WILL NOT live with Dazzle as it exists now and don’t even start-up the latest RC build until i’ve patched Dazzle away – I call it Sunblocking, not skinning!
Luckily I’m not the only one to feel this way : http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Viewer_Skins
…and this years Pulitzer Prize for Creative Wit & Sarcasm in a Blog goes to…
I’m going to have to call “bullshit” here, Dusan. That conversation took place on the SLDev list, and while I agree that the message that you extracted certainly has some *cough* shortcomings and is fraught with *face palm* one liners ripe for out of context stand up routines, it most certainly was not in the realm of community relations, it was on a *developers* mailing list.
I’ve spent a good deal of my life on developer mailing lists. The communication can be frank, reactive, often under stress and rarely is it about giving the end users roses and champagne, but more often about the next cool shiznet and how to get there. That’s a necessity if you are going to move a platform ahead.
That said, it must be matched with a healthier ballast of things like oh, stability of which we’d likely agree we are lacking.
Yeah – I see your point Grace, and I know the dev lists are rough and tumble…but this isn’t exclusive to that list lately – there’s been some mentor chat, some in-world responses to issues and a few other things that strike me as being indicative of a kind of hubris that I haven’t seen quite as pronounced in a while. Maybe they’re all stressed with a new boss, and maybe I’m choosing something because it’s the best way to illustrate a point.
Sure, it’s not meant to be “community relations” when you’re tossing stuff around ona dev list, but this shows how the decision process is made cowboy style. And while dev lists are for the code jockeys, sure, we’re in the adult world now – the combination of the Libertarian Tao of Linden is also taken to an arrogant extreme when put in the wrong hands.
I totally disagree that this is how you move the platform ahead. You move the platform ahead because you have a coherent vision to which the code is subservient.
You have Tao at the top and hubris at the front lines, and all that stands between is an ineffective JIRA. Although maybe M will give us all a hand and drag us out of decisions being made micro-style with no macro framework, by a bunch of folks who need to thump their chests a lot to push their own versions of the SL vision.
And rendered shadows would be wonderful. But shouldn’t they reassign this task to the back burner and put all hands on fixing the stability issues? Oops – sorry, under Tao you do what you wish to do, it’s how we advance the platform.
[...] even the most basic mechanics of outreach. Hubris and Complicity In all deference to Grace who took me to task for saying that the sarcasm and arrogance of a Linden on the SLDev list was all about the context [...]
“You move the platform ahead because you have a coherent vision to which the code is subservient.”
AMEN!!
Great post, Dusanwriter. Linden’s new social organizing philosophy is downright comfusing. Looking at things like SL5B with its crackdown on non-traditional cultures and the development of Bay City (What is that, by the way? A Linden WPA to help inworld builders through the Grid’s Great Depression? A Linden corporate reaction to the anarchic design principles of the mainland? Some Love Machiner’s “cool idea”?), it’s clear that they’re looking to change the Second Life grid…but what for? Better press? More corporate investment? Preparation for an IPO/buyout?
To be a fly on the wall at Linden Lab right now…
(And yeah, M Linden has his work cut out for him.)
what a shame… and even though we will have a much better build, it won’t be noticed. once again our community is pushed off to the side. even though we pay the same amount of money in terms of tier, sim fees, and everything else…. and the fact that a good number of us ARE age verified. its really disheartening to hear about things like this. what are they so afraid of? maybe if they had a GOOD PR person, they could be like, well shut up sky news, they’re all verified adults so piss off.
[...] welcome at SL5B. There’s already a lot written about it – fav title is by Dusan Writer ‘Lock Up Your Kids, Tie Up Your Kajira, It’s Time to Celebrate‘ – and I suggest you go and read on those blogs. I mainly want to say that I still stand [...]
[...] the meantime, I’ll join my voice to that of Ordinal Malaprop, Marianne McCann and Loki Eliot, Dusan Writer, Daniel Regenbogen, Erbo Evans and many, many others in saying how utterly disappointed I am in [...]
I hate to agree with Lindens on anything..but I think Grace called this right. I may agree with you that they should be working on stability issues rather than shadows..but..if they have a guy working on shadows..he should be doing it for current or future cards…not 3 gen old cards. I’m on a 7 series myself, so would not get the benefit…but I’ve gone up 3 generations of card since I’ve been inworld over the last 2 years to try (not always sucessfully) to get better performance…and will quite possibly be on an 8 series by the time this is implemented anyway…and even if I’m not…so what? I won’t see shadows. I’ve spent my whole gaming life chasing the latest game graphically…never getting closer than “just about enough card” for maybe 2 or 3 months. I’ve been chasing SL since I logged on. Doesn’t stop me from coming in..just makes me drool at the ad’s for the next gen card..^_^.
Now..you want to talk hubris…I think your column on the child avi SL5B builds points that out much better…^_^. They could have just accepted the builds (in PG regions), and made the content decisions based up the normal PG rules. That way they would not have felt they had to exclude any SL group. As for the dev above..he should be programming for the 10,000 series…^_^
“…but this isn’t exclusive to that list lately ”
You post excerpts are exclusively from that list, although your points may have been otherwise, I didn’t see any examples of such. Mentors are volunteers not Lindens; they represent or speak for Linden Lab. As for other things, you’d have to be more clear on that point for me to understand.
“You move the platform ahead because you have a coherent vision to which the code is subservient.”
In practical terms, if you don’t allow your technical team to have forward thinking space and freedom, call it “vision”, then they get complacent and stale.
So yes, please have some product management vision and a means by which to execute against that, but don’t expect to be ahead of the game if all you have to execute are code monkeys clattering away in the background waiting for the next work order.
It’s about balance; all product vision with no technical forward thinking lends itself to being dangerously ignorant and behind in the marketplace.
We should probably ask – “What percentage of development hours are going against innovation versus sustainment?” That might be a more meaningful conversation rather than exchanging mantras.
I think that it _is_ community relations, just within the dev and technical community – and while that community is quite robust and used to a bit of joshing and rough-and-tumble in this way, that particular statement made many people very cross.
I would rather people didn’t feel restricted when saying things in this sort of arena, honest communication saving a lot of time in development, but one always has to mind oneself a _bit_, just out of politeness. (And If it _wasn’t_ the result of frustration, or a sudden sarcastic whim, and does actually reflect opinion, then that is quite a serious issue.)
Then I’m glad we got the dialog going Grace and Shin, although sure, I’ll concede that I had the bad manners to take something which really wasn’t ever intended for the context in which I slammed it.
So, certainly – innovate from within, push the limits, and push the minimum spec needed to ‘enjoy the grid’ while you’re at it – Blue Mars is doing it, SL should prep for it, and I’ve been dreaming of rendered shadows and ambient occlusion from day one. I retract this as an example of community relations.
It really makes me stop and wonder, however, whether I should stop contributing “mantras” to this wider debate – far wiser minds than mine have obviously thought long and hard about it. I certainly appreciate the insight into management theory as well, Grace, and I think you’ve got something there about giving space to the team to push the limits.
Linden has done quite well with its approach, philosophy, attitude, coding gurus, and continues to be sustained by the thoughtful insight of the long time residents. So apologies because I really feel like I hit some sort of sore spot – and again, retract this as any sort of indication of Linden’s overall attitude, culture, or as a small signature of hubris – as you so rightly point out, this is what’s needed – innovation, pushing limits, pushing back and pushing the envelope.
I’ll try in the future to contribute more than a few mantras, really this blog is just random observations and feelings, but I should try to show respect for the coders and management style that’s brought us so far.
I appreciate your patience Grace and Shin, sometimes we need to stumble around a little looking for the root of our frustrations and often find them misplaced.
Side note: Nicholaz comments about this as well, with a link to the perspectives of others on the SL forums. A combination of anxiety over minimum specs, misunderstanding of where the project was in the development path, and folks who just didn’t understand that the Linden I pointed to in the first place was stressed out.
I actually owned Pong. lol I guess it was fun at the time!
Dusan, great blog.
I find it regrettable that LL has decided to snub three of its more significant and loyal constituencies by excluding them from SL5B: kid avis, gor and bdsm.
I find it doubly regrettable that LL has lumped the kids community – in my experience, one of the nicest, smartest and *least* sexual communities within SL – together with gor and bdsm. Not that I have any objection to the latter – or for that matter, anything else between consenting adults. To paraphrase Voltaire, “I may not like what you roleplay, but I will defend to the death your right to roleplay it.”
I simply resent the insinuation that the kid community is centered around sex, because that is just false. Furthermore, we are not child molesters. In fact, virtually everyone I know in the kid community really cares deeply about real kids (just look at our fundraising for real kid charities) and has zero tolerance for anyone who would hurt a RL kid. Nor do we abound in real kids hiding behind the kid avis. Our community is probably tougher than most of SL about reporting any real kids who sneak in.
Most of us just want to be young and happy again, to release our inner child, to re-experience our youth with the good stuff – and without the bad stuff, which for some of us was really bad. Particularly for gay people, our school years were usually somewhere between lonely and nightmarish. Is it anything to be ashamed of that we want to re-experience them in the way that we wish they had been? Does LL really feel they have to sweep this under the rug? Aren’t emotional needs (not to mention civil liberties) like these one of the business premises of “Second Life”?
Perhaps LL thinks they can make piles of money turning SL into a corporate virtual networking platform. If so, good luck. I guess you don’t need us. But right now, the kid community represents a fairly large base of loyal users who pay significant real money into SL. It is a shame that LL doesn’t have the backbone or vision to see that publicly advocating “roleplay rights” (i.e. virtual or fictional activities between consenting adults) is in their business interests.
As a note, Everett Linden replied on the Massively post, suggesting that Gor and BDSM exhibitors would not be banned – (Report from Massively)
It’s actually not entirely clear, but he does say:
> Child avatars are welcome at the celebration. However, we do respectfully decline the submissions we received to create exhibits for the event.
>
> Goreans, role-players, and members of the multitude of international communities are all welcome, and I hope you come.
which would suggest, since Goreans et al are mentioned in the same sentence as everyone else apart from child avs, that they are not banned from exhibiting.
[...] policy, volunteer Updated with more links: Rai Fargis – The “SL5B” PR Desaster Dusan Writer – Lock Up Your Kids, Tie Up Your Kajira, It’s Time to Celebrate So, sure, you can come aboard, and you can lock up your private island and keep the weirdos out – [...]
We’ll look for their clarification on Monday, I suppose Ordinal – and by the way, wonderful post on the subject, and I feel it important that you not give up on relatives however stubborn they might be.
@Russy – I’m not even sure anymore that they’re organized enough to be making decisions based on favouring corporate customers. I’m still waiting on an e-mail to billing after all (3.5 weeks and counting).
There is no “the community”.
People think differently about this.
I do, for example:
http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2008/06/slb5-not-censor.html
This isn’t about censorship or discrimination, it’s about the Lindens as a private company promoting what they wish. And I think they probably reflect the majority of people on the grid, who find the slavery and violence of Gor and BDSM distasteful and uncomfortable, and who are creeped out by kids on the adult grid, even though we’re told a million times (and we don’t frankly buy it) that these kids are never, ever sexualized.
Voltaire should have been asked whether he felt the creepiness of adults playing children or the slavery and violence of Gor and BDSM were what he intended by freedom of expression.
But…it’s not *about* freedom of expression, which has not been curtailed. That’s why I find all the protesting about this misguided. It’s about *not promoting what you don’t like*. The Lindens have chosen *not to promote what they don’t like*. Yes, a bitter lesson. They don’t like a lot of stuff. Me, for instance, on the forums. Goreans in the birthday build, for instance. And that’s their right, as a private company on their servers.
What we can only hope to do is to morally shape them, not legally complain about censorship or discrimination, which are not the case here. We can try to get them to be more inclusive or not. In this case, I think the Lindens have made a prudent and civilized policy not to let minority lifestylers fill up the public space with creepy and shocking and violent stuff, and that’s ok. They haven’t banned it; they’ve said they don’t wish to promote it.
Prok, you are wrong on more than one account. If you didn’t see the exhibits by the kids community before, you have been blind – they were there from the first SL birthday celebration. Last year amongst others things with a giant sandcastle. Oh and a picture exhibition about being a kid avatar.
Now, this year the celebrations are all under the banner of diversity, LL themselfs called for the communities und cultures to participate and contribute, to present themselfs. Now, at the very last moment, when stuff already was at least partly build and the talks were about how and where to setup – they got told: “Oh, not you, you are not included.”
This is a cowardly decision – and a shame that LL gives away the opportunity to conter the attacks from wannabe-journalists and instead choses to punish its paying customers.
–
Kids5B – LL doesn’t want us to present ourselfs at the offical party – we will do our own!
The guy is of course right to do an experimental feature for hardware that is easiest to support it. But what crossed people is that he makes gives the impression that hardware which most people consider up to date (not razor cutting edge though) is hopelessly backwards (my own machine would fall into this category and calling a graphics card, which had cost me $150 just a year ago “obsolete” isn’t going to make him friends).
The other thing is, as I’ve pointed out in my blog, is that from past experience, people extrapolate what happens from the point when somewhere in LL someone comes up with a new “this is something we’re working on” thing.
With a different company (one with a different track record of how to implement innovations) and a different attitude (even his very first announcement and call for feedback came with some preemptive “get to grips” comments) an announcement like this would have had the guy covered in rose petals.
With LL however, there is a reason that people are quick to draw torches and pitchforks … even if it’s just bad communication and a bad-day, the communication quirks have quite a history with the Lab.
Hear, hear! Great post and lots of great comments. I could care less about the specific LL celebration, but the hypocrisy and the precedents for the future of virtual worlds freedom of expression and tolerance toward others is at stake
1) There is nothing inherently wrong with choosing a kid avatar to express one’s inner child, to find a place to escape the adult responsibilities of RL.
2) People that look at kid avatars and automatically assume the worse are likely projecting their own dark and repressed tendencies. They are the ones we need to keep an eye on. o.O
[...] Why graft collaboration onto Second Life when IBM is slowly grafting it on to Lotus: [...]
Prok – thanks for the post, and I’ve responded with a longer one of my own. I do feel a little confused – because on the one hand you deride these particular forms of freedom of expression, and on the other say that it’s not about that anyways. You comment on ‘creepiness’ but don’t allow a response back on that point because you instead say that it’s not about the content it’s about the right of the Lab to exclude what they wish.
You imply that this wish to exclude these things might be because these things are creepy, shocking and violent but protect yourself in the mantle of a commercial entity’s right to decide.
I have no quibble with the Linden’s right to do what they want, and promote how they wish. But your implication is that they’ve made this decision to set a tone for what kind of community they want to represent, and that kids and Gor and BDSM is too “creepy, shocking and violent”. But first, these are PG sims we’re talking about, and second, these are multi billion dollar market segments.
This leaves us with the conclusion that they have the right to make BAD decisions as well. Which is true, but their bad decisions aren’t because of a FIC, their bad decisions are because they don’t really know WHO they’re marketing to, don’t understand the competition, and don’t really know what it means to retain customers through community relations.
So in the end, sure, they can do what they want. But don’t imply that they’re doing it because they’re sanitizing us from creepiness as sound business practice. There’s nothing sound about it.
What we can probably agree on is they don’t run their operations very well, market poorly, and have sub-optimal communication skills. We also agree that we as a community shouldn’t rely on the Lindens for anything more than billing, the ability to log in (usually), and an occasional upgrade or two followed by endless patches.
I really enjoyed reading this article. Thanks.
Very nice piece. The idea I like best is for each community in SL (each resident in SL) to celebrate the birthday however they like, with their own things, and some shared and commonly-administered way to communicate about who’s doing what. That’d be great, and clearly it would include all the communities and residents that wanted to put the effort into it.
LL isn’t keeping this from happening, and I’m glad to see that the child-AV folks will be having birthday celebrations of their own. But it does bother me that LL will be using their resources, including my membership and tier fees, to do an Official birthday celebration that’s selective, and that excludes certain groups (and especially because it excludes them from unstated reasons).
This is entirely within LL’s legal rights, of course; they’re a private business. But all sorts of things that are within someone’s legal rights are a bad idea, a sad thing, a mistake, a dumb thing; and I’m quite sure that having an Official birthday celebration that excludes the child-AV folks (and anyone else of similar good intent) is one of those dumb mistakes…
Tx for the well-thought-out posting, and the well-chose examples.
[...] Creativity is on the scene again. Hardly that one JIRA will help some people to realize what Dusan Writer put so well: you’d better realize that this IS the Wild West, and it’s that way for a reason – [...]
Linden needs to retain the users it has, and it’s not doing such a great job of that
It’s more that the competition is doing a great job of that.
I wouldn’t be in SL anymore if there was a solid alternative. What is there currently? There.com? Utter crap. OpenGrid? I want to try it, but it doesn’t work properly yet for me. Too experimental still. World of Warcraft? I’m not interested in hacking and slashing through monsters 18 hours a day just to get to level 70 and be accepted into the community.
Damen – I agree. Maybe Blue Mars will fit the bill. Or RealXtend and OpenSim will get legs. I actually think, however, that it’s not so much competition from other virtual worlds following similar models with moderate improvements in technology, but rather completely new platforms and approaches that’s the biggest threat to SL.
It’s not just competing with other virtual worlds that matters, it’s competing for attention. For content creators, it’s competing with the myriad 3D development tools that are now nearly free, and easy to use. It’s competition for the talent and desire and will of the people who create this “World of Imagination” because without those talents, no matter how misaligned their prims, you don’t have much of a world. For immersionists, role-players, students, teachers, and business it’s competing for attention against games, and Facebook, Twitter, Moodle, Jazz and Google.
I don’t see masses running off to set up a homestead on OpenSim – sure, some will, but until it’s all one big integrated mess (I shudder to even mention open source, it will be even more chaotic than what we have now, as evidenced by all the mini grids popping up). Why would I go through this all over again? Learning to build, script, texture, animate with some new tool set that will give me pretty much what disappointed me the first time around?
I’m more likely to go to Spore when it comes out and let IT suck up 100s of hours of my life. Or I’m more likely to do what Gif at ESC says and surf the Web and stumble across a lot of little mini worlds, corporate things, casual games – enter Metaplace, another source of competition for my time and what little talent I can offer.
So sure, there’s no major Second Life alternative right now if you mean a 3D make-it-yourself Grid, but there are more and more 3D apps, ways to make things, ways to contribute if you have a bit of talent, and emerging communities to support you, and maybe even turn a profit doing it.
And there are more and more things competing for my attention if I just wanna game.
So you’re right, Daman, the competition is nibbling at their heels and their response? Prok can call it defense against “repulsive” communities, but I call it biting the hand that feeds you.
Well thats the point isn’t it Daman? The continious mismanagement by LL and kick the community in the face is something that seems to have become somewhat of a game. The next thing you know you have a ‘public outcry’ dominating the blogosphere again, but we already know the outcome.
LL is going to do some half assed clarification on copyright violation (gor) and earlier rulings (keeping SL safe together) banning violence in some half assed manner, and the community will be furious, and then… that is it. No one leaves, no one changes a thing, LL will continue to think of the community as something creating numbers to present to the corporate industry (300 gazillion user generated content objects created!)
So is it strategy or stupidity – and who is using who? Afterall, controversy is attention for both the blogs and SL.
SAD = Senseless and Dysfunctional
Jeez, I thought everyone knew that acronym…
Haha …. kind of the “bad press is better than no press” theory Digado?
But yeah – same old same old. Dependence on the Lindens is, well, co-dependence I suppose, an abusive relationship? Something like that. Run your own show, think of them as a utility and take it from there.
Great article, Dusan. Thank you.
The perfect description of Linden Lab™, Eris.
[...] EA is making no promises, this picks up on earlier comments at a European 3D convention that EA sees the future in both micro-transactions and user-generated [...]
As much as I don’t care for the corporatization of SL, I can’t blame the companies for what’s been described. The wrong employee, doing the wrong thing inworld, could REALLY hurt the employer on the PR and legal liability front.
What kills me is that this approach stymies the creative juices of their employees. There are CREATIVE minds on these staffs, who see the rampant creativity around the grid and want to contribute. Yes, I appreciate that employees should be doing company work on company time. What if, in the Google mode of 20% creative time, an employee discovers something through scripting and prim twisting that benefits the company?
Sigh.
[...] and games. And there you have it – everything you’re seeing in applications ranging from Scenecaster to Vivaty to [...]
Middle school? Are all those students 18+?
[...] the Lindens in their infinite wisdom are not going to apologize for it, and they’re not going to pander to people who think a 3 [...]
Wow, Dusan, what a great write-up.
I want to rework the old adage –
“Fast, Good, Cheap: Pick Two”
for this context as something like:
“Imagination, Corporate Profit, Freedom: Pick Two”
Daman – I I’m not mistaken, the project is on the Teen Grid. So no, <18.
Ah, alright. I must have missed that in the article. Thanks for the clarification. I just was a bit surprised because in my country, middle school means anyone between 12 and 14.
Really, the relevant issue is the tone. I don’t think anyone would argue with the technical aspect of what was said. By the time rendered shadows are ready for prime-time, even *I’ll* be on something newer than the 5500 FX I’m on now, and, let’s face it: do you really want your older card to be doing MORE work and being SLOWER? Second Life is slow enough as-is, usually. It’s the tone with which it was said.
Dusan,
It doesn’t matter what sort of avatar you have, everyone interested can submit builds to the Birthday Celebration.
If any submissions aren’t accepted it’ll be because they are too “adult” in nature, not because of the looks of the avatar.
As someone involved in the original brainstorming about adding to the celebration, I assure you that we’re trying to make it more fun and valuable for everyone, full stop.
Thanks,
– Katt Linden
I don’t think that they have clarifies anything.
First the word was kids couldn’t participate.
Then that was “clarified” to mean they could attend but any submissions would be rejected,
Then that was further “clarified” to mean that kids could submit builds, but it couldn’t refer to the kids community in anyway.
Now, the “clarification” is anyone can submit a build as long as it’s PG. Which is all well and good, but the re-wording doesn’t change anything. Just the same thing only worded differently to make it more palatable and try to stem the controversy.
Sorry I don’t buy it.
Tomas
I appreciate the clarification Katt…and it’s nice to see a Linden contribute outside of the LL blog! That means a lot, and the outreach is a really wonderful sign of listening and attempting to clarify, to bring some light to what became a very murky situation.
I’m afraid the comment Tomas made, and perhaps my own slant – is that while it’s good that you’ve clarified, and good that you’re reiterating your desire for the full participation of the community, there’s some skepticism which was probably avoidable. For the sake of moving forward however, I really do accept your assurance, Katt.
I also understand that you do reserve the right to review the applications before you accept them – but the skepticism will be confirmed if there isn’t a pretty valid reason for excluding someone.
I also think that the ’split’ between the two types of representations of the community isn’t such a bad idea either. The Grid is meant to embrace everyone – the power of a virtual world isn’t contained to immersionists or augmentationists it’s a full range, a spectrum – whoever can make something of the tools should be welcome to. However, while this is articulated more globally, I think sometimes mixed signals are sent to the community.
Katt – please stop by more often…or if not here, elsewhere…it really is a different level of engagement than what is often perceived as the “blog and hide” approach that’s sometimes taken on the main site.
OK…now having said all THAT….proof in the pudding and so on…let the celebration preparations begin, wherever you plan to hold them, whether at the official event, your own, or on OpenSim
I agree Ky….and while Grace does a persuasive job talking about coding culture, I actually think if the overall culture of the Lab was a little more sensitive to the community I would have seen this as a sad, stressy moment for some poor coder rather than a marker of a deeper corporate tone.
My original post was never about the chip set discussion. It was about tone, community relations, and pointed out the sarcasm, mocking, and arrogance. Sure, these are all common in coder culture, but as other more “code-y” people have pointed out, it goes hand in hand with a wider disenchantment with their approach to community building, whether on SLDev or elsewhere.
While Grace is right – coders can be cowboys, and it’s admirable of her to point that out, the more I’ve thought about it and read the commentary (especially over on the forums) the more I think that her initial call of “bullshit” should be reconsidered.
It seems the reaction of Kids5B will be to proceed with our project and apply with it for the official celebrations. We would set up an info point, maybe with a 3d sculpty model of our SIMs and with staff introducing it. And a TP to our SIMs (where we would invite LL to have a promo place and a TP back to the official SL5B SIMs).
On behalf of many kid avatars, I’d like to thank all who supported us during these chaotic days. It was extremely encouraging to see that we are not alone in this.
[...] Linden Lab® will allow builds in the names of the PG kids groups such as SLC and BSSL. This comment by Katt Linden on Dusan Writer’s Metaverse’s blog post Linden Regroups and the Kids Are In. On [...]
[...] recently talked about the Sacred Cows of Second Life and whether they needed some debunking. One of them was the [...]
I would like to clarify certain aspects of the rules before I participate:
“There are no rules for what should or should not be included in the viewer. However, nothing should be added that is not possible with the current viewer”
- This criteria severely limits what is possible in terms of UI redesign.
A better rule might be “Nothing should be added that is not properly doable without involving changes to the SL servers or any major hardware changes client-side.” A good client viewer in SL is, after all, little more than a glorified presentation layer hooked to a communications stack. Also: LL would be less likely to welcome a proposed change to both viewer and server unless there was reason to expect that the benefits of doing so outweighed the impact of doing so.
Would that rule be closer to the spirit of what you originally intended, Dusan?
Yes Patchouli it is the spirit of what was originally intended, and I had that comment separately via e-mail as well. It was my definitely my intention that what we’re trying to avoid are designs that would require server-side changes but that the current viewer is not the baseline for what the designs should “do”.
So: “Nothing should be added that would require changes to the SL servers or major changes to the current client-side hardware specifications.”
Thanks Patchouli and others who clarified this for me – it was certainly the intent not to limit the imagination! We’re trying to avoid, however, needing Linden to rewrite the server code – they have enough on their plates trying to kick the asset server into shape.
(I wouldn’t limit comment in accompanying notes, by the way, along the lines of “This design would be scalable IF the Lindens were to (fill in blank)”)
Dusan, while I share your excitement for the idea of flash based virtual worlds … and 3D spaces you can embed into web pages … Cathay Pacific’s cabin tour is a good example why this idea has to be applied with a lot of care.
The performance is pure horror on my 2 yr old Windows system (which runs SL perfectly). Movements are erratic and you have to concentrate heavily on what the screen does, when you move the mouse. There is no avatar with which to identify myself. There was not even a second where I “felt inside” the plane.
This might be technologically “cool”, but I don’t see much sense in it. Actually I expect that an aging technology like Quicktime3D or something similar would convey a much better impression of the actual looks within a Cathay Pacific plane.
Maybe it will get better with Flash 10 and GPU support. Lets hope for that …
Markus – Good points, although I don’t entirely mean to use this as an example of a ‘virtual world’ but rather the 3D Internet – and sure, subtle difference, but I think there are different facets of the “Metaverse” – avatars, 3D worlds (or micro worlds), 3D visualization, etc. Certainly Papervision isn’t ready for prime time when it comes to giving an experience of presence…in fact, as you point out, I’m not entirely sure it’s ready for prime time for certain visualizations because many of the apps you see using the platform could just as easily be done with clever use of Flash and, as you say, QuickTime or maybe Virtools (problem being the plug-in).
Flash 10 will unleash a whole new generation of approaches, there’s no question. What’s important about Papervision is its demonstration of ‘3D visualization’ without a client, ubiquity, etc. However, it’s just one thread in a much wider ecology of 3D apps and approaches.
So, with a certain inevitability, everything’s soon to be fair game?
Some day soon just take any inventory item from SL’s main grid into OpenSim, which has no permissions system, and make it your own – then take it back into SL for fun and profit?
If/when that becomes possible doesn’t it open up yet another can of IP worms? If Linden’s T&C’s honour the creators IP but also allow Linden to make use of any inworld item, then don’t Linden seem to claim some kind of ownership of every Inventory item? Wouldn’t moving inventory from Linden’s grid to another automatically be classed as content theft or piracy? Would Linden take action or ignore it?
Interesting, but it sounds like quite an unfair game to me…
Well…yeah….that’s the worry right? It’s like those pipelines I’ve pointed out before where you can “port” your builds in SL onto other platforms. Supposedly, you can only do this with items you own, but really, a good work-up of 3D Print Screen or OGLE will have you covered eventually.
However, I’m not entirely sure that’s what Zha means in the post:
“We’re all Ruth, because we’re not yet syncing the agents with openSim inventory yet. That’s just a small matter of programming… (Well, that’s what we programmers always say.) We have no inventory, and we’re stuck on the single region. But.. It’s a very nice first step.”
It might be more along the IBM model – what is made behind the firewall, stays behind the firewall. (Hmm…sounds like a slogan for Las Vegas, who knows WHAT is going on over on those IBM sims anyways – they’re all MAD CRAZY I tell you!)
But, the idea of at least being able to move your avatar effortlessly around even if they leave their inventory behind but “resynch” to the inventory on the other grid is promising. Universally portable avatars with locked off inventory – I guess that’s the dream, but sure, Eris, also think it’s a few code lines away from “and bring your inventory too”.
I have some doubts about the idea of a universal grid which we (as avatars) traverse effortlessly – and it’s not just the technical challenge it presents.
It’s touted as a logical next step, and technically maybe it is, but my question would be what’s in it for the companies that would be footing the (considerable) bills? Why would they buy their own branded virtual world if all its content can walk out the virtual doors and onto someone else’s grid? On the other hand what’s the point of another ‘user-created’ grid when SL already does that and all the content is portable and headed your way for free anyway?
To be a significant player you’d have to offer something different or better but portable content means you can do neither because whatever exists on one grid can move onto another. I guess you could compete by offering better build tools but then you’re competing against the plethora of existing 3D app’s – assuming importing external content gets easier. That leaves one last option – compete by being cheaper. Cheaper than Open Source? Good luck with that…
A universal grid is a nice developer’s dream, but, at the moment, I can’t see who’s going to pay for it – or why anyone would?
Yeah….I’m with you. The next breakthrough isn’t a world that’s an incremental improvement, or open source, it’s something a lot deeper than that.
This could help explain why the Lindens got into the land development business with Bay City…they have to present a compelling reason for the continued viability of the Second Life main grid…especially as OpenSim grids are so darned cheap.
Eris,
if you are concerned about grids, permission systems and IP issues, you simply should attend AWG meetings and discussions and read previous transcripts. I’d say that the issues you’re talking about are being addressed.
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Architecture_Working_Group
Yup Dusan, and whatever the next seismic shift is, it’s almost certainly going to be something we haven’t thought of yet – which is the fun of it!
Yup Morris, I think you’re probably right – plus there are rumours that Linden want to start zoning SL. Sounds like a good idea as long as they don’t try to retrofit zoning onto existing mainland – there should always be unrestricted areas too, that’s another part of the fun.
Personally, I’d love to see a mainland continent made up from high spec’ sims. Instead of having 4 sims per CPU like OpenSpaces, couldn’t we flip that and have 1 sim per 4 CPU’s, would that work? So we could have regions capable of hosting say 100+ avatars without collapse. Then make that continent a zone for clubs, music venues, galleries or shopping – a sort-of Manhattan for Second Life! Imagine how much they would get for those parcels!
Thnx for the link Opensource, it’s certainly a fascinating area. Personally, I think I’ve become reconciled to the fact that future virtual worlds won’t have decent IP protection, I’ve heard too many dev’s saying it’s too difficult (uhu…) and that there are laws to deal with that kind of thing. Of course laws tend to work best in areas where there’s enough money to pay lawyers, so that pretty much rules out your average micro-economy.
The thing which does keep occurring to me is…imagine if Microsoft or Apple owned the working(ish) fundamentals of a new virtual world platform – you think their first reaction would be to open source it?
I’m not suggesting that corporate greed is the answer for virtual worlds but Linden sometimes seem to be headed down an equally myopic but opposite route with some kind of happy-clappy Googlicious Californian Tao ideology blinding them to the possibilities, both commercial and philanthropic, they actually have.
[...] announcement that Google Earth would be moving to a browser seemed to elicit collective silence from the virtual world industry – while last September, [...]
[...] be moving to a browser seemed to elicit collective silence from the virtual world industry – while last September, everyone was foaming with anticipation about Google secretly planning a Virtual Google that would [...]
[...] through a serious, um, serious gaming initiative, and their partnerships with 3DVIA, their purchase of Caligari, and the previews of Photosynth put them in the middle of the battle for 3D visualization and by [...]
Wow, this is great Dusan! Both what papervision3d can do AND how you collected so many cool examples and tutorials in one place.
Now I just wish I had the artistic and technical skills to be able to learn to use if effectively!
Cheers, Chimera
[...] leemos en dusan writer’s metaverse ya es posible realizar teleports entre Open Sim y Second [...]
OK, Mr Clever Mouth, it’s the Naughty-Step for you i think…
From what i have read so far the SL iphone thing seems interesting as i am searching for the complexity of communication in systems integration project. i would be glad if anyone can throw more light on this snd what it stands for.
thanks,
Yemi
Thanks for doing this contest, Dusan
You’re right, we shouldn’t wait for Linden Lab to do what we need them to do, when we were given the tools to do it on our own!…
But on the other hand, having Linden Lab officially endorse such an initiative (or at least promote it!) wouldn’t hurt, either
It’s in their best interest anyway…
Hmmm … it might not be illegal in most jurisdictions (avatars usually do no enjoy the same rights and privacy protection, that the humans behind them do enjoy), the collection of such data isn’t exactly good business practice especially, if you do not announce it to your visitors.
Additionally, for most purposes easily imaginable to me, it is not necessary to collect this kind of data. It might be desirable to recognize the fact, that the same avatar visits your location again and again. Gathering data about the age distribution or verified status of visitors is certainly interesting information, too. But all of this information can be provided by using anonymous profiles, too, without invading resident’s privacy.
Many thanks Gwyn, and great point. I won’t speak on behalf of the Lab but two things: one, I did let them know through channels that Hamlet Au suggested. But second, I was pleasantly surprised that someone in the usability group contacted me without being aware of my message, and I’ve had nothing but positive feedback from the Lindens.
Again, I won’t speak on their behalf but I think they’ll be very supportive – they’re as keen and excited to see what residents come up with as I am!
Markus – I’m not so sure on that interpretation of the law. While it’s still early days I think there’s sufficient legal grounds to consider data related to an avatar equivalent to data related to a person. Just as collecting e-mail addresses which may not confer a connection to personally identifiable information is, on its own, personally identifiable, so too it could be argued that avatars are personally identifiable proxies for identity, regardless of the anonymity conferred by the platform. But sure…early days.
Now, in all fairness to Clever Zebra, they are running an open source business ‘aggregation’ service. Their model is that they give items for free – and they’re pretty significant items (and while very corporate looking and so on, their auditoriums and galleria are really well executed). By giving them for free, they’re hoping to be able to offer services. Free includes events, seminars, and educational activities.
So, I see it as a fair trade-off: if you’d like items at no charge, or if you’d like to attend no cost exhibitions, in return you allow them to collect information on your presence and they earn the right to contact you to discuss collateral services. What’s missing from the equation, however, is the ability to opt-in or be notified.
And instead of picking on Clever Zebra, I should note that the service they were using was Mechanized Life, which does not track exclusively for Clever Zebra. I have no idea what their install base is but I’m fairly sure that CZ isn’t the only sim on the grid capturing this kind of information.
So the question is, should avatar monitoring devices be allowed? Should there be an opt-in or notification policy? Does any of this break the TOS? Do avatars have less rights to privacy and surveillance? Or, as has been argued elsewhere on this blog, is surveillance just the “way it is” and we should learn to live with it?
Sorry, Dusan, I did not want to imply, that there are clear laws denying “avatars” any privacy. It is just shaky ground and there have not been any final court decisions or explicit laws covering this issue.
And I certainly did not want to attack Clever Zebra.
All I wanted to say is basically:
(1) I consider it good business practice to inform visitors, when I collect “personal” data about them that allows me to track them down individually.
(2) There are better ways to collect usage data for an installation which works anonymously. Some of the more innovative advertising networks on the web work that way. It is not rocket science. No one needs to store my name or IP address to identify “uniques” for his website (or island in SL) example – not even my avatars name.
Absolutely Markus – and sorry if I sounded defensive.
I really did take your comments in the spirit they were intended – and it’s a provocative question about avatar “rights”.
I’d be curious if Mechanized Life has any thoughts on this. I should check to see if they have a posted privacy policy.
*Adds to list of things to do.*
[...] to everyone who’s expressed an interest in my Second Life user interface design contest. It’s really exciting to know that a few people are engaged in thinking about solutions to [...]
Hmmm…it’s probably Interface for the Second Life(R) World Contest.
Maybe we can have a contest for the name of the contest!
*snicker
Hi – That is what we are focused on for the conference on virtual worlds and MMOs in London at the Convention 9-10th July. Bruce Joy is joining us as is Sun and a number of other platform developers and some key MMO games developers.There is a separate serious games conf and web 2.0 Take a look at http://www.viswebconvention.com
Cheers, Martine
p.s early bird ends 15th June
[...] the user interface is still daunting (but private initiatives like the one sponsored by Dusan Writer might soon create an easy-to-use interface). And of course, grid stability continues to plague us, [...]
My avatar is not a kid.
It is a figment of my imagination.
Perhaps it is my whim that my avatar is an Imp, a mythical creature that appears childlike, yet is ancient beyond the ken of the dim lights in the weak, putrid head-meat of slack-jawed yokels that follow the likes of Mark Kirk’s attention whoring.
Second Life is a playground of imagination for adults. Condemning the imaginations of people is more heinous than burning libraries with the books, authors, and readers still inside.
Without looking up the licensing, I believe the Linden Labs code the RealXtend viewer is based on “does” require them to release the code as GPL in the distribution itself or a clear way to get at that current source code.
This is very cool. I was hoping that LL would create an SLLite version for non-builders for a while, but looks like this idea was never popular there. Hopefully, this approach will encourage one to emerge. I think the SLLite version should be a bit more than hiding advanced menu items obviously. Good luck!
Wow Pais! Putrid head-meat.
Haha sorry, I know it was said with the appropriate level of disgust and passion, but I still got a nice chuckle from your very vivid word choices.
Seriously, though, you’re dead on. Our avatars are knowledge. Our avatars are expression. I don’t understand the narrow-minded amongst the community who would call them creepy, dangerous or want to purge the grid of them – as you point out, no different than supporting book burning. What an apt parallel.
[...] debate about the integration of realXtend code in OpenSim sparked off by Justin Clark-Casey and Dusan Writer indicates. But another good friend – an astute virtual world developer/evangelist, Peter Quirk, [...]
Thanks for the review of some of the symposium’s main sentiments. So why isn’t anyone talking about Activeworlds, I wonder? Or are they? I haven’t looked at Wonderland yet, but we’re not in a position to build something from scratch, so I tend to not pay much attention to those projects yet.
I’m extremely curious to see what the future holds for SL as more and more folks discontinue their premium accounts and head to the virtual frontier.
Without a doubt, the NPIRL folks get Second Life; so do other artistic folk like Chouchou, who create, not recreate, with the environment. It’s the difference between an expressive and an additive approach to a medium. But you can’t be expressive without basic skills and this is where I think many educators miss something important. These basic skills consist of a configuration of 3D modeling, scripting, some kind of design, art, architecture, etc; they’re not a skill set many instructors or college students have or necessarily need or want to have.
Where am I going with this? Give a kid drum sticks and he’ll bang on everything. Is he a drummer? Not in my book. Coloring books, paint by numbers, piano lessons, art class don’t trump creativity, they make it a whole lot more meaningful. Where there weren’t recreations of status quo kinds of pedagogies, there were attempts to posit that creative expression alone was a valid use of SL.
This isn’t one rainy day after school in 3rd grade.
Throwing learners in at the deep end is bound to produce casualties. We’ve seen it; students reporting frustrating experiences and wondering what building an X has to do with learning Y. The other casualty I notice is a sense of “entitled creativity” in our culture, one that feeds off of a rather dumbed down and commodified sensibility of artistic expression. If we’re going to involve students in expressive technologies, then we do them a disservice to not enable them to use them as such.
Suzanne – Really wonderful points. And while I agree with you that there needs to be the proper respect for the learning curve required of students, I’m not sure that the lessons to be drawn from Chouchou (I almost mentioned Chouchou, we’re on the same wavelength in who has talent!) and others are entirely related to how the medium can be used for expression.
A few things I’d love to see happen in SL:
- An artistic commons, a group of residents who would be willing to team up with educators, maybe for free and the fame, maybe for a few Lindens – most schools can’t afford a lot, but you’d have I think a fairly deep source of creative talent willing to help improve the experience of SL.
- Supplement that with a crowdsourcing Web site for build and tools. A teacher wants to demo a particular concept, crowdsource the demo.
- Establish a best practices databank that not only takes the learnings from teachers, but from others as well. You could have one Linden (or a private company or individual, whatever) whose job is to look at work in world and help translate it to education methodologies. So, for example, you might look at the work that Keystone is doing with Studio Wikitecture, and create an “education packet” out of it for teachers, with decent documentation, instructions on modifying, etc.
- Develop a script library, especially around things like physics, procedural objects, and games. Think of the number of in-world games, treasure hunts, etc. – many of these scripts and objects could be adopted easily for student activities. But it’s tough to track them down, and it’s tougher still to know how to adapt them.
Much like Clever Zebra is trying to do for corporate builds, the idea of a ‘commons’ for learning objects, scripts, and lessons learned from the best artists and scripters would go a long way, I think. It’s not to say that these resources aren’t available within the NMC or through the SLEd lists and elsewhere, but it would go a long way to create an “NPIRL” for education don’t you think?
Create objects and learning interactions with a bit of awe to them, make it so that teachers and students don’t need to learn to build to take advantage of all the talent, objects and scripts that already exist – and if you really want it to sing, integrate it with the work the SLoodle folks were doing.
Hmmm.
I have a spare sim or two. Maybe I should just start it myself. Haha.
Thanks for the great feedback.
Dusan, I do think there may be some of the “been there and done that” among the most techie of educators. They were the early adopters and now are looking for new challenges. But as you said, this is just my impression from overhearing conversations and some presentations.
The shape that education should take in SL is hotly contested. This is even more true in RL education where active learning and social learning paradigms go head to head with more traditional philosophies. I agree with you that it’s important to understand and explore SL and not camp within a locked down space. I’ve been going to sims and events and meeting a wide spectrum of fascinating residents for several months. I think we (a very small cadre at my university) are about to embark on a small experiment. I am very much in the “need for reform” camp of science educators, and I have come to view SL as a place for immersive and transformative experiences and relationship for faculty and teachers rather than for students. Interacting collaborating with educators from around the world can broaden perspectives and open minds–at least that’s the experiment I’d like to try.
I wonder if you have met the organizers of the SLCC–educators all, and three of the most creative thinkers about education in SL that you will find. I expect that one or more of them are at the NMC Conference and maybe presenting. Ann Enigma/Hilary Mason is a long-time resident of SL, and I greatly admire her work.
I also agree that more conversations and interactions among educators and other creative residents is well worth facilitating. The constructivist philosophy of education focuses on student construction of their own knowledge by active participation. Rather than having builds done for them, I’d like to see an education themed and immersive sim created by collaboration among builders, educators and students. I even had what I thought was an inspired theme picked out around the time of Life 2.0. Since you seem to have a sim or two to spare, I’ll tell you about it sometime if we meet up “in world.”
I’d imagine the issue of geography refers to the complexity added to legal situations, where the virtual world itself is devoid of any jurisdiction per se. In a case such as being an SL employee, I could easily imagine lawyers keeping themselves amused for a long while, arguing over what degrees of jurisdiction apply, based on the location of SL’s incorporation, the employer’s location, and that of the employee, all of which might conceivably be on different continents.
One might similarly consider land ownership, governed by laws all around the world, but absolutely free of any restrictions or protections in SL, leading to the manifold abuses witnessed routinely, such as tenants being immediately tossed off their plots, despite being fully paid up, when a new sim owner comes onto the scene. Thankfully, the consequences of SL homelessness are vastly easier to deal with than in RL.
I like the article and i recognize a lot of your sentiments. We’ve done some work for dutch universities and schools but I interpreted them not as a ‘done that’ – I’ve read it as a ‘not yet’. I see yet again, the educational expectations are outrunning technological adoption which is a gap (the chasm) that is going to have to be bridged on both sides by developer developer and consumer.
Universities are notoriously bad at this. Through the Erasmus university in Rotterdam I now what an advantage they have when it comes to developing, but what a handicap they have in communicating their findings. N.D.A’s, ego’s (don’t underestimate this factor in being a bottleneck towards adoption – intellectual status often outweighs commercial gain) and financial investments/lobbies really restrict placing their findings in the end-users hands (which obviously is a requirement for successful application). Something marketing is notoriously good at but THEY seem to be in the ‘been there done that’ stage after Second Lifes visibility (mistaking the market for the medium).
So what will it take to ‘cross the chasm’? To me, the answer is in http://youtube.com/watch?v=nK7TQVFSA1Y (1:20 – 2:00). A Steve or Bill recognizing the problem this technology would solve for a specific market, and build it. Identify, develop, market.
- Identify the problem. What is holding business/education or critical mass in consumers back, why is this not solving a problem for them?
- Develop the technology into something that will address these problems
- Market the solution to the identified problem
Chimera – many thanks for the reply. I’d love to meet in world.
I do want to make sure I make clear that although I used a fairly wide brush, I also recognize some of the incredible work that’s been done and indeed will be done in Second Life. Whether the work of someone like Tom Boellstorf studying Second Life, or the work of the folks at Princeton facilitating the exploration of art, or the use of simulation to train nurses (have to find the post, but I blogged it previously).
I’m glad however with your take on that “sentiment in the air” that the early adopters are perhaps opening new horizons. I think that a great deal of SL’s potential has been untapped. These are partly platform issues, such as stability, the inability yet to embed HTML, or the need to get Mono up and running (which will make a big difference to the ability to simulate, I think) and partly the lack of a coherent way to organize information.
And while I’m holding a “newbie UI” contest, I’m also of the belief that the tools actually need to become MORE complex in order to allow for the increasingly detailed requirements of people such as yourself. For example, I’d love to see a really detailed physics panel, or a robust particle system. Sure, you can get some great HUDS that do these things, but maybe they should be built into the system.
With these types of tools, students really could use SL for the types of things that Diana shared in her keynote, perhaps – I wonder, for example, whether something like he mass collaborative nanohub could be replicated for smaller groups in SL.
And you’re on – let’s meet, I’d love to continue the conversation.
@Digado – Thanks for the video, always amazing to extrapolate what Steve Jobs has done to the current status of SL – but what’s the equivalent of his statement, referring to Xerox that “basically they were copier-heads” when it comes to Second Life?
I wonder as well, since I’m on this riff, whether Steve’s DEPARTURE from Apple wasn’t as critical to their success today as both the early work they did and the work they’re doing today. The parallels are there – I don’t think anyone would deny that Philip is a visionary. Maybe in pulling back he’ll get some perspective, but my parallel fear is that M Linden goes too far along the linear SWOT analysis approach to strategy and loses track of those moments of awe which maybe kept us in SL in the first place – we need moments of awe, not just marketing and feature/benefit decisions.
I’ve bumped my head up more than once, having worked with universities for 14 years, against the egos and so on. But egos can be good. So can the need for building a reputation. So long as they’re backed by passion and intelligence who cares.
I sort of feel that open source and the commons is a red herring but I may be wrong and I’m loathe to jump into the debate, I’m ill informed about enough things as it is.
So, we have Chimera to help Digado – you in on the develop and market part?
You read my mind again, Dusan, been thinking about this in relation to a UI for SL. There is no “inherent contradiction”, you are the perfect, resolved SL resident. Sometimes you immerse, sometimes you augment, sometimes neither, sometimes both.
They were always superficial and pretentious descriptions anyway, made up by people who think that an ability to label and categorise implies some kind of insight. At best they describe a (usually transitory) mode of involvement – but they’ve NEVER described a type of person and we should publicly ridicule anyone who thinks they do!
Sorry, having a bit of a Prok moment…
“referring to Xerox that “basically they were copier-heads” when it comes to Second Life?”
I see it everywhere really. The most visible early adopters within Second Life are in the tech market, the community developers are tech minded, Linden Labs is a technology company (hence their poor community/marketing management). Every time i see their public blog being updated by nothing but issues and problems solved I think ‘do they ever consider the message they are sending out with that nonsense?’. The open source development, the viewer development, realXtend technologies, the decentralization of Open Sim, the wikis, the JIRA, the office hours and most of the VW blogs- All these developments are still concerned with HOW – which is the ‘copier-head approach’ (or people with a passion for technology).
In actually communicating the advantages/application of virtual worlds beyond the developers and early adopters, the WHY question is the more relevant. It identifies a problem, gives direction to development, addresses a niche that could truly find a use inside the application and create a buzz based on achieved accomplishments rather than expectations (overly simplified, but a proven strategy and well documented in ‘Crossing the Chasm’). I haven’t seen that many solid attempts to see the WHY being answered yet, certainly not within the Second Life development.
Whether Steves departure was actually good or not – i don’t think there is a way to really tell. Steve will say it wasn’t (in fact, he has on many occasions) but perhaps he never would have invented the iMac if it wasn’t for him getting back to a company in need. I hope M will be able to focus on the WHY more than Philip could, but that would mean losing the ‘everything o everybody’ approach, which i can’t see SL doing anytime soon. (hence, as indicated in your original article the industry focus on companies that have managed to develop towards a solution such as Croquet, Wonderland, ActiveWorlds and hopefully Ogoglio)
[...] on the heels of using the Wii remote to rotate a virtual object, which rotates a real object, new concepts which could truly herald the [...]
[...] argued eloquently about needing more WHY and less HOW when it comes to Second Life in a running thread from my attendance at the NMC conference. His argument is [...]
Spot on! I agree too. But I think that labeling sometimes happen naturally, boundaries between labels are always fuzzy. Some folks might find it useful as pointers may be to add some focus in a discourse. All categories are constructs, that is a given. But not all categories are equally useful.
R
Yes I did read this far
I got the same experience, more or less. Meaning: I became less tolerant for long articles and texts which have not that much added value (to use a terrible expression). I get more selective.
It is not only a consequence of blogging, I think, but of the proliferation of electronic networks.
It is part of my job to study those networks and I am also personally passionated about this phenomenon, but it is hard to monitor facebook, myspace, twitter, friendfeed, second life, pownce, the well etc. while listening and sharing on last.fm, del.icio.us and trying to write blogposts and managing some wikis.
It imposes constantly hard choices. The danger is of course that one feels constantly under pressure to do even more, it seems it is never enough.
I am glad to be able to let it all go while sailing… on Second Life.
This is horribly familiar to me too, I always put it down to age, now I wonder…
Awww…..I love the image of sailing in Second Life as the respite from the madness of our electronic world.
Now, I really need to post about my new Kindle, which although is a book reader, also ends up creating this sort of tendency to scan and skim. I wonder if it’s because the text is electronic, the reader is a certain size (blog-post length I’d call it), or whether I just like clicking the button to turn the page.
Now….a Kindle on a sail boat is about as an ideal image of which I can think.
[...] I’m a big fan of Coming of Age in Second Life, the new book by Tom Boellstorff and touched on it recently. [...]
[...] of the news pieces focuses on a demonstration of the Emotiv headset, which we’ve written about before. The piece describes a demonstration at the 2008 Game Developers Conference of a future that is [...]
[...] all the talk of usability, orientation, and coming virtual world winters, the next phase of virtual world growth might not come from the design of the worlds, but rather [...]
or even this, no big deal…works in 2D only, but soon to be free
http://www.camspace.com/
Ha. I just posted this on Savage Minds before coming over here. (I put it at the end of a longer followup post about the Boellstroff book.)
I love it. And thank you for engaging in such a fascinating discussion.
[...] I last debunked a Sacred Cow I talked about the orientation experience and concluded that the best thing to do was remove the [...]
Good ideas Dusan. It’s kind of like that in WoW. The problem with learning these things in Orientation is all the distractions–moving in the environment, other avatars, lots of things. I suppose you could look at it with a Cognitive Load framework–we can only effectively process so much at once. SL Orientation is definitely into the Cognitive Overload zone. hehe
[...] recently launched a contest to design a “newbie-friendly” version of the Second Life client. The intention of this [...]
[...] I’ve posted on this before: orientation is a sacred cow that should be killed, and the model that Spore’s using is a game changer. Tagged: [...]
[...] I’ve posted on this before: orientation is a sacred cow that should be killed, and the model that Spore’s using is a game changer. Tagged: microsoft, Second Life, sony, [...]
[...] Edit June 18th: Please see an update on this contest including announcement of judges here. [...]
How involved is Philip even anymore? Didn’t he abdicate his position or something? (Too lazy to look up the details. I don’t really follow LL politics.)
What an astute rant, dear Dusan ! I love how you combine a sharp mind and a sharp tongue.
Let me ask one thing however : if you stop to think about it, especially in the light of M Linden’s track record, does the latest spin really surprise you ? The man strikes me as a very competent marketeer, and as such, the « oops, sorry for that, there is absolutely no policy on this I can assure you » fits perfectly. It’s arguably coming a bit late for the next logical step of dealing one on one with the people voicing dissent on the SL5B issue, but the approach is sound : minimise fuss from those not directly concerned by making the right noises, and keep the real troublemakers away from the public and from each other…
All right, I might just be in an overly Machiavellian mood tonight, and besides, what do I know about the Lab’s inner workings ? But it still strikes me that, to anyone prepping SL for either corporate or mass adoption, the early adopter community is as much a liability as it is an asset, and need to be slowly dissociated from the product without openly disgruntling it. The Lab has been exceedingly clumsy and heavy handed in this simply because it lacked any kind of real management competency —and that, it seems, is what is finally changing with the advent of M.
As I said, I might be entirely wrong, but if I’m not, I guess we can expect some public faces of SL to change as today’s key personnel will have to leave the limelight in favour of much slicker types. Cassandra hath spoken
Thanks Rheta – and sure, I agree….and in some ways, I really have nothing wrong with a more professional approach to all things SL, which may include paying more attention to the latter adopters than the early ones. But that should probably be done within the context of an articulated strategy. And as much as I don’t wish anyone ill, it should probably include a changing of the guard in the PR department. I really give Katt credit for trying but a lot of these issues had Robin’s hands in them. And if you’re doing PR, don’t you think the Linden Lab site itself should have a press release a little more current than April 22nd? And have a little more competence in dealing with DMCA, the birthday and trademarks all of which she led up?
Just a thought.
Oh…and P.S. I missed ya!
Dusan, you’re sharp as an eagle and right on target. To place the cherry on the top, I was delighted to read Rheta’s comment. Yes, this is exactly the kind of thing that “follows according to plan”. Forbid gambling, kick banks out, kick ageplayers out, now curb the mature content, and, oh, lest we forget, trademark lawsuits are around the corner, shortly followed by mandatory age validation. Yep. The future of the LL Resident relationship is as bright and shiny as an oil leak in the Atlantic.
The SL5B Drama: Crowdsourcing Fiasco Or Devious Plan?…
By now, it’s impossible that you haven’t heard the news from so many sources, including Linden Lab®’s own blog post on the subject. I would like to apologise in advance for not quoting all sources; so many people wrote from so many d….
I simply can’t chime in with your all being politically-correct here, sorry.
You claim they should have said, “We were trying to do a takedown and accidently took some stuff that we didn’t mean to take” yet that’s exactly what they DID say. I understood them to mean that. You did. What’s the fuss about? They really should be applauded for taking both a governance and DMCA action here, even if they didn’t do it perfectly, and if there are accidently removals, they seem perfectly capable of restoring them in good faith. So why all the snark?
As for the birthday, being inclusive means not forcing people to leave because it’s all Goreans snapping their chained slaves and creepy kids. And that’s a good thing. The public space needs to be kept more neutral and not hijacked by special interests. I guess I’m just not seeing the horror here if they stepped on a few toes of a few entitlement-happy freaks — big deal.
As for the “Fringe” idea — yes, such groups are on the fringe, let them stay on the fringe, I’m all for that : )
I’m sorry, but I cry “bullshit” on the idea that you could walk around topless on Yonge St. People don’t. I’m not buying it, and I used to live there and walk past there all the time.
Of course, it’s oh-so-Euro-sophisticated to bang on “backward Americans” for being “Puritanical” and not wanting breasts to be displayed. But most of the angst over child pornography in SL from RL authorities, and most press coverage of this issue came from Europe, not America.
Most of the time, artists that have to resort to showing nudes to make art are pretty much out of ideas, derivative, or exploitative. It’s hard to be original on this one — most are not.
quote :
Of course, it’s oh-so-Euro-sophisticated to bang on “backward Americans” for being “Puritanical” and not wanting breasts to be displayed. But most of the angst over child pornography in SL from RL authorities, and most press coverage of this issue came from Europe, not America.
What about the Janet Jackson breast
Executive Management
Philip Rosedale | Founder and Chairman of the Board
Mark Kingdon | CEO
.
.
.
http://lindenlab.com/about/management
That was largely manufactured outrage, Sacha. Manufactured outrage by a group of politically-motivated religious extremists, and amplified by a right-wing-friendly corporate media. After all, the greatest amount of broadcast outrage was from Fox News … which is owned by Rupert Murdoch … need anything more be said?
I guess someone forgot to tell Picasso, Gauguin, Bonnard, Rodin, Goya, Klimt, Bacon et al that Boticelli and Rubens had done it all before…
I refer, of course to the suggestion that ‘most of the time, artists that have to resort to showing nudes to make art are pretty much out of ideas, derivative, or exploitative’. Art, literature, music are always derivative; it was ever thus, from the early ‘masters’ to the present day.
As for the way in which Lindens clarify their position, words matter. Saying something was done ‘inadvertently’ in the context in which it was written is not the same as saying ‘we made a mistake’. Many Linden Lab apologies come across as mealy-mouthed. However, I commend lauraplinden for her frankness, clarity and plain speaking on the issue – if more would follow her example, fewer residents would feel that they were being led up the garden path
[...] Second Life is a Story Box. When the birthday celebrations begin, remember that there are two going on – one which was pure crowd sourcing, and one which tried to be but then decided they’d rather be a platform instead. [...]
Dusan, ta so much for missing me, and ta also for correcting my most obvious typos (/me points discreetly at the errant « about » and mistyped « me » in the second paragraph — you got the « most obvious » hint, didn’t you ?).
Although I have found myself quoted like I was agreeing with what happens, my attitude to management competency is a rather dispassionate one (might this be owed to the fact I am a member of the evil scheming sorority of execs IRL ? nah…) ; thus, when I spoke of competency, I did not imply to pass judgement on the policy this competency is applied to. I do in fact very much dislike where all this is leading, and honestly, I preferred barely management competent older generation of Lindens because in an odd way, they guaranteed SL would not evolve beyond the niche my kind has happily filled any time soon. Watching the first tell-tale signs of that state of things changing sends quite a chill down my spine.
Anyway, seeing I’m playing Cassandra already, I’ll go out on a limb and tell you more precisely what i mean by «slicker types» taking the limelight. I’m willing to bet the next half year or so will witness a.) Robin being pulled back from all contact with both the community and the general public, and b.) the rising star of Laura P., who has shown before this she understands spin and how it applies to the idea of sheathing the fist of steel in a silken glove, if you’ll pass me the expression. As to the policy this will accompany, the fates have shrouded it in mists yet
Anybody care to bet against me ?
This take on Kids5B as a metaphor for the essence of Second Life is interesting to ponder. I was lucky enough to TP to the first sim in its empty state to visit Sacha and others there as the discussions started that snowballed and created Kids5B.
Mixed in with the accomplishment of what was created by so many in a short time in the SL context is also that it was done by “kids”, who of course are not really kids, but adults who are pretending to be kids. These “kids” are frustrated by people who can’t separate imagination from reality, but seem to have claim to a moral high-ground. This intolerance, exclusion, and injustice became a powerful motivator.
Meanwhile, as one looks at all the things on the Kids5B sims, it is obvious there is a common theme of it being driven by imagination, joy, fun and a little nostalgia for the things of our childhood and youth that need not be relegated to our pasts but can manifest in this virtual, shared experience.
Unfortunately, singularity will never happen. What will come instead is war and famine.
The image of a glittering future will quickly turn into dark and scary everydays, we are living this even today. Resources are melting away, while they’re suggesting that inflation is low, around a few percent, the actual inflation of food is extreme.
(Last year in an EU country, flour went up by nearly 60 pct., cooking oil by more than 40, etc.)
The world economy is starting to collapse in the wake of the yellow and the gypsy countries (China and India.) Have you realized how much resource it takes to feed these guys at only 1/2 level of an average “western” culture?
“Meanwhile” all that you can hear about SL5B is some sick souls complaining about their out-ruling of the event. Like anyone cares. And they shouldn’t show together with adults.
What if I kicked one of them into the air knowing he was an adult… what would others think of me who’s beating up “kids”? Or of SL? It’s ok if they play whatever together, but don’t merge with adult avatars, faking they are kids.
Furries are ok, I can kick them into the air and with a bit of misfortune they kick me into the air instead. Fair trade.
And you are not the community. You are just bloggers and their fanboys/-girls. Oh. And the creative cream has contractors, the crop builds for free or for free marketing.
Thats fine if you found a group of like-minded people who take turns kicking each other through the sky without anyone getting upset about it. Good for you. Just don’t merge with the rest of us.
About 2 years ago, a couple of people adults) decided to grief some kids and kick them into the air. I won’t go into the gory details of the conflict, but needless to say it wasn’t the kids that got kicked into the air and it wasn’t the kids who were perma-banned. The incident gave rise to the saying:
“Don’t mess with the kids… you’ll lose”.
Ah, Dusan… A slap on my wrist for not visiting your site more often; always insightful.
I’d like to come to the defense of good marketing and public relations. Per Rheta’s “The man strikes me as a very competent marketeer, and as such, the « oops, sorry for that, there is absolutely no policy on this I can assure you » fits perfectly,” I disagree.
One of the first things you learn in crisis communications is to acknowledge that there is a problem. You respond IMMEDIATELY, empathetically, and then explain that you are going to take action. You then go on to delineate how you are going to take action and you insert deadlines that make you accountable. This is how you begin to reinstate trust, the most valuable commodity of all when it comes to your audience.
M Linden’s career demonstrates – beyond a shadow of a doubt, and with a proven track record – that he is able to do that and that he has done so for his clients over the years.
Also, note that he is just getting his feet wet with an organization that is extremely talented and forward thinking, but also very very ill in one important area: public relations, community relations and marketing in general.
I fully expect – and will be sorely disappointed if this isn’t so – that M Linden will begin to assert himself as the company’s CEO by: 1) Firing the unbelievably incompetent Catherine Linden and 2) firing Lewis PR.
Together, these two have caused more damage to Linden Lab than all the technical issues combined.
[...] a nursing HUD (Second Life equivalent to a widget) was demonstrated at the Games for Health Conference in [...]
I took a quick walk through the kids’ sims a couple of days ago. Really delightful, good overall design that wanders about in curves rather than a rectangular grid. And, of course, it is designed for play. That is what is so appealing about everyone I have ever met that has a child AV, they like to play. And they are generally very knowledgeable and self confident.
Wow… great stuff!
[...] written about Tom’s book previously, and there were engaging discussions on Savage Minds that are worth checking out for both an [...]
So SL or other virtual worlds are full of people that are a bit sick of their real lives? Even if this obnoxious judgemental crap was true – so what?
People find plenty of escape-routes from the daily grind or an unhappy homelife – often involving recreational drugs, excessive alcohol or meaningless (dangerous) sex and, more than likely, some suicidal combination of all three. Is SL really worse for you than that or more deserving of ridicule?
To spend your off-time socialising and/or creating as part of an international virtual community doesn’t seem like such a bad escape to me. I’d worry more if I was one of the people that feel the need to pass judgement on others and then sneer at them – that’s completely pathetic.
Ah, The Palace….those were the days…even 2D lagged then…
[...] – light versions, Flash versions, and phone versions – the next level of innovation will come as much from the devices used to access them as the worlds [...]
May be you should check Stonfield InWorld’s website
http://virtual-worlds.stonfield-inworld.com/the-world-could-be-at-your-hands/
This doesn’t perfectly match your expectations right now, this is not Microsoft Surface, but we’re preparing something that could answer your very last question
I’m assuming Dusan was being ironic in the last paragraph. Either Eris didn’t get THAT, or Eris is being ironic too and I didn’t get it. Isn’t life complicated? hehe
Chimera Cosmos
[...] so it makes you wonder whether this stuff is as easy as people wish it were), predictions of a virtual world winter should be tempered by uptake of newer approaches to technology – stuff that I can’t really [...]
[...] of a book by Tom Boellstorff’s ‘Coming of Age in Second Life’, the when I saw the second one I followed links that lead me to the first chapter [...]
Sims capable of carrying more than 40 av’s at a time would certainly be a blessing to SL – it would make clubs and gigs actually work – but is the concurrency plateaux really only due to these (or other) technical reasons?
My guess is still (yup, i’ve ranted on about this before!) that the current levels represent the number of people who want to be a part of BUILDING Second Life at the moment and not the total number that might ultimately want to use it. Philip Linden said t’other day we are “a community now of a quarter of a million people or so a day using Second Life” – a quarter of a million people a day (mostly) trying to make this thing work, we should also remember to give ourselves some credit for that!
My question would always be – who are we trying to make it work FOR? Where is the audience for our show? The visitors to our virtual places? It’s not enough to do this stuff just for ourselves – all of us wandering around admiring each other’s work in some virtual closed-circuit? We need to open the doors and make VISITORS welcome and stop assuming everyone will come wanting to be a builder.
Relating this to the new-user experience, one thing that occurred to me a few days ago – why not ’stream’ new users through an induction process that’s much more themed to their type of interest in SL? For example, a new user could be asked what area of SL interests them most, do they want to be a virtual architect, a fashion designer, a party-girl or whatever.
Choose builder/architect and your first default avatar gets automatically dressed in coveralls with a tool-belt and steel-toe-caps – or looks like Leonard da Vinci, paintbrush behind your ear, a set of callipers in your hands – whatever, there should still be choices. Then you’re led thru a beginners course in building SL-style. You could be offered to attend one of the building classes, given a freebie box of builders goodies and a brace of landmarks to relevant helpful sites in SL.
A social user could get a ‘club-kid’ avatar, be shown how IM’s work, how to befriend other users (and then mute them!), how to use the Events calendar, how to find groups you might like to join, a set of noob-friendly party landmarks..
A fashion designer would get a ‘fashionista’ or supermodel avatar and could be shown how the whole Appearance system works, how flat textures map onto your avatar to form garments, how clothing layers work, be given the fashion template files etc… You get the idea i’m sure.
Of course nothing would be denied to any user – it would just mean the induction process would teach you things you actually want to know with the intention of getting people to their kind of Second Life sooner rather than later. Flatten the learning curve a little? Make any sense?
Actually my comment would make more sense in the entry where you’re actually discussing avatar creation, huh?
Comment first, think later…noob mistake, sorry!
Cloud computing? How about setting your sights above the clouds and considerfollowing the sun or the moon for computing?
This was too hard to pass up this punfest, but seriously, lemme point you over to Kevin Kelly to explain: http://kk.org/ct2/2008/06/follow-the-moon.php
I have seen patterns of popular sims that rotate between EU and US visitors based on the diurnal patterns – so it could make sense that a given sim could be hosted at an area where most users are active during a given time of the 24 hour day.
Ohhhh – very nice Eris. I think the user experience group at the Lab is working on a similar approach – sort of a tour HUD idea for newbies, based on themes – build, shop, dance, etc. What I love about your idea is how you actually connect it to the type of avatar or “character” you’re given. I probably would have liked that myself – a “role” to have – of course, get rid of it once you really understand what’s going on, but it’s a way to enter a comfort zone quickly.
I’m not actually knocking SL, but I am wondering if it’s useful to think on a much bigger scale. I agree on new users, the interface, the tools – all stuff I’ve written about, but I suppose this is my attempt to broaden the horizon, or widen the world…something like that. Take the issue of servers in Australia – it’s something they want, Linden said it was coming, and it hasn’t happened. But what would happen if we truly thought of the SL technology as needing to be massive, massively parallel, and support massive numbers of users? Maybe the applications and users would follow if Linden really started demonstrating that it was committed to the idea of linking all humanity.
And yeah, haha Pais – I was thinking of that same post by Kelly but decided to stay away from it for now.
[...] 26, 2008, 12:24 am Filed under: Uncategorized In a nice little twist of serendipity, a comment on this post led me to this site, where I found this: “the main reason SGG (Saint Gobain Glass) is now in [...]
I still say there is a decent chance we are all avatars. Seems to make sense.
Eventually all of “our creations” will no longer be avatars but thinking/living/reasoning creatures. We will have created life. 
Marketing is essential! Users will engage and still with something if they believe in the vision and make some friends–it is the journey to the 3D Web future, not the short-term destination that most people are excited about. We hear LL is rolling in the money lately–but not investing in marketing. No wonder new reg are stalling and even the devoted are withering.
Some look at the recent LL data: http://rezzable.com/blog/rightasrain-rimbaud/looking-linden-sl-data-and-trying-be-excited-about-sl5b
Hey,
fyi: Ecodazoo istn based on papervision but on Sharikura from Roxik.
check out there site at http://temp.roxik.com
greetz_flo
Whoa Florian that’s amazing. And thanks for pointing that out, I think it’s a common misconception.
I’d guess a lot of those savings come in the form of time and travel, not necessarily personnel. I can’t speak from personal experience, but that’s the impression I’m getting from talking to some of the people creating training sims.
Even though virtual worlds are great for replacing training rooms, real-world environments, and traveling to lectures, seminars, etc., the avatars that are helping you learn in context still usually need human help.
There are certainly some functions that could be automated and so VW technology might be a threat to some human training staff, but I’d guess that it’ll become a tool for many more of them.
Like the iTnews article continues, “Trainees can still interact with each other and their trainers.”
Nice writing. You are on my RSS reader now so I can read more from you down the road.
Allen Taylor
[...] tried PMOG (which constantly crashed my browser) and Weblin (which made too many irritating noises and left me feeling like my avatar was standing in the [...]
[...] covered Sony’s Home previously, and commented that the delay in its launch sounded primarily cosmetic. Once feared as a possible [...]
Hmm, but Sony are a major content provider with huge catalogues of games, movies and TV. My guess would be that better embedding that content into ‘Home’ is the reason for the delay not making prettier inworld environments. Sony don’t want Home to be like SL, they’ve said this already, so it seems likely they’ll use it a 3D portal to Sony-owned content.
So you make your avatar at Home, your friends do the same (or you make some new friends inworld) and then invite them round to your free apartment to watch pay-per-view movies or TV on your inworld movie wall. Or collect a gang of friends together and jump straight into a pay-per-session game of LocoRoco, or whatever…
Surely Home will be driven by content? Sony will make it a reasonably compelling place to linger but then base Home’s ‘economy’ on delivering paid content. They don’t need avatars to make the content – they own it all already!
In my view the big stumbling block is the demographics of the install base: something like 99% PS3 owners are dudes. How you gonna have a successful social virtual world when you can only socialize with other dudes?
Well the roadmap is the problem, and I think RaR is just tired of anticipating on a rather void ‘promise’ Philip regards to be their mission (their ‘roadmap’) – ‘the 3D internet’. That however, is not a goal you’d want to have your money in unless you can afford to lose it.
Not sure I agree on that – most social (internet) platforms are still male/geek dominated – what you need is context. The social element in MMORPG’s is excellent because it provides instant context to 1) beak the ice – 2) Provide a topic both parties know about/are passionate about. That is the basic premise of meaningful social interaction.
What does bother me are the loading screens and limited tools to give this online place meaning. PS3 unlike pc is not something that would be ‘on by default’.
Console use is different as in whenever you start it, you pretty much know what you are going to do: Play a game. Different from PC which has reached a state of being on by default, which benefits socializing online. So why ‘hang out’ in the place ‘between games’ when yo came to play? I hope Sony can provide some good answers to that.
i got in through using a techcrunch invite and had an entertaining time. i can see how some might find this annoying – at first, i found it weird to see avatars in my browser. But when I went to the roach site through a wormhole and saw others there it really lit my otherwise dim light bulb. i browsed away very happy with virtual roaches, thank you very much. the art looks youngish so perhaps you are not the target market. I am a early 30’s female and had a blast, although i might not be the target either. if they can get a chunk of the highly coveted teen-20’s market and can rocket them around from site to site, I can see marketing departments all over the world trying to find these guys.
Technology is not a promise, it’s a means. The Lab promises the ‘betterment of mankind’ or whatever the heck their mission statement is but never answers the question of WHY: WHY will we all be better because of the 3D Internet? Give me the reasons and we can make sure the tools and the plans for getting there make sense. But maybe they should abandon their plans for improving humanity and stick to something simpler. Any one of these would work:
- Develop the systems, support, and marketing to achieve a 100M avatar milestone by the end of 2009.
- Leverage the fact that SL is the largest platform for user generated content in the world by working tirelessly to secure and protect IP rights, and to develop systems that allow users to effectively promote their own efforts.
- Become the premier platform for business collaboration, training and education by opening up the Grid and creating true interoperability of content and tight integration with external databases and content.
- Sell 10,000,0000 islands and then get the hell out, letting users grab their sims and host them in their basements, and generate an ongoing revenue stream through cross-collateral deals with major equipment makers like IBM and CISCO.
Those are promises. Specific missions that you can hang your hat on and develop a road map against. Each of these would lead to specific choices and trade-offs on technology investments, marketing, user attraction and retention. And, as you’d gather, many of them work at cross-purposes so you need to CHOOSE one. Otherwise you end up with a muddled mess, with content developers upping the cost because they can make just as much money now spitting out Daz models or whatever; with land owners watching their portfolios evaporate; with universities looking for a place to teach where they can back up their content and integrate it with the learning management systems; and in the process you end up pissing everyone off just enough that you have no advocates left.
Tough choices. Because as much as they might like to be all things to all people, they don’t have the resources to do that. And there’s too much competition now too do a bunch of little things half way, you’re better off choosing a few big things and doing them exceptionally well.
My feelings exactly – and if I’d had to pick one model for SL – I’d simply go with being a 3D facebook. Facilitate meetings, social interaction, profiles and expression, benchmark by users and useful information ‘mined’ and facilitate/optimize the required tools. Zuckerberg & Co is not doing bad of their ‘facilitation of interaction amongst users’ and i am convinced virtual worlds have value here, in creating more immersive, rich, personalized and closer experiences than 2D can offer.
Much to radical and easy to say from our perspective of course – but hypothetically it would give investors, developers and users a focuspoint – and LL some measurable, visible milestones to rekindle outside interest (hopefully in a more sane manner than we’ve seen in 2006) rather than to slowly strangle it with community mis-management and (or due to) lack of a clear message to the outside world
…and when they have an event that is on their agenda (SL5B, Burning Man, CSI) they use their log-on splash screen…but for something like NPIRL Garden of Delights we get no support…feeling like we playing with someone else toys? Where is “platform” with service-level agreements to customers? Or is it just their toy and we part of the toybox (and dupes for paying to fuel their profits)…
I think we can pick two directions not just one. So Second Life turns 5 and turns 2 in the same moment?
The user-made and user-traded content model works. People like it, they like being able to share their imagination with others, like having control over their own content whether they decide to gift it or sell it, they like shopping in a virtual world. User content is intrinsic to the land market too, kill one you kill the other. In short, IT WORKS and it’s paying SL’s bills right now, something the freetard developers keep forgetting. So keep it, strengthen it, extend it and, most-of-all, build a 100 metre wall around it and fast. Second Life should be a walled garden of unearthly delights.
On the other hand enterprise, education and some businesses need interoperability, scalability, open-source code, the ability to host their own sims. So give them that. The Grid should be the wider, open-sourced, interoperable platform and SL should be a walled garden within it.
We’re essentially already there but the mud in the water is the status of SL content in this wider grid. Clear the mud, give content-makers in SL the opportunity to flag their content as ‘transportable’ meaning it is allowed to leave the confines of SL and move to a wider Grid. Anything not marked as transportable STAYS in SL and Linden fight to keep it there (or else).
Why can’t we have the best of both virtual worlds?
[...] Private-branded, kid-oriented virtual worlds like Barbie seem to be taking off [...]
I sure hope those of you who want a 3d facebook don’t get your way, at least not with second life. Otherwise, just shoot me now. A separate 3d facebook elsewhere is fine for those of you who want to be bored $hiteless and don’t care that just seeing people’s faces and talking traditional business etc is only a small part of the potential of 3d worlds.
Dusan,
I thought you were more of a liberal than you appear to be with this harsh and Darwinian socialist plan.
Try to think a bit about Soviet giantism and “virgin lands” collectivism, or for that matter, if you’d rather bash American, think of American suburban sprawl.
Either of these models constitute “growthism,” that is, that profits or “betterness” can only come from growth, endless growth, moving from glory to glory. But of course, growth needs to be sustained, and there isn’t any plan for that, from the Lindens, or in your quick-impact list.
1. We may be at a hard concurrency ceiling of 65,000 that just can’t get better — perhaps that’s as many servers as you can scale on one grid with one central asset server — and that’s it. There are material limitations even to virtual things, and maybe that’s it for now — and the future consists of a lot of loosely connected grids.
Stressing out the system to shoehorn 100,000 concurrency strikes me as draconian and harsh, as it is not likely to get any more stable and will only be achieved at overfulfilling norms, Stakhanovite labour, etc. (sorry for the Soviet metaphors, but they fit).
2. Your notion that LL should just “sell 10 million islands and get out, let users grab their sims” sounds awfully can-do and tekkie, but is ignorant of the realities of the average user, even land baron with a continent. Most people cannot run server farms — they do not have the infrastructure, the maintenance capacity, the T-1 lines, etc. etc. Most people would be unlikely to run even one server. Even if they could rent from other people who then get into the server farm business, that opens up new problems. So while some enthusiastic geeks may do this, the average person will give up and go to some managed world — and the Lindens, failing to find a business model as all those freed sims go hook up on somebody else’s grid, will try to maintain some sort of collective, with a mainland and constellation of islands.
3. All kinds of other factors could happen — telecoms suddenly building more broadband and making it cheaper, or scarcity of broadband and telecoms cracking down on virtual world downloading, or politicians cracking down on a proliferation of own-hosted sims which present a regulation nightmare to them. So don’t bet on your plan to take place in a vacuum.
4. This obsession with interoperability is a chimera. SL would likely do better protecting IP and the integrity of the economy, and let all those other Wonderland and Forterra type platforms interoperate to their heart’s content if it’s so important to them. I would predict that business use even of virtual worlds that they can utterly control and have “interoperability” with simply will not graft into business culture as fast as other developments like increased capacity of mobile phones and video blogging. What makes virtual worlds interesting isn’t their virtuality, but their world. Making a Maya type program or a Sims 2 available for interactivity has its uses but without community and content and an economy, it’s just an add-on.
It’s interesting to see RightasRain go off on the Lindens, after all the feting they have done with him, constantly putting him on the front page. I don’t think the splash screen should go to resident activities because it would be more unfair even than the very unfair Showcase, where Greenies has reined for months and months. The log-on should only be for Linden-sponsored public events.
I’m always puzzled by this obsession with saving content offline. There aren’t any virtual worlds that enable you to do this. Oh, sure, if you make a texture in Photoshop, you save it on your hard-drive. But what use is a 3-D chair made to fit the scale and look and physics of Second Life on some other platform?
The fact is, for five years now, the Lindens have kept the content on the Internet, safe from loss from your own computer’s crashes — that’s how I see it. Sure, they lose inventory. But what’s remarkable is how much they save and how it is there on demand, available for individual creativity or group collaboration. There’s nothing to say that an XYZ prim sort of structure is optimal for building worlds. Other platform will not have prim-based building — so why fuss about the ability to back up a complex SL build done in prims?
I think the Lindens need a completely different roadmap about completely different things.
o Governance — the Lindens have made virtually no improvements in their very limited and very abusive and arbitrary governance systems — and they need to change drastically — Lindens should adopt a firm position of not becoming involved in inter-resident disputes whatsoever, unless they violate real-life laws such as fraud or child pornography. The Lindens need to develop more robust police blotter reporting, a more sophisticated ombudsmen system with residents/Linden interaction on tough cases or issues; my God, if Even Online can have player governance over minerals and starships, the Lindens can surely put in at least some rudimentary advisory council for people who invest real money in the platform that would be more fair than “SL Views” and other FIC groups.
o Zoning — only rabid ideological extremism keeps the Lindens from zoning — when they are ready to bite the bullet on this they will both reduce inter-resident friction and increase value and business for themselves and others — even a mere division into “residential” and “commercial” by physical continent layout would make a world of difference
o Forums should be restored, permabans reversed, and this ridiculous long tail of 150 comments on blog posts — rarely answered — ceased in favour of announcements only without comments — put up a disclaimer of liability for resident expression the way every other online news site does, and tell residents who are easily offended that they can avail themselves of real-life lawyers and libel laws should they feel the need
o Robust inworld state (Linden)radio that sells ad spots, that everyone can put on their land to add more inworld media and coherent and civilization-building
o Sell ads at the welcome areas on kiosks, signs, billboards — get over the allergy against advertising by encouraging it where the eyeballs are really there, and regulating it where they are not (pristine waterfront ruined by ad extortionists)
A model that depends on constant growth in the user numbers, such as RightAsRaid is demanding, and petulance about the Lindens not achieving that growth, isn’t sustainable and never was sustaintable. RightAsRain is basically saying, “Get out of the way and let us run the REG APIs and welcome areas since you are doing such a crappy job,” yet if there is a ceiling on concurrency, as well as a limit in the ability of ad sponsorship to keep covering expensive builds (RightAsRain’s model) due to audience shifts, burning through content, and competition, no amount of owning and running registration tools and welcome islands can fix that.
Anyone whose empire has grown along with the Lindens has been finding it collapsing for a year now.
Raw numbers of sign-up and growth for growth’s sake has to be abandoned for more concentration on retention and higher-quality user experiences, as well as enabling of lighter use for those without graphic card ability and broadband.
Is there a ceiling on concurrency from a technical perspective? Dunno really? Wow is certainly running at higher rates.
But assume there is then…why not reducing camping and bots? They are free accounts that consume platform resources.
Is it because LL is scared that elimnating camping with flaten the concurrency? My guess is that 25% of SL concurrency is campers! (Hope i am wrong btw)…camping also creates cashflow to accounts that in turn buy things (and not enough from us). So impact of dealing with Camping is significant, but it is also a defining point for the future of LL/SL.
…maybe we settle for transcripts from their boardmeetings?
some more detailed guessing about LL profits– http://rezzable.com/blog/rightasrain-rimbaud/random-guesses-about-ll-profits
So, Elvis is in the building?
Traces back to LINDEN-RESE.car2.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net
Have Linden been taking lessons at the Apple school of marketing?
Hahaha. I just love this kind of thing.
*Pais looks at his browser’s address field wondering, “Is the Dusan’s blog or the Drudge Report?”*
No wonder they made voice a priority…your blog entry suggests that Linden is moving away from personal computers and keyboards altogether.
[...] no steenkin’ keyboards! Posted on June 30, 2008 by Morris Vig Dusan Writer unearths a hint as to the Grid’s future direction in the Second Life ™ code that he found on a placeholder [...]
Say is it possible to use PV3D (AS2) w/ SWX together? Is that how you Tag Galaxy together? I have been trying to do something similar?
1. Lindens swear to me that it is only 10 percent, but I don’t believe them.
2. Tekkies argue vigorously about whether you can even tell if an account logging on is a bot or not — I maintain that you can, by its patterns of behavior and speech, but maybe this isn’t so easily automated. But I think the log-on routines through the use of bots from libsl probably have recognizable patterns
3. Even if you got rid of 10 percent or even 20 percent of the bots, that wouldn’t necessarily help the problem — because people aren’t logging on because they get turned away or lag out all the time — there are only 45,000 logging on at times when there could be 66,000.
4. I’m told there is a ceiling on concurrency but I just don’t know as LL may not wish to tell us, although we can note they have steadily pushed this upwards over the years.
Habbo suffers from a surfeit of alts, the same as SL. Users forget their pw’s, or are banned, or just want a new name to grief someone with – they sign up and make a new account. These numbers have nothing to do with any type of concurrency, which have been falling of late.
Only if I had knew about this content sooner, I would have ended up making 10+ UI Design by now.
Too bad I can’t enter in something hot.
Are those website traffic you’re speaking of?
Cause that’s pointless when WOW is not an website.
One of the things that strikes me in discussions about attracting new users, retention and orientation is that people tend to talk to them as if they all look the same, although maybe that’s just me. I’d be curious how many new users come in because of a class, because their work asks them to sign up, and that however they arrive they’re promptly whisked off to a private island somewhere, a school sim, or slipped behind the IBM firewall or something.
My point in listing out different options for strategy wasn’t to advocate for them, but to make the point that HAVING a strategy results in trade-offs, focus and a communication and marketing plan. The lack of one means making patchwork efforts to please diverse constituencies including internal ones. I’m no strategist, but I think about the Balanced Scorecard approach to corporate strategy and am reminded that it asks companies to make decisions about things like cost versus price, and internal versus external perspectives. Linden, I think, places far too much focus on internal groups than external ones, priding itself on the Tao or whatever it is, and the idea that treating its employees like innovation engines is the key to its growth – let the coders gravitate to projects that appeal to THEM. Tweaking the strategic emphasis to a more tightly structured user focus within a broader strategic framework seems to me to be long overdue.
So my examples were merely meant to illustrate that if you have a strategy, some actions and emphasis sort of falls away. So, take the concurrency strategy – while I realize there are limitations, if Linden decided its main goal was to get as many people in world as it could, I’d bet that they’d end up spending a lot less time on rendered shadows and a lot more time on light clients. I can’t remember which of the platforms at the VW conference was touting its parallel worlds? Basically being able to access their grid through both a “heavy” client and a Flash-based thin client – and the world looks completely different to each user group. One was full 3D and the other translated those 3d objects into 2D Habbo-like rooms.
Likewise the “host your own Grid” strategy – take a direction like that and you start investing in how to split the asset servers off into separate little mini asset hosts. I’m not a techie, but the idea of placing the assets closer to the sims on which they appear strikes me as worth looking at – perhaps to the point where a school or immersive sim could even deliver their assets on a CD so they preload to your computer.
Regardless, each of the strategies I outlined were just hypotheticals – the point being that if you HAVE a strategy then your decision-making process starts to feel a lot less, um, organic (sorry M) than it does now. You wouldn’t have these arguments with Torley over rendered shadows because you’d be able to say “Yeah, but rendered shadows are a barrier to our 100M avatar goal, let’s focus on a Flash-based client instead.”
As for bots. Hmmm. They’re resource-sucking and evil. They also make no sense to me – for 100L a day, is someone getting rich off these things? or is it the thrill of gaming the system?
But I do think that somewhere in the course of the next year or two that bots, whether in SL or elsewhere, will start to have more productive functions. I’m thinking NPCs I guess, for training, help, whatever – or my more idealized version of bots that are information gathering machines, kind of like spiders, roaming the Grid, accessing databanks of rich information and 3D visualization engines and shipping that data back to a dashboard.
Road maps for governance, zoning, all that stuff is critical. I’d still propose however that they fall under a strategic statement or purpose in order that those individual road maps are within a broader, coherent mission.
Nacon – you’re more than welcome to submit a late entry, just can’t bend the rules on the prizes.
Monthly visitors. Which I assume means logging on.
“escaping real life, being someone else, and creating and managing avatars”
I still detect (maybe it’s just me?) a disdain about these uses of virtual worlds, but I’m thinking more and more we need to see them as strengths not weaknesses. Think of time spent in Second Life or other VWs as short ‘brain vacations’ and maybe one way forward becomes clearer?
What if VW’s were even more like ‘imagination-resorts’ you visit, or more correctly a collection of resorts for you to choose from, each differently themed – a gay beach resort, a dystopian megalopolis, a medieval court…all imagined and run by residents themselves, pretty much as now except…
You would login, pick your destination and PAY YOUR ACCESS FEE (a revenue stream which would supplement possibly even replace the land rental model we have now) and that little world is yours to explore for as long as you’ve paid for. Immersive avatars could be employed to populate the sim, like a living museum, playing out scenarios you’re invited to join.
Not really much different to parts of SL now, just with a business model that invites casual visitors instead of permanent residents. Couldn’t that work and wouldn’t it be fun? Maybe it already exists and I just don’t get out enough?
However, I see Rezzable are about to introduce admission fees to some of their builds, be very interesting to see if it works for them. It could be one way forward for a lot of VW’s.
I really would love to see this come alive. It’s such a beautiful plan. I twould be nice to see how he incorporated historic buildings and existing mosques.
Way to run with it, Dusan! It would be fantastic to see someone attempt this, or indeed with any other forgotten plans. I’ve often wondered if there would be scope for getting some of Lebbeus Woods’ designs actually ‘built’ in a virtual world, because they never will be in the ‘real’ world.
Oh I can? well… still need more time since I only found out about this today. I don’t think you would be willing to wait a few days for me, would you?
Depends on how many people submitted, could imagine not very many. If more than 20 submitted, then it’s not worth the wait for one person, would be unfair for them because I didn’t come in by fixed deadline.
[...] has been some concern (see Justin Clark-Casey and Dusan Writer) about the integration of reX code into [...]
[...] Linden Lab at the end of the fith birthday celebrations of Second Life (that would be July 7). On Dusan’s Writer Metaverse I read about a shocking discovery: The following is embedded in the source code of a blank [...]
Lovely catch.
You’d think even busy ppl would sort of pay attention to what they themselves were saying…
[...] l’agence Reuters qui relaie cette info issue du blog de Dusan Writer qui aurait trouver par hasard, sur le site de Second Life, le communiqué suivant [...]
I would love to have the PS3 version, the PS3 would rip it up compared to most people’s personal computers. Plus movement using the PS3 sixaxis? YES! A fall down to the ground and the controller vibrates? Don’t get me started… I’ve been searching “SecondLife” and “PS3″ for months now hoping to find any story like this with any plans for SL to hit PS3.
[...] interface design contest set out to solicit the creativity and expertise of the folks who know Second Life the best – its [...]
This is cool, Dusan. Thanks for thinking of and implementing a way to pry a crack in the door to get some good ideas.
Judging entries is one thing, and I know that is important to connect to the motivational prize, but i wonder about another step that asks how to cherry-pick from elements of the entries to create an uber/gestalt design. I see some that have different ideas for overall aesthetics/skin, then functions, like inventory, communication, movement, editing, and so forth… so if the judging was also at the various element levels, those winners could be migrated into the overall design. meh? or no-meh?
Dusan, you are letting yourself be easily whipsawed and brow-beaten by these people, and that’s a disservice to all of us.
Catch up on the issue that still persists for all of us here:
http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2008/07/metanomics-fuel.html
1. It doesn’t matter if the tower is paying the host, and not the clicker — so what? The data scraping issue still remains as a privacy problem.
2. Code4 Software and the empire of Ancient Shriner and Chrischun Fassbinder that sustains their claim to “market expertise” in SL is what is at the root of the illegitimacy of SLIPPCat, and they need to sever the relationship or pressure these two cunning exploiters to remove their towers that deface sims and hijack other people’s business traffic on their tiny 16 m2 plots to scrape their data.
Code4 is a discredited business using unscrupulous methods now, inworld, in ways that are completely the opposite of what SLIPPCAT claims. Chrischun Fassbinder, who only just yesterday quit putting extortionist prices on his 16 m, gained his empire and his resources through this extortion for 3 years in SL — SLIPPCat should not be dealing with people like that.
And they have not stopped their view hijacking and eyeball hijacking. They are all over on sims where people DID NOT ASK them to come where they scrape data and take OTHER PEOPLE’S CUSTOMER TRAFFIC and parasite off it to use as data to sell their software to these much bigger outworld companies.
Dave Elchoness is merely engaged in distractions here, he must not have an inworld business.
Sorry, but outworld businesses and fancy old boys’ clubs like Metanomics simply do not get to pursue their brand of subsidized networking on the backs of inworld business, destroying their value by engaging in, or supporting, or whitewashing, unscrupulous business practices.
For others, I’ve been told there have been some problems with some of the images in the post and with the Slideshare presentation. I can’t seem to replicate some of those errors but if there are problems first, check out the Slideshare site directly and second maybe drop a note so I can try to track down what’s causing it.
As far as uber designs, feels to me like a little follow-up mash-up might be in order.
[...] Lab today dampened speculation that Second Life is about to be ported to the XBox, that Mitch will open source the whole the like Mozilla, or what held the most promise for the [...]
I received that message too from Bicky Burger and contacted him about it. He sounded like he really believes he has brought something very special in SL and wants to show the world. I mean he didn’t sound like a lame spammer. Reading his note I thought it was another stupid attempt to find a worthless loophole for the gambling ban. But after teleporting there and actually having a try, I must say I was amazed by the concept. It all looks decent and worked out well. I actually had fun on that slotmachines and video poker
And as he stated you actually can get your winnings payed in Linden Dollars because it actually is not gambling, but joining a sweepstakes drawing. Do we need it? Well I think that’s up to every individual to decide. I like it because I had fun in the casino’s in the past as well. Sweepstakes also exist in real life and are in fact very popular in US. Even big company’s like Mc Donalds use it for their promotional purposes. If the BickyBeans system is respecting the same rules, I don’t see why it would not be acceptable in SL. And if nobody needs it, it will have no market value and despite of the great work Bicky has done overthere, it will die in silence. But in my opinion I think such a creative project should get some support or at least a ’second chance’!
“the value of objects will drop off a cliff – why buy a house when they’re free”
Uhm, what did i miss? Houses used to be amongst the cheapest items in SL, at least when i first logged in, and now they’re amongst the most expensive. A good prefab will now set you back $1000’s when it used to be $100’s at most. I do take your point about object-saturation devaluing things but there’s an interesting flip-side to it too – it devalues them to their owners too…
The increasing quality and sophistication of (many) objects available in SL keeps things churning as people upgrade their beach-house or its contents. New features added to SL make this more likely too – look at how sculpts have changed things (shame they take a fortnight to load, but hey) or how Glow re-invents certain objects. These new techniques make yesterdays freebies look very tired and dated and everyone wants to update and upgrade.
It’s a tough time for SL designers and builders I know, but it isn’t all over just yet…
Sorry, Eris, I didn’t mean to imply that the object economy was dead, merely that it’s being elevated to a higher plane. Because you’re right – houses have gone up in price because what was acceptable a few years ago isn’t now – now, it needs to be rendered, have built in security systems, ability to change the textures and lighting schemes, have windows that don’t just tint they have blinds that swing closed, or are rendered external to SL in 3DS Max and stuff like that.
So picking up on Hamlet’s post over on NWN, while the growth of new residents is flat, he points out that the number of “big spenders” is growing. I’m proposing that the market for ‘lower end’ goods dries up – again, my jeans point. How many jeans can there possibly be? BUT, how many jeans with sculpted legs? And they cost more. So you get the lower end huge market evaporating and people spending more money on fewer items – again, the “level” at which content developers operate keeps increasing, it’s no longer enough to texture clothes you also have to sculpt the hoods, and not only that but build a service-business with a well-branded retail experience, group management, community events, promotion etc.
My take on the situation is it’s positive not negative – so long as the “level” at which content is developed and sold keeps increasing, SL will continue to have a sustainable economy (although land pricing is a whole other line of thought). Sites like IMVU and other ‘object-based economies’ where the tools aren’t as robust, will suffer in the long-term unless they too build, well, economies of tools rather than economies of scale.
Hmm kinda small to look at the details in those pictures. Oh well. Roy Cassini’s look interesting.
Oh and thank you for letting me in.
Dusan, you can place the link for the picture here for the full size.
Cool, we agree again then! I should apologise for misreading your original post…
This growing ‘divide’ between high-end content from experienced users and the older or freebie content is inevitable, a similar thing happened with the web in its early years. Altho’ it makes SL all the more interesting and we should celebrate the better content, it’s slightly sad too. So many users will find they’re unable to compete with the quality levels needed to have a successful business and will fall by the wayside – at least as builders, hopefully they’ll remain as residents. Natural wastage some might say but it makes SL seem that little bit less accessible to would-be creators, the hill you have to climb gets that bit steeper.
As for the increased hours we’re spending in-world – surely most of that’s a bot phenomenon? When there are people running bots just so they can auto-add people to groups isn’t there something wrong with the system and our use of its resources?
We really need to track down Nielson and find out how they gather their stats, I’d say. I’ll, um, add it to my list I guess.
Hey Nacon – and thanks, yeah it was tricky to “fit to scale” and so on. Links to each of the entries is listed alongside, and sorry for not adding a link to the full-sized version!
First, reminder that I’ve also got these up on Flickr:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/13768013@N05/sets/72157602066532186/
And second, here’s the link to Nacon’s entry:
http://www.blueforgefire.net//vincent/artworks/UI-Design.jpg
Copyleftists and leftists in general deeply wish for the object economy to be dead because they think the neo-communist model that will obtain in cyberspace will supplant discrete objects sold one at a time with intellectual property rights with a freebie culture where everyone will work on the collective farm for free, share in a “join work product”, and live off stone soup. That little old lady who grows the turnips is going to be worked to the bone, of course…
“The beach house, socializing user of yesterday might very well have been supplanted by teachers and students, businesses and trainers – who knows, maybe the hidden economy is all off on those closed islands, with IBM happily playing behind its firewall or Cisco or whoever holding business meetings over on some corporate sim somewhere.”
Yet another cherished geek goal — to get rid of those beach house socializers with their tacky mass culture and tawdry cyber-sexing and replace them with sophisticated urbanites having art gallery opens in faux distressed urban settings.
Except…those teachers and students do not do a lot of consumer buying. They are themselves horribly devoted to the freetard culture and encourage everybody to make and distribute for free — they don’t tend to buy a $3500 mansion, even if they might buy a $1500 skin — but they try to get the free skins.
Businesses and trainers? I don’t see them as massive upholders of the economy, either. Why do I think that? Because when I fly around my rentals or go shopping which I do constantly, I see people with group tags that show they belong to other rentals, clubs, newbie groups, activities groups and not business groups. The business people don’t leave their islands — to be part of the economy, they’d have to leave their islands.
Oh, they might hire an interior decorator and she might buy a plant — woot! — but that’s hardly an infusion into the economy.
I think that in fact bots *do* in part account for this big 30,000-80,000 surge, as bot use has been increasingly substantially precisely because of the economic downturn, as businesses seek frantically to increase traffic on a few high-traffic venues or increase camping because they need to pay for eyeballs to come see their vendors’ offerings and maybe buy out of them.
I don’t think bots account for ALL the surge in spending, however, and here is what is going on. Americans and British and other English-language speakers think the world ends when their old world decreases, but they forget that those speaking French, German, Russian, Japanese, Portugese are coming *too*. You can’t read their blogs (actually, I get a kick out of reading their blogs sometimes when I see them linking to me, and I find it hilarious to read stuff like this that is incomprehensible except for one word:
Prokofy hagendazz mit kerflaken ham su permabannen.
LOL
I see blogs in Taiwanese, Hebrew, and Tagalog mentioning only two decipherable words “Prokofy” and “FIC” lol.
These French and German and Japanese and Russian are coming in and starting businesses and sometimes very sophisticated products that they sell to their fellow countrymen. They are venturing out and starting to buy farther afield as well, so even without especially advertising for “foreigners” (although I try to put in key words at least) I get them. They can’t understand a word I’m saying, we use translators sometimes, but they do understand how to right click and pay an object.
The EU members think that because of VAT, and because of all the whiney little issues fanned by Vint Falken, that SL is dead. But it isn’t dead for someone brand-new from France or Germany or Russia or Japan who doesn’t care about their effete culture and is essentially not THAT different from the mass culture of the beach housers and socializers. People are people.
They may have succeeded in retaining precisely because a lot of the Orientation Island stuff contained English only or Western-style cultural memes that were simply opaque to them so they skipped right over them lol.
Eris, your tears for oldbie freebie content leave me COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY unmoved, and here’s why:
You feted oldbies made crappy content, and then glutted the market with it horribly, making it free and copyable, but not transferable and sellable, and often not modifiable.
They didn’t REALLY want to help the economy by helping innovation by leaving things on “mod” — they merely wanted to show off their fake altruism and have other people tier their freebies displays to drive them to their stores where they sold whoppingly expensive stuff. They didn’t REALLY want to help newbies by enabling them to transfer and sell their items, often by modifying them — which would REALLY be altruistic. The newbies would hardly sell them for much, and it would help both spread of the loss-leaders and help to newbies to enter the economy, instead of having to enter a harsh apprenticing system controlled by oldbies ruthlessly.
So what happened due to this awful oldbie freetard culture is that innovation was stifled, and newbie-to-newbie economic relations were not encouraged. A newbie who could pick up an ugly Siggy Romulus beachhouse never had any motivation to try to sweat out making his own and selling it.
It took breaking the forums, where these people ruled, and making a larger world with lots more people outside the US, finally to get the newbie-to-newbie economy functioning again, largely thanks to Brazilians, Japanese, Spanish, Dutch, Russian, etc. who made cheaper furniture and houses.
I knew SL was finally turning a corner more than a year ago when I saw my first German 512 m2 prefab, with a creative design and nice textures.
The people who wanted to “help” newbies by showering them with freebies as if they were toddlers and not adults with disposable income with DSL lines just like themselvse helped cripple the economy.
The fact of the matter is, the oldbie craftsmen still go on making expensive stuff and freebies which they still use all their FIC institutions to get newbies hooked up — showing up in the Library even with skins; being in Showcase; getting on the website; being featured in Torley tutorials, etc. etc.
>Perhaps the real economy has shifted, as Philip famously predicted, to a service economy – one built on helping folks solve problems, not on furnishing their beach houses.
In one very large sense, you can’t make money on the Internet because it’s basically just a big telephone you use to call the warehouse and send the same trucks over the same roads with the same stuff you could get if you went to the store in person.
There is a certain amount of artificial demand you can create for people to buy $1 hats on Facebook or even $100 US beach houses on or $1500 islands on Second Life, but it isn’t going to be wildly massified because most people pretty much have to earn and buy money in real life pretty much tethered to their real-life needs.
An entire film arose over the structure of this giant telephone called the Internet that provides all kinds of technical services, consulting, software, scripts, etc. but a lot of the jobs are being shipped to India and China and while it’s all good, and represents a successful sector, it isn’t enough to entirely replace old features of economies like making steel or plastic or lumber.
Philip fails to realize, evidently, like you, that the basic problem most people want to solve is having a meaningful relationship with another human being who listens to them and has sex with them. And Second Life has solved that problem wondrously for many hundreds of thousands of people.
But…real life continued to solve it better, or at least, Facebook continued to solve it better.
Yes, there are 10 million people playing World of Warcraft, but I think that most people aren’t adolescent boys who want to play war. So there’s a limit to this sector and the “problems it can solve”.
I realize the business types are struggling manfully to portray this as a platform where there can be training and meetings. Unfortunately, it runs the high risk of exposing how fatuous and meaningless and wasteful the whole trainings sector thing itself is in business unless it’s spliced very carefully.
I think for most business people from real life in SL, if you asked them what they really got out of SL, if it isn’t a close personal relationship, or a sense of accomplishment from building, or a topic about which they can self-express on a blog, they haven’t gotten anything out of it and it doesn’t interest them and they wander away, even if they mouth platitudes about “training”.
Second Life is a telephone — a party line, for most people who can’t afford the level of privacy and sophistication it can offer some.
Ian Bogost is such a politically-correct sourpuss.
Slimjim is a cool game, this is the wave of the future.
Prok – I’m not an economist, I leave that to Castranova along with his tireless attempts to preserve the magic circle. But I DO follow his line of reasoning that in a world with no scarcity that it’s a bit of a pyramid scheme when it comes to an object economy. 10 people come, they make jeans, they need 20 people to come along and buy them, those 20 need 40 to buy the t-shirts they make, and so on. There are no sinks – the only sinks are canceled accounts and my inventory. Some day I’ll hold a 1L sale for items called “Object” and bring down the markets entirely.
Time, attention, users and MAYBE server space are scarce, so they’re the things that leave platform owners with some levers with which to control the world.
Thus my disagreement with Linden’s sudden change of sim pricing, and my railing along with the Rezzables that they don’t do enough to attract new users and haven’t been aggressive enough in improving the orientation experience. In a world of abundance, the battle is for new users, their time, and their investment in the one scarce resource left – server space. Oh, sorry – the other scarce resource right now is code – sure, there’s other worlds, but there’s a scarcity of code that allows you to launch a user-generated world that comes anywhere NEAR to Second Life. It’s why the concept of taking the server code open source is moronic. SURE, let folks teleport to OpenSim and back – if they’re going to leave anyways, you might want to preserve the ability to keep a lifeline to their wallets – there’s no commerce on OpenSim, at least let them come back and spend some money – again, the scarcity is time, and if you can’t have all of it, desperately try to hang on to a few minutes of it anyways.
So that leaves us with new users. Sure, Linden can pull in new markets – but if only 1 in 20 stays past the first hour, well, sure, I guess there are a lot of countries out there, maybe broadband will catch up with the Filipines, but it would be a lot easier if they’d get 2 in 10 to stay instead.
So, I’m not ADVOCATING for a freebie culture. I posted here quite a while ago that one of the economic metrics that isn’t tracked but should be is the gift economy – the freebies, swaps, handouts and crafts. Don’t ask me HOW to measure it, maybe Typewriter can go stand on a sim somewhere with a clipboard and watch, or harangue people at the local mall to complete a “short simple questionnaire” and then upload his data to Castranova’s brain or whatever they do.
Frankly, if Xcite! would publish its sales data, I think we’d learn everything we need to about the direction of SL. As Xcite falls or rises, so does the Grid.
And some time ago, I think back in the days of my poor understanding of the term ‘thumb-sucking’, I tried to clarify that yeah, sure, I’m an elitist northern liberal or whatever, but that I realize that the reason Second Life exists, the reason it will persist, is because of the beach house, not whatever’s happening over on the Princeton sims. It’s a Story Box – well, it’s what I call it anyways. As I said:
“There’s room for the quiet steady pace of Caledon and its genteel citizens, and there’s room for the dark urban shadows of Midian City or the City of Lost Angels. The communities of shop keepers, the people saving up from camping to rent their first little plot of land…all of these are important stories. Because when we gather round to talk to each other, first we need to sort out what happened in the day, and that’s what people are doing….imagining variations of their real lives, or ones that they’d like to have…talking and chatting, mingling and copulating, driving the car they’ll never be able to afford otherwise or getting a makeover that catapults them to movie star good looks.”
This doesn’t negate the fact, however, that when we gnash our teeth over the new user data, or time in world, or slippage in the economy that there are a few realities at play:
1) As the number of objects has grown, deflation occurs, and objects that once may have cost money can now often be got for free.
2) As a result, as Eris points out, the way to win in this economy is to create ever-better objects, which often means creating stuff AROUND the objects. Which is good, because it means better stores instead of sloppy prims, and it means communities and group management tools etc.
3) There MAY be a shift to more user time in world because there are now a few other user ‘types’ – namely business collaboration, schools, etc. I’d propose that these groups don’t do anything for the SL economy – they help sell server space, but even for that I think Linden’s headed in the wrong direction, because for the schools they need cheap, they need lower computer specs, and they need secure. For businesses, it’s fine for a few willing early adopters, but the SL “brand” is too fraught with peril for the majority.
I point out these realities not because I agree with them, simply to point out that there are a few things that change over time, and how we measure ‘traffic’ or ‘growth’ should take into account some of these countervailing trends.
So what we have is Second Life as one of the top three growing sites by sheer volume of hours. youTube and Facebook are based on user-generated content but it’s FREE content, made for free and given away for free. Now, youTube was just forced to download the IP addresses of all those folks who viewed illegal youTube videos to the government – THAT’S what I call copy protection. But really – have either Facebook or youTube made any MONEY yet?
The only people making money amongst these top three sites are the Lindens, selling server space that they threaten to open source, and the content creators whose creations are not aggressively protected. And sure, a land owner or two – but I call them content creators as well, because they really take a blank slate and create an environment that people are willing to pay money to live on.
If your analogy is right, then what the Lab is planning is to give away free long distance to anyone who wants it so that they can then proclaim that IBM is using their phones, and will then wonder why they’re not making money and IBM is chuckling as it packages up fire-walled sims with integrated Lotus notes apps or whatever.
But at least the phone sex lines will probably keep turning a profit. As Xcite! rises, so rises SL.
Prok – I’m shedding NO TEARS for “oldbie freebie content”, good riddance to it, it’s ugly and inept – altho admittedly I learned a lot from pulling it apart.. I was making the point that new (potentially creative) users seeing the increasing quality of content available within SL may be discouraged before they start – it was a passing thought about SL’s inability to get past its current plateau.
You might think my content equally ugly and inept but my ambition is to improve and certainly not to be one of the ‘oldbies’ – how very dare you!
I may have agreed with some other things you said (i usually do) but i don’t have time to read all that – never a word when 100 will do, eh Prok?
As is usual for me, I’ve written a blog entry that’s far too long for a comment, so you can find it at http://eloisepasteur.net/blog/index.php?/archives/165-Second-Life-Interface-design-contest.html
Here’s hoping someone at Linden Lab sits up and takes notice, there are a LOT of great ideas and principles in this set.
[...] the Long Tail wasn’t written for content creators. It was written for businesses, and although it spouts off at the potential [...]
I tried to update the PDF on my blog with a revised version (the contents are unchanged, but the typo to text ratio is mercifully lower. The old version made em wince each time I looked at it). Unluckily, I managed to mess up the link while I did, thanks to a fabulous joint effort with wordpress.com’s borked file manager. Anyway, the long and short of it is the entry is now located here. Sorry.
Thanks Rheta – updated the post as well.
There are too many erroneous ideas in your essay to count.
First, the idea that the “hit machine” is being replaced. I guess that’s why…every news outlet faithfully covers “American Idol” on TV every morning and everybody watches “American Idol” every night, to its advertisers’ glee. YOU may not watch it; I may not watch it, but so many people do, that your notion of the death of the hit machine is completely skewed. Top 40 radio; top selling CDs; top-draw live cts — these concepts all completely pertain, and completely reward the stars they make even if there are now garage bands that also have a chance to make a little bit more on MySpace than they would on their home town club circuit.
The dirty little secret of the long tail is that it is…long. Mining it is time-consuming and hard work. And in fact the very people who celebrate it don’t live by its rules. Arrington tries to get first interviewed by mainstream media then gets himself a column on the Washington Post. People’s blogs and social media sites are constantly bought out by bigger media entities. The large concentrated media corporations own a lot of the blog and social sites anyway.
Creative Commons is socialist or communistic — when it isn’t being corporativist and medieval — and in fact the two ideologies have many basic similarities.
Groupism is fanned by those making a dime off the conference circuit with the new cyber communism, but in fact, real people in the real world keep defeating them and not marching in the rows they wish. The long tail is long — except when it isn’t, and is playing WoW.
Like Lessig, as I explain on my blog comments, you portray “monolithic corporations” as a caricature. At what point does a record company that helps a band get seen and sold become “monolithic”? There is such a range of these companies, and their operations have changed so in recent years that your notions are as outdated as your cliche about them
http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2008/07/dear-lindens-no.html#comment-121245216
I’m glad you’ve conceded that this shill of “self-empowerment” and “self-actualized man” a la Marx are terribly deceptive. In fact, if Marx was REALLY about “self-actualized man” you wouldn’t have seen the destruction of the individual and his rights under communism that you in fact did see. The path to restoring that self-actualization does not lie in communes and guilds but in the struggle for individual civil rights and respect of property rights, just as it does in real life.
re: “we find ourselves at the whim of the local baron who decided that our IP rights aren’t worth enforcing, or who tries to cajole or co-opt our willingness to do stuff for free.”
But that’s Linden Lab. That’s Lessig. Lessig cajoles and co-opts willingness to do for free for the massive fraud that is Creative Commons. LL also pushed the freetard spirit as a way to get free labour for itself as a start-up and later as a business making a profit on fairly risky and thin margins.
The local baron isn’t Anshe Chung; it’s M Linden.
Dusan, these are good insights, but you need to now push them further.
“this time the shelf space is where you’re placed on Google, how deep your banner advertising budget goes, and whether you can afford to upgrade your filter engine (a lesson maybe that Yahoo learned too late).”
The Infinite Aisle is only as big as your computer screen or your tiny mobile phone screen, your time, and your attention. So it’s bigger than a bricks and mortar store shelf near the door, but gosh, not THAT big…and accessing and manipulating and monitoring all those new screens in the infinite aisle turns out to be…not much different than the old model of the star machine. All those amateurs getting millions of hits on YouTube have attention and time, but no money.
And here’s where your friend Lessig and the Creative Commons and the guild all let you down. Because it was trying to harness you in a movement against the Man to bring down the big corporations. It was trying to use your power of enthusiasm and desire to get credit — in the belief you couldn’t — or shouldn’t — expect much else — and use you — exploit you! — to destroy a seat of power, the old white dead corporate blah blah.
Except, by doing that, they destroyed your ability to make a buck, to REALLY empower yourselves. So they are destructive Bolsheviks, and the shame should be deep for celebrating them.
I’m sort of failing to see if we’re disagreeing, or agreeing under a different guise, Prok. I’m trying to count the erroneous ideas but I’m not finding them. My premise is that the theory of the Long Tail is a hoax. It’s something that business is gobbling up. And it’s a hoax for two reasons: one, there are still hits, it’s just that the hits are being produced by Amazon and not Borders, by iTunes and not Sam Goodys or wherever. Even American Idol in its own way is an example – without mobile phones and crowdsourcing your friends to vote for your favorite Idol, and without youTube clips well, sure, it’s still a hit, but it’s still being fed partly by these newer media.
I didn’t say that hits are dead. Anderson points that out in his book as well – there are still hits, but they don’t sell at the same volume as 10 years ago and there are fewer of them, purchasing has been distributed down the tail. So my premise here is that if the Long Tail is a lie – that all the content providers have been offered paradise when in fact the powers of distribution are just being re-aggregated under new banners, then the danger is that we forget to ask the question “but who gets paid” as all these one song sales line the pockets not of the content creators but the Web portals.
This leads to pressure to compete. This pressure to compete leads to a guild-hall mentality, one in which stuff is given away for free, in which content creators resort to the Creative Commons on the slim chance that it will somehow give them SOME small slice of the pie.
Sure, there’s no such thing as the monolithic corporation. There are content creators who want to be companies, companies who want to tap into the content creators as cheaply as they can, and copyright whose goal was to protect intellectual property for its value in commerce. Did I say that was wrong? I don’t remember saying it was wrong, I simply said that the response to this was a reaction by those with fewer levers to power. And my point is that this is a trade-off. While trying to protect their own rights to distribute their content and have a slice of the pie, and while hoping that maybe there’s a slice of that pie in being able to mash up other content, the creative commons was created.
But my very point is that this is a guild hall mentality. And my point about a guild hall mentality is that it’s medieval, not that it’s necessarily to be applauded or supported. What I fear is that the folks trumpeting creative commons don’t realize that they’re participating in a group compromise. Instead of asking what’s WRONG with the “what’s mine is mine and what’s yours is yours” approach to IP, they’ve adopted the attitude that old industries are being upended, they want in, so they’re letting themselves be co-opted to a degree by the folks who are trying to be the NEW industry, and whose doors they may find have been shut on them once the whole mess is sorted out.
And finally, I MEANT M Linden, I didn’t mean Anshe Chung. Where you read land baron by my use of the term baron, I think I was fairly clearly that the person who decides that our IP rights aren’t worth enforcing isn’t Anshe, it’s the Lab.
So I’d like to understand where the cliched ideas and erroneous claims are.
1. It is a “hit” society it’s just that WHAT is a hit has partly shifted.
2. I’m not celebrating the guild hall. It’s a medieval notion which has resurfaced in a misguided attempt to come to an accommodation with power rather than simply asking what’s wrong with power in the first place.
3. Our issue is with the Lab, not with copybots.
I see us, perhaps, as aggressively agreeing unless I’m missing something here. And I can’t believe I just said that, being the Canadian thumb-sucking liberal that I am.
[...] then previewed his 3D camera, positioning it as a cheap-and-ready motion capture system which I previously covered. The Big Announcement Mitch announced the creation of an annual award for achievement which [...]
[...] I suppose puts the early adopters in the category of refugees from reality? In fact, Mitch echoed Philip’s claim that the early users of Second Life were people “with too much time on their [...]
The line about voice is what made the most sense, Philip or Mitch doesnt like to type, so he had to have voice, so it was forced on us.
SL are losing customers for one reason and one reason only, they do NOT listen to what the customers want.
Any business without a good customer service record will fail.
I asked Blondin 4 times if there would be a video stream as promised. I was completely ignored,
That was not a suprise, it is what LL do, if they dont like the question, it is ignored.
no customer service will eventually mean no customers.
[...] you who requested one and shall deliver! If you’re impatient, Dusan Writer’s (thank-you!) got a text summary with [...]
[...] As I’ve said earlier, it’s not the viewer or the world that will drive the next frontier of innovation, it’s the devices. [...]
[...] line from Dusan Writer’s blog about the keynote: "He then encouraged residents to, well, basically to stop whining and start [...]
Thanks for posting this summary. I was unable to attend in avatar owing to the fact that SL can’t scale for these types of events, and the audio archive’s server was down when I tried to access it. However, I would like to say that I generally agree with his vision of the 3D Internet — except for Second Life being a part of it.
Taking the early adopted/Internet analogy (which I’ve seen Kapor use before) Second Life is kind of like the Gopher protocol — useful if you can figure it out, but hardly the technology that will drive the masses past the knee of the curve on that bell chart you have above.
Re: “I somehow picture this group out in California that gets together over vegetarian sushi and compares vitamin regimens, all of them hoping to hang on just long enough to witness the Singularity.”
Thanks for giving me such a hard laugh for the day — no, for the month ROFL.
Thanks for the entertaining write-up- I had to attend several RL meetings today and there was no way I could have snuck off to log into SL!
I’ve had my first email address in early 1993 and my first browser was Lynx, which was text-only! Boy, have we come a loooong way!
OK, stay, bond, but don’t whine.
Sounds a lot like, “Give us your money and shut up.”
Pragmatism = real-world businesses and corporations, education, and charities.
Charm and character(or “yesteryear concepts” which will be eroded) = us.
(And don’t whine about it.)
And we, the early adapters, are going to become “uneasy” about our new role as yesteryear concepts, whose charm and character is no longer wanted or needed. It ain’t gonna be fun for us.
But – there are some things Linden Lab just has to do, sorry.
Have I got that about right so far? (Bearing in mind I haven’t listened to the speech.)
OK, moving on, announcements in decentralization will be coming in the next days, weeks, months – one after another after another, apparently.
What does “decentralization” mean? All I can think it means is the increasing loss of our center. Our center is LL, doing anything at all for us.
I tend to interpret that to mean, every step of this decentralization will be one less connection between us and LL, and one less thing LL feels responsible for doing to run this world.
Do I have that anywhere near right?
So in a nutshell, it’s shut up, stop whining and get out of our way to bigger and better things than the the concerns of you, the regular old residents who aren’t real-world corporations, educators, or charities.
(And by the way, we are going to remove services, one after another, and you won’t get them unless you give us 25,000 U.S. dollars to be in the corporate Enterprise level.)
BUT – buy my nifty new camera, and let me demonstrate how great it is!
Do I have all this right? Yes? No?
Kind of makes me wonder what we are here for then, if we are yesterday’s news they must turn away from now, and we are supposed to learn our new place.
Oh yeah – our MONEY. And our presence as audience for all those corporations.
And I guess many of us will still stick around for that, until they succeed in finally making it not just painful, but totally pointless.
I think I would call this Mitch’s official “So long suckers, and thanks for all the fish” speech.
coco
[...] Posted by Sansarya Great line from Dusan Writer’s blog about the keynote: "He then encouraged residents to, well, basically to stop whining and start [...]
Sadly, that is one way of interpreting it.
It echoed Philip’s quote about early users: “The early users of Second Life are simply people who have a lot of time”
http://dusanwriter.com/?p=265
Whether Philip got that from Mitch or Mitch from Philip, they’ve all gone religious on us about adoption curves.
[...] is still in Beta, the early returns seem disappointing, especially since we’ve written here before about the potential for the platform to develop cities and use real world geography. We assume that [...]
The US West was largely settled by railways, mining companies and the US Cavalry. All operated on concessions and orders from the government. The first thing any rugged Western individualists did was not to gaze at the far horizon but sit down and write a town charter and elect a sheriff.
The supreme individualism of the Western tradition exists only in the mind of deeply unread people. One of the LL’s problems is that they’re good at churning out speeches that sound good at first hearing, but end up being so much bumph.
There was nothing in the Kapor speech that could not equally have been said by a 90s dotcommer immediately before the cash. Th escape from time and space didn’t mean anything then and it doesn’t mean anything now.
The true dotcommer escape was from corporate responsibility and that is still the case.
[...] out in a crowded universe of 3D chat rooms and virtual world dance halls. Groups like Dreamworks, Spielberg’s involvement with games, virtual celebrity-endorsed clothing from Millions of Us are bringing name recognition where right [...]
Thank you for the summary and graphics. I look forward to the text transcript, too.
I am optimistic about Kapor’s claim that Second Life “needs to evolve and move to a more decentralized structure. Announcements of this decentralization will come from Linden Lab….” I hope this means that Second Life will not be solely housed and served by LL servers. There must be alternative way to lease, buy or otherwise operate Second Life space, and also manage risk [backups, failovers] in proportion to costs. In other words, some users won’t use SL until they have the control that they need to protect their vital interests.
Compare it to a web server. Some need, or feel that they need, their own. Others are comfortable with renting services. Some know that they *must* have a backup, failsafe plan that will keep their SL space operational, while others can afford to live with a less expensive, but less reliable SL space.
I’m not too keen on leaning my body, with my feet planted, to move around. That would quickly tire my leg and back muscles. Being able to step forward, though, or step back, would be less fatiguing, I suspect. I like the idea of exercise and moving my body around. It’s just the *leaning”, with feet planted, that I don’t think would be good for my body to do for hours a day.
Twinity? Been there, done that, walked in very weird straight lines along some kind of invisible isometric track, left again. It made SL seem strangely liberating.
Uhm, when i was at school ‘tossing-off’ meant something quite different to your use of the phrase – although your use of it makes sense both ways.
@ Mooncaine – I think that’s their intention. It really won’t come as a big surprise, they’re prototyping it already with IBM. And while IBM has interests in their own grid behind a firewall, they have a greater interest in selling the consulting services that would arise if SL let people host their own grids. Integration with back-end databases in a firewall-protected environment is the way it’s headed.
@ Alberik – the one thing, however, that we can say for the Lab is that unlike the dot-commers and 99% of today’s social web 2.0 sites, at least they’re making real money and not simply dreaming that if they ‘aggregate eyeballs’ that some day they’ll ‘monetize it’. They’re already monetizing it, and Mitch’s speech was, in my opinion, an attempt to let the community that helped them accomplish this know that they now have bigger fish to fry.
The gold has run out in them thar hills, they’re after oil now.
[...] Writer has an excellent write up but the take home messages for me [...]
[...] you want a much better review, go read Dusan Writer’s post on the [...]
I thought Mitch’s speech was excellent. I loved the reasoning about voice. We really fought very very hard for voice. For those who are old enough in SL, you might remember the truly early days where we were using skype or gtalk to get by an SL with had only text. It is so cool that LL has listened to customers
Evidently there is a chase for better fidelity. The education community is responsible for a significant chunk of revenue to LL so it makes sense that LL listens to them at times. The ’stay the course’ part sounded a little negative to me. I think LL is well aware that competitors are raising their heads out there and there is a quiet exploration of other ‘new’ frontiers such as project wonderland.
@ Dusan: Thanks for pointing out IBM’s interest in the back end. I hadn’t really thought of that. Makes sense, and is smart, I think.
When asked by educators about SL, I can list quite a few advantages to using SL for some teaching purposes, but I always point out 2 huge flaws: you can’t back up the content you create on your own storage devices, and you are utterly reliant on LL’s servers to be up and accessible to you. That’s a problem for many universities, because you can’t run SL classes to schedule if you can’t assure that SL will be ready when you’ve planned to teach within it. One can only regard it as an optional or supplemental tool, realizing that it might not be there when one takes one’s students online to meet there.
And if your content might be removed merely because of a DMCA claim, without warning, that’s also a problem for universities, and corporate training, too. You can’t have someone yanking your content like that and disrupting your teaching schedules. So having an SL space that can be open only to internal users, with secure access, can help promote the “3D platform” notion, whereas the centralized LL service currently can’t provide these needs reliably.
Well written Dusan. The one thing he touched on that scared the hell out of me;
“Changes to the technical platform and governance needs to evolve and move to a more decentralized structure. Announcements of this decentralization will come from Linden Lab in the coming days, weeks and months.”
Joseph Stalin would be so proud.
Cat
[...] Writer has a good summary of the speech and comments there too are equally [...]
[...] yesterday’s keynote by Mitch Kapor the big announcement was met with a yawn, but his comments on needing to decentralize the governance and Grid hinted at [...]
Didn’t take more than a day to get a sense of how many of these comments are being addressed: interoperability between openSim and SL achieved. Meaning:
@mooncaine – ability to host your own sim, use the avatar identity system of SL, move content back and forth but then have a place to store it and back it up (I assume), and be responsible on your own for grid stability. (Always better to have an IT person close at hand to blame rather than a faceless group in California).
@ Moriz – this opens more options for educators, I suppose. I wonder however whether 3D cameras and realistic avatars go very far in the education domain or whether those are more business oriented? Frankly, I think I’d find it a little creepy if my avatar looked like me, but I’d have to try it I guess to see.
[...] Dusan Writer have made this great article about the meeting – click here [...]
Shorter version of Kapor’s speech: The first wave of Second Life, drawing to a close, involved freaky early adopters using SL in bizarre ways. The mainstrem will bring in businesses, museums, colleges, government, etc.
Even shorter version: Let’s get all those messy people out of SL, and populate it by institutions.
What LL will find when they’ve kicked all the people out of SL is that, well, there’s nobody left using it.
Mitch Wagner
@ Mitch – or maybe the freaks are on OpenSim with the ability to teleport back to the main Grid to take a class or go to work in their collaborative 3D offices?
Hmmm….or maybe it’s the other way around – the freaks will be on mainland and all the money will be on OpenSim behind a firewall with the ability to teleport to mainland once they’ve clocked out from work or school at the end of the day?
How confusing. All I want to know is, if Philip teleports from SL to OpenSim, can they refuse entry unless he gets better hair?
you all have some interesting conversation going…not sure I can add too much other than a few (perhaps) relevant details:
– Nielsen data seems to match the online hours reported by LL, so looks like the IP traffic from UK to SL. So mystery still is it bots/campers or new users? When/if LL kills popular places I guess we all find out fast enough.
– Not sure I buy increase in revenue coming from inside firewall–unless dem corporate dude charge each other lindos to attend meetings or they hire escorts to support them (not a bad idea actually)
– We are seeing increase in per user/daily transaction value actually. We think this is due to increase sophistication of buyers and that our stuff is better than average. However, our cost to produce this stuff and promote it is also a lot higher yielding lower per unit profit. Basically working harder for less…
– If LL would categorize some of their transaction data we might have a better shot at understanding economic drivers. If I have more energy I would track the the mid band transactions and see if that is growing as fast as the low end stuff.
– Objects have long-ish shelf-life, but at same time the more sophisticated buyers demand constant flow of new stuff (some makers try to do light reworking on their merch but people too sharp now). Word I hear is that only way to get customers in is with a new thing–even though this drives sales of existing merch. So there is some concept of momentum that sustains existing inventory value.
inter-grid travel kinda trippy–maybe we can all go to Kpax? Seriously, the inventory issue is tough one.
After some reflection, (maybe not all that much though), I would think that transfer into a world must be tied to trusted creators. So objects must be linked to a certified, perhaps bonded even, creator, who will defend/warranty the authenticity of that object and pay penalites etc if they are not really theirs.
This scheme obviously could also include the owners as well–but it would be more complex I think to track it all down. The Creators are at a slightly higher vantage and could have 3rd party certificates etc.
Given the ebay/vuiton case, it would seem that this is sorta where even the web may be headed.
[...] Mitch Kapor’s keynote, which other than the unfortunate allusion to the fact that the early residents were pesky basement [...]
[...] its heels, an announcement with IBM that it had achieved teleport between openSim and Second Life. The announcement received a [...]
Dusan, say it ain’t so! We’ll never be friends on Facebook?? Oh, the humanity!
Yours in desparation, Chimera Cosmos (hehe)
P.S. I’m going to talk about you and Tom and Savage MInds and Second Life tomorrow at NSF. Well, not only that of course…
Chimera – I’m so sorry, but I went one poke too far I’m afraid. Perhaps in time I shall poke and be poked again, until then I am swearing off all widgets and invitations to be someone’s knight.
And please….time and SLURL!
Well, at first your reference to SLURL went right by me. But I think you were offering to be available “in world” if I get a live demo going? Thanks–I do hope to, but it’s not definite.
Where do you hang out in SL? Do you have a sim? I suppose I would start out at our new small spot on Jokaydia III by the lighthouse. It’s the lot in the far southwest corner. If we can get out to SL from Inside NSF, it would be around 1:40 or after Washington DC time tomorrow. If you haven’t been to Jokaydia, you might enjoy visiting anyway.
Jokay might be in bed (being in Australia) but she has four sims and lots of Educators from around the world in Residence. And a new Sailing Club on the west side of Jokaydia III (according to http://www.jokaydia.com). Care for a sail?
Cheers, Chimera
P.S. again…when I’m not reviewing proposals for Thurs. and still working on the ppt for tomorrow, I’ll tell you about my conversation with my Anthropology prof neighbor (80 yr old still teaching very cool lady) about the SL panel at the national meeting.
[...] perhaps puts Lively more in line with applications like Vivaty, which just today announced its availablilty embedded in Facebook and [...]
[...] rumours are true: Google’s plan to make a play in virtual worlds was unveiled today with the launch of Lively, [...]
No user generated content? No 3D building tools? No scripts? No competition.
[...] there are many posts already including TechCrunch, Information Week, Virtual World News, Gamasutra, and Dusan [...]
[...] image credit: Metaverse analyst Dusan Writer, who has some interesting [...]
Hmmm….another virtual world that offers no mac support. No thanks!
Windows only… no Linux support, and comments in the group claim that Google chose to implement Lively with DirectX, which ties them pretty tightly to Windows. IMHO, a terminally stupid choice if it’s true. Lively is of zero interest to me until I can use it.
[...] mirror reality mash-up, data flowing through gritty city streets or sleek black office towers. As I thought at the time: Google involvement with Multiverse hints at being able to walk through a massively parallel [...]
[...] Google’s going Slippcat on us maybe. If Lively is a social networking play as compared to a virtual world play, then their [...]
No Mac client and implementation via DirectX show Google is desperate to get into the virtual world game just as quickly as they can. That, in turn, reveals that the future of virtual worlds is anything but dead.
It’s truly unfortunate they have left the creative thinkers out of the box.
They’re using DirectX? I won’t hold my breath for a Mac version then.
Sometimes I envy all these choices Windozers seem have and so I fire up XP in BootCamp and suffer the abomination that is Windoze….and then, wonder why i bothered…
The Google name and bank-balance will carry this much further than it might deserve to go, but whether it’ll actually ever get anywhere worthwhile is debatable. But I wish them luck – honest i do!
hmmm…2.5D stuff is not same at all..is more like Gaia. But actually may make it harder for SL as virtual worlds still in the domain of kids games.
@ RaR – I don’t think it’s 2.5D. You can fully rotate around (right muse button). However, you’re right, it is more ‘kid-friendly’ than a serious application.
@ Eris – As I posted today, they’re going after advertising. Monetize social spaces. So I don’t see them as making a true virtual world play, rather a social networking one. In some ways, I DO hope they get a bit of traction – think of it as a virtual world orientation experience. Now, if SL would actually MARKET itself, it might be able to hook some of these 3D chatters and attract them to a REAL world. Er, real virtual world?
Yup, absolutely Second Life needs to market itself – BUT it needs to have a product worth marketing and right now that’s debatable.
First stage, get a decent and approachable user-interface…hmm, someone should do something about that…u know, like show some initiative?
LOL @ Eris – yay! A new UI! I know just the person.
[...] Post: Google’s Lively: It’s No Metaverse and What the TOS Tells Us Tagged: google, Linden Lab, lively, online spaces, Virtual [...]
I feel my 2008 prediction #1 tingling…
http://adz.secondlifekid.com/2008/01/01/2008-predictions/
I scrolled all the way to the left but i didn’t see Allegory of The Cave?
[...] to choose from Trump Tower apartments or drink Red Bull in their virtual apartments. Thanks to this writer for pointing out there are indeed plans for the virtual space to bring in some dough for the [...]
For sure Adz! And with Linden planning to sell the ability to change your avatar name to a name of your choosing, you’re dead on! Hmmmm….I’ll take Paris Hilton I think, who will you become?
Because it never crashed it’s not considered a virtual world, it’s considered utopia.
[...] messaging might be falling deaf ears, or Lively ears anyways, swamped under the giddiness over that cartoon chat competitor Lively from our friends at Google. At least they’re not Vivaty, which came out on Facebook [...]
[...] only we’d thought of it first. (And by we, I don’t mean me, I was a begrudging latecomer to seeing the need for a [...]
Actually, I call the entire Internet a glorified telephone.
Oops, sorry. I shouldn’t have rushed – I meant to check your post and link across, apologies.
[...] Contestants will have the chance to present their UI designs to the judges and parry questions from the incisive panel during an in-world event on July 22nd, 2:00 PM SLT. 800,000L in prizes will be awarded once the winners are selected. [...]
GWU is in Washington DC, not Washington State.
Am I correct in assuming that the event will be open to the general public, as well as the contestants and judges?
Too bad I didn’t hear about this sooner I have lots of ideas and think about this all the time. I’m an interface designer so this is right up my alley.
Shame more people didn’t know about the contest, it would have been a better use of the prize money. I mean no offense to the entrants just that there would have been more available options had people known.
What an impressive collection of finalists. Looking thru them, I have to agree with Pias to a degree. A “dream design” could take the best overall interface and add the best functionality concepts from other designs. My vote goes to Rheta for an overall design and functionality concept – clean, powerful and purposeful. I also love that its noobie intuitive yet not strictly a noobie design – a concept clearly learned from Apple’s philosophy that even powerful applications can be intuitive.
However, concepts like buttons that initially take you thru their own tutorial, WORN and FAVORITES tabs in inventory, and likely a host of other gems could cleanly be integrated into Rheta’s (or any!) design, making a good idea truly revolutionary.
And Dusan… If LL doesn’t pick this up, any chance that it could get designed by someone and be an optional client for purchase. I know that kind of defeats the purpose of being noob-friendly if its an interface you have to buy. However, multitudes of devoted SL users would gladly pay to have an interface like the ones you’ve gathered here. And that, perhaps, would send the strongest message of all to LL:)
Thanks for your vision, Dusan, and for putting your $ where your mouth is.
-Night
http://nightmorrisey/blogspot.com
[...] Writer’s informed us about a film made in SL to raise money for cancer research and the educational institutions that spread their wings in Second [...]
Oof, thanks Chimera my mistake.
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » Interface Design Contest Finalists – [...]
Spongebob Squarepants
pmog was was interested because it has some game elements but it seemed aimed squarely at the niche geek crowd. weblin was a never-ran – and by that i mean that i never could get the thing to run. and both of them were generally inferior.
this company came out of the blue and flanked them. it remains to be seen if their product sucks as bad as the other two but that’s a pretty low bar.
from what i saw in the sl/metanomics video there IS a connection between avatars and content – they are putting their world (which includes site specific content) on top of sites. its interesting, seemed to flow very well and was very direct. :0
I think Lively has a future, however it can take time, especially with their competition. What makes them unique, for now, is that you can embed your chat rooms in a website. But their lack of a reason to use Lively, except to just “chat,” does hurt at the moment, but because it’s new, many people are trying it.
With no real purpose except just to chat with people, it’s not much different than Microsoft Virtual Chat that I used years ago. And the only reason that was used so much then is because it was new to everyone.
[...] noter sur le blog de Dusan un lien vers cette salle de démo d’un graphiste qui a pu travailler les outils de [...]
It’s a good sign that at least some content seems to be able to be uploadable to Google. I can only wonder when this will be allowed.
Lively might still have a chance to compete with, well, whatever… we’ll have to wait and see. Yes, ugly avatars/content on very slow and heavy platform are just the marks of something new and bright that has just been launched — we SL residents are all used to it!
In fact, I believe that the early adopters of Lively will mostly be SL residents. We’re the only ones in the market that are used to subquality content, slow development time, waiting years for features, and still enjoy developing content — in SL. However, if Google is positioning itself to attract just the type of users with a very low expectancy, they’ll only be able to attract SL residents… and for that, Lively has to become a real alternative to SL, which it isn’t, and even with 200 developers at Lively (many of which content creators!), it’ll take a few years to be at that stage.
(And obviously SL will not stagnate during those years)
So it’s another race against time?… Well, Google has a huge advantage over Linden Lab: infinite resources, and no pressure to make Lively a profitable product. Almost none of Google’s products are profitable (except for AdSense/AdWords, and possibly Checkout). So they can afford to wait 2 or 3 years until Lively becomes a serious player in the VW market. Linden Lab cannot afford that — they have to continue to be profitable.
We’ll see. But the images you show are definitely interesting!
The competition in the 3D chat space keeps heating up. Look at the new XBox – avatars. Sony’s Home – avatars. Small World. IMVU. And Raph is approaching beta for Metaplace after delays and frustrations. (OK, it’s way more than chat but still, small worlds). We still haven’t seen a true “world” yet – although I keep wondering when Google earth will add avatars – see their 3D cities, at least it’s a shift towards a mirror world (though with that, I see a mirror world as quite different from an immersive one, but time will tell).
Linden needs to accelerate HTML on a prim. The ability to watch movies, surf the Web and perhaps even play games from within a world adds a richer social dimension. Not that we all want to sit at home watching TV of course. For collaboration and building branded environments, for embedding games and whatnot, and for not needing to worry about all that smut and stuff that Lively is trying to clean out (hey, we dealt with mature content long ago, it’s Lively’s turn) – HTML would go a long way to allowing both richer media in world but also importing legacy content.
Race against time, sure – but it always will be, I suppose. Lively and all those mini spaces are training wheels. Second Life is still the high-powered hog (yeah) on the block.
I have another 2 words for them – Google SafeSearch
Haha sure. I was going to give one word but thought it would be too obscure: Aristotle.
[...] Writer’s informed us about a film made in SL to raise money for cancer research and the educational institutions that spread their wings in Second [...]
Gwyneth, it is increasingly apparent to me that I’ve been missing out by not reading your blog. You are wise.
Here is my take on Lively and its users (of course, I may change my mind as soon as this afternoon): It is a cute animated interface that will replace text messaging and swallow up the SMS crowd.
Period.
We at Koinup are looking with really great interest at the Lively development……
Obviosly our approach is based on user generated contents, photography and machinima…….
So, we read with a few excitements your post about the Beta of Lively Contents Tools…..
as Gwineth we are wondering which is the exact target of the Lively project…..which is the main aim of the Google Virtual World…..
While waiting for more precise answers, we have launched a channel on the website for sharing rooms, snapshots and avatars from Lively
( http://www.koinup.com/in-lively/ )
Joe Miller promised that we will have web integration before the end of this year. I cannot point to the article, I forgot. I think I read it in Business week.
Thanks for picking this up!
Just a small correction in case anyone comes looking for me. My SL name is Arwenna Stardust (not Arweena *smiles).
Thanks
“Well – hard to say if the results are, well, because of the tools or because of the artist. What’s clear, is they’re mesh based and look kind of sloppy sculpts… The models in this example don’t look much like 3DS. Again, they’re more Plopp than Maya.”
Welcome to the wonderful world of low-polygon modelling! Judging by the screenshots, the models are actually quite good work; the artist definitely has some skill.
It’s difficult to create a complex object from only a few hundred polygons. I’d be surprised if the purple lady had more than 200 polys, or the mech more than 300 polys. For reference, the SL avatar mesh has about 4000 polys at its highest detail level.
Sure, they look pretty crude next to the 15,000-poly characters on your Xbox360, but a more fair comparison would be with some of the games of yester-year, like American McGee’s Alice (http://tinyurl.com/6qx6xc) or MechWarrior IV (http://tinyurl.com/66pzcf)
As a 3D artist (one of the many hats I wear), it’s pretty interesting that you could import arbitrary meshes into Lively. Sculpties just can’t compare to the efficiency of a well-crafted low-poly model. (Not that most models we would see in SL would be either well-crafted *or* low-poly…)
[...] they know well – the Second Life user interface and its many, um, features. The quality of the entries was incredible. Visit my previous post where you can link through to the full submissions, or for a [...]
[...] could be considered very timely that Second Life Resident, Dusan Writer, launched a UI redesign contest in recent weeks. The contest’s main goal (and criteria for judgement) is to redesign the [...]
Hi Dusan,
we helped organizing this event, that will be great. See you all on Sunday I hope.
Maybe Google will launch a beta Upload To Lively plan sometimes soon, ad supported of course.
Another quality and timely post.
IMO, nobody knows (because how can they) how this is all going to pan out.
The reason these development agencies pulled away from Second Life?
It’s not because the platform doesn’t work for branding and marketing. It actually does – you just have to have the right strategy. They pulled away because they a) more or less exhausted the number of clients willing to be taken in-world and more importantly b) the vast majority of the campaigns they developed were strategically flawed. They blamed the platform – in reality, they’re largely to blame.
Google Lively: Let us pray the same flawed campaigns developed in SL are not replicated in Lively.
Is anyone actually asking for branded spaces?
“In the meantime, when I want a place where you can chat, be cute, solve puzzles, socialize, make stuff, customize my appearance, I’ll head to Loco Pocos to see what Millions of Us and ESC and all those other gurus of virtual worlds SHOULD have built instead of the stumbling ruins that were CSI with their 100 signs and their obvious clues.”
I hear you, Dusan. Join me down at the pub, we can cry in our beer together.
Indeed now is the winter of our discontent, but keep your chin up brother – if two wrongs don’t make a right maybe the odds are better with the hundreds that are “emerging”.
if you want to break it down, let’s look at the following:
> mmos – entertainment, identity, status
> social networks: communication, identity, entertainment
> virtual worlds – identity, entertainment
> rocketon – customizable avatar (identity), chat (cummunication), games and meta-games (entertainment)
So while there may be no “real purpose” as you describe it, it seems at least as purposeful as some of the existing worlds, networks – and it turned my basic browsing experience into something that it never was before – social. granted, it may not be for everyone. there are so many new and existing me-too virtual worlds out there and this is not one of them, in my opinion.
Hope the sim won’t get too full. O_o;
[...] De New World Notes nos llega el anuncio de que el 22 de julio se presentarán las seis propuestas de los finalistas de nuevos interfases que se llevó a cabo en las pasadas semanas. Tanto los laboratorios Linden como Dusan Writer (y muchos de nosotros) entendemos que la interfase puede ser mejorada así que será interesante ver las propuestas y presenciar la interacción entre los jueces y los proponentes. Para ver un anticipo de las propuestas ver el blog de Dusan Writer’s Metaverse [...]
“Is anyone actually asking for branded spaces?”
What is this, consumer oriented thinking?! That is not what the metaverse is about! Its about 3 dimensional thinking!
Seriously though – that is of course the multi-million dollar question regarding any sort of (virtual world) marketing: What is the added value for the consumer (from the consumer perspective!), can this value be converted to value for the brand (preferably in a sustainable manner and not just a 1 time ‘trick’) and lastly does the result of this equation outweigh the advantages (vs risks) in traditional forms of advertising/branding.
I’m sure MoU and ESC are still working very hard to find the answers to these questions, and consistently found the results in Second Life lacking. By making their client accessible through flash and adding games they lowered the ‘risk’ and upped the ‘value’ for a very specific market. However, at the same time – and if I’m reading you right this might be the cause for your ‘concerns’ – slowly creeping towards that ‘proven concept’ formula, making the innovative pioneers slowly slide back into the blob of ’social media’ marketing masses.
Of course, from their perspective its just easier to find new clients for new ventures into something those clients already perceive to be at the very bleeding edge, giving them time to adopt to REAL innovation as we see it
Any metaverse company trying something outside of gaming and social networking?…
I saw an interesting post on FriendFeed from Chris Carella, Chief Creative Officer at The Electric Sheep Company.
Fun day ahead 2 meetings with 2seperate iconic game gods (& it’s iphone day)
- Chris Carella
The problem is after the initial excit…
My guess:
Raph Koster, meeting with them to review ESC’s contribution to coming out of alpha and into closed beta, and trying to assure them that Metaplace has overcome all the challenges that have led to significant delays.
And Richard Garriott, looking for a job.
You think that Google Lively is not about consumer oriented thinking?
Saturday being my day of catching up with feeds, came across the “Electric Sheep The Company”, “Roadmap to the Virtual Worlds,” and “Google Gets Into Virtual Worlds(Technology Review)”.
With all the buzz around the 2.5/3D space. Seems everyones getting funding, all one has to do is a) work on some type of embeddable system allowing avatar customization with b) brand-ability c) a chat feature to boot and or d) some new form of interconnectivity or other bells & whistles. Now that GOOG is in the space, will we be seeing more crop up? I think so …got to love the “me too’s”
But honestly, what am I really complaining about here? Sometimes it’s best to leave people to their own devices.
Granted, I’m feeling the frustration with the current perception from the current crop of VW creative agencies, the outsiders(mostly the media and ill-informed about the true dynamics of SL). Wherever I look there are people taking dumps. Residents are no different either, I’ve been guilty of it at some point or another… way back when, but it’s really getting old to the point of, where is this all taking us?
I don’t believe that any of these small-worlds will have a direct impact on SL in the long run. They fit differing market segments. Is SL the holy-grail? Highly unlikely, but I believe the platform will play a huge and important role, OpenSim init is a step in that direction — we are talking utility.
Even though I may not agree fully with the direction the space is currently going — VW creative agencies came in setup shop only to move on to other worlds, along with the glowing press coverage. They still do have a business to run and clients to service. Have to think about that cash-flow. In that regard, it seems the low hanging fruit are in small-worlds these days. Let’s not forget though they weren’t in it for the residents to start, that much is visible.
When it rains it pours they say. There is a storm coming, prepare yourself.
—
I must say I admired your init with fielding the UI redesign contest. I hope M takes you up on looking over and considering the entries.
Hey Dusan ! Really great post and thoughts…
Actually, I don’t get one point… Is brands in Virtual Worlds just a question of marketing ?
“But the true metaverse isn’t ready for us yet, they say. You can’t build brand experiences in these places. You’ll never scale to millions of users.”
I run a kind of smaller MOU or ESC, with a friend, in Europe… We are not talking about marketing with our clients (and they are global leaders too, we have some in Europe
).
We are talking about e-Learning, Knowledge Management, InWorld banking (for real
), Collaborative work, Merchandising (How-to, not products…)… and we don’t need millions of users to do that ! Actually, Second Life and Open Sim are really cool RIGHT NOW for doing these kind of things.
Virtual Worlds should not be marketing focused, which is the short way to get some revenues from brands.
I love your post and I share your vision on Lively (for example) but I think you are really upset ?!?
There’s a season after winter and I think it’s not talking about marketing. By the way, there will be many other seasons after this one and other winters for sure
[...] interfaces para Second Life, y hay una recuperación dando resultados muy interesantes, el blog de Dusan Writer Metaverse, es la que nos informa mejor de [...]
“You think that Google Lively is not about consumer oriented thinking?”
I haven’t seen it yet – Obviously Google is in a position where it doesn’t need to generate a profitable platform by itself, in fact, it doesn’t really have to be profitable at all if it gets people to sign up for a Google account so that’s fine as a business model, but as for consumer value? They couldn’t get passed ‘the level of chatting on the internet’ – and we both know the market offering this already is so crowded that if it was anyone but Google behind the platform, it probably wouldn’t have gotten a second glance.
Tools + amateurs = story for virtual worlds…
Even though Dusan Writer’s post on the explosion of small worlds and how they’ve sold out the promise of virtual worlds was a rant, it clearly described the issues at hand. The virtual landscape is splintering, increasingly proprietary, and built for…
“Real life will never be the same….”
…for those of us affluent enough to own computers (or consoles) with graphics systems onboard powerful enough to access these new worlds.
Just when we’re at the point where anyone can buy a net-capable computer for a couple of hundred $/£/€ we’re back to the old twin-track?
Isn’t technology ironic?
Tools + amateurs = story for virtual worlds…
Even though Dusan Writer’s post on the explosion of small worlds and how they’ve sold out the promise of virtual worlds was a rant, it clearly described the issues at hand. The virtual landscape is splintering, increasingly proprietary, and built for…
Aren’t you getting tired of that Gartner quote without anyone ever wondering why 80% of the internet population would be in virtual worlds, in what way (jut an account, actively using, visiting occasionally?) – I know I am.
If I were a research agency right now, I’d make some ridiculous ‘prediction’ like “the 3D internet will have more hours spend than the 2D internet in 2013″. The free links/publicity couldn’t be better and when it gets to 2013, just rephrase: ‘hours spend in the gaming/entertainment industry of the 2D internet VS 3D internet’.
[...] Dusan Writer notes Lively may be more of a social networking 3D space as opposed to a 3D world. But then as Jose [...]
[...] you all might know, Dusan Writer promised a worthwhile bounty – 800 000 LS – for the best theorical new “GUI” design for the Second Life [...]
[...] this with Dusan Writer’s long rant (I do sympathize with him) Small Worlds, Small Minds: How Brands Have Sucker-Punched [...]
Without actually reading anything, and from just looking at the pictures yet (first impression) – I think 3, 4 and 5 pop out the most to me as UIs I’d be glad to work with.
Now I’ll get to reading all this text and information.
[...] I mentioned in a previous post, Second Life® entrepreneur, Dusan Writer, recently held a contest in which Residents were challenged with the task of redesigning the Second Life® Viewer with the [...]
[...] night, each of five finalists presented their concepts to a panel of judges and then participated in a Q&A session. (I should [...]
This piece of Duranske’s is disgraceful. It waves all the usual silly magic wands in terribly misleading ways, making it seem like there are really “1.2 million people” actively involved in SL (the number of people who actually spent a dollar or more is 380,000 in the last 30 days), making it seem like 3-D worlds are “inevitable” or something “all these people are going to do” just because he needs a provactive topic for an op-ed piece and swagger around with completely fake claims that nobody at the WSJ is in a position to check. 3D worlds as distinct from games have terribly little marketshare by contrast (Wow has more than 12 million, Habbo has zillions, etc.).
Just because interesting things happen to people in VWs and they are a certain niche and market doesn’t mean the entire world will be overthrown by them. This is just premise that Duranske waves around as “indispensable” to would-be clients.
And worst of all, Duranske perpetuates these scare-mongering stories of the “Ponzi scheme” of Ginkos. I’ve exhaustively countered that just because something that behaves more like a credit union or a high-yield investment plan for 3 years before it acquires fraudulent characteristics is not something you can characterize as a “Ponzi”.
People get bilked by investors all the time. Buyer beware. Look at all those people who bought at Bear Stearns. Real life is littered with bad investments where no crime is found and where no one is prosecuted. You’d have to have more elaborate law to make this a crime. That doesn’t mean that real theft occurred as a moral violation; it did. But real theft in real life that is beyond morality and goes into legal violation simply has to have more criteria to it.
Rather than constantly fakely trying this case in the media and making wild Internet lawyer claims about it, Duranske should have really attempted prosecution of that case or others if he really thought it was justiciable. I don’t think he’d be able to. All those hookers and skaters and whatnot put money in thinking they’d get high yields and *were notified of the risks that they might not get their money back at all in clearly written notecards in every terminal*. Pointing out these facts should not be grounds to declare me as some Ponzi booster, which Duranske does over and over again; it should be grounds for caution to all people not to trust Internet lawyers any more than they trust Internet bankers.
I’m laughing my ass off at this, Dusan, because you geeks rant and rave all the time about hating silos and walled gardens, but then when commercial companies break free and create lots and lots of little closed worlds freely, to suit their purposes, which is supposedly what they are supposed to be able to do, you bitch that they aren’t all hooked up into one big One World. You and Gwyn both. You are secretly in fact flogging a giant Walled Garden in which everybody is supposed to be connected in a big commune. But…people don’t want to be connected. So let them alone.
[...] clearly what is important about virtual worlds and where these lite weight worlds fall short (see Dusan Writer) and how they can in no way realize virtual worlds’ potential as innovative disruptive [...]
[...] OpenSim is alpha still. But there is an immense pride and excitement to being there and contributing in these ground breaking days. The OpenSim Wiki is the most complete source for information on OpenSim but there is a nice tutorial here on White’s Virtual White blog on how to get your own standalone openSim server up and running in Windows Vista (hat tip to Dusan Writer) [...]
[...] creation tools are already undergoing a private beta test and you can see some of the results here: http://dusanwriter.com/?p=724. Based on the images of the initial results, Lively has a long way to go before attaining the level [...]
I agree Dusan,I also am irritated with being, “flooded with invitations and blinking banners, I’m enticed to “create my own avatar” and then discover that what they really mean is add hair to the little cartoon guy that I can call me.” Better yet is the “virtual good” I am promoted to buy, or right click, save the jpeg/gif, and email for free.
It saddens me to see that the “leaders” in virtual worlds are so miss directed, and guiding those new/inexperienced to 3d on the web towards short term “highs” with long term “what the “. How refugees from Second Life can put “Metaverse” in a post, blog, or company bio and they are the experts in 3d on the web. What real applications have these people built for the “open” 3d web? What can MoU or ESC build for someone not wanting to sit in a private playground? I have talked with representatives at both companies more than once and although they say they are “platform agnostic” they don’t say they build for the “open” web. What is worse is the growing number of “yes men/women” to these people that have not a clue but their names in the papers a lot.
Let the brands get bled by the development shops that charge for each VW presence. If they are dumb enough to not do extensive homework, they deserve it. A well known person in this space said, “It is like watching companies build sites that work only on intranets, with assets and functionality that can’t be re-used when it becomes the Internet.”
Regardless of One big world or 10k small ones, it is still in closed platforms on closed IP. Open-Sim is a step in the right direction on broken feet.
Let virtual worlds choke in commercial candy, social networks, and 3d chat. The Metaverse, like the web, is so much more than that. What most have seen so far is only a fraction of what is coming or thought possible.
Great blog and good insight. My first visit here, but not my last.
[...] found this call for papers on Dusan Writer’s Metaverse blog: Charles Wankel and Shaun Malleck have put out a call for scholarly articles for a [...]
[...] recently argued that Google’s Lively was a play on trying to monetize social media, something that the [...]
Dusan, this sort of thing is tripe: “bring us a social networking system that works, that embeds in the Web, that lets us keep our groups organized and lets us tag our friend lists.”
Nobody is asking for that, really. That is, you are asking for it as some kind of PC geek thing, but it’s not a mass demand. Trust me, if somebody has a yen for a social media network, they go on Facebook. It need not be “embedded” in SL or even related to it, any more than my favourite restaurant and my favourite friend’s house have to be embedded in my office building. It’s ok to have first, second, third, four places, real and virtual, without all this silly connectivity.
I also don’t need to drag my friends (fake friends from socmedia) everywhere with me, either.
Why tag your friends? If you have so many that you’d need to tag them, maybe they aren’t friends, and maybe you don’t need to collect them so badly — they’ll just surface. You know, Scoble was right, “Your friends will find you.” I just went on Plurk and I added a few people to watch (Scoble was one because of the value of his friends’ list to easily mind) but you know something? if there is a new bunch 1,000 fake Internet friends pulled out of the sea for their oddball qualities or interest level or shared activity, and not that old bunch from Twitter, all to the good. Variety is the spice of life.
yet let us move through different expressions of 3D environments with more ease than needing to sign up to 1,000 worlds and create 1,000 avatars.
another minority use-case yen. There aren’t any 1,000 worlds. I had to make uh…like 3 avatars lately. Because, well, there aren’t the worlds. It was pretty easy to name them all “Prokofy” and put blonde hair and jeans on them. Look, it’s not the hard thing you imagine. I can leave my office, and walk to the restaurant, and see a different set of people. I don’t even have to call the office on my cell, you know?
Connectivity is not meaning.
Wordpress did me in this morning as comments to this post were somehow truncated. Back up and running now but apologies for the mess-up. I dunno what that button was I clicked, but I shouldn’t have clicked it.
In any case, I posted the following:
I’m very often vague, and very often change my opinions on things, I find a perverse thrill I guess in not being stuck in one world view and never varying from it. So maybe I’m less than clear with what I mean by stuff, so I thought I’d throw out today’s thinking on things (with the right to change my mind later):
- By social networks and embedding on the Web, I don’t mean that SL should be embedded in Facebook or mySpace or wherever. What I mean is I’d like to see some Web-based tools. I said give us social networking tools that work, and embed them in the Web. I didn’t say embed them in Facebook. I don’t LIKE Facebook, I don’t belong to Plurk, I don’t Twitter, I don’t HAVE any friends. BUT, I would like to be able to communicate with people more easily, and I would like to be able to do that in other ways than endless notecards written and saved and then copied and dragged over while trying to scan my fairly scant friends list to highlight the right people to send the notecard to. Let’s say I’m organizing an event, or trying to take care of customers…I’d like to be able to e-mail them from Outlook maybe, or G-mail or wherever – a social/contact tool that’s Web based and is easy and lets me take care of customers and keep in touch with people and save these communications other than sorting notecards.
- Tagging friends – why is this so awful? I have some people on my list that like to know about events, others who are customers, and others who like to go dancing. Why is it some sort of geek-infested idea to say that I’d like to be able to sort my contact list? I’d like to be able to look at the friends list and quickly filter customers, send out a notice, whatever, and I shouldn’t have to pay Hippo or whatever to do that.
These things may be tripe? I don’t know. They seem simple to me. I would like it to be easier to talk to people, keep in touch, send out a group e-mail to say “gonna be late for the event” or whatever it is.
As for interop – well, that’s another post. What I know is there are really very few worlds right now. And maybe there will always be very few worlds. Second Life is a world, and I don’t really want to be running around Warcraft with my avatar, or Lively for that matter. I’d like some simple stuff if it turns out to be true that say, some companies want to privately host their servers for security reasons, and some schools want to hold classes on THEIR own servers that have been tweaked or had additional code built for whatever reason, and then the community in SL is still ticking along – I just think it would be nice if I didn’t have to log out, sign up, sign in, log out, whatever. I don’t need my inventory to go with me, and I could even live with my avatar looking different. But if I could TP without too much friction from the Grid to other 3D environments, great.
However, I’m not entirely convinced that this wish is worth it. Because in having that wish, it opens up all kinds of other issues. I’m not convinced it SHOULD be easy to move from grid to grid like we surf the Web. Having said that, the idea of interoperability seems to have merit so long as it doesn’t dilute the individual worlds, but instead makes the management of our identities and movement easier and give ME control rather than the registration whims of a collision of different log-ins and approaches.
Which brings me to walled gardens I guess. Which I confuse with magic circles. And that, plus wanting to know why I’m geeky might be posts for another day.
Whether or not any of the ideas from your contest get adopted, they’ve done one thing for those interested in the continuance of Second Life: They’ve made us think.
In fact I have a blog post on the subject bubbling away somewhere, even though it’s getting to be way too late!
Prok has been provoked to think too. Of course it would be too simple to enter the contest and express her ideas upfront the same as everyone else. No, as is Prok’s way, she’s sat back and poured scorn and vitriol on everyone else’s ideas.
You have to also appreciate that Prok’s ideas are right, always right and anyone who disagrees with her is wrong. It’s ironic that one of her favourite attempted put-downs is “Do you appreciate other people might not agree with you?”
You may not have friends (they’re your words after all, although I suspect you do yourself down), but after being attacked by Prok you have allies. Oh, and probably an appearance on the next FIC list if she publishes one soon enough or you remain on her radar.
Whatever the outcome of the contest, congratulations on a thought-provoking concept.
Second Life interface redesign…
As I’ve previously commented, there’s been a competition about redesigning the Second Life interface that is, in fact still running at the moment.
I was too busy, or perhaps too lazy, to actually enter, but I’ve had a think about what I’d like.
…
Dusan,
It’s always an eye-opening and thought-provoking experience to read your blog posts. Thanks for the cognitive workout and the chance to add my thoughts…
Having been “inSL” for more than two years now, I’ve seen and weathered a good chunk of the metaversal evolution. Like real life, SL has its moments of sheer excitement, wonder, and awe as well as frustration, anger, disappointment, even panic, and I ain’t giving up on it anytime soon. I am part of this virtual world–embedded and woven in its fabric–not merely a bunch of pixels on the screen.
Maybe that elusive “something” you sense permeating the grid (besides lag) is a kind of virtual viriditas–an essence that binds physical hardware and software with human creativity and imagination, transforming both into a rather new and undefined quintessence. It is there, but one must be quiet enough to actually find it, and it is worth seeking.
Our forays into virtual worlds lead us into uncharted territories. Day by day, we struggle to define who and what we are, a task not easily qualified or quantified. Nevertheless, we are here and we continue to seek meaning for this place. We oscillate among hope, idealism, pragmatism, pessimism, and even sometimes despair, but we keep coming back to give it another try. An adventure it is, tripe it is not…
Trying to understand the tugs between Dusan and Prokofy finally allowed me to grok what Dusan has been talking about with ‘magic circle’ and perhaps ‘augmentation versus immersion’. What I am thinking is there is a mind function that instantiates a world view, like when a kid has a couple dolls, toy animals, or action figures and goes about playing with them by imagining they each have a personality, a role, and a he enters that world he has defined with them and plays. Is this the magic circle? I am guessing we all have relative abilities and proclivities to allow ourselves to immerse.
A lot of tourists may go to the same places I have been too, but they certainly may not experience what I experience. We all may be looking at the same painting in a gallery, but how it affects us will certainly not be the same.
Just because something is tripe to one person but an compelling to another is not a usable metric until we have a way to ground the issue.
The Prok example of not needing friend’s house and restaurant embedded in the office building makes a good point. But it cuts a little the wrong way when calling “all the silly connectivity”. Being able to wear the same set of clothes as you go from one to the other, use a common currency, language set, and many other things that “connect” one place with another are being taken for granted. And once you eat that meal at a restaurant, you probably want it to stay in your digestive system as you move to the theatre. And when in that theatre, you probably want the actors to stay in their characters, and not stop every few moments to tell you “this is all fiction, we are not really these characters”.
Maybe you are a vested resident or maybe you are simply a tourist that runs in, takes a snapshot, and runs to the next thing just to say they’ve been there. If you are really allowing yourself to fully BE somewhere, of course you want to treat it as real and reinforce those connections.
[...] Life blogger Dusan Writer has written a detailed article on the impact he believes brands have had on virtual worlds and the trend toward smaller virtual [...]
Dusan, you’re so FIC. One of the surest signs of FIC is accusing me of being one. I didn’t “get invited” to this group. It’s an open group on the Internet in on the Meet-Up site. Anyone can just sign up for it. It’s on the Internet. How can you find out about it? Well, I knew none of these people, and had nothing in common with them, and some of them actively dislike me, but two years ago, I read about it on a Sheep blog or something (the founder Jerry used to be in the Electric Sheep Country) They had a meeting or two in SL itself but seem to prever to meet in Brooklyn or the Lower East Side, there’s no accounting for taste.
Yes, New York, is a big urban center that tends to attract people working on interesting things and tends to have meetings like this. In fact, some of the people in this meeting transplanted from Canada to work on an interesting project in this media capital of the world. It’s how life works.
It’s different than the FIC concept within SL, where the Lindens artificially try to create something that forms organically in RL by trying to constantly give a boost to their friends, through SL Views, Showcase, SL Certified, SL Devs, etc. etc. New York never had to invite 8 interesting people all expense paid to its shores to get started on being interesting and promote the people it likes. New York never had to select a few dozen of its special friends and only give them top coverage in the media to make sure visitors saw “the right things”. It just happened. I’m familiar with the Canadian intellectual’s lament of being “second city” etc. etc. having studied in Canada. I can only say: make your own Metaverse Meetup that is the envy of the Metarati, you certainly have plenty of your share of interesting VW people.
BTW, if you were looking for groups to join on Facebook with the word “Metaverse” in them, this same “Metaverse Meet-up” thingie would come up, open to join.
You can either use the same pass code everywhere on these throwaway social media sites of which there are millions — and there is no money on them so who cares if someone hacks your account? — or you can…gasp…ask them to resend you your password or reset it using their automatic features.
I guess I could do better on the rest of this post if it were boiled down and made more coherent; I suspect you are merely meandering to a point in which you can’t concede there are avatar rights and are demanding interoperability as a form of security of avatar rights, but avatar rights are human rights, and should reside in meat-world constitutions, not in code.
The avatar represents your location, your actions and your choices in a visual sense. Just like your RL clothes do.
@Prok
Hmmm. I think the “well not really” thing was meant as it sounds “no, Prok is not FIC”. If you actually think I’m pouting about not being there, um….well, OK. Geez, it’s true what they said – irony really is dead. I’ll be more careful next time.
I explain what the pass code issue is, for ME, and I suppose I’m different somehow, in my own mind anyways. But something I don’t understand is why when it comes to technology you seem to think it’s fine that we should need to do some work for it. Easy technology may be an oxymoron but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be desirable. You want the new user orientation to be better, why can’t the rest of the Web. Why is it that it’s fair to decry friction within Second Life but when it comes to trying to make the rest of the management of our Web experiences easier it’s a non-starter?
I have no idea how to respond to what you guess is the point of the post. You conclude without reading that I can’t concede there are avatar rights and then conclude that I probably want to secure them. So your conclusion is, um, I don’t think avatars have rights but I support interoperability to protect those rights that I don’t believe they have.
As far as believing that avatar rights are human rights and should reside in meat-world rather than code, then I suppose the same is true of objects. They’re property and should reside in law rather than code, correct? So both my avatar and me, the content creator, should call our lawyers is the idea?
You’re wrong about what I conclude.
@ Tateru: I disagree with the analogy although I suppose I agree with the rest of it, with a particular focus on the fact that my avatar is also the way in which I’m able to interpret locations and their written and unwritten rules and code.
My avatar is a representation of those things, but implying that it’s like a shirt denies that the avatar extends beyond how I appear in a space. A shirt makes me look a certain way in the world, is something I invested in, but it doesn’t represent anything else, including my relational claims in the space and what I’m arguing is also the vehicle through which I carry the written and unwritten contracts and values by which the space accommodates me.
In your analogy, crossing the border from one space to another isn’t about the avatar, because that’s just a shirt, unless the shirt itself signals location, action and choices to others, and is the recipient of the same.
My wider point however, isn’t whether the avatar is a shirt or has rights or carries a passport, although those things are in some way a component – my wider issue is that the idea of interoperability is being driven by code, and that the coders are offloading the responsibility for the policies within these spaces by saying “we’re not worlds”. I don’t want the coders running so far ahead of policy that they then say “oops, sorry, too late, the code wasn’t built to accommodate that”.
It’s not the shirt that’s the issue, it’s whether the worlds will be properly constructed to let me know what their dress code is, with sufficient flexibility and transparency for both nudist colonies and black tie affairs.
Sorry about the incompleteness of the analogy. If I refer to your RL body, instead of your RL clothes then people generally get horribly confused in the main.
As for worlds. Can we define ‘world’ for the sake of this discussion, before we try to decide whether something is (or should be) a world or not? It seems a bit pointless otherwise.
Any of these definitions? http://www.yourdictionary.com/world
[...] my perspective (and it is solely MINE) I welcome the Small Worlds, as these worlds will drive new immediate revenue’s to companies on both sides of the [...]
I’m not sure any of those definitions apply because while perhaps not as confusing as the clothes/real body analogy, I don’t mean when I use the term world when I refer to virtual space as being parallel to THE world. I say this because although the world has spaces in which there are norms, codes, laws and cultures with which I interact and which inform my choices, there are also spaces in which these things are not present.
And I know the definition of this has been argued endlessly by other far more capable minds than my own. For most people it really is as simple as what Prok says: it’s a space, it has people, and there’s drama (the latter maybe not tongue-in-cheek at all, because drama implies that there is something beyond just people in a place that causes it).
In defining a world versus a platform, however, I’m going with the definition that a platform is the code that enables representations and interactions with them and that’s pretty much it. The world arises when norms, limitations and policy is combined with this ability to enable representations and interactions to create a space in which my ability to make choices and enact them is influenced by the design of these decisions: to have commerce or not, to enable object permissions or not, to have a governance model of some kind, to deploy a terms of service, whatever – the list is endless and is partly why I posted at such tiring length, to make the point that these things are subtle as well as obvious.
Now, as I say, far better minds than mine have grappled with this issue of what a virtual world is. The word “world” is not analogous to the real one. But certainly something becomes a world when the code is extended past display (the shirt) and into policy, or if policy is too wonky, when the code is extended with decisions that people make that influence my ability to make choices.
I’m taking for granted by the way that the code, or the platform, enables what I consider almost “costs of entry”: the space is persistent, more than one person can be in the space at a time, and the space provides a sense of locality of some sort, perhaps like the tree that Prok refers to.
Arguments over whether that space needs to be 3D or 2.5D or even 2D don’t seem relevant to me, except if you split hairs over what ’sense of locality’ means – if it doesn’t feel like a place, then it probably isn’t one, it’s a Web site.
I’m also not entirely sure whether we need a definition of avatar, although obviously there needs to be a connection to “being in the space” – Lively has a concurrency limit, but you can still be in a Lively room past concurrency, it’s just that your avatar doesn’t appear – are you “in” the virtual space if your avatar doesn’t rez?
So before I go on with my next post
I’ll leave it like this:
- A platform is the code that creates a persistent location in which there is a sense of place, and where one or more person can be at a time.
- A world is the extension of this code through any means which establishes a layer of restriction on what can be done in that location. For example, through additions to the code (commerce, identity, permissions, etc), to governance (terms of service, codes of conduct, law), or to actions by the individual hosting the platform.
Finally, while restriction sounds limiting I don’t mean it that way. Restrictions can be appended based on the idea of encouraging or allowing possibilities – the possibility for commerce, for example, or the possibility of creating a safe space by restricting membership.
OK. Well. Let me call it my working definition with the right to append.
Aren’t restrictions inextricable? Some come from the limitations of underlying technology, some from physics and all that, some are from the necessity of the underlying operator’s need to stay in business.
Of course, other restrictions are *chosen*, and in the face of some of the unavoidable limitations, there are a number of possible paths that can be chosen. Currency, for example, is commonly selected as a limiting or barrier device (either as a fiat, or as a gold-standard – or occasionally as a fiat-gold-standard currency, depending on what limitation is being addressed).
I confess I’m not convinced yet that the definitions of world vs platform above don’t have a majority overlap. Hmm.
How about ‘Environment’ instead of ‘World’? That’s the traditional term (the ‘World’ term is more of a marketing slang).
Tateru:
OK, sure, I see your point. And maybe we’re agreeing in a sort of round-about way. I’m willing to call it an environment, but that also leads me, by the mistake of taking an analogy too literally, into thinking of a 3D space as being more a “place” than a “place with rules” and maybe that’s because I associate environments with a spectrum ranging from a clearing in the woods to a shopping mall, although I suppose both have rules and norms, it’s just the source that’s different.
But I still feel this is important, this need I have to parse the language, because in the process of coding an environment at some point it moves from being a platform into something more. I’m willing to acknowledge that a platform can be coded simply to make a space, but I’m trying to point out that at some point that code is appended with decisions, in particular decisions about the underlying operator’s need to stay in business, and that as soon as these decisions are made they intersect with the complex ownerships and rights that I have which are represented through the ’shirt’ of my avatar and its ability to perform choices.
If we code the platform and say “look, it’s just a platform, it’s not a world” then my question is two-fold:
1) are you sure you’re not either ignoring or off-loading the range of decisions that eventually make that platform an environment or world, and by doing that are you sure you’re not neglecting to build something into the code that will later allow a range of choices and transparency, and
2) who WILL make these decisions, because I’m assuming that somehow we’re supposed to leave it to all the individual platform owners. If this is the case, and the philosophy is to let the individual platform owners decide, then I’d argue that the code should be crafted in a way that gives consideration for how to create transparency around these decisions that platform owners will make but secondly, as I’m making clear in talking about my avatar, this approach neglects that there IS a commonality to the proposed use of the platforms, which is the ability of my avatar to move from one to one and to interact upon them.
Actually, you *were* pouting. And, umm, nobody is asking you to be careful, to apologize, to behave like you are in some horribly politically correct landscape. It’s a very old, old, threadbare, worn and tired joke — turning the tables on me and saying “Oh, you’re the real FIC”. So, I carefully rebut it any time I see it, because it’s bullshit. My analysis is correct — the FIC has turned out to be worse than anyone could ever have imagined. I don’t enjoy any privileged position, except that I live in New York, which isn’t about the SL FIC but just about moving to New York from the sticks, as anybody could with enough drive.
You’re not making sense at all ascribing to me some viewpoint that doesn’t want to make “the rest of Web experience simpler”. Huh?
Again, literalism is the downfall of the Internet. You are trying to secure avatar rights THROUGH Interoperability, making the right to move through worlds something inherent inside code. And my point is that avatar rights CANNOT be housed in code or they will always be at the whim of coders. They must be housed in real life law; and indeed, they are already, it is a question of gaining their validation.
Tateru can’t be allowed to impose a connotation of “world” always with “commercial marketing use”. Sorry, that’s illegitimate argumentation from a leftist position. Worlds are worlds, whether commercial or not. This constant tekkie nit-picking on this question is really only about one thing: they wish to label everything a “platform” so that then code is law, and they as coders are utterly on control.
If they had to concede something that is socialware, that is somewhere beyond software as we know it, because the public gets to participate in its making and its constand revision, they would be ceding their utter control. And that’s why they find this so hard going. Too bad. It has to be wrested from their prying little hands.
There is a conflict between the rights of platform
makers who want freedom of expression and the rights of avatars who want to protect IP, content, and secure due process especially with things like bans and inventory confiscation. But that’s ok, this is the same conflict between the state and the individual as in RL, and it simply must be fought until the right balance is found and the game gods’ overweening powers are curbed.
@ Prok: Agreed. However, I am NOT trying to secure avatar rights through interoperability.
While I’ll post on it in more tiring and lengthy detail, my point is that the code is in danger of derailing the ability to synch real world rights with what’s possible in virtual worlds. The coders say: you can’t ever really secure digital objects from theft so we’ll make a half-hearted attempt to protect those objects but you’re better off hiring lawyers. The platform owners then take this code and say “well, I’d like to protect objects but this code does a half-ass job of allowing me to do that so why bother”. And then the user who actually MAKES the stuff looks around and goes “well, hold on, where’s MY recourse in all of this – the courts?”
The courts then circle back to the code and say, “sure, we’ll protect your rights, but can you show me a paper trail, a water mark, a policy somewhere so that we know that a crime has been committed” and everyone looks at each other and shrugs and says “um, well, we never thought of all that, or it was too hard to do, or information needs to be free anyways are you kidding?”
Interoperability doesn’t solve any of these issues. My point about interoperability is, if you’re going to be redesigning or designing the metaverse so that avatars can teleport from place to place don’t you think now is the time to also think about these wider policy issues that will let us actually synch all this coding that’s going on with law? Otherwise we’ll find ourselves, much as we have on the broader Web, at the mercy of the decisions that were made when the thing was built where the motivations were use and profit (in its different guises) with a passing glance given to the folks who would actually be affected by it and using it.
My initial post on avatars isn’t to claim avatar rights, but to try to paint a picture of the many ways in which my avatar is more than just an asset that gets passed through protocols from grid to grid. My avatar is the embodiment of my domain knowledge, contains elements of my identity and the ability to authenticate and transmit that identity, and serves as my contractual proxy with platform owners whose policies can be explicit but which are also often vague, lacking enforcement, or where there is information about the spaces that are guarded by the platform owners.
So long as my avatar is treated as a shirt that I put on which needs to be passed from grid to grid, then the folks who are coding the ability to do that deny there are more than protocols and authentication that need to be considered. These other things that my avatar represents are inherent to my embodiment in virtual spaces and I’d prefer they weren’t left to individual platform owners to sort out, because they have a tendency to be vague or obscure.
While an open metaverse can be a good thing – the more the merrier, I guess, there’s a lot to be said for thinking through in more detail the centralized functions. Second Life works, in part, because there ARE centralized functions, but by calling openSim a platform on which could sprout a million worlds, so too will sprout a million decentralized functions, functions which are, in my mind, central to my ability to protect the integrity of the many things embedded in my avatar besides what kind of attachments I’m wearing.
Ultimately, I suppose that whoever creates the platform, it’s the operator who ends up deciding what conditions will create the environment that they build on top of it. At least, that’s how it has been so far with earlier platforms.
Whatever the core platform has or doesn’t have is added, removed, altered or amended by the operator, within feasible limits.
[...] is all so exciting,” says Mitch, “The metaverse is growing up and people are learning and universities are coming and [...]
[...] OK, so look – I like it so far, nothing wrong with it, but I posted previously: [...]
[...] from Age of Conan for Second Life I’ve called Second Life a Story Box. And by calling it that, I don’t just mean that it’s an immersive playground for being [...]
[...] is crucial from the very first hours in Second Life. The post by Prokofy Neva is a reaction on the Design Contest one finds at Dusan Writer’s Metaverse. Neva asked newbies about obstacles and the user [...]
If you don’t pay attention to the community and the economy that helps to sustain that community, you end up not having anything to do in the daytime either, much less at night.
Members of Second Life’s Concierge Support group have in recent days been witness to members entering the chat literally crying because the economy has turned on them and they must abandon their land.
Mind you, this really has very little to do with the fact that the US economy is in a recession, it is simply poor judgment and execution on the part of Linden Lab. This poor judgment is backfiring with premium accounts and overall membership declining while Linden Lab grasps to assure that all is well by cooking the books on things like total square meters of its virtual world increasing. This trumped up statistic is meaningless given the fact that these numbers include openspace regions (which can sustain only 1/4th that of a full region that happens to have the same land mass)combined with huge swaths of mainland that remain unsold. Since Linden Lab can print up land at any time they could abuse the hell out of that statistic anytime they feel like it. Hey! Report due for Q3, flood the mainland so it appears that we’re growin’ dude.
Yeah, that’s a good idea. Stick your finger in the dike instead if fixing it.
But, why would something like this make someone cry? It is a game, a platform, just pixels, correct? I mean it doesn’t cost anything to enter Second Life and participate. Just cut your losses and hang out without the land you had to abandon. You can find someplace to mark as your home location. All your friends will still be there. It will be liberating. No more land fees to worry about! No more tenants asking you for help. Heck, you can do whatever you want now! Lord knows, if you need room to stretch out there are acres and acres of unsold land that you can just stand around on. Your world now depends upon your imagination even more because you can no longer build or run scripts on land that is set for sale. The sandboxes are too few and too full for you to rez anything. In fact just about anything that you want to do that will make Second Life rewarding and exciting for you now lives only in your imagination because you have no means to see them through to fruition.
Guess what? You could do the exact same thing, even if you didn’t have access to a computer at all. Just stand out in your front yard and maybe someone will pass by for you to chat with. You may even get creative and draw on the sidewalk with colored chalks.
You certainly aren’t going to buy any of that super cheap land in order to accomplish those things because you have already been violated and filled with mistrust. When land is part of the economy, you have no problem paying for land. It makes sense to you because it has a value based upon its location, good neighbors and support for your interests. It isn’t just a parcel pressed out and set for sale at a cheap price.
When we have depleted land and there is a need for expansion, certainly more land should be created. And that land will sell at a good fair price because at that point people will be looking to build out a community fueled by an economy that requires premium memberships in order to hold that land. If prices get out of hand, printing more land is certainly a way to offset that mania, but you do it in a prudent manner, you don’t just dump a continent. You aren’t doing anything to build your customer base that way. You are running them off in hopes of duping new residents into filling up all of that cheap land. What is it that you hope to engage these new residents with and retain them if you have run off the residents that are creating and building a world that will encourage new residents to participate?
Unlike Facebook, Second Life really is Social Networking. You must immerse yourself into the community and network to learn things and make things happen on a scale that is far more engaging than Facebook can even hope to offer.
Facebook is ludicrous. It is not Social Networking. There is absolutely nothing that you can accomplish on Facebook that you cannot accomplish with an Instant Messenger and e-mail running. I can send you really cheesy graphics of flowers, cakes and ice cream all day long in e-mail and pester you to look at it really fast and send something just as ugly back to me in instant message. How is that engaging me? How am I learning more about you and your interests on a passionate and meaningful level if all you are doing is sending me random bits of nonsense that was created by someone other than yourself? It doesn’t happen. The only reason YOU have Facebook is because it is free and someone you know also has it. The only thing you can really say for Facebook is that it is a glorified profile page.
Second Life will go right down the toilet if they want to turn it into Facebook and it becomes a platform where you just sign on and rez a few prims on your super cheap land that lets people know you like jazz but hate cauliflower and your favorite color is red.
Would that be any less boring or useless to you because it is three dimensional?
Dusan is right. It is the emotional transactions that make a virtual world and in fact, social networking engaging and rewarding. We want to see things that we have not imagined ourselves or see things that we have imagined presented in a way that we had not imagined. This is compelling. This fuels our own imaginations so that the world is enriched beyond a virtual space. We put these ideas to use in scenarios that benefit our health, education, our social interactions, the ways in which we express our humanity through the arts and the way we govern ourselves. Strangely enough, it seems like that is the frontier that has always engaged us “hippie types” and still seems to engage everyone on the planet. It is a frontier that should never cease to exist. It is the frontier that the educational facilities are looking to explore and they are vaulted for doing so. There is no reason to disenfranchise the rest of the community when our goals are the same.
With regard to M Linden’s initial awareness of the passion in Second Life, I will venture back to the Concierge Chat in Second Life. I have been a member of this group for a long time now and I have seen virulent passion for SL and its future. Residents were hopeful and encouraged by the directions that Second Life was taking because the welfare of the community was looked after. Oh yes, we had issues crop up that were hard to deal with and that hurt the economy but somehow they worked themselves into states that we dealt with on different levels although there was no real solution. Still the residents believed and stood fast for the Lindens who were also residents at one time and just as passionate about Second Life as they were. You could not ask for better support and encouragement from your customers. They stood ready to weather anything. They encouraged their friends and family to join. They were the very best form of advertisement that Linden Lab had going for them. They created things, they sold things, they raised money for charities, they enabled the disabled, they found new ways of teaching, they did well for themselves, their families and the people they loved and they got positive media coverage for doing so. It was not the media coverage of corporations coming into Second Life and leaving because they did not have the time or understanding to immerse themselves into the community only to leave in a huff and make negative statements about Second Life. M Linden never saw that! And I am very sad to say that if he were to enter that chat now, he would see a very ragged group that feels that all of the support and passion they had for Second Life is being ripped right out from under them. They still KNOW that this is a great idea. They still LOVE the very notion that there are endless possibilities. But the fact that they can no longer participate in this world that they built makes them cry. The fact that friends and colleagues that depended upon them to provide a safe and sane place for them to work on their projects have lost their land as well makes them cry. No one wants to disappoint anyone. No one wants to feel that kind of hurt and shame. No one that lent their industry and support to Linden Lab should have to feel that shame if Linden Lab is indeed a profitable company. After all, if the residents didn’t build an interesting world, no one would have taken notice in the first place. The fact that Linden Lab never leveraged the ravenous support of their customer base any more than they did is a mistake they can’t undo. Now the Concierge Chat seems filled with bitterness where there was such joy and hope. I have heard residents say that Lindens had behaved rudely to them. Now I cannot say whether this rudeness was reactionary or not, I simply don’t know. I have never had a Linden be rude to me. I absolutely value each and every one of the friendships and interactions that I have with those that I have met and know. Still.. it worries me.. I had never heard anyone say such a thing before and it comes on the tail of a few other stories that I heard about Lindens listening in on private conversations and seeking retributions with their alts. I cannot vouch for the validity of such things but when you hear them from people you have known and trusted for some time it just kind of turns your stomach. I don’t want those things to be true. No one does.
What happened to our community? Does anyone remember when the Lindens used to send out notices that there was a dance taking place or that Jeska and Bub were arranging an event or a contest? When who you were as a person and a creative, contributing entity to the community really meant something to the company? You know? I think I’d like to be part of a Social Network where people care about me and I am more than just a picture on a profile that you click to make a few cents for an ad company. That is what Social Networking is all about isn’t it?
Agreed. Lets not underestimate the value of socializing and sharing experiences, or even ‘doing nothing’ together. In a world where analysis and metrics and key performance indicators more often than not rule, it is the simple connectedness of people that bring meaning instead of measuring it. Yes, indeed, the telling of our stories…
Sure, orientation process needs to be better, but what is the draw to the virtual world? Flying and UGP (user generated porno)? LL made a lot of cover stories in 2007 with land speculation and lonely hearts stories–what is the message for 2009? Wondrous things from 18-20 universities? Seems a little vague to me. Also the “enterprise market” is pretty long stretch for an organization without service level agreements or a development roadmap.
SL non-land economy is stalled. There is a content glut and without noobs, all the paniced merchants are droppping their prices. This would actually make it a good buyers market if there were some new buyers in.
Land renters to Dirk’s point, better make sure they know if there landlord is going to keep their sims going. Could be that mid-month they find out that the sim is simple gone. Make sure you got copies of stuff out on the sim otherwise it could all just zap.
Seems like the complexity at LL has outstripped the management capability.
[...] night, the final presenter in Dusan Writer’s UI Redesign Contest reviewed her design concepts in front of the panel of [...]
It seems one of the questions is what is the “life” of second life. Examples of this deliverable that provides the juice that makes SL compelling are things that I find easy to get agreement from people in SL, but when I try to explain to a friend or colleague that has never heard of SL, I find myself stymied. There’s no way I have tried comparing to Facebook, Myspace, Twine, Linkedin, IRC, and so forth. That is like comparing the sensations of sitting on a dead motorcycle to riding one full bore.
When I was reading Dusan trying to tilt the focus by saying what happens “at night”, I recall telling people that SL has replaced the passive alpha-wave inducing television with a much more interactive world. I have told people that for me, SL can be like a television soap opera or sit-com where I can be one of the character/writers. Not only am I able to see places, people, and stories beyond my living room, but I am able to interact and build a story together.
[...] in Failed Screenwriter to keep on topic and not be too far out for some readers. But after seeing Dusan’s rant on small worlds and oddly enough Scoble’s post about how the blogging community has failed, I feel the need [...]
[...] though Dusan Writer’s post on the explosion of small worlds and how they’ve sold out the promise of virtual worlds was a rant, it clearly described the issues at hand. The virtual landscape is splintering, [...]
Kind of reminds me of this app kids are using in schools — http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVFsxev-2sk
Rain rain go away come again a NEVA day.
People like Prok, need people like Prok, to keep people like Prok, in check. A self-fulfilling prophecy if you will.
Eloise is right, you will have “allies”, but so will Prok from his side of the fence..One mans trash is another mans prime-time tv.
I read both, when I want a “personable” view on the world, a humanist approach (there is no spoon), I read Dusan; Ciaran Laval, Sarah Nerd, Delicious Demar, even Torley to an extent..etc etc. But when I am in “work mode” or seek a hard and fast opinion (black OR/AND white, no grey), I know I can trust Prokofy; Nobody Fugazi, Benjamin Duranske etc. I may not agree with a single word any of them say at times, but at least the thoughts are provoked and I can form my own opinions and I am better for knowing those of others.
As you can see, I do alot of reading, so I apologise for being 6 days late with a response…I’m still catching up!!
The Lindens once talked about a Web project called my.secondlife.com which, if I recall correctly, was some sort of Web-based extension to SL. Maybe you could edit your SL Profile on the Web, or invite someone to be on your SL friends list from the Web, or send a group notice from the Web, etc. Here’s a link: http://tinyurl.com/5s2quv
[...] and explanatory. However I think I sacrificed some of my personal stake in doing this. After seeing Dusan’s rant on small worlds and oddly enough Scoble’s post about how the blogging community has failed, I feel the need [...]
[...] told that openSim is a platform, not a world. And I have this idea that my avatar travels in worlds, not across a platform, so I want to know how I’m going to [...]
I am mostly responding to your last question, Dusan, but other parts, like mention of “semantic web”, lined up some thoughts… I remember a conference with some of the semantic web bleeding edge/www.w3.org types of people pointing at their FOAF/RDF/URI and emphatically saying, “that’s not a URL; that’s *me*”, and I could not grok how they could think this.
Perhaps I have been over-drilled from the corporate personal privacy protection types that tell me I mustn’t put personally-identifiable information about myself or colleagues on the web, yet the idea of a web resource that can track me through my personal and professional network of friends and associates, my interests and movements, does not sound wise.
I know we need to redefine freedom and privacy in a general sense, and this is not my topic.
What Dusan got me thinking about having avatars that move through platforms, worlds, domains, and what-have-you reminds me of the concepts of having methods for not only representing ourselves to others, but also how to represent our interests. For instance, I have a yahoo launchcast music account that I have entered thousands of ratings for songs, artists, albums, and music genres; this is combined with collaborative filtering so now my “radio station” plays things I like, avoids things I don’t like, and tries to find new things I’d like based on commonalities in taste shared with the crowdsource data. Same kind of thing goes with my Amazon tastes. These could be characteristics of our avatars, our fingerprints of interests that help us filter in the stuff we are likely to want to see or know, and filter out that which we don’t need or want.
I am not sure if Dusan was visualizing this dimension of self-encapsulation that we do to create our avatar(s), but I know this is a functionality that has been attempted before and I think it still has potential.
I like being Pais, in part because he is a simplified version of me. When I do things as him I don’t have to account for all the other aspects of my other selves, roles, and responsibilities. It should also be assumed by anyone that trying to connect Pais to my RL counterpart is taboo except in extenuating circumstances. Sort of like a famous author of literature may want to use a pen-name to write some pulp fiction for a lark.
The birth of the metaverse is a great opportunity to correct some mistakes made with the internet and web. However I’m afraid some issues you mention will prove more difficult to solve – it isn’t like we’ve solved them in the real world either. Generally the more secure a system is to protect privacy and assets the more inflexible it is. Part of what makes theinternet so powerful is it’s openness, the same openness also leaves it open to the escalating battle between spammers and technologists. This battle is not without its casualties – newsgroups fought an escalating battle with spam and eventually lost. Other technology will also fall. As they say, the strong survive. I think the ability to coup withspammers and the like is the true test of any new technology.
Everything comes with trade offs. We can beat CopyBots if we restrict access. But this is a decision Linden Labs has chosen not to take as it seriously restricts the platform. Perhaps the OpenSim community can find some technology that can solve the issue, but I doubt it. I’m sure Linden Labs investigated many possible technologies and found them lacking. Ultimately many of these issues end up in trade offs – trade offs better set by an open and innovative competition. The metaverse community will need to learn how to develop within those trade offs.
Or impossibility. The answer is that you start something, you start something else, you pay proper attention to RL, and then you cycle back around again.
That’s why stuff takes time in SL. It’s a world of both accelerated and elongated time schedules.
[...] great about the metaverse is being twisted for corporations. He echoed that feeling in his post – Small Worlds, Small Minds: How Brands Have Sucker-Punched Virtual Worlds. The brand agenda has siphoned talent from the metaverse to create the equivalent of commercial [...]
Wait… there’s more than one real world? I feel so under-subscribed!
[...] long time ago I posted that “The World is Not Empty”. And it isn’t. Second Life is much like the real [...]
Why is everyone apparently so desperate to shove everything into a web-browser? Why is that better than having a separate purpose-built client?
Are they preparing us for some hideous future where we’ll all be sitting in front of dumb web terminals with no meaningful access to the computer running behind the scenes?
Or does some idiot actually think that there would be a point to sitting in front of Firefox running a portal into SL in which you can see a prim with a webpage being displayed on it?
Wouldn’t that be the virtual world equivalent of disappearing up your own ***?
Tell you what…
Go look at the ones you can embed in a browser and then go look at Second Life. I can embed something that looks slightly interesting for 2 minutes in a browser or I can head into Second Life and have a world that looks far more interesting for hours, days, weeks, months and years. I tried WoW and although the game play wasn’t for me, the world looked shed-loads better than Lively, Small Worlds etc. and the ways to interact were more organic too. No-one thinks it’s odd to down the WoW client, why should they think it’s odd to download the SL client?
I might not be in the majority here, time will doubtless tell, but in this day and age, what’s the problem with downloading a client?
I agree Eloise and I think Philip makes that point. But I also think that the Lab needs to make a compelling case for, as you say, a world that’s “far more interesting” other than that it generates shadows and light don’t you think? Because Philip is put in the hot seat here and he can’t come up with a nice crisp way of saying something along the following lines:
“3D environments in a browser are not worlds. Lively is not competition to Second Life, it’s a chat client with elements of 3D. Second Life and the grids it will connect to are worlds. The advantage of being in a world is that it provides a rich cultural context for working, socializing and networking with people, and offers deep tools for visualizing content, creating new dynamics for education and collaboration, and is a LOT more fun to boot.
“Now – I have no problem with the idea of SL in a browser and we’re working on that. And kudos to Lively for letting people decorate their rooms and to chat, it will be interesting to see whether their ad-based model is intrusive or not to the user.
But my BELIEF is that only in a true 3D world as compared to a thin chat client with a few 3D properties, do we see the emergence of networked communities of PEOPLE who are able to create a huge range of environments and activities. Just as hyperlinking pages created a new way of thinking about how to access content when the Web was born, 3D worlds are creating a new way of thinking about how people connect, share, create and develop value.”
Ah, Dusan, you’re becoming Toby Ziegler to Philip’s PoTUS…
I do get your point – but it’s also true that virtual worlds will be judged by a mainstream audience (the audience they crave so badly) on how ‘realistic’ they appear to be. It’s not the only criteria but it will be one of the biggest. Otherwise it’s just a ‘game’ or a cartoon to many people.
It’s why Windlight was (ultimately) the best thing to do and why shadows will be too – and I’m not ignoring the technical difficulties or the elitism they create, my computer really struggles with Windlight too.
It might be boring or frustrating to some people but ‘real’ will sell – you don’t have to explain ‘real’.
OMG….I’m becoming Toby? OK. I quit.
But still – explain why ‘real’ matters again?
I just don’t understand why people even care about this type of thing anymore. Look at cultures where everyone is exposed to sexual stuff in normal, casual, ways through their entire life. All those people are perfectly fine people, and those societies seem to be doing quite well. The world doesn’t end when a kid takes a peek at a breast or a dancing penis. Maybe more and more games should be like this so it will become IMPOSSIBLE to stop it. Then, people won’t care, it won’t be ‘dirty’ anymore. Sometimes people are just completely brainless.
*Nods*
It’s the word “downside” that I find disturbing. Not to mention the word “control” – I mean, it’s not so much control in most cases as it is flagging it so that parents who so choose can make sure they have a way of making decisions with their kids.
Anyways. Don’t get me started, I’m from Canada, where sex is as natural as ice hotels and strong beer.
How do we know that ‘real’ sells? Or does LL have a hammer so they’re determined to make SL a nail?
Incoherent communication can mean the communicator is unskilled. It can also mean the content of the communication is itself incoherent.
The push for real drives the requirement for higher and higher system requirements. That’s more than faintly weird strategy for a company that’s already hit a concurrency ceiling, that claims to have a focus on education, and that claims to value its existing user base.
A friend recently rezzed an avatar. She spent about a week putting in serious SL time. She’s tech-savvy and -friendly, probably the upper end of the middle income group. I have her email this morning saying she’s deleted her account because her year-old computer barely meets the system requirements now and she’s not prepared to replace it to meet the system requirements one or two months down the road. She’d rather buy a new boat.
A light client has now been promised forever. Where is it? And what is the evidence that a static, or even shrinking, user base is asking for real?
I’m not exactly saying that there’s an audience baying for ‘real’ right now – I’m suggesting a future mainstream audience will take ‘real’ as a given, otherwise they’ll just (continue to) see SL as some kind of aimless game for losers. We’re promising them a virtual WORLD, so they’ll expect it to look and act like The World.
I read a quote the other day about UI design – I forgot who said it – but it was basically “The best interface is the one the user already knows” or in other words, don’t re-invent the wheel. The best experience for new users in virtual worlds is one that closely mimics the real world we’re already in because it needs little explanation, they already know most of the rules.
Whether we like it or not (i’m personally not a big fan!) there are a lot of people running around in SL trying to dignify the whole thing and make it seem more serious and business-like than it actually is. Whether it’s giving their suit-wearing avatar a briefcase or spewing pretentious faux-analysis the drive to ‘real’ is very real!
Are shadows a big part of that? Not in themselves, but the more real SL (or any virtual world) looks the more you notice the things that are missing. Sooner or (probably) later, the shadows will appear and we’ll all complain about the client lag they cause – but we’ll leave them switched on anyway…
very interesting.
I could disagree more, Eris. ‘because it will fly in the media’ is not a particularly good reason to do anything, let alone ground the strategy of a company’s long-term growth. Moreover, there’s no real evidence that photorealism, which is what I think you mean by looking real, is a persuasive media strategy anyway or that games, a sector showing a growth that is both explosive and sad contrast with SL, somehow suffer universal deprecation. There’s also the distinct problem that the kinds of marginal ‘reality gains’ that LL is offering don’t address the fundamental problems of the codebase.
The education’s sector cannot afford ever-increasing investments to keep up to spec. Business can, but they are not going to accept the existing crash rates or anything anywhere near the existing crash rates. The average user, presumably as opposed to fools like us, is even less likely to meet spec than we are.
I’ll prolly keep shadows switched on as well. My worry is whether the shadowy strtaregy will lead to someone having to turn out the last light.
Put it this way, assume there is a number of potential users who will driven away by ever-growing system requirements, the people who’d prefer a new boat. If that number is larger than the number of users looking for windlight or shadows then LL is, to put it mildly, in deep doodoo. I suspect my number is larger than LL’s number, but the problem is that the company does not even appear to be considering anything apart from more of the same. And that’s why we get these bizarre messages from the company.
When Mitch Kapor gave his good-bye and thanks for all the fish speech at the close of SLB5 he did an admirable job or precisely the defining the group who keep their computers up to spec no matter what,. He said adios to them and eagerly welcomed in the education, business and ‘average user’ audiences. Incomprehensible messages can mean the content is strange, or that the messenger is uncomprehending.
Tahnks for posting
I don’t think we’re disagreeing about LL’s garbled message, whether it stumbles from the lips of Philip Rosedale or Mitch Kapor. You’ve highlighted the problems of their education strategy – try to flog SL to the sector least likely to have the necessary hardware. I agree that there’s no evidence that photo-realism sells games or VW’s – quite a lot of evidence to the contrary given the success of Wii.
But I still think that the drive to photo-realism (much better term for it) is probably inevitable and unstoppable – if only because we don’t know what else to do! I don’t think it’s much to do with marketing strategy, but I do think that an eventual mainstream audience will assume stability (as u said) and photo-realism are givens. They won’t ask for them – but they’ll ask why they’re missing.
Maybe there’s one strategy that might just answer some of this – Second Life running on game consoles? They have the horsepower, the broadband connection, the user-base, the hardware is the same for everyone, is relatively affordable and it only changes every 5 years. It’ll need some work on the control system but it’s do-able, in theory at least.
What if computers stayed the creative platform for SL and consoles became the recreative one? So we early-adopter content-creating freaks stay crazy – keep buying graphics cards instead of boats and make the places, clothes and objects that console-toting future residents come to visit, wear and buy?
Wouldn’t that work? We could even kid ourselves that the killer app’ ISN’T photo-real cybersex!
So the release of Lively has stirred up much talk about embedding 3D worlds and that it’s posing much competition for Second Life not being embeddable. Google’s approach is to push everything into the web that used to be in the desktop. Why pay for Microsoft Office? Google Docs are free and much easier to share. Now they want people to think, why download and install a huge client when I can use a simple plug-in like Lively.
I agree with the first comment, not everyone wants to use a web-based 3D world, and second of all, when you compare the quality of the Lively plug-in to SL, you can tell which is more attractive to users.
In any case, you can see what Google’s approach is, whether or not Second Life wants to compete with that is their choice, there are still many users that will want to download a client for a better experience. Perhaps SL will have both available, a web interface for users not concerned too much about quality, or are maybe traveling and just want to logon real quick or for a short time, and the basic large client for normal use.
The look, feel and rendering speed of a virtual world is just the same when running in a browser as it is when running as a stand alone client. The advantage of a virtual world running in a browser is that actions on the hosting Web page such as button clicks can be sent to the virtual world and actions in the virtual world can be sent to the Web page, so one can drive the other. This provides strong integration between the Web and virtual worlds. Things such as moving between different virtual worlds from different vendors while still staying on the same Web page can also be supported. This approach provides a universal mechanism for accessing virtual worlds.
http://www.pelicancrossing.com/inDualityInfo.htm
There may be room for an embedded version of Sl. By light client I was meaning a viewer that would run with reasonable stability and without a lot of bells and whistles. The frustration with LL’s current management is that they have a passion for imposed strategies. You will adopt Dazzle and like it. You will use a voice-enabled client whether you like it or not. A light client would resolve many of their problems with the education sector. It would also resolve a lot of user-base problems because they would not be pushing the line that you will have a graphics card not less than 14 days old or else.
Announcing these dikats in language that would embarrass a first year university composition class, usually accompanied by historical, philosophical and bog Zen allusions that survive any informed examination for about 15 seconds just exacerbates the sense of frustration.
[...] I covered Philip Rosedale comparing the immersive qualities of Second Life to World of Warcraft in order to [...]
Linden Lab urgently needs to hire a new metaphors adviser. Just about every terrarium I’ve ever laid eyes on was a fairly sad object to gaze upon. The company does not need to keep producing these absurd metaphors which are almost invariably not faithful images anyway. The company needs a roadmap, a vision in the Dusanian sense of the word, and then the company needs to work on its execution.
Did you just turn me into an adjective?
And I agree, neither Warcraft nor terrariums quite fire up my imagination.
I want a tag line like “My God, it’s full of stars.”
I really hope this won’t ruin what has the potential to be a really cool game. Not so much the actual “sporn” itself (c’mon, it’s not THAT hard to ignore it), but rather the inevitable overreactions to it…
Phil. Do you see yonder cloud that ’s almost in shape of a camel?
Mitch. By the mass, and ’t is like a camel, indeed.
Phil. Methinks it is like a weasel.
Miych. It is backed like a weasel.
Phil. Or like a whale?
Mitch. Very like a whale.
[...] a winner from the entries to the User Interface design contest was a bit like choosing your favorite color: it’s not that there’s a wrong choice, [...]
[...] most thoughtful and dedicated communities in the world today. Philip can call this community a terrarium if he wants, I suppose he means the same thing. I’d call it one of the deepest potential [...]
[...] an annual award or whatever, but more broadly they need to communicate a “why”. Philip comparing SL to Warcraft doesn’t help. He struggled to explain WHY an immersive 3D environment is better than a Lively [...]
‘Dusanian’ cracks me up. Adverb: ‘Dusanily’
I used to make terrariums when I was a kid. Often turned fetid and fecund. Very hard to get a balance of nature that could exist without dramatic adjustments. So, sadly, probably more true than he meant.
In such a curse of “may you live in interesting times” mode, what popped in my mind was ‘crucible’
Pssst. Metanomics is at noon SLT, not 3PM. You’re late!
Yes…thanks Jacek – although it wasn’t the time but I didn’t realize I put SLT instead of my time zone. Wasn’t the issue. Unfortunately I was in a cab back to the office for the session and it hit a pedestrian. I’m really sorry to let everyone down I feel devastated. I just talked to them by phone they’re booking it tomorrow. I’m so sorry.
[...] I was reading Dusan talking about EA Game’s Creature Creator for Spore (AKA Sporn). The point seems to be that where ever sexuality is repressed, it creates a [...]
Well… so where are the interesting people? Maybe chat can be monitored in an automatic way that reverse-Turning tests it so that machines determine when humans are talking, then analyze to see if they are in a place that we can visit, and see if we will be welcome if we just pop in and try to join the conversation….
I am often the wallflower at the party and generally find my attempts to walk up to a group of people chatting at a party to be less than rewarding.
I did have an experience the other day I wrote about here (http://paiskidd.wordpress.com/2008/07/17/tp-wormhole/) where a malfunction apparently sent all of the avatars that clicked to go “home” actually TP’ed to another spot. There was a flow of people coming from all “walks” of SL. Finding someone to talk to was like shooting fish in a barrel. Maybe some form of this melting pot/avatar blender could become a feature, not a bug (?)
Sorry to hear about the accident! I hope the pedestrian will be alright.
Don’t worry about the delay of the announcement.
Aw Dusan, I hope nobody was seriously hurt in that accident ! There is nothing to apologise for (though I’ll be sure to check the schedule myself next time
). However, I’m not sure I understood what you meant by booking it tomorrow ? There is no Metanomics show scheduled until next week, is there ?
SL appears to be suffering another major borkage, although as usual there’s no in-world announcement. I guess this means one of the Linden troika will soon make a speech from the Gate of Heavenly Lag on how ‘Second Life is like a box of chocolates’.
[...] Burley hasn’t met self-respecting economists, like our good friend Dr. Castranova, who takes Warcraft and similar realms very [...]
[...] who pointed me to this story about Polynesian Hospitality, and from Dusan Writer with this link to his own thoughts about creativity and [...]
–Douglas Adams, “Mostly Harmless”
Hahahahaha
Geez, thanks for the smile. And yeah, I’m insanely tied to this idea that it’s MY identity and I wanna keep it ON me. Silly, but it’s really a product of a bad memory and losing pass codes all the time and forgetting what e-mail I used to register. From now on, I’ll just write the stuff down on PAPER and try not to lose it!
Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » Metaverse Master Tour by Gary Hayes…
A fairly incredible video overview showing the range of virtual world platforms. Incredible both for the time it must have taken to compile and edit, but also for being able to remember the avatar names and passcodes for each of the visited environment…
[...] fall, allows people to control video games with brain waves. The device, which I’ve covered previously, has been called “uncanny” and is likened to having ‘avatar [...]
All I have to add is:
He said, what????
Great designs… But may I bring to your attention that also it is very important that all Windows conform to Windows conventions i.o.w. that they can (in windowwed mode) be dragged outside of the min window and to a Second monitor…
Then all menu’s lists, maps, do not clutter the main screen anymore.
Pls support JIRA entry VWR-467 thatpropagates this…
[...] about this vs. that, it’s about using the right tools for the right application.” Dusan Writer puts this whole project in the context of the visualization industry and Second Life. He claims the [...]
So? Somebody creating in AutoCAD or Maya even if you put it all on platforms that are interoperable blah blah is still in a silo. He’s in an elitist geek/designer silo. These other softwares are accessible only to people who learn their really wonky ways and that’s a considerable barrier.
The beauty of SL is that it has building tools that even dummies can use to build at least simple structures, and they can also easily take other people’s buildings and move them or modify them or put them together, and that increases the democracy and the freedom of the economy and the world as a whole.
It’s vital to have a slope that the amateur can enter and remain happy on, but that the professional can also excel at. If you want high fidelity, use all those other things and play with that.
But SL even if it is “stale” or “behind” has something far different: the ability of the ordinary person to immerse in building and designing as much as a pro. That it is invaluable, yet never valued by the elites, I guess they find it a threat. Amateurs with a platform like this, hey, they become pros more easily.
[...] 3D art assets and promotions for Blue Mars. “ When I wrote about them previously, I commented: But I’m a big believer in two things: stuff is engaging not because of how it looks, although [...]
[...] of a TechCrunch interview where in explaining why the 3D properties of Second Life are important he compared it to Warcraft, and then followed it up by telling the New York Times that Second Life is a [...]
[...] Now, I’ll give Philip a little more credit. But this interview comes on the heels of a TechCrunch interview where in explaining why the 3D properties of Second Life are important he compared it to Warcraft, and then followed it up by telling the New York Times that Second Life is a terrarium. [...]
[...] Essay questions: Describe how the following is useful for positioning yourself in the media, or towards strengthening relationships with [...]
I haven’t seen BM running but it seems to maybe have the right ingredients and the wrong recipe? Professionally produced content is great but HOME, for example, will have that (and more, probably) and a ready-made user-base with the requisite hardware already in place. Is photo-real enough to hold an audience? Not in itself, not as long as you are ‘locked’ into audience mode but there’s one time when photo-real REALLY works for people – when they’re making stuff.
If you’re a would-be content creator then it’s a huge draw, probably a killer app for a lot of people. So maybe BM need to rethink their apparent strategy – if they made the creative tools (or upload of Shade® content) available only to paying subscribers then they might be onto something, a revenue stream and an eager user-base in one?
[...] also been trying to deal with the plethora of sex-oriented rooms (much as EA is trying to sort out Sporn), it all just goes to prove that code without policy is an invitation to a [...]
[...] Ambrose was announced as the new Head of Global Technology [...]
[...] Interviews and statements from Ambrose in his time at AOL here. [...]
Now tell us how you really feel about him
You really seem to have it in for the Philip nowdays don’t you 
Hahaha yeah. I have nothing against Philip, what I have something against is the ability to articulate a clear value proposition. I mean, come on – terrariums? Spatial voice? Funny hats? Warcraft?
If he’s truly the best in the world at coding virtual worlds, as he claims, then code. Let M handle PR, he does a better job by current indications.
Did you see him on the Future of the Internet sitting with the big boys? He looked like he was trying way too hard to be vision-y quoting “some guy” on the nature of the corporation.
Philip, I fear, has gone out of tune with his own message, or the message has gone in a direction that he doesn’t quite get yet.
Oh, and moments after I posted this they seem to have found a pseudo-replacement for Cory which is interesting.
[...] take notes. Tagged: linden labs, philip rosedale, Second [...]
Digado’s right, I’m beginning to feel very sorry for Pip Linden…
You’re a big old meanie, Dusan…
Awww I take it all back!!!! Now I feel like I’m the Lou Dobbs of Second Life.
That’s your bet? I really wouldn’t put any money on that.
Didn’t they already announce this, bar the name? I stumbled across it in the Wiki a couple of days ago too – a light chat client – don’t we know this already? Plus Pip Linden did ‘the decent thing’ and mentioned AjaxLife a couple of times recently. Trust me, when a (former) CEO does that it means they’re about to steal the idea and pass it off as their own – ask Apple how that one works.
Interestingly, they’re also (apparently) planning a modal client which is something that was mentioned (by me! by me!) during the UI contest and which was hinted at in at least one of the entries…
Maybe they put this stuff in the Wiki knowing no-one will ever find it?
I had high hopes that Blue Mars was going to allow user-created content, so this is a disappointment. The quality of the images shown here is impressive, and I can imagine Blue Mars becoming a 3D shopping experience and catalogue… a very lucrative business model.
Eris’ idea is an interesting one.
And may I say, Dusan, you are on fire over here! Breaking stories at a break-neck speed.
Nah, you’re more like a terrarium, or a sea monkey, or those really cool x-ray glasses you can order by mail…
I love Sea Monkeys!
Well I see it like government – ever notice how they’ll have a big announcement like “Congress announces support for spotted owl” and when you read the fine print they’re really re-announcing stuff they announced before?
So maybe the big announcement will be “Linden Lab Announces that Announcements Have Moved” seeing as you never know where they’re actually going to say stuff anymore what with the blog RSS kicked off log-in, comments closed, that odd forum thing, a press release archive on the Lab site that is pretty thin on content, and Bloomberg picking up the tip first on the new VP.
Let’s ask Robin.
Meh. I feel this kind of description is too vague. What needs to be articulated, especially to those not familiar with virtual worlds, is how they really improve upon other modes of non-face-to-face communication. Why is a meeting in a virtual world better than a teleconference with a web-meeting tools, for example? How do we develop metrics of this feeling of being connected with others in a virtual world?
I don’t disagree Pais but at least these quotes as headline snapshots are better than calling it a terrarium. What I’m on about is the elevator pitch not the metrics.
OK, OK… you’re right, it better than nothing. It is quoting some Smart Techie Guys. I’d like some analogy or reference that connects with a concept we can all relate to allow us to understand what makes the virtual world better.
I *know* from my experience that there is something compelling that happens in SL that goes beyond the obvious, but I have yet to put my finger on what it is.
It is just beyond my words, but I know it could be described in an elevator speech. I am saying we need to find it.
Given recent LL performance, I’d love for your prediction to come true, but very much doubt it.
Some kind of call-out service, I think.
Well with ‘M’ in charge things seem to be moving more logically. The visionary part has been done, now lets build something out of the probably thousands of napkins and other scratch papers that have been produced/gathered over the last 5 years with ‘ideas’. Philip is still in the stage of the idea – I think M is in the stage of the product. The problem with the idea is its never really finished so it makes sense his message goes inconsistent with the product which is about definitions and concrete actions. Thats my thoughts anyhow.
@pais I took a shot at listing the problems with some of the competing technologies in http://peterquirk.wordpress.com/2008/08/01/reasons-to-use-opensimrealxtend-for-team-meetings-inside-the-enterprise/.
Just thinking, might also be a smart move from Lindens, to take more distance from the connotation that comes with ‘Second Life’:
Have you downloaded SLim already?
What’s that?
Oh, a 3D instant message client & filesharing system. Really slick! Based on the old Second Life, but better!
Peter:
Thanks for that, I keep meaning to link to it since I saw it the other tday. Found it a really useful round-up and a nice supplement to the Microsoft interview.
I do still think we need the elevator pitch.
You know like “Why meet in a virtual world again?”
“Think sphere versus square: Web and audio conferences are square, flat, transmission-based. Virtual world meetings are relational, space-based, give a sense of being there.”
Something like that. My imagination needs to fire up a little more however. Hehe
*Nods”
I love it. And can you imagine if you can use SLim without ever having to log-in to SL, but there’s a mini avatar creation tool built in, both things compel you to understand avatars, socializing, groups, chat, etc. and eventually you’re off buying sims and holding beach parties.
Beautiful and eloquent and closer to capturing the essence of .. this experience, perhaps better than anything I’ve read before.
Too bad. We were hoping for the ability to make user-created content as well. Oh well, it’s now morphing into something like a souped-up version of Entropia I guess. I wish them all the best. But, it would be a mistake to continue comparing Blue Mars to SL, after this news–they’re simply worlds apart.
A very nice one… Reading this in the European morning. I’ll try and have a wild day
Great, now the biggest scam in history has gone virtual.
Almost as good as virtual banks?
Wouldnt it be easier to just give people some glass’s so it can be proper 3D AR?
It cant be that much hard work to streamline some TOLED based or video see-though 3D Specs in this day and age.
[...] The entries from all the participating finalists [...]
I talked it over with some 3D pro’s and the promises made in the narrative are 99% certainly impossible. What you are looking at, can only be done real time by raytracing, a highly experimental technique currently in development by IBM and Intel for off-line environments.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKqZKXwop5E
The ‘unlimited light bounce’ would create many, many megabites (and depending on the environment even gigabites) of data and the cloudcomputing is a nice story, but doesn’t make up for the massive amounts of data that still need to go back and forth through internet connections.
also notice the quality of the OTOY visuals – looks like any standard graphics engine, certainly not the kind of visualization as displayed in the movie.
And as techcrunch comments note, the first minutes have been stolen from a portfolio movie CITY – it has been made 4 years ago and definitely isn’t ‘real time’.
Still its nice to see what could happen probably within the next 5 to 6 years – but the best indication of high end virtual worlds today is still HOME and Blue Mars
PS my best guess is it was the ‘pitch video’ to win over major investors such as Greenspan to look into developing a high end virtual world. It would account for the narrative making the promises ‘as yet to be developed’ – ‘user generated content’ with a shot that’s obviously not user generated content at all (its obviously part of the model in style and composition) and the use of material they didn’t develop.
Totally agree Digado – just sooo tantalizing.
I’ve been keeping an eye on OTOY though, at the very least it holds promise, especially if their version 2 promises hold true.
[...] difference between the entries was so small that making a decision was difficult and I can’t thank the judges enough for their hard work and wisdom: Ordinal Malaprop, Eristic [...]
[...] The winner of the Second Life User Interface Contest has just been announced at a special edition of the Metanomics show in Second Life: Rhita Shan is the winner, and you can read about this contest and watch the projects on Dusan Writer’s Metaverse. [...]
[...] World Notes has just posted an article on the UI design contest highlighting one feature from each entry – features that I somewhat arbitrarily chose to show the [...]
I slide my mask down for a second and give you a wink and nod.
Best read I have ever read on the subject and my ever will. Wow!
Dennis
UI Contest winners announced…
Over on Dusan Writer’s blog the winners of his UI redesign contest have been announced.
Of course I also blogged my own thoughts about the UI and how I think it should be redesigned and mine is (naturally in my possibly biased view) better than any…
Congratulations to the winners… absolutely fantastic work!
My take on all of this, God love Phillip since one has to love someone who had a dream, probably was called nuts for having it, and then bygosh, made this “virual world thing” he’d been talking about to the sheer amazement of those who might have rolled their eyes at him or behind his back–is this. Listen closely to the story that Hamlet Au tells about the first day the tiny initial crew of Linden employees rezzed their avatars inworld. Dissect that day until its meaning become clear. The first few months are telling too, but I think that first day is enough to see that there was a dream but no plan. Maybe oddly, that’s probably the root of why I fell in love, so to speak with SL. A dream. Who can or should plan “a dream.” Now a company, that’s another matter. I say, long live Phillip, the dreamer, though perhaps he shouldn’t be on the promo tour.
Communism is a great evil, yes.
The game companies have a conspiracy going. They are preparing all the young minds for communism with this kind of exploited, grinding labour and collectivism. Using addictive games, they are breaking down their individuality, and conditioning them, desensitizing them to the downside of the collective and Stakhanovite labour.
Next, following the theories of Ted Castronova, they will begin to apply this to real life. The Extropians will be at the forefront of this mass adaptation of the collectivist model, all under the guise of being innovative, new, and experimental.
You’ll see!
Frankenviewer?
Dunno who came up with that but please, Dusan, can we call it that?
SL UI Design Contest Winner (and a lot of photographs)…
Miss Rheta, can I haz three kisses? Errr… I mean… last night, at Metanomics, a long time of waiting and anticipation finally ended, as Dusan Writer officially announced the three winners for the Second Life User Interface Design Contest. In…
[...] initial months of Second Life, his new hire at his side, and Mitch Kapor in the wings waiting to end the frontier mentality and get the grid ready for the grown [...]
I must admit I get so tired of academic research on Second Life and virtual worlds in general. It seems that on any average day in SL you could let go of that cat you’re swinging and hit at least 3 PhD students scraping shaky theses together.
Given that we’re still so early in this phenomenon any ‘research’ has to be so speculative that it might as well have come from a crystal ball. Worse still, that speculation sometimes starts to influence the platform itself and some people start to believe in notions of immersion-ism versus augment-ism. All these ‘isms and no real insight? I have a term for all this stuff – I call it Premature Extrapolation, as yet there’s no cure. (Well, if you can’t beat them ‘Ethnographicise’ them!)
The reason for my mini-rant? This sounds like a piece of academic work I actually want to read! Well, it had to happen eventually….
Very nice,
A similar thing happened to me, here:
http://sl-resident.livejournal.com/350389.html
- aдз чaйлдз, искусственный мальчик
I love it hehe.
As a case study from Harvard it’s happily clear of extrapolations or crystal balls – what it does manage to do is explain the business challenge that Pip and crew faced in deciding how “open” to be and does a pretty fine job of it. In fact, if I could strip out the business challenge part, I’d say you’d have a pretty good description, assessment and overview of Second Life, its development, its promise and its challenges. It doesn’t give any answers but then neither has the Lab itself other than in the most vague and general terms.
I wonder whether Philip posted the challenge to the JIRA and is still waiting to see what tasks the Lindens decide are worth doing when they wake up in the morning.
JIRA: Create a concise, understandable strategy and business model for Linden Lab, back up with a road map, communicate effectively with core customers, and execute flawlessly.
Meantime, Eris, you should apply:
“We are seeking User Experience Designers who are passionate about creating user interfaces that are elegant, intuitive, and engaging. You should have strong interaction design skills, an eye for visual aesthetics, and a hankering to do a bit of user research. You’re not necessarily a programmer but you’re also not afraid of code or people who write code; we work directly with developers to improve Second Life. If you believe in the power of design to change the world — virtual and real — then Linden Lab is the place for you.”
http://lindenlab.hrmdirect.com/employment/view.php?req=20392
I wonder if the “a bit of user research” is indicative of the position or a broader approach?
I should say (for the irony-deficient) that I’m not quite the nihilist I sometimes sound. I recognise the need for a bit of speculation (academic or otherwise) I just think we should see it as that and not confuse it with fact, which too often happens.
I should apply? LOL That’s a flattering and, I assume, not entirely serious suggestion! Way out of my depth I think, but it does sound like fun! I’m really encouraged that they’re appointing positions like this. However, they do sound like NEW positions which probably goes a long way to explain the current UI?
I’m under the impression that Grant Linden was brought in under that role, but the fact they’re still filling position(s) maybe, just maybe, speaks to the idea that the user experience really is a critical area of focus.
We can hope.
[...] then there’s Dusan Writer who thinks browser based virtual worlds (small worlds) might have sold out the dream. My question is simple – why do we have to choose between client and browser based virtual [...]
It seems to escape even Philip Rosedale that what people do in Second Life is communicate with eachother, verbally and non-verbally. The reason this place is interesting and useful is that it is an improved communications interface. You don’t have to sit home alone the way we do with no-interactive media, or sit in a crowd alone the way we do in conventional theater. You can be with and communicate with others who share your interests, preferences and values in Second Life, no matter where you or they are geographically. We build and do things in Second Life in order to interact with other people. Of course improved communications are for business and entertainment. I don’t see why anyone should have so much trouble arguing that point.
[...] not context-based like the suggestion by Roy Cassini in his User Interface contest entry, it’s a step in the direction, and by being Web-based rather than hard-coded in the viewer [...]
[...] previously written about death in virtual worlds, and the insight this gives us into the concept of avatars as more [...]
[...] the heels of the buzz over a snippet of video that was said to show a highly detailed 3D world, fully rendered and accessible through your [...]
Dusan, I have been a little sideways with Kurzweil’s various pronunciations over the years… but decided last week to see what he had to say. I got through a couple chapters of his singularity book on the plane yesterday and it is giving me quite a different perspective on things.
I know how the marketing gits and other modern jackasses dogpile on the words-of-the-day (like that worthless ‘carbon footprint’ googles hype) and thus ’singularity’ is yet another term tossed out continually.
Yet so far in my reading Kurzweil is helping to frame the kinds and rates of changes going on around us to illuminate what is not intuitive or perceivable from our perspective within the system.
Maybe take a look at the book, or excerpts he makes available, or interviews he’s done (I got hooked via the one on NPR.org, you can also see him talk about it and give a thumbnail overview on TED.com).
seeing how changes are happening exponentially really juices the imagination when asking where will Pais and I be in a few years…
Um yeah, I’ve read all of his books Pais and just read ’spiritual’ a second time to see if I was missing something.
And sure, the rate of change isn’t where I have an argument, it’s the implication of that change for computing and humanity that I take issue with. The ’singularity’ won’t happen in isolation from other forces, so extrapolating what it means or even that it will model the mind’s capacity is where I part company.
Very funny. I feel for you.
[...] News on Second Life New Second Life features due next week 2008-08-15Hackers Punch a Hole In Zyngo 2008-08-15[netbehaviour] OneAvatar 2008-08-15Jolitas Outfit des Tages 2008-08-15The miracle of [...]
.
Well, dang.
When I saw some of Kurzweil’s introductory text telling me that not only will non-biological intelligence exceed that of a human’s brain, but that of all human brains computational power together; while bringing us all to more human-than-ever planes of existence, I was hoping that by the end of the book I would be relieved of my Bill Joy “The future doesn’t need us” bleak skepticism. There is even an frontspiece Bill Joy blurb for the book that kinda tips his hat in that direction.
I think what you’ve provided is the spoiler that by the end of the book I may have no more insight into my personal questions than I am starting with. Phoey.
Haha read on.
I suppose I owe a more detailed response but it’s Friday and my head hurts – but some day I’ll try to deconstruct that damn singularity thing. 
[...] this backdrop, the community of child avatars responded to their exclusion from the SL5B events with a parallel birthday celebration. The call for inclusion included a wide [...]
[...] and self-policing in the absence of effective platform governance. Morality and Tribes I previously wrote: Synthetic worlds magnify, focus, and contain our explorations until they cycle back to catch our [...]
Excellent analysis. This leads directly into how states interact with coding authorities/platform owners, particularly when the two might be at odds over issues of national or transnational legislation. As virtual world assets increasingly have real world value (to put it very bluntly) will states feel the need to intervene in virtual worlds if, for example, the inworld assets of a large corporation with lobbying powers are compromised by inworld ‘violent’ actors? Will intervention powers be devolved/outsourced? What thresholds exist? And a thousand more questions …
Lots of good questions, Dusan. We don’t really have any good models of fair and uncorruptable governing bodies in the world, I guess either.
I was playing with ideas of where things could evolve….
We had some talk about avatars that carry with them lots of information about our preferences and other aspects of that virtual world identity and history… we talked about the Kurzweil observation of how change is happening at an exponential rate, so we can imaging huge amounts of computing, memory, and bandwidth at our disposal…
so in that context I hatched an idea (while flipping through the programs on my Tivo’s now playing list and seeing ‘My Name is Earl’):
Virtual Karma
See, with real karma, we rely on comeuppance being meted out some mechanical aspects of the Universe that are not currently measurable with our science, however, with sufficient technology, karma can be automated. Avatar Karma can be just the start. The karma of every entity can be quantified and monitored.
Massive amounts of computing resources would collect and analyze data in a neutral and sanctified cloud computing complex, fact checking and making available what is needed to be known while maintaining scrupulous adherence to privacy.
We could fairly and exhaustively monitor if google really is holding up its promise to “not be evil”, we can instantly see any taint improper corporate influence in our governments, we can see the provenance of our food as it is being served, see the true colors of a policeman’s conduct on his sleeve, hold cell phone companies accountable for treating customers like scum… you get the idea.
*Notes that my Plurk karma has dropped steeply over the past few days.*
I’ve known kids in SL on the main grid and I’ve helped a few and AR’d one for being an idiot. The only real problem with a kid in SL is that people outside of SL may possibly accuse you of being a pedeophile for a relationship that may develop while the child may not have been totally honest about their age. It makes me be afraid to interact with those that I suspect to be underage. In real life, you can at least look at them and make a reasonable judgement of age. That ability doesn’t exist in SL or on the internet.
[...] code, creates a third construct which are the sub-cultures and tribes (as I droned on about in my last post). It’s not a user/owner paradigm, but rather one of tribe/code, and it will be interesting to [...]
[...] 100 passcodes. And I recently blogged on this….and blogged…and blogged…..and 4,000 words later came to the same conclusion as Edutechy who also had a nice simple diagram and a name (Virtual [...]
[...] lightning and embedding of all ther media like pics and movies etc. just with a click on the wall. Dusan Writer asked: What IS [...]
sweet. makes sense to me. meta-ava-data? metatar? avadata? identadata?
I think this would be a tip of the iceberg of the kinds of structures that we could build that are nicely secure and privatized but can interact with systems to render them to our needs at a given time.
Beyond wallets and wardrobes, but to our worldview and knowledge perhaps stored in personalized ontologies. A repository of our non-biological knowledge and virtual experiences and memories.
I saw http://dusanwriter.com/?p=715 and wanted to mention a useful site: http://www.FreePatentsOnline.com
It provides free patent searching, free PDF downloading, allows annoting documents and sharing them, and free alerts for new documents.
If you have a spot, a link to let your users know abou the site would be great.
Well it WILL be nice (and we are working on some part of it). Do you realize that it will be a SEPARATE service? I mean it MUST be a separate service then.
There are some hurdles on the way of adoption and there’s relatively little understanding so far how to overcome them.
[...] up on my recent post about how within the child avatar community of Second Life sim owners have taken to policing their [...]
[...] this is good news. And I can now check another box in my list of promises from January of this year. To recap, at that time based on promises and statements from the Lab, [...]
I think your sentiment applies greatly as we move from gaming to enterprise solutions. One of the things we are most focused on at Nortel with our recent entry into the virtual world space (http://www.projectchainsaw.com/blog) is the idea of identities being verifiable and presence meaning more than just an out of the office setting.
Great blog!
[...] virtuels OTOY In The News Again: Advanced 3D Renders and a Browser-Based Virtual World Il semble que la 3D dans le browser pour un univers virtuel ou non, intéresse [...]
[...] is similar to IBM’s Project Bluegrass about which I’ve blogged previously and promised a visual 3D space integrated with [...]
Pics not loading :/
mmmm, lunch… TP me. OK if I am wearing shorts?
[...] bits and pieces of Blue Mars at the virtual worlds conference in New York this past spring, I was rather taken with how beautiful their virtual world environment could be. Their promise was that they were [...]
[...] Mars is promising an early 2009 release and have partnered with content providers including a company under the direction of famed concept artist Syd [...]
[...] goodness Mitch promises we’re leaving the frontier [...]
“Mono” is Spanish for “monkey” (and pronounced “MOH-noh”, rhyming with the last name of Sonny of Sonny and Cher). The group that does “Mono” is Ximian (”simian”) headed up by Miguel de Icaza (who’s from Mexico); they originally did the file browser Nautilus. I presume they wanted to keep the primate theme when they chose the name.
Oops! I have Ximian confused with Eazel; the latter are the folks who created Nautilus. I hate when I do that!
Ah neat – I did not know that, thanks Melissa.
Thanks for covering the launch of the Project Chainsaw blog. We will be providing some more video of life within the web.alive environment in the near future. Keep up with us at http://www.projectchainsaw.com/blog
[...] M Will Announce – The launch of SLim with screen shots and possible roll-out as a test platform within the week – The comment that SLim [...]
ROFL – it’s not that I’ve ignored interoperability, identity, or reality… I just make an assumption that if we continue to focus on today’s reality – we’ll never reach interoperability at the simple level I’ve described. All of these should be as transparent as walking into a room and flipping the light switch on! I’m going to assume that a not-so-warm glow will begin to shine from my Compact Fluorescent Light bulb. I don’t care how it happened; I only expect it to happen without any more effort than I’ve applied.
Consequently, amongst my peers in the eLearning social arena, VD was vehemently rejected for something more trendy and marketable – My VD concept will now be known as “Oi!”…
Hehe – I only meant you bypassed it in the long windy wordy that I covered it in what ended up being a rambly blog of my own that came to a similar conclusion. I still love the line about only wanting to enter a “clean, lit room” – and it’s more than just one log-in, it’s making sure I can see the walls and the back exits and understand the spaces I enter, so I think we’re in agreement – except of course we’d be using energy-efficient lights no?
[...] when I got a taste of AMD’s new Radeon card, it was like getting a taste of a bigger buffet when I’ve been [...]
[...] clear policy coupled with appropriate enforcement. As an example of how an imbalance can occur, I recently wrote about a sim used by the child avatar community where reporting an age offense (in this case it [...]
What a shame.
WHAT?? No more manically happy rearranging of the deck chairs while the titanic sinks? How shall we ever survive without regular fluff pieces?
Seriously, all I can say is its about goddamn time! Torley should have been muzzled long ago. LL needs a PROFESSIONAL in charge of communications, not ‘happy-happy! Nothing ever is bad and I got a box of flourescent crayolas!’ tutorials.
Whenever people say we need realism in virtual worlds, I just point them to The Simpsons (TV series). It’s popular, it’s fun, and it doesn’t look realistic.
Then look at something like Beowulf, a big budget movie with near-photo-realistic rendering – and a flop.
In summary, realism is neither necessary nor sufficient for broad appeal. In fact, by requiring a more powerful computer, you end up shrinking your potential audience.
I believe it’s a temporary ban – Torley is hinting at exciting happy happy things to come! Stay tuned for a SLim Torley? A new Help Island? Who knows – but maybe we’ll lose the neon?
I don’t disagree Troy. In fact, I always hesitate to use the word realistic and prefer “richly rendered”. It’s not to say that SL needs to appeal to folks with high end computers, leave that to Blue Mars, but knowing what’s out there, what’s coming, should put added momentum to SL making sure they give a good REASON to come (and stay).
Shadows, while nice, should come after bump maps and shaders, standard features of hardware rendering for a decade. Shadows and mirrored surfaces and more await us as they are standards in real-time 3D this century, even before Second Life launched.
It is pt for you to call the prim “lowly” as it is a relic from the earliest 3D applications of the Amiga in the 1980s. They can continue to have their place but not at the expense of meshes or bones or other modern 3D objects. What’s wrong with out-world construction? It’s no different than build web pages offline.
The real issue you raise is the issue of “creative” and “passive” use of 3D worlds. Creative to what end? Passive to what detriment? While creativity for creativity’s sake is all well and good, it produces what Second Life has become: a marginal space that hemorrhages users.
I have argued from my signup in 2006 that bridging the gap between gamers and socializers is the only plan to ensure a sustainable and popular world. Gamers can also enjoy the pleasures of building, exploring and making friends. Some of this already exists in the gaming community where modders create new levels and objects and people maintain friends through common gaming servers. When I signed up Linden Lab even used a banner ad proclaiming “yesterday I created my own FPS, today people are paying me to play it.” The design of landscape manipulation and building creates the ideal environment to make Second Life a living map editor for games, all that’s missing is the proper infrastructure as the current “damage area” code is worthless and LSL is too anemic to allow script-based solutions.
The anti-gamers out there argue they don’t want to be part of a Wild West but why is that the presumptive outcome? Gamers in their areas, some watching and chatting others playing, builders creating new areas and weapons, and everyone getting to take a break to enjoy Second Life for what it is today. Millions log in to Xbox Live a day, millions buy new games every month. It is a social non-passive entertainment that is just waiting to be rolled-up into a larger persistent user-extended world.
[...] An interesting article from Dusan about realism in rendering and the future of Second Life: Dusan Writer’s Metaverse A Mesh of Chips: Rendering Virtual Worlds and Saying Goodbye to the S… My response: Shadows, while nice, should come after bump maps and shaders, standard features of [...]
As it happens, our August update is going up this week.
FWIW, the snags we hit had nothing to do with multiclient. Multiclient works fine, but we never planned to make all the clients ourselves. We have several, we have open source code libraries for several languages, and they’ll be released as part of the developer program for whoever is interested.
Rather, the challenges have more to do with usability of tools and polish. But we feel like we’re in a good place on that now. We committed a while ago to providing a monthly dev status update, did so last month (http://www.metaplace.com/blog/66.html), and will do so again this month in the next day or so.
Dusan, I haven’t been banned! This wild speculation is cooking to cook up imaginations crazier and colorful than what I could muster.
But here’s a hint as to what I’m working on next: watch http://secondlife.com/showcase in times to come.
Also, subtle clues in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBIdIiSY45U
@Maklin: I’m not Communications Manager, Katt is. And for shame, you forgot to mention the many historical, critical discussions I’ve had with Residents about improving SL’s usability, among other things.
Not to mention numerous tutorials that show workarounds for bugs, like at http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Video_Tutorials/Quicktips
I do find it amusing that I’m perceived as “perma-neon”, but that’s where I must… GO… EMO!!!!
OK, not convincing enough? *sigh*
P.S. Something in the 2nd sentence is also a clue. ;D
Wonderful – looking forward to it Raph and sorry for misunderstanding the reason for the release date being pushed out.
* Puts sticky on Metaplace home page.
Mmmmmmmm shaddddddddows and light.
“it’s a form of ageism to exclude them in any case.”
for the record, i never agreed with that particular part. right cause, wrong reason.
Sorry Adz, didn’t mean to make it sound like a blanket policy or community decision, and really I point it all out because it’s the best example I have on hand of the tension created between policy and the shift to “granular decision-making” when a system is broken, poorly enforced, or where the guilty are never presumed innocent.
well said.
Torley has always worked really hard to bring fun and INFORMATION to people. Shame on tounge wagging assholes. Oops I said too much.
Oh wells.
Haha tell it like it is ColeMarie always better to speak your mind. If I could find mine I’d do the same.
<3
*squish*
Well, as I already wrote in that forum thread, these new categories won’t make the AR process better – I’m afraid they will make it worse (and it is already messed up as it is).
Age play as AR category? Time to AR the midforties women playing 20yo barely legal sexbombs. I see lots of drama coming from AR’s by the many people who just don’t KNOW that age play is perfectly okay, in contrast to SEXUAL age play.
Failure to deliver product or service? Time to AR Linden Lab – in most cases non-deliveries have their reason in the non-stable running of THEIR service. I see lots of drama coming from AR’s by many people who just don’t understand that for each really fraudulant transaction failure you have a dozen or more where the seller is a victim of a far from perfect system himself.
And – even though the G-Team falsely claims to investigate all ARs – underage ARs against residents who already ARE age verified and LL has the PROOF of that on their own files end in suspending their account within minutes (and needing WEEKS to get the suspension lifted again). Bad. Really bad, the ultimate griefer tool. This simply is not acceptable.
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse – A possible speech – Dusan Writer’s layout for Mark Linden’s speech at SLCC08. Have a chuckle, cry, rejoice, … whatever it makes you feel like, but there is a high probably M. Linden will use this!
[...]
Now I don’t feel as if Im missing out on anything by not going! Ive read it all here! when he does make his speech someone will post a transcript lets put it side by side and compare
wouldn’t it be great if there were some mind blowing surprises! but after the “Big” announcement after the 5th Birthday…I guess we don’t expect much in the way of real exiting news…what happened with that anyway??? who won…If Phil did get a makeover I guess that would eclipse anything anyone else said at the convention anyway!!! Great post 
we are going with the free to play microtransaction model, so artists will be able to create objects like clothing, accessories and furniture and sell it in game (with a cut of it going to us of course) but houses and buildings will all be professionally made. of course, nothing is set in stone so who knows if that’ll change.
I have learned more from Torley’s vidtuts than ANY other source of tutorial in or out of SL. For those who dont appreciate his style, dont look. By the way, I’m a dancer and that is all I have ever wanted to do here. I hate building and couldn’t script my way out of a paper bag… most classes in SL have flown over my head. However, thanks to Torley’s wacky style, I have actually completed a few small projects and even mustered the guts to enter the very public snowman building contest during winterfest. Thank you Torley!
Psst, the August update is out. If you are on the mailing list, you may have gotten it in email. If not, it is on the website.
[...] And, look out for Doug Thompson! He is also known a the great blogger Dusan Writer who sponsored the Second Life (TM) User Interface competition. [...]
Thanks Raph – received.
You beat me to a follow-up post.
I’d still love to see a follow-up post with your reactions to the content of the newsletter.
There are two separate issues to consider here: The Content versus the Delivery. The Second Life(TM) environment is a product that certainly requires a platform on which to exist, but it can be viewed as existing independently of the client. The Second Life world, made up of its prims, people, communities, businesses, events etc. could exist in different platforms. The specific software platform on which it stands (and that could be a web browser, a stand-alone client, a java-based app or whatever else) is, in essence, a delivery system.
Linden Lab(R) are really working with two products; a virtual world and a software client. It is possible for these two to be divorced and for Linden Lab to farm out the platform work to others. What they need to do is continue to define the nature, scope, and content of the Second Life virtual world, which will, in turn, drive the development of the client.
This model suggests that the issue LL needs to focus on is maintaining the content. I ;m not suggesting the platform is not important – without it you can’t have your Second Life existence – but customers don’t sign up for Second Life because they want software but because they want to experience the virtual world. You may have the slickest, fastest, most stable software on the planet, but if the VR you visit is a dull as the Barbie Girl(TM) virtual world, you won’t stay. It is worth remembering that current SL residents still stay with the experience despite the flaky software. Ultimately I suggest VR experience is more important than the software platform – web-based or otherwise.
For a discussion of some of what I consider the four key elements of a successful virtual world, check out my article in “SLentrepreneur Magazine” entitled “The 4C’s of 3D’s.” http:/www.slentre.com (due out on September 3rd, 2008).
[...] It seems Robin trots out when there are fires to extinguish. Torley’s post that he had been silenced from the main blog, disaffection amongst the SL reporters and bloggers over sudden silences both in [...]
[...] Rosedale recently explained that Second Life is a far cry better than browser-based worlds like Google’s Lively by [...]
Absolutely! Blizzard wins for turning the chore of learning the interface into a compellingly playable game, as well as for WoW providing a quality experience across a broad range of hardware.
Yes, you can lower your graphics settings for SL, but it impairs the experience, and each technological upgrade makes the world less acceptable, especially for the groups LL seems most interested in holding onto – people in education, business and government, who are much less likely to have high-end graphics cards than someone shelling out a subscription fee for a game like WoW.
Blizzard knows its customer base, works to broaden it, and to deliver a quality experience (though at a fairly high price). Linden Lab has a long way to go in each of those areas.
Mind if I interject with a little hard numbers instead of subjective valuations?
Total WoW suscription numbers, according to the Wiki article about WoW (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_Warcraft), WoW currently holds 10 million subscribers.
According to the SL login page, SL has had about 1.2 million logins in the last 60 days, barely a tenth of WoW’s numbers.
It would seem consumers are using their credit cards to vote which they consider the best virtual world.
[...] Someone Is Home Over on Metaplace the summer silence had started to rub the alpha community’s the wrong way, but a promised update was posted as the month winds down and we head into a long winter of tiling [...]
[...] Same idea with Weblin, about which I previously posted. [...]
There’s a slightly mysterious option (new to me anyway) in the latest 1.21 Release Candidate. On the General tab of Preferences, beside your language choice there’s an option to “Share language with objects”. In other words there’s a (new?) option to tell SL what language u prefer to use and it’s accessible by scripts?
It would allow scripted items, vendors for example, to address users in their chosen language without any intervention by the user – assuming we all script our objects with multiple languages of course.
That kind of automatic and invisible preference-setting could be excellent in SL, but the idea of flags floating around people’s heads is HIDEOUS! I come into SL to get away from petty nationalism and flag-waving, that’s part of the joy of it – I can meet anyone from anywhere. Flags over outr heads, that has to be an American idea, they’ll stick a flag in anything…
In real life, Australians rarely use ‘Gday’ when we meet each other. In Second Life it makes a deeply convenient flag, eh. And why do Australians believe New Zealanders tag sentences with ‘eh’ and Americans believe Canadians tag sentences with ‘eh’. And do Canadians and New Zealanders share this belief about each other?
Hahah!
Great little write-up.
Yes it was all generalizations, and if you follow by blog, you’ll lear pretty quick it’s more tongue-in-cheek than anything serious, that’s for sure.
Never met an Australian or New Zealander in person. But, as for Canadians proclaiming ‘eh’ often – as in every 10th sentence or so… well, I’m here in Canada now. Maritime Provinces. And it’s true ~grins~
Yes, likely it’s the dialect of this part of Canada, but it just goes to show: there often is a little truth in most things you hear about.
And beware those evil art galleries with their twisted prims! Oh, the unspeakable horror…
==========
TV “news” demonstrates yet again that its intellectual credentials couldn’t fill the shallow end of a baby pool.
Interesting thing about all those “concerned” journalists is that they so easily find sex and drugs and whatever in second life. How comes they never find any education and creativity? I guess it has something to do with THEIR interests. Which is OK, but don’t blame the world because of your dirty search queries.
Actually, it is time that somebody sue their asses off for misreporting. Second Life is not a world for teens and they obviously know that. Still, they insist on negative propaganda.
I think it’s World 0 (zero or naught), not World O (”oh”).
Oh. Er. Zero. Hmm.
I thought tongue-in-cheek was British eh.
And Eris – saw that, really great addition to the Grid.
Myself, I wear a shirt made of Canadian bacon now to avoid confusion because you’re right, those little flags are a problem – I can’t even tell the French flag apart from the American one – which one has the hammer and sickle again?
Little Australian and New Zealand flags would be no use to anyone, eh. The state of Queensland, where I grew up, is another ehist area.
Uhm… pardon me, but isn’t stuff like this what the profile is for?
Wow, could they work any harder to find the “really bad things” they are looking for and ignore the other 95% (or whatever–I never run across this stuff)? Geeze.
[...] Cover Your Kid’s Eyes, There’s Sex in Virtual Worlds: NBC News, um, Reports (Dusan Writer) [...]
Coming out of “beta”? You mean “alpha” right?
We’ve been in alpha all this time.
I’d say we announced too early, because we did major retrenching earlier this year. We feel good about where we are now, but we also don’t want to make that mistake twice.
Oops – coming out of alpha. I think what’s incredibly tough is begging for patience without promising how long the patience needs to last. With Linden Lab, in this case they didn’t beg for patience they just went silent and then said “sorry, we’re changing, should have told you, forgot, but we’ll get to those changes later and in the meantime, well, in the meantime nothing.”
At least with Metaplace there’s been a great deal of transparency about the retrenching, both through media contacts and the community. No one is obliged to open up the corporate planning charts or development map – so it’s always a struggle between transparency, failing to deliver on promises, and a right to maintain a few corporate cards close to your chest.
And once out of alpha, the real work begins. I’m looking forward to Linden Lab reaching Beta any day now.
See you in LA.
Honestly, the lead of this story is the most irresponsible part of it. ALL of SL is the “dark side of the web”? This is absolutely horrible journalism.
The 3d-browsers will become standard in a few years. See the ‘Spacetime’ browser for example.
If not the world, then, perhaps, just one or two lives at a time.
I’ll settle for that.
[...] first hour of a new user: the ineffectiveness of search, the shallowness of Spotlight, and now the shifting of tutorials and help off into little buckets on the forums or little neon-lit islands run by our [...]
[...] In fact, my list of top barriers to Second Life adoption went like this: [...]
[...] Open Source But here’s the thing: through the UI contest, I was privileged to witness the talent of the Second Life community. I was able to participate in a process of listening to Residents talk [...]
[...] with TV networks calling Second Life the “dark side of the Internet” why not? In fact, the above is for Rude [...]
Terrific outline, thank you! Everything is accurate but the white shirt and chinos
If my flight gets diverted to some exotic locale and I miss the speech, just read from this outline…and who knows, some of it might just be right!
See you in Tampa.
Hawaiian shirt and flip flops?
See you there.
silly boy
That there would be early Habitat, the granddaddy of graphical virtual worlds, Randy Farmer and Chip Morningstar’s baby.
Hmmm….isn’t it a great great grand daddy by now? Although, the further we come, the further the rendering advances but we’re still mostly hanging out looking to chat.
[...] Lab will be showing off its new SLim client at the virtual world conference in LA today…or at least talking about the integration of the [...]
I think the simplest description of SLim, is that it’s a text/voice instant message service that requires that all parties have active Second Life accounts (and also that they be running the SLim client or an as yet unreleased compatible viewer).
FWIW, virtual worlds are definitely “places” in my mind. But to me, clients and devices are merely windows that look onto that place. That doesn’t preclude rich 3d “windows” — I merely happen to think that multihead, flexibly represented VWs is the future.
[...] Dusan Writer has a take on the panel I was on, casting it as Metaplace vs Linden Lab — though to my mind that leaves out the contributions of Mike Wilson of Makena and Corey Bridges of Multiverse. That’s because Dusan is interested mostly int he clash of philosophies about where virtual worlds are going: But it leaves a question: are virtual worlds places? Or will the technologies that enable 3D spaces become so ubiquitous that we’ll stop thinking of them as distinct places? Because in Raph’s view, the tools and technologies to create 3D artefacts, the system for managing your avatar and identity should be EXPRESSION-agnostic. In other words, we should have the tools for creating content and then be able to seamlessly publish that content to cell phones, browsers, Flash, separate clients – whatever, it’s not the viewer, it’s in the engine from which content is derived and creating standards and tools for expressing the content from that engine. [...]
That is a great video piece, thank you! The flash entry into the space has come along way.
[...] new SLim chat client for Second Life may have hit the streets too early but having seen it at VW08 and talked to the [...]
Hi,
Object code means code that has been compiled into machine-readable form (i.e. not the human readable source code). I gather that they will be releasing an API which will allow programmers to place calls to functions in the object code and thereby get access to the functionality without making the orginal source available. This is what, in Windows, is called a DLL (dynamic link library.)
Icha.
This is a wonderful example of how virtual environments can serve as an on-demand collaborative mini application for enterprises.
Thanks for sharing
oh and since I am still in geek pontifical mode. API is Application Program Interface and SDK is Software Development Kit. They are, more or less, used interchangeably. I stop now.
Funny, but true. Corporeality prejudices do indeed occur throughout virtuality. I tend to prefer the whimsical furry avatars, but after many comments during some professional events in Second Life, I decided to have at ready a human avatar…just in case.
I assume having a bizzare or creative avatar would be a bonus if interviewing in-world for a creative type position.
Sorry dusan, this guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about. First of all the Web by creation and definition is a 2D experience of links. A picture may be worth a thousand words, but not in terms of offering needed information like the Web does. The web is but one of many Internet protocols, in this case “www” like ftp, pop3 and others. A 3D experience will only succeed as a new protocol, not shoving plug-in based interfaces to web pages.
The web is made up of pages, not necessarily always about one topic, but readable regardless of length and composed of various media limited only by client-side resources. A 3D experience is bound by server-side resources necessary to serve users in the same space. The Web is disconnected and fast for it while 3D is constant and managed and bound by many constant connections.
Virtual Worlds offer a contiguous experience (or they should) while the Web offers a connected through disconnected one. There will never be a 3D web and there shouldn’t be, the Web has been defined. Regardless of additions like AJAX it is still defined. Let the 3D experience find its own separate but compelling definition.
[...] push this idiocy. Dusan Writer recently posted a link to another writer’s coverage of Second Life: Dusan Writer’s Metaverse Communications Expert Vouches for 3D Web Sorry dusan, this guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about. First of all the Web by creation and [...]
The issue of whether 3D worlds will become “like the Web” is one of those conventional wisdoms floating around that I take exception to. I think it’s a failure of imagination to picture the metaverse as either: the “flat” Web is disappearing, and the 3D Web will be neither a contiguous space of its own nor something cobbled to the back of HTML.
As I reported from VW08, you see some of this in the argument, er, I should say discussion between Raph Koster and the Lab – two philosophies of how virtual worlds will evolve, and yet I’m of the belief that while there’s room for both, neither of them are fully “right”.
Not including the source code for SLim itself, notably.
[...] to Dusan Writer for pointing this out to me. No Comments so far Leave a comment RSS feed for comments on [...]
She’s got a point. I’ll pay little payments into SL all month, then realise at the end of the month I’ve spend $50+ in SL that month…
Thanks Dusan. Jordan still thinks I’m on something hallucinogenic. There will always be a place for online ads, but within the next several years, I think we are also going to see an increase in the revenue models built on micropayments. Velicia’s comment is a perfect example; anyone would balk at paying $50 for ANYTHING, but tiny little things over the course of a pay period will add up. That’s how Amazon makes money on Amazon Prime; even frequent users will end up buying MORE things from Amazon over the course of the year based on the free 2-day shipping. It’s worth it to avoid a trip to the store, and the key is to make consumers think they aren’t spending that much money.
Micropayments have been shown to work in virtual worlds, the problem is that on the rest of the Web there’s so much friction between your cash and spending it. Until you convert money into some sort of denomination it’s hard to get you into a micro-spending spree. It baffles me why there’s not a more efficient system. I’d gladly pay a few cents here and there for reading a really great article, (voluntary payment maybe but I think of it like a tip jar in Second Life – easy to do, small enough that you don’t feel it, but adds up for the receiver). Or think iTunes – it’s easy to spend $.99 – but that’s after you register, after you load up your account or link it to PayPal and all that.
I mean – if the Long Tail theory is right (and sure, it is, I just have problems with the idea that it replaces traditional media models – all it does is supplant one large distribution channel for another, although content developers can still pick up sales at the long end of the long tail where they couldn’t before) then the monetization of that needs to be matched with a long tail finance model.
Does any of this mean that advertising is dead? Of course not. But micropayments will be the largest driver of economics on the Web and in virtual worlds and games, especially if this last barrier, the creation of virtual wallets say, is overcome.
Tremendous recap – and great blogpost title btw. I have nothing but admiration for this lot. Thank you for posting this, Dusan. It’s the next best thing to being there.
Great article Dusan, I couldn’t make the event but this helped alot!
Kyle “G”
Hey,
I’d say as a speaker on that panel, those translations are very bang on – and despite David not finishing that sentence, yes we want people to come in, test code and submit feedback.
Our mailing lists are the best spot for more drawn out discussions, for code contributions (including alternate modules, implementations, etc) put them on our mantis tracker (and also the mailing list if it touches core code), the only consideration for submitting code is our coding policy (http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Contributions_Policy)
That’s really an interesting take. The common wisdom in the industry is that without something entertaining to do, people don’t form social bonds — so just as Puzzle Pirates relies on the gameplay to create social bonds, SL relies on building, and the activities users have built, to create the social bonds.
So “the off-chance hope that in entertaining them they create social bonds with each other” is currently considered to be the biggest chance, just about. What would you suggest is the alternate approach?
“so we work hard to keep our workload reasonable.”
Is it just me, or does that sound an awful lot like “we work hard at not working too hard at all” ?
wrong wrong wrong, they get it all wrong. if they were still a lab they would try to make an OS out of Second Life, not trying to reach for the masses. (it’s all for the profit now, i guess.)
implementing functions for editing documents, managing pictures and browsing the internet, this shouldn’t be that hard and while they keep on developing things they could enable users to run programs FROM SL, like launching them FROM SL.
they should really try this, putting the whole thing up on a raw linux distro, maybe this could be called SLix or something.
i know it’s a huge task, but they have the $ from land tiers anyway…
Odd, this announcement also slipped by the developer community:
http://www.virtualworldsnews.com/2008/09/rivers-run-red.html
If you saw the booth at the VW Expo, you would of seen Rivers Run Red almost merged in with Linden Lab. I also saw a demo of their Immersive Workspaces web application to 3d space.
Hahaha – oh dear. Yeah, you’re right Raph. It’s what you get for live blogging it and then not thinking too much before you hit publish.
I guess my issue is sort of philosophical. And I don’t mean to pick on SmallWorlds, but to use it as an example, but when it was launched it wasn’t a world. It was a series of semi entertaining games. When you played the games, you had a little cartoon avatar that stood there, that you could buy clothes for, and that could chat with other people standing 2-dimensionally in a sort of lobby. It felt like “bolt-on” social bonding. The mechanisms for socializing were disconnected from the purpose of the space.
It felt like going to an arcade when I was a kid – you might be in an arcade, you might be standing beside someone, and your connection to other people might be about sharing a few tips on how to clear a level or shoot the asteroids or whatever, but it didn’t make it a ‘world’. The ‘world’ part of a video arcade existed outside the arcade itself – maybe you meet people and maybe you go out to a movie with them or head home to play on your Commodore, but the arcade was a space in which there were games and people collided because they were there for the entertainment, but it didn’t make it a world.
I like Prok’s definition: a virtual world feels like a place, it has other people in it, and it has drama.
The sense of drama in an arcade could be around getting the high score. Plunking your allowance down on the off chance you could hit the top of the leader board. And sometimes games would allow two players and that was about as close as you got…competition as the source of emergent experience, but within a narrow window.
So the philosophical point, I guess, or maybe one of nuance, is a question of whether the mechanics of the space facilitate shared drama. Does sociality (which gives us the definition of a world) emerge from the mechanics of game play – shared quests, guilds, group competitions, sharing archetypes, that kind of thing….does it create rich social experiences.
It’s the same, to a degree, with browser-based rooms: just because I can fill my house with youTube videos, that doesn’t mean that sociality emerges – I either port it in, like with Vivaty where you invite your Facebook friends, in which case you’re extending a real social network into a virtual space, or you find other mechanics to facilitate it like the ability to co-create objects.
As I’m writing this, I’m bumping up against the wall of my own fuzziness. Maybe this deserves a longer post. But I’ve been fascinated by the game field’s struggle to add “social media tools” to games, and by the idea that virtual worlds need games to create stickiness, and by the concept of social media embedding games like Facebook. Is Facebook a world? Is it a world if you have a series of games and then add avatars around the games?
I think there’s something here about how tightly coupled the ‘game experiences’ are to the sociality.
My issue is somehow related to the idea that the “publish” model makes the social aspect peripheral to the mechanics of the space itself. That without the user generating content and without sociality emerging from the mechanics of the space then these environments sort of take the attitude of “we’ll provide some entertainment, you provide the social bonding and stick around a while because of it”.
Thanks for keeping me honest though, I think I’m going to need to do a better job articulating whatever it is that bugs me about some of these business models.
(Oh, and while we’re at it…I think that Spore ended up doing much the same thing. It is NOT a world. It’s a game. Judged as a game it has some beautiful mechanics at least in the first few phases, but I really have a hard time calling it an MMO. The social stuff feels like an add-on and doesn’t turn it into a world – it turns it viral maybe, but doesn’t make it a world.)
Thanks all…
I have to say I was very impressed with the Rivers Run Red application. Not because it included a robust Web workspace coupled with the builds in SL, but because it did it based on the core mechanics currently in SL itself.
This idea that SL needs to merge with the Web is sort of misleading – SL already HAS merged with the Web. SLExchange, blogs, the Loco Pocos Web site and community, Rivers Run Red, wikis, OnRez…all of them are integrated Web-based applications that help facilitate multi-platform ways of accessing SL-centric content.
I’m with Anonymous however – I’d like to see Web content IN SL in a more robust way, without breaking the Grid, and without turning it into a wasteland of Web-based texturing. I’ve seen art exhibits, for example, that generate textures on prims based on Flickr streams….you input a word, the textures display all the photos tagged with that word.
Embedded Flash applications in world that you can actually click and interact with, and opening the door to collaborating to a degree on documents (much like Qwak say) would open up a new richness of content. Whether the Grid can sustain this level of dynamic content is a real issue, I imagine.
How SL needs to be embedded in the rest of the Web, I’m not sure….but if they’re headed down the Lively path of embedding mini SL Grids in my Facebook profile, forget it. Embed my avatar maybe and link it to SLim, but don’t ever forget that a virtue of SL is the sense of a contiguous space (even when it isn’t) and the feeling that it’s a world not a mini application embedded all over the Web.
Hmm. And now that you have me thinking about it, it also occurs to me that I’ve got to think about why these definitions even matter.
[...] in LA I had a chance to get more information on Blue Mars, about which I’ve blogged before here and here. Now – it’s vapour until it’s in alpha or closed Beta, but it sure looks [...]
[...] I had a chance to get more information on Blue Mars, about which I’ve blogged before here and here. Now – it’s vapour until it’s in alpha or closed Beta, but it sure looks impressive. [...]
[...] panel discussion or visiting another booth and asked about 3d in the browser. For instance, here is a blog post by “Dusan Writer” where the following is noted from one panel discussion: “…plug-ins or downloads mean you’re [...]
You couldn’t be more wrong, and more stubbornly wrong.
Imprudence is exactly the wrong way to go, and your celebration of it is suspect, given your track record as someone more thoughtful and considerate, and supposedly driven by some notion of public service with this viewer contest of yours.
There is nothing wrong with the search, Dusan. Like so many people, you are stuck on using SEARCH ALL, most likely, it returns all the ridiculous junk the Lindens have put in it, and it becomes useful. Once you stop trying to use SL as Google, and use it as amazon.com with *tabs* you will find it more intuitive. It’s a world. It has classifications. It’s not a big telephone book or search engine. It’s a world. The search functions best with the places tab for finding things because things aren’t on pages, Dusan, they are *in places* and place *matters* in SL.
The open sourcing of the viewer is a sop — it was handed out to these rabidly extremist tekkies in the resident population, and some of their Lindens friends, as something for them to gnaw on while LL lined up its ducks for the broader concept of entirely opensourcing the server code or licensing the connection to the asset servers. That’s all. It can’t be taken seriously on its own terms.
I feel sorry for you spending so much money in what now appears to have been a bid to get the Lindens to notice you and do what you want, and not *really* about finding the best viewer. Again, I thought better of you.
Your whining and attacks on the Lindens now for not grabbing your viewer or getting excited about what three tekkie designer nerds came up with, even being the same kind of nerds themselves, let’s me know that you viewed this exercise ultimately like Impudence — trying to overthrow the publicly-supported viewer to impose your own views, even over the Lindens’ heads, who are the only barrier between the extremism represented by you and your comrades and the rest of us.
And what’s more, you failed to understand the Lindens’ psychology. They don’t want excellence and competition from their residents; that makes them mean and jealous. They want sycophants. Fanboyz.
You’re not supposed to excel, Dusan. You’re supposed to be mediocre, and make it all seem like any bright idea is all theirs.
I’m personally glad my own odyssey in reaching this understanding was faster and far less expensive than yours, when I tried to do a railroad sites building contest in concert with their rail stations building contest. It was a total flop because the Lindens enable griefers to destroy any initiatives like that but also kill it by their own indifference or active snarkiness.
Firefox is a nuisance. It has so many annoyances. You’re blind to all that. It’s paid for by a rich man as a hobby, pretending that things like this in fact are made for free by “thecommunity”. It’s a shill.
The one thing I will agree with you about is the Lindens’ lack of a Big Idea when they tout connectivity for connectivity’s sake. This is the fad now. It’s all about the pipeline and not the content. But that’s because they want to be the only wants to fill in the content.
Um, no.
Standards do not “come from code”. First, people have to have a common understanding and an enterprise they find mutually acceptable, then they code what it needs.
Doing it backwards, as the geeks around SL keep doing, merely dooms it to irrelevance forever.
Here’s some thinner for your Kool-Aid.
1. OpenSim is not “driving innovation”. They have not produced anything different than an inferior reverse-engineered copy of SL. RealExtend isn’t interesting without a context of community and commerce, neither of which are present for OS.
2. Opensource isn’t about innovation; it’s about copying and taking things for free. I think the critique that Maklin Deckard keeps making on my blog, as a programmer himself, is valid: opensourceniks just make knock-offs of other people’s work, Gimp for PhotoShop, etc. They aren’t making anything that stands along as unique and original.
3. One of the shills that the OS people wield out for Firefox, or for their demand that VWs be “open” or have *their* standards, is that they want people to endlessly “build on modules” (like the muddle that is Moodle — God, a mess). But…these aren’t useful or valid because the general public only becomes annoyed with the excessive choices and lack of usability and fixability. The tabs of Mozilla are its most annoying feature, even though it’s supposed to be its unique proposition.
4. I detect a note of humour in your remarks about “OpenSim has a lot of people and adults” — well, so what? IBM is huge. It can afford to allow some of its long-timer programmers to go and play on SL and it doesn’t matter if they accomplish anything, they just keep their hand in.
5. Again, do NOT look to these people to make standards, they really can’t find their ass with both hands, as you clearly indicate in this discussion. They are unable to explain what they do even to an admiring geek or semi-geek public, let along the public at large, and it’s because they just fool around. Standards are made by grown-up real companies that have a stake in a real market, not rich people’s VC or their own money.
6. Policy should not arise from coding. Policies have to be for people, publics, stakeholders, businesses — and not coders. Coders should NOT make policy. Their voice is only one among many that have to be heard and sifted through, and often not the most practical or useful voice — they all took the economy, buy-sell, and IP out of their worlds, which make them useless.
In fact, David Levine is wrong. These people *do* bite. They bite *hard* and they grind institutions and values to bits and spit them out. They are destroying the economy and the successes SL enjoyed until now with community and commerce, and pretending this is “what disruptive technology does”. It doesn’t. They are not needed. No one needs interoperability at this point, and they are wasting their time.
It’s also a subterfuge to distract from the fact that LL doesn’t have its own business model lined up yet.
and to burn in another point:
Re: “You get the mechanisms in place first and then run policy in parallel” and others noted that social models, role transparency and trust were significant issues that would need to be addressed.
No, no, no, a thousand times NO. Code may come in the form of Lego parts; people’s needs, institutions, requirements for business are not so many little components. They are complex systems and they have to drive the coding, not visa versa.
This is a ruse cooked up by extremist coders who want to weld into their code certain political and economic decisions, like “let’s not have copy/mod/transfer because it’s too hard to maintain, let people call their lawyers”.
So they reduce this vital, living, NECESSARY part of the SL economy to a mere “module” that can be “added on” — or not.
Re: “Whether decisions are being made at the granular level that will later restrict the range of policy I have no idea – I’m not a geek. And where the forums will be for testing various notions of standards and policy is somewhat unclear.”
Uh, yeah, Dusan. You got that right. Of *course* that’s what is happening now. And you are nuts to be so blase about it.
I might go where Starax goes too, so long as my supply of L$99 entrance fees holds up.
[...] took an opportunity to use Dusan Writer’s post on ray traced metaversions to take a shot at Rezzable’s sim entrance fees, but really the part of the post that was of [...]
Anyone familiar with web browsers will tell you that Opera originated tabs. (Opera is a for-profit company; perhaps that, or the fact that IE7 now supports tabs, will ennoble them for Prokofy. In any case, there’s nothing in any browser that forces one to use tabs.)
Also common knowledge: IE started out as a hacked version of Mosaic, which was developed at the University of Illinois; what’s that again about open source only being able to imitate?
(I note also that here in the US we used to say that about the Japanese. Remember also Samuel Slater, who brought the Industrial Revolution to the US with what we might now call industrial espionage. Those darned Americans–they only knew how to copy things.)
So, will that be object code usable under Mac and Linux, or just Windows?
I really wish that LL would skip all the hassle by just not using closed-source packages.
Thanks for the comments. I’m going to follow-up with another post but I’d like to respond quickly to a few things.
The first is that I’ve found it impossible to discuss the idea of standards and code without first trying to grapple with the basis for the claim. And as I hope I made clear in the post, what I heard because of how it was communicated and what was meant are POSSIBLY two different things. On the one hand, there’s a dichotomy between two opposing views: standards versus code versus code from standards – but the openSim philosophy also injects more nuance into the debate by then injecting the “parallel policy” argument – so I’d rather also inject more nuance into the discussion as well….which is the subject of my next post on the subject.
A few very quick specific points:
1) My comment on innovation was compared to everything else on show at VW08. There is incredible innovation happening in OpenSim. I won’t list them all – you read UgoTrade, you’ve seen some of the innovations. And I’m not saying these innovations are appropriate for Second Life, but it really is a source of continual and significant structural innovation. Enhanced avatars, true browser-based clients, full integration with Web-based systems, procedural objects, artificial intelligence, mesh-based objects. Compared to the Lab, the level of innovation is continual and significant, but my point was in comparison to the other virtual world platforms at VW08 rather than as a specific reference to SL.
2. Yes, it was a knock-off, but as I said in my post they “may have used Second Life as its jumping off point, but that has moved well beyond that.”
3. I don’t believe I made a comment on whether I thought OpenSim was “right” or whether the modular architecture is a long-term solution to the objective of achieving ubiquity. Interesting, the guy from Intel said that part of their objective in working on OpenSim isn’t solely because they think it’s going to be the de facto standard, but rather that by being involved they get to test and learn about how virtual worlds work and, I assume, apply this knowledge to wider or other virtual world initiatives. So even the people involved in OS aren’t saying it will be THE standard, but they’re saying that the standards evolving from it may have applications elsewhere.
4. Yes, humor.
5. Yes, there’s a communication issue, I think. And again, what gets lost is the nuance – the heart of the matter is the comment that “policies evolve in parallel” but no one explained how, or who’s in charge.
6. I agree. And I don’t actually think they said that policy evolves from code. They said that standards evolve from code, and that policy then evolves in parallel. But again, this is the heart of the issue.
And to be honest, and I’ve posted about this numerous times, so it’s not a question of suddenly drinking the OpenSim Kool Aid – I haven’t changed my opinion that this sort of throw-away line or approach of letting policy “evolve” (in parallel or not) is a source of incredible concern to me, especially as it relates to identity and trust.
I don’t mean to sound blase – I’m not. But I really want to understand. And I want to understand because I really do believe that OS is a source of incredible innovation. And IF it’s a source of innovation then it’s not just going to sort of wither away – and so I’m committed to trying to understand it, as best as a non-geek can, and to frame the context from which they propose to derive policy so that I can contribute in a meaningful way even if it ends up being that all I can say is “NO NO NO”.
I had recently found myself yet again attempting to describe SL to someone who had no idea of virtual worlds. It is tough to know just what dimensions to outline. As I watched the video I first started thinking it was doing a good job but felt increasingly squeamish imagining it as the first introduction. But then, asking myself why they made it, I looked at the website’s ‘about’ page (http://reason.tv/about/) and saw their mission is to talk about “compelling stories about freedom from all corners [sic] of the internet…”
Reflecting on that, I think they do a decent surface skim on that dimension of SL.
(in a scene from a dance club, did I see Drew Carey’s AV shirtless and with really creepy back-hair? hehehe)
I think that they did a better job at explaining the possibilities in SL than any single news report on SL. They did include the sex side but by no means limited their report to that.
Though the machinima was crappy, low fps and their details off the mark – I am pleased to see that they didn’t bash SL.
[...] has been hired to bring stability to the Grid. As I pointed out in a previous post, Frank’s background at AOL and MCI wasn’t just about geeky coding stuff, it was also [...]
[...] can make SL seem “visiony” again, instead of sounding defensive about the potential and comparing it to Warcraft or [...]
Hi Dusan,
I thought SLim was great when I heard about it. I’ve been wishing there was an IM client I could use to log in and talk to friends, when I didn’t have my gaming computer close-at-hand (for instance on my laptop that doesn’t have good enough graphics) for ages! I was impressed that LL though of this – which, now maybe they didn’t. I’d love to try it out but thus far haven’t been able to find the download link yet.
Regards! Phrig
I don’t get your point. He is working for Linden Lab, right? So he’s a Linden, isn’t he?
Maybe you were looking for an avatar name? I don’t see why he needs that to work on infrastructure issues. Maybe he has an avatar or three but just didn’t bother to mention. Either way, what would it matter to accomplishing his tasks?
You seriously don’t see the implications if this was conscious Pais? Dear me.
Heck – why did you need an avatar name to reply to this post – just use your real name. And if you INSIST on using your avatar name like some child would, hiding behind anonymity like, well, like you have something to hide, then maybe this isn’t the Grid for you anymore.
In a community that has been based from the beginning on no cross-over to real world identity, you don’t at all find it troubling that the first time of which I’m aware a key Linden staff member isn’t using a “Linden” name?
Hmmm. Maybe what it is is they want to communicate to the rest of the world that they’re adults with names and titles. People with avatar names will become those damn kooky residents with fake personas who were part of that nutty frontier that Mitch referred to who will have to live with all the change to come and I guess decamp to openLife – or maybe you’re the one Philip referred to – the one with too much time on your hands?
And finally, if you’re saying that you don’t even think Ambrose needs to LOG IN to work on infrastructure issues, um…OK. I guess you’re right. It’s just wires, a product, a bunch of connectivity. He needs absolutely no association with the community, to attend office hours to hear people’s concerns or to meet in world with other Linden staffers (which is the main way that Linden meets, of course, seeing as they have offices on 4 continents or whatever it is).
As I said, this is either unintentional or signals a shift: the blog is for real people talking to “real people” not to kooky residents. OR, Linden is starting the shift to being able to choose whether you use your real name, a shift in policy that’s received no resident feedback other than a quick survey at log-in as to whether you’d PAY for it.
Which, if the latter is the case, then I predict the kind of split within the community that was expected when voice was introduced and a further shredding of the SL culture, such as it remains.
In my follow-up post I think I was a little more positive about SLim as a platform for future development including links to group chats and notices, a “sort friends” feature, etc.
They never meant to release it, they meant to announce it. I’d expect an “RC” roll-out next week based on what Vivox told me, or within a month if it’s like other Linden products.
Thanks Dusan, good question.
Frank is a Linden. He’s FJ Linden, and I think he’s a great addition to the community of Lindens, that the practical work he’s here to do will make things in SL better for all of us.
Yikes, methinks I touched a nerve. Since it is an election weirdstorm in my meatspace, I will weasel to say my question was feigning ignorance, playing devil’s avocate, to provoke you to be more explicit about what you were really trying to imply when you point out that Frank was too frankly un-virtual.
On the other hand, a good portion of his discussion was to reference his experience and background, which was accomplished under his RL moniker – one that is well know enough to be of import both to establish an indication of what’s to come, but perhaps also to bolster confidence in the future of SL(tm).
Thanks Katt for the clarification. I have no issue with Frank’s qualifications, but I fear that Lindens won’t be Lindens anymore, that Residents will start being real people, and that we’ll all have to adopt the IBM dress code and thus I’ll have to throw out half my wardrobe. Glad to hear FJ is a Linden.
I don’t see what all the fuss is about. I was introduced to him as FJ Linden by Katt Linden via her post on twitter (http://twitter.com/Katt_Linden/statuses/920530091) and on the post that you directly referred to it says FJ Linden. He is just a “recent hire” as he said on his blog and want to introduce himself.
[...] I’ve posted before about how the issues around avatar identity will keep getting more complex: as our avatars become [...]
i hate those hypocrites… oh my god, racist, racist…
why shouldnt a black guy look _strange_ to me when in my whole life i hardly met one aside from walking past the street once or twice a year?
i dont hate him. i dont like him. hes just another guy. but hypocrites like these who have no better things to do than making _stupid_ surveys can really p.ss me off.
also if every furry i have ever met is _weird_ why shouldnt i be precautious when meeting the next one?
or why shouldnt i be disgusted by their ‘yiff’? maybe they should do something for themselves so people dont get wary when they see one.
also*2 if someone is ugly, then he is ugly, period. you shouldnt remind him everytime that hes ugly, but he is ugly.
if you dont have a face, get a personality.
I think it is interesting to try out some experiments like this. SL has made me wonder if humans have an ability (as of yet scientifically unmeasured) to sense another human other than through the normal senses. More to the point: if a given avatar is operated by different humans, would that avatar have a different “feel” when it interacted with others?
A.I. in Second Life is getting ‘en vogue’ as it seems. For reference I plug the interview with David Bourguignon of MASA Group fame: http://www.web3d-blog.de/?p=195
–Dirk
Thanks Dirk.
I was also fascinated by the Fairyverse folks who had a booth at VW08 – Hamlet posted about them on NWN. Unfortunate name choice, I’d say, and more advanced than you’d think on first glance:
http://fairyverse.com/
http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2008/09/fairy-bots.html
I was inwardly disgusted when my brother video taped our dad’s funeral, including the open coffin. I didn’t say anything to him, though, allowing him to confront the death in his own way. I can only reflect on the vast chasms of differences between how my brother and I interact with the universe. For instance, maybe, I ponder, it allowed him to distance himself from the immediate moment by putting it in a virtual (taped/televised) slot in his mind. Or maybe he is just creepy and socially inept.
I have to give some of the same slack to a funeral twitterati – perhaps they are so infatuated in buffering reality in this way that the habit carries over to inappropriate moments. (I don’t want to check to see if they document their digestive tract.) Perhaps they were doing this for the benefit of not the whole web, but really a particular person or two that were not able to attend the funeral. In the same vein, perhaps they had friends that were supporting them, and this bit of the web’s virtuosity of connectivity and immediacy gave them a blanket of support.
I was getting text messages from Pais’ SL friends while the RL me sat vigil watching someone die. In those sad and loneliest moments of my RL in the wee hours of the morning, my SL friends seven time zones ahead of me were awake and reaching through whatever technology could bring us together in that hospital room… a cell phone text message.
On the surface, since we can see those twitters in public webspace, it is easy to think the author was a callous wank. Perhaps s/he’s just another one of us souls wondering the wilderness of experience, and a thread of technology helped them connect somewhere with another soul or two that could help give meaning and comfort.
Since I am in commenting mode: @”Maybe it does after you’ve spent 14 hours fixing …” – of course you are absolutely right.
I think the (virtual) world is in need of not only a more up-to-date viewer but rather a set of viewers or at least viewer modes optimized for different use cases.
One of these use cases could be handled by a business mode where exactly these communication and collaboration features that Phil is pointing out are simplified to the max.
But I dont think that one of the alternate viewer developers (currently coming up like Xenki or Imprudence) or Lindens themselves (currently in the process of revamping the UI) have something like this on their list …
- Dirk (Bartholomew Kleiber)
Pais – you’re absolutely right. There are all kinds of media and forms we use to communicate feeling. We mediate our feelings because it’s the way we know how, maybe – and cutting off the technology doesn’t mean that we somehow become authentic, nor does using technology make us unauthentic.
But I do think there’s something to be said for the occasional experience unmediated by technology. And to be honest, I think I’d put funerals WAAAAY up on the list of milestones in which I would have hoped that we could hold off the intrusion of Blackberrys and twitter streams.
But in this particular instance the Twittering wasn’t from a family member, it was a member of the news media. The reporter decided that his readers – people who didn’t know the family other than through the front page of the paper, would like to be kept posted BY THE MINUTE what was happening.
Which brings us to the question of the reporter’s role – I mean, is this any different than say televising, hmm…Lady Di’s funeral say. We’re all spectators? Does the way in which it’s reported matter? Is a Twitter stream better or worse than radio or TV? Or am I betraying a sort of ‘yesterday bias’ – I’m just not as young and hip as I never was kind of thing.
My whole reaction to this on so many levels is probably the most interesting thing about the whole story.
Ugh. I didn’t realize it was a reporter doing the twitter. That makes most, if not all, of my discussion irrelevant.
Seems to me that the reporter transformed the funeral into content for his/her media stream …. reducing a profoundly complex, layered ritual into data bits… ick.
Dusan,
I think that you’re right to focus on the development culture of the Linden Lab viewer. I’ve not been involved in large open source projects for all that long, but even in that short time I’ve seen that it’s easy to open source a project, but much, much harder to build a truly collaborative development culture around it.
In the OpenSimulator project we try very hard to maintain such a culture. I think that it’s much easier for us because we’ve always been an open source project. All our use cases, patches and documentation are wikified, mailing listed or blogged. Moreover, in OpenSimulator no one company even comes close to dominating (and hopefully never will), so there’s no default position where things are much more effectively done within a company for long rather than in public. We’re far from perfect, but I think that we do have a culture where as much of the development process as possible is open, public and collaborative.
Personally, I think that Linden Lab will in fact move in the direction of greater collaboration with the viewer development culture as the potential for this to grow the general community and their own business increases. However, it’s a hard road to get from there to here, involving both process and social changes.
How RBK should of handled it, this was back in 2006!
I did some work on the sim for the developer, back in the day…
This is like comparing oranges and apples. This was also pre-scultpie and a lot of other options we take for granted today.
Did you also know that you could click the avatar’s shoe configuration, it would then click out to the RBK website and you could order that actual shoe for real in that configuration?
The store wasn’t just a ’shoe store’ they also sold merchandise, the Scarlet Heart’s range of products and NBA shoes… (full disclosure I worked on the clothing range as a freelancer.)
My suggestion is, if you’re going to write an article about an SL historic project, do your research correctly.
You’re also repeating an old story, we’ve been here before and the experiment was just that, an experiment. Good luck to the new retailers of shoes in SL, we’re all on a journey here, learning from the previous projects to build more compelling experiences. As they say, we’re all standing on the shoulders of giants.
Hey David – and thanks for the correction. Sure it’s an old story….and really this is meant partly as a tongue-in-cheek reminder of whence we came.
Maybe my memory is fuzzy. What I do remember is spending a lot of time in that store because I was fascinated with how brands might take advantage of virtual worlds. I don’t remember other merchandise but then I do recall the store was this massive place with a few kiosks and then the shoe configuration booths and maybe the other merchandise was at the other side of the store, which seemed like a sim away at the time (I was a noob, so who knows).
Now, as a noob maybe I missed the button where I could order the “real shoe” – how many orders did you say you got again?
Look – all of this is experimental. You’re beautiful, wonderful, a giant David, congratulations. As you know, I don’t typically dwell on the ancient past, thinking back to the ‘good old days’ when there was more of a culture and people were more polite and the brands were piling on not wanting to miss out on the next best thing.
Funny how none of them were LAUNCHED as experiments – I don’t remember press releases saying “BMW is trying an EXPERIMENT in Second Life, something at which they expect to fail but learn from it”, interesting how it’s only an experiment after its done, similar to ESC and the CSI build “Oh, it was never MEANT to drive traffic or be a long-term thing” when all the quotes from the launch made them sound like they fully expected to change the media landscape or whatever. I suppose they said “NO” to the bridge to nowhere.
Anyways – again….all of those ‘experiments’ were useful in their way. The fact that every company piled on media hype contributed to a sense of promises not delivered.
I’m of the opinion that we’re headed down the same course today. When Philip claims that business collaboration in virtual worlds is EASY, that it’s significant – I mean, give me a break.
Those who don’t learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Thank you, Dusan. I’m happy to report that Jonas and Hung reached their modest fundraising goals.
Namav, who I believe will continue to make a huge impact on public policy regarding health and disability, is finally* receiving a level of rehab care that will allow him to live a fuller and even more productive life. It is, however, lonely to be hospitalized in a new city.
Really this is no different from real life. At job interviews people are expected to put forward a professional demeanor. Nobody dresses during their off-hours the way they would for a job interview, whether they like puttering around in a garden or wearing leather hoods and getting strapped to a whipping post. Part of what the interviewers are looking for in a candidate is the ability to put aside their own entertainment in order to represent the company hiring them. So yes, if you show up with a bird’s head and wings you may find the recruiter is less than anxious to place you. But the same thing would happen in real life if you showed up in gardening clothes or fetish gear.
[...] about why I think they’ve moved beyond “copying code” – I touched on all that in my post and follow-up comments by Prok and others. I do believe that OpenSim is pushing the envelope on [...]
[...] game gods and their ban buttons. One of the most intriguing recent developments was Lively and I previously wrote about their struggles with the TOS, enforcement, and ‘adult [...]
Long time reader and first time commenter… I’ve enjoyed your posts so far, but I have to say I think you’re missing the point on this one.
“With uniform rights as an avatar, I feel more secure in my search for that promise than I do in interpreting the fine print of someone’s tossed-together, modularized TOS.”
Okay… for a start… Raph’s rights are for players, not avatars… the two are completely different things.
A universal bill of rights for avatars (or players) just won’t work.
Different world builders are going to want different rules for their worlds. Raph is working out a set of rules for his world(s), which is fine, but there are always going to be people who want to set up worlds with different rules. A Christian world is going to have a very different set of rules from a Gorean world. This is why Linden Lab has had so many problems coming up with a lowest-common-denominator set of rules for everyone.
And what about jurisdiction? Everyone in SL misses out on gambling because of US laws. And age of consent gets lowered to the lowest in the world.
This is where world-building tools like OpenSim come in. OpenSim is just software, like Apache is software (whereas Raph is running a service, like Linden Lab… or flickr or YouTube). When someone sets up a webhosting business they say “this is what you can and can’t do on your website” if you choose to host with us. They get lawyers to develop their TOS which is relevant to their situation and context (e.g. the laws that apply where they are hosted). If you don’t like their TOS, you take your website business elsewhere.
OpenSim grid hosting services will operate the same way. And because OpenSim is modular and extensible, if there is a feature required to support a specific TOS it can be added. For example, if a Christian TOS doesn’t allow nudity I’m sure they can add a patch that ensures that even when unclothed an avatar’s private parts are covered with underwear.
So no… TOS will not be tossed together… they will be developed by lawyers familiar with the issues customising them for different grids.
Raph’s list is a good template, but it will be taken and modified appropriately. In parallel, virtual world building software will be developed to ensure the desired TOS is technically possible.
Addendum: In my Christian underwear example I didn’t mean to suggest that all behaviours will be controlled by software. Obviously the more flexible a world is the more reliance there will have to be on a TOS to govern user’s behaviour. My point was the TOS isn’t embedded in, or determined by the software, which is what you seem to be implying.
Thanks Sean, your comments are really useful because you’ve pointed out my lack of care in defining my terms. You found the same thing, in your correction to your initial comments (although I disagree, about which more later).
So first – and I want to make this as clear as I can because these are confusing waters.
First, I’m not implying that OpenSim NEEDS a universal TOS. In fact, my comments about OpenSim are meant to be related to policy, not the TOS – although I do use the example of a menu or buffet from which folks will eventually construct their own individual terms of service.
I think that policy is important and I also believe that there are a few fundamental policies that should underpin the development of OpenSim, and that these policies should be articulated sooner rather than later….and the OpenSim community seems to agree that there’s a need for this, they talk about developing policy in parallel to code.
What arises from policy are a number of things. It might be a EULA, a TOS, a storage system, central registration, or enhancements to the code. Policy is arising right now, for example, through AWG and interoperability with Second Life. I’m not saying I agree with where those policies or headed or that they’ve been sorted out yet – but policy is arising because no matter how many times I hear that OpenSim is like Apache, even Apache is built against certain policies.
I buy conceptually that OpenSim is a platform, it’s not a world. I’ve read the arguments, I’ve heard them talk about it, and hey – who can’t agree with Tarah5 Oh at UgoTrade?
It’s a bunch of bits and pieces from which worlds will arise. Those bits and pieces will be assembled into worlds when you add to them all the stuff that makes a world – sociality, place and drama as Prok says.
But that does NOT mean that policy doesn’t arise even before worlds are built. The best example I can come up with is still e-mail. I’m sure there are other examples or there are flaws with my example but whatever: e-mail is not a world (duh). It was built to let people send messages to each other. You don’t worry about how it’s going to be used, or Codes of Conduct over what the message contain, or rules over whether you should ever forward jokes to your entire friends list right? But the problem is, that policy WASN’T considered in how e-mail was developed (or maybe it was, they just didn’t know better). Because policy would say something like:
“E-mail should facilitate the option for the recipient to verify a trust relationship with the sender.”
If we had this type of policy, then maybe there would be no spam, and maybe I wouldn’t have a canceled ticket to Nigeria in my desk drawer.
That’s the type of thing I mean by policy.
Now, specifically with OpenSim, I’d propose that there are a lot of policies which if they were discussed and transparent and generally agreed upon would influence all those bits of code that make up this modularized platform from which worlds will emerge.
To give an example, and I’m making this up off the top of my head, but here goes:
“Users should have the ability to see what information about them is being communicated to individual servers.”
I’m thinking here of a parallel, say, to cookies. To the best of my knowledge, very little consideration has been given to user-side storage of digital identity data. I’d like to see a policy that says something like the above and then to see the code built and/or “scrubbed” to allow this policy to be executed. How would it work? Who knows, but what I’d like is that as I roam from grid to grid in the wide open future interoperable universe, that each grid sends me a packet of information, and that this packet is stored in a little “portfolio” which I always have the option of accessing. This portfolio would tell me what information has been collected and/or shared about me, what information has been transported from one grid to another, so that I have an ability to manage my identity. Now, this information could be a simple string: a series of 1s and 0s, each of them tagged to a particular type of information. Doesn’t matter what the mechanism is. What matters is that the fundamental policy of the “Apache platform” is that it should be built in a way where the gathering and sharing of user data isn’t hidden behind the veil of the platform owners, and that users have the right to know what’s going on behind the scenes.
I think if we had a policy that said “Systems should be built so that users always have the option of a) seeing what’s going on and b) because they have the right to see, modular systems can be built that will always allow them the option of not visiting sites/sims/grids where they don’t like how that information is handled.”
Think of it like your lag meter or FPS dashboard or whatever, except that in this case it’s an information flow widget.
OK, so I’m making this up off the cuff – but can you see what I mean by policy? A few universal principles about what the system should accomplish – not laws, but rather an articulation of some general principles. If this was a policy or principle, then as the little code bits were written they’d be mentally scrubbed for whether they aid or abet that principle.
Now, OpenSim is open source and all that and there will always be branches and hacks regardless of what policies are put in place. So, sooner or later, other policies will need to arise – there are standards in the code, but standards around things like trust and protection WILL need to arise. Think of it like a Verisign system for Web sites, or SSL (as soon as I give an example like that I always figure I’ll be jumped on for some giant hole, but it’s not my point whether these particular examples are the right ones, it’s that there are things that a USER looks for to assure trust, for example).
So, that’s what I mean with OpenSim. Policy not TOS. Because its open source, the policies will need to be quite broad. But these policies would help to shape what modules and codes get developed, would hopefully aggregate the developers to a degree around a few broad statements of principle, would create a sense of buy-in from the broader user community who doesn’t, frankly, CARE that it’s the Apache of virtual worlds.
And that latter is a critical point. Because OpenSim keeps going on and on about how this is like Apache. Users DON’T CARE.
Users didn’t care either that Web sites were built on HTML. They didn’t care that “The Web is as safe as using your credit card at a store – both are equally open to fraud and abuse.” They didn’t care about the stuff behind the scenes, what they wanted to know was “will I get ripped off on this big bad Web thing” and it was only when there was enough aggregation around a few policies that people started trusting the system, and seeing those little tick box signs on e-commerce sites, that they started buying stuff.
So, I hope I’ve clarified that what I’m saying OpenSim needs is a discussion of policy, around which I’d hope that the development community might rally, and in so doing would provide a focus to code development governed by a few broad principles that would hopefully become widely adopted.
But what I’m also saying is that even if they don’t, then bless them. OpenSim is still a technical innovation. It will still lead to a wider use of virtual world technologies. But I also think that the next wave of “deep innovation” will come from tackling the big challenges related to identity, trust, and portability. Because OpenSim isn’t the venue for that until you have large-scale experiments building on this “Apache-like” backbone, then it will be places like Metaplace that are first to see new approaches to commerce, microtransactions, identity toggling, etc. occur.
OK, so back to the TOS. I’d propose that Raph got it right when calling it avatar rights – it’s not a player that’s in a world, it’s their avatar. The player is subject to laws and whatever, the avatar is subject to the rules of the world, primarily governed by the TOS and its mechanisms of enforcement.
I’d propose that the EULA is the document that governs the player and the TOS is the document that governs the avatar, although the TOS can also be embedded in the EULA so that egregious damages under a TOS contravention can be pulled “out” of the world and applied to the real person – but the EULA is the vehicle for accomplishing this.
Thus, the TOS governs an avatar, because the damages and enforcement of claims is within the realm of what can be done to the avatar and the avatar’s possessions (or right to enter or use the space) rather than the player. The EULA governs whether the platform or other players can go after the player behind the avatar for damages and recourse outside of the direct actions WITHIN the platform – and it’s the EULA that opens the gateway to “real world law” rather than the TOS (which, again, is still embedded in a clause within the EULA).
So, if the TOS governs the avatar and the EULA governs the player, then isn’t software pretty much the only way that the TOS would apply, unless a judgment is “rolled up” into the EULA? Let’s not confuse the process of making or judging a claim here with enforcement, but I’d propose that software is the ONLY mediator for the enforcement of the TOS. That’s because the only tools that the platform owner HAS for enforcing the TOS are software-derived ones. It might not be like the underwear example, but all of the options are software-derived: banning, a message of warning, taking away objects or money, whatever. The TOS is meaningless if there is no equivalent software mechanism for enforcement. It’s ALL about the code. If it’s not about the code, then it’s EULA, and its courts.
And finally, I’ve heard this argument before about lawyers. And please. Give me a break. I was invited to a discussion of a TOS for an openSim program. There were no LAWYERS present, and there was no one who had the money or intention of using a lawyer – they were a bunch of people who thought “the risk is low, why bother with lawyers, we’ll just make this up on our own and swipe bits and pieces from other sites, and hopefully those OTHER sites used lawyers but even if they didn’t, who cares.”
I’d hazard a guess that 75% of privacy policies on Web sites were never vetted by lawyers – they were swiped off another site, or it was considered a low risk issues, and a lot of Web sites aren’t built and hosted in the US anyways where lawyers seem to stand on the street corners selling advice.
Now, having said that, I think you WILL see a few leaders who develop thoughtful Terms of Service AND EULAs, and that these get publicized and people pick up on them and so you end up with a few “templates”.
It’s kind of irrelevant – your point is correct. On OpenSim the whole objective is to let people tweak their approach to hosting worlds. I’m not particularly arguing against that. I suppose in conclusion because I’ve just commented more than I blogged…there is a great deal of ‘deep innovation’ arising at the intersection of games/social networks and virtual worlds, and that this deep innovation is arising not because of code but because of the application of code to different forms of policy.
OpenSim will eventually also be a source of this innovation, which is what I meant by the “I’m waiting for the rest of it.” In the meantime, the fact that OpenSim is currently for the most part an Apache rather than a source of innovative models around policy, it’s mostly technical.
One of the innovations I care about is how platforms view the user. As a user, Raph’s TOS is a model for how virtual worlds will stimulate a new level of innovation in which the user’s experience is shaped by an avatar-centric policy around rights.
It seems then that what you are talking about are the underlying protocols of how OpenSim works and interacts with other instances of OpenSim. Actually, a better example than email may be the Internet itself, as engineers are now saying if they had the opportunity to design it again they would do it in a way that would have more security built in, amongst other things.
As far as I can tell, the OpenSim team are alert to these types of issues, and are making the protocols and the software as extensible and flexible as possible so down the track they don’t say: “Hey… we should have built it so it can do X.” Hindsight provides 2020 vision, but all they can do is the best they can for now.
As for your example, I’m all for openness myself, but some grid owners might choose to not reveal what’s going on with my data behind the scenes. It’s their choice to do so, even though I may not choose to use their service. If their TOS says they have no obligation to make my data open and available, I can go to a grid where they say they do. It’s caveat emptor when I enter someone’s virtual world. It’s up to me to familiarise myself with their TOS in the same way I should be familiar with the laws of any country I visit in the real world. I can’t blame anyone but myself if I get busted for drinking alcohol on the streets of Dubai.
I think the fact that the protocols, standards and software are all open sort of satisfies your example anyway. The openness is the policy that will ensure your data is treated transparently. Anyway, I’m no developer, so I’m talking outside my realm of knowledge, and I’d rather leave it to developer to continue on this issue.
As to the idea that the software can reflect the TOS, I can’t see how. Sure, in my example you can use software to enforce the rule that no avatar can be naked, but how can you embed the rule that “No avatar should discriminate against another avatar on the basis of sex, sexual orientation, age, race, religion etc.” in the software? I disagree that the only tools a world owner has for enforcing the TOS are in the software. Apache can’t tell if something being hosted on a website is porn or not. That’s what the web host’s TOS is for. The interesting thing about virtual worlds is that they allow for a range of behaviours, just as in the real world. The only way to enforce many rules is through either a TOS or a set of Community Standards which are enforced by the world owner and his/her minions. At the end of the day the world owner is a dictator and their interpretation of their TOS is totally up to them. The users just have to cop it. I’m sure you can find any number of SL residents who have run afoul of the Lindens for doing things they thought were within the TOS or Community Standards.
As for the issue of lawyers, I find it had to believe that web hosts haven’t thought long and hard about their TOS. They are the sort of business that would have to deal with disputes all the time, disputes that can cause lots and lots of money. If someone is running an e-commerce site and they lose money because of a fuckup from the host you don’t think there is going to be some serious suing going on? Once again, this is outside my actual experience and is just my opinion, so I’d like to hear someone with some legal experience in these matters.
But I do agree with you lawyers should be in the room when OpenSim developers are making their plans. It can’t help having someone around to raise the sorts of issues that can influence the protocols and coding. And I agree that these sorts of discussions need to be had, because some of the decisions around the most fundamental protocols are harder to fix down the track, and the broader the issues discussed and thought through in the early stages of development the better.
Hmmm….this stuff is so tricky, I figure I need to create a glossary or something. In any case, I think we’re agreeing with each other but just don’t know it. I am NOT saying that software can be written to INTERPRET a TOS – I’m saying that a TOS is only relevant insofar as how it’s coupled with code.
The ONLY tools available for a TOS to be valid are code-based. I know this is going to sort of sound self-evident but a violation of the TOS only occurs because the software allows for it, and the enforcement of the TOS is only possible because the software provides mechanisms for doing so.
Let’s say the TOS says “Thou shalt not steal.” Perfect. You try to build systems to prevent stealing, you put permissions in place maybe, or like Warcraft you can try to embed all kinds of snoops and devices on the user’s machine. I’m not saying these things SHOULD be done, I’m just saying that out of the TOS arises the need to make sure that it’s synched up to a degree with the code.
You won’t write a clause in the TOS that says “Users have the right to be anonymous” and then (like, say, Twinity did) have the user’s real name floating above their head as they wander around the grid. So, obviously, you try to synch the TOS with the code.
This doesn’t mean you try to write the code in a way that monitors behavior, enforces it, or prevents it – all it means is that the code and the TOS work together.
I think this is really critical, because over time, worlds evolve. And I pointed this out on Raph’s site as well – that one of the critical elements in all of this is the fact that the TOS and its enforcement is evolutionary. You can try to be as specific as possible about your codes of conduct or TOS, but there will always be things that are open to interpretation over time. Second, being evolutionary as code is built and deployed platform owners will need to be keenly aware that there is an interplay between conduct and code.
Look at Facebook. They build a system, they build code, and that system denies entry to anyone who’s not at a university. Or later they open it up, and deny entry to anyone without an invite from a friend. Each shift in policy is accompanied by code, and the more tightly coupled you can make these, the more consistency you can create, and the deeper the sense of commitment by the community.
Now, I am NOT saying that code needs to be developed to monitor or enforce individual elements of the TOS – just that there needs to be a consistent coupling – whether loosely or not. Second Life is a hotbed of lessons learned on how the code and policy can become disjointed, or can result in unexpected outcomes, or can work beautifully to facilitate benefits to both the user and platform.
The ability to sell your work. That’s a TOS item. And it leads to code that includes micro-transactions and permissions.
The code is also the only source of enforcement. You’re not going after the PLAYER’S bank account, you’re going after the avatar. You don’t ban a player from heading down to the local mall, you ban the avatar from entering the world or sections of it. If the code isn’t constructed in a way to allow the platform owner to enforce it, then obviously there is no TOS.
And this is also an important point, because the TOS and enforcement, coupled with code, allow the platform owner to set a context for the community – but there will always be griefers or, well, people who want to understand where the limits are and will push up against those limits.
I can’t remember which platform introduced a “jail” for people who broke the TOS. The problem was, people got off on seeing their avatar behind bars, and so they purposefully broke the TOS so they could get thrown into jail – and who knows, maybe there was some RP that happened in there, I leave it to your imagination.
But users will press the edges of the TOS to test limits, either for fun, for commerce, or because that’s how they get their kicks. And they’ll look for exploits in how the code allows enforcement as well.
Finally – on the lawyer point….who knows what the stats are. I can only tell you from my own experience working with Fortune 500 companies – I’ve launched dozens of Web sites on their behalf, and only ONCE did they actually have their lawyers look at the privacy policy, disclaimers or copyright notices. We’ve typically used one that was drafted in 1998 – 10 years ago, as a placeholder on a site, kind of like saying “Privacy Policy Goes Here”…and the client generally has come back and said “I don’t want to have to go through legal, it will hold up our launch” and just lets it ride and prays for the best.
And I hate to say this, but some of these are Web sites about medical issues and they just shrug – a product or brand manager doesn’t have that much on the line, and to them it’s all just a big hassle that exposes them to little risk and who cares anyways. From my end, as long as they sign off it’s their business not mine.
Where I think we’re bumping up against each other however is in the attitude that ALL of the decisions about how these things get done rest with the platform owners. I have never understood why this conventional wisdom needs to remain conventional.
Why is it ALWAYS buyer beware? Um…check the newspaper…buyer beware didn’t do the US economy much good now did it?
We have obligations as users, obligations which people are slowly starting to realize have much deeper and more profound implications than they realized. But platform owners have obligations also, and is it SO wrong to say that there should at least be SOME kind of low threshold benchmark for what these obligations are? Why is that so harmful?
And please – don’t give me the “you don’t have to come here if you don’t like it” response. I realize there are laws that govern the ‘real world’ and many of these laws apply, depending on your jurisdiction, to virtual worlds as well (like hate crimes, say).
But there are also emerging issues about avatar/user rights that I’d rather embed into the discussions around policy NOW before the government steps in and sorts it out FOR us, thanks very much.
Mind you – I also think we’re agreeing, because as you say, “I agree that these sorts of discussions need to be had, because some of the decisions around the most fundamental protocols are harder to fix down the track, and the broader the issues discussed and thought through in the early stages of development the better.”
It’s just nice to agree, um, forcefully.
But, but, but…! The examples you use are ones that are related to those rules you can support (to a degree) with the software. You haven’t addressed my example of discrimination, or something like Raph’s rule against simulating harm towards minors, which cannot be embedded in the software and are open to interpretation. In many cases the TOS has nothing to do with the code. Flickr won’t let me upload hard core porn, but that’s not hard-coded in the software, it’s in their TOS. Even those things that can be embedded in the software like IP permissions and swear filters can subverted (remember copybot?), so the world owners have to revert back to the TOS to enforce the rules. Anyone could have subverted the limitations of Facebook if they really wanted to. Where there is a will there’s a way!
There is a lock on the door of my house that makes it clear to people that this is my space and I don’t want people to enter without my permission. But it’s not really the lock that stops honest people from entering – after all, any serious burglar will jimmy it if he wants. The lock represents a social contract to not enter. But that social contract is backed up by law.
I still say the answer is to be as open and flexible and extensible as possible, and then let world builders create a TOS that will create the type of community they want then enforce it. Sure, add things like permissions where you can, but don’t rely on them. You will always need to fall back on the TOS, especially for grey areas. We are talking human behaviour here, and there’s nothing black and white about that.
And if OpenSim doesn’t have a feature you want, patch it. You want to let users choose any name they want for themselves (which seems to be the default at this stage), fine. You’re a boring ol’ business who wants to insist that all users use their own name, or use their corporate login, add a patch. I see no universal rules that can be associated with the software. That’s not OpenSim’s responsibility (even if it were possible).
As for the legal veracity of TOS… if a website or web service doesn’t do due diligence then it’s their own fault if they get done. Anyway, I was talking about web hosts, not the websites they host (although in the case of large services like flickr, facebook or Amazon they are one and the same).
And I’m sorry, but of course platform owners get to decide the rules for their platform. If I don’t like it I can go elsewhere. If YouTube won’t host my porn videos I’ll just go and find a video sharing site that does. This is the freedom of a free market. If they do choose to have responsibilities, like Raph is doing that’s fine (although I personally think it’s problematic), but platform owners are under no obligation to do so. You seem to have fallen for this myth than many SL residents labour under that because it’s a world (albeit a virtual one) users should be treated like citizens and have rights. Nope – not unless the world builder/owner grants them (and they can always change them without notice).
Hmm… I wonder if we aren’t talking a bit at cross purposes here because of the confusion over platforms, hosts, world builders, world owners and software. Perhaps we do need a glossary!
To me the future of virtual worlds should look like this – if you find a virtual world you like and are willing to abide by their rules, great! If not, find a hosting service and build your own world with your own rules! The underlying software needs to be so open, flexible and extensible you can make it do anything you want. The rules are in the TOS, not the software.
What an interesting thing, we the citizens, live like an ant farm. Only that in this case the ant farm wants some rights, and pretends to change the “constitution”, have a say on its “world”.
Wasn’t this a private company selling a hosted service, to users=clients? Don’t we understand that there is huge pressure to become profitable, have growth, expand to international markets, maybe become a public company?
Whats does this have to do with, citizen rights, and stuff?
This is not a constitution, its a contract, like in a restaurant, you don’t like the food? you can leave. And we are not a society, we are bunch of personal interests hosted and linked in a virtual scenario.
Well anyways, of course I am totally joking, if virtual communities want to grow as they plan and become this huge phenomenon, they NEED to release control, specially to the citizens. Who in return will always understand the community is run by a a profit oriented company. Managed by not perfect human beings.
Such a balance needed!
But our virtual community owners will never release control, or act (apparently) against their best interests (money and growth) until we prove, as a virtual society that, this is precisely the best thing they can do for their capitalist interests.
Our good is a common good. Etc. you know the drill.
Lets go prove it.
Mony – Good point, and I think what’s interesting is that Raph is intending to make money, and that he possibly sees a strategic advantage in shifting ‘rights’ to the ants. Maybe he raises the bar for the rest of them.
OpenSim on the other hands is NOT for profit it’s the companies who use it who will be profitable. Which is why it’s so odd that there’s always so much resistance, I feel, to discussions of policy. I mean – look, the Mozilla Foundation has POLICY, why is this such a stretch?
They have a manifesto, they have a Statement of Direction, and all of these things help govern how all the bits of code help end users – the ants. That’s the point of open source really, or I thought it was – to rip coding out of the hands of closed off corporations so the ants could have rights and the common good could be advanced.
I mean…do the OpenSim folks subscribe to the following for example (just sub in the words virtual worlds for Internet):
1. The Internet is an integral part of modern life–a key component in education, communication, collaboration, business, entertainment and society as a whole.
2. The Internet is a global public resource that must remain open and accessible.
3. The Internet should enrich the lives of individual human beings.
4. Individuals’ security on the Internet is fundamental and cannot be treated as optional.
5. Individuals must have the ability to shape their own experiences on the Internet.
6. The effectiveness of the Internet as a public resource depends upon interoperability (protocols, data formats, content), innovation and decentralized participation worldwide.
7. Free and open source software promotes the development of the Internet as a public resource.
8. Transparent community-based processes promote participation, accountability, and trust.
9. Commercial involvement in the development of the Internet brings many benefits; a balance between commercial goals and public benefit is critical.
10. Magnifying the public benefit aspects of the Internet is an important goal, worthy of time, attention and commitment.
So, sure….Linden Lab is a company. Metaplace is a company that decided to give avatar rights and perhaps will benefit strategically. OpenSim I’m told is Apache and is a bunch of code, and is divorced from the policy that’s built on top of that code, and yet OTHER open source projects subscribe to policy and principles, I just continue to be baffled.
“It’s as diverse as the real world. It’s hard to characterize it as dominated by any one thing. It’s a lot more about being social. About shopping, buying and expressing oneself. Last weekend, we had a huge “hair fair.” People want to buy hair for their avatars.
“We can only pray That Phillip Linden will discover this as well
I wonder who made M’s skin? His avie looks remarkably like him.
Ah yes, Kean. Pip, I fear, is so far into the singularity that he doesn’t understand the importance of hair. Or maybe he doesn’t know how to attach it?
[...] peek at some user generated content was posted recently, and although it’s nothing astonishing, that was alpha phase [...]
OK… I see what you’re getting at.
But first… making money is a red herring. Many of the virtual worlds of the future will not be about making money. There will be non-profits, educational institutions and groups of like minded people setting up virtual worlds for themselves and their friends (e.g. furries). The hosts they will use will be making money though, by charging for hosting services (in the same way that web hosts charge for web hosting).
On to policies… So Mozilla Foundation has a policy. But OpenSim is not a foundation – it is a piece of software being developed by a team of programmers from disparate backgrounds. At this stage, anyone can contribute to it. They do, however, have a policy with some Core Values – http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Contributions_Policy.
Would it be a good idea to set up an OpenSim foundation to help guide the development of the software along beneficial lines? If this is what you are asking, then it’s a good question.
I believe that the metaverse (whatever shape that takes) has the capacity to greatly enhance humanity, as the Internet and the WWW have, but that can only happen if it is based on open standards, protocols and formats. A foundation and a policy at this early stage sounds like a good idea. The Apache Foundation looks like a good model. The Mozilla Foundation policy you list looks like a good guideline for a policy. One day the OpenSim guys might form into a foundation, but until then it’s just a team of individuals working on software.
I’m neither a programmer or a member of the OpenSim team, so perhaps the next step in this discussion is to ask one of the lead OpenSim developers what they think about the idea of setting up such a foundation and developing a policy.
I will point out though that a policy guiding the development of the software upon which virtual worlds are based is very different from the end user bill of rights and responsibilities that are used *inside* those worlds, which is where you started.
And Mony is right – if you want it, maybe you have to build it. Perhaps your next post should be about what you think the guiding principles of the coming metaverse should be (you have a great start with your substitution idea above).
Even better, if you believe in open source, then stick it up on a wiki and get the community involved.
Even better still, how about suggesting a meeting in-world to discuss setting up a foundation and a policy? Contributing to open source projects is not just about contributing code… there is a lot of admin type work too. I’m sure Adam et al are very busy with what they are doing and would probably appreciate you taking an initiative on this.
I’m up for it. I don’t want to leave the evolution of the metaverse in the hands of the hundreds of commercial virtual worlds startups that are training kids to be good consumers. And who wouldn’t want to get in on the ground floor of developing the rules for the New World?!
And yet again – another missed opportunity to grill M on the promise to open source the SL server software this quarter, and how their business model is going to survive that. Grrr!
*applauds*
Thanks Sean for such an amazing discussion. I’m sure most people have other things that excite them on a Friday but this is as good a way to end the week as any.
I believe there’s a movement afoot with the OpenSim folks on the foundation idea – something I ran across today:
http://mrtopf.de/blog/secondlife/1-year-architecture-working-group/
And I love your final paragraph, because on that we can unequivocally agree.
Sean: The best comment I heard about this was in a back channel. This person proposed that by working on and talking about open source, Linden had the effect of chilling venture capital investments. By talking up open source, venture funds who might have considered investing in competing virtual world platforms might get cold feet – after all, if the leader in the market is talking about open source and interoperability, then why would I sink venture money into a business that would compete with that?
I’m not saying that this is the motivation of the Lab, but it’s definitely one of the benefits of murmuring about interoperability and open source a lot while they sort out what they can actually afford to MEAN (or, at the very least, to await innovations from open source that they can then swallow and embed in their own platform – which is also why I doubt they’ll ever open the server source).
Yes, I know about the AWG, and there are a lot of knowledgeable people in it talking about the types of standards and protocols that are needed for an open metaverse, but I’m a bit suspicious of it because of its alliance with a commercial entity.
More to the point though, would or should the suggested foundation be one to guide the development of OpenSim?
Essentially the only change that I can see here, is that Orientation is now forcibly bypassed rather than optionally (with a second click on the SLURL after logging in). So, this essentially improves the user experience by… One mouse-click?
First, every mouse click matters.
But I also think there’s something substantially different between inviting someone to “generically” enter Second Life and sending or posting your particular location and that’s where they land.
I’ve had friends register and I can tell you – the whole process of getting them out of orientation to wherever I am is a lot more than one mouse click. You have to either communicate with them outside of SL – using Skype or MSN or whatever. Or you have to hope they notice the chat in the lower left (amongst all the OTHER local chat they’re getting from mentors and spammers and whoever) and then hope that if they DON’T manage to see the chat thing that if you send them a teleport request that they understand that it’s YOU.
How much easier to say: go to this Web site, follow the steps, and when you arrive I’ll be there to greet you.
Well, that was how the referral program used to work. You’d send a friend an email, and you could tick a box to have them bypass orientation and come directly to you instead.
A fantastic site, and brilliant effort. A great piece of work.l
It does sound like the referral program as Tateru describes it, but I don’t know what the sign-up process was like for that or where the new resident’s Home was set.
I made a new alt to test this. Basically there was one short form to choose your name, page to chose avi, get confirmation email, download, start up SL, go back to SLURL page and click TP. On arrival at the destination of the SLURL, there were a few small screens with movement basics to click through in the upper left. Home was set to my arrival point.
I’ve been through the same hassle with new folks being stuck in Orientation where you could not come to help them, and being given too much to learn in one session. Not to mention the potential disconcerting encounters with griefers.
To me, this is a hugely improved process for the types of people I would be inviting. I was surprised but very pleased to see Torley’s introductory video pop up on his Twitter feed late at night/early in the AM a couple of days ago.
I love the idea of having some vidtuts for folks to watch during the download. Another idea would be for pop-up invitations to appear periodically to see videos or go to tutorial areas during the first days or weeks of the membership. You can learn faster once you get your bearings and are beyond having trouble just moving in the space.
[...] 21, 2008 by piensl Traté y traté y no pude conectarme a SL esta tarde. Al ver el blog de Dusanwriter entendí…habían sobre 70 mil personas conectadas (70,298 para ser exactos). El incremento es [...]
[...] fully composed and rendered in 3DS. And it’s free. (But I beg of you, make a donation!) I wasn’t sure it could deliver when I ran across what was promised – but it does, and [...]
Yes, 3DS Max purists might not enjoy working with prims as much, but for the person who is fairly SL-centric (and there are a great many of us) the power of working with prims cannot be overstated
The ability to use powerful ray-traced lighting, complex Materials and Maps, and all of the other goodies 3DS Max brings to the table has got me truly excited about building again.
And the icing on the cake? It’s gotta be the ability to have my work fully backed up on my local network drive, and less susceptible to the whimsy of the all-powerful Asset Server!
[...] there is a plugin for 3dsmax called Prim Composer and Dusan Writer tested it and it seems to be working very [...]
Takuan – I couldn’t agree more, being a primmer myself.
And you’re right – working with Prim Composer had me craving a week of building and experimenting – had me excited about building again as you say.
The major downside to Prim Composer is the cost – which is free, of course, it’s just too bad that 3DS Max itself is so expensive. On the other hand, this opens up new potential for enterprising content developers and I’d hazard a guess that the investment can be worth it.
[...] Dusan Writer: Sources of Innovation: Metaplace, Second Life, OpenSIM, and Rights (also excerpted at Metanomics) [...]
Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » Philip Rosedale on Second Life, Usability, and Getting Grandma a New Job…
So imagine for a minute that you’re a coding geek. And you read science fiction sometimes, and you know who Ray Kurzweil is and you actually believe in the Singularity. Now, imagine that somehow your geekiness lands you in Silicon Valley and somehow th…
He definitely needs a new vice-president of global metaphors. His ‘use case’ (how is a use case different from a use) is inadequate and defensive. It’s not the aha we’re looking for. The faithful image is to give grandma 6 hours intensive hands-on training on the web and see how she goes, not to drop her naked on the web while you give her clothes in a virtual world.
Philip suffers from what many of visionaries suffer from. He has a vision, but when he start talking it, just send him away to do it, not to explain it.
Though, I believe that it would be easier to introduce somebody to SL than to Web, in the case that both are completely unfamiliar. People who say that SL has a steep learning curve are the same that managed to forget that they had hard time getting on with web browser as well.
Interesting thinking here, Dusan. I was a competent web user before coming to SL 13 months ago. I’d also spent hours watching my son play various Everquest and listening to his enthusiastic descriptions and analysis.
The learning curve was steep and not always transparent. Numerous people were generous with their time, only some of whom I met on a help island. My biggest advantage lay in coming in to interact with an existing community, as it brought me into orbit around an expanding group of people, where someone was always available to answer a question, think something through or demonstrate a technique. Thankfully, I now pass that help along.
In my travels, I met the people of Heron Sanctuary, who contend with a range of physical, neuro and social disabilities. Now Virtual Ability, it might be useful to look at their new orientation center. Because it was designed for people with disabilities, they have taken all sorts of factors into account and nothing* for granted.
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Virtual%20Ability/128/128/23
I’m not sure I agree that visionaries have trouble explaining their vision. When I think about people like Mandela, Hawking, Gates, and Berners-Lee, ‘inarticulate’ is not a word that springs quickly to mind.
We could add Bucky Fuller and David Brower to that list.
This does sound like a turning point for builders and may fit in well with the recent “turnaround” that Second Life may be entering. However, 3DS Max is not only expensive, but it seems to be only available for Windows! No Mac or Linux versions available. Sigh.
I think WAPOL, rather than WAPD. The retirement benefits is really weird. Superannuation and worker’s comp are pretty much universal in Oz, so I’d be astonished if it’s true that retired WAPOL officers receive no benefits or support. I am sorry to note that your article fails to compare the Western Australian Police Service to either a terrarium or a job-hunting (and presumably eye-contact avoiding) grannie.
Dusan, Are different ways of knowing being created in the bifucation of self existence? Do you think we are developing new ways of sensing in virtual worlds that replace the RL senses which are not being utilized in a life-world void of physical reality?
Well I have lived with my RMU cousin since her demise in 2002 and can tell you 1st hand that it is true. Yes they do have Superannuation universally in OZ but you can not access it until you are in your twilight years and in the case of permanently retired medically unfit personal it can be accessed but at a HUGE Tax cost in excess of 50% leaving nothing for your twilight years. Not receiving any medical benefits and all costs associated quickly eats into that.
@Dusan:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/primdotblender
[...] parts of the interview from Wagner James Au, Christian Renaud, ‘Bettina Tizzy,’ Nic Mitham and ‘Dusan Writer,’ and Bejamin Duranski as [...]
[...] and What Is Philip talked about the user experience and the Second Life client. In my last post, I talked about his shifting ‘temporal state’. It’s my theory that Philip sometimes confuses [...]
I woke up one morning and realised Philip and SL’s problem too, except I didn’t dream any graphs, my head don’t work that way…
They DO have a vision for Linden Labs and SL, they’ve told us about it often enough – they want The Grid to be the HTML/www of virtual spaces. In this ultimate scenario Linden will hover around the edges and in the background, making it all join up and work together, like the virtual space (semi-commercial?) equivalent of ICANN. They won’t be responsible for any actual content just the infrastructure, connectivity and interoperability standards (and all the other geek stuff). All well and good, so what’s the problem?
The problem is that they’ve operated until now AS IF THIS WAS ALREADY TRUE! They have been hands-off with content (unless forced to be otherwise), have avoided any real inworld governance and concentrate primarily on the technical – failing to really grasp the PEOPLE stuff, including the UI, the first-hour experience, the reasons to stay etc – all the stuff you’ve called them on recently.
There’s something to be said for starting as you mean to go on but in this case it’s become more of an anchor than a sail. If virtual spaces are to become as ubiquitous as Pip Linden hopes then someone has to navigate and steer them there. Now M Linden has to retrofit a rudder onto SL and grasp it…
One more early-morning minor-revelation I had – Second Life’s ultimate destination (for visitors if not creators) is NOT in a web browser – it’s on your TV.
Seriously, you dream in graphs? That would really worry me….
“trying to improve the conversion behavior” – but what actually is the conversion *goal*? How is it defined or measured?
The worry with all this is the vast rhetorical overhang that buries itself in a cloud of unknowing. The danger is that sooner or later people will get sick of the rhetorical overhang and walk away.
I do not think Second Life s a bubble in the sense that the dot com bubble or the financial derivatives bubble were. The problem is that Second Life wears the same clothes and right now people associate that language with fraudulent boosterism. ‘The fundamentals of Second Life is throng’ is no longer an adequate way of speaking,
Putting out self-evidently untrue metaphors like the strange use case of the granny who goes naked into the Web but fully clothed into Second Life and somehow gets a job within 6 hours not only fails to close the sale, it adds to the sense of disquiet.
Second Life’s problems are not just code. They may not even principally be code. Second Life may have libertarianism at its heart, but when it comes to dealing with Residents it morphs from libertarian caring sharing fell good to an FOAD style of customer relations that is arbitrary, impenetrable and deeply alienating. JIRA gets largely ignored. Support tickets are a sad train of new definitions of ‘It’s all your fault’. Even quite large corporations with a string of sims cannot find anyone to talk with them at Linden Lab. When Dazzle was first introduced, and it’s only a skin after all) it was the best thing since sliced bread and those who objected simply didn’t understand its magnificence.
If Second Life is going to be a platform for a new company style, then it better start showing some of the advantages of its new style in the way it deals with its own customers.
Residents, corporate and otherwise, are not going to judge Second Life by the naked granny use case and the soft interface of customer relations needs, if anything, more work than the hard interface of the viewer. Management cannot be replaced with metaphors.
I absolutely loved this presentation, thank you for posting it!
[...] recent announcements strengthen this shift in to products: the launch of the SLim viewer, and the partnership with Rivers Run Red on Immersive [...]
[...] commented on the Rosedale interview, talking first about his vision for Second Life as a platform, and second the role of the user interface and [...]
Hi Dusan, check out my post on my take on SL user interface issues and related areas. In particular, I discuss the emotional bandwidth issue and possible solutions.
http://snipurl.com/3xq42
It makes sense to work on that “first hour” of experience. It also makes sense to figure out that “last mile” of delivery, too.
I have had such poor performance in SL over the last couple weeks I am finding myself either leaving or not attempting some of the things I normally enjoy, such as exploring.
I went to a live concert yesterday… there was great music and it was fun being there with friends from all over the globe, yet after being there for an hour or more, most of the avatars and location were not yet rezzed. I shifted my music feed directly to the shoutcast server, and the SL client was useful only for text chat.
Attempting to go to Burning Life? what is the use if it won’t rez?
I know this kind of complaining is a constant din… normally my take as been, “I am surprised it works as well as it does” but when my experience takes a hard dive and doesn’t recover for a couple weeks, it starts to sour the whole experience.
One good thing (as to not be all complaints) – there were no sub-prime US mortgages done with the Linden Exchange. So far it seems to be strong.
[...] Dusan Writer has a detailed critique on the second big news, that Linden Lab are hiring an external company to build a new “user [...]
I’m afraid you’ve got the headline wrong, Dusan — M isn’t talking about a new viewer, he’s talking about improvements to the existing viewer to make it more friendly to new users.
http://tentacolor.com/2008/09/29/a-new-sl-viewer-from-ll-dont-jump-to-conclusions/
As I posted on Jacek’s blog:
Correction noted Jacek. M clarified in the forum:
“The new viewer design will be an interface design. If we have to make changes to the underlying code base we will do that with care and thought. I am not sure at this point how much of that we will be doing. Also, we will be folding the great thinking already done in the Resident community into our work.”
Now, I always get stuck on the difference between viewer and interface, and clearly he’s talking about the interface which MAY impact the underlying code base.
And I assume on “great thinking” he’s referring to you!
thank you for describing this and where to find it, i am anxious to see if Straylight trees (phantom) will cast shadows
[...] Mundie sees future mash-ups between this sort of technology and the MS Surfaces ‘touch’ interfaces: [...]
[...] collaborating, a ‘virtual world’ on the X-Box platform (OK, well, avatars anyways), and their work with Calligari and 3DVIA, clearly put Microsoft as an emerging player in the 3D Internet space. [...]
[...] for using virtual worlds for meeting and collaborating, a ‘virtual world’ on the X-Box platform (OK, well, avatars anyways), and their work with Calligari and 3DVIA, clearly put Microsoft as an [...]
Dusan: I agree that MSFT has some interesting things going on with regard to immersive technology. My take: don’t expect Microsoft’s information worker division to aggressively embrace the Immersive Internet. Rather, this division is likely to sit back for a while to see how the Immersive Internet develops, and then get in the game. For information workers, Microsoft may move in the direction of integrating Virtual Earth with the company’s collaboration and social computing products. Virtual Earth already integrates with Office PerformancePoint Server 2007 for business data visualization. Imagine if: Microsoft went further and Virtual Earth was integrated with Outlook and Exchange Server and Office Communicator and Communications Server so you could zoom in on any address in your contacts database or buddy list, or in an email signature, and get directions and a 3D image of the location. Take it even further and picture yourself inviting a professional contact to come and meet you in the virtual park outside your virtual office in Virtual Earth, where your avatars sit on a bench together while you IM or talk via voice about, say, an upcoming business trip. Give it five years and this style of communication and collaboration will be commonplace. And Microsoft will likely be one of the vendors delivering it. Here’s a link to an article I wrote about this in July titled “My take on Microsoft’s Immersive Internet play for information workers” (http://tinyurl.com/56p6pf).
Erica Driver, Principal, ThinkBalm
It’s really hard to hold my tongue with regards to any notion of Microsoft being a top leader in any innovative new segment of the computing industry, frankly. They talk the talk, but rarely do they walk the walk with anything outside of what they’ve been doing for the last thousand years.
The people who really get how 3d will/should be used won’t be the mainstay computer OS types, IMO. A lot of the scenarios for 3d business use are too “weighty”… honestly, I can’t log into SL for less than 20 minutes. You have a load a program, log in… get the whole IM and notice thing… it just takes too long. If 3d really has a place in business software (and I’m not sure it’s not a case of everything looking like a nail) it needs to be lightweight and quick to use. Not something you have to feel like you’re logging into.
It’s a hard distinction to express in an understandable way, but it’s like the difference between logging into SL and getting something done vs. using twitter or blogging something real quick. The barrier to jumping into SL to do something quick is higher just because of the minimum time involved.
sort of related: ‘Creditability’, a serious game:
http://www.experian.co.uk/creditability/
It doesn’t surprise me at all that Microsoft is starting to put together a cohesive story about the immersive internet. The vision described above pulls together threads that have been in the works for over a decade. With an incredibly strong background in games, MMOs, cartography, very large databases, scale-out server farms, avatars (Microsoft Agent, the infamous “clippy”, game charaters, etc.), smart music composition (Microsoft Music Producer), social networking (much of this in MSR Labs), streaming media on a large scale, face recognition, lip-reading, haptic interfaces, flight simulators, train simulators, extraction of 3D information from 2D phtography, high performance computing (parallel computing), mobile interfaces, voice recognition, VoIP, robotics, scripting languages, and software development & packaging, they’re pretty well situated to deliver a comprehensive solution.
Aha! The Landmarks & Navigation project is pretty much wrapped up, so I don’t see why they’d be hiring now — unless they’re going to be doing more SL work in the future.
Seems there’s more to the story than just the L&N project. Good find!
I’m not entirely sure what the big secret is, Jacek. Maybe they don’t realize they’re being secretive? In any case, a smoking gun maybe, but on the other hand maybe Vectorform a) doesn’t update their job listings or keeps old ones up for the sake of, um, looking busy or b) is being contracted by someone else to develop stuff or c) is referring to another project when they use the word, in plural, “interfaces”.
Here I am reading the Linden tea leaves again! Hahaha.
But at least there’s smoke – and it’s always fun to speculate. Plus, I live near Detroit so maybe I can pop by and, um, keep them honest?
Pretty sure that job listing has been on there since at least April, I remember looking at it when L&N was first announced.
Ah see? I wondered why there was no date on their job postings – always makes you wonder whether it’s a way of beefing up the sense of how busy they are. In any case, at least we can get a confirm or deny from someone. Well, maybe not, but let’s see.
Pffft. Michigan? Don’t they realize the Second Life powerhouse they have right in their own mosquito infested backyard? (hint: they should just fire up the ‘Lordfly Digeridoo’ beacon and shine it into the Michigan night sky…
The Vectorform homepage looks snazzy, but when I try to read it, I’m not done reading before it automatically flips to the next case study. Imagine what they’ll do with SL… A new SL user has just arrived in SL, a little tutorial bubble pops up telling them how to move around (arrow keys), but it vanishes before they have time to read it…
Vectorform also has a page about their Second Life team, at http://www.vectorform.com/secondlife/
My impression from that page is that they’re a bunch of SL noobs; many of the team members have default SL avatars.
There’s another interesting interview with Craig Mundie by the Wharton School at http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=2060
It doesn’t mention that Microsoft is getting into virtual worlds, but does emphasis the focus on long-term investments and tapping into the research labs.
Well Dusan, there is something very important to learn from your article here. You have been visiting all these different worlds, signed up as beta tester to explore them and see what they are about. Still the thing you like best is an island made by people, not computer programmers, marketing staff, virtual world experts but just by people who bought land and started to do their own thing on their island and turned it into loco poco town. They like it, you like it and that is what it should be about. The most important thing to learn from this is that virtual worlds should be created by people, just as the internet was made by people. I think that is the correct direction for the metaverse to follow.
[...] New Second Life User Interface: With Vectorform, Will It All Be … [...]
Vectorform submits landmarks and navigation beta for Second Life…
As you may already know from the buzz back in April when the project kicked off (just prior to Kingdon’s hiring as freshly minted CEO of Linden Lab), the global interactive design firm Vectorform was contracted by Linden Lab to undertake the Landmarks…
La revue de liens sur les univers virtuels – Semaine 40…
L’actualité sur les mondes virtuels, les MMORPG, les mondes persistants non traitées sur ce site.
Français :
Nouveau serveur francophone : Mylaise, un évènement à venir !
Ankama Convention #3
Second Life : in world – out world, restez en ……
Interesting game. One thing that schools do not teach kids, in the United States at least, is how to manage credit. It would be nice if the school systems would teach this from grade school through high school. It is probably one of the more important items a kid/teen can learn.
Great post, seems like we will be seeing more and more of these ARG type of activities/experiences as the technological advancement will catch up all over the world.
Interesting to see what projects are there that successfully create such an experience and tie it maybe to their working habits …
Hi Dusan,
- great to see the Labour Party aboard.
- for almost two year, since the presidential campaign, now, the french socialist party has been present in Second Life holding events and debate.
- the slurl = http://slurl.com/secondlife/Bretton/174/226/102
- the web site = http://desirsdavenir-secondlife.net/
ciao – CU there,
TL
[...] via Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » Avatars Help Disabled Users in SL. [...]
[...] Avatars Help People with Disabilities [...]
[...] reales como la realidad que experimentamos cuando no estamos conectados. De eso habla el blog de Dusan Writers metaverse cuand refiere la opinión de una persona con condiciones especiales que dice…”Here in [...]
Dusan, I can’t believe you are recycling this over-used PPT of Jane’s — it’s ghastly. As if there aren’t horrible wars in Sudan, Iraq, Afghanistan — oh, and lots of nasty things in reality, as if it’s all about California Happiness.
This was all debated awhile ago, here:
http://www.raphkoster.com/tag/jane-mcgonigal/
Meanwhile your friend Jane was busy cooperating with the government of China to make an ARG around the Olympics. Sigh.
It’s crude and disgusting and atavistic, this idea that you can “make reality like a game”. Only goofy self-indulged people in a terribly affluent setting like Silicon Valley could come up with this stuff.
Uh, did Ted’s big exodus take place yet? And have you REALLY read his second book? The parts where he tells you that what happiness engineers need to do is to tape deep into the instinctual nervous system of the human being deliberately, and manipulate it? The way thrilling war games manipulate it? Ugh.
I suppose I didn’t sound sufficiently snarky so was unclear about my opinion. In any case, yes, I did read Castranova’s book and blogged about it at length:
http://dusanwriter.com/?p=229
While the arcticle is certainly an interesting one and it raises some debateable points, some sentences let me doubt, if it has been researched THAT well …
****************
[...] brands like US retailer Best Buy and computer vendor Dell Computers diverted LARGE CHUNKS OF THEIR MARKETING SPEND there, [... ] says Jack Linden, HEAD OF … LINDEN LABS
*****************
This reads more like a quick copy and paste job.
The bottom line is true, though: “Straight advertising” is all about the number of eyeballs I can reach through a certain channel. And SL has maybe 2 Million eyeballs to offer. Thats not really a lot on a global scale. Games have (substantially!) more. That’s it. True, but not actually a piece of investigative journalism
I think it’s time for a paradigm shift.
Not only in terms of that the relationship between 2D and 3D has to be explored but also how 1d (CLI) 2D, maybe 2.5D and 3D can go together. I thought there was an unholy ‘everything has to be graphic’ (what we call 2D now) in former times, and now we stick with it for no reason. That’s why I think that experiments like Goosh (http://goosh.org/ , sort of retro, I know) and Ubiquity are mandatory.
We sort of stick too much to ‘we went from 1D to 2D, now we have to move from 2D to 3D’ approach.
Gadget…
Great article, Go Gadget go…
[...] VIRTUAL WORLDS>> Now, sure, maybe he’s slicing and dicing, but it strikes the right note: at least he didn’t mention anything about grandmothers getting jobs in Second Life or how much easier it is to use than the Internet. It’s a crisp message.dusanwriter.com [...]
La revue de liens sur les univers virtuels – Semaine 41…
L’actualité sur les mondes virtuels, les MMORPG, les mondes persistants non traitées sur ce site.
Français :
VU : la fonction publique recrute virtuellement
LU : Monster lance les salons virtuels Monster eDays
la réalité augmentée débar……
inworld vs online advertising/sponsorship breaks out as– fewer more intense vs more less relevant. And the inworld participants tend to be more online saavy which means potentially there is access to people that will tell a lot of people what to do = personal reccomendation. So what is engagement of a few loud mouths with some tech/social web credibility worth? A lot more than spewing google adwords all over.
Plus inworld is very cost effective (total gibberish about Dell btw!). On a CPA basis it should be the most effective. Yet, the issue is gross new customers/new sales generated, which will be low.
Net net–inworld ad and sponsorship opportunities will yield big results for the companies that do it right (so far…er…none have done this).
We of course have some ideas on how this might work! But right now biggest drag on more rl companies making some experiments is the baggage with the SL brand.
back to the future…again.-)
originally published in 1997.
http://www.3dezine.com/3DeZine_01/features/interface.php
so much for new paradigms shifts. -)
and i suggest further research on ER and its “unique” buisness model for growth and commercial usage of others property and IP. I expect a similar attempt will be made in 2018 over the corpse of the “millions ” of user generated 3d assets built in SL, the virtual world paradigm shifter for the second generation of vr worlds designers;)
http://vrml-x3d.ning.com/group/protectingcreatorcontent
oh – btw— the vr winter of recent blogs—- it’s here.;)
its october again.:)
dont worry- the party begins in 2009 again.
what’s next— google 1998…-)
[...] ” …this comes to us from Keystone Bouchard whose Wikitecture project has been one of the highlights of SL in recent years.” Source [...]
[...] here. Took time to arrive but you can finally compile or recompile scripts using the Mono engine. . Originally promised for the first quarter of the year, Mono is supposed to speed up scripts as seen in this comparison [...]
Sadly, LL decided to not only improve things in the new viewer, it also is taking away usability and comfort at other places. The support for the especially for estate owners/managers very usefull Logitech G15 LCD keyboard that worked fine up to the 1.20 viewer was stripped out of 1.21 – making a $100+ investment useless. See http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-8553
[...] Under this philosophy, I’d imagine that rather than avatar data being hosted or held by the servers attached to worlds, they’d be hosted by the users themselves. Why should my avatar be held on some corporate server somewhere, or on some OpenSim grid in someone’s basement? I’m not saying this is technically easier, or faster, but I’m pointing out that the philosophy of how you treat avatars leads to code and how that code is hosted, which leads to a constraint in what sorts of policies are possible. The Mozilla Foundation, for example, is built on a few principles or philosophies. And I’ve written about that, and the open source Second Life viewer at length. [...]
[...] Here is the original post: Second Life Privacy Flaw Allows Tracking of Users, Anywhere, Any Time [...]
Simple solution. Do not IM people when you’re someplace you don’t want them to know where you are. The method described above will only report location if it has received an IM from you. Otherwise it has no clue where you are on the grid.
As for spouses, partners, Masters, Dom’s, Domme’s, etc. tracking and spying on their loved ones. People have been doing that in SL for ages with scripted objects and/or by just requiring that “can map me” is turned on. (map location is available via the web on the LL Friends list if it is on)
“You can see the region and exact coordinates of any user … with whom you open (but do not necessarily use) an IM.” Are you sure about that last bit? Which of the forms of that data block would you expect to get (and why/when) if you just open an IM channel to someone but they don’t speak on it? Of course if you say something they’ll be likely to answer, but if you say something meaningless every ten seconds just to do location tracking they’re likely to be suspicious.
Similarly you might sort-of-force a reply packet that would contain location information if you sent them a friendship request or TP offer, but again doing that constantly for monitoring purposes would be very obvious.
Is there in fact a way to get a packet like that back from a user without the user noticing? If so, that is indeed something that ought to be fixed (and should probably be pJIRA’d).
Second Life grid protocol leaks avatar locations?…
According to Dusan Writer, the Instant Messaging portion of the Second Life grid network protocols contains location information about every avatar who sends an IM to you. It’s been known for some time that the fields designed to encapsulate that info…
Things like this are an artifact of a closed system designed with little thought to what would happen if the system were to become open. The protocols of Second Life were designed with developer convenience in mind and not security or privacy. We’ve been seeing the consequences of this decisions for a few years now since the protocol was reverse engineered and then finally opened(sans actual documentation. GPLed code as documentation?).
To clarify: you do NOT need to say something to someone in IM to get their sim location. It appears that location (coordinate) data is passed as well, although this was not directly tested. So, the idea that you need to message people in order to get their location is erroneous – all you have to do is open the IM and not say anything.
So, Dale and Thraxis – your “work-arounds” don’t work. Because someone just needs to open an IM window to find out where you are. Similarly, muting someone does not prevent them from doing this.
This has always been the case, In fact, it used to be you could map anyone on the grid. Yes, anyone.
To be able to “turn off” mapping was a new viewer feature added about this time in 2006 if I remember correctly. back then, you had to actually turn it off as it defualted to on (which made sense since it is what everyone was used to.)
Over time, we all simply became used to that ‘feature’. However, if you think of it, that informat really does have to still be constantly tranfered back and forth so it works when you turn mapping ON.
Thus, mapping always happens. it’s not the design of the software to have the ability to turn it on and off. It always was on. What Linden lab has done was to add a little checkbox that simply tells the map “don’t show this location) – even though your viewer already knows it’s there.
So, for those who complain about this feature (”flaw”) being an issue with poor software design… fair enough. But the ability to turn mapping OFF is really just a patch to hide what is there.
Think “Digital Liquid Paper”.
Agreed Ari, and I should have made the point that the very REASON this exists is because of the fact that at one point it was an “open” map. All Linden Lab did was turn off the DISPLAY of that location information as a default. It didn’t eliminate the information stream, just hid it.
I still stand, however, by my assertion that this is an example of how the initial intentions of code (even if supposedly divorced from policy) can later have an impact on the ability to enforce or deploy policy.
[...] View original post here: Second Life A World Away From Financial Chaos [...]
Wells Fargo bailed out from SL into Activeworlds in 05.
[...] laugh. This is an important one. Because to me, Second Life is a Story Box. As a site for creativity virtual worlds are being built prim by prim in, perhaps, the largest [...]
[...] is a return to the world of dreaming. To those worlds we used to enter, when we were kids, and the lights were low, or we were reading [...]
[...] Virtual Worlds: Top Five Books Cover Second Life, Avatars, and Cash [...]
[...] to Dusan Writer, the Instant Messaging portion of the Second Life grid network protocols contains location information about every avatar who sends an IM to you. It’s been known for some time that the fields designed to encapsulate that information were [...]
Second Life: You Can be Mapped by Anyone at Anytime?…
Article LinkThose of you who were registered in Second Life prior to 2007 may remember a feature where anyone on your Friends List could map you without your consent. It was later resolved by allowing you to toggle mapping capabilities for those on yo…
Do remember (in case you have forgotten) that Tom Boellstorff (author of Coming of Age) is (in fact) a professor (in RL) and one who does not (I think) talk in parentheses (much).
Not unlike myself lo these many years… (lol)
Nice selection of books! Agreed re: Castronova. See ya at Metanomics.
–Chimera
Hahaha…..I didn’t mean to imply that all professors speak with parentheses, just this PARTICULAR friend. I adore professors, which is why he’s my friend I suppose.
And yeah, Tom is a professor. But mind you, he’s also one in California and I wonder if that has some kind of cancel-out effect?
A wonderful read, Dusan. I’ve tried, rather feebly, a few times to explain to friends who have never heard of Second Life why it is attractive to me.
When it is very good, people can show me what is inside their minds. And I can be part of what is in their minds. And when it is very good, I do not wonder about the explanation of how something was accomplished but enter the story that is being told.
I see the repeated theme of the campfire circle in Second Life and am reminded that Second Life is one more method of storytelling.
The collapse of the SL(R) virtual environment as a result of the recent hiccup in the world financial market (what, it was more than a hiccup?) is unlikely to be imminent. In fact, as people spend less time going out in Real Life, perhaps we’ll see a “surge” in Second Life(TM) activity!
The MBC and SLNN big screen TV’s that I have in my SL house were free, and I can upgrade to even bigger ones for the same price. And the free streaming internet radio I have is less expensive than my real life XM subscription. So I’m thinking of living in SL and logging on to RL just at weekends.
“…but what am I supposed to DO here?” says the Noob.
Both Dusan and Corcosman make excellent and apposite points when talking about the notion of Second Life as storytelling. Some folks enter this virtual world to be told a story, when the truth is that you are here to write our own.
You can’t have a passive Second Life experience; you have to mold it. In the grand tradition of the Absurdists, SL has no point, no meaning, and can be full of absurdity and folly. But therein lies the nature of the beast.
Umberto Eco talks about the concept of “The Open Text” and Second Life seems to me to be a wonderful example of this, where SL residents are effectively “readers” of the evolving book. The virtual world is literally full of stories, including the “Gorean Redux,” “Vampire Tales,” “Mafia Life,” “Media Moguls,” “Pirate Kings and Queens,” and many, many more.
If there is one thing that needs to be encouraged and allowed to grow, it is creativity. That’s what will sustain Second Life as a viable system and attempts to restrict or suppress it will only serve to make the experience all the poorer.
[...] narrative’ for Second Life has changed from a year or so ago. It’s not a surprise. Mitch Kapor warned us that the frontier days were over and all the early creators and residents should suck it up and [...]
[...] Dusan Writer asks what about Joe? The “simple” creator, who actually made Second Life, who is not especially demanding a [...]
“And I still return to it, after all these months, when I’m tired of thinking about business collaboration and Showcase and how the UI might be improved for the new user or whatever other muck, because this is why I stayed in the first place…”
You and me both, Dusan. Amen.
Funny as it may sound, I’m not sure this would be right video to watch Dusan. Don’t get me wrong, I love this video, and when talking about ‘experience’ this is one of my favorite examples to show what new media can do here.
However, I’m not entirely sure what the contribution of virtual worlds is to the video. I think it really is the combination of sight, sound and motion/animation (and the narrative of the song) that make the video as breathtaking as it is. The image is perfectly ‘framed’ (not in the litteral sense, but figuratively). The author gets to show his passion, his world-view exactly the way he wants it, something which is a lot, a lot harder to do in the free virtual environment. If anything, the video sells video…
Of course SL provided the tools, maybe even the desire to share his passion in the way that he did but On 3D contest forums there are quite a number of user generated (solo projects) an equally breathtaking vids like this, build in traditional 3D tools. All in all I think there is a good reason Dingo did not preserve the sim (the scenery – the virtual world part) as a whole: I’m sure it would communicate the experience that intense.
Admittedly however, watching the actual avatar build it all (as opposed to filming tools at work in 3D max) adds an extra endearing level to the video, but that’s a rather marginal contribution is it not?
*** I’m sure it would NOT communicate the experience that intense.
What LL tried to do is quite regular way of developing VW business. First you start the basic infrastructure and gather enthusiasts to test it and to start developing content. Then more people come and you introduce economy. The next caste comes soon, small entrepreneurs, those future barons and “million dollars from the basement” crew. Then you have population flood, usually induced by media attention. Then you bring the big business to inject a lot of money that will sustain all the enthusiasts, entrepreneurs, general public… and the company itself. There is nothing wrong with that.
Except if you plan to sacrifice everybody for the sake of having biz people. Which would be utterly stupid move. Because that kid is still making better cars than car companies are. And because it’s Joe who can find his way on the grid. And it’s all those almost naked residents that make lindens blushing that are dominant population of the metaverse and the main audience of whatever biz comes.
I am not sure if Lindens are trying to get rid of the early (and not so early) residents and to sacrifice us all for having a nice clean biz grid. maybe they are just doing something wrong. Planning of economy and market wasn’t their stronger side, we already know that. But I’ll be sad to see that it’s not the old residents who are forgiving their mistakes, while cruel business world doesn’t.
[...] Second Life viral game http://dusanwriter.com/?p=985 [...]
[...] Dusan’s Theory of Trackability The Lost Continent of Nautilus The Great Tech Debate by Podnutz – Crooked Things Straight – Kensington Prairie Little Mos Eisley – I Cant See You Anymore – Adam and the Walter Boys Little Heaven Bewitched Yxes’ Mission Complete? SL on an Acer Aspire One [...]
[...] Dusan’s Theory of Trackability The Lost Continent of Nautilus The Great Tech Debate by Podnutz – Crooked Things Straight – Kensington Prairie Little Mos Eisley – I Cant See You Anymore – Adam and the Walter Boys Little Heaven Bewitched Yxes’ Mission Complete? SL on an Acer Aspire One [...]
Outstanding list, especially your tag for Castronova’s second book!
I’d add Benjamin Duranske’s Virtual Law to the top of my recommendations. It’s published by the American Bar Association, but it’s tremendously readable, and an absolutely oustanding, comprehensive overview of the legal issues affecting virtual worlds.
For a business person, a cultural theorist, an activist, or anyone concerned with the intersection of the atomic and the digital, Ben’s book is utterly useful.
Ben’s also got an extraordinary knack for explanation without simplification – a digital Carl Sagan in the making.
After returning today from Virtual Worlds London, its good to read a post like this.
Whilst there were lots of great panels at the event, they tended to focus squarely on business and collaborative use of virtual worlds, monetisation strategies, technical scalability and legal issues.
I remember one moment in the break out sessions, in discussion with Jon Himoff and Vint Falken, where I tried to articulate the way I feel about all this, which is similar to this post.
The most amazing thing that has happened in virtual worlds over the last 10 years ( I’d actually go as far as to say ever since its official 70s beginnings ) is Second Life. It’s not even the creation of the world thats important. Lindenworld was a strange and very humble quasi-game. Whilst LL have created a social and economic framework, the evolution of this into SL, is something residents have achieved. Within the petri dish of Second Life’s controlled economy and IP ownership framework, a fascinatingly beautiful intricate social structure has emerged, laced with numerous examples of creativity in all its forms that could only have happened in those controlled ‘lab’ conditions.
At the conference, it felt like the lid is being taken off the petri-dish, exposing its contents to uncontrolled conditions. From the melee over standards in the quest for opensource expansion ( which really ignited in one panel ) to the vast omnipresent overshadowing desire for ‘the enterprise solution’ – those moments of wonder like Robbie’s watch the world are indeed being swamped.
However, such is my belief in those moments, and what’s happened amongst the residents over the last 5 years, that I have no doubt it will quietly continue being wonderful and transformative for peoples lives. Whenever I doubt this, I simply open up the SL5B Message in a Bottle project folder in my inventory, and listen to the hundreds of messages people sent in expressing what SL means to them. Thats the stuff that has really created the narrative of virtual worlds, and always will.
All good, but it’s even more fundamental than that.
The best advertisement for any business is a happy customer. One happy customer gets you 3 more who, in turn, get you 7 more and so on and on.
If Linden Lab’s had sat down one day and devised methods to piss-off and alienate their existing core customers (remember them, the ones who built SL into something worthwhile in the first place?) then they could hardly have done better than they have.
Immersive Workplaces – which I’ll happily re-christen ‘Submersive Workspaces’ as they sink without trace – are a perfect example. A huge misstep – get into bed with one of your past critics and ignore your existing customers – and do it at a time of economic crisis when your target market really has better things to do than listen to you.
They really need to get a clue…and fast.
Comparing freebies in Second Life to the emergence of lower priced items in the real world has one point of important overlap – a place to put your things in the world. Yes, you can have a bazillion items in your Second life inventory, but you can only rez as many as you can afford. In the real world that fridge might cost you a dollar, but I bet it will cost you two dollars to recycle the old one.
[...] ~flirt~ Jewelry Expo Aqua Gift Edition – not worth 1 L$? Gwyneth Llewelyn :: The Hard Facts About the Second Life® Economy GREENE concept :: The dynamics of Dollarbies – advice for content creators Prad Prathivi :: I can haz freebiez Teagan Blackthorne :: Pay It Forward Dusan Writer :: Virtual Worlds and the Trend Towards Free: Second Life and the Object Economy [...]
It was interesting how this was billed as murder but it was really improper account access. However, the reaction to the virtual divorce is the what is most intriguing.
Another recent news item is kids getting arrested in The Netherlands for “virtual theft”
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iT7F2Dwn5tbgz4hmX98Ft0DX7pKAD93V2C380
Sl is trashed economy wise, the only one making money is Linden. Take a look at Anshe Chung her land for example, it’s over 50% yellow, there is to much land, to much objects, to many bots, to many freeloaders. Linden can’t expand anymore, mainland is at 2.2 Linden per metre and they release some garbage looking land hoping to rake in 300 USD for a 1024 metres parcel again.
At the moment Linden is making money and collecting tier with void sims, each week over 100 of those get sold but it’s starting to slow down and plenty of these are getting dumped. What is funny is that even with the release of all those void sims Linden isn’t growing at a spectacular higher ratio compared to the past when most sims were bought by estate owners and in world commerces. This gigantic shift really didn’t turn Linden into a huge profit making company. Why do you think they are promoting SL for businesses so hard these days? It’s about the only market segment they can exploit to sell more land. They don’t make efforts towards the regular users who made SL to what it is today.
Items became way to cheap in SL, for many people they are just game goods they can buy for play money 50 Linden for hair, 100 Linden for a dress, for a real dollar you spend hours of shopping, consume a GB of bandwidth and don’t bring any form of stimulation for the economy.
Second Life Military can be as disorganized as a bunch of kids on the street or as organized as an actual military unit. Sometimes personnel -are- former military.
The point is that Second Life is already a platform for such thought. It has politics, technological races, and requires that groups think outside the box to survive boredom and constant bombardment. I command a group of 130+ personnel in said game.
I fully agree ..without resident creation ability this project will die sooner as it is released. Audience mode lol …pretty well said. I also had the chance to preview the world ..and must say very good graphics. But the wish to drag people with the graphic argument isnt the way as SL shows everyday. For younger gamers the world isnt attractive due to PS3 and for ppl how wanna socialize the graphics arent the important deal. They wanna create easily, sell a bit and meet friends. To think people will reduce themselves to watching and shopping is the wrong way. People want to PLAY ..thats the most important word. And the professional artists will leave soon as they dont sell their products as their are no customers. Think again Henk!
A couple of thoughts…I actually notice a qualitative difference between products, so like in the real world, I might pay more for something I value more. In SL that’s primarily aesthetics but increasingly it’s design. I just bought sunglasses with a well designed HUD for adjusting them in a myriad of ways.
I agree content creators should be paid for their labor, and better goods can command higher prices, in principle.
I’m one of those people that will pay for a better widget, but I know residents who’d rather make it themselves, in part cause they don’t wanna pay for it, in part cause they (think) they can make it.
I think there’s a lot to improve in SL and therefore a lot to innovate still.
[...] public links >> winner Congratulations: UI Contest Winners Saved by bebond20 on Sun 26-10-2008 Winner of Free Domain Name August 2008 Saved by [...]
Privacy (not) in Second Life…
In a post about a week ago, Dusan Writer talked about code in the SL viewer that can be used to track any avatar in SL, any time. This was a "feature" of the SL map until late 2006, when it was turned off, but the underlying code is still the…
Moodle Tutorials…
Keep an eye on Martin Langhoffs presentations! – Moodle Networking, which allows you to“ network” a group of Moodle sites for SSO and other interesting things.. He is also presenting a session on the“ One Laptop per Child” program- check out his sessio…
[...] the Frontier, But It’s Still a Frontier With Second Life as an example, Mitch Kapor famously proclaimed that the frontier age is over. This implies that the early frontiers people have been proven right. [...]
How do people create so many detailed structures and characters on Second Life? Is there a Second Life graphics design agency out there that could help me create something? I’d like to see that!
I guess this would be good for people who are addicted to the internet.
@ Beau – LOL, uh huh.
@ Allan – there’s hundreds of talented content creators and a billion objects and builds. And the joy of SL is, it’s not so hard to create your own!
Having said that, if you have something specific e-mail me and I can send you in the right direction.
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » Online Therapy Institute opens in Second Life (tags: onlinetherapyinstitute mentalhealth secondlife healthcare) [...]
[...] Original post: Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » Virtual Worlds: Top Five Books Cover … [...]
Second Life & Social Change – Trackback…
Ha ha. I like your revision to my SL formation imaginings (I write as I sip Kombucha Green Tea Decaf by the Yogi Tea company). Had a good laugh reading your post. Yes, that’s exactly what I meant in terms of the potential of 3D space – Photosynth is a…
Dusan, you big cheater!
We’d like to read YOUR impressions of SL Fashion please, not our own…
@ Eris – um. I didn’t see any um rules about this. HAHAHA. And yeah, you caught me out. But really….regardless I’m bound to take whatever input I get and come out with something insanely convoluted and about 10 times longer than it needs to be.
So…are skins and prim hair part of “fashion”?
[...] was the end of the “frontier” that Mitch Kapor famously proclaimed. But it’s not just that Second Life will be overrun by business types. It’s that [...]
“Because the ‘except’ is that decisions ARE being made now with an eye on two balls”
That would sum up my main concern with this. Its not that pushing enterprise use will hurt the grid, but it certainly looks to me like LL has had its eye primarily on that ball for the last year, and is letting the other one drop.
Call me regressive, but I’d like to see a focus on Second Life as an entertainment platform.
[...] Dusan Writer on the immersive spaces, and concludes that except for the lousy timing there is no direct connection with the open spaces price increase. Of course, LL needs to choose directions: business, ‘commons’ or both? [...]
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » Immersive or Open Spaces: What Tier Are You In? sent a pingback on November 4, 2008 [...]
Dusan–not sure this really makes sense. Why choose Linden Lab as a platform supplier for a private grid?
Actually you can do a lot better with other options. Or just wait it out until the Sun Wonderland offering is being hosted.
As an enterprise buyer of a private grid solution you would need to look at–
* Service level agreement — Linden offers nothing
* Invoicing — Linden offers nothing
* Customer support — I assume RRR would provide this, but how much and is it 24/7?
* Security — maybe a “private” grid but is it a private asset server? Who can cam into the sims? What about encryption?
* References — is anyone other than Linden and RRR using this offering and is satisfied?
Looks like more of the same hype and vaporware that got SL onto the cover of Newsweek (twice). I hope at least enterprise buyers are more experienced in purchasing mission critical software solutions and won’t be herded to slaughter like the brand customers were.
[...] Big Spaceship do have some form in the sphere, having played a pivotal role with 30 Days of Night immersive game. There’s no firm timeframes for when we’ll see the improvements. Like any user interface changes, the challenge will be the get a balance between simplicity for new users and the more complex needs of longer term Second Life residents. Hopefully they’ve already had a browse of some great innovations already created by Second Life residents. [...]
RaR: Good points. What I’d say is the following: business is not purchasing a Grid or participating in a world, they’re purchasing a solution package with a narrow focus. Whether this is the best long-term strategy for getting business to adopt and then guide them along the value curve is to be proven.
Regarding your questions, I’d have to absolutely confirm, but I’m under the following impression:
- The service level agreement is different from the main Grid
- Invoicing is not by Linden Lab
- Customer support is on a per contract basis, but I’m under the impression that RRR offers business hours support which, well, is when their customers are doing business. I think it’s a good question for RRR – does Linden Lab pick up “support spillover”.
- I’m not sure about the asset server. But these sims run separate from the main grid – they don’t show up in search or on the map, the avatar and inventory is not connected to the main grid, etc. They are NOT part of SL. So, for security, my impression is, and based on what Zha said, you can’t cam to them, you can’t find them, you can’t even communicate with the avatars. (And the avatars can’t come to mainland either).
If I had to describe it, I’d hypothesize that the Immersive Workspaces are a completely separate ‘rack’, or perhaps even hosted client-side in some cases (or could be). They are stand-alone boxes, protected by a firewall, and not connected to any of the SL that you and I might know.
- References available on request LOL
Justin commented on the brands and their “experiments” in SL. I’ll post the full interview later today and let his words speak for themselves.
Dusan wrote: But these sims run separate from the main grid – they don’t show up in search or on the map, the avatar and inventory is not connected to the main grid, etc. They are NOT part of SL. So, for security, my impression is, and based on what Zha said, you can’t cam to them, you can’t find them, you can’t even communicate with the avatars. (And the avatars can’t come to mainland either).
===
Absolutely correct on all points Dusan, at least from my experience – which is with a separate “estate” completely off the LL grid on a private server (not RRR project or IBM for that matter).
This will allow my organization (a non profit) to run a business without naked newcomers, without griefing, without neighbors setting up nextdoor with sights we aren’t interested in seeing. More importantly, without rolling restarts, without four hour shutdowns, without arbitrary changes that devalue my property or cause my costs to rise.
I have nine sims under development for less that the cost of a single LL island. Assets in SL proper can be transferred over only selectively, but the terraforming and building functions are the same as in SL proper, so most anything that you want to have can be built if you have some basic skills.
We encourage our clientele and staff to use the Main Grid, and believe that immersive experience in SL will add to the “reality” of the usage on our GIaB (Grid in a Box), but when its time for staff meetings, or delivering client services, it is great to know we can do it in a much more controlled and stable environment.
I think there is plenty of room for both types of platforms, and if LL really hopes to monetize the Immersive Workspaces project, they should know that their clientele may often start as “ordinary” citizens of Second Life (I sure did!). Neglecting the original will surely strangle an important pipeline to this new level of participation!
[...] my previous post, I talked about the fact that Immersive Workspaces are separate from the Second Life [...]
I might not fully understand how this works, but it sure seems like a crippling blow to all of the other ‘Solution Providers’ who have been pining for this feature from Linden Lab for years – toiling away on the “consumer platform” Justin refers to. Linden Lab finally offers a solution we’ve all waited so patiently for, but then they funnel every ounce of the new business through a single developer? Am I missing something?
He says, “We hardly have anything actually left on the main grid,” …. Must be nice! Does anyone else have it like that? Maybe I’m the only one still left on the regular grid?
He goes on to say “But I still get a kick out of Second Life.”
and later says “…to be honest with you, that’s how I started.” … referring, once again, to the regular Second Life grid.
At least he has roots in the regular grid the rest of us are stuck using… to be fair, I guess I still get a kick out of Second Life too.
As regular developers, architects, artists, scripters, etc. working in Second Life, we operate under the faith that, even though Second Life has its bugs and challenges, we trust that Linden Lab will continue working on building a transparent, stable and secure platform upon which the community of resident evangelists, entrepreneurs, and developers can build and innovate. At least that’s the dream that keeps me coming back; the promise that we’re all empowered and privileged to be working on a relatively even playing field. But now there’s a special grid for Rivers Run Red enterprise clients, and the regular grid the rest of us use. Maybe I’m wrong. I hope so.
Moreover, it reads as though this special grid, with their enterprise clients, he says, “…can be separate from you and they don’t have to mix. But it doesn’t challenge you.”
Really? That kind of makes me sick, honestly. The power of Second Life is in that very mix you seek to inhibit, imho. Time will tell. There are lessons learned about this from real life we can draw upon if we want to dig deeper.
We all know there are companies, large and small, circling around Second Life, watching, learning, reading, attending in-world presentations and expos, talking to residents, learning the ropes. It is also no secret that business collaboration is among the lowest hanging fruits for the developer community. Yet these circling companies remain understandably cautious, awaiting the same fixes and solutions the rest of the developer community awaits. Clearly this is one of the biggest reasons OpenSim is so attractive. If it can become stable anytime soon, there are many who predict a mass exodus, simply because it can be hosted secure, and private.
But then there are the die-hard residents who stick to Second Life, myself included. We’re the hundreds-strong bullpen of solution providers who continue pitching and evangelizing Second Life at every turn because we believe it is the future of the web. A place, not an application (it took me a while to truly understand that distinction). We keep spending more time, more money, more energy, believing that the next big thing is yet to come, and when it arrives, we want to be ready.
Then one day, one of the ‘next big things’ arrives. The holy grail of business collaboration and enterprise applications is here! Linden Lab unveils a safe, secure application that could be hosted behind corporate firewalls. Maybe now I can dust off this pile of business cards and contacts I’ve collected over the years, and tell them they can finally have that private and secure Second Life application hosted behind their firewalls they’ve been asking about. Imagine the architecture and design they’ll need to support their new virtual headquarters! =) I can hardly wait. All of that patience and faith has finally paid off, because the next generation of virtual workplace has finally arrived.
But wait a minute… only one company gets to offer it? Or, I have to go through this other content creator to bring it to my clients? At extraordinary expense, I would assume… So much for an even playing field. As such, every bit of circling new-biz out there clamoring for a solution like this will be funneled to just one developer? Is that innovation?
If they offer a special grid, why can’t we all build our own special grids? If they’re only offering ’solutions’ then why can’t they duke it out with every other developer working on offering solutions without official endorsement from Linden Lab?
I still have faith in Second Life. But my faith is gradually (necessarily, and unfortunately) shifting from Linden Lab to the Second Life community itself – the former of which I now fully realize is only a bi-product of the latter. Nothing I read here is new, or innovative – though I snarkily trust that when business collaboration goes mainstream, we will be reminded that Justin came up with the whole concept ‘back in ‘08′ when nobody else was aware of it. lol! From what I can tell, they just get special privileges that nobody else has access to without big bucks. That’s all.
If you’re in an organization considering a move into virtual worlds, look to the Second Life community itself… the tinkerers and countless residents and solution providers out there brainstorming the next big thing. Because that’s where the next big thing will come from. That’s where it already is… It is so much more than a place for meetings, and the cross-disciplinary innovation you’ll discover in serendipitous encounters with some of the highest caliber individuals you’ll ever meet (who hang out on the regular grid…at least for now…) will trump a boring corporate grid any day. Even if they switch to plain clothes after work and eventually teleport back and forth…pfft! C’mon…
If Second Life has taught us anything in these past few years, its that rarely does anything great – in a user-generated environment – come from the top down. The future of Second Life will be generated from the bottom up. I sincerely believe that, and that’s where I hang my virtual cowboy hat. Alas, Second Life is still an undiscovered frontier.
Please correct me where I’m wrong.
Keystone:
There are a few things that strike me, I suppose, about both Immersive Workspaces and more generally Linden Lab’s approach to “product development”. And let me get a little pitch in here because some of this will be covered at Metanomics tomorrow.
But first, I should clarify the “separate grid” and firewall piece and make absolutely clear that my understanding of this comes from a) reading between the lines of the interview and b) comments by Zha Ewry (quoted above) at an Orange Island session this past week.
When I asked Justin specifically about whether Immersive Workspaces sims were “deployed differently” his response was as follows:
“I can tell you that we are very much on a level playing field with anyone else who’s out there in terms of developing things. You obviously know that we are part of the bigger picture, as you know. I think the thing is, is that what the difference is, is we developed our own API to allow us to have a much more seamless way of integrating Web and the 3D specs together. Beyond that, I can’t really go into it because it would be giving away too much of the secrets of what we’re doing to really differentiate us.
But you know obviously you know, you can look at what’s happening, you know what’s happening with Second Life without me having to say anything to you. Mark obviously spoke about it at the Virtual Worlds conference but really that needs to come from Linden to talk to you.”
And really, it’s the last words that hit the heart of the matter. Because our ability as content developers, solution providers, or consultants rests on making plans, placing bets, and investing resources in our understanding of the current market, trends, and future developments. And frankly I’m tired of trying to read the Wikis and forums and attending office hours where not much is really said but a lot is implied.
Why is it that I feel like I always have to try to GUESS where the Lab is going? If, as they say, they are not in the content business, and the Grid needs content, and we’re content developers – why does it feel like you need to be a Kremlinologist to try to understand what’s next for Second Life and the Grid so that I can actually coordinate my investments with my strategic plan (something that looks out beyond the next month or the next viewer deploy) with the efforts of the Lab?
Can’t they publish a fricking newsletter, an update, keep “The Grid” Web site up-to-date, hold solution-oriented information sessions, or ANSWER MY E-MAILS???????????
My second comment is related to the broader idea of the benefits of virtual worlds for business. And frankly I think RRR has it right if you think of it as an adoption path for businesses: the primary investment they’ve made is on the Web side. The “build” doesn’t have anything particularly special about it: it uses PowerPoint feeds, calendars, a bit of data visualization, etc….all things that we’ve seen before, which isn’t to say there isn’t more hidden behind the firewall when they do custom deploys for clients.
So their strategy seems to be build a step-by-step adoption curve: convince customers on ROI, use it for meetings, add a bit of data visualization, and maybe some day you can get people to rez prims and participate in richer experiences.
But what is missing from this model, in my opinion, is the ability for companies to leverage the existing talents and communities of the Main Grid. It isn’t to say that they won’t, but there are problems if you have to create a second account, log in as a different avatar.
As I understood IBM’s approach to the firewall, the content stayed behind the firewall but the avatars were free to leave. Whether RRR also allows this is unclear – maybe you have a choice of installation.
You said it best:
“It is so much more than a place for meetings, and the cross-disciplinary innovation you’ll discover in serendipitous encounters with some of the highest caliber individuals you’ll ever meet (who hang out on the regular grid…at least for now…) will trump a boring corporate grid any day.”
[...] Writer promised us an extended interview regarding Immersive Workspaces with Justin Bovington, CEO of Rivers Run [...]
[...] miss out on, yeah, the sex, but also on all the good things Second Life has to offer. So go read, including the [...]
So, they’re “very much on a level playing field” with other developers,” but they enjoy an exclusive relationship with Linden Lab, and “hardly have anything actually left on the main grid.” That doesn’t add up.
I think its important to remember that this isn’t about their business strategy, or bringing companies into Second Life, or trade secrets, or adoption-rate issues, or ROI challenges, etc. This is about a special, exclusive business partnership, and special privileges nobody else has access to. It feels like they get to play the game out of bounds, and I don’t think its fair.
A company like Rivers Run Red, who ‘knew it all along’ is strong enough to deliver innovation without leaning on Linden Lab (or is it the other way around?). No matter how you look at it, every single client they gain through this special arrangement is one less available for the pool of solution providers at work on the regular grid – where clients are hard earned. In the meantime, Rivers Run Red enjoys more work than they know what to do with.
when asked again, why didnt web3d for enterprise business catch on in 1996, 1999, 2001, and in 2003–lol when RRR “invented it”.. I consistantly turn to the answer that until the “tech/vc/funded” companies break away from the “we will be the tools/service/content “google/MS like kings” of something” that drives them all and prevents any multilayer industry to be formed,we will always see this bubble effect occuring over and over.
keystone asks for an “Industry”, but didnt we have this conversation over 3 years ago over pizza.”Industries” require multiple players in multiple positions offering multiple solutions- all being rewarded in some sort of fair method.
The current “VR tech conference sponsors;)” only ask for businesses for themselves and this, like Yoda says, Is why they will fail.;)
Before 2003 btw- i can name a half dozen companies, some much more well funded than LL or RRR that failed to make Web3d for Corporate Inhouse use work…and it had so little to do with the technology offered.
Linden Labs operates the same as it has since day one.It’s named “laboratories, not “industries” btw– for those not listening closely.;)
anyhow.;)
c3
Question:
Since assets built within the SL grid are sold for “peanuts” -lindens- in a corporate sence financially…Chairs, Desks, Clothes, animations..and all fall prey to the “uncertain” LL TOS and IP ownership conumdrum of “usage by users of the service”
How what/will/is LL and RRR solution to the “transfer” of IP from the main grid to the Immersive Workspace(Tm) running on second grid technology.
We all understood the “issues” of “placing IP” on the LL grid known as Second Life for it’s users….but technologies exist to remove content from the SL “3 cent to a dollar” grid, and “place it unknowingly” to the “one dollar equals one dollar grid” for commercial usage by corporations doing dollar/ for dollar business.?
lets think a little ahead.;) this is something sure to bite the “laboratory” back on the butt very soon unless proper and ethical not to mention legal solutions are put in place. Lets chat about permissions, licenses, and seperate- private- grids- shall we?
or is that secret too?.;)
best
LR
Discussion of Immersive Workspaces and Interview with Rivers Run Red…
Dusan Writer has published a lengthy and informative piece on the emergence of business collaboration as VW application showing real ……
All looks nice enuff, but seems very flakey on details. I really struggle to imagine how a serious enterprise could use SL for mission critical business collaboration. I think this is also too pricey for SME’s. So really I am very curious to see if anyone is going to sign-up for this.
My feeling is that the stiff avatars actually make a business meeting seem these professional. And really this is more useful to people that are working inside SL to begin with–and there isn’t anyone doing that right now.
Nonetheless, Justin has a good view on the future–and I think ultimately he is right. But I don’t think SL will be the supplier of choice no matter how it is packaged. Look at Sun Wonderland, look at IBM, look at Catia and PLM, look at Cisco for serious collaboration and simulation services.
“…that Second Life and other virtual worlds can never fully replace in-class learning…”
I can’t agree with that. Of course, the current “state of the art” is not efficient enough to replace physical sessions as it is but we have to re-shape training sessions to adapt to the unique qualities of metavers. It’s just a question of time, even to be able to use Body Language in training role plays.
[...] Findings Published about Virtual Learning in Second Life November 10, 2008 at 3:40 pm | In Second Life | via Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » Findings Published about Virtual Learning in Second Life [...]
righasrain, I agree. The details are flaky, and the value proposition is questionable. But I’m more confident about Second Life as a platform for business collaboration.
I think most of it is off the big-dollar developer radar, because its happening organically. It is built upon user generated content, from the bottom-up, not top-down – just like the rest of the community. These are skunk works projects, initiated by a few renegade internal evangelists who (often at their own expense) gradually prove to their colleagues that they can be more efficient, or effective using Second Life as a collaboration tool. Organizations are wise to crystallize around the way their employees, students or customers are already using Second Life – rather than trying to hand it down to them.
Tethered to this platform, we’re all sharing the risk when they tie us all to a single “best of breed winner” (in their own words) that could ultimately fail, like so many have before them. We share the risk, but will we really see any benefit if it succeeds, when all of the work is being given to a single content creator?
Hello,
Having read your comments, I wanted to address a few issues that I feel need a direct answer.
The gentleman from IBM, doesn’t have any insight into RRR, our plans or products. He is purely speculating, we’re actually at a loss to know why he felt he could offer insight into our company? He has no connection to Immersive Workspaces, we as a company, have no professional relationship with IBM.
The firewall issue: We’re under an NDA, both in terms of our dealings with our clients, also our partnership with Linden Lab. We cannot directly talk about road maps, development plans or what other companies are working on. We can only talk about what has been announced.
We’re not telling people to ‘not hang out’ in Second Life. We are though saying, a lot of corporates could have an issue, so we’ve also developed various ways to set up the experience. This still could include being part and parcel of the main grid, or not, as the case maybe. There does though, need to be a solution for Enterprise who are looking for full privacy, Immersive Workspaces offers them that option. This is especially true for the financial sector and Enterprise who need to keep business secured.
Immersive Workspaces is built on the Second Life Grid, the vast majority of our clients, have a mixture of both semi-private and private sims. Immersive Workspaces has been in the market since April 08, with clients ranging from the financial sector, research, technology and consumer brands. We started developing our Immersive Spaces solutions in August 2007. In October, we launched Version 2.0, coupled with the reported strategic agreement between RRR and LL. [press release: http://riversrunred.com/news/ ]
Also, both RRR and LL are keen for solution providers to become affiliates for Immersive Workspaces, plus the products we’re developing. Linden Lab will be hosting events for Solution Providers, this will be an opportunity for you to get involved and ask questions about Immersive Workspaces. Our products will not be sold via a single developer, it will be available to companies who have the capabilities to support clients in the Enterprise sector.
In the meantime, I’m always happy to answer your questions directly: justin@riversrunred.com avatar: justin riversrunred (or Fizik Baskerville)
best
Justin
lol, wow.
I rest my case.
@ Justin–stills sounds quite vague. It would be very interesting to have more details about how the public/private grid solution actually works. I am very sceptical that there is in fact a secure enterprise solution that is still part of the SL grid.
I appreciate that you have NDAs, but sure seems like a new product needs some kind of technical info to be credible.
Mark Kingdon said that details would be forthcoming when LL announces their “behind the firewall” solution for Q1 2009. I suppose that might also compete with immersive workspaces??
I think the IBM FRI type solution could work, but then what is the benefit for the association with LL?
Usually happy customers are willing to give references and be used in case studies.
Immersive Workspaces is part of Linden Lab, they have an exclusive license for our products and services. They can adopt and use it for any purposes, Grid or any future Firewall releases.
References on request, as I mentioned before, if you have any questions please feel free to contact me.
Rightasrain, please feel free to contact me. I can talk you through your questions, giving answer to security and the roll out plans.
Thanks
It’s curious to see new advances and new academic institutions popping up in virtual environments… I do personally agree though that in some instances, 3D environments won’t ever be able to fully replace physical learning.
[...] and Strange Loops One of the strange and disconcerting powers of virtual worlds is what I call the strange loop, the odd interplay between the real and the virtual, each embedded in the other, like [...]
[...] have the time to figure out how to update my card. I’ve recently covered the possibilities of “richly rendered” 3D spaces, have looked at the OTOY engine, and have been wowed by Blue Mars (although disappointed with their [...]
Here is a translated version: http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fdusanwriter.com%2Findex.php%2F2008%2F11%2F12%2Fgetting-extra-rays-picturing-second-life-20%2F&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=de&tl=en
Towards the end there it sounds like they are talking about inDuality!
Mystery video indeed. I wish I could get that much attention just for taking some architecture design firm’s demo reel and slapping the words “Second Life 2.0″ on top of it in Windows Movie Maker.
Hahaha yeah TRULY Jacek! Really, we should just post old episodes of Leave it to Beaver, tag them Second Life, open space, and cash in on the traffic. Key is to put it in a foreign language I suppose.
Mind you, I spend my evenings watching architectural design reels looking for nice renders so this was a treat.
It basically says that the next SL comes as a plugin for browser utilizing the latest graphics standards. But I’d say this video looks a bit PS3 and Sony Home to me – and maybe it is?
Auwch. That must have sucked! Got – extremely – bad ‘personal’ news by email once (because I lost my phone a few days earlier, and the friends did not have the new number and wanted to make sure I got it), and it’s a ’sit behind PC and think they are making a joke’ kind of moment. Until you grab for the phone or some other kind of ‘old skool’ communication tool for confirmation.. .
yeah, surprised Phil didn’t just ban him from the Lindenworld estate. Email is so unreliable these days.
@rightasrain – And the Lindenworld estate isn’t unreliable?
I have been quite impressed by the Obama campaign’s use of technology for coordination, outreach, advertising, etc.
It’s quite an achievement for a presidential campaign to use technology so effectively yet so apparently effortlessly, and had Cory been involved it seems likely that it would have been more than impressive: It would have been amazing.
hmmm
Hahaha hmmm what Bettina? This is actually a really stunning re-work of the server architecture over on Eve. I’m not a techy but the techy folks I know are drooling over this, and I’d call it a significant thing. So, the question of course is – sheesh, why not HERE.
The folks at Linden Lab could learn a lot about running a virtual world from the people at Eve online.
So, Linden Lab now talking about corporate firewalls instead of that great community they enabled, isn’t that also… change?
We prepare a publically accessible statistic system that shows the current demographic trends in Second Life and all the other OpenSimulator grids by life data aqusition.
The service will be available soon and uses real grid information. We expect it to show a trend comparable to the above grahics as outcome.
Greetings from the real world,
Kai Ludwig
Director
TalentRaspel virtual worlds Ltd.
http://www.talentraspel.de
I may be too much of a cynic, but this rhetoric reads to me as very close to ‘Let them eat tofu.’ Rhetoric has context, it is uttered in a place and time and for a reason.
The outgoing president of a certain large republic in North America has a famous habit of setting up an outrageous proposition, assigning it to his opponents, and then attacking that proposition despite its considerable variance from what his opponents were actually advocating.
Who argues against the right to innovate? No-one. What does the right to innovate mean? Making new stuff that works? When did the enterprise Philip Rosedale chairs last do that? But if the speech is actually about the right to cause land panics it makes considerably more sense, and can be critiqued.
RightAsRain Rimbaud unpacks it better than I ever could:
I like floaty as much as the next guy, but LL’s chair and LL’s CEO need to get way past floaty real soon now.
[...] also Dusan Writer about Rosedale’s BBC-column! Roland [...]
@ Alberik:
I don’t disagree. On the other hand, I’ve come to the reluctant conclusion that the further away Philip is from the actual “running of the Grid” the better. Let him fantasize about cell panels on roofs or whatever.
(By the way, on that topic, one of the issues with this type of thing is that the technology is often stolen and salvaged for parts. There is difficulty putting communication infrastructure in many places because phone wires are stolen, stripped, and sold as scrap. Why he thinks that solar panels on roofs won’t face the same challenge I have no idea).
Let Philip gaze off in the distance. He’s no longer part of Second Life, as far as I’m concerned. He talked about getting his hands into innovation again, such as the viewer, and then they outsourced it. We are seven days shy of it being one year since Philip last blogged – and at the time, he promised to blog monthly.
He’s living in his own reality. If that isn’t true, I’d love to hear what he’s doing, how it impacts the Grid, why we should care.
All of which places the onus on M.
You ever hear the 100 Days theory of the Presidency?
On the theory that you establish a tone, systems, focus, and deliver tangible results in your first 100 days in office. If you fail to do this, you’ve set a context for your subsequent work.
How do you think M did his first 100 days? He’s now at about 180 days “in office”. With Philip wandering off fantasizing about solar panels, it’s in his hands really.
[...] forgotten about this until this morning’s post on Philip’s infatuation with solar panels and other real life [...]
[...] forgotten about this until this morning’s post on Philip’s infatuation with solar panels and other real life [...]
Ah, Da Future. Smooth performance combined with a bit of freedom to create content.
Hurry up and get here, Future!!
apparently Eve is hosted and run by IBM
@Dusan
I have no idea about M because he says so little to the community that it is impossible to judge what he’s doing. He appears to have done nothing to improve the FOAD style of LL’s customer relations. There are no real signs of improvements to the UI. The land panic does not speak well of his engagement with the customer base. His promise to talk with customers on the SL forum followed by his total silence was incomprehensible.
Did he intend to honour the forum promise and then forget?
There’s been speculation on the forum that LL is under financial stress, perhaps because of the increase in the price of short term money, and this has forced the increase in the renamed Openspace price and the invention of the new Narrowspace sim. When a company behaves this incomprehensibly, and offers a rationale this vacuous, it is reasonable to assume they have reasons that they cannot admit publicly admit. Every day of M’s continuing silence contributes to that fear.
The spin round the quarterly stats do not encourage confidence either. The statement that premium membership does not matter because LL pays out in stipend what it makes in premium payments is simply weird. That statement could be true only if premium memberships were not paid in RL cash and the stipend paid in LL play money.
So, M’s performance could be judged as good, but really badly communicated. Or it could be judged that his performance as CEO is of a par with his performance as communicator. Time will tell.
So, what is the scale of the vertical axis on that graph, Dusan?
@Justin -
It’s something called search volume index. They’re a wee bit vague, but define it all here:
http://www.google.com/intl/en/trends/about.html#7
“Google Trends analyzes a portion of Google web searches to compute how many searches have been done for the terms you enter, relative to the total number of searches done on Google over time. We then show you a graph with the results – our Search Volume Index graph. “
How do you think M did his first 100 days?
(shakes head)
Is it still possible to call a mulligan and call up Grace McDunnough?
er…no one scream koolaid in not crowded lindenworld:
from the BBC excerpt in the word’s of the eraserheaded hero of the metaverse:
“What does the future of the internet look like? It looks like a world map where even the furthest corners of the planet are able to get online because of the decentralisation of power generation.
What technology is getting me excited right now? Electricity.”
[...] and semi (but not really) reversal by LL, some of the best blogs have turned into a waste of time. Dusan Writer’s is no exception, today’s hilarious post being a bait and switch post with the remark [...]
Justin,
Very brave move – whilst my fellow bankers read Information Week, and perhaps even the broadsheets on how sex, divorce, porn is still alive in Second Life – we sit here thinking, well ok chaps now for an *immersive* (and that word is hugely overused) meeting on our behind firewall version of……Second Life.
Educators are far down the road with offerings from Sun’s Wonderland, and Princeton sure will demo the IWS and more will buy your product.
However, Linden Lab is not a company I would strategically brand tie to UNLESS it’s a short-term approach. PItch the product in, garner market interest – sell signiciant volume. Close out and walk away.
Even developing the platform further with mobile / added on services – I still fail to see why this would compete with more cost effective already embedded technologies other than the hype of that short term approach mentioned.
Rivers, don’t have a strong reputation in the web technology market and certainly suffered damage from their developments in Second Life so I wonder if this is the last ditched attempt for this company to create a successful product.
I wish you well with it.
[...] Sounds like Second Life® by Princess Ivory [...]
Dusan, I hate this liberal guilt over Web 2.0 and new media tools and their crying because the third world doesn’t have them and they “shouldn’t push them on the third world”. Good Lord, even in the poorest African countries people have cell phones that are central even to their economy and move money around and people go 30 miles to use the Internet. They don’t berate the North or West because they don’t have these tools, they will get them, as they develop the rest of their societies. I don’t get the huge guilt trip over Web 2.0, when there wasn’t an equivalent over the original Internet itself. People just went about trying to put it in where they could. They didn’t sit around wringing their hands and saying “I won’t go on the Internet until everybody in the Third world has it, and I won’t shove it down their throats”. So its graphics and bandwidth intensive? That will change, and is already changing, and eventually it will either slim down itself or there will be slimmer variants.
As for Philip’s rantings, I remain somewhat unimpressed. I’m one of the digitally excluded. I can’t build to save my life in Second Life and I can’t Photoshop. Do I now get a grant from Philip? I mean, seriously, that’s whack. Again, as countries develop, they lay all this on, it comes in time, just like any other medium.
The “right to innovate” strikes me as a strange, and not legally grammatical locution. People have the right to free expression, or the right to receive and impart information across frontiers. That’s all. If you start talking about “the right” to innovate, you imply states have to grant this in some positive way by payouts, or you imply non-state actors like companies can take it away or something. It’s just plain weird.
Then this idea that these fresh thirdworld minds are going to come at problems in some special innovative way that will be feted just because it’s “the third world”. I mean, Jesus, people are people. Do you think there’s a special Third World way to look at the problem of people shitting in their water supply? or burning up their fossil fuels and polluting their air? Either you believe science is universal, or you don’t. It’s not like there is some special magical perception conferred on people in undeveloped countries that will now be forced upon us, and everbody else has to make way.
I find this sort of fanciful talk about the third world to come from wealthy Americans who haven’t really spent much time *in* the third world, or they’d be less romantic, and “get it” better about why countries don’t develop.
@ Prok – What I’ve learned from the OHAfrica folks is NOT to assume you know what someone else needs. They decided that we had the expertise in Canada (medical knowledge, systems knowledge, etc.) to help set up an HIV clinic in Lesotho. And first, we do: the level of training at the time in Lesotho, the lack of physicians, etc. meant there was a benefit from transferring knowledge.
What was interesting about it was that the attempts to transmit knowledge, which included Web-based approaches, didn’t work as well as just saying “OK, these are the things we know and have access to, how do you want to use them”.
The reason the project was so effective was that the response was: “send some physicians over here to help” which meant getting an on-the-ground perspective of the issues. It wasn’t a technology issue, it was a people one.
What’s interesting is that of the physicians and others who WENT, the ones who were successful were the ones with the humility to say “I’m at your service” rather than “Here’s how it’s done” – the latter didn’t understand the cultural context and were generally ignored.
On this basis, I don’t see a difference between the developing world and the rest of it: there are people with knowledge or resources, and there are other people without it. It’s not much more complicated than that.
And like the rest of the world, the solution usually isn’t the application of technology because, well, because it’s there, but rather facilitating listening, because often the most intractable problems don’t have technology as their solution – often it’s something simple.
So my tendency is to agree with you: the idea that we take a backpack full of laptops and solar panels or whatever and like Johnny Appleseed dispense technology in our wake seems to me to be paternalistic and misguided.
Having said that, this doesn’t discount the desire to make a difference, whether it’s in the developing world or around the corner: You tell me know I could be useful to you, and I’ll respond with whatever I know and will try to bring whatever resources I may have at hand.
It’s likely we’ll both realize there were things we didn’t know we didn’t know, but those things are less about what “world” we come from, or how good our graphics cards are, and more about, as you say, just being people.
[...] has been waxing philosophical about the virtues of, um, electricity. And the Lab has been supporting research at MIT in which a [...]
I agree that the ESC version of CSI was a failure despite what the ESC say. Like many of their previous projects, they developed fantastic machinima, but the concept did not live up to the hype of those videos. We could talk about why in length, but the real point of my comment is not to critize the ESC, but to state that I do believe CSI and other franchises aren’t completely off base thinking that there is potential to create immersive experiences, but it would require them to throw away what they “know” and change. People no longer want to be advertised at and creating commerical SIMS that are just blatant advertisements for their franchise and others is not fun or immersive and they aren’t fooling anyone. If they truly want immersion, they should throw away their current agenda, and start by creating something of value to the existing community and go from there. If they are ever willing to be open to expanding while considering the public good, then they can give me a call, and I would be more than happy to help them (or they can just continue down the same path of failures).
@Gianna – I really think that James Cameron’s project, Avatar, will blow the lid off storytelling across media, and of course change our perspectives of 3D entertainment.
It always depends on how immersive someone wants to get. CSI has been the basis for a handful of console and computer games, yet the best Crime Scene Investigation type experience has been the Condemned: Criminal Origins series from Monolith. The difference? The investigation parts can be interesting to watch on television, but are tedious as the sole play mechanic in an interactive experience. Condemned added, can you guess, combat to the narrative? A little action is needed. Some fun and maybe some scares. Unfortunately Linden Lab is nearly allergic to the concept of fun and while it would be easy for them to add facilities to the simulator code to allow development of action and more interactive experiences, they continue to stroke a flaccid business tool to no happy ending.
I think the reason people are getting bored with Virtual Worlds is because there has been no innovation in quite some time. It looks like what MIT is doing could be achieved with a web came and video streaming in both directions.
Ack… so much information! I especially enjoyed the last video you linked from Jon Brouchard. I think he must have been giving this kind of talk many times because it is a refined and elegant collection of key aspects of SL as a collaborative 3D environment from the architectural perspective. In my post that you linked, I had a thought about the exploration of space without an avatar in google earth, and how I was a bit lost without that forcing function of perspective (namely location and scale).
You (Dusan) covered a lot more ground, including the flow of geographic data, and it reminded me of one of the GIS killer app aspects of Earth was how it allowed the seaming effortless and seamless convergence of so many sources of geographical data. This was no small thing. I hope in the future we have a SL world that does the same kind of data flows.
HUH???
Dusan;
Dig a little deeper into Viwogeo and you will find Skidz Partz and a new map application for the Second Life Grid, (not to be confused with other unidentified, unpublished Linden Lab Grid(s)).
The Second Life Map & Search features used inSL and the Second Life web site, including the auction pages, is just terrible and increasingly worthless.
I question, considering all of Rosedale’s rhetoric and the competing technologies out there, Google Earth, Google Maps and Microsoft’s versions, why Linden lab has neglected, maybe very deliberately, these primary and valuable discovery and navigation tools.
Well it looks like someone in the inSL resident community just may call the Lab’s bluff and trump the Lindens at their own game.
Go to these links and take a look:
http://gvurl.com/
http://gvurl.com/About.aspx
Open the map, Zoom out, and then use the left side search tab. OMG!! Fast, more current then the inSL LL version. and easier to use. Yes their SL grid map graphics are now a bit primitive but I am sure will get better. Just think what they can do with it.
I think this is fantastic, since this will really step on the Lab’s toes.
Thanks JeanRicard: I meant to point GVURL out, but I couldn’t remember what it was called! I blogged about it previously here.
Speaking as a business owner who came onto SL earlier in the year to examine the potential for using it for collaboration / customer service…
There are a fundamental problems not being addressed in general by SL / LL regarding the business community. They were dealbreakers for bringing my business into SL.
For starters, the TOS makes abundantly clear that you essentially do not own your account, your property, or anything you do in SL. Sorry, but businesses just don’t tolerate a situation where they don’t truly own or licence their assets in a legally meaningful way.
Next, privacy. I have yet to see a clear discussion of who logs what, when and where, and how those logs are kept and regulated. By discussing my business in SL, I am leaving myself open to having my content and privacy exposed without any clear idea of how anything is regulated legally. Again, this is in no way acceptable.
Service issues: the site goes down frequently, it crashes, there seems to be no way to subscribe easily to maintenance notices or service interruptions, and sometimes you can be blocked out of logging in for literally an hour while a problem is being solved. Fine for personal… not fine for business.
Lastly, the inability to back up your own content to a third-party source, which is especially significant considering the issues with SL’s system and inventory loss. Not only do I not truly own my content in a meaningful way, but I can’t even back it up. Again, dealbreaker.
I don’t know if the above is being dealt with any significant way with this ’separate’ and vague system being discussed above, but I can say that no serious business implementation is really going to occur until issues like the above are solved. I’m a big fan of SL and it has huge potential, but I have no serious intention of pissing my content / time / privacy down a well into LL’s obscurity. Businesses need ownership, consistency, reliability, and legal rights, in order to seriously adopt any platform. Right now SL is light years from that.
Keystone, if I ever had my doubts that you were a collectivist, they were utterly removed with your post here.
This all falls into place for me a little better, by what Justin just said here: “Immersive Workspaces is part of Linden Lab, they have an exclusive license for our products and services.”
Bingo! It’s like RRR then becomes a subsidiary of the Lab, or in a joint venture. Of course you have to go through the Lab! Because development costs money, programmers and staff have to be paid with money, and this folly of opensource carrying the day, and freebies carrying the day, doesn’t cut it. You can’t earn income in that fashion. Killer apps don’t come from opensource; they come from proprietary software and services that are developed in secret with FIC. That’s the way of the world. We can only hope they pick *good* FIC.
Sure, it would be better if they had open bids, taking 3 proposals after an open and transparent RFP, just like a government or big contracting company. But they’re a little software company and they do what they want. It’s a free market. That’s how freedom works. They are not required to hand over all their software to you.
You have — ridiculously — placed your entire faith in all this wikitecture opensource dreck. And no, it doesn’t deliver. You don’t do complex things like develop spaces behind firewalls unless you are already IBM and already pay IBM to have Zha fly around, or you are a company with an NDA that has an exclusive contract.
If you think opensource provides business solutions, um, go get the Clever Zebra business-in-a-box package. The Lordfly stadium is free, and there’s a lot of other free stuff.
Honestly, I seriously don’t get what you all are whining about. You didn’t get the deal? When you were featured on the website for the SL Grid; when you are selected for Showplaces; when you are given acres of press steered by the Lab, Keystone, we never hear a complaint from you about the unfair system. We never hear the sorts of complaints *we* make here in the cheap seats on the mainland about a rigged FIC system. You benefit from it, but the minute it doesn’t really deliver, you go all opensource on it, chastizing the Lab for being a capitalist instead of a communist. It’s hilarious.
I don’t know why the mainland or the open grid isn’t very compelling these days to Justin or his clients, but he’s been around since the dawn of time and he’s worked every angle and tried every conceivable model on it, and I simply fail to see why we all have to be together in one big unhappy collective farm on one grid. This is the constant complaint of course of Khamon Fate. Why can’t there be more than one grid?
Why can’t there? It’s only ideology, and this silly “connect us all to a world [just one] that can improve the human condition”. Hey, what if a business doesn’t want to be all connected, and just wants to sell, oh, I don’t know, cars and cigarettes? Maybe they don’t want to be *forced* to “better the human condition”. And why should they? It’s a free market!
All this happy bullshit about the commmuuuunity and all its viiiibrancy is a shill.
Basically, Keystone, your beef is summed up in this way: “Why didn’t you pick me?” Had they picked you, we wouldn’t be hearing about any “community” I assure you.
Who said anything about open source?
Getting a feature or two from Linden Lab, next to dozens of others, is a far cry from an exclusive business relationship.
It does seem though, in light of this new direction for the Lab, “pick me” might become a necessarily new business model for work in SL. Who’s next?
inflation cause price increases…but world is not experiencing inflation–so this is just price gauging in times of economic confusion. I hope consumers will remember which companies try to gauge and take their spend elsewhere. Oil is less than $60/barrel.
You can’t ride the wave up and then forget your customers or employees when things get tough. This is moment of truth and time to show what any organization is all about at its core. Pirates or worthy suppliers?
Good luck for your pitch !
May be you could tell them that the French Navy has used Second Life (and may would use it again… or Open Sim) last year.
They have a submarine but we have the Colbert’s Corvette ship
Check this :
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stonfield-inworld/2074236742/sizes/l/
Great interview and great to hear more about Immersive Workspaces. RRR has placed an enormous investment in the Second Life platform and everyone who participates in its internal economy. Justin’s dedication over time is moving. I’m a believer that a “rising tide lifts all boats” for the platform. Email was not fit for business either, in the bad old days.
Keystone, if you cannot see what is happening here I question your credentials in dealing with RL business situations. Rivers Run Red is doing the right thing here, he is not in a position to talk about LL’s plan for their firewall solution. This is the basis of an NDA, he is not allowed to talk about it. Why you feel the need to continue raising this moot point? This is not about YOU, this is about Linden Lab waiting for the right time to address this issue. They need to have it all in place, not for the sake of your feelings, they need to steal a march on their competitors and secure their market position. If you’re a professional content developer, act like one.
RightasRain, I have read a lot of your blog posts relating to these points. I have to say what you’ve been speculating is bordering on scandalous accusations. Utterly unprofessional.
Your posts are deliberate attempts to stir and create further speculation.
I attended an inworld session with RRR/LL talking about the potential of Solution Providers getting involved with this new commercial project. I also noticed both your absences. Shame, as I walked away informed and excited about the potential of business collaboration. This was open to all Solution Providers, it was well attended and all questions met with solid answers.
As Orange also said, ‘rising ride lifts all boats’. If you cannot rise with this, then maybe you’re not rising to the challenge of the Mark Kingdom’s coined term Second Wave.
If you think blindly investing your work, your money, and your time in a platform without keeping a close and critical eye on its sudden, uncharted and potentially questionable moves, then I question your judgment just the same.
Nothing about this discussion is trivial, scandalous or unprofessional, and we’re simply reviewing specific points he describes in a public interview regarding a project in which we all have vested interest. Nobody asked him to reveal terms hidden in the NDA, nor would we expect as much!
[...] Life There is a fascinating interview over at Dusan Writer’s metaverse with Justin Bovington of Rivers Run Red regarding immersive [...]
[...] business model and policy wasn’t particularly well thought out. Take the phishing scams, evidence that Google [...]
…or role play
Or role play. True. Or commerce. Or owning land. Hmmm now that I think about it.
….Mind you, I’ve always bought the metaverse roadmap definitions, distinguishing between mirror worlds and immersive ones. What’s intriguing about SL and the Grid is that it’s, in some ways, acting like it’s both with more real/virtual world connections. You see life-logging of a sort in SL as well, and that MIT project is a lot like augmented reality, in some respects. So I suppose it’s important to define what “quadrant” we’re talking about.
Lively was immersive, but the only level you could get to really was decorating and chat.
[...] no small thing, but maybe they can port the cartoons over from Lively and we can all meet in virtual Ancient Rome. Empires come and go, and others just relocate. Tagged: 3d web, lively, mycosym, Second Life, [...]
One word reaction: hooray!
It continues to bother me to no end that the press lumps all systems with avatars into “virtual worlds”. A world is a large connected place that you traverse seamlessly (except for border crossings I suppose). Applications that serve up disconnected rooms are not worlds. That will be the case with Blue Mars as well, which while supporting larger spaces, will still be disconnected. Some day the press and eventually the general public will come to appreciate the power of a connected world, where you an just pick a direction and walk until the ban lines or end of the map get in your way.
Whoah! Big news. Now watch the mainstream media declare the death of virtual worlds. After all, if the biggest online company in the world has given up on them then that must be the end of it! *sigh*
And I’m sorry, but I don’t buy that Google Earth is a virtual world, it’s missing a key component – the MMO bit. Where are the avatars, the socialisation? It’s the social networking aspect that makes virtual worlds rock. That’s why they don’t even have to be 3D, like Habbo and Club Penguin.
Until these other worlds offer the creativity that Second Life has to offer they will flop. Blue Mars is one to look at, although the everyday person will not be able to build, I’m sure there are some positives in that, but the thing that still keeps me in Second Life is that the limitations are still very much boundless.
[...] now this is cool. Dusan Writer points out the horribly named Viwogeo, from a link provided by Pais [...]
Did you see that Alexey Pajitnov is among the creators of Blue Mars? (Or at least in their advisory board.) He is the guy who invented Tetris.
Re: Blue Mars – it has some good talent behind it. Syd Mead is involved. Looks beautiful. But the theme and business model is a lot like Entropia no? And while it may have had a visual edge, Entropia has just announced that it’s switching to Crysis as well for graphics – so what will the difference be?
Blue Mars won’t allow content creation in world, you’ll need to either be approved or buy a grid or whatever, very complicated and only top-end developers need apply.
Mycosym – nice approach, mini Grids and so on, think openSim but with nicer graphics – but again, content will be developed external to the world, no rezzing prims, although taking advantage of current 3D content pipelines. But their economic model is odd, at least the way I understand it.
I don’t see anything on the horizon (OpenSim excepted) in which you an rez prims in world – but you tell me…is this a pro or a con? Maybe with 3D programs like TruSpace (free), Blender, Poser, etc. we should all be making stuff on our own, but there’s something different to me about being able to build in a social space. Otherwise it’s more of a game somehow.
[...] popular or because Google didn’t like the fact that people were using it for sexual purposes. At Dusan Writer’s Metaverse, he notes that the service wasn’t very good to start with, something with which I concur. When I tried it out, I was disappointed by the small number of [...]
Umm, just a minor caveat. Vivaty and Lively are both true 3D. Why do you call them “not three dimensional” and “2.5D”? Metaplace, Habbo, those are 2.5D. And Maple Story is 2d.
Keystone,
My point here, is why are you questioning it, are you even interested in this area, are you capable of supporting and delivering Enterprise based work?
I had a look at your web site, there is no evidence of integration work? Your architecture work is excellent, does that though mean you could support this kind of product offering, or would want to?
Enterprise, which from experience, requires a different set of skills, is very different to creating great looking builds in Second Life.
IMHO I think we will see a lot more professional services companies coming into our space. Don’t fear the solution, be worried about the solution that gives the BIG agencies a turnkey opportunity without the need for costly project management and origination.
Things have of course happened since you wrote your reply.
This is what I have found out:
I know from discussion with others Solution Providers, they’re pitching this right now, they want to get ahead of the curve. Doesn’t that also tell you something? I for one have also started showing the Immersive Workspaces video to my clients.
Get involved now, or be left behind. Evolve, the nature of any business/market is change. Blaming others for ‘your lack of business’ is a bad sign, maybe you need to readdress your business model?
David
Raph – I stand corrected. Thanks.
David – I’ll just chime in here briefly to stand in Keystone’s defense a bit: I honestly believe that Wikitecture was one of the first, and is still one of the best real world use cases for virtual worlds. It includes deep integration with Web-side services and databases, offers a deeper purpose than meeting (not that meeting isn’t a deep purpose, it’s just that whereas meetings have multiple venues, Wikitecture is the best example of actually using the tools of a 3D collaborative platform to its fullest), has had proven results including acknowledgment outside the virtual world industry, awards, evangelism to a wide audience, and transparent sharing of the case studies and results. (I look forward to specific examples and case studies from the RRR work being shared so that we can all continue to enhance our best practices).
All of which is to say I think Keystone has actually been ahead of the curve and in fact REMAINS ahead of the curve. There are others who I consider in-world architects, whereas what Keystone has struck upon is using a 3D environment for cross-platform collaboration work. Architecture is, in a sense, not at all what Keystone’s work strives to explore and ACHIEVES – it’s just a nice short hand in a sense, meant to embody not buildings but rather information space, user interaction with archetypes, collaboration, and meaning.
So, I’m not entirely sure that his issue is with evolving business models. His problem has been similar to my own: change is good, creative renewal is good, but it’s nice to be able to place a marker somewhere and plan business activities based on an understanding of the evolving road map of a technology and to leverage the advantages of whatever technology path you choose, for whatever strategic reasons.
I was under the impression, and still believe, that one of the platform advantages of Linden Lab’s products (the “Grid” and Second Life) is the opportunity for serendipity, collaboration, and access to a community of creative, talented people. This move has lacked a road map that’s visible to the wider community (until very very recently), and doesn’t explicitly encourage what I also believe are a few of the main value propositions of the Grid as a whole.
In many ways I think everyone’s on the same page here: let’s advance the platform, let’s keep the doors of collaboration open, let’s understand what the future holds and where we’re going. I don’t see any of what has been said as at cross-purposes (although I, like Keystone, don’t understand what open source has to do with anything).
And I’d like to hear how your business model is changing David: what are you now considering that you weren’t before? What worked before that will now work because of Immersive Spaces and other applications like it? Where do you get information on the road map? And do you believe that access to the innovation community of SL is an important platform advantage for the Lab’s products? Can you point us to the awards and wider press/publications you’ve had of your work so we can understand your perspective a bit more (and seriously, I mean this in an honest way, I don’t mean to be snarky, I’m just curious).
Overall though, and again, I think everyone has shared the belief that the future is arising, it’s the means by which we can grab hold of it that are perhaps muddled a bit.
This decision has the potential to affect everyone, so I struggle with the assertion that I shouldn’t concern myself with this just because I’m only a design consultant.
I do sincerely hope this really is what’s best for business, and all of the other people using Second Life. I also hope it addresses each of BizOwner’s concerns (the same concerns we all have, even on the regular grid), because I really do want to see SL succeed. I’ll admit I’m probably being overly skeptical, and could have this all wrong. But its just that – down here below the high level enterprise business stratum, we can still see the wreckage from other decisions and investments that didn’t go according to plan. Since this is one we’re all tied to, I think it only makes sense to examine it, and ask questions.
ive noticed a few blogs/stories- mimicing the 2.5d meme..
maybe er.. research.. and editing.. before “publishing” would be the answer to WHY?..lol
more fun in the age of google “doing no evil”…
anyhow , i rss therefore i am.
c3
Well what’s odd about the 2.5D meme is – well, WHY did I think it was 2.5D? Because it really didn’t feel 3D to me. And I’m going to chalk it up to a few things, although I really should log in again to have a look and make sure my memory serves, but here goes:
1. As I recall, your camera position was limited
2. This did not allow you to have a sense that you were actually in control of your avatar, or “seeing through their eyes”
3. Although it may have been a 3D space, I don’t remember being able to rotate my view around from the back – am I wrong about that?
4. You moved your avatar by lifting it up with your mouse button and moving it around like a chess piece.
OK, so maybe it’s not technically a 2.5D space, but these things made it feel less fully ’rounded’ somehow than a true 3D space like you’d find in a game, whatever. It’s more how it feels, I guess, than technically what it was. I mean, sure, it wasn’t Isometric or whatever but I don’t remember feeling like I was actually “in” my avatar because of the camera and the avatar movement controls.
Finally, I didn’t mean to lump Vivaty in as a 2.5D world, it just ended up in a paragraph about virtual environments popping up. In any case, I corrected the post.
But there’s something in all of this about when does an avatar feel like “you”, does it need to be 3D to do that, do avatar movement controls matter, and in the absence of decent game mechanics or other features, if it doesn’t feel like you, (or an imaginary version of same) then what the heck are you there for in the first place.
[...] was a nice experiment, but it will soon be over: Google Lively will be discontinued. As Dusan Writer says: But the surprise virtual world entry is the one that arrived before Google Lively, in my [...]
as for one with over 20 years “ahead of the web3d curve” i can only suggest that the real problem being expressed is the same one that has caused 2 “past” web3d bubbles to fizzle into “who- wheness”?.
A successful “media” Industry needs set’s of tool makers, end service providers, and platform providers that all provide COMPLIMENTARY componants to a ” projects” success.
If Linden, like MANY of the web3d “companies” before it, wont allow itself to be a “part” of a ecosystem for business, but only “THE” business…, then my “ahead of the curve” experience tells me youll all be selling flash based visuals again in a year.:)
Adobe walked foolishly into the “service-tools” arena last year and was slapped hard by the creative media industries… Google/you tube is just about ready for a rude wake up call from the media makers for NOT understanding that ALL must eat for any sort of industry to take place.
We wont even go into the current auto industry and its banker woes as a slow example of the obvious loss of industrial organizational thinking in the us and the corporate world in general.
anyhow.
RRR wont be providing those blogged hyped “cutting edge platform” avalon workspaces for Lively it seems:) and except for the cross grid IP violations i worry about, they can work with Linden fine:) and offer any products they agree too….
But lets not fool ourselves into any thoughts that this is a good thing for a wider web3d/ vr industry. Its not. In fact i havent seen almost any activity in the last 2 years of SL mania, that has been truly targeted at any real professional organizations and industry. My NYVRMSIG and SFWEB3D orgs from 96 and 2001 with none of the resources of the “current” VR pundits backers was truer to an “industry birth organization” than any of the web3d “ning sites” collecting mailing list names for pr announcement day after day.
anyhow enjoy your show.
c3
i think it was livelys “horrible” drag the curser/avatar around by mouse- interface that “gave” you the limited feel of sapce and the ability to navigate in it.
there were camera/poc controls, but they worked really poorly as interface IMO, and coupled with the limited” as far as my mousepad goes” technique of av dragging it created a very “limited” feel space.
but it was all 3d engine driven…-)
i still think the other blogs just kept rss/copy /pasted the wrong info— from one blog to another.
I had this feeling at AM Radio’s last exhibit too. I watched the other visitors interact with they setting, and realized they were using it to make their own story. People wearing demon masks flew high over head on giant geese, a couple in 1950s clothing drove an old car down the road. I rode my horse around, exploring, then sat on him in the wheat field watching the show.
AM Radio has a way of capturing a moment of stillness, both full of and totally devoid of action at the same time. I love his builds.
Beautifully written, Dusan. That sense that there is something just around the corner and yet to come impels me to continue my virtual/actual quest. Its elusiveness is sometimes frustrating…
[...] Composer was a significant milestone, achieving near seamless integration between 3DS Max and Second Life and OpenSim. Which meant that [...]
[...] Six months ago Philip Rosedale handed over the operational tiller of Second Life to Mark Kingdon, formerly of Organic, so that he could focus on vision, and technology, and electricity. [...]
I wonder how he’d react to Eric Reuters’ post today.
@Crap – By which you mean this post
Well, Eric Reuter has his opinions, and I sort of agree with them, but also don’t. It seems to me the current use model of SL can only go so far, so I think he’s wrong there. I do think he’s right about the current rep of SL in the mainstream press, but a lot of that is willful ignorance and stupidity on their part.
Great interview, Dusan, at least it shows he’s paying attention and that he does seem to care. Also you do realize the LL employees felt the punching bag effect of the reaction to openspaces, as opposed to how the blithering masses think LL doesn’t care and is trying to take them for a ride.
Thanks for this post.
Great interview Doug! I feel I really have an idea of the state of play at Linden Lab now. I have been thinking a lot lately about how Web 2.0 and Virtual World technology have a lot offer each other, even though Second Life continues to be pretty isolated from the Web (something that it seems will improve in the future according to Mark Kingdon).
Second Life and Wikipedia are the two great experiments in collaborative co-creation of our times. They show us many of the keys to creating the kind of participatory global culture that will be foundation of sustainable living, and the way to create a viable alternative to this economy of escalating consumption that has us in its death grip today.
I am happy that SL continues to have a visionary hand at the helm.
Excellent content and style…keep up the good work!
Nice interview, Dusan. Reading M’s answers might make people think “Oh how great and shiny everything is and how even better it will be!”. And yes, it is. On the surface. Underneath it things look very different. People were always critical of LL, but they also were always hoping and (most of them) ready to acknowledge positive developments. Many of those voicing harsh critic about this or that on the other hand still defended LL in general. For many, these times are over.
What I see these days is a more and more growing “F*** LL” mentality – not really a surprise looking at how bad they messed with us. I just checked the economic statistics: 1105 regions less than on oct 31st – while there should be some 750 more. People are giving up on SL, not even waiting anymore for january when the price hike will come into effect. People just don’t like to give their hard earned money to street robbers and backstabbers.
The OS price change was a necessary business decision? Even if it was (and I seriously doubt it really was, at least not in this totally mad dimension), the way it was done and communicated is even more upsetting than the 67 percent price hike itself. Inviting people to discuss, naming forum threads like “Discussion with…” or “More talk with…” and then more or less *never* really discussing or talking? How poor is that, what does it tell us just how “important” the residents are to LL? And the crown of it being an “ammended” policy/price change that actually is worse than the original. “Look what a great company we are, we listen to our customers! We won’t cut off your heads in january, we will only cut off your right hand! … Your head we will cut off in july. Enjoy!”
So Mr Kingdon, I’m sorry (actually, I’m not), but I call your talking a smoke screen. The part about the OS debacle are an attempt to nicely wrap up lies and LL’s own mistakes and messups.
The one good thing about all this is, that LL’s terribly poor business and customer relation behaviour most likely will give the development of alternatives a big push. I just had my 2nd rezzday, and while there are quite a lot older residents around, in these 2 years I witnessed many crisises, from gambling ban to VAT to discrimination attempts at SL5B. Through all of this there was and is one red line: the total lack of customer appreciation and customer care. Well, the words are there – but not the actions to show that there is more than just nice words. I sticked to LL/SL through all of this, I critisized, but also defended them. Despite all problems, I still saw SL as something great – and I hate seeing it being destroyed from the inside. SL gave me something great, it changed my life. But even the biggest credit some day runs out, and I am at this point now. I will not expand my SL business anymore (oh well, LL destroyed it anyways), I will not invest a single RL dollar anymore, and I will watch the alternatives closely. As soon as they become *real* alternatives, I will move the center of my online existence away from SL.
So, Mr Kingdon, have fun with your shiny facade. Just make sure to never scratch the surface, you might be in for a really bad surprise.
Have to agree with Daniel, judged by their actions Linden Lab are either clueless or untrustworthy and quite possibly both.
“That’s how we arrived at the pricing amendment – through great input from Residents.”
It’s statements like that which sum-up LL for me. They try to spin it as a positive “we’re listening” thing but all it really reveals is how incredibly naïve they are. They “analyzed it over and over” and yet STILL went ahead with that infamous blog-post. It’s not that I think the new prices are wrong – it’s that these should have been the prices they launched the new OS sims with in the first place. They truly seem to have no business sense AT ALL and without that SL will simply fail.
Everyone I know in SL still loves the idea of virtual worlds but is just waiting for something better than Second Life to come along so they can leave. LL have trampled all over most of the trust and loyalty they’d built up over the past few years and that’s very depressing.
Excellent interview.
You asked once before in a post to know more about what the roadmap for LL and SL was, and obviously M was focused on responding. I was pleased to see as substantive a set of responses as any CEO would give outside a closed meeting room. I am for once impressed. This is great marketing, and as we say a great capture.
Everyone knows what goes on inside any large organization is not reflected in the marketing and public sales pitch. We must remember Mark Kingdon (formerly of Organic) is foremost a marketing man with a management accounting background. That said, I do like the fact that there is at least a stated corporate vision here that goes beyond the polar statements of GeeWizz; 3D, user content and microtransactions are the future of the internet but on the other hand, this is a hard business, we will have to play hardball now to make more profit, to grow, even survive.
I would make one suggestion to M. if he expects to sell us on “The Vision”. Stop using the term “The Consumer Market”. Maybe that works great talking inside the company, to investors and outside CEOs but not to the resident community, the content and experience creators, land owners and renters, Linden Lab’s real Partners.
[...] the mean while, Linden Lab’s CEO M. Linden gave an interview to Mr. Dusan Writer (published here). The main tone of that? ‘All happy. All good.’ A quote: “80% of our business is [...]
[...] do you see this as a benefit to other Second Life/Grid users besides enterprise? (Note: I recently interviewed Justin Bovington of Rivers Run [...]
By the way, nice interview!
Anything said about Teen Grid?, if not then it would be great if someone would interview M Linden about TSL and also what M plans to do in the near future for TG. Thanks!
Because the last time M Linden said something was back on 3rd of July 08 for the TSL Birthday celebrations: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SL5B/MTSL.
All I’m saying is that there SHOULD be more TSL Coverage about the Teen Grid, I know teen grid residents would be really interested in the latest developments etc.
It’s a cultural statement by an elite geek. He scorns Second Life as a “walled garden,” therefore it is an island. World of Warcraft shows up as contiguous space with other games like Lineage, possibly because he figures the geeks playing WoW play the other games, or played them, and form a kind of contiguous “world”.
Scorn for SL is also revealed in the “Noob” and “Sea of Culture” proximity, by which he really means “mass culture.”
Like the New Yorker map that shows E. 44th Street larger than Europe or Afghanistan, note the disproportionate size of the IRC Channel Isles and the Blogipelago, when blogs are read by a minority of Internet users.
English history-writing used to be dominated by the Whig theory of history. Everything that ever happened in English history was wonderful and the only change that ever happened was that things became even more wonderful. It’s instructive to contrast M’s description of how everything in Second Life is wonderful with Eric Reuters’ experience. Neither Second Life nor Linden Lab need constant boosting followed by constant under-performance. Both they and we need a few things to be fixed.
I look forward to seeing Blue Mars and the new CE2 version of Entropia Universe.
Building is certainly part of the Second Life attraction for many users, but how many? This article is interesting:
http://www.alleyinsider.com/2008/11/why-reuters-left-second-life-and-how-linden-lab-can-fix-it
“The very things that most appeal to Second Life’s hardcore enthusiasts are either boring or creepy for most people: Spending hundreds of hours of effort to make insignificant amounts of money selling virtual clothes, experimenting with changing your gender or species, getting into random conversations with strangers from around the world, or having pseudo-nonymous sex”
Based on my experience as developer and event organizer in SL, I think building things is not very important for many users – quality content and interesting events are more important. I think this is the case for a majority of users.
WoW does not allow it and is much more popular than SL, with experimental initiatives to take it beyond FPS and use it like a social VR world:
http://metaxlr8.com/blog/index.php/First_Scientific_Conference_in_World_of_Warcraft
I think Blue Mars (for what I have read so far, I hope to be in the beta soon), open to professional 3rd party developers but not to casual users, may become an interesting social world.
nice catch.
Gee, Dusan, Princess Ivory fits right in on this blog, huh? Some of these usability issues are ones you’ve brought up, yourself.
Linden Lab’s great folly with regard to open spaces has been that they expected reasonable behavior from their residents. They put out reasonable guidelines for use of land and expected the residents to adhere to the spirit of the guidelines without any kind of policing.
What they got instead was an aggressive gaming of the system. People squeezed every last prim out of their open space sims and used temp-rezzers to make up for anything they couldn’t get otherwise. Then they packed in scripts and avatars.
Not everybody did this, obviously, but a clear enough majority to be a major problem, completely unanticipated by Linden Lab.
The great advantage that M brings to the table is that he carries both the newbie wonder at this amazing second world and a businessman’s eye and experience. He, despite his newbieness, would not be caught off guard by residents’ desperation to have a place of their own making.
I would even bet that he understands it in a visceral way–I did, six months in. I had done enough exploring, seen enough of the everything that is Second Life, that I knew that I would find whatever way I could to make my space here.
It is the “whatever way I could” that Linden Lab, with its naive, software developer sensibility, completely missed. I think M gets it.
So here is my advice for M Linden: Trust the residents, love the residents, live in their delight and their passion, but put everything in writing and enforce it.
Nice post. It seems that LL have their “favorites” to talk to – after two attempts to get interviews for “SLentrepreneur Magazine” it seems we aren’t big enough. But that’s not your fault, Dusan, just a comment on how information is distributed from LL and to whom
At least you got the information!
As to the Eric Reuters article, I am stunningly unimpressed. It simple expresses the views of one person who, by his own admission, became disaffected and saw things as being “as exciting as watching paint dry.” Sadly, the article was disappointing because the title was “Why Reuters Left Second Life,” and he didn’t give any reasons! All I saw were some suggestions for improvement, which have been made before a number of times by many residents who post to the LL blog.
It sounds more like Eric got tired of writing about Second Life and wanted a new job – which he got. What would be more interesting is to know WHY Reuters decided not to have someone else cover things – again, maybe they saw no point in it. We still don’t know WHY they left.
Eris said >LL have trampled all over most of the trust and loyalty they’d built up over the past few years and that’s very depressing.<
Agree with that. Although depressing is a “bit” of an understatement when you loose about 20000USD investment because of their decisions concerning regions in 2008.
But hey, it’s just a small loss against their earnings. So what? We are all happy still…right? We trust LL on their decisions.
You don’t? Shame on you!!
Also, some of the ones I’ve brought up in JIRA
[VWR-7456] At viewer startup, do not automatically load messages received while offline. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7456
[...] recently posted what was really a hoax (or at the very least mislabeled), but it was fun to watch anyways…a [...]
Wow. That’s neat.
Where is Canada? Is that somewhere in the outer space world the grups are always talking about?
Excellent interview, Dusan, as always!
One thing I’m noticing in recent public communications from the Lab is more use of emotive words. “Delight” seems to be a big one lately, and a focus on “intuitive” design. I like that shift in verbiage and hope it’s got the ring of sincerity and not just market-speak.
Thanks again for all the terrific work you do keeping us informed about what’s happening behind the scenes, I’m really a huge fan.
[...] will be growing rapidly. We will comfortably acclimating people to the virtual world“; http://is.gd/8Vcv [...]
Voting for someone just because he isn’t Stephen Harper isn’t voting aimlessly! *waves from Yonge & Eg*
Icha.
Hahaha good point Ichabod.
Geez, Canadians popping out of the woodwork all over the place. We need a little SL meet & greet in Toronto sometime like all those weenies in New York do. (Oops, I just showed the typically Canadian inferiority complex).
I enjoyed reading this article very much / thank you :_)
as far as my position and thoughts / I have been here in SL 3 years + / my annual subscription is due in December which I will renew for 1 more year / however at this point and with recent and past developments and disappointments / the next year I will spend in a complete holding pattern / i will not lift one more finger of help to LL / and I will continue to keep an eye on emerging alternative Virtual Reality Grids coming on-line / when the right one pops up / I will gradually migrate from SL and re-establish myself somewhere else
there is an old saying M. Linden / To Little~To Late / you folks at LL blew it. And as far as your shiny new technical Network Wizard formally from AOL *coughs* well…….
We all know what happened to them!
thanks for the great article and interview Dusan / byeee
JayR Cela :_)
M Linden’s explanation of the OS price rise simply makes no sense. A number of estate owners found that Jack Linden’s explanations, offered in private, were equally unpersuasive.
I suspect LL needs an entirely new revenue model that spreads the burden more evenly among users, perhaps through a conventional subscription model like EVE Online or WoW, but that’s another debate. Let’s accept, arguendo, that the the official explanation makes no sense because it is not the real explanation and that LL actually found itself needing new revenues because of the financial crisis.
The question then would be why did they choose to hit one segment (OS owners) with the whole of that burden, entirely exempting Mainland owners and others. I don’t have an answer yet, but it’s an interesting question.
[...] I’ve written about this next wave of innovation previously when I touched [...]
*voted* Interesting list of blogs!
If you win, we’ll have to hit up Timmies to celebrate ;D
A good interview all in all. However, it re-enforces my opinon that Mr. Kingdom is an optimist looking at Second Life through rose-colored glasses. When we compare Second Life to other computer enterprises we find it sorely lacking both financially, growth-wise, in customer satisfaction and in reputation. The system has some serious problems, yet we see virtually no mention of such in this interview– or in his other public presentations.
The line about them “carefully considering” the Open Space price hike is corporate propaganda, pure and simple. Their move has been analyzed by professionals over and over and it comes down to one thing: Linden Lab wanted more kaching out of a very viable situation. Every time I read him trying to justify that action just convinces me more of the wisdom of hunting out viable alternatives to the Linden Lab price-gouging monopoly.
A great article. M. Linden’s corporate-line responses were expected. End result: nothing all that informative. Company man, no doubt about it.
Good interview Dusan.
I’m sorry but the way he glazes over the openspace issue impresses me not. There is no high point to this, residents are getting shafted. There was absolutely no creativity in their policy or the so called changes, it was all shaft the resident. This won’t be forgotten in a hurry.
Actions speak louder than words, Linden Lab have a hell of a lot of actions to engage in. Trust has been eroded and it’s a deep erosion.
[...] had a fascination with interfaces – not just graphical interfaces, how to make them more intuitive, but also the devices that we use. I’m increasingly convinced that there are two significant [...]
[...] Lab is in communication over-drive it seems. Mark Kingdon’s recent interview, Ginsu talking about where the technology is headed, and Tom Hale asking Second Life residents to [...]
The Livelyzens (Lively users) are coming together to appeal to Google to keep Lively alive.
Lively is a great platform for interaction as well as creativity. It is easy to use, browser based, embeddable on webpages to bring a 3D experience right on your website. While Lively has been in beta and has limited capability in terms of the objects and avatars available, the Livelyzens have been able to come up with very creative ways to create art from what is available. All this in a “clean” 3D world thanks to Google’s vigilance in getting rid of rooms with inappropriate content. More than anything, Lively has become a place to make friends for life – from all over the world with wonderful people.
Please visit our website http://livelyzens.com and participate in the Lively Machinima contest we are conducting to show the creative potential of Google Lively. Please also sign our online petition http://livelyzens.com/petition.aspx
We kindly request netizens to support us in reviving a wonderful 3D world that is a kid friendly and a creative space for art and interaction amongst adults.
Can’t we just all send them an invitation to SL?
Just admit it, you’ve placed your pre-order for the Japanese Immersionalist Chick ten minutes ago! :d
Looks more tiresome than using mouse though, as mouse is a small movement, enlarged to a bigger one on the screen. On format iPhone it’s (awesomeness)² but on a 23″ screen using touch screen would become fitness? (that and I would constantly flip over my drink on the desk)
There is something fake about these AR stuffs. Like CNN’s fake holographic display.
Maybe the jap text mentions it but I doubt since this is one thing (actually the most important one) that a lot of these AR videos fail to mention: you DON’T actually see anything on your desk. Everything is happening on your screen.
It’s because Second Life is full of noobs. Many of the creators themselves and the land barons too (see above) are noob, meaning they are just users of the technology who has just stepped inside a ‘hidden world’ and really don’t understand what they are dealing with.
They are called ‘clueless’.
The Jap text mentions it all right. And most people will realise that the cube does not contain a hologram projector?
(They specify you need the software, cubes, sticks & webcam and you will see the results on your screen.)
>> So, power to the Livelyzens. Maybe instead of shuttering Lively, Google can be persuaded to sell it off: it’s a world made by its residents, after all, shouldn’t they have a say in what happens to it?
How about combining both of those thoughts: Sell it off to those residents themselves. Or maybe just charge a monthly usage fee.
But of course that won’t happen. Virtual world servers cost money, almost certainly more than the residents want to pay. So what they’re really doing is asking Google to keep footing the bill.
I would love to see the residents raise the money to buy Lively, and then form a co-op to run the thing. The first user-operated virtual world…
Perhaps the Livelyzens can check out Just Leap In, at http://www.justleapin.com. To me it seemed a lot like Lively, but better looking. Actual Lively users may disagree, though..
Second inventory can’t track an avatar’s position unless they actually respond to the IM. So don’t buy it for this reason.
Absolutely, a year ago the Mercedes announcement would have taken place in Second Life, but the simple fact of the matter is that today Second Life is almost an impossible sell for a brand marketer.
A fair share of the exposure SL now gets outside the community is negative to the point of mocking – witness the recent case of the British couple who met in SL and then got divorced. It just lacks credibility (even though there’s also an appreciation that virtual worlds per se have potential)
For what it’s worth I think Linden Labs has a golden opportunity to capitalise on the economic downturn and people staying indoors, and could do worse than to actually be up-front about a big draw that virtual worlds have – a place to escape the ‘desert of the real’ and be who or what you’ve always wanted to be (I posted about this almost a year ago: http://bit.ly/5AXk(
[...] is from Dusan Writers’ Interview with M Linden, a comment on the Open Space hiking debate; On 11.23.08 Doreen Garrigus [...]
@Vint: “Can’t we just send them an invitation to SL?”
Oh my Lord no! Do we really want “those people” flooding our land and taking our camping jobs? I’ve been to Lively and I’ve seen “their type.” Why, they even LOOK odd, with their pointy heads and skinny bodies. They just don’t look normal.
And will they bring any money or good with them? No! Lively had none of these so all they will do is gobble up our freebies, beg for Lindens, and harass our womenfolk.
It’s time to take a stand against these foreigners looking to change the very fabric of our society with their “strange beliefs” and “bizarre practices. Why, they don’t even know how to fly!
I, for one, say “No!” to the wholesale dilution of our virtual purity. I say “No!” to the excessive burden on our already fragile economy. And I say “No!” to End of Civilization As We Know It!!
Anyone with me?
“… after all, shouldn’t they have a say in what happens to it?”
Do we have in SL?
(ok, at least we might have OpenSim but that might not replace SL completely. And that’s maybe also not just in case of a shutdown but in general in the day to day operations and governance)
Google is also an open source contributor.. why not contribue Lively?
I really hope they at least opensource it once it’s shut down. Let those who still care continue to carry the torch.
Really extra ordinary workssssss…gr8 yaaaaaaaaaaa
[...] said in an interview by Dusan Writer some days ago: 80% of our business is focused on the consumer market — which of course includes [...]
[...] the ante further with his promise to focus on the “consumer experience” noting as he did recently that “80% of our investment and focus is on our core platform and our core consumer user. We [...]
[...] will allow easier integration of plug & play features and tools (very similar to Rheta’s winning UI entry, above). Currently, the SL viewer runs off of code that’s a big amorphous mess. By modularizing the [...]
If Howard had anything to do with the absolutely wonderful TiVo interface, than I’m happy with him.
The Lindens are long overdue for delivering something — anything. When was the last time they made a significant announcement that wasn’t about playing musical chairs in the executive cafeteria?
Honestly, as resident I don’t care who is new sitting there. It’s nice they introduced the new stuff member on the blog, but that’s it. But this is the same as M’s speech. It’s not even a promise to the residents, it’s an advertisement for people who might bring money.
When any of you or me or any other resident needed a promise for joy in SL? We’ll make and find joy, but don’t take our land away and make servers run smoothly.
I am generally very suspicious whenever I hear the word ‘joy’ in an official context.
It’s marked on my bullsh*t bingo card, pardon the term.
in another topic, you can follow this link to that EU repport about virtualworld and economy
http://www.enisa.europa.eu/pages/02_01_press_2008_11_20_online_gaming.html
Anyone remember the last time we tried to log on and got the “We’re Busy Fixing Stuff” image?
I’m as self centered and demanding of instant gratification as any other resident, I suppose. But every once in a while I get a bit of joy from pondering the complexity of the enterprise and the fact that one more day has dawned and SL hasn’t crashed into a pile of smoldering rubble.
I’m with dandellion here, more PR from the Lab instead of some hard facts and words we could count on. A couple of days ago I told you in chat that I’m watching the blog for new staff additions – waiting mostly for the introduction of “DamageControl Linden”. I don’t think this one here is it.
What is needed are some goodies for the residents, goodies that come into effect quickly, better immediatly – not again promisses for a bright future sometimes in the middle of next year. Some more advantages for premium users. Upping prims to lets say 20,000 per region. LL has to GIVE something instead of just taking and taking more again and again. And not something mystic, not some background gimmick or shiny display, but something that each and everyone can really feel and count and take advantage from himself. And as I said, it has to happen quickly. The UK was able to drop the VAT by 2.5 percent within 2 weeks, to fight the effects of the economic crises right NOW when they happen, not sometimes next year when even more damage is done. LL should be able to give something right NOW, too, to show the residents that they really are as appreciated as all the hot air comming from M’s mouth claims.
I think you over simplify not only Howard Look’s credentials, but make a broad sweeping judgement of how movies are made (not to mention the added complexity of computer-animated movies.)
I dare say there was never a single camera necessarily used in the conventional sense on WALL-E, or Ratatouille, so then who is the director?
Look has a long running experience in managing and working on cutting edge design teams, and even if you don’t want to give credit to the Linden’s in this fabulous free agent pick-up, believe me, you should.
Nicolo Luminos
I think you’re reading too much into the quote about modularization. I’m pretty sure it refers only to the UI widgets. The UI is in the process of being converted to XML definitions. The functions that those widgets can perform is still hardcoded. So you’ll be able to rearrange the deck chairs, but you won’t be able to make the freighter look like a clipper ship. And working with the XML code is probably as hard as working with the C++ code. Have a look at it in the skins/*/xui/*/ directory. It surely makes internationalization easier, but building the panel you show above would still require an expert.
He recently left Pixar? (you must ask yourself why anyone would leave Pixar to go to Linden Research)
He was part of the Tivo team? (if that UI is indicative of what this guy has in mind – pffft!)
A SGI guy from way way back.
SGI = Failure!
M Linden and his “cheers” is just more of the same BS we’ve come to expect from these clowns. M – want some advice? Fix your organisation, sort out your Goverance Team and whilst your at it – pull your head out of your ass with regard to this commercialism speak you put out on the 2nd Life blog!
Well, now they’ve found the Look, they just need to find the Feel!
Obvious pun, but someone had to make it
Joy to the world. Nice screw job on the OpenSim. Great good ole boy network being created.
Switch to OPenSim, and really be on the cutting edge for less the cost…like free..free is good.
I meant nice screw job on the Open Space islands. Not OpenSim. OpenSim is free, and how does 45,000 prims sound and still great performance.
[...] be easily imported into Second Life or OpenSim. Not that they aren’t already – I’ve blogged previously about importing real world models and cityscapes into Second Life, but I wonder if we’re just [...]
remember when the blog was used to communicate to the residents? when it had updates and new features and apologies and relevance to the residents? now, it’s introducing, X Linden or “Manager Soandso” head of Nothing Particularly Exciting Phase II…
Zyngo needs to be shut down. I was reading elsewhere somebody’s rants and raves about how they have been employing a scripter in SL to alter the scripts in thier machines, and force people to lose more. They went on to say that thier freeplay machines are untouched to get people thinking zyngo pays out alot and thier higher cost machines are all scripted up. they even explained how to do it.
There are people in SL telling lies about “algorythms and Hot/cold zones” (yes thats right)
to rake people in by the crowd full to play his machines, even though none of these facts are true.
Even the creator of zyngo knows this is bullshit.
The following is a public statement made by zyngo creator, Aargle Zymurgy, on Friday November 7 2008 regarding zyngo scores.
One Zyngo owner is making claims that Zyngo scores are dynamic. That is, they adjust gameplay according to the score set. This claim is a lie, and is being used to fraudulantly advertise his club. Gameplay, and any figures related to generation of numbers, devils, angels, jokers, etc. are out of ALL owners controls. Setting a score won’t make any difference.
Unquote.
The ultimate truth, zyngo is the biggest bunch of exploit shit that exists out there.
The only people making money with zyngo are the ones that have endless supplies of machines, and sell them to noobs for very close to full price.
zyngo is the greatest rip off in the history of sl.
you have been told.
For those people interested in Philip Linden speeches: I would suggest this speech and Q & A he did in Amsterdam recently.
http://metalive.wordpress.com/2008/11/12/philiprosedale/
Well I am willing to stick it out for one more year / see what happens in Linden Land / however I have all ready established an account on OSGrid / i guess i will float back and forth between the 2 and possibly 4 different virtual worlds over the course of the next 12 months / and make a decision then
JayR Cela :_)
Cool talk – it was worth sitting through all 28 minutes since even the Q&A part in the second half brought up interesting points and reflection.
I am interested in how to describe the “juice” that gives SL interaction a more compelling experience than other computer-based interaction, and he touched on this best, I think, when he compared the typical mode of moving through information on the web – his example being shopping on Amazon where thousands of others are also simultaneously shopping but you can’t just turn to them and ask someone in the same area as you their opinion. Thus, the point being made is that humans are inherently social beings and a virtual world feed this part of ourselves that is otherwise missing or less actionable in the other hypertext-based web of the internet.
At the end, there was a question about a statement “we may come to prefer our digital selves” and the recoil that people have at such a “frightening disruption” at the kinds of change virtual worlds will likely bring, but the genie is out of the bottle now, that disruptive change is inevitable now, and we are in for an amazing ride.
I have to agree.
[...] my recent interview with Justin Bovington, CEO of Rivers Run Red, he noted that much of the initial interest in [...]
Naw, this is easy, the kits are out there, I’ve put up vids on Seesmic and YouTube. Most Augmented Reality work is around 5ish years old and starting to emerge more and more. Watch the mobile space in particular + various flash things like papervision. This will be one of the blindside technologies (I hope) that will disrupt the heck out of those that cling to 3D -so- passionately as The Absolute.
- Mobile phone to SL text messages
- Mobile phone to SL realtime chat
- Mobile phone to SL photo and video
- SL visitorstatistics and -tracking via SQL to Mobile Phone and back
- Power Point via flickr to SL Prim
- RSS feeds to SL public displays
- Room heating control/Coffee maker/… to SL and back
…
… all these (and also much more complex) applications have been already realized in 2006 and before… most of them are available as free code… its funny to see that some “innovators” use these low-level apps still for promotion…
Miki: Agreed. I think the interesting challenge for content developers and innovators is to look at new ways to aggregate and package those innovations for different audiences. Some are innovations that end up “stuck” in academic work, others are posted to SLExchange (or whatever it’s called now), others maybe end up as a youTube video.
I suppose some people are better at innovation and creating technology than packaging and selling it. Personally, I envy the people who make the cool stuff because I sure can’t! (Well, aside from an occasional rezzed prim). But what I don’t envy is the frustration in finding the best ways to package, promote, and sell those innovations to the right people at the right time.
I’m not saying that they should, necessarily. Good ideas have a way of finding their home. But what strikes me about where the Grid is at right now is that there are few “forums” in which specific applications can be combined, or put in a basket say, through distribution channels that can reach folks with the ability to invest in their use and continued development.
I’m really trying not to be overly broad. But I think we’ll see the emergence of more “aggregators” like Rivers Run Red who take innovations, build new ones, and package them all up for enterprise or brand or educational use.
I’m not claiming that Mobile Ripple is some breakthrough on its own…I don’t know enough about it frankly and as you point out I’ve seen other other mobile>>>SL apps as well. (Although the only thing I can remember where it posts simultaneously to a Web site and an in world artefact are the twitter fountains). But what strikes me about it is that it points to a new wave of opportunity that may be emerging – new channels through which content creators can see their innovations added to “packages” of tools and content sold to different audiences.
Good points Eric. In fact, the first example above DOES use Papervision which is mainly why I posted it – first use of PPV I’ve seen like that (I’m a huge fan of Papervision).
Point us in the direction of the videos you’ve posted if you have the chance.
[...] Doug Thompson at Dusan Writer’s Metaverse discusses Rivers Run Red’s Immersive Workspaces application and their latest addition of a mobile connection. Of interest is that it combines the virtual world (on a private grid using Second Life’s technology), web applications and mobile technology for collaboration and data visualization. [...]
I’m a little disapointed with them touting that 76,000 number. Half of that number consists of bots. When are they going to fix the bot problem?
http://greendots.typepad.com/green_dots/2008/11/index.html
Doug, you raise a good point about packaging technologies, whether for one world or cross-world commerce. Clearly there’s a huge opportunity for some kind of 3D mashup framework that would allow you to construct a complex scripted offering from components that you have purchased or built. Something like a 3D version of Microsoft Popfly or Yahoo Pipes that allows you to script information flows between objects, invoke their methods, etc.
In order for this tool to be really useful in a combined Second Life / Opensim / realXtend context, the scripting engine should be outside of the platforms and include features that address the issues of cross-world commerce & communication.
[...] try to make the buildings usable, where people actually inhabit them.’’ Which brings to mind an old discussion I had with Prokofy over reflexive architecture. I was reminded at the time that for most of us, [...]
[...] Landscapes I continue to carry with me a comment that Justin Bovington made when talking about Immersive Workspaces and what he sees as part of the future enterprise use of [...]
[...] Commentary on the article from Dusan Writer. [...]
ewws.
Wondering if we are seeing a new trend here.
Lately Two major news sites (Forbes and now NYT) has reported about Second Life in a serious and sober manner.
It was nice to see such a positive article about SL for once. There are so many good things to write about in terms of how SL is being used in interesting, creative ways.
The first what ?
Do you prefer this one ?
http://virtual-worlds.stonfield-inworld.com/ril-shopping-trading-goods-in-second-life-for-real/
Or this one ?
http://virtual-worlds.stonfield-inworld.com/saab-for-sale-at-ril-shopping/
Hey Mate – i gave you a vote !!!
[...] 14.11.08: Philip Rosedale: We Have the Right to Innovate [...]
[...] 03.08.08: Philip Rosedale’s Second Round: Second Life is a Terrarium, Interview with New York Times [...]
[...] 01.02.08: Second Life Users Have Too Much Time On Their Hands: Philip Rosedale [...]
[...] 08.08.08: Don’t Worry, Says Philip Rosedale: “There’s No Eye Contact in Second Life” [...]
[...] 02.08.08: Philip Rosedale: Second Life Is Better Than Lively Because It’s Like Warcraft [...]
There’s a free First-Person-Shooter available for iPhone. It’s called called “Cube”. It’s in the app store. It might give you an idea of what the iPhone hardware is capable of.
[...] I’ve written at length about how I believe that virtual worlds are symbols, working landscapes of new concepts of sociality, culture, and ideas. How they may represent a new Renaissance. [...]
Gee, and I was enjoying “Outliers”…
I don’t think anyone doubts what the current iphone can do. But to run any kind of worthy SL client would suck the battery down in 5 minutes flat. You’d have the worst of both worlds – a need for constant 3g or wi-fi data sucking, “push me up against the wall and take my lunch money” cpu and gpu use due to the graphic requirements, etc.
I have an ipod touch and I can’t imagine getting more than a 1/2 hour use out of it trying to run any kind of such 3d VW client application. It would be great. But the horrific battery life in the face of harsh performance requirements is also part of what the iphone/ipod touch is capable of, Adz.
The avatars are human shaped.
Although they do seem to lack knees…
Sorry to put a curve ball in your reading Morris. Let me know how you feel when you’re through, maybe I’m just cranky.
Wow. This is really well-written. You have put a lot of thought into this and that comes through very clearly. Have you gone over to Amazon.com and posted it in the user reviews? You really should.
I find Malcolm Gladwell’s works to be fun to flip around and read random sections, rather than read straight through from start to finish (that right there makes it a type of Web 2.0 activity – viral reading. It spawns other thoughts, and I go chasing after information in other places. Things that never occurred to me to hunt down until I read it in something like one of Gladwell’s books) It’s always interesting to see where I end up. Overextended in the Web 2.0 world, usually, and far far from where I started in Gladwell’s book! I take it all with a grain of salt, and find it immensely entertaining.
Princess Ivory
Also, another way to save that $27.99 and feel good about doing it is to support your local library. Go check the book out, and return it when are are finished! All for free. Aren’t libraries grand?!
I think I’ll just stick with my old Clarus shirt, personally. ^_^ (Wish they still made them, but poor Clarus was retired around the time OS X emerged)
http://clarus.chez-alice.fr/MUSEUM/TShirt.jpg
Yeah, I find Gladwell just way too prescriptive and not genuinely descriptive as he sees patterns where they don’t always exist, and makes everyone else then join in that game.
You’re going to feel stupid if this takes off, Dusan, and it just might.
why so hostile?
Stating an opinion is hostile? What’s the world coming to if I can’t reply to your opinion?
The iphone/ipod touch won’t last much more than a half hour under simultaneous heavy wifi and graphics load.
How is that hostile?
[...] if you haven’t read Halting State, read it. I probably should have added it to my top 5 book list, because it does one of the best jobs in print of describing a world in which the full metaverse [...]
One year ago we opened the first real mall in newBERLIN in SL:
http://www.youin3d.com/en/11-2007-alexa-die-erste-reale-mall-in-second-life
As we rebuild Berlin scale 1:1 in SL, the mall is at its coresponding adress and even a kind of geotagged.
See a Youtube from the Opening Event in the real shopping mall in Berlin, Germany:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKs3ujS-2kM
I think this vision of the 3d internet is very interesting, it partially removes the issue of avatarisation and immersion ( which so much of the mainstream seem to find problematic ). The thing I would love to see is a collision of the remote virtual and the local virtual – ie remote avatars and objects mixed up with that information overlay over real physical objects and people.
The future is now…thanks for the post, I can’t wait until the first SocialSense solutions are ready and available in shops. Regarding Halting State: have you read Rainbow’s End by Vernor Vinge?
It’s a must read for you (I own 4 of your top 5 books
). Vinge created a sci-fi thriller of cultural change that literally lives amongst the technologies that are emerging now: wearables like SocialSense, Augmented/Mixed Reality, Web3.D, Web2.0, WIKI, MMORPGs, Artifial Intelligence, QR-Codes, theme parks, longivity, human-machine interfaces, Second Life’s creation tools, Creative Commons licensing, genetic engineering…but you don’t read about tech, the book is all about the generation conflict and how these new technologies alter everything we do, psychologically and socially.
This : http://www.joystickjunkies.com/ is my favourite place for geek related clothing. I really do love walking into meetings with boring suit people wearing this stuff
@ Dizzy – hey! That was you? I was the guy in a suit.
@ Gaby – yes, I did read it. But…well, it was so horribly written I didn’t add it to the list, but yes, it covered the intellectual/peer-into-the-future ground very well, and provocatively. If only he had a better editor. Or was a real writer. HAHA. Sorry, feeling snarky, it’s Monday.
Yeah, what kind of idiot would want to virtually shop in a virtual mall, especially badly designed, buggy ones, that are only populated by statues and stand-ins for people?
Oh. Yeah.
“(play) to the strengths of each device and objects around us to their own core strengths.”
I have no idea what that means. It’s in English, yet the words are indeciperable, save for a lot of vague-sounding buzzwords.
So, in other words, sounds about right for Rivers Run Red.
Yeah, I know what you mean, I hate those bandwagon-jumpers and also-rans who rake in profits and faux-PR from book sales in the midst of some dumb hype *cough*JAMES WAGNER AU*cough*
I’d also recommend the animé Denno-Coil, as it paints a rather realistic Augmented Reality near-future. (its set around 2025ish)
Specifically with heads-up-display style glass’s as depicted here. The first epp has the lovely title (losely translated) as “The Children Of the Glass’s”
Denno Coil is fun in its own right too.
Saying that Philip Rosedale is a model CEO is kinda like saying the American auto industy is the picture of economic health.
[...] Immersive Workspaces application, and it gives a nice overview of the application itself. In my recent interview with Justin Bovington, we touched on its business use cases for the application, discussed the fact [...]
[...] didn’t comment on the recently launched Mobile Ripple application, which allows posting text (and in the future video and audio) notes to the Immersive Workspace [...]
Dusan, I read your longass rip on Gladwell and was infected with that taint when stuck today in an airport by coincidence with my boss, who was also on travel, proudly pulls out a hardcover of Outliers and I tried not to Blink but I reached a certain Tipping Point… and asked him if the book store where he got his copy had a return policy. He didn’t get it. I said, “well, i understand it is *even more* anecdotal that his previous attempts” and he said, “Ah, goooooood.” (he lost big esteem points, thinking that he is working as a manager of scientists and doesn’t know the word “anecdotal” nor does he try to let on.
I tried to swear off being passive-aggressive, but it seems this post of yours is truly baiting people to launch in a rip on philly in style dusanesque ala gladwell. Still, I try to resist the bait.
There are a dozen reasons for that group to be recognizing mr. rosedale, none of which require him to actually be a good CEO. So the first logical reason I can say is that they are recognizing some other aspect of his accomplishments other than CEOing.
While I am just as capable as anyone else to be a backseat driver to SL, I also have to admit I haven’t taken an idea and surfed it in RL as well as Philip (or Malcolm, for that matter).
So, what makes him good, is by some freak chance he had an idea and by programming and organizing the efforts and funding of others and perhaps also a matter of timing, he made it into something that is a global phenomenon.
It could be he is now, business-wise, doing a Jimmy Dean off a silicon valley deadman’s curve, but to this point, I hope you can admit, he’s accomplished a lot. Face it, in the Web 3.x VC game, the time is coming when his niche becomes a google or microsoft or gets bought by one.
The difference between sailing toward a fantasy island and sailing to avoid the rocks are so different that one may be a master at one and a failure at the other while the whole time we, watching from our SL beaches, may have not known that there was a difference in his tack.
“So, what makes him good, is by some freak chance he had an idea and by programming and organizing the efforts and funding of others and perhaps also a matter of timing, he made it into something that is a global phenomenon. ”
Fair enough, Pais, but part of Philip Linden’s job was to be as effective of an administrator and governor as he was creator and facilitator. Even during Second Life’s salad days Philip’s gained a reputation for being the exact opposite–one big tin ear to the wishes of the userbase. Part of maintaining an MMO, metaverse, virtual world, or whatever the heck you want to call it, is demonstrating that you’re an effective listener to the “unwashed masses”, and that you’re willing to put the good ideas in action. There’s a huge precedent of this with the successes, or lack thereof, of many other MMOs–Everquest, World of Warcraft, EVE Online, etc. If those nerds are gonna invest their time sitting down in mom’s basement and using you’re product, you want to make sure they feel they’re being taken care of.
That’s the “legacy” that the current Linden staff are continuing, except this time the magic’s gone, and the novelty’s wore off, and nostalgia for the good ol’ days has been replaced by an abiding resentment for the many, many tin ears of the Lindens.
Can’t any of this be done infinitely more effeciently and without any of the “metaverse” bells and whistles, with most of the current “virtual meeting”-type software that’s out there?
I don’t think most businesses that have a “virtual conferencing” need that needs to be filled will choose this product over others because it takes place over the “metaverse” or “virtual world”. They just want something that does the job.
Ok, worse than not cloning it, they’ve killed off the original.
What happened? Why is LL disposing of one of the few who seems to be really good at working with the community and getting stuff done?
With the best will in the world, I just don’t know that Second Life can support the levels of information display needed to make conferencing work. Notecards are not quite state of the art when it comes to textual information and the graphics engine does not churn out images with the resolution or speed that a business conference would require. It is just possible that there is some extraordinary implementation of Second Life running behind the firewall, but it is hard to come up with a business case for running heaven that side of the firewall and hell this side.
It’s inevitable that Linden Lab have to scale their solution to fit the technology they have, rather than to fit the needs of business, but it’s also their Achilles heel.
Two Worlds is right, none of this is compelling and little of it couldn’t be done outside SL. There could be really compelling reasons for business to implement virtual worlds – imagine hosting an annual shareholders meeting in a virtual environment. It would be open to all your shareholders irrespective of geography with no expensive or inconvenient travel and could allow real interaction – but of course SL can’t deliver that because it can’t cope with more than 40 avatars in one place at one time.
Turning SL, even partitioned annexes, into little more than virtual conference rooms is really a bit sad and desperate. Does the default version come with acrylic carpets and fluorescent lighting too?
I would love to see the conversation around enterprise adoption of virtual worlds shift away from expensive and isolating ‘corporate conferencing’ solutions, and instead emphasize features of virtual environments that aren’t already done better by existing conferencing applications, most of which you won’t find in an Immersive Workspace.
For new users, the hook most often sets when they realize they can meet, network and share their creations with people from anywhere in the world; especially when those people come from other professions, other organizations – even other countries. That’s what makes SL so powerful and liberating. Sure, there’s a learning curve – but those are the kinds of benefits that outweigh the challenges, and keep you coming back for more. I just don’t think you’ll achieve as many ‘aha!’ moments while watching powerpoints with co-workers inside a prefab corporate headquarters on an isolated private corporate sim, even if you can access it from the web, or use your outlook calender to schedule meetings, or whatever.
I think it should be made clear, for organizations who don’t know any better, that you don’t need the keys to an expensive Immersive Workspace to enjoy everything Second Life is already good for, because all of those things are free. The power of Second Life – even for enterprise, believe it or not – will always live on the regular grid. Once you get enough employees on-board who really ‘get it’ and if, for whatever reason, they start to feel like Second Life is useful for discussing trade secrets and private corporate information, then its time to invest in an Immersive Workspace (or, a free opensim…), but be careful not to put the cart before the horse.
It’s been a long time since he *was* a CEO – and he seemed glad to be quit of it. Did I miss something?
It really irritates me when people wait this long before filing suit if they think their IP is being violated/stolen/whatever.
One first thought is that LL might be better prepared to handle any legal claims, but you have to wonder about things like OpenSim. First off, who do you sue, and then if you DO sue them, how can they afford to defend themselves?
I mostly hate suits like this because any reasonable human, or even a total idiot for that matter, can see that systems for “Enabling Users to Interact in a Virtual Space” are such a broad freaking concept that’s so obvious in nature that someone is bound to come up with an implementation of it, and that in fact a LOT of someones are bound to.
Patenting a fundamentally obvious concept like “letting people interact in a virtual space” is just absurd, if in fact they have such a patent that can be enforced against things like SL and other VW’s.
Wait…. they think they have patent over any 3D environment that uses client-server chat? First thing in the morning I’m going to patent e-mail.
There is so much prior art for this, it will be impossible for them to enforce this. Just look at the long running MUDs and BBS software back in the dial-up era.
Someone tried to patent the Soviet standard 0.5l beer bottle.
It didn’t work.
It’s okay, Al Gore tried to patent the Internet.
And does anyone remember CyberTown? Bet that beats out these goofs.
Recoculous. Sadly money is bound to be wasted on this. And time, too.
Wouldn’t this just as likely extend to (ex:) WoW? But fat chance taking on /that/ lot, so no surprise they’d target the lower hanging fruit.
Keystone,
Nice idea, but with the amount of porn and filth in the public areas of Second Life, corporates are not going to be happy unleashing this on their employees. HR issues and litigation!
Also you’re being naive, corporations are interested in these spaces for their own employees.
Creating an employee virtual network is of real benefit to today’s organizations. Virtual worlds give them something more than is offered by conference calls, 2D file sharing and the horror of video conference calls. I’m surprised you can’t see this? Surely this is why you’re advocating Second Life in the first place?
Mark Kingdom has set the stall out on this issue, we’re going to have Consumer Worlds, Corporate Worlds and Education Worlds. You’re still thinking Second Life, we’re moving beyond that.
Also, the nature of business is discussion, there is a real need for security and encryption. Something, as you know, is lacking on the consumer version of Second Life.
I do though think corporates will miss out if they don’t engage with the residents of Second Life.
Therefore, why not do both, have a secure place for business, also if you want to engage, open a public sim.
This will mean you can have the best of both worlds.
As much as I know the market needs to explore this, and there are probably some sincerely interested in it, I believe the whole ‘workspaces’ (in its current incarnation) concept is an utter red herring.
By trying to replicate the weakest parts of the Real World workspace, these early (mis-) interpretations of what ‘work in the metaverse’ are discarding (without a second thought) the unique advantages of the virtual world.
The result, of course, is something like a car retrofitted for marine use – even if it works…you’re left wondering “why”.
Which finally ends up as “so what?”
But it’s still early…there is much much more to come, friends.
fortunatly there are some european level laws that protect companies for thoses “late” claims.
Europe rules Sacha. Best patent laws, best identity laws, best IP laws. Well, as far as you describe it anyways, I frankly don’t know enough about it. But how many virtual world platforms have been developed and are hosted in Europe – the issue here isn’t what’s happening in Europe, the issue is that most of the VW development (aside from the Asian worlds, which often seem like a massive beast of their own with woefully little cross-over) doesn’t HAPPEN in Europe, it happens in the US, or Australia maybe (I’m thinking Mycosym). If the patent lawyers start their path to destruction, with all the litigation costs, back room license deals, out-of-court settlement – I mean really, what a mess.
I’m sure it would be useful if we all lived in the Eden that is Europe, but for whatever reason that Eden doesn’t seem to me like the site of innovation, although sure, there’s peripheral examples. I can’t help wondering whether there isn’t a connection there somewhere – whether innovation doesn’t flow to where innovations are protected in different ways. The problem in the US is that like copyright protection, it has tilted for far too long in the direction of corporations and their interests over a) innovation and b) the rights of individuals to generate ideas without needing a team of lawyers to check that “blog commenting” hasn’t been patented.
Just some guy,
Yes, like a letter is better than email? Why bother with email, hell I can write it on paper and give it to you. While we’re at it, why don’t we just go back to rotary telephones, get rid of all our cellphones?
Virtual Worlds, are part of our world now. This is not a “so what?” moment, the uses and possibilities are endless. They do though need some basic functionality, like document sharing and conference facilities. This give companies a good starting point.
Keystone,
You mean shift the spot light back to your Second Life development company, Crescendo Design company? Or back to your architecture project? So you can offer companies your own expensive solutions, in other words so you can build them a house or office in Second Life? This is surely what this is all about, you’re unhappy that the Linden Lab have created this product?
We have a saying in Holland, the seagull follows the fisherman looking to steal his food.
We’re looking forward to this solution. We have already pitched this in to our clients. Seems a shame you feel the need to continually bash it in the blogs. It slaps of jealousy.
@ david crespo
Your suggestion that ‘corporates’ will be able to ‘unleash’ Second Life on their employees is a whole lot more naive than suggesting that they gain a better understanding of the full spectrum Second Life offers before investing in an Immsersive Workspace that most employees will ignore. The only success stories I hear start with a few evangelists who build internal support by proving value over time. The technology is so young, and the learning curve so steep (as cited by the Standard) that SL isn’t something that can just be handed down from above as a matter of corporate deployment. It sets up failed expectations, and eventually another reason for people (and the media) to reject SL. I would much rather focus on the truly unique features SL is already good at.
Game-changing and unprecedented innovation lies at every turn in SL, yet the best we can do is frame it as a better conferencing tool?
Its like going to the jungle and being amazed by its complex diversity and splendor, then isolating one plant in a vacuum-sealed petri dish and taking it back to the office. Granting one company the rights to call that petri-dish ‘jungle’ and sell private access to it for top dollar is what concerns me.
This is terrible. Who are these guys? I do a lot of work in virtual worlds and do not have a clue who they are. Wait.. hmm, now we do, crappy PR tactic worked, but wait, I am sure to never go to or use their vw.
It’s not just one company, that ONE company is Linden Lab, they surely have the right to sell their products as they see fit? They have, from what I can tell, purchased the rights to sell the product. This is not Rivers Run Red selling it, Linden Lab are selling it. The jungle is still owned by Linden Lab.
From what I understand, Linden Lab is creating an affiliate system for this solution. Surely those who are interested can now sell it? Why are you always missing this vital bit of information off your rants?
[...] to my recent posts on the launch of Immersive Workspaces (IW) by Rivers Run Red and Linden Lab (my interview with Justin, the launch of Mobile Ripple, and the Industry Standard’s review of the application). The [...]
@ Brian – seems to me that a move like this is grasping at whatever straws you can find to stay alive. As in, no one knows who worlds.com is, they can’t actually get a business going, so let’s look in the library to see what we can either fire sale off or throw to the lawyers. I’m not even sure that the end game is law suits, it might instead to be gobbled up by those folks who run around sucking up little companies with dusty patents that they can turn into revenue streams through litigation.
And yeah, Worlds.com will hardly be on anyone’s thrill list – I wonder if their clients know about this? Intriguing that they have Aerosmith as a client hahaha.
Twinity is German Based and at the Conference in London, to my surprise, there seemed to be quite a lot other German based ones. (But less ‘evolved’, flash mainly, and looking more like Google Lively than SL.)
Isn’t it possible worlds.com sees this as a way to get their name out there, under the ‘there’s no things as bad press’ motto? it definitely is the first time you’re mentioning them…
Wow, I always wondered what the big picture looks like.
@Vint – hmm, I should remove them like the old SL trademark days and call them the “World That Must Not Be Named”.
Hello Livelyzens,
My name is dreamer2032, and I am a ninth grader at Westwood Schools in Camilla, Georgia. I am part of the Digiteen Dream Team, which is a group of fellow students that have banded together to stop Google from deleting Lively. We love Lively! We used it to teach the seventh graders at our school about digital citizenship, and it was a huge success. They loved it! We have written blogs, made a Lively protest room, and even made a song about the reason that Google should keep Lively. Lively has done so much for our class, and we will not let it be deleted without a fight. We support you in all your attempts to save Lively. Keep Alively!
worlds.com was in the 3dchat worlds biz since 1994.
they predate Cybertown, which was sponsored by blaxxun, who then was blacksun, whose original passport application for 3d chat i believe shipped after the original worlds.com client.
There were a few 3d chat systems that did what the patents claim from the 1994-6 period.
And while im relegated to old man of factual history for you all:).. google COMPTONS and Multimedia Patents for the enivitable outcome of this “news story”.
I saw a post already from someone suggesting the same.
Worlds.com offered the first 3d chat like world with avatars that wasnt a game per say. Theres no doubt LL copied much from them, but the broad claims made on these type of patents should have founded patent reform in 1994 after the “Multimedia” mess and claims… but that would have been asking people to know and remember history..;)
c3
I think there is a problem for education too. A few gifted individuals can reach critical mass but the solutions for the majority at an institutional level are currently too hard to capture, package and differentiate.
For universities, the need to be seen outweighs the need to be safe but how hard is it to temporarily close an island anyway (and isn’t it Qwaq BTW)?
You mean OpenSpace. Welcome to the confusion.
wow, there are 152,093 Gossipgirls
There are more Allen’s (for now). http://slnamewatch.com/last_name_Allen.html
100 All-time most overloaded last names:
http://slnamewatch.com/index.php?action=list_records&status_filter=all&sort_order=DESC&order_by=usage_count
Thanks, Dusan. I was listening to all of the doom and gloom predictions about the economy of Second Life with great puzzlement. There’s a little dip in the numbers? Wow. Does anyone realize what’s going on out here in the real world? It’s getting scary.
But get this: since my partner was laid off at the beginning of September(luxury travel industry isn’t doing so well) our SL spending has actually increased a little.
Why is that? Well, there are fascinating things to do and see and buy in SL, and even if they cost hundreds of Lindens, that’s less than the cost of parking in Seattle—heck, it’s less than the cost of the gas to drive to Seattle and back.
So we are spending more time at home with our laptops instead of out with our credit cards, and a slight increase in spending in SL is the result. I can’t imagine we’re the only ones doing this—funny that the new concurrency records have occurred smack in the middle of a major RL economic downturn.
I wonder if everyone spending pennies an evening for entertainment in SL instead of dollars an evening in RL is mostly offsetting the economic damage done by the OpenSpace issue.
Python, Ruby, and …. Pearl ?
Well, obviously we’d prefer to see the numbers going up rather than declining. The losses recently wiped most of the gains through 2008 – and that doesn’t seem like a good thing.
I don’t disagree, Tateru, however in the context of the wider economy a “not so good thing” can seem like a bloody brilliant amazing thing. Having said that, I’m not all rose-colored glasses – I think the first quarter of 09 will be more telling when tiers come due and businesses and individuals need to decide whether to maintain their investments in-world. For the time being, against the backdrop of everything else, I don’t feel discouraged by flat numbers.
Adz – oops, I always try to catch that, thanks!
I hate the name chooser tool LL has implemented. It cannot possibly be accurate to the names already chosen. You have to try and try and TRY to get the last name you want to show up on the list, and it’s really not believable.
I don’t know what they are doing, but I don’t believe it really is a working check against already registered names. A broken check, maybe. Not a working one.
Dusan, I’m somewhat inclined to sit on your side of the fence on this one. Once the non-economic cycle-driven behavior of abandoning the Open Spaces subsides, and once the vocally aggrieved souls depart Second Life for places unknown (and probably return when they learn that OpenSim is crash-tastic and even more sparsely populated than SL), I have a feeling that the SL community will just keep motoring on. It’s a resilient bunch.
One thing I’ve picked up on in conversation with other avis is the theme that SL is a place of emotional refuge. In chaotic times life these, you can’t overstate the value of having a “safe place” like SL. People will pay for that.
The sky isn’t falling on the SL economy. If the Lab can keep the competitors at bay, it should be able to weather this storm. Of course, they would have to cut back on the goofball policy pronouncements that put the residents’ knickers in a knot. Not sure that’s possible.
[...] – Warcraft didn’t make sense, after all, too hard to bring in custom content. We already posted on the Vancouver Police Department using SL as a recruitment mechanism, and we’re pretty sure [...]
I have to agree with Doreen, the RL economic crisis has a good impact on things like SL. If you can’t spend lots of money anymore on expensive RL fun like going out, to the movies, travel – you turn to cheaper entertainment. And even with the ridiculous land prices, SL still is cheap entertainment, compared to other things.
On the other side you can’t just look at what was lost because of the OpenSpace debacle – you also have to look at what wasn’t gained because of it. Not only did SL lose roughly 2000 regions in november, the actual loss is bigger because SL didn’t gain the roughly 1000 new regions that would have been added without that debacle.
In other news…
Apple are busy patenting ideas for a 3D (or ‘multi-dimensional’) user interface. For what purpose (other than patent-squatting) it is not yet clear…
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/12/11/apple_working_on_3d_mac_os_x_user_interface_images.html
Ewwww. I was a girl gamer, when I was very young. It was always just me and a pack of boys. The dynamic shown in that video is both familiar to me and very, very creepy. Not a chance I would ever go back to that again.
I was reading my local newspaper on Saturday and they have a memorable quotes of the week in it. And one quote attributed to an anonymous moenymarket guy was “the slightly down is the new up”. It made me smile because with all the RL bad news lately at least someone can still find time to try and brighten their day. And thinking about what you have written here and what that other guy said, then while things maybe not to good in SL right now for everyone there is a little bit bright still in SL. So thats good I think.
Clearly, Blue Mars’ developers do not want the .edu community in-world.
User-created content is essential to the best builds I’ve seen in SL. I’d hoped that someone would develop an SL-alt that paired user content with stability, cross-platform support, and system reqs that allow easy access from student laptops.
Reckon I’ll still wait and keep investing time and energy in SL, warts and all.
It’s weird you posted those two vids Dusan as I’m currently studying both intensely. The other day I played a jazzy guitar version of The Rainbow Connection at a gig at the Toys for Tots benefit at Music Academy in Second Life. Whilst immediately making me become a 5 year old kid, Paul Williams writing in that song somehow captures the essence of dreaming and creating something that may well be ahead of its time socially. The Linden video captures an optimism and sense of togetherness and hope which I have missed in Second Life recently. Sometimes it feels like we need that unity in order to get to the other side of this rainbow.
Aww wow. Thanks for sharing that Dizzy….wish I had been at the performance!
oh! i can see my house from here ^^
Dizzy –
..that ‘missing’ optimism and sense of togetherness is alive and well but it has been napping lately
***DING DING !! * wake up time !!****
JenzZa
[...] OK, I think I have it in for this guy. Seriously. I need help. A friend brought a copy of Outliers to dinner last night. I mean….what a way to get the conversation off to a rocking start. [...]
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » Student Nurses in Scotland turn to Second Life [...]
Malcolm Gladwell might be reading from the Captain Obvious playbook – but his success so far seems to be based on the fact that what might be patently obvious to you or I isn’t, apparently, obvious at all to the people who have been buying his books.
I can’t help but yawn through a lot of it, but Captain Obvious needs to speak up – because for a lot of people, the obvious really just isn’t.
That said, I don’t spend money on his books myself.
Oh, Dusan. I’m so sorry. It is hard to have a popular writer—and that’s all that Gladwell actually is—spouting nonsense that gets under your skin, all out in the public sphere all the time.
The one that sets me off is John Grey–every time the man opens his mouth I want to slap him.
self help pap for suits in times of failure.
obviously!:)
As a Gladwell fan for years, I’ve been very skeptical about this review of yours, but I’ve waited until Amazon shipped my copy of the book, so I could check for myself. It arrived yesterday and I wolfed it down in one sitting.
here’s what his ENTIRE new book is about:
Depending on when and where you were born, you might have a better chance at being successful.
Wow, did you miss the point.
Outliers is about the fabled “American dream” – the notion that anybody can become a success in America, as a president or as a millionaire. The book debunks this notion and tries to force USA (and the rest of the world) to take a realistic view of the importance of the environment and the way it’s mostly extremely hostile to success aspirants – except in certain, very rare, circumstances. As always, Gladwell tries to make us question our pre-conceptions – and, as always, he succeeds.
And, yes, the book is not about the perception of success. But it was never intended to be..
Congrats!
Will curiously await what this new energy will stir up in the coming year…
Skip Intro….
Yup, congratulations all – sounds like a perfect fit…
It is a fact that Flash is really cool for getting rich media content but also requires a huge loading time. That it is why, I personally do not prefer. Moreover it is not so SEO friendly solution. However Google can index Flash pages include the proper xml file. Hope they will not put a huge flash movie onto the intro page. In my opinion the size of index page must be below 100k. I am really awaiting the new site but haven’t seen a pixel of it so far.
I’m not sure that Gladwell’s cornered the market on stating the patently obvious. I’ll chime in with Tateru in y own way: “obvious” is not always to most.
Congratulations.
Iyan –
I absolutely agree with you that Gladwell sets out to challenge our misconceptions. For sure, that’s what he DOES. For folks, however, who challenge their own on a continuing basis, I’d recommend catching him in the New Yorker maybe, avoiding the book and buying, say, Nudge instead.
It’s interesting because David Brooks covers this nicely in the New York Times today. He first agrees with you:
“Gladwell’s important new book, “outliers”, seems at first glance to be a description of exceptionally talented individuals. But in fact, it’s another book (by Gladwell) about deep patterns. Exceptionally successful people are not lone pioneers who created their own success, he argues. They are the lucky beneficiaries of social arrangements…
As usual, Gladwell intelligently captures a larger tendency of thought – the growing appreciation of the power of cultural patterns, social contagions, memes. His book….could lead policy makers to finally reject policies built on the assumption that people are coldly rational utility-maximizing individuals.”
(Again, read Nudge instead, it’s rooted in far better evidence and is actually ACTIONABLE).
So, sure, what Gladwell presents and argues is important to know, and understand. It debunks any myths out there about ’superstars’ who are self-made men and women.
Brooks, after giving Gladwell his due, goes on to say, however:
“I can’t help but feel that Gladwell and others who share his emphasis are getting swept away by the coolness of the new discoveries. They’ve lost sight of the point at which the influence of social forces ends and the influence of the self-initiating individual begins.
Most successful people begin with two beliefs: the future can be better than the present, and I have the power to make it so. They are often showered by good fortune, but relied at crucial moments upon achievements of individual will….
Control of attention is the ultimate individual power. People who can do that are not prisoners of the stimuli around them. They can choose from the patterns in the world and lengthen their time horizons…It leads to resilience, the ability to persevere with an idea even when all the influences in the world say it can’t be done…
If Gladwell can reduce William Shakespeare to a mere product of social forces, I’ll buy 25 more copies of “Outliers” and give them away in Times Square.”
Which…truly, is my point.
AND my point about the connection to virtual worlds and emerging technologies. We can take on Gladwell’s beliefs that the forces of these things are stimuli that are influencing us, and hope that we are in the right place and the right time. Think of it as “we will thrive or survive because the Lindens make it so.” That, really, is the Gladwell way.
Or, we can say “Regardless of the world about me, I have beliefs, I have perseverance, I have art, I have passion, I have the focus…and I will “choose from the patterns in the world and lengthen their time horizons”.
My reaction is similar to Brooks. First, if you want to examine the profound influence of the cultural contexts in which we live, there are better sources with better researched insights. Second, examining those forces while neglecting to examine the individual decisions and perseverance that comes into play IN SPITE the influences around us makes us, I feel, dangerously reliant on the external as a measure of our success and happiness, when it’s our heart that counts.
coolness, D!
I’ve posted (on the blog) a screenshot of the new design we’re testing! Thanks!
You make some excellent points Dusan. Flash loading times are certainly a concern and we are being thoughtful about how and where we use it.
Many of our residents are already logged in when they visit http://www.secondlife.com so they bypass the homepage entirely and those deeper pages will not be Flash heavy, so existing users shouldn’t be inconvenienced. The purpose of the home page is to introduce potential new users to the wonders of Second Life which cannot be expressed with a 2D static image. There is so much that we want to show people about what exists inside this wondrous world! If you imagine this as the first part of a rich and immersive new user experience based on the concepts of a wide variety of pathways (verbs), you can start to see where we might be going with the first hour experience.
This is one of many things we are working on to make the experience better for new and existing residents alike. There is more ahead. Thank you!
[...] Edit: Since this post, the Lab seems to have listened to the community and provided a screen shot of the new test home page. See it and comments here. [...]
So, it’s not just a lousy introduction and misrepresentative of the product, but the proposed home page is a lame copy of a popular product?
Wonderful. (Vomit)
it looks really bad! i hope they don’t go with it!
ugh. The criticisms of this design is completely predictable, and IMO, completely off the mark. Everybody is predisposed to declaring this a fail, I guess because everyone wants to be justified in saying that LL can’t do anything right and Big Spaceship doesn’t “get SL” and has no business designing the interface.
So its derivative? So what. *Every* design is derivative. Every one. Design, especially commercial design, exists within its time and echoes current trends and styles or else its not timely. Web sites are not designed for the ages. They’re designed for the here and now, and in 3 years when this looks dated and stale, they should be designing a new look. And, anyway, its a grid of images. Who owns the rights on grids?
And “Basic Rules of Design”? Are you kidding? I have a Rule of Design too. “Those who quote ‘design rules’ should never be allowed anywhere close to a design in progress”. Rules serve only one purpose: to be waved around by non-designers when they want to reject a design out of hand.
There are no “Rules of Design”. A design serves its purpose or it doesnt. THAT is the only rule that matters.
In the rush to cry “Fail”, everyone’s completely missing what this design actually does really well.
The flat black actually works very nicely, despite “rules” to the contrary, by receding to the background and focusing attention where it is supposed to be, the pictures, which look like windows into a world. There are so many possibilities and things to do in this world that they had to be arranged in a grid which is still too big for the page and has to overflow to the right and left. That’s how much stuff there is in SL.
Someone also said “Never horizontal scroll. Always vertical scroll.” Another one of those “design rules” which is just rubbish. Again, design choices have to suit the purpose and the message. For me, horizontal scrolling conveys “open”, “panoramic”, and “unconstrained”. All qualities that Second Life should be communicating. Vertical scrolling suggests sequentialness, and lots of stuff I have to read through.
And that’s without even knowing what kind of interactivity there’ll be on the live page. Who knows what clicking the menu items or the verb boxes will do? Or what’s beyond the page to the right and left?
Remember, the one and only purpose of this page design is to entice the new visitor to click deeper into the site and learn more. Now there’s no telling how well the live site will perform and if it will be annoy people away with too much Flash gimmickry. That’s a very strong possibility.
But, based solely on the layout of this static page, I say it works. If I was visiting this page for the very first time, having never heard of Second Life, I would be intrigued enough to look deeper, and I think many many other people would too. And THAT is the only measure of success that counts.
Ok, whatever. I’ll tell you why it doesn’t work for me. It’s the HOME page. THE landing spot. Not a linked page. And your eyes don’t know where to rest. You go left, then right, looking for an edge, a boundary, and they aren’t there. Combined with the black background, it hurts my eyes to look at long enough to figure out what they are trying to say.
And did you even read Crap’s mention of the verbs they chose? Stupid. I don’t think anyone’s found those meaningful.
If you didn’t already know what SL was, this page wouldn’t help you one bit. As for the predictable criticism stuff, I was neutral on it, and in fact was hoping they’d come up with something nice and useful. I have nothing against LL, if anything I probably come down on their side of things more often than not, just because incessant whining by the residents irritates me.
THIS. SUCKS. It has nothing to do with anyone wanting anyone else to fail. They failed without our wishes.
I think the eye naturally moves to the single empty box on the page. The one that contains the main message, “Join the internet’s largest user-created blah blah blah”
“And your eyes don’t know where to rest. You go left, then right, looking for an edge, a boundary, and they aren’t there.”
That’s the whole point. There is no boundary! That’s why the thing SCROLLS to right and left!
[...] also somewhat reminds me of a post I did ages ago titled “The Empty World.” Posts about lag I leave to [...]
We know it scrolls. It’s still NOT a home page design. It’s a photo album design.
It conveys no cohesive message, but many fragmented ones, and the user has no idea which one to look at first. You’re looking at it as someone who already understands SL. You’re not looking at it from the point of view of someone who needs one simple statement answer to the questions : what and why.
What bothers me are the keywords, “dance, shop, play, learn, flirt” !!!! OMG…. that ought to destroy all credibility for business and education. Perhaps the Lindens are trying to drive business and education out of the SL Grid and into the pricey Immersive Spaces platform.
The design doesn’t matter if the first impression is that SL if a frivilous environment. Hope MY CEO doesn’t see something like this…bye bye budget!!
[...] And for those who missed it, here it is again, and don’t miss the comments on my previous post. [...]
I’m not a huge fan of the home page… but that aside, even if they get people in… chances are a good percentage of them would end up in an (un)welcoming area and end up feeling bullied, harrassed or disgusted and will leave.
I sometimes do self imposed penance at the (un)welcome areas to help those in genuine need – and I really hate being there.
Perhaps if Linden care so much about new users, they’ll make the welcome areas a little more like the Destination Station (help people find and move on to interesting spaces). Or maybe they’ll dedicate some staff to these areas to assist.
Linden relies heavily on residents to mentor and assist which is all fine and well, but if they care about their bottom line – perhaps they want to make sure people pass go and decide to collect L$300… instead of giving up after being in an (un)welcoming area for a little too long.
The home page may be the first point … but who survives in SL seems to strongly hinge on who has contacts to help them out of the (un)welcoming area; who has the ability to search (and find somewhere that makes them want to go on) or who happens to by chance meet someone friendly and helpful.
If they’d fix these entry points, I’m quite sure they’d have a lot more people stay in SL after they’ve joined instead of giving it up as an awful experience in banality.
Very well said
A lot of good thought there, Dusan. The thing I’m wondering about is why the SL blogosphere calls for LL to “change this” and “improve that” and then when they begin to do something they immediately start getting criticized.
It’s obvious they are laying down the cash to try to make some improvements. I’ve seen Big Spaceship’s work and even watched some of their process via lynda.com. I highly doubt this is some thrown together job. Isn’t it a little early for anyone to trashing to whole effort when it has just begun? Is there NO hope at all? Personally, when I read who was involved in this project, I was actually excited.
Busting on LL is easy…hundreds are doing it. I think the real challenge for SL bloggers would be to write about all the really good…really cool things that go on every single day.
I’m very interested in what all you guys have to say, but I have to tell you…you all collectively paint a dismal picture. Perhaps that is part of LL’s problem.
I’m not a Linden. I’m not a “fanboi”. I’m just a guy who really enjoys his SL…warts, bloggers and all.
Luke:
You make an interesting point but what you seem to be critiquing here is critique itself. Which is fine. I decry negativity myself much of the time. YOU may not be a fanboi but I am, if by a fanboi you mean someone who is enamored of something in ways that may not even be particularly rational, who looks up or admires something even when it has warts, or is able to turn those warts into beauty spots.
If, in general, you take issue with the ’slant’ I give to coverage of Second Life I’d love to hear. In general I celebrate, (in small and ineffective ways maybe but regardless), the culture, residents, projects, application and tools of Second Life.
That doesn’t give me any MORE right to criticize the new home page design than someone else – everyone can. Criticism is generally considered healthy and productive if there are constructive elements to it.
I’m assuming that neither Big Spaceship nor M nor the folks at the Lab are so sensitive that their feelings will be hurt or they’ll deviate from their approach, which strikes me as quite sanely process-oriented, metric-driven, and based on some fairly significant talents.
I have written before about the improvements that the Lab has been making. I’ve written before about contributions that Residents have made to improving the platform. I’ve even put my own cash on the table to try to help facilitate improvements through the UI design contest. Again, these don’t allow me to make constructive comments any more than any one else should be allowed to, but I’m hardly one to over-react, or maybe I am and am just delusional about it.
Regardless, you’re not actually criticizing my comments, you’re criticizing, well, criticism.
I never SAID that the home page was thrown together. I never SAID that Big Spaceship did a hack job. I never said there was no hope.
I was VERY excited when M announced that an outside firm was looking at reworking the home page and the client.
And while I take issue with the design ITSELF, my issue is actually broader, which is my disappointment that this opportunity was wasted: the opportunity for us to rally around a re-articulated vision for Second Life, for us to understand how SL can be an ennobling, powerful platform as expressed in how it is presented to the potential new user.
It may be just a home page but this was a chance for M to demonstrate the big ideas driving what has been a very focused effort to improve the experience: both of new users and as a reminder to residents of why we came in the first place.
It’s not the home page that bothers me, it’s the lost opportunity to reaffirm our faith in the big ideas that drive SL and virtual worlds in general for that matter.
You can have great process, you can focus group and A/B test and have the best design firm in the world, but the effectiveness of all of that process is correlated to the strength of the strategy, mission, and vision on which it’s based.
If “immediately being criticized” and “part of LL’s problem” is passionate Residents attempting to give voice to our collective insights, then maybe it’s time to head off to Sony Home where, as far as I know, the platform owners don’t ask for it in the first place.
I agree 100% Dusan well said
I hadn’t noticed the disappearance of “Your World, Your Imagination” because that really hasn’t been the spirit of the way things have been run recently.
As ugly as the blackness is, at least they’re being honest with that bit.
Dusan:
Well, I guess I unloaded here in your area making sweeping generalizations. I apologize for that. I didn’t mean to make you accountable for everyone. Please don’t take offense. If you already did, please accept my apology.
I just get so frustrated when I cycle through my Google Reader and hear one bash after another, when my experience with SL has been an overall great one. I see a lot of good on every level.
I know what processes I go through with my own work…the numerous meetings, IPTs, iterations, and testing. I guess I just wish we would hold off a bit until we see a bigger picture. I think calling this a wasted opportunity may be a little bit premature without more insight into the entire experiment (which we probably won’t get).
In any case, thanks for letting me throw my thoughts out there.
Nothing new.
Except for a few MMO/VR Worlds/Game companies, almost NO VR worlds platforms/”consumer service ” companies have a CCO or even know what they are or do.
c3
looks like xlent team!
Asking for feedback on a design was asking for trouble, it’s the age old one man’s meat is another man’s poison situation.
Asking for feedback on something you’ve already decided to run with was even sillier than asking for feedback on the design in the first place.
This is a marketing exercise, if it attracts new residents then great. I’m not particularly fussed what they do but the word “create” is very much missing at the moment.
Luke I much prefer seeing positive articles too but generally my mailing lists cover education, there’s a lot of positive uses of education but it’s mainly aimed at the education market, rather than general SL users. If you see something great then shout about it
[...] not unlike Spore. And in fact, I wrote about Spore some time ago, saying: The point is to get potential users to invest in their avatars FIRST. [...]
[...] Life Comes Home In my last post, I expressed my frustration with the missed opportunities in the new Second Life home page design. [...]
[...] Gladwell is dangerously depleting our supply of memes at a time of economic [...]
Dusan, you shared with me your idea of Second Life as a big city a few weeks ago, a center of creativity and productivity, and I thought you made a compelling case. But this would all be more convincing to me if, using your words from the previous post, you could distill it all into a Big C Creative slogan, on the order of “Just Do It” or “Your World, Your Imagination.”
Maybe some of your readers want to take a stab. All I can think of is “That’s life in the big city,” which is what my older brother would tell me when he was stealing my candy and toys. So for me, at least, its not an uplifting slogan.
*chuckle*
WOW!
I had noticed that “Your World, Your imagination” had disappeared a while back and I remember feeling disappointed but I forgot all about it. Reading this article reminded me how important that mantra was to me, not just the text, but the spirit.
That being said I do like the idea of more pictures and more variety. Visual is good, it’s hard enough to explain SL, much better to just show it. I am not a big fan of Flash websites though, especially when I need to find something in a hurry.
Nice writeup, it got me thinking.
I’ll keep this short — you are cranky.
Another great article Dusan I am blown away at the mindmap Jeff created and glad to have him, you and the ThinkBalm community putting real thought into virtual world applications.
more immersive camels….
Um. And? Based on your blog you’re at least slightly narcissistic. Maybe we’d get along better than you think.
[...] there’s a wider cultural shift to communities-based approaches to wellness. As much as I dislike Malcolm Gladwell, for example, his book Outliers makes the (obvious) point that successful people aren’t self [...]
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse (Canada) – ThinkBalm, the Immersive Internet and Collaborative Culture. “A while back I was invited to something called the “ThinkBalm Innovation Community” and [...]
Interesting subject, thanks for posting this.
For me, Second Life is most useful for cultivating a lot of “thin” relationships with several people, similar to online social networks in general. You can quickly get exposed and connected to lots of people around a shared interest or passion.
But for deeper connections to people, I find Second Life to be mostly unsatisfying. I’ve certainly become good friends with people that I have met through SL, but this has been spurred by offline real world interactions over time, not just in-world.
I find that when I am feeling lonely, that being in Second Life can make me feel worse, not better. YMMV.
Rikomatic – I think that’s a common experience. I often wonder whether it has to do with the richness of the interactions, or is a product of ‘geography’. Not to bring up ‘empty sim syndrome’ but one of the things I find is that the sensation of looking at the wonderful work of the artists and builders in world can also be an experience in loneliness.
I’m actually proposing, I suppose, two things: one, that virtual worlds are a platform on which you can form community, often geared towards specific tasks or functions, events, or settings. Warcraft, even, and guild raids, say. Or in-world dances, music shows, events. And second, that it can be a site of expression which helps to give us the tools for articulating our sense of self and place.
What it also shows is that their ideal resident is human. This was supposed to show what SL is about? What about all the communities in SL based around non humans?
I applause LL for trying to revamp and attract punters making it easier for them to join/assimilate into the societies but they should be trying to celebrating all the aspects of SL.
*shrugs* i am still waiting for a newbie out of the box furry av… seemed it was missed when they remade the others.
I think the idea is great to analyze and make suggestions.
Here are some from me:
* Pop-up notifier when an avatar puts on something that makes his ARC go into red.
* Enhanced texture library -> buy a few tons of textures, quality textures at least the quality of Halflife 2 or Far Cry or Doom 3. (Esp. the first two is everywhere in SL anyway.) Encourage people using this with features like… see below.
* Color-code sims on map based on the load it would put on your machine. Maybe people will forgot the stupid 1K textures.
* Background pre-loading for simulators -> Have another option of tp-ing. You could chat/etc. for 1 more minute before this ‘new tp’-option would grey out.
* An intermittent black box would be cool too even if I know it will never happen. (A box where you and everyone who is just in the progress of tp-ing appears as an untextured silhoutte.) OK, this is fantasy.
GTG now.
Hi Dusan, great post! From my view, there are several ways one might approach loneliness.
First, is to choose NOT to do anything about one’s loneliness, or rather to accept it, even if momentary. Inside that acceptance it can be a cause to its ending. Or another way of putting it, is to just BE with it, which may eventually reveal the source of ‘it’. Albeit, intimately, in friendships or collectively.
Furthermore, having to find a reason for it is not necessary. To be what you aren’t is to be what you wish. In other words, to not be lonely means to do things that are a cause to others not being lonely. For it’s when we step outside ourselves we become or enter into the collective. After all we are one; essentially, our ego gets in the way of this sense. Offering up ourselves to others brings it back, the trick is to do it in such a way as to not have any expectation of its return.
Moreover, on the subject of artists, and to address your last comment on your post; You are obviously very perceptive. Maybe more than you realize, but I wholeheartedly agree with your comment
“I’m actually proposing, I suppose, two things: one, that virtual worlds are a platform on which you can form community, often geared towards specific tasks or functions, events, or settings. Warcraft, even, and guild raids, say. Or in-world dances, music shows, events. And second, that it can be a site of expression which helps to give us the tools for articulating our sense of self and place.”
To fishtail on this, and take it perhaps deeper, one can relate it to our soul. From an artists perspective, mostly unconscious, and by nature, a true expression of creativity doesn’t follow analysis of who we are or whatever. What does or is a primary cause to expressing something artistically, is almost always from the point of view of suffering. Some refer to this as “A Dark Night of the Soul” (Thomas Moore’s book “Dark Nights of the Soul: A Guide to Finding Your Way Through Life’s Ordeals) is probably my personal second best book I’ve ever read. In it he relates how even some artists choose to stay inside that suffering, whether it be loneliness or whatever. The point is, an artist wants to be recognized for his/her ability to express what we/they have felt or are feeling. It’s inside this need of recognition, where being social, and relating to others, that has the artist step out of their norm. This is all well and good, and no matter what our profession in life is, everything is a choice in this respect. Our plights in life might seem unfair, not our fault..etc., etc.. But, they happen, and can send us down deep into what feels dark, alone, even depressing or even hopeless.
What I’ve discovered, inside of Second Life, is the commonality of our ordeals in RL. This has helped me understand that I’m not alone; not to confuse this with loneliness. Even when there are many of us in SL that choose, request, disallow a relationship of RL into SL; this is fine from an artistic point of view, but is ultimately impossible. We have to function in RL, to give us the wherewithal to even be in SL. I could go on and on about this, but I don’t want my comments to take on a full post.
Anyway, again great post! I’d like someday to participate in a conversation between you, AM Radio, LightWaves, Eshi Otawara, Bettina Tizzy, Pavig Lok, Vint Falken and some others, and share our varying perspectives on this matter. In closing, I would say we do our best, creatively, when we are alone, and loneliness is only one factor that “might” be a source of that inspiration.
I would really be interested in knowing, for lack of better words, what the “connection of the spheres, and lines from the center point mean” Might you elaborate, please?
@Gary – I think you mean the mind map application itself? Or maybe I misunderstand. It’s not unlike a 2D mind map – start with a problem or concept (a sphere) and you can add off-shoots to that idea, connected by the lines.
Think of it as a 3D version of the following: http://debategraph.org/
Gary: What an amazing discussion that would be. You’ve mentioned people who really do capture many of those feelings through their art. I’d add Bryn Oh, her immersive works tell stories that touch on so many of these themes of loneliness, love, sociality, and what it means to be human. Of course, I also think that nearly everyone on the Grid would have something useful to add.
In the first part of your comment you’ve touched on something that I think is really critical and deserves a novel let alone a blog post. The concept of acceptance or the almost Buddhist concept of living ‘in’ loneliness in order to simply be…and second, the idea of getting out of the way of our ego, ‘give and ye shall receive’. But regardless, what’s important about it, and why artists are my heroes, is that I resist the temptation to ‘cure’ what is part of our humanity.
A few of my own touch points, since you mention Moore, include Rollo May’s the Courage to Create and Matthew Fox’s Creativity.
And finally I’ll sign off for now with a favorite poem:
We must become ignorant
Of all we’ve been taught,
And be, instead, bewildered.
Run from what’s profitable and comfortable
If you drink those liqueurs, you’ll spill
The spring waters of your real life.
Forget safety.
Live where you fear to live.
Destroy your reputation.
Be notorious.
I have tried prudent planning
Long enough, from now
On, I’ll live mad.
- Rumi
hey whatz up leav a mesage ok
hey whatz up leav a message
Very good article. Thanks but I hope you don’t mind me being a contrarian.
I must take exception with the 3D mind map. I’ve used them in ThinkBalm and Metanomics. I find them harder to use than their 2D predecessors because nodes eclipse each other and other objects in the scene. Either the mind map is stationary and one must move around to “look” at the node information, or they are moving and eclipsing – orderly but annoying. If the third dimension were used for something functional my opinion would be different but as far as I seen it’s just used because it’s there.
I do agree with Erica, you and the many other virtual world enthusiasts, they are more engaging. But just adding a third dimension doesn’t make something better. Another example is shown in the Flickr link from the ThinkBalm Figure #1 in your article, a four color square target for polling. Even the results of this polling system (3D color-coded bars) are no better then the 2D version.
However, there was a potential voting system I came across a couple of years ago where people were asked to meet in the DC mall at locations that demonstrated there “stood” on a two dimensional issue. Then people near you had their opinions in common with you on those issues. Of course, in a virtual world we have full three dimensions available to us so we could “float” our opinions on three issue dimensions at a time.
On your other topic, Hub2, wow! Land use planning – there’s a great use of virtual worlds. Of course that’s been known for a long time but Hub2 really brought it home to me. But my contrarian questions are: Are avatars needed? Should this be done in Second Life or Google Earth?
Again, thanks for your insights and links.
OK, this is the sort of thing that, as an academic researcher, really burns me. To quote the most annoying part of the review:
OK, so here are some researchers who go to pains to collect empirical evidence convincing them that those who have strong connections of one type have strong connections of another type.
The reviewer’s counterargument? Anecdotes that support his own ideology. And from fiction, no less!
Arrrrgggghh!
@ Dusan and all…I want to say Merry Christmas, I want say just Merry, I want to say many things, to which and back at you, Dusan.
While sharing with the rest, here is a gift to you, perhaps to help, even if for a moment (a poem I wrote called “Reaching For Sunlight”)
As long as I have cognition,
my tears will flow
of the sorrow, and the missing
inside her soul.
The bird will sing
as long as she will listen,
even when she’s not there,
even as the soft water glistens.
Singing of love, beckoning for love;
a tree where you may rest.
You will see the view;
please bring your nest
Let go your grasp,
spread your wings and fall;
flying will be natural,
as love cannot thrall.
Ralph:
Wonderful points about the 3D mind map. As these are very early prototypes, I think we’re in the early days of refining them. Your comments have been echoed by others, in particular around the time it takes to get over the ‘annoying’ part, I suppose is the best word for it.
I’m not convinced we’ve yet struck on exactly the right visual cues to make the mind maps perfectly intuitive. The work that Jeff has done, for example, which has been used at ThinkBalm, ends up with the difficulty of a stationary mind map and the need to cam around to be able to read the floating text, and the prototype we did, wherein the nodes move, makes it easy to lose track of where your nodes are!
Part of the issue is technical, I think: the use of float text over prims is a clunky solution. Making the nodes move so they don’t overlap is one way of allowing unlimited nodes (or branches) but can make it difficult to create a sense of hierarchy or to highlight which branches are newly added etc.
However, I’ll make a few points I suppose: one, because these are early prototypes it’s also early days, and the insights of yourself and others is helping to provide insight into what works and what doesn’t There are a few plans in the works to increase their functionality, and I’ll touch on a few of them:
- Cross-integration (real time) to a 2D Web site. This will be useful for ongoing mind maps where participants can come and add branches at their leisure, for team projects say, like specification trees.
- Branch ‘voting’, similar in some ways to what Keystone did with Wikitecture where branches can be voted on, and branches ‘fall off’. In fact, I keep returning to Keystone’s tree, because I think it may be a more intuitive symbol that works in 3D.
- Addition of notecards, textures, and other content within the branches.
- Thoughts around different visual symbols other than nodes and branches.
Now, having said that, you bring up an incredibly useful question: what exactly IS the third dimension of the mind map? What is it adding that a 2D mind map DOESN’T have? In my experience, the dimension has been presence – there’s something about being able to voice or text chat with other people present that is the equivalent to a brainstorm session “live” – but I can’t always fly folks in to do a brainstorming and so use SL as a platform for this. Mind you, I also use teleconference calls, Skype, and asynchronous e-mail: it’s all about using the right tool for the right job.
Where I’ve seen the mind maps used most effectively is when they are ‘recording devices’ for group discussion. Rather than as the focus, a moderator or ‘nod(t)e taker’ documents the conversation to provide an artefact of the brainstorm session.
So…I totally agree. There’s more work to be done. And that’s the fun part: I’m convinced that as one of many tools, mind maps are simply examples of the range of collaborative tools that is arising in virtual worlds that may, in SOME cases, supplement, replace or be an option IN ADDITION to other brainstorming techniques.
On that note, I have also really enjoyed polling systems in SL. I was trying to find the link to the “vote by standing” poll you talked about. I know IBM had one – I had a tour of it at NMC and it seemed very effective.
But thinking about other brainstorming methodologies – red dot exercises, clustering, scenarios, etc. I think there’s a lot of rich terrain to explore.
Land use planning: again, I agree. In fact, I personally believe that virtual worlds for land planning and architecture are having difficulty for a number of reasons, one of the main reasons being scale and camera control. You can plan a city street to scale, but if you walk through it, especially with our 8 foot avatars and cameras that hover another foot above us, it won’t “feel right” and so presents problems. I’d defer to architects on this question. (I’m sure they’d also argue that inability to import meshes and architectural files is also problematic).
I like Erica’s term “Immersive Internet” (or maybe not her term, but the one she has adopted) because it’s a heck of a lot easier to understand that “Metaverse”. I like it because it reminds us that the tools and approaches we’re adapting now don’t JUST have application in virtual worlds, but that virtual worlds are part of a wider trend towards more immersive 3D spaces that include mirror worlds, virtual worlds, life logging and augmented reality.
The work we’re doing now on 3D mind maps in a virtual world, for example: one day, those same tools will be used as part of an augmented reality exercise in a “real” room in which the 3D mind map will be layered onto the atomic space.
Google Earth will one day include avatars (or mirror worlds, like Twinity, will provide deeper utility) because for urban planning, it will be important to have plans ‘at scale’ with layered GIS and other info, and the option to “port in” will be used sparingly but effectively, much as architects simulate ‘walk-throughs’ now.
Very exciting times, because the work we’re seeing now is planting the seeds, providing the lessons, and establishing the code base and insights that will help shape the wave of parallel innovation to come.
Gary: And Merry back indeed.
I’m particularly struck by the line “You will see the view; please bring your nest”.
Thank you for your poem. I’m glad we can gather here and ignore the shaky logic of the reviewer (as Beyers points out) and remember that we’re on a journey that he might never be able to fully grasp…and which I hope I never can, because I’m less interested in the destination than the journey.
The V2 is now available
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Ready to rumble! You’ve got the right team, the right elements, and the right stuff to take us to the next level.
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Well… they could make their filter smarter about word boundaries, but if Sony is running it, maybe they _want_ to filter out Matsushita…
I think it’s funny how noone comments here when I am allowed
and how – even though they would – noone is allowed to post on the official SL blog. I also wonder how many views I get this way, much more I would get with an own blog tee-hee.
2k8 looking back was not a financially bad year for us in SL. All our logging mechanisms measured a steady rate of visitors/customers with an expected Halloween and Christmas spike.
However what counts much more is SL itself. (I don’t really like the term virtual world industry, because up until now all other contenders (let’s say it: wannabees) lack real innovation.)
—
SL has changed a lot. It is mainly due to ‘the Lab’ functioning no more like a lab, much more like a ’service provider’. (I hate this expression by the way.)
They are desperately trying to get a grip on ’something’, trying to act as an environment for education, virtual meetings, a game platform, a place for ultimate creativity and many more.
These directions might be good or bad, but it is out of scope for now to analyze these existing possibilites, I would rather ask a question or two from ‘the Lab’ itself (and I hope that ’spiritually’ it is still led by Philip Rosedale – who, according to Wikipedia, is an American _Businessman_, but I have better feelings thinking of him as an inventor).
** Why does SL exist? What is the purpose of SL? **
edit: I cut like 3 paragraphs that were hard to read, let’s just summarize them and let’s try to behave like we are still a Lab but also want to get some cash at the counter.
– Answer it with quick questions and answers –
* What would the world lose with SL going offline at this moment – Nothing.
* Can we do anything to change this and if we can, how? – Yes and see below.
Below
* How can we change this? Do we have a direction (a tactic… a strategy.. a vision…) or just a lot of officers (executive this, executive that, manager of this and manager of that) without private soldiers?
- We must have clear directions. With ugly buzzwords. We have thin pencil lines now. How can we convert them to nice inklines? Provide the functionality. Broaden the userbase. Outsource it to great minds like Anonymus Not. (Oops, that last comment was not intentional and must came from a frustrated ego, _strikethrough_ that. I hate outsourcing too. Ansd consultants too. The idea of them. The ideology behind them. I hate the self-proclaimed ’solution providers’ too. Gaaa.)
Buzzwords: Create, Meet, Learn (Educate!!) and Play, _COMMUNICATE_ (with the residents), PROTECT CONTENT. Strikethrough the rest of the buzzwords. (Keep it simple.)
Now what is really needed, to use a nice strong ink for these. Did we use it in 2k8? No, we didn’t. Umm. THAT is not good.
So… what? Erm… people did that instead of us! No they didn’t. They are stupid. People are just a stupid bunch of pixels until you zoom on them. They come in and they leave. Because there is NO CONTENT. REZZABLE sims are NOT CONTENT. AM RADIO sims are NOT CONTENT. TEMPLUM EX SUMTHIN are NOT CONTENT. These are sims for photoshopping freaking snapshots (and how bad people are in that… it’s like everybody ‘knows’ photoshop, no they don’t), but we need sims where you can actually DO SOMETHING….
Well then.. .for 2k9…
2009
//hire a group of people to start to create a new architecture
* CREATE Provide a place for creativity – organize building contests and BE the jury, don’t hire residents for it. Residents are the plebs. Ask AM Radio if he has ever heard of ambient occlusion, caustics or global illumination, no he hasn’t. These people, the residents are average Joes, most of them create in SL, because they are not good enough to create elsewhere where there _is_ actual competition.
* EDUCATE Educate people. ARC was one of the best thing to introduce. Let sim owners have a clear statistics page for their sim, where they can see HOW inefficient they built or how those so-called solution providers built a bad, bad sim for him. COLOR-CODE sims based on these stats on the map. So everyone would see, NO, DON’T ENTER TEMPLUM EX SUMTHIN or TEMPURA, because they wil KILL your PC.
//build your own linux distro that starts with SL and every application is accessible from it
* LEARN Provide learning sims and contact educators who are _professional_ in their field. No, these are not residents, save for a few. Lure them into SL. It is equally important to educate your content creators. You must have BOTH a clear webpage AND an inworld site for EVERY level of creators. No, the Ivory tower of Prim is out of date. Where is the professional help for someone starting out with _real_ 3D modelling tools
* PLAY Provide the means for gaming. Make Official Linden races. I have tons and tons of ideas. My head is exploding, I think it has already exploded, but I reverted to a saved version.
* PROTECT At the same time, protect the content. Gaa! I know… it can be copied. Yes it can!! But who is the one who makes the copies? The bots! Do we want to save the bots? No. I love them, but… gaa… let’s make that damn captcha for the login screen! Let’s make a captcha for teleport!
Hah! You would say: people would turn away! Oh yes, but WHAT IF THE SIM OWNERS’ CAN SET options like they can set the allow only payment info used residents? Like x – Allow only people who used CAPTCHA for logon; x – Force people to use captcha upon teleporting into the sim; x – Allow only people who use the official SL client for logon.
Or what’s even better: let PEOPLE HAVE THEIR OWN MECHANISM BEFORE LETTING PEOPLE IN THEIR SIM. Like a simple question?
PLUS! Gaa, I’m shouting. So. *Takes a deep breath.* At least let sim owners have a statistic of their visitors WITH IP address and the ability to ban certain IP adresses or subnets.
I know you fear the losing of bots would cause a decrease in statistics. Yes. But in the long term it will be a HUGE benefit.
You say these are just slowing down attacks or making things harder for thieves? Yes, exactly. But now they cut thru IP rights like knife thru hot butter.
I’m stopping now before it’s too late.
Anyway, HAPPY NEW YEAR everyone, I love SL.
PS I never drink/consume (alcohol) nor any kind of meds. I should write everything into a 100 page pdf, but noone would read it.
I questioned the Rezzable thing back when Metanomics was fairly new. I got quite a bit of blow-back for suggesting that there was no discernible revenue streams in place.
Having started up several companies over the years with varying results, my failures have one thing in common: a lack of income streams — the whole “we will make it up in volume” mindset while giving away the store is too easy to fall into.
Microsoft tackled these problems with XBox Live via a reputation system, but that system was attached to small group games, not an entire world.
Second Life ditched the reputation system in favor of simple muting, but also fenced the kiddies into the Teen Grid to paper over the problem.
Any online “world” will have to face these questions, but those that cater to teens have the challenge of legal compliance issues as well. Frankly, not a job I would want.
If only people would stop taking words and changing their meaning. And maybe they could also avoid using context. I guess UK players who smoke will find it hard to tell their Playstation pals they need “to go bum a fag from someone.” And let’s hope they don’t have to tell someone how to open their virtual front door by “grabbing their knob.”
Goedeke – I don’t disagree. My own theory on this stuff is really vague, but it goes something like this: if you’re going to be in the content business, you need to develop a business model that engages users at increasingly complex levels. Start with objects, build a second tier of community, sell service packages, offer subscriptions, create communities of interest within the one community of interest.
Having said that, I do agree with RaR that the tools within SL are ineffective in many ways. Groups suck, metrics are hard to come by, estate tools are spotty, all the stuff he’s blogged about. So it’s not that I disagree that there are limits to the ability to extend the basic business model of, say, Greenies into community building, subscriptions, whatever. Although, having said THAT you then take a look at Immersive Workspaces and you see deep integration with Web-side services using existing tools so, well, I’m not sure – seems to me a lot IS possible.
I suppose I’m rather ungenerously taking RaR to task a bit here. Greenies and the Rezzable sims have been a great contribution to the Grid – the fact that they didn’t contribute to his plans for his business is probably a lot more complex than I’m making out and I suppose we can debate it all day.
But what sort of bugs me is that RaR has taken what should be a fun, community, product-oriented Web site (Rezzable.com) and turned it into a soap box for being cranky and slamming LL. That’s what personal blogs are for. It’s not that he doesn’t have a right to do it, but it sounds a little like an oil or car company Web site slamming government because they didn’t get enough tax breaks or whatever to encourage innovation.
Constructive criticism is great, constant crankiness on a corporate/product Web site is a business decision. I’ll gladly argue the constructive criticism, much of it valid, and like Anonymous-Not, leave my comments open if someone needs a place to vent.
And on that point – A-N, I think you actually have a fair number of valid points and ideas in all that. The one that strikes me the most is the idea of providing training, support and community for different content creator types. I’ve blogged about this before – I’d like to see LL operate more like a game platform – an X-Box say, whatever…with their primary tasks being to a) develop the underlying technologies b) educate its development community on those technologies through deep training and development and c) create proper marketing and promotion channels in which their content partners (meaning, well, everyone) can participate through well-articulated means.
OK…well….time to get ready to ring in the New Year. Hmmm. If someone wants to invite me somewhere I’m on my way.
How about a link to the article?
Have you looked at Edusim? the “A World without Avatars” section is very similar to what Edusim is doing (I believe one of the early version did not have an avatar) and Alot of the 3D factory floor
Opensim is a very interesting platform which is driven by 100’s of people from all over the world who keep working at it each and every day to make it a robust platform which can function as an open source virtual world platform software system.
People get more freedom with opensim and can develop their own projects if they wish.
Rose- link is in the first paragraph but here it is again…
http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2009/01/01/opensimulator-the-choice-for-2010/2/
Thanks VWO….hearing good things about Dreamworld, keep us posted.
And Eric – hmmm, no on Edusim, but thanks for the tip. I’ve been following Open Cobalt a bit, seems to be getting traction.
Hi…
)) )
just to be precise:
6 months of 3D in 10 seconds (not minutes
Great links, thanks,
Giulio, A’dam
Heh. Dusan, I have to think that the brutal fact is that talk is cheap and flimsy, and code is (relatively) expensive and durable. I’ve seen any number of proposals/discussions fizzle out on the OpenSim lists (and others) for want of implementation. Only when somebody presents some implementation are we forced to consider whether we want it in core or not (and even if we don’t, it can always exist as an external module).
OpenSim is a disparate group of corporate/entreprenurial/hobbyist coders (and the hobbyists are often best of all). I don’t believe that there’s any way that we could get policy concensus within the group even if we wanted to, short of some preventative measures (such as, we will not develop a core money module).
The policy you talk about can only be done outside, I should think by a group which is prepared to take reliably working software and discuss a set of rules for living (possibly with some custom code thrown in on top).
I think that we are simply incapable of predicting the future accurately enough to make it worth while to try and plan everything before we write a single line of code, even if everybody were so inclined. At this stage we’re ‘doomed’ to evolve rather than be intelligently designed.
Justin:
Thanks for the intelligent response. And I’d like to clarify a few things, if I could, about my perspective on this.
First, I don’t hold believe it’s the coders responsibility to have this discussion. Those who have enterprise stakes however, would greatly benefit by these kinds of discussion. I believe that these discussions would lead to opportunities for innovation that would sufficiently motivate people to start taking action, which would then involve coding.
Second, I am not asking that these things be in the core. I’m not even saying they SHOULD be coded. I do believe that with a robust discussion that sets aside (at first) the actual code in question would lead to ideas for modules, secondary services, partnerships and, sure, maybe some change to the core code.
Example: identity authentication. As I understand it, this was handled by many grids with OpenID? I can’t remember. But one thing that strikes me as a possible source of innovation, which would arise around a stakeholder discussion around trust and identity, is the idea of some sort of approach to managing avatar names and registration across grids. Maybe this is a Lab thing, who knows – but at least have the discussion and, as a result, perhaps identify third parties and approaches to this – it probably wouldn’t even impact the core module at all.
I never said we needed to predict the future before writing code. But I’m saying there has never been a better time for the serious stakeholders in virtual worlds to actually have this discussion. Instead, the response is always similar to your own: “we coders will deal with it when there’s sufficient demand or a use case that requires it, otherwise we’re hobbyists and are making out the best we can.”
So fine, don’t show up. But I’d like to see a business issues/use case forum then where these issues CAN be discussed, the coders can stay at home, and once we’ve found the innovation opportunities we’ll get back to you. There are enough people out there who WOULD fund implementation if only they didn’t feel like it was like banging your head against the wall just trying to have the discussion.
Oh don’t get me wrong – I have nothing against discussions on policy topics and in the long term I think they will yield valuable insights. It’s just that I’m always somewhat distrustful of the notion of trying to design the future before it gets here – it seems reminiscient of trying to design a standard before it’s clear what is actually needed (which to me often seems to come about through evolution).
Within the heterogenous terrain of OpenSim it seems inappropriate to impose direction. The views of the stakeholders are simply too divergent. People will have very different ideas of what they want their grids to look like, and others aren’t primarily interested in using OpenSim for public grids at all.
Indeed, the modular nature of OpenSim speaks to this – we’re going down the route of allowing people to write plugins to make OpenSim do what they want, within reason. The core should try to be as small as possible.
Perhaps the focus of this debate is really on virtual world protocols (which OpenSim could be part of along with completely different vw implementations, much as Apache and Microsoft’s Internet Information Services both speak HTTP).
Justin: You may be right on where the most appropriate forum might be. Mind you, I’d personally rather hook some of this up to OpenSim discussions because it’s a more innovative platform right now and other ’standards’ and ‘road map’ discussions are having difficulty gaining traction, in my opinion.
Again, however, I can not stress enough that I am NOT advocating for coding policy into the core. I am advocating for a definition of what types of policy people might find advantageous, figuring out the opportunity value, and then looking at different ways to execute. I also believe that this MIGHT lead to insight that would be useful to the core, but not necessarily. I’m really not dogmatic on this.
(By the way, I’d be just as happy to take content protection off the table during the first ’round’ just so it doesn’t become a flash point and leave it for later).
I do like your point about protocols – maybe the language I’m using is the problem. I am NOT advocating for direction or rules. I AM advocating for a few agreed upon protocols that might speed up innovation across the implementations of OpenSim because they are developed in the context of broader business challenges.
Finally – on the issues of code before standards or standards before code, can’t we meet on the middle on this? I’ve never advocated for standards before code, ever. I’m advocating for a meaningful emergence of standards before the code base becomes so entrenched that it’s difficult to back-track. Surely we have enough under our belts right now that a few key protocols can start to emerge? I mean, I know they have but just at least keep them coming.
Sorry if I mischaracterized your arguments Dusan – I shouldn’t really have written when I was tired _and_ hungry. I do think you have a point about trying to avoid baking in mistakes – the earlier we can catch these the more it’s to our advantage.
I do think it’s a little early for standards, though. So many things are in their infancy (intergrid architectures, viewer and intersim protocols, content import/export, etc.) that I think it is going to be around another year or so before any useful formalization can take place.
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A very good point about the flexibility to operate as a “A World without Avatars”, especially for business uses. Corporate users, particularly at the higher levels in an organization will just not be comfortable using avatars for the foreseeable future. Avatars (even realistic ones) are just too “cartoony” for them to take seriously. Removing the avatar from the equation breaks down a huge barrier for adoption and integration of these environments into the business world. There are many opportunities for “avatarless” virtual spaces, especially when virtual spaces are combined with the real world, when the users are fully present and visible to everyone involved.
I offer an example with the Teliris InterAct TouchTable and TouchWall collaboration options for telepresence systems: http://interactivemultimediatechnology.blogspot.com/2008/11/teliris-interact-touchtable-and.html
(* full disclosure I am a Teliris employee and work on this project, shameless plug I know, but relevant to the point)
We are creating a single virtual space (the table and walls) mapped onto two or more real world spaces (surfaces in the telepresence rooms). Shared virtual workspace, no avatars required
I see no reason why OpenSim would prevent avatarless interaction. I believe most avatar rendering would be on the viewer side anyway, but it is something I hope the OpenSim developers keep in mind as they move forward with this amazing project.
Often it is not that much an issue of “the media” being positive or not. It very much depends on individual journalists. If you have a journalist who knows about virtual worlds in your newspaper, he or she well write good stories about virtual worlds, it is as simple as that. Like the reason companies experiment with virtual worlds is very often that some highly motivated individuals wanted to move forward.
I remember visiting the Surfline sims and thinking “yeah, I’d buy a place here” and then being completely stymied when I couldn’t find a house to rent or land to buy. There was barely even anything to BUY. And I was willing. I LIKE buying stuff, even if it’s stuff I don’t NEED.
Bingo. RaR hates land. He hates land as a commodity. He also actually loathes commerce. He’s one of the technocommunists with a neo-geo brand of business that he thinks will involve pulling a rabbit out of the open-source hat, but by using old-media methods of “few-to-many,” making high-end professional content like on the Rezzable sims, and then merely flushing the great unwashed public over them to gawk at the stuff, and then pushing ads at them, like ads for perfumes.
He actually has no respect for avatars as beings, for the virtual world as one they’d like to inhabit and buy things for, and doesn’t make them comfortable. He consistently, again and again, laughs, ridicules, abuses, and despises the notion of buying or renting land — and the people who engage in this business. It’s really an ideological frenzy, and it comes out of that latent collectivism that rapidly leads to the New Class, as you can see, as he pulls together a stable of expensive builders and designers, but doesn’t let them even put out a stall with their vendors, instead, he puts an admission price on their builds, and then puts out very carefully culled and feted stuff like Black Swan lingerie, not even making it easy to click and buy it. It is not for commerce. It is not for people. It is for RaR, the commissar, to control and soak for what ever he can get out of it.
I just find this model utterly loathsome and will go on exposing it. It’s like Disney, only without the niceness, and without the lunchboxes and sneakers you can buy in the store with the Disney logo. I remember the first time I went to Greenies I felt *mugged* — mugged by having to gawk and be discomforted by the big-ass build, mugged by having to endure the little in-jokes with old TV, mugged by the idea that I couldn’t right click and interact and become part of the scene, mugged by the idea that I couldn’t even buy anything without looking all over hell’s half-acre for it.
And this stuff isn’t incompetence or neglect — it’s conscious. It’s a conscious rejection of commerce as it has always been practiced freely among people. His constant ragging on LL and their alleged failure to keep pumping newbies to flush over his sims to gawk at them and become passive eyeballs for his push-perfume-ads is just contemptible. They’ve given him every benefit with mention on their slgrid.net page and multiple featuring on their Showcase. Good lord, you should be able to coin money on the rentals and sales of stuff if you just put it out and stop being so frigging arrogant and insolent about commerce and *people*.
I’m curious about what goes through the minds of you and Vint and other Creative Commons nutters who flog CC all the time and yet don’t practice what you preach.
I saw that same photo on Vint Falken’s site, and wanted to use it, so I clicked to see where it went — it’s not her photo, but merely Via Vint as you point out. That click led me to some other guy’s Flickr page…at the end of the chain was a professional photographer who had been at Burning Life who had a business page with these photos. Nothing on the photos or his site said they were available under CC to just grab and post with a link to him. I figured Vint and the other guy were just friends with him or figured they were all Burners together and it would be fine. So often CC works that way! I figured if *I* posted it with a link to his page, I might get a nasty note — and I also couldn’t immediately find out how to write to ask his permission…so I didn’t use his photo.
SUCH a typical example of the CC shill, and I just wonder how your all’s thinking processes go with this.
>OK, you know what? Cut the crap. This attitude is a total abdication of the opportunity to innovate. You mention policy and immediately people think you mean ‘content protection’ (which is one HUGE component) and then want to wash their hands of it.
Give me a break. This is narrow-minded, feeble, and shows a stunning lack of imagination.
Raph Koster thought long and hard about content protection, avatar rights and commerce before he started coding Metaplace. HE gets it…
Bingo. That’s it EXACTLY. Now have the courage of your perceptions and convictions, Dusan, and don’t be a pussy. You let this opensource thugs then discourage you from discussing COMMERCE and the need to have law supercede code.
And guess what.
Commerce isn’t something that is vague and undefined. And law doesn’t inhibit creativity, it protects it.
Commerce is defined by people in business often as this: “when a willing buyer meets a willing seller over a price”.
The buyer must be willing, and that means having cash, and fraud protection. The seller has to be willing, and as we know, that means IP protection. And they both need cash, currency, and the rules that go with keeping value in currency.
That means private property, not communism.
It means not code-as-law as under technocommunism, but the rule of law as in regulation of business so that it is accountable, and guarantee of the rights of consumers. Most of all it means the legalization of private property which Adam and Justin and these other techocommies think they can jump over and leave in the last century as uncool.
Justin and his lazy laissez-faire code kiddy friends raise issues of “diversity” and “confusion” and “lack of consensus” and all kinds of bullshit to avoid being ACCOUNTABLE TO THE PUBLIC.
You don’t get to just code up a nuclear weapon, and then narf-narf that it went off all pretty and blew up people. You have to work with civilians to make sure your invention is not destructive and harmful to *people*. *People*. *People* and their society is above code, which is merely an inventor’s instruction to a machine. Code is not magical. It is the aggregation of the will of one person or a group of persons; it’s not special, it’s just mechanical, and needs to be brought to heel, just like automobiles on roads need stoplights, traffic rules, etc.
The code kiddies on these opensim grids are like assholes building cars and then saying “oh, we don’t care if people drive around in them and crash and burn and kill each other, in fact that’s kinda fun lulz”.
No. Policy doesn’t “have” to be made outside. It has to be made inside. And if these coders won’t make it under the rule of law under international and universal norms of common sense, then they’ll find that governments and international agencies will do it on top of them and push them aside as the lawless fucks they are.
For you to say that code shouldn’t submit to policy and law, Dusan, it really quite atrocious, given your awareness of what is missing from these worlds.
Essentially, what Justin is saying when you tentatively scuttle away and abdicate to this licentious freak the right to rule *your* world at his *whim* is that his “freedoms” to “innovate” are curbed if he has to think of these “hard” things now and he “doesn’t wanna”.
He shrugs it off to “modulars” on other grids, and merely helps spawn the licentiousness and lawlessness.
Of course you can code policy and law into code, Dusan. Linden Lab, after a torturous route, has been forced to do this themselves.
Example: group tool reforms. They begin with a happy-go-lucky hippie group in which all property is collective, and all property can be sold by anybody regardless of their payment. This seemed like the perfect collective — but it went wrong as such communism always does because it relied on the dirty little secret of code-as-law — tribal understandings.
So they went back and built in checks — founders could now designate who got money and who didn’t; who could put the land to sale and who couldn;t; who could even access the land and who couldn’t. The rule of law, put forth over code and inanimate structures to make a decent human community, where before there was chaos and crime.
Here’s another example: permissions for copy/mod/transfer. Yes, they are hackable. Yes, they are imperfect. But no, they don’t merely signal intention, they work as a mechanical check on theft. Adam and co. couldn’t concede this. But it’s a good example where criminality can be avoided just by good and simple code that doesn’t make it easy for people to steal.
Both of these examples — and there are thousands more — are *coded into the code*, Dusan, so stop being so skittish and politically correct about not touching the blessed Code All Hail the Sacred Code and impeaching on some snotty code kiddy’s precious “creativity”.
Here’s a baked-in-mistake: opensource software and forcible conversion of proprietary virtual worlds into opensource server and client code. It’s not necessary to have interoperability; it’s not necessary to make them grow. The Internet didn’t grow because of Linux or Apache or whatever; it grew because ebay and amazon had proprietary code enabling people to buy and sell safely and retain valuation of property. Virtual worlds can’t skip that step.
At this stage we’re ‘doomed’ to evolve rather than be intelligently designed.
Doesn’t that sum up the fuck-you hedonism of the code kiddy *perfectly*? Good Lord!
In fact, even evolution as portrayed by hardcore Darwinisms is full of examples of how those “evolving” were wiped out completely by an intelligent design they couldn’t acknowledge that privileged, say, thinking animals that evolved tools and made civilizations and worked out rules to prevent mindless survival killing as in the jungle, rather than remaining as monkeys.
If Darwin was right about Darwinism, human beings would have become extinct long ago.
>(By the way, I’d be just as happy to take content protection off the table during the first ’round’ just so it doesn’t become a flash point and leave it for later).
Too bad content makers can’t be dragged along on this expedition of yours.
@ last commentor:
Is it possible for you to use a respectful tone? This is an interesting topic and insulting language and uncalled for attacks ruin the discussion. It seems every other line in your comments are design to inflame rather than ad anything useful to the discussion.
Dusan, great article, thanks for sharing your thoughts with us.
If I look at the focus areas of this development – related to accessibility – I am really excited. “Innovation in a Digital Economy” sound particularly interesting!
Read their forum. link in article might not be available forever!
Regards
Speedmaster Bing
You honour me with your article, Dusan; thanks very much!
Some comments popped up in my mind as I read it, though. “Interoperability” is actually slightly more important than that, IMHO. I actually was unaware of LL’s forthcoming “grid in a box” product (I just heard about “running your own LL servers behind your corporate firewall, which I now understand to be more than I thought, e.g. having your own set of asset servers, inventory servers, login servers and so on), but it so totally makes sense as a new business product to be launched for 2009. As someone said, giving the choice of getting a complete solution to run your own grid totally independently of LL, getting support from a team that does it for 5 or 6 years, and technology that had been field-proven for that time — or start from scratch with pre-alpha software with little real use, well, I guess that the choice is quite obvious of what corporations (and some universities!) will pick! Also, getting good “gridmins” (grid administrators) with enough expertise to run even a small OpenSim-based grid is hard at this moment in time.
Gwyn: Thanks for the thanks and back at you. The ‘grid in a box’ idea is speculation, but public statements by M and others on the Lab side, remarks by Zha at an Orange Island event, and Justin’s comments all point in that direction.
This whole discussion is fascinating and, at times, a little infuriating.
Prok, I don’t mean to sound like content protection is something I’d want OFF the table. I’m willing to test the idea of having policy discussions on another topic, if it would ease anyone’s anxieties. However, the only purpose in doing that is so that a model can be developed which could then apply to content protection.
In any case, this isn’t my expedition, and I don’t intend to drag anyone along anywhere. I’ve stated enough times, I think, that openSim is missing the opportunity of a lifetime. Someone, somewhere is coming up with their own virtual world technology that isn’t based on how to code prims, but will be based on developing something that builds on ideas around policy, trust and protection. Maybe Microsoft haha.
Time will tell, but I guess I’m on the record now. They’re blowing it. And ironically, the people who clean up the mess will be the big corporations which the open source types so typically deride.
Karl – thanks so much for the link.
[...] I’ve been checking out Dusan Writer’s Metaverse blog, whose author is interested “in the metaverse and identity, education, visualization, and collaboration.” Most of his posts focus on education and business, but from time to time there will be a more personal post like Come Inside, I’d Like To Show You Something. [...]
No.
I will not be using a respectful tone – especially the sort of net-nanny tone you wish for in sanitized discussions, making your call from an anonymous avatar. Why? Because those attempting to control the metaverse and its contents aren’t respectful of diversity and freedom, either, and only the strongest possible pushback is what they will understand, to understand that they cannot steamroll over people’s concerns.
Even Dusan is forced to say “cut the crap” — and rightly so. Cut the goddamn crap. Dusan is politically correct even in his forcefulness and talks about an, um, “stunning lack of imagination”. I call it “fuck-you hedonism” — which is, “I get to do WTF I want and fuck you”. Same thing. Deal with it.
Justin isn’t respectful of private property, IP, business, and commerce — except for his own, his friends’, and his RL job’s, which of course he’s happy to privilege. He shrugs off the need to create a regime that such commerce as he enjoys with his RL client is enabled for all.
This is war, and it is war that needs fighting, and I will use as much force as I need to verbally in fighting it. If you are troubled, shield your eyes. Of course Dusan may block me from his blog but that will only call more attention to my posts as I will simply put them on my blog and link them.
Dusan, you’ve copped out here, as I indicated. Giving these thugs a pass is morally wrong and has terrible repercussions. And you aren’t as robust as you need to be on copyright protection precisely because you’ve joined the mad rush, with all the shills and stupidities of Creative Commons and so on, and are adopting the politically correct posture on this as all modern cool dudes want to adopt.
You’ve made another point that is worth contemplating as it unfolds: that so often, opensource is a terrible fraud perpetrated by big business that exploits the hopes and dreams of young people throwing themselves under the bus coding their eyes out. It’s a cynical way to get cheap labour and have no accountability. It’s no accident, comrade, that IBM is all over this like a cheap suit.
yep.. what the she/he said:)
Whats really “funny” is that the “open source” mantra is one of the key things that Killed vr worlds and web3d in the 1997-2000 go round called VRML/web3d. AND these new 20 year old “braniac” vr gurus–who so openly attacked the old guard of vrml, are doing the SAME exact things that made the old guard, well old and obsolete..lol
Open standards = good open source= scam. IP protection= REQUIRED!
So funny, so sad, so true.
c3
Hmm…Prok, your comments are appreciated. Last thing I ever want to do is cop out.
With regards to shills and mad rush, um…well, I’m not sure where that’s coming from? Which part of my posture is it that you’re calling politically correct?
My posture is basically the following:
- OpenSim is losing a tremendous opportunity to innovate because it’s ignoring policy as a source of insight into ways that the code can be developed to provide enduring, lasting value.
- In the absence of this, per Gwyn’s comments as an example, trust will be difficult to establish, and the ‘genie will be out of the bottle’. What’s interesting about how that plays out, is that it is the large companies, the IBMs or Ciscos of the world, who will most likely step into the breach because they understand BUSINESS, they can establish trust (with wider enterprise, etc), and they’re not shy about patents, law and IP protection when it suits them.
I’m not sure if this ‘posture’ makes me a CC shill, it certainly doesn’t feel like it. And I don’t remember ever posting my detailed thoughts on all that – I’ve fairly consistently argued that IP protection, commerce, business innovation, and paying people for work done are all good things. I’d also argue that open source has distinct domains in which it’s valuable, but I ring warning bells the best I can, where I feel knowledgeable enough to comment.
When Harvard Business Review ran a cover story that was basically titled “How You Can Take Advantage of Open Source” and then laid out a 5 step plan or whatever on how companies can lure free talent into coding software – well, that pretty much says it all.
The above is just a theory. We’ll see how it all plays out. But let’s face it, the motivation of people coding openSim is the challenge, or maybe little dreams of becoming the next Linus or getting a primo job somewhere coding protected, patented software. Otherwise it’s hobbyist stuff, and my main argument is that if you ARE one of those hobbyists, keep your eyes open because this isn’t going to turn out as you intended.
Most likely a few “top coders” will end up privatizing, the rest will be left with dribs and drabs, and the platform will “truly innovate” when a company that cares about the business opportunities around identity, security and IP protection steps in, creates proprietary systems on top of or as an adjunct or based on the lessons learned of OpenSim, and walks off with the win.
happy 2009
Here is my totally hypothetical high-budget brainstorm on where you could take this…
subtitle: the flip-side to the collaborative 3D environment coin
How about a 3D version of a personal mind map: where the “idea starting-point/ending-point”, or “top-level of idea hierarchy” would start out as your 3d reference point/viewpoint/vantage-point (whatever). We mean an avatarless 3rd person perspective i.e. 3D shooter as apposed to Tombraider or Second-Life, but I was thinking something that looked more like Autocad ( ; Anyways, you would create other idea points and linky-lines that extend out from that location etc.. then you could move your “minds eye” or vantage-point to those other idea points to gain a different “perspective”, literally and conceptually. This would operate in a completely 360 environment with an endless black background, i.e. focus on the ideas not graphics. Ideas points (clouds, roundy things) themselves could be an assortment of “text-pages” or “pictures” (or laser scanned 3d objects in the premium version haha) that you could float your 3d brain perspective-point over/around/rotate-from-inside-of and read-look at
Of course the icing on the cake would be to do all this using virtual reality glasses/gloves, ie manipulate the mindmap in 3d as well. Kind of similar to how our brains our structure too, i.e. neural network.
if something like this has been done before (this is all easily feasible with 1994 technology) let me know..!!
OR. its not theory. but history repeating.
youll see.
c3
wow. That’s alot of avatars.
those are not “avatar” stricto-senso.
They are called NPC (non player character).
They only exists server-sided and are scripted server-side too.
Sacha
VEEEERY interesting! I’m really curious to hear reactions from people in the blind community, and how these features can be integrated into the actual viewer.
I hope that there is some system of validation or moderation for the annotation. Perhaps I’m cynical, but the first thing that leapt to mind was griefers intentionally posting misleading and erroneous annotations.
Dusan Writer wrote “… the platform will “truly innovate” when a company that cares about the business opportunities around identity, security and IP protection steps in, creates proprietary systems on top of or as an adjunct or based on the lessons learned of OpenSim, and walks off with the win.”
Mr Mitch Kapor believes Linden Lab going to walk off with the win. I believe him. SecondLife the only one with a working economy. Without that then I think that any other alternative world based off the SL/OSim code just going to be a game played by enthusiasts who just in it for the fun or the codey cred like you say.
One of the things Ive noticed is the new efforts from what little Ive seen of them just doing what SL does already more or less. Sure can get more stuff like prims etc but is just more of the same stuff we can get already in SL without the economy and the LL reputation behind it.
The worldview itself hasnt changed in those efforts a whole lot. I think maybe that anyone looking at what might be possible with the OSim base could think about creating an alternative worldview to that already offered by SL. Otherwise is a bit like trying to outAnse Ms Anse Chung. Mr Desmond Shang come the closest to this and so has USS. But they have different worldviews to Ms Chung and is why they having success.
Codey stuff is great and all that. But the user doesnt really care. Well I dont anyways. SL code OS code OG code yada yada so what really. As long as code goes I really dont care how.
Is a bit like my car. I just hop in and turn the key and go. As long as it does that I dont really care about anything else really. Except for the colour.
LL sell me a white car. It goes quite good. But I dont really want another white car even if goes better than the one I got already. I want a blue car or a red one even =) and maybe I get one oneday hopefully. Because I look way better driving down to the mall in colour =)
how can i subscribe the immersive workspace 2.0.
can some body suggest me the link…….
Puneet: I’m not entirely sure what you’re looking for. You can contact I.W. through their Web site:
http://riversrunred.com/
If you have other questions, please e-mail me. (My address is the top right corner of this page).
Not sure I agree. All this post-atomic, bytes not bits, stuff was floating around at the time of the dot.com boom. Much of it died with that boom, and the rest fell down on 11 September. Nations are about power and there is very little evidence of social networks commanding any great hard, or even soft, power. The supporters of the two sides in the Gaza conflict at recent SL events seem to have identified somewhat strongly with the chunks of real estate in the first world rather than with each other or their common second world experience.
In ancient times (okay it was about 1996) disintermediation was the rah rah word of the day. Organisations like corporations and governance were about to disappear in favour of peer-to-peer networks. There’s really not a lot of evidence of that happening, of users identifying with a VW rather than their nationality, or of any VW developing the basics of a common culture or political feeling.
Sadly I hit the button too quickly. Mention of social networks will undoubtedly lead someone to mention al-Qa’ida.
ibn Khladun, and for that matter several Christian historians, were describing social networks rebelling against the government in the thirteenth century. Christianity and Islam seem more prone than most religions to generating chiliastic networks that want to change the order of the world by armed uprising. al-Qa’ida is a very old, not a new phenomenon. Some exact analogies off the top of my head would the Anabptist group that seized control of Munster briefly, the long campaign by the Assassins who were eventually suppressed by the the superpower of their day, the Mongols, or the Almoravid and Almohad movements which briefly dominated the Maghreb and Muslim Spain.
Each of these medieval social networks was directed at acquiring actual real estate as is their contemporary successor. The instrument may have changed but the song remains the same.
When Philip has the power to draft me into the 101st Flying Neko Brigade and send me to Darfur to wag my tail and gesture spam the enemy, I will take this kind of speculation more seriously. I understand there is a great opportunity here to wax hyperbolic about our brave new worlds but it’s all just pixie dust until you can “put boots on the ground”, as it were.
I have more and more encountered the word, “atomic”, to describe the meat that types these words. It is a strange theory of reality to me. If we are nothing but atoms on one side of the glass, and nothing but electrons on the other then we would be wholly quantum phenomenon and, therefore, I should theoretically be able to teleport myself to work every day. I can’t so I think there is an aspect of the phenomenon of “we” that is overlooked by this model; in short, the gurgling bag of blood and bones that is born, pays taxes, then dies.
I am sorry Dusan but the barest notion of a “Nation of Facebook” makes my skin crawl, I should say, makes my atoms, um, makes my atoms… See, atoms just don’t do all those things that make being made up of atoms so much scary fun.
This paper always seemed a bit odd to me, like the headline should be: “Forterra funds a study reporting that Forterra’s technology is *great*!”
Actually, the atomic world versus some other particle world language shows one of the serious problems with much of this post-modern post-atomicism. Despite the heavily sciency sounding language there’s often very little connexion between the words that get used and the actual meaning of those words.
Scienciness bears about as much relation to science as truthiness does to truth.
“Scienciness bears about as much relation to science as truthiness does to truth.”
Hehe. Thanks for the clarification, Alberik. I am one of those pre-post-modernists for whom semiotics begins and ends with the OED.
Icha.
lol, the blog calling the kettle “black.”
measured results? white papers? virtual reality indeed.
cdz
I’d comment more, Icha, but I’m booked to speak at this fabulous seminar, planned months ago, on the Post-Atomic Economy where we will discuss how the the creation of financial derivatives has set us all free from the boring, prosaic and pre-post-atomic need to ever make any actual stuff ever again. Oh wait.
The notion of “engagement” is important, though. In a recent podcast by Prof. Chris Dade of Harvard, he suggests three ways such experiences work; they allow multiple perspectives; the provide situated (or context-specific) learning; and they allow an individual to practice skills that can be transferred to real life.
Incidentally, a very nice person from Forterra commented on my blog posting following my suggestion that flying penises may be a problem for them. Apparently they (a) have already ensured that won’t happen and (b) have no sense of humor.
I agree with Hamlet but I think his suggestion for a new title is implicit anyway. This is a commercial white paper which is a common genre used to promote a companies own products. So Forterra are not alone in using this tactic – it is a commonplace marketing tool.
[...] Anyone know where I can get this jacket? http://www.fastcompany.com/files/philip-rosedale3.jpg From this blog [...]
Yeah, plus they got the cool jackets n’ stuff.
[...] know where I can get this jacket? From this blog and this interview Last edited by Sansarya; Today at 02:02 PM.. Reason: added the photo, rather [...]
Monday should be interesting, for sure. I’d like to hear why he stopped blogging. Can we finally learn what really happened with Cory? Has he got prim hair now?
Great article, and reveals some of the architecture doubts I have about opensim suddenly scaling well.
Re integration with flat apps (like spreadsheets etc). This is something I’ve argued for very strongly and found many virtual world devs less than intersted in. Unfortunately when you think about the real world, flat apps are our dominant information medium.
Remember the amazing fancy 3d haptic glove interface Tom Cruise used in Minority Report. Though the whole thing was 3d and augmented reality, the dominant information unit was flat stuff – pics, movies and text. By contrast most virtual worlds are the communication/information equivalent of sitting on your hands around the fireside having a chat – nothing flat is easy to bring in.
I work for a living in 3D so should be very high on the 3D-use scale, but breaking down my work day I spend twice as much time in flat apps as I do in 3d applications. Bring those flat apps in world and I’ll start using them (or collaborating with them) there… but until that starts to happen… meh.
WOW Sansarya How are you!
It IS a great jacket, no doubt….and about this ‘vision’ of Phil, I mean HELLO, the guy is genius, no one the ‘creative mind’ thinks like everyone else. Of course SL will be the pioneer of many great things to come…sheesh!
Peace!
I think bringing flat apps to 3D world is necessary, but it is even more important (or at least more exciting…) to make those 2D apps into 3D. Think about word processing, we could have blocks of text that we rearrange collaboratively.
Or powerpoint; instead of flipping through 2D slides, we could fly from place to place.
Ditching 2D does not work either – we have 2D texts, signs and a lot more in RL too!
It’s probably because every dorkwad and his brother has a castle in SL. NO MORE STUPID CASTLES!!??~~~~!!!!
Ok, breathe, breathe… seriously though. Why?
Actually, I think you’ve got it quite right… SL is so totally medieval, with its land/tier and slave-labor-esque ways. And the great uncertainty for when the end of the world (cough) grid might come and all the dragons lurking about…
I remember those days…
Croquet has lost all credibility for me:
http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2009/01/who-is-pixeleen-mistralreally.html
What is so magical about peer-to-peer, anyway? It might work when you have a set of things that never change in themselves, say, a million music mp3s that people upload, i.e. the collection grows one by one, but the items in that collection are not dynamically changing. Even so, you have to have multiple servers and at a certain point time becomes an issue, that is, the relaying of orders to use other servers in order to keep serving up the copy of the tune begins to thin out and weaken as too many millions access the system.
But imagine if each file is constantly being edited, added to, renamed, put in short-term storage, put in long-term storage, linked with other things — in short, all the dynamism of a user-generated world, like Second Life. Then it seems to me peer-to-peer becomes a nightmare.
It’s one thing when all Lombardi and McCahill have to move around are the rabits and blocks and pictures and it’s just them and a bunch of professors, but it’s quite another when the number of objects is in the millions and billions, and they are constantly being linked and changed dynamically.
The central asset server model only sounds brittle and unscalable if you never conceive of just adding another grid and starting over with a new asset server. What links these grids together, then? Culture, law, universality — and perhaps IMs or think clients like SLim. When you get technology better to link up the central asset servers of the world, you will, but you aren’t in a particular rush about it. If you can’t establish the authenticity and trustworthiness of a grid, you don’t hook it up to your asset server.
Who says the metaverse has to consist of uniform pieces of Swiss cheese with worm holes to port through and identical consistency and penetrability throughout? Why can’t the metaverse be just like the real world, contiguous but not permeable because countries have borders, security, laws, and you need a passport, foreign currency, etc.
We already have a way to collaborate on texts, it’s called “Track Changes” in Microsoft Word and “your email”. People don’t need the instantaneous collaboration to monkey collectively with a text that you imagine. Writing and thinking ideas is a solitary art, and collaborating is a sequencing art. It doesn’t *have* to be simultaneously. Having asynchronous editing permissions would be *good enough*.
At the UN, in some meetings now projections of Word are put up on the wall so that the countries can edit a text together. But they don’t all jump on it at once and start “rearranging blocks of text”. They ask for the floor, they follow Roberts Rules of Order.
You guys are always trying to lay the pipe to the Metaverse without thinking about the social and political rules of order required to make them coherent.
This is a great post Dusan. I would maybe add something of my own SL experience caring after a large international community. While it is really a cure for loneliness, Second Life also plays a role of smooth social therapy, for manys. If you are a total autist in real life, and that you start to engage every day with people in SL, there is a moment where it becomes like a Pavlovian attitude to start to say Hello to your neighbors…. and this is the smallest effect that SL can achieve withouth really looking for it… it just comes out of this dark, atomic, ultra-modern solitude… I really enjoy reading your blog.. and hope more french people would speak english to enjoy it too…
@Pavig – One of my major areas of interest is exactly what you’re highlighting. I still don’t think we’ve found one of those “aha!” applications that really shows how 2D content can be converted to 3D space. The closest, I think, is Photosynth.
Prok – I’m really no expert on all that, just highlighting what was an interesting article which, I believe, came down on the side of central asset servers but I may be mistaken. The article supports that peer-to-peer has the challenge of creating difficulties with managing “state”. What I think we’re starting to see with the Hypergrid stuff on OpenSim is a sort of distributed asset model, where each grid has a central asset server but those assets can be transferred from grid to grid. The fact they acknowledge that the trust issues around this haven’t been addressed has me, well, baffled. It would seem to me that you’d start with trust and worry about how assets are distributed after, but I’m preaching to the choir in pointing that out to you.
say that the origins are even more distant. try to read “The Art of Memory” by Frances A. Yates
Or, in view of the login mess at the moment, perhaps not.
If medieval metaphor is what you seek, my favorite Second Life progenitor is The Garden of Earthly Delights by Hieronymus Bosch. This delightful triptych has all the elements of real and virtual disjuncture that predates SL by several centuries. Perhaps if Bosch had been born into this century, he’d be immersed in the metaverse creating fantastical sims.
Great Alchemy scroll, it is about the path to Quintessence….
I don’t see SL as medieval, I see it as a shared psychological space, a fairy tale space…so the alchemy scroll isn’t wrong. Just different from the way you intended.
This post reminded me of a couple of things I’ve seen recently. There is another virtual environment that is working hard on embedding YouTube into their environment. In my search to find that story, I stumbled onto ExitReality’s semi solution to embedded videos… They talk about connecting blinkx.com’s database to a 3D world, allowing users to search all of blink’s database. Here’s the story on Exit Reality’s site – http://blog.exitreality.com/3d-social-networking/virtual-world-video-search-32-million-hours-of-video-in-less-than-10-seconds/
Originally I thought it was Just Leap In that had recently embedded YouTube, but I don’t believe it was. Maybe it was Twinity. I know that Active Worlds just recently offered YouTube support, as well.
When you talked about media limits in Second Life, what did you mean? Did you mean that each “object” is limited to one media stream or something else?
Jim – yes, I was talking about the fact that you can only run one media stream per parcel, thus limiting you to one prim per parcel that can carry video or Web. I’d like to be able to stand and watch 4-5 streams maybe, or have 2 youTube videos available and 2-3 Flash movies or something without having to parcel the sim and move my avatar from parcel to parcel just so I can view.
Seems to me that the RealXtend solution might also be able to play looped Flash animations as well, but I’m not sure whether they can play without the user activating them – it would be nice if they’d play without prompting, taking ‘animated textures’ to a whole new level.
Of course, all of this speaks to REALLY wanting HTML on a prim. Mind you, the downside is managing it all – if every prim could have a media stream, you’d need to consider load on the user’s system.
And yes on Exit Reality. That’s their whole model really, embedded Web pages. Neat approach.
[...] adelantar la agenda de trabajo de la agencia. Nos enteramos de este interesante dato en el blog de Dusan Writer. Interesante como la actividad del mundo “real” es favorecido por las herramientas y [...]
Well, here’s my list of things to address:
1. Stability
2. Stability
3. Stability
OK, so that’s the same thing three times but honestly, if there were ONE thing that you want ANY product to do it’s WORK! HMTL-on-a-prim? Gee, that would be swell but if it crashes, we’re no closer.
4. More scalable land prices
Want to make everyone a capitalist? Then let them buy their own little plot of land and build on it. And make the tier price go up incrementally, rather than have big jumps – say from $5 to 15$ just by adding an extra 1024m.
5. Prim purchases
Yes, let folks have more prims but paid for. Sure you can push up the prims by buying more land on the same sim, but what if the sim is full? You can’t transfer prim limits from your total land holdings. I have to think that it’s doable – it’s just a big database after all.
6. IP protection
When folks have (a) land and (b) stuff, they become vested. But if that stuff is ripped off, they get discouraged. Maybe we have to consider making sign-on contingent on providing a credit card number. That will discourage folks from simply creating a new alt when they get banned.
7. Better quality graphics
Man, those promos from Nurien using the NVIDIA PhysX engine look sweet! Sure they have no product just yet, but they recently pulled in an extra $15 million in capital so something has to happen soon before the VCs pull the plug.
OK, I feel better now. Of course, there is absolutely no chance that my list will get anywhere close to Philip’s line-of-sight but simply stating what I think is cathartic enough.
Dusan -
HTML coded onto objects in any environment would definitely be a sort of ground breaking idea. I do have one question though: is it better to fuse the 2D and 3D internet together (using a method like making 3D objects encodable with html) or is it better to pioneer something completely different? I mean, something that pushes that does something different than allowing us to plaster 3d objects with the 2d web.
One example: 3d malls where users walk around, look at objects, and “buy” them in real life. This has been tried before, but it failed horribly; probably because its much more clunky, and much slower than shopping on a web page. Are there other alternatives that would make it more appealing than shopping on the 2d web? I guess that’s why ExitReality’s ploy to let you browse videos inside the browser (although it could be done using HTML encoding like you suggested) is something that is kind of fascinating me right now.
This comment turned into a novel!
Jim
P.S. Sorry about the wonky link up top that seems to be encroaching into the rest of your page… I have no idea how that happened.
I’m with you Sigmund on all of that. Sounds like we need a show with M no?
Sigmund,
With point #5, you mentioned purchasing more prims. Are you referring to an imposed limit of prims in a certain area? If so, do you have any concern that there might be simple limits of possibility in what the SL browser can handle? I know that in Active Worlds people gripe about wanting to be able to use higher poly counts, and yes while higher powered computers can handle more rendering, the browser itself has certain inherent limits that make incredibly high poly objects dangerous. I don’t know if SL has similar limits or not, but that might be why it’s limited now?
Dusan – I like some of your points, and your comment on HTML clears up a couple of questions I had posted in another comment. A while back I noted that SL was going to focus on the users first hour experience, which is something that seems very necessary to me. Your first point, improving “search” would be a great step in that direction. However, I’m not sure many “oldies” would appreciate primary focus being on a few newbies, so I’ll pipe down on why that would be benefitial. Maybe I’m wrong
Jim
When are we going to have a greater choice of media in SL? With so many technologies out there, it will open up a huge raft of potential business in SL.
QuickTime is good, but what about having proper functionality in the player, maybe even action scripts directly linked to the media, for interactivity.
It’s not rocket science.
The ability to be able to communicate between this environment and the outside world, will open the pathway for greater productivity. Something that is already built in from the source in emerging environments. Come on LL get with the programme, if you want to sincerely survive.
The hour flew by! The talk went very well. Beyers and Philip did a great job touching on many many points and issues with the small amount of time they had.
What I think is most important at this point:
When will Philip Rosedale do this again?
Good night, bloggers =)
Who wants to work inside all day?
Atrium. Fish pond. Wireless. Comfortable benches to work on. Shade.
What’s up with the educators getting almost no notice of this “Education Faire” that Pathfinder is hastily putting on? What is this really about?
I’m all for creating holistic virtual communities, where teens and adults can interact in ways that enhance positive dialog and the exchange of ideas. It also makes sense for LL to eliminate the overhead associated with supporting multiple grids.
That being said, a merged grid that lacks STRONG protections for teen users would throw the door wide open to potentially devastating emotional and legal consequences. I can see the attorneys queuing up the lawsuit now; after the parents of some naive 14 year old girl find her weeping in front of the computer, while her avatar is “controlled” by an adult who offered her a “pretty collar” as a gift.
[...] Trends in Education 2009 & Teens in Second Life [...]
“But increasingly, the signs are that the uptake by education of virtual worlds continues.”
This is good to hear. Teachers often get upheld to a standard of behavior/performance/etc. that sometimes seems in conflict with the notion of spending time in a “virtual game.” (Think about it: there are narrow-minded folks out there who would gasp in horror if they knew that their child’s teacher went dancing in Second Life, for example.) Watching places like SL become more mainstream day-by-day eases that pressure on educators and allows the more serious potential of virtual learning to get closer to classroom reality.
Educators can and should be a powerful force driving the integration of virtual environments into the analog classroom. They could be almost as influential as those artist folks (wink)…
Dusan, you obviously don’t attempt to run a business inworld, or you wouldn’t be making these claims about the X Street search.
Yes, we all go to X Street to do searches, simply because it is arranged in categories already, like amazon.com — not like Google, not like Search ALL, but more like Search Places.
I can go first and manually drill down to something like structures — prefabs — offices and then search within that refined category.
But then what happens is I get such a huge list of stuff that I can’t often reasonably make use of it. There’s an enormous amount of stuff on there, and people madly advertise by putting every single colour variation of every single dress or table into the system to try to show up.
So Search/Places still drives the inworld sales, because after seeing there might be something possibly interesting in a store from the huge grab bag you get from X St, you go inworld to that store and hone in on what the thing actually looks like because as in RL, the picture can be very different than the 3-D virtuality/reality.
I understand why LL did this, but I really don’t like some of the fine print I’m reading now that merely confirm my queasy feelings from the start.
o they will eventually merge X St with their own search, and therefore feature those merchants that decide to go on that service. Maybe not everyone will. Not everyone will want to sell an have the Lindens take a commission — it’s like being left out of the yellow pages, however, if you don’t agree to go on this system
o X st used to represent what GOM represented, an offshore “bank” of sorts where you Lindens were held and your dollars were held, apart from the SL system. If the Lindens unfairly banned you for any reason or no reason, you’d still be able to appeal to X St to cash you out or even transfer your account, whereas the Lindens would not cash you out.
o There is the freedom of information and expression of the independent forums — not trivial, for many reasons that have to do with a sort of “better business bureau” function to curb fraud — the sort of threads the Lindens automatically shut as “defamation of individual or group” which they now have unfortunately stealthed into their AR system
o And yes, when LL takes over one business and another, it’s unsettling, because it isn’t necessarly in the public interest, only in LL’s interest. They needed a revenue stream, they bought one. We needed an independent shopping site — we lost one.
Over time, Linden Lab will be able to make it much easier for merchants to sell their stuff via the web store (XStreet or whatever they rename it – maybe “SL Exchange”!).
Why?
1) New SL residents who want to buy or sell something on the web store won’t have to create a special XStreet account and then jump through hoops to get it connected with an SL account. The web store will just use their already-existing SL account.
2) Right now, to sell something SL object on XStreet, you have to put the item inside a special inworld “magic box” that will send it to whoever buys the item via the web. Linden Lab will be able to eliminate that hassle. Sellers will just check a “Sell on XStreet” box or similar (in the item’s properties). The seller could leave the item in their inventory. When someone buys the item via the web store, Linden Lab will just instruct XStreet Linden to send you a copy (straight from the asset servers, where everything really lives anyway).
3) It would be easy for LL to make the listings for each item on the web store available via the SL client.
Prokofy makes a good point that it can still be hard to find stuff in XStreet. I’ve spent a lot of time wading through pages and pages of listings in hopes of finding something good. I wonder if it’s possible to move the whole thing over to a more modern webstore platform.
I think Onrez is superior in most ways. I would hope that LL maintains Onrez functions like the vendors, the Onrez wallet, and the vastly superior web design. SLX always strikes me as a fine example of a web page from about 1995.
On the other hand, I am concerned about the future of the independent forums and of SLX’s currency exchange which is faster and cheaper than the official exchange.
A number of commenters have been bitterly critical of LL collecting sales commissions. I am not, provided that the commissions stay at a reasonable level.
LL needs a more diversified revenue base. Relying entirely on land tier means only that landowners are paying a large subsidy to non-landowners. In an ideal world, and I’d the last user to say LL always meets that standard, the sales commission revenue could be sued to capture a contribution from users who do not pay tier. Real world communities stopped trying to run on land taxes alone several hundred years ago. Sl may not be medieval but right now it uses a medieval fiscal model.
It should be noted that OnRez isn’t being integerated; they’re being shut down, completely. There are things behind the scenes going on here that the majority of SL users aren’t aware of– and it all points to Linden Lab trying to secure a monopoly in the virtual worlds field.
This isnt’ surprising considering that the OpenGrid project is quickly approaching viable stage. Linden Lab taking control of the two primary online markets is a guarantee that the Open Grid project (and specifically OpenLife) will not be able to access those resources.
Regarding the search engines: imo neither the Second Life nor XstreetSL search engines are all that spiffy. Frankly, they’re amateurish, lacking any degree of professionalism or adequate usability.
I believe both Onrez and XstreetSL had their place in the VR world. But now that they have been acquired by Linden Lab, based on past history I foresee them possibly becoming far less valuable overall. While Linden Lab touts all the things they plan to do “for the customer”… the fact that they are shutting down OnRez in less than a month combined with the knowledge of the potential they are shutting out (namely, those resources being open to other grids) reeks of monopoly… and greatly devaluates the potential of those companies.
The only people this is “merger “is good for is LL. We all know it is not a merger just a buy out to eliminate any competition and also a means to stop people making money without LL taking its usual percentage .First it was raised sim prices , now this , the trust LL once had is rapidly going. Soon it will it outprice itself in the metaverse and the only people to blame will be the money greedy decision makers within LL .
Great article as always Dusan. I agree as far as our ReactionGrid OpenSim grid is concerned we will provide scripts to allow users to create their own stores on the web and inworld hich we will link together.
It is, as you point out, a lower priority than stability, customer service, uptime & education of users on how to create their own works of art.
While we understand many users will want to buy rather than create we feel on our grid these users will be in far lower numbers than SL as we try to one on one help them to create.
We very much care that our “Gridizens” are able to make money but it is not what we feel will make our grid a success first. What is the point of our smaller but more niche grids if we don’t try to focus on the areas that SL doesn’t do well?
So I say to our users we will implement a light economy, but 2009 is about you being able to login and get creating on our grid.
Thanks again Dusan for the best commentary out there!
I do want to mention this phrase “erode the overall trust by users in “those openSim worlds”. Our grid has easier access to the owners than SL. You can call our offices with issues or Skype/MSN us. We are inworld and easy to find.
We are the first OpenSim grid to host a major event for Microsoft this May with over 90 attendees planned. We have been in business hosting sites, e-commerce and business applications for over 12 years as G2.
If you are concerned with trust and OpenSim you should visit our grid and meet the staff in person to find out if there is an issue for yourself.
We will in fact build better trust with our users than has ever been done in any grid you can mention, period!
No no no — OnRez Shop would be closed anyway, the Sheep don’t want that (and the client) any more, since they’re semi-abandoning development for SL anyway. February ‘09 was the deadline for the shutdown. LL probably just bought it to at least save what they could.
I agree with Prokofy, searching in XStreetSL is a pain, because we’re spoiled by Google
XStreetSL doesn’t even allow complex searches like two words together (it searches by one OR the other). But, alas, that will now be easy to fix: feed Apotheus’ listings exported from XStreetSL into LL’s Google Appliance (the very same they use for Search > All), and there you go 
Instant Google-based search!
No, actually short-term, I think this is exciting: small content producers will definitely enjoy a huge increase in sales. It’s long-term where I worry. Webshop-based shopping will ultimately drive out the Big Brands in SL — the ones with thousands of products and millions of monthly transactions — since they’ll simply list their products on an in-world XStreetSL, and close down their sims. And all their shops. And tier down. They’ll just create content — like they do for IMVU, There.com, Kaneva, and others — and put it on the web, add some extra for classifieds and higher ranking, and that’s all. So, bye-bye in-world 3D shopping, which was one of the key features of Second Life. I cannot say how much this worries me. In-world shopping was not just about clicking on vendors — it meant browsing through shops and talking to people, it meant organising with friends to go to a shopping spree, it meant talking to owners and shop assistants to get recommendations, it meant returning to a space which was fun and enjoyable. Well, not to all, of course. But at least for a few millions.
How many sims are there which only have shops on them? Another 10,000? Well, my prediction is that they will all go away, only a fool will still keep an in-world shop and pay costly tier for it if you can simply sell it on a well-done web site…
XStreetSL and OnRez Shop, as well as the other independent webshops around there, never “hurt” commerce because they had marginal use. XStreetSL has about 1/4000th or 1/5000th of the content for sale in SL (OnRez Shop even less). The transactions from those sales, compared to what happened inside SL, were marginal, and thus, many of the major brands totally neglected to offer their products on the webshops. For small merchants, however, these were a blessing (less competition, and a large enough market, for no running costs, and no upfront investment).
Now imagine the exact reverse will happen: all content in SL being offered on the webshops because they’re integrated within the SL client. Bye-bye in-world shopping…
Mmmh. Another decision like this, and by the end of 2009, there will be little left on the grid… and maybe we’ll all be on Facebook, selling avatar clothes to wear on our own OpenSim-based sims at home
[...] the real world economy back in April of 2008. Reading similar thoughts about this evolution from Dunsan, Prokofy, and Wagner provide some good insight. I really wish I had posted my internal blog post [...]
LL really does have the feeblest public relations staff in the known universe. Assuming that Gwyn’s statements are accurate, which I do, the very first point LL should have made is that Onrez was about to fold and XStreet was barely making payroll. There’s a lot of wolfpacking at LL’s expense and most of us have been guilty of it at what time or another. LL’s failure to post pertinent facts just feeds the bloodlust.
Gwyneth, don’t panic. I don’t think anything will replace in-world shopping. Even if the big brands decide to not have their stuff in-world, they are about to get disappointed at the web sales.
I have been using Onrez and Xstreet for a while and the sales on both combined cannot match a 10th of what my sales are in-world. I assume it is like that for others too, well, depending on how much advertising they do in-world.
Personally I don’t mind this move at all, the only thing that worries me is the Linden Exchange. XStreet always gave about 30 dollars US MORE per 50k Lindens (I think that’s what it was last time I looked) then Linden Lab. SO that would be like…I am losing a good chunk of money here. Do I smell a price raise?
Second Life needs to be as complete a solution as possible. Web-based search and commerce should really have been a part of SL from the beginning, introduced with the inworld currency. Seems completely (and uncharacteristically) sensible to me that LL should have bought XStreet and onez to achieve this. Of course I’m concerned about what kind of mess they might make of it but generally this is good news.
It certainly is not going to kill inworld shopping – it’s likely to do the opposite. Linden will probably, long term, tether listing on the website to inworld presence – in other words to have an item listed on the website it will probably have to exist inworld (even if packaged up in a box). Linden’s business is running an immersive virtual world not a commerce website full of questionable content from anonymous alt accounts – they’ll likely use the commerce website to encourage greater land ownership and prim usage and not less.
There are potential UI benefits too – we should be able to select a product on the site and click a link that directs us right to that object inworld – not just the default landing point of the parcel it’s on, but exactly to the point inworld where we can, if practical, inspect it before buying.
We need to remember that Second Life is not some new virtual democracy, even if Linden formerly liked to pretend it was. You enjoy the ‘freedoms’ and ‘rights’ in SL that Linden see fit to grant you – it’s a commercial platform, increasingly separate to The Grid, that has to pay its way. Out of the SL project may come a wider and more open virtual world standard that will encompass more variety of use and expression – but right now SL itself is the dirty capitalist engine that’s driving us all there.
Has a one time noobie at one time, i could do with all the help that’s going, it hard to understand all the concepts and all the technie words and still get my head around a 3D world, So for those oldies out there who have forgot what it’s like to be a noobie, here a quote from some one i was trying to teach basic keyboard skills too, “where the any key” this is a responds to a message that that used to pop saying “Press any key to continue” I know thing have move on since then but you get the same feeling when you first join Second Life, it’s a lot to take in for some people, so any help a noobie gets has to be good thing, just remember a noobie is a future business person in sl, and it has knock on effect. Remember to look at a bigger picture.
Nothing seems to be easier than seeing someone whom you can help but not helping.
I suggest we start giving it a try. Give love to the ones that need it.
God will appreciate it.
One word : Censorship
Now LL is able to impose what is suitable or not in their grids and enduser wont’t have any choice anymore.
I guess we will see soon enough some kind of “black market” for the newly banned items.
I guess it’s just a matter of time before some items/skins will be deleted.
0.2e
SM
Hi Kyle G,
You mentioned about your companies excellent service and response. All good and very encouraging. Unless though, you can offer a true SLA, a real team who can bug fix this is not going to fly long term. You cannot as an Service Provider be expected to support the code, this has to come from a deeper source.
This is a very swift move by the Lindens, but nonetheless this will not shut down in-world shopping, which was is and will continue to be one of the most interesting activities in SL. Surely companies like metaLIFE(http://meta-LIFE.net) and Hippo(http://www.hippo-technologies.co.uk/) will benefit – cause they offer advanced in-world networked vending systems, that allow management of items in one place. These systems will replace the gap created by the loss of OnRez vending system.
For some time I thought SL will never go this way and leave e-commerce for the residents to handle, but well they are trying to create a unified system controlled by a single entity(LL) that handles all persons activities in the metaverse. Buying these sites – is a natural step in creation of such a system! we will just have to wait and see where that leads us to:
- more freedom and empowerment
- or more constraints and obstacles to go around( and formation of black markets as someone mentioned above)
Time will tell
does that mean xstreetsl will finally remove all stolen content sold there? nowadays a huge part of the xstreetsl “premade builders packs” and “buisness in a box” sold there is stolen items, its ridiculous that xstreetsl is so uncaring about it.
[...] the best source of stories of all is you. So when you’re done with your homework, come on in, I’d like to show you something, and listen, and make some new stories [...]
[...] consider Coming of Age in Second Life by Tom Boellstorff one of the five pillars of virtual world literature. It is a foundation study that will act as a de facto primary source for not just anthropologic [...]
Clifford Geertz, I think.
Oof, thanks Alberik.
As a former USAF member and son of Air Corps. (WWII) veteran and with two sons in the Air Force, this story caught my attention. Although the military has been known to engineer things, this guide concept for how to respond to blog posts is a really good concept. Any company that uses blogs as part of their social marketing strategy should have this type of tool as a guideline, to help their bloggers handle blog responses in a consistent and positive way.
Valiant – I agree. I actually thought this was extremely well constructed.
Excellent post, Dusan. Great questions and fascinating answers.
I’m glad to see the point about “real life” vs. “Second Life.” I’ve always disagreed with the notion that these are two different, or separate, lives, and I dislike using the term “real life.” At first I settled on “first life,” but that’s a misnomer, too. As I write in “What Is Second Life?” (under my SL name Alas Zerbino), SL seems to be just another extension of one’s whole life. If we talk about “work life” and “writing life,” then to be consistent, we should talk about “SL life.” The use of “SL vs. RL” sets up a separation that, in my mind, doesn’t truly exist — plus it furthers the misconception that one is real and the other is not.
Anyway, I enjoyed the entire post and now I MUST read Tom’s book (which I’ve known about, but never got around to reading). Thanks!
Joan/Alas
The sl/rl thing frustrates me also, but not as much as the fantasy that SL is ‘post-atomic’ as though the interplay of photons on a computer screen were not itself part of the atomic universe.
Excellent post – got this book for Christmas and the interview is informative.
Scratch Rocks , people have the impression that it is just for simple things. I say you have to think outside the box , this is an amazing tool for SL and every builder should have this. Simple to use but vwery effective , just the way thigs should be :} Nice work
Thanks, Dusan, for a nice interview. I am happy I read Tom’s book. Part of me lives in SL to enhance my life and part of me is there as an explorer. I am not trained in anthropology, but I appreciated how Tom described SL in a scientific framework. He also provided some insights, such as the “techne/episteme” mentioned here, or the “creative capitalism” that I have often mulled over since finishing the book.
Awful stuff.
Now maybe you tekkie kiddies can see just what you’re wrought with your MMORPG/Well/Gamerz/Slashdot forums type of culture.
Trolling? THAT is what criticizing the government is going to be called now? If I don’t like how they’re doing the war in Iraq or Afghanistan, I’m going to be a *troll*? Huh?
See, this is why I have fought this shit for the last eight years in online communities — because it was clear to me as long ago as 1999 when I first saw Will Wright’s invention, the Sims offline, that we were seeing a massive cultural shift that ultimately would affect the government, the entire national structures and all our lives.
And so it has. A national institution — the Air Force — is now throwing aside the First Amendment, and simultaneously, while pretending to be open and transparent and accountable and timely and new media thisnthat blah blah blah, is now throwing out freedom of speech to criticize, calling that “trolling” or “misguided” and railroading people into “no response” or “concurrency” at best.
Thanks a lot, male tekkie nerds who created this insolent online culture — and the control mechanisms to deal with it through concepts like “trolling” — and brought it to us now in our national affairs. Not surprising that the virus and mind memes leapt from MMORPG/online Digg type culture right into the armed forces, where the same kind of controlling and cynical mentality prevails from the same kinds of people.
It will all be much bigger and harder to fight now — it won’t be long before we begin to see the First Amendment truly eroded in the name of “fighting trolls” — but at least it’s out in the open, and don’t say I didn’t warn you.
Then Philip, if that’s true, why is it that you have Lindens dedicated to serving the educational committee, and Lindens dedicated to serving the enterprise community, and Lindens dedicated to serving the “solutions providers” community, but when it comes to inworld business — content creators, merchants, and land dealers — we only find out what Linden Lab is up to when one of us has been turned into your lunch. There are no Lindens dedicated — openly — to inworld business.
Only Lindens — stealthily — devoted to picking out *some* residents at the expense of others, entering into *secret* negotiations with them — and GOMing them and eating them up.
Prokofy said:
Trolling? THAT is what criticizing the government is going to be called now? If I don’t like how they’re doing the war in Iraq or Afghanistan, I’m going to be a *troll*? Huh?
Ummm, no Prokofy, that statement is actually a “troll.” It is a statement tossed out to provoke a response with anger or incivility, often with only peripheral bearing on the topic at hand. It often also includes personal attacks, rather than wrestling with the actual points presented.
so…
“Thanks a lot, male tekkie nerds who created this insolent online culture….”
is also a “troll.”
If you would examine the flow-chart, you would see that this pertains to an Air Force individual responding to a post on an independent blog. The individual Air Force member is asked, basically, to not get into a flame war with anyone, or to respond intemperately to stupidity. Why? It has nothing to do with First Amendment rights, and everything to do with helping folks make a good decision that reflects well on their employer and their profession.
I agree with Valiant – very well executed. Better than I would expect, actually. Bravo Zulu.
The flowchart doesn’t provide a very substantive definition of “Troll”. It associates “Troll” with “bashing and degrading others” which is the accepted internet definition for “Trolling”. The problem is that there is no objective way to determine what “bashing and degrading others” actually entails. This is the point. If I make a post criticizing the Air Force (or any other government agency), am I bashing and degrading it? Some people might say yes and some people might say no. That is a fact of human subjectivity and it is pointless to protest it; however, should we not expect our governments to operate somewhat more objectively than, say, me when I have just woken up and haven’t had my morning cup of tea and the kids are banging off the walls and driving me crazy?
I understand what the flowchart is trying to do and superficially I agree with the intent; however, that the concept of “Troll” has been officially incorporated into government policy is disturbing to me because, at bottom, “Troll” is really just the voice of the Other.
Speaking of education, the following is called a tangent. Did you catch the Fifth Estate last night? The whole hour was devoted to the pitfalls of Second Life relationships. We all come across as geeked out emotional retards. It was a very refreshing take on SL. A whole hour introducing Second Life to the Great Washed and they never once mentioned that you can rez a prim and make a world.
Sorry for the hijack but I saw “Canadian” and “Second Life” in the title of your post and figured “close enough”
If anyone’s interested, http://www.cbc.ca/fifth
Don’t forget the Roadside Philosophers SL group, which has been meeting for quite some time.
This reaction reminds me of a photoshop I saw on FARK.com yesterday that said something that I will adapt a bit, “blog comments are a lot like being in the Special Olympics, even if you win, you are still retarded.”
I am sure the USAF flow chart could make more scholarly definitions of the types of faulty arguments and statements, but I think they did a decent enough job of getting across the idea that while some blogs and their comments make very good points and bring value, others are driven more by attention whore motivations, and we need to sift the dross from the gold.
I keep trying to construct my identity but, every time I edit something, the dreaded “personality drift” happens and I revert back to me.
Identity Construction! I have a difficult enough time keeping my coffee table from sinking into the floor!
Having said that, I do want to contribute so I am going to make a boxed set of Simulacra and Simulation and, um, Lacan’s Écrits – just to get things started.
[...] Rheta Shan’s entry to Dusan Writer’s Viewer Interface Contest – a contest that, as detailed here and here, is aimed at developing proposals for a newbie friendly revision of the Second Life client [...]
[...] to present their entries to the judges before they decide on the results of the contest – go to Dusan Writer’s blog for an announcement of the panel. I am very grateful to Dusan, who has been an absolute sweetheart [...]
[...] entry to Dusan Writer’s Viewer Interface Contest – a contest that, as detailed here and here, is aimed at developing proposals for a newbie friendly revision of the Second Life client [...]
[...] To my great surprise, I made it into the final selection, among such illustrious names as Jacek Antonelli, Damien Fate, McCabe Maxsted and Rick van der Wal [...]
The problem with your analogy, pais, is that commenting on blogs isn’t zero sum. Well, it isn’t always zero sum. Agree or disagree, it’s all grist for the mill I like to call civil society. Anyway, I have an affinity for Trolls. Ever since Ibsen.
There are more problems with my analogy, including letting decorum slip to use the word “retarded”.
Haha, pais. Ya, I caught that one too but, since I knew you weren’t being a troll, I let it pass.
[...] yet another development I read on Dusan Writer’s blog that Professor Luciano Floridi, a philosophy prof at the University of Hertfordshire just north of [...]
[...] to Dusan Writer’s and his judges’ incredible sweetness in accommodating my RL schedule constraints, I will have the opportunity to [...]
[...] looks like I ended first in the SL Interface Contest finals. My heartfelt congratulations go to Jacek Antonelli and Rick van Wal, aka Digado, whom I [...]
[...] 2, 2009 by piensl A través del blog de Dusan Writer’e Metaverse nos enteranmos que los equipos de debates de las universidades de St. John y la de Vermont Lawrence [...]
[...] the Roadmap and now he’s off with a bunch of other people with really long Malcolm Gladwell meme-y hair getting ready to bring Wello into closed beta (in weeks, he says) and he presented in his OWN [...]
‘phallus’ is actually a Latinised version of the Greek ‘phallos’ so ‘phallos’ and ‘phalloi’ are prolly to be preferred over ‘phallus’ and ‘phalli’. ‘phalli’ works, but it is not correct to speak of flying phalli unless the flying items are engorged. For the record the Latin plural of ‘penis’ (which actually meant ‘tail’, not penis) is ‘penes’. There is no Latin plural for ‘virus’.
You either use ‘phalluses’, ‘penises’ and ‘viruses’ or, if you cannot live without Classicist pretensions, you must at least get your pretensions right. So there…
HAHAHA. Many thanks Alberik! See, this is why they need to bring back Latin in school.
[...] DusanWriter´s nos trae una intersante entrvista con el antropólogo Tom Boellstorff, autor del muy comentado libro Coming of Age in Second Life. El entrevistado hace una introducción donde plantea que; I consider Coming of Age in Second Life by Tom Boellstorff one of the five pillars of virtual world literature. It is a foundation study that will act as a de facto primary source for not just anthropologic research in virtual worlds, but other disciplines as well.. Coincido plenamente con esta apreciación ya que este libro representa una mirada seria, rigurosa e inquisitiva Second Life y a lo que significa en diversos órdens de la vida social, educativa y cultural de los que alli residimos. Les sugiero que lean la entrevista y de seguro que compren el libro. No se arrepentirán. [...]
A Look Back, A Look Ahead……
Greetings all! M Linden here. I’d like to wish you, your families, friends, partners and loved-ones a happy and healthy New Year. As we come to the end of the year, I thought I’d share some of the wonders of Second Life I’ve encountered over the past….
Yes, that roadmap, which never had very diverse input, needs re-doing completely.
Yes, Forterra is a show-off. But the USG is in SL too, dozens of agencies.
I don’t get this concept of Twinity as a “mirror” world when each person logging on can chose to make a room in repeat versions of a London or a Kiev, so I don’t see how it mirrors one real city when anyone can make one. I haven’t gotten Twinity to work very well yet so I can’t tell you more.
It seems to me that anything someone dubs as a mirror world will instantly either be terribly boring like social studies homework or will be marked up and changed by users.
You don’t need to hire consultants and fancy security companies, you just need to put on autoreturn to 1 and make sure that you have given permissions to someone in the group to eject avatars and return non-group objects. It’s not rocket science, it’s like putting a filter on your email.
I used to have a more detailed help list of events organizing on my blog, can’t find the link now, but I had at least one point that is HUGELY important, and that is provide very clearly visible instructions inworld, and vocally, as to how to get the movie screens and sound working. This vexes people no end, and you have to spell it out in baby steps with troubleshooting tips.
What I hate about big-ass expenso studies like this is that the people doing them do not know anything about these worlds, haven’t been in them, except possibl superficially, and have no real networks to really do serious investigative work, or even of the investigative tabloidy work like the Herald.
And they come in and demand people give them exhaustive interviews for free.
Hell, no, cut me in on your big-ass grant or I don’t play.
9. Hope that SL will work at the time of the event.
While the grid / logins are down fairly rarely, Murphy dictates that it will happen exactly when you want to have an event. Happened to me twice..
Very interesting stuff. Personally, I’ve taken a completely different approach to producing a mixed reality event (or being an aspect of one).
For me, getting the right people was my top priority, and pretty much all I think about.
Having the right RL staff and the right virtual staff in place, where everyone “gets it”…. that is what has made my mixed reality events successful.
We’ve partnered with a number of groups now to bring RL conferences into SL. You offer some good advice in your column. We handled much of what you describe above, the in world parts that tend to be mysterious to the RL group. The RL group doesn’t have to learn about things such as in world security or how to distribute conference materials in a virtual world. We have that all set.
The potential weakness, though, tends to be the connection to SL. Not all conference facilities have wired in internet, instead relying on WiFi and the wireless system can be stress by the number of conference participants using it. You can do any number of trial runs/tests of your set up, then as the event starts and the audience members start connecting via WiFi to check their email and you start having issues.
Wonderful post, Dusan.
Or, my personal favorite, “…where that idea came from so I know whether to attribute any merit to it or not based on who you are.” As I have said before, in a business context or any forum ideas and art should stand on their own merit.
I thought about this a bit also when I was prompted for my real name before participation in a business think community.
Wow – nice post Mo – will read in full later, but I get the quick sense of it.
Separate topic, but I really believe that it’s important not to confuse anonymity with avatar identity. Associating with an avatar identity does not necessarily correlate directly to anonymity. It CAN but it doesn’t necessarily. You can have an avatar identity that you ‘partition’ from actual identity, but it doesn’t mean you don’t provide the link as a “if needed” thing.
What’s interesting is the question of why people want to use a “real name”. Anyways – complex stuff, but thanks for pointing to your post. Your blog is a must read!
Perhaps it’s because I am a bear of simple mind (like Pooh), but I find it impossible to disassociate my identities no matter where they serve (virtual or real or in the many computer systems my identity necessarily resides as part of the modern world). Yes, my avatar has a different name in Second Life but a rose by any other name still smells, well, like a rose.
As a poet I view the landscapes and avatars of Second Life as poetry and as the living marks made by creative souls. I wander around and understand that whatever I see is just the beginning of something new and yet something that is in line with the historical progression of a long line of visionary endeavors that began with the artists who left us the ancient cave paintings.
About liability and litigation and etc, it’s sad that a business can no longer be run on a handshake and a gentlemen’s agreement. But this is the way of the world.
Thanks for the post, as it continues a discussion that I feel will run for a while yet. for my part I feel the whole concept of virtual worlds is moving away from where it was say two maybe three years ago to more a platform which adds to, rather than is separate from our everyday lives.
Had I known what I know today, and if I could have afforded it I would in fact have taken my real name as my avatar name, as I have done in Twinity, as my feelings are like most aspects of some parts of our organic business lives, which remember are a part of our social lives, the final document is usually signed after the business lunch, where we all get to meet to get those final visual clues from each other, we then go on to have those company picnics with our families etc “grin”
On trust issues although we have had a few scares with so called banking frauds, and some of the dodgy deals done within secondlife, as the stakes get higher, I do fear we are yet to see “the big one” its just a mater of time and then maybe we will revisit this topic in a different light.
I share my real name/identity via my LinkedIn profile, with those I want to do business with. This type of disclosure is likely more important to people/businesses that are new to virtual worlds, as it allows them to quickly establish their “brands” value.
Doing business without the benefit of legal identities, has the potential to leave you vulnerable to a whole host of problems such as:
> Contract Enforcement
> Insufficient Tax Documentation
> Copyright/IP Prosecution/Defense
> Non-disclosure Exposure
With respect to contracts; Benjamin Franklin said “an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.” In business, a single business dispute can ruin you. Written contracts are the “ounce of prevention” that can eliminate costly disputes. Although it may happen in the future, I know of no precedent for avatars to legally execute or defend enforceable contracts.
The tax issue is the growing 300lb (soon to be 800lb) gorilla in the room. It won’t be long before taxing authorities compel the reporting of Virtual World income. I consider it to already be an ethical requirement. If you want to deduct Virtual World expenses, you had better be prepared to identify the recipient, be it a business or individual, of your payments.
Copyright and IP issues are another area of growing concern. What if someone doing work for you “unintentionally” “borrows” IP from another company, goes MIA and the IP owner sues you? How do you subpoena someone you don’t know for your defense?
Protecting your ideas via non-disclosure agreements (NDAs)is another area where real identities are required. If you don’t require NDAs of people who do work for you, you are asking to have your ideas & Trade Secrets stolen.
I realize many of these arguments are philosophically distasteful. I regret that “business can no longer be run on a handshake and a gentleman’s agreement.” Whether we like it or not the reality is that knowing people’s real identities is important in today’s business world, even when that world is “Virtual.”
There are certainly more questions than answers for this topic. SL certainly is a prime place to explore these questions. However, as you say, they are not new – we have many other mechanisms to create different identities or nuanced persona without SL.
Thinking back to my first SL experiences, I quickly got the message that in SL, people tended to avoid introducing themselves with things from their RL, such as name, age, sex, location, education, occupation, and maybe what car we drive as we typically do in informal social settings.
When I learned it was uncool in SL to tell those types of demographic parameters about myself, I had two realizations/reactions:
1. I realized how I had gotten used to my identity based on these things, and I almost felt handicapped to not have them if not for identity, then for small talk. This is one thing that led me to being a kid, because I was faced with the truth that I had confused my Self with my RL roles, something that, as a kid, I promised myself I would not do.
2. I then found the challenge of asking myself *who I really am* at my core with all the other trappings if identity stripped away. (paging mr. zen on line one… to take this call and receive the truth, you must release your hold on what you think it is…) And then, back in SL: given a basic cartoonish avatar shape and text chat, how would I project my true personality into that world for the other persons to grok and interact with?
[...] thing seems to be resonating for others, too. Dusan came at it from a number of directions in a post today, which evoked a number of comments, including this one from [...]
Another excellent post, Dusan. Thank you for challenging assumptions and thinking out loud about identity. These are some of the very same questions I have been struggling with as virtuality and reality become more and more enmeshed. My SL identity (and thoughts, experiences, creations, etc.) are as equally valid and important to me as my “real life” identity. It actually hurts when people brush off my SL persona as just being some sort of fantasy…
Funny how I said this would be a topic that would not go away, and behold was plurked this todayhttp://www.districtadministration.com/viewarticle.aspx?articleid=1852
Not quite the “big one” and not sure if it will be appealed, but this will be a landmark case in days to come.
Having hosted a few more social than conference events, I must agree with both Doubledown, on staff issues both inworld, and organic, and with Sioban on the Wifi issues.
Have not yet found solution for supply, of WiFi for Organic users in venue, as the last meetup my system slowly came to a crawl after I could not refuse password for punters to hook up.
But like all things we plug away by trial and error till we strike a balance that works.
My favorite line from the video: “the efficiency of the rocket launcher team was very seriously impaired” … they gave rocket launchers to guys they’d just given a dose of LSD?
[...] yet another development I read on Dusan Writer’s blog that Professor Luciano Floridi, a philosophy prof at the University of Hertfordshire just north of [...]
[...] (1) Virtual Worlds: White Paper Measures the Benefits [...]
For those who are interested, you can find an excellent paper on the subject of Avatars, Publicity and Identity here: http://tinyurl.com/avatarid
This post reinforces everything I like about you.
Humm looks like the convergence of Avatar and Organics is to be laid out if the EU and other Governmental bodies have anything to do with it, and considering we in the EU had VAT added to our costs have no reason to believe otherwise
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2009/feb/06/virtual-worlds-policy-berr-government-eu-security-it-policy
@Kwame
The degree of separation between virtual and actual worlds, sometimes known as the magic circle, was always wildly exaggerated. Despite all the exciting stuff in the TOS that claims to place LL beyond the reach of any court or consumer law, when those terms have gone to court they’ve been caught short. LL probably has the most fire-breathing TOS, the courts have pretty much disregarded the wilder clauses of the TOS. The breadth of LL’s claims is one reason the courts have consistently ruled against them when their TOS has been considered.
There is a libertarian mythology in virtual worlds that is usually built on a total misunderstanding of the history of the US frontier. (See Mitch Kapor’s good-bye and thanks for all the fish speech for a classic example) The frontier was a government enterprise from beginning to end and one where the natural rights to the land involved quite a lot of gunplay to persuade the existing inhabitants that the frontier no longer belonged to them.
The frontier was not a blank sheet where the rugged individualist wrote his own story. The frontier was pretty much a place where the rugged individualist lobbied Washington furiously for the protection of the US cavalry, subsidies from the US treasury, and a privileged position on the railway network so he could seek rents from his competitors.
Magic circle claims pretty much come down to the same thing. Which is a long way from who am I but then who am I is a big question.
Greetings from one philosopher to another. I have indeed been running The Roadside Philosopher’s group for over two years discussing the ethics and relationships that develop in world and why we think the way we do in here. It is a first person group only, because of all the philosophers in existence we are the first that have the virtual world as a metaphor for life. We share our thoughts openingly and beat up all sorts of topics. Would love to discuss it with you some time. I am also in academics.
I find Beth Noveck’s concepts very disturbing and I’ve been a long-time critic of this heavily-educated and aggressive “thought leader”.
She briefly flashed in SL for a time a few years ago when she opened a much-ballyhooed “Democracy Island” that had a few overrated events and then suffered 0-20 traffic ever after, despite hosting the Creative Commons licenser (sigh, another bad idea, that), the notary public (made by a resident-turned-Linden who never stayed in the community to make his invention really work meaningfully), and Hiro Pendragon’s devices to meet in the sky.
I find it hugely troubling that she has slipped into the meme stream of the Obama team.
http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2008/12/obamas-fake-second-life-advisors.html
She, Clay Shirky, and others of the “personal democracy” gang represent a school of thought that is very much about privileging the Internet-made group over the individual, and essentially engineering an end-run around elected representatives and democratic institutions in the name of “transparency”. It puts the unaccountable coders and social media gurus in charge and makes government accessible to those…with a DSL line and a high-traffic blog.
Go to the definitive article she has done about her theories here:
http://firstmonday.org/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/issue/view/190
Then read my horrified critique — I wish I had more company on this:
http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2005/11/horrible_group_.html
The horror comes from glib cybertechno pronouncements like this one:
“Avatars are “public” characters, personalities designed to function in a public and social capacity. Avatars think and act as members of a community, rather than as private individuals. Having to construct an avatar in a virtual world not only allows me to see myself but it demands that I design a personage for interaction with others”.
Um, no. I will fight this tooth and nail — so will others.
I have to chuckle when I read this because I wonder how it ties into that other big-deal standardization push going on now with the MMOXies (formerly the AWGroupies who now invaded IETF). If you don’t call it a world, but call it a “3-D visualization infrastructure,” do you get to play different standards?
And this idea that it’s evil if just one company does something because “nobody owns the planet,” well, ok, but…why isn’t it evil if just one group of opensourceniks do it? I mean, why does being “open source” somehow confer a blessing on it? Why does *this guy* and not some *other guy* get to declare his project is THE standards-based 3-D thingie?
No, no, no and NO.
this is NOT true: “online, your reputation accrues first in the communities you join, and extends from there.”
This is NOT your best post and this is what I do NOT like about you.
Implying that the avatar is something constructed by “thecommunity” (whatever the hell that is) or something constructed “online” (whatever that really means) implies that the individual has now lost his ground. He goes online, and loses his rights. He only gains them if he gives his “true identity”.
In fact, there is a subtle but real pressure to provide your real name. Metanomics shouldn’t even have to require this of people, but it *is* considered the “right thing to do” if you hope to be “noticed” and “taken seriously”. That’s a shame, because there was once a higher vision for our world, but of course, it’s been trampled, and Metanomics has been very much part of that trampling, hauling in game gods with real name and RL reputatoins as game gods as the early guests, and setting the bar there for “realness”.
I’m sorry, but my reputation does not depend on what a bunch of anonymous creeps think about me in a stupid game. It doesn’t depend on what even right-thinking thoughtful adults in an augmented reality think about me. That is, there might be some “reputational” field that has this or that validity or no validity, depending on your values.
But so often reputation is in fact then power — power of the community to control that constructed self. And that I simply refuse to have any part of — and in fact, a lot of people implicity reject it by taking on an anonymous avatar in the first place. They simply don’t wish to cede the shaping or reputationalizing of their “real selves” to that horde online that can be so insolent and cruel. And they are right to do so.
Alberik Rotaru is writing tripe. One doesn’t need to idealize cowboys and their venturing to respect the individual and his ruggedness and private property. To imply that land rights only came from the barrel of the gun is to swing to the other extreme of revisionist history. This silly socialist notion that settlers are merely subsidized rent-seekers simply belies the historical record. There are plenty of ordinary families moving into ordinary places and setting them where they don’t have to shoot the natives or even find any natives. No need for exaggeration.
Everything depends on how you first perceive the world — even as a world at all, or whether it is a mere “3-d visualization platform” as the guy says about his toy in your other post.
If it is a world — a brand new world, a better world — then people might wish to construct better, separate, more free identities for that world through their avatar, where they need not be bound by the associations and prejudices that accrue to geography and gender.
But the world is really quite eroded as a concept, and Metanomics, with its meta-meddling has contributed to this process, of course, and you can only look properly cool and business like if you can prove you don’t immerse but only meta-ize and augment or only consult ABOUT or write ABOUT immersion, but never immerse.
Then, that sort of tattered world becomes more and more shrill about demanding credentials.
As for you “really trying to run an inworld business”. I seem to have forgotten that you do have a prefab business. I remember sort of stumbling on it. It seems to me, however, that this is merely a kind of testing device, a hobby, not really a way to earn a living, just a sort of “getting your hands wet” sort of thing, as you have your other real business, of which VWs are only a part.
It’s true that in SL, when it comes to work, say on a build, or sharing a sim project, the only thing that counts is their inworld reputation for performing, delivering, being can-do, etc. etc. And that’s indeed how people are judged.
Philip Dick is full of shit. I’m sorry, but people like him are always grandly pronouncing on the need to change and give up and be destroyed and…it’s always *other* people, not the person who has had that grand vision. How did Philip Dick change and what did he give up and could he report back to us now that he’s destroyed? Well?
>to me, Second Life is not a separate world
Then you’re an augmentationist, not an immersionist, and a platformist. Deal with it. Why this attempt to get street cred as an immersionist?!
Second Life is a world — that is, it may be many worlds to many people, but it is a separate place for the overwhelming majority of people who spend more than an hour in it. They readily adapt to the geographical contiguity and conform to the constructs of living inside these boxes. They don’t pause every five seconds and tell them selves they are merely pushing pixels on a screen and augmenting something in real life that takes precedence. Their attention is pinned. Why is that so hard to accept? SL is an economy of attention. For the time that people are absorbed in Facebook sending links and adjusting pictures and whatnot, they are in that world, which is a lighter and flatter world, but still a place “out there” where their attention is pinned.
To be truly entertaining or captivating, stories can’t shout out constantly “look, I’m a story!
“. And that’s why you can’t get too meta- with this concept.
I said 9 years ago in an interview about the Sims offline that the incredible thing about that game was that it was revolutionary — Will Wright had made a revolutoinary machine — it took the narrative engine out of the hands of Hollywood and the TV networks and put it into the hands of ordinary people. It was like the Kodak camera. For the people treating SL as a meta, tweaking its images and scenes like Bettina, the world becomes the world of *that* (one kind of world, itself). Or *that* plus plurk. THe NPIRL gang bears the relationships to the world of SL as roughly Russian emigres or American expatriotis in Paris in the 1930s to their countries and their arts.
Kevin Kelly and his ridiculous communistic generatives-out-of-nowhere is my least favourite tekkie pundit on the Internet. We don’t *have* to have a collective identity, for one. Whose collective?!
[...] to not see shadows I thought I found a way to enable shadows. Unfortunately, I didn’t read everything. In debug settings, set both RenderUseFBO and [...]
Alberik Rotaru would indeed be writing tripe if he’d written what you claim, Prokofy. What I did write about was the trope of the frontier as a blank space devoid of both government and previous inhabitants and the way that historical nonsense is so often linked to cyberspace libertarianism.
You would do better, Prokofy, to avoid filling your mouth when tripe when you have already filled it with your foot.
It’s so new for me! Thanks!
No, Alberik, at least have the courage of your anti-Western convictions.
Here’s what you wrote, again, in case you forgot — I don’t have my foot in my mouth but you may have your head somewhere else:
“The frontier was not a blank sheet where the rugged individualist wrote his own story. The frontier was pretty much a place where the rugged individualist lobbied Washington furiously for the protection of the US cavalry, subsidies from the US treasury, and a privileged position on the railway network so he could seek rents from his competitors.”
In fact, for that rugged individualist, it *was* a blank slate in his perception, if nothing else. And it was an *actual blank slate* in many places and instances because it was not all cowboys vs. Indians and the brave calvary riding to the rescue as you imagine — you merely go in the opposite direction with the caricature.
You’ve also introduced this sort of funny anti-American meme of the pioneer as lobbying furiously for subsidies, army protection and a cushy spot by the railroad — it’s a caricature. You can’t explain complex social and political phenomena in this sort of jargonistic glib leftist revisionist fashion — it’s just too simplistic and silly.
In fact, the cyberspace libertarianism very much draws on those motifs of rugged individualism and pioneering that in fact are legitimate and actual and not the imperialist blah-blah that you try to posit. Cyberspace pioneers may have gotten their start in government institutions and government-funded universities, but they certainly didn’t remain there for long. In the long span of 100 years, even I am an early pioneer of the Internet and I didn’t have any government funding nor did I look for a cushy spot by the railroad — or even the telehub.
Your notion that American history is “nonsense” is a marker for a) your anti-Americanism or b) your own extremist political position within the American scene.
Prok, Prok, Prok, sending you up is not the defining parameter of leftism. I am as atounded to find myself drafted into the left as most of my leftwing friends would be to see it done.
Thanks for confirming that cyberspace libertarianism draws on the trope of the frontier as I originally argued. the cyberspace libertarianism very much draws on those motifs of rugged individualism and pioneering It is unclear to me how you managed to discover the rest of your more than faintly overstated allegations in my brief comment.
If you are going to insist on sticking out your tongue while grinding your teeth together I am not sure why the rest of us have to watch. It is anatomically interesting but it cannot be comfortable for you.
At least two pizza companies I can think of made press-releases that they were going to allow ordering pizzas in SL, delivered to atomic addresses.
Neither of these projects ever went ahead, insofar as I’m aware, but if you google about you can find media reports that treat them as fait accompli – as if they had already happened.
Thanks for the interesting commentary Dustin, I’ve wondered about the implications of Second Life evangelism myself.
Oooh, now here’s a new field of theological inquiry – is there “sin” in Second Life? And if so, what is the nature of the sin? If you “dispose” of an avatar, are you a murderer? And if there IS going to be a Second Coming, might not “He” return in a Second Life?
Inquiring minds need to know!
“And if there IS going to be a Second Coming” I think that would constitute a Second Second Coming and it’s always been my understanding that men can’t do that.
There is an advantage to ordering pizza from the web rather than over a phone. For one, you don’t have to worry about being put on hold. I am usually put on hold in the first few moments when I call in for pizza. Also, a web site makes it easier to see all the options and take as much time as you like without annoying staff.
Now, website versus virtual world is a bit different. If I got a virtual pizza or branded content from the restaurant to take into inventory every time i ordered a real pizza, that may be cool. However, rite now, there are many user interface design issues that need to be addressed before virtual worlds overcome the web.
The “Science Center” group in SL maintains a calendar of science-related events, a database of science-related places, and other SL+science things. All of that can be found via their wiki at http://science-center-group.wikispaces.com/
A Look Back, A Look Ahead……
Greetings all! M Linden here. I’d like to wish you, your families, friends, partners and loved-ones a happy and healthy New Year. As we come to the end of the year, I thought I’d share some of the wonders of Second Life I’ve encountered over the past….
Oscar Wilde said, “Give a man a mask and he’ll tell you the truth”. I think that sums it all. We are what we do, what we think, what we say, and what we don’t do, think, and say. The setting is just a variable that changes. I hope most of us don’t ever find out who our true selves really are, as typically it isn’t as flattering as one would wish. A good way to shy away from that knowledge is to control the variable of setting.
Dusan, I don’t know how you can write so poetically about these seemingly simple bits of news. But I hope you don’t stop.
I think that SL is like a small country where it’s tourism is at its crossroads. As more people come over, there are bound to be diverse interests, and as possible, SL would want to catch them. SL used to have a niche, but as it grows and evolves to embrace a wider audience, these changes are bound to happen. It’s bound to happen, but yes, hopefully the culture and the “human touch” you mention would still linger and not fade into oblivion.
The web page redesign shown above looks nice. Much better than the flickr slideshow in black knockoff they did previously.
well quoted infocyde, though I cannot agree on not finding self, as most pain in ones life is that constant fleeing from self, which perhaps explains the need for some to hide within the mask that is their avatars.
It pains me to see as usual we get an interesting topic on the go, and again the same old coven of nay sayers chip in with personal comments, but hey such is the nature of freedom of speech.
Alberik you are right about the nature of TOS, I was recently asked to write note card to hand to new residents, and was told “we need more fire and brimstone to deter the griefers” to which I answered this means sod all in so far as the note card is concerned, but maybe we try appealing to the majority in a human manner.
My view has and always will be that somewhere along this magical mystery tour we are on, in so far as Virtual technology is concerned some have taken it upon themselves to not see beyond the pioneering nature, and have in my view taken up the “rabbit in headlight’s stance” because of fear of change.
I welcome the input of the real life governing bodies in this trip we take, as the next hurdle we face is the trust and credibility issue “is the avatars word his bond?”
Again I thank all for their part in this debate
your humble servant “grin”
I leapt over here with visions of a conversation about sexual positions advocated by Thomas Aquinas, and was not disappointed by ichabod’s comments though my dear keep looking, there are some “wicked grin”
As an African when it come’s to missionary work, we more than most have seen this machinery in its full glory, and I look at this move with suspicion, but also with personal interest as it shows the alignment of the real world and virtual is getting closer .
Hi Dusan! Great post for placing some things into perspective, but I feel it is rather odd you jump to the conclusion these changes have nothing to do with the new VP’s.
Kingdon gathered a new team, a team that would support user-oriented thinking; the most essential change we’ve seen from Linden Labs in well over 5 years. For the first time it seems like they are trying to understand user behavior and adapt to it, facilitating individuals, instead of looking at ‘the community’ as one big soup they could force to think in certain ways.
If anything the existing homepage shows this most clearly of all and recognize the diversity of the community and SL’s flexibility to many different things to many different people. The pods represent individuals, but part of something larger than just you. At the same time it creates a smooth transition from 2D to 3D – the core function of the of the SL website.
The blog changes are facilitating and also recognizing individuals rather than ‘the user’ as a mass – facilitating each of these groups to find their own niche of ‘relevance’ within the platform of SL.
All in all I am really happy to see this new course SL has taken, and is showing some dedication to its new course in the big revamps in – and outside the company. User centered innovations have proven to be much, much more effective than technology driven innovations, and I currently see this change in a lot of the Lab’s decisions – which is a good thing for VW’s as a whole.
Rick – agreed…I guess I was just poking fun a little – I mean, how many VPs does it take to screw in a light bulb kind of thing. But I totally agree – the focus on user experiences and paths rather than “Oh, we need windlight to make things shiny” is an encouraging development for the Grid.
It’s usually a fairly bad idea to use the etymology of a word to try and establish its meaning. Nevertheless, this could be an exception. ‘avatar’ is from Sanskrit and describes the relationship between a Hindu god and a descent a avatarati of the god into human form. A Hindu avatar is generally thought of as all god, but not all of the god. The usual language we use in SL implies a much greater degree of separation than the Sanskrit word would bear. My SL avatar is obviously all me, but I very much doubt that he is all of me.
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » The US Air Force on Social Media, Blogs … [...]
Excellent analogy, and quite telling as to why people’s reactions to Second Life are so mixed.
It’s quite true that if any company — not just Linden Lab — expects to reach the mega-user audience that the 2D Web enjoys, they will have to make the virtual world experience considerably more intuitive than SL presently is.
However, I do think that Second Life is approaching the right balance of user-ability and content creator-friendliness that it needs to continue to succeed — IF Linden Lab can resolve its continued annoying issues with stability.
P2
That’s pretty funny that close to a million accounts were purged, however, no one really even noticed.
Read it loved it
Immersive Workspaces will still not be a huge success. The reason being people do not have TIME to faff about with the pain that is Second Life. For an hour meeting, we use a conference line. Simple. If we do have to get more involved and see presentations, we use WebEx. Again Simple, quick and lost cost.
I fail to see the value of Immersive Workspaces it’s a gimmick at best and perhaps will gain some customer based. But the smart educators are already hooked into Sun Microsystem’s Wonderland project, the corporates into CISCO and the rest simply use 2D or verbal tools.
I think RRR has pushed their limits on this one, if they are still in business by 2010 I would be surprised.
I don’t think SL is dead by any means, but it offers limited opportunities at this point. SL may yet come into its own, but it is not anywhere near to fulfilling its early promise as a 3D Web.
Markets come and go, that is a fact of life, and businesses have to adapt or die. This one came and went pretty fast.
As I see it, SL-based opportunity can only support smaller consulting businesses and freelancers right now. I think the most exciting stuff in SL is the experimentation being done by folks in education, and it makes sense that SL is a great place for them to be.
There still is a lot of work in the consumer virtual worlds space, however. Certain businesses still see virtual worlds/MMOs as an important moneymaker or offering to their customers, especially in the kids demographic, but they typically want to create their own offering rather than build inside of someone else’s world.
ESC built WebFlock so that it could build custom worlds for those clients. It’s a flexible platform, right now with a Flash front-end but it can support any rendering engine (such as Unity). Yes, you can build lots of games and activities on top of it. One large kids virtual world built on top of WebFlock, Ridemakerz, should be emerging from closed beta later this spring.
So in terms of your question, “will people stay?” in WebFlock worlds — that totally depends on how one designs the particular world and the activities/games therein. WebFlock is just a flexible toolkit and server platform for ESC or third parties to build virtual worlds.
Linden Lab purges nearly a million inactive Second Life users…
Linden Lab has, for a very long time, published quite an array of statistical data about Second Life through a regularly updated (when it worked, which it didn’t always) set of statistical data feeds (mostly collected by aficionados and researchers). …
Jonathan,
Not too sure who you are, or what you do?
You’re missing the point though, virtual worlds have become part of the mix. WebEX, audio conferences and video all have their place and time, as do Virtual Worlds.
Immersive Workspaces is designed to address a lot of the issues arising from Virtual Worlds usability and adoption. We call this, breaking the snowball. We’ve developed a web based system, seamlessly integrating with 3d space. One of the biggest headaches was presenting media, an area traditionally taking around 45mins to set up a 15 min meeting, this now takes minutes. We’ve addressed all this and a lot more. Also, our solution is a fraction of the cost of competing VW technology. The ROI is incredible, one of our clients has told us they’ve already saved over a 1MillionUSD.
The smart educators are using Wonderland, are you sure? 80% of the UK Universities and Colleges have a presence in Second Life. Not to mention, the dizzy amount in Europe and the USA. We’re seeing almost daily Educators opening or expanding their presences in Second Life. As for the corporate world, we’re seeing multiple adoptions: Forterra, Wonderland, Second Life, Open Sim etc.
Also, it might be worthwhile thinking about virtual worlds for their persistent advantage, non- linear interaction. We’re seeing great gains with clients achieving real advantages in distant learning, knowledge transfer and collaboration. As we’ve seen VW’s add that something extra to collaboration.
Also, have a look at the recent Gartner predictions, they’ve cited VW as a major consideration. They even mention our product as one of the main products to look at.
If you get a chance Jonathan, why don’t you come and see a demo. I would love to show it to you personally?
As for our ‘business’ we’ve been here since 2003, I can assure you we will be around a lot longer to come.
Justin Bovington
CEO
RRR
Great article, Dusan. One question – why does every paragraph uttered by ESC in the above start with “so”? Anytime someone starts off a thought with “So,” I know it means they don’t have a clear thought to communicate. They’re thinking it up as they go.
Interesting analysis. I think with a lot of new technologies you get a lot of firms testing the waters there and deciding that it wasn’t market-ready and moving on. VWs and SL are no different.
The key issues of scaleability and “first hour” user interface issues are ones that Linden Lab has frontloaded as priorities for action in the near term. They’ve got a lot of smart people there, so I wouldn’t count them out by any means.
But there is definitely room for new entrants that can seize the space by combining the most attractive attributes of VWs, social media, social networking, and online games.
From what I understand about MetaPlace, they are positioning themselves well. Other solutions like Qwak Forums seem to be contenders in the work collabotion 3d suites. And webinar solutions are still way too expensive for most middle to small firms to use on a regular basis. So there are definitely still opportunities there for a nimble tech company to enter and thrive.
@ Gif – I think you made my point for me. My feeling isn’t that browser-based virtual worlds don’t work, it’s that the value proposition needs to be delivered to each audience. It’s interesting that you use the kid’s worlds as an example, I suppose: sure, some have worked, but far more have failed. It takes the right mix of entertainment, social chat, games, etc. possibly mixed in with a recognizable brand if you’re going to ‘cut through’. But I suppose the bigger argument FOR Webflock, and Metaplace, and Vivaty and everyone is that you can ‘take it with you’ – the ability to embed virtual worlds across the Web is a compelling way to argue that you can attract users from where they already are – L-Word being an example, maybe.
Add Quest 3D and Unity 3D to the mix (now cross-platform woot!) and you have a decent range of scripting abilities, games, and mash-ups.
You’re right about Second Life – I suppose it’s why I said “chugging along” – it’s not ready for the millions that ESC is after. However, if it can continue to allow users to create their OWN value then the attraction of SL isn’t that it’s a mass media platform, it’s that it has a “work force” that’s in the 10s of thousands, with 100s of schools (as Justin points out), independent content creators, technologists and others.
Jonathan really is missing the point. But then, someone who posts anonymously usually is. (Gif, I’ll exempt you, there’s only one Gif after all). But what was telling about his comment was the phrase ‘2D and verbal tools’. This belies either an ignorance of where 3D tools can take you, or a lack of recognition of the different communication and learning styles. Besides which, anyone who’d propose that one form of interaction is a replacement for all others probably believes that books are dead or, conversely, that the Web will never achieve the power of the printed word. Two complementary media, each part of the mix, each with its strengths.
I suppose it’s no secret whether I’m an optimist or a pessimist about virtual worlds. My bet is they all win: Web-based worlds, virtual worlds, enterprise uses and branded entertainments. I also bet that the breakthroughs to come are in mixed/augmented reality and mirror worlds, in particular cross-media controllers and appliances and sensors that talk to virtual platforms; and geo-specific virtual worlds that allow location-specific tagging and data visualization.
Sure, no one thing will last forever. Eventually ‘creative destruction’ lets us all start all over again, picking up from past successes and failures and forging on anew. But that’s OK. I lost interest in the limits of my Commodore 64 a few years ago.
Although conspiracy theorists want to interpret every single move made by Linden Lab as evidence for some yet-to-be-identified global plot to take over the virtual world, purging of dormant or non-activated accounts is something you might expect ANY business to do as a matter of course. Having just gone through such a process in my real life business, all I can say is that it’s simply a way of reducing expenses.
Trimming down databases is a common enough procedure and I wonder why folks out there should be surprised that Linden Lab might do this. The surprise is more that they took so long – if this is, indeed, the “purge” foretold by John Zdanowski over a year ago.
I also noticed Tateru’s comment that “during mid-January, two sets of those feeds suddenly stopped working. A bug, we thought, as data-quality for the statistical has traditionally been exceptionally poor…” Well, as a private company, I hate to remind folks that Linden Lab have no obligation to feed ANY data to the general public and, as I have said before, I find the company rather too open about what it does. Apart from producing a P&L report once a year for the shareholders and the tax man, LL could legitimately turn off the phones and trash all emails automatically. Off-handedly or overtly criticizing any company for not telling you what it doesn’t have to tell you seems pointless.
I just hope they continue to purge more and deeper.
@Rik – Excellent points. We see progress in SL. And OpenSim for that matter, or variants of it. But Qwak? I have a license to Qwak. The support is terrible. The ‘richness’ of the spaces is lacking. But what it DOES have is the ability to share and co-edit documents and desktop items.
The real break throughs this year for SL will I believe be HTML on a prim and HTTP-In (and maybe mesh imports – but if they mishandle that they could just as easily sink themselves). With those in hand, you could see all kinds of cross-platform applications and mash-ups, and you could hack together what Qwak does, only with far better looking avatars.
Sigmund:
You’re absolutely right, the Lab has a right to its own data and record purging is a common enough practice. However, the success of the Lab is dependent on the success of the content creators who use the SL platform. These are real people making real money operating in SL. Their success is the Lab’s success: as M and Philip have so often stated, as the content creators and enterprises go, so goes SL.
As an intelligent business person, I’m sure you’d agree to the importance of data as a decision-making tool. To take a simple example: would you bank somewhere that doesn’t tell you what its rates are or charges? Probably not.
The Lab isn’t obliged to publish stats, but the business people who use SL as a platform for their enterprise benefit by being able to predict and track trends so that they can make their own decisions about pricing, investment, and growth.
The very nature of SL and its policies, transparency, technology, IP rights (and protections, or lack thereof) is a shared ecosystem between the Lab and its residents.
This isn’t about conspiracy theories, it’s about trying to determine whether the lack of statistics is a period of adjustments in the baseline data, or an indication of something else gone awry that should be of concern to the enterprises that make money there.
You’ve hit this problem (or some aspect of it) right on the head. It’s what I always call a ‘Rashoman’ experience. Even when we view the same “reality” we are strongly influenced by our assumptions, pre-conceptions, and expectations. That applies to every new experience, not just virtual worlds.
One of the things I find most compelling about SL is, in fact, the opportunity to meet avatars from all over the world who brin all those different viewpoints and worldviews to the table.
From an education POV, what I see is rapidly increasing interest and awareness. The majority of educators missed the 2006 hype period entirely and are just now hearing about SL and the really interesting applications.
Time will tell. I for one am still really excited about the possibilities of such a rich environment for higher ed applications in particular.
Which is correct?
What if they all were just like Protozoa, Construct, and Curve?
SGI once ran a bar too.
If they purged names of people who never logged on, what of it? I must have like 30 of those types of accounts, when I was trying to make an account and got foiled, or made one and made a typo or something and had to let it go. So does everybody.
I had a very different take on it than you, naturally:
http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2009/02/same-old-same-new.html
Nothing good about the “members only” specialized FIC secret lobbying of the Lindens for features sets, without the general public being able to excercise some sort of democratic oversight. Like decisions to remove traffic that fix aesthetic problems for geeks, and ideological problems for control freaks, and get rid of embarrassment for corporations without footfalls, but then kill sales for those inworld who merited ungamed real traffic. That sort of thing.
>they’re about reorganizing how the Lab itself aggregates and distributes content for the purposes of streaming people to the stuff that will make them stay.
No, they’re about controlling customers more and filtering out ones they don’t like.
>For the first time it seems like they are trying to understand user behavior and adapt to it, facilitating individuals, instead of looking at ‘the community’ as one big soup they could force to think in certain ways
This would be great, and a welcome development, if it didn’t involve a huge blindspot: inworld business. The Lindens peer at the grid now, and say “everyone out of the pool, and go into the following locker rooms: a) Enterprise b) Solutions Providers c) Educators d) Socializers/Customers — everybody else. And they favour one set, and filter, corral, streamline, control category d).
>The blog changes are facilitating and also recognizing individuals rather than ‘the user’ as a mass – facilitating each of these groups to find their own niche of ‘relevance’ within the platform of SL.
They are balkanizing and controlling the community through filtration. And that means only they see the whole picture. Bloggers who care about the entire world and the ramifications of everything happening to everyone, as in a real world situation, or cross-themes or cross-channel concerns, will have to work really hard to get reporting from the different channels and aggregate it and make sense of it.
There are already plenty of missionaries and evangelists in SL from all over, tons of them. Search for words like “Christian” or “Gospel” and you will find them. They all operate from the assumption that you go to where the people are and you don’t worry about adjacency issues. Kind of like all those street missions in RL located next to porn parlours and such.
I agree with Sigmund and with Dusan. Purging those never-active accounts is an obvious necessity. However, the change in numbers is something that is easily misunderstood, unless explained.
This seems like the perfect sort of situation for a big post on the blog of the order of “Here’s what we’re planning to do, and here’s why it benefits everyone” sort of post. It’s a great opportunity to head off wild speculations and explain the benefits of the process before it happens. It goes a long way to demonstrate the sort of consistency of approach and communication which the enterprise likes to see in a service.
Only that explanation never happened, which is a bit sad.
I’m glad to hear that Justin and RRR are doing well. I think that there are some excellent use cases for enterprise virtual worlds. The one I am *personally* most bullish on is ops management, with the virtual presentation of telemetry data.
Dusan, I thought you stated this quite well “However, if it can continue to allow users to create their OWN value then the attraction of SL isn’t that it’s a mass media platform, it’s that it has a “work force” that’s in the 10s of thousands”
I agree with you. It’s funny how many people I run into out there that think SL is dead, but I try to tell them otherwise.
An interesting trend we see is kids brands wanting to shift their websites to a 3D or 3D-like interface. They are not necessarily creating a full MMO. Time will tell to see how this really plays out. While you said that most virtual worlds fail, these are websites which already have high traffic built around a real world brand, and where kids are already spending a fair amount of time playing flash games. I do not think that these websites will take over the world and become monsters of market share, but I believe that it is much easier to monetize a virtual world-like website than a normal one via virtual goods.
OK, all I have time to dash off, but interesting conversation.
So the big story is the “metaverse” goes from “Snowcrash” to “Flash sites using Swift3D”.
Which is from what the older websites have said, was the end of the first web3d hype in the early 2000s.
It just goes to show that “tools” sold to developers to use any way they want commercially ALWAYS trumps “single company owned service media platforms” for any real commercial industries growth.
I dont remember any of these “big 3″ running there businesses/or client projects this way.
Bailouts from the government were meant to help “industries” not “companies”.
Best to let these 3 join the ranks of being just another freelance flash/web house.
Join the rest of us flash artists and action script dudes since 1999.
cdz
[...] Life. Dusan Writer comes to the rescue with an explanation in this illuminating tell-all titled The Forked Road. By Chenin in Articles .::. You can follow any responses to this entry through [...]
Social Construction
Anyone who has studied Social Psychology will be familiar with the extensive work of Kenneth Gergen about the constructed identity and its variants in different social groups and situations. Also group work done by Zimbardo and others underpins these significant findings.
We are arguing here about a phenomena that has been well researched and well proven for many years now. Its findings and conclusions are well established, even in situations that are fabricated and not considered ‘normal’ interaction.
Constructed Identity
Our identity consists of parts. All are part of the whole, yet the sum of the parts is greater than the parts themselves.
Identity varies in differing situations and each person who knows us sees us with a different identity according to their own filter of experience and understanding. Just as we all have our ‘telephone voice’, we have a personality for every individual we come into contact with, depending on our previous stereotyping of people we judge as being ‘like them’ – in real life this judgement is often made by the colour of someone’s skin, their gender, hair colour, age and dress. These categorisations are strikingly arrived at within 7 seconds, before a person even has a chance to open his or her mouth.
Pinker (2002, p. 202) writes that “some categories really are social constructions: they exist only because people tacitly agree to act as if they exist”.
Avatar Identity
Avatars are a convenient way to decide on what stereotype you wish to be given, outside of those organically embedded into you. You already have an idea of what makes up that category. In Second Life, we are also defining new categories, such as Steam Punk and Furries. What we have is created a socially agreed norm for what constitutes that category.
Avatar names are also constructed like real names. Akin to nicknames, they are ones we chose for ourselves rather than having names like ‘four eyes’ thrust upon us. We construct our own chosen identities within the pressures of our real environment, it is much the same within virtual worlds.
Identities Linked
I personally agree that real names and photographs should identify us and link us to the real world, however there too, we are in a continual process of constructing and deconstructing our identities, dependent on our own and others’ expectations. No one has a consistent identity that they carry around with them intact, we vary al the time. When you row with your significant other or scream at your kids, are you the same person who greets the boss? I hope not because you’ll soon be out of a job.
The same applies to virtual worlds, we fit in with societal expectations of us. Linden Labs has the intelligence to treat each cultural entity as distinct. They don’t expect conformity as Twinity does (which is not surprising given its Germanic home – were we to stereotype this would be neat, tidy, organised and controlled). We re bound by cultural expectations.
What is Transparency?
When Dustan talks about trust, again the word transparency rises its ugly head. Authenticity, integrity, validity and other such words enter the arena too. He mentions ‘RECOURSE’, this is simply a culturally bound principle in the US and other western nations. Nations who do not have a blame/sue culture are not even aware of this. I have a lot of contact with Portuguese people, in both realms and people from this culture are eager to exchange personal information in Second Life. There is no ‘blame culture’ in that country. Perhaps the Western ’sue’ culture is the reason for fear, not transparency itself.
I myself was at the sharp end of that phenomenon in hiring a builder who we shall call ‘Dolly’ here. Dolly was from the US, California to be precise. Dolly wasn’t interested in the pittance I paid her to build in Second Life, she had a sick relative who needed money for medical care. Dolly had limited building skills and I took pity on her believing I could train her. Needless to say Dolly’s work was never any good and was never completed. However, after she disappeared I was contacted by her lawyer who informed me that I had to pay $12,000 US because she had incurred stress during her work in Second Life. All this was set up well before I took Dolly on and needless to say, she had already tried the same stunt several times before this. If this is your culture, then indeed it is wise to hide your true identity.
Where there is money, the lawyers, accountants and tax men will always be there to take their cut.
However this is nothing to do with ‘who you are’ and everything to do with preventing exploitation. As Dustan says, relationships are another construction, built over time and dependent on past performance. This is why social networks have become paramount during these information rich times.
Body of Evidence
I have to disagree with Prokofy Neva, not because I personally disagree, but because there is a huge body of empirical research that reinforces these facts about the human psyche. I see the power of Prokofy’s argument and know that might can sometimes be right, but not in this case – where masses of leading research over the past 100 years points in the opposite direction. Alberik did not write tripe, he wrote something that has been well substantiated. I am sure that those interested in this subject would find much of the work done by ‘Social Constructionists’ useful.
The Value of Anonymity
As Infocyde points out, Oscar Wilde was a wise man. Seldom are we given the opportunity for anonymity in life. However, the opposite is also possible, as people are shown to construct lies more liberally when given anonymity in courts. As even language is a fundamental construct, we can make ourselves and others believe anything we want to through language and image.
Why hide behind an Avatar?
So why separate part of our personalities and split them off – as you would do if you kept your true identity hidden behind an avatar?
- To separate an aspect of your personality and contain it in an environment that is not threatening. People threatened in this way would find help in the study of PTSD, fragmented personalities and warfare to understand this more deeply.
As Kwame AKA (Julius Sowu) says, fleeing from ourselves has caused more grief that integrating and understanding our various identities, or ‘faces’. Personally I would encourage anyone resisting this move forward to look at themselves and identify what they are frightened of instead of resisting change.
Times are Changing
Change is inevitable, even change of the ’self’. We grow older, we change jobs, we cannot resist it. Change can be positive, once we are across the barrier that is fear. We are more than one identity, we are many – changing, evolving and growing. I thank everyone who has given me the material and inspiration to join this discussion to help me change and grow.
To show the world all that you are and share it with others is the most powerful expression of ’self’ possible. To deny this to yourself and others is tragic.
[...] recently posted some thoughts about avatar and actual identity, which generated excellent discussion. But I thought I’d [...]
Nice post, People are hiding behind the avtars cause there are suffering from identity crisis
The number of accounts that disappeared from in-world search has now exceeded 1 million.
Hi Dusan,
I’ve been alternatively wrestling and romancing the concept of identity for the past year or so. As you mentioned, we all take on different identities, not only over the course of a day, but over the course of our lives.
One challenge in thinking clearly about the subject is that the word “identity” encompasses quite a few different meanings which are related, but not identical. For instance, there are legal, social, psychological and even spiritual aspects. Just within the psychological sphere, the term identity can apply to social roles, gender preference, transcendental states, and so on.
So Botgirl is both real and fictional, depending upon the context and the particular aspect of identity one is referring to. I’ve found that arguments about identity in the avatar community often stem from mushy definitions. We end up disagreeing because I might be referring to legal identity and the other person is describing the personal experience of being a unique being.
I disagree with your statement “I personally agree that real names and photographs should identify us and link us to the real world…” The problem I have is the word “should.” Should from an ethical standpoint? A healthy psychological standpoint? A legal standpoint? I would certainly agree that it is your right to insist that I disclose RL identity if I want to do business with you. But that’s not my responsibility, rather it’s your personal preference. Like most things in life, some people make a choice for a healthy reason and some out of either nefarious intent or psychological trauma.
Finally, agree with your last statement, if you mean “self” as the unique mixture of personal qualities, talents, beliefs and so on each of us possesses. I don’t think it’s tragic if I don’t give you my social security number.
Anyway, thanks for continuing to fight the good fight. I’m going to be working in this area for the next six months as I prepare for a RL/SL exhibition on the topic of “The Ambiguity of Identity.” Hopefully, I figure a few more things out along the way.
Extremely well written and thought out. Thank you for posting it.
I strongly disagree with the implication that anonymity is detrimental to self and society. Like pen-names before then, anonymous online identities afford all the appropriate avenues for open self-expression, creativity, and safety in today’s world.
Here is my original blog post about Identify, Anonymity, Transparency, Safety which makes my case for appropriate use of anonymity–even in the work place.
As much as I respect the work made to refer to existing academic research on this topic, I suggest it does not fit entirely since it cannot reflect nuances relevant to today’s use of online anonymity.
Thanks again for the post.
It’s interesting that we are all dissecting the history of what has happened in Second Life, but generally neglecting to discuss activity before the 2006 / 07 .
To me, Second Life is simply a virtual place, which has been steadily growing for 5 or 6 years. The various ways people have tried to make it work for them ( residents and companies ) are all good, some are more successful than others, some promise more and are higher profile. I’m not sure I think about it being the 3d internet at all, and to be honest I don’t think that has ever really been its intent. I think its something else, which we don’t understand yet, but is evolving at its own pace, slowly and steadily, and of course its really just an very good extension of numerous other virtual world projects going back to the 70s.
At the moment I have to say that it seems far more logical, that the mainstream adoption of a concept like the metaverse or a globally pervasive location based web overlay, is far more likely to come though augmented reality / mobile applications. I say this because that approach requires no process of avatarisation – you don’t immerse to go to the data or the people, the data or the people come to you. I think successful and lasting avatarisation requires a certain type of self analytical ability or expression, which may be limited to an early adopter, or early adopter+ demographic.
However as Justin says, a mixture of fully immersive places, 2 dimensional web and location based augmented reality applications seems to be a perfectly logical way forward on all fronts.
I think its a shame to think of the 06/07 period as a regret. That was a period of people trying to do something very hard – make a virtual place pay for itself in real world terms. Those projects deserve respect for trying this and indeed finding out many things that dont work, as well as many that do.
Applying the Gartner hype cycle to just the adoption of Second Life is an incorrect reflection on the larger development of virtual worlds. When considered along that 30 year time-frame, the peak of inflated expectations and trough of disillusionment are just a little blip, similar to many before.
The future of the internet / enterprise / education etc etc may well go its own way, and VWs will probably play a part in all that. Frankly though, I’m more interested in the unique and new things which these new media afford, not trying to shoehorn them into extending or slightly augmenting old models.
Avatars are only fancy immersive cursers be them anthropomorphic or a puff of smoke with a name on top.
They are not beings, and no rights should be given to them. The need to act as though they are real is dangerous new age dribble.
SL fails mainly as a growth platform since it cannot decide if its a “roleplay service” or a “platform service”.
The SL name system is WHY most people never return, or dont go further than a half sign up.
If allowed a real relationship to others immersively and allowed to create a set of play personas for the Furry or RPG Cyberpunk games WITHIN the Second Life Platform, then LL would have a business beyond server space ponzi scheme, which they dont, and is why they are now in decline phase headed to sell off.
The attempt to just pay a bill to LL is a joke messed up with faux avatar boundries that make all talk of corporate buisness tools a lost cause.
Proof is in almost all the work done by the SL birthed Metaconsultant Agencies, a few produced a few “experiences for marketing or branding”. Most have produced empty office complexs for a platform that cant be used for real business activities.
People in general want the truth, people stressed in these times demand it.
chris
[...] thought Dizzy Banjo summed it up nicely in response to my previous post on the topic of metaverse agencies and virtual [...]
[...] Dressed-Up PowerPoint Slides Constantly Referenced” that drives me nuts, just like Gladwell drives me nuts (please please someone de-meme [...]
[...] Dusan responded to some of the conversation about the media guys and the coming and going of the corporations in SL with a very interesting blog post. [...]
[...] 18, 2009 by piensl Dusan Writer nos informa en su blog que Sandra Porter, científica bioinformática publica en el Genome [...]
The benefits of virtual worlds have never been about brand recognition, unless that brand brought some valuable content or context specifically for the virtual world. Fashion obviously has some pretty direct relevance in both worlds, even if we aren’t all 7′1″ in RL.
As for Coke, if they actually had a Druid quest that would give you ‘Coke bottle’ form with some sort of deal with Mentos to provide a special attack when you combine them. (/me finds own eyes rolling)
That whole phase of real world brands coming into SL was just craziness. Some of the companies that experimented are actually not just out of it, but bankrupt now or close to it.
Advertising as we know it is going away, as you point out. It has been a useless pursuit for so long, imho. People buy what their friends are buying and recommending because it is working for them. Stop wasting dollars on hype/advertising and spend them on making a good product that at first you only let a select few have, an ‘in’ crowd. Then, as Seth Godin and others point out, that novelty will market itself. Why did Google smash Yahoo? Because more people recommended it. Hardly a nickle spent on advertising that I have ever seen. And Twitter, I don’t see that advertising at all, but it is exploding onto the radars of everyone. The community is the advertiser, sorry Weiden & Kennedy.
I hope you will read every word in my blog about this which explains the problem in depth:
http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2009/02/the-reuben-sandwich-virtual-worlds-as-ad-space.html
BTW Dusan’s posts are probably as long as, or longer than mine.
In the amplification of Second Life, we can see there is a certain type of geek’s deep-seated hatred of capitalism and commerce (except, of course for the geek’s own widget business!) that constantly disrupts this conversation about advertising and public engagement and constantly hobbles progress in developing these worlds. Constantly. Over and over again. And it’s ironic that in Metanomics, which is supposed to be about economics and business, these unemployed or semi-employed coders who show up with time on their hands to sit and watch machinima and chat in a wonky interface are the very people who HATE capitalist business. You wonder, what is there purpose in coming to MetaNOMICS if they can’t grasp that the ECONOMICS of these worlds cannot and will not be socialist, but will be capitalist? Hello?
The one person in the chat with this point of view willing to aggressively flog it — one Reed Steamroller who was making ridiculously stupid comments to me (like accusing me of admiring Madoff’s “genius” just because I saw the wisdom in selling advertising!) — and the 2-3 or three who grumbled about advertising, mass culture, and capitalism along with him, aren’t the norm even on the left in SL. They are a hard core that keep dominating this discussion, however.
This was above all a cultural battle in the cultural wars of Second Life. Reuben was despised by a few because he represented mass American culture which is hated especially by Europeans on the left and certain progressives even in the U.S.. Someone like Reuben is hated for representing big corporations which are hated, especially by Europeans on the left. But…we can’t let Europeans on the left (and Canadians, and Japanese and anybody else out there) hobble progress. Media needs to sell ads to support itself. Media will always sell ads to support itself. Media will go on selling ads to support itself despite your belief that it should be ad-free and culturally superior and paid for…out of a tip jar or Dusan’s budget or something…
Mo Hax is a PERFECT exemplar of the mindset that I’m describing as the very hobbling problem here.
>The benefits of virtual worlds have never been about brand recognition, unless that brand brought some valuable content or context specifically for the virtual world.
Of course they have. There.com methodically and consciously sells ad space and invades the content with corporate offerings and has the time of their life. They make money, and the kids in There get the brand jackets, cars, sneakers and they don’t care. They love it. It’s ok. They are not harmed. This concern that VWs must be scrubbed clean of brands and no brand can ever come into a friggin’ virtual world unless it’s a precious Lilith Heart tree or something is completely whack. NOBODY BELIEVES THIS except this small handful of geeks bleating about it in SL in the sandbox and at Metanomics. The rest of the world, led by people like Reuben of vision, have stampeded off to the large populated worlds which at this stage are kids’ worlds. And there they will follow those kids as they grow up and go on to other platforms that will also have brands and ads. And Second Life will be a goddamn backwater of freaks unless they start selling the ad space like normal people do with normal media.
Yes, I realize the politically-correct geek-o-rati point of view about these things is that the brands have to bring a benefit inside the VW — usable swag, clothing, a virtual car, something. Well, sure, that’s nice. But…guess what. People actually have no problem with seeing a Sears washing machine and a Dell computer they aren’t actually touching and using in world if it can tie up to their RL in some way with information, and that merely means staffing. It’s not rocket science. It will work. That it didn’t work, as I explain in my blog, is directly the fault of the cynical and anti-corporate geeks who ran the “solutions providers” companies at the time. Full stop. Get them out of the way, and bring in a new bunch. Please.
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with Coke having a Druids Mentos thing. They should have a 100 such things. In fact, it shouldnt’ be up to me to hack together a “coke vending machine” in SL out of existing resident made stuff because the Coke bottle of the real Coke island is so crappy — again, because the geeks working the job had contempt for it like Mo Hax does. If those people hired to do this hadn’t been rolling their eyes, we’d see better results. They did, so we didn’t. THEY ARE THE PROBLEM, NOT THE PLATFORM.
Most people don’t react with an eye-roll and contempt to ads. They click on them. Ads work. There isn’t some gigantic class of people for whom they don’t work. That class is a niche, it is small, Reuben gets that, and Reuben moved on until the Lindens, and their special ones like Mo Hax, understand that they need to get out of the way of progress here.
That whole phase of real world brands coming into SL was just craziness. Some of the companies that experimented are actually not just out of it, but bankrupt now or close to it.
The crazyness may have been in the acceleration or the hype but it need not have failed if the geeks of SL in Linden and close to Linden had been willing to sell the ad space. That’s all. I explain this problem at length in my blog, and really lambast them for having the cynicism, as a class of people, to insist that we all live with ad farms for the sake of their geeky notions of needed 16 m2 for script testing, while they simultaneously refused to sell the ad space available on the splash screen. It was a historical missed opportunity. They can make up for this, but they’ll need to walk firmly around people like Mo Hax in their own ranks.
This is one of the more stupid things I’ve seen in a social media in a long time:
“Advertising as we know it is going away, as you point out. It has been a useless pursuit for so long, imho.”
The entire Google monster, the entire Yahoo machine, the entire old-media machine moved to the Internet like nytimes.com runs on the ad principle. The ads, be they aesthetic or not, get clicked on, they lead to sales, and they work, and they pay out. That’s the reality. Mo Hax may find it culturally unaesthetic; Mo Hax may find it politically unacceptable. But it’s what works, and will go on working despite him lol.
>People buy what their friends are buying and recommending because it is working for them.
This, again, is one of those silly geek ideas that has only a very small niche applicability that can’t work with the mass of people, on mass media, or selective channel media like Second Life. Not everything is run on a “word of mouth” principle. A solitary person clicks on the ad he sees on his media — on his email, blog, You-Tube. In SL, he sees it flying around or on his splash screen and clicks. End of story. Get over it. Get over *yourself*.
>Stop wasting dollars on hype/advertising and spend them on making a good product that at first you only let a select few have, an ‘in’ crowd.
Oh, please. Huh? Run the world on the principle of the FIC? Are you DAFT? Dollars spent now on Google ads pay out ROI and keep Google and its many businesses dependent on it afloat. These are ads served to the public, not to ingroups buying an i-Phone and testing it out with geeks. The geek method of selling crap must not be replicated across to other sectors of society — it won’t work, and it’s disastrous as a concept because it means only niche media that geeks approve of then gets to be supported with ads in the way they like. That’s whack.
>Then, as Seth Godin and others point out, that novelty will market itself. Why did Google smash Yahoo? Because more people recommended it. Hardly a nickle spent on advertising that I have ever seen.
Seth Godin is really a danger to society as he is one of those “though leaders” actively undermining basic freedoms and pushing totalitarian groups. I need to take on his Little White Book one of these days. It’s a horror. The only reason Google smashed Yahoo was because Wikipedia and Google cooperated, and not Wikipedia and Yahoo. that’s all.
>And Twitter, I don’t see that advertising at all, but it is exploding onto the radars of everyone. The community is the advertiser, sorry Weiden & Kennedy.
Twitter doesn’t need advertising when it is in the VC stage burning through VC injections. It will, eventually, like Google and Yahoo need advertising.
Great post Dusan, most are very stimulating in scope.
I have touched on this topic, once before on Botgirl’s Blog here> http://botgirl.blogspot.com/2008/10/if-you-see-your-avatar-on-road-kill-her.html
But, to stay more focused on your post, Dusan, my perception is one of opportunity. I liken it to several factors or analogies rather. For example, when we move to a different community or change jobs this opportunity presents itself, albeit a not conscious effort that we made this change. But, point being is this new environment gives us this opportunity to be something we haven’t before.
One might ask why was it necessary, for this environmental change to present this opportunity? This brings me to another factor. It can be argued as to ‘whom’ we really are and what we are made of that makes us that. More often than not, as people we frequent contact with come to ‘know’ us, from their own biased views, it builds a “BOX” around us making very difficult to be different. Why? Because, most people want to be comfortable, change is hard for all. So, this comfort breeds inertia and a degree of psychological laziness. Again, this is not intentional on individualness, for the most part.
It has been said many times that to grow we must reach outside our comfort zone. This takes much effort. Therefore, SL, and I strongly disagree with “chris” above. There are so many pursuits in life we choose as individuals that reflect the things we strongly desire. SL is a very different one, obviously. Chris, why do you think they refer to it as a “virtual reality”; something to think about.
Anyway, there are so many experiences in life that bring us to a personality, and that is only part of who we are. There are also the parts that others perceive us to be. Then there are parts that are much more unconscious, and hidden, or not expressed out of fear of ridicule or rejection. This is where Second Life presents a very different and a historical revolutionary opportunity to BE much of what we have always wanted to be, even if it’s not what we THINK reality IS.
In closing, I’d point out that obsessive or fanatical behavior is a dysfunction. This does not mean it’s something we don’t need to go through to grow into, hopefully, something for the better.
Finally, there is “Anonymity”. I think it’s entirely appropriate when dealing in business transactions that are of a very significant kind. Buying virtual products for the most part isn’t one of them. But, if it’s a major undertaking and potentially can affect important concerns, then it’s a must. Otherwise this anonymity is crucial to this period of growing outside the box. The key will be, can we take what we have learnt, and apply it in our everyday REAL life; this would represent something very profound.
Dusan there is a correction on my blog I am passing along, X3D-Earth was funded by IARPA (Intelligence Advanced Research Projects Activity ). Thanks for posting this as it is nice to see others reporting on the EXISTING 3D web standard!
For Prokofy, I figured you too well versed in the virtual worlds crowd to not know what is the ISO ratified standard for interactive 3D on the web (X3D), and the difference between open source and open standard. Perhaps I am assuming too much.
Wonderful article. I think, to be honest, it isn’t really an incredibly complicated answer we’re looking for.External Corporations with an interest in marketing residents will not work. Second Life an impractical platform in which to market. Why? Because the technology is too outdated. The grid could not scale with the growth. We can’t have more than 30 people on a sim without it weeping for mercy. What corporation wants to market to 40 residents at a time? Not to mention the instabilities and bugs that still plague the technicians. We, as contractors don’t have the ability to really market our clients, their builds, their projects or in-world experiences because the world is so big that it’s nearly impossible to solicit enough people to make even a modest investment worthwhile. We don’t have access to Message of the Day or any way to tie our efforts directly to the users of the platform. Linden Lab does, and in the future they will likely conclude the they are really the only viable contractors with arms reaching much further than any resident contractors.
We have a responsibility to be honest to clients. I think many in-world companies went to corporates selling them ideal and notions of inflated potential rather than the reality. I’ve heard Second life pitched as “A virtual platform where you can reach over a million subscribers.” And that not technically accurate. We have yet to reach even 100,000 concurrency as far as I know. It appears to me that people like Mr. Stiger see the future value and possibilities of Second Life, but have gravely misunderstood it, as many corporates have. Despite what Mr. Kapor Stated last year in his keynote speech, SL is still being molded and defined by it’s users. It is being given a multitude of purposes and many of those in various industries are just coming to understand what those are. It is critical to recognize the inadequacies of Second Life, but keep in mind the wonderful future it has in store as a pioneer of virtual education, media, marketing and more.
It’s really disappointing to read Prokofy Neva on this blog. Please, stop the hate – ban Prokofy Neva.
Aww don’t ban Prokofy. He has the biggest balls of them all. He does spew hate all across he blog-o-sphere, but I think deep down He has a big ocean of warm LOVE. His hate is there to amplify an individuals belief in love as the answer. The post is about VWorld Branding. Prokofy has one of the strongest of all the SL Brands, a very well known individual. Maybe Coke and Nike will adopt the Prokofy style. “F**king drink this drink, you f**king geeky communist technotard. If you dont drink this f**king drink, you are just proving how far removed from reality you are. All my good friends drink this f**king drink, so it MUST be the best drink in the world. Buy Prokofyade now! (can be addictive, and harmful to ones self-belief, drink responsibly)”.
I don’t really click on ads or make any money from advertising. I know that secondlife is a beautiful thing. For a company to make money here will take many months of hard workings, and they must bring something of value to people who are liking secondlife. The platform is a bit wonky to compete with the usual video game product like quakewars or sony home, but it already has a big userbase of people who really really like it. Ads for outside stuff is not the way forward, Ads for the next super cool RP sim are one example of what could work. Or Ads for all of the Buddist groups in SL. This has all been said before. Noones cooming to SL to look at a bunch of AdBoards, they wont stay long if thats all there is to look at. LL knows this, that is why the keep the website and client virtually ad-free. They should get more adventurous with their website, and maybe help some of the less business savvy customers to improve thier chances of making good (and sustainable) business decisions. What LL still has (freedom of 3d space use) is very beautiful, a bit like gold. Except this gold is handed out as the form of lead.
Mr. Kingdon is a world class BS artist and a relentless spouter of the party line of the moment. He should be in politics rather than technology. Don’t hold your breaths.
Really a comprehensive info on video conferencing and video cameras, good attempt.
I think Kapor’s lab was writing software to control SL using 3D cameras made by others. They aren’t making their own 3D camera.
Troy – you’re absolutely right, and by way of correction, it turns out that these were the guys who MADE the camera that Kapor’s software was linked to. Wonder how he feels having Microsoft buy it out.
Pretty amazing!
Wow, amazing camera work. I am just now stepping into the world of photography and well, this is amazing work.
This chart is an adaptation of a product crafted by the CEC. Where on this product do they state this? I think that is called plagarism. Is this what the Air Force considers “transparency?” Come on folks, cite your source.
With all due respect,
I am not partial to images
which exhibit a “line of focus”
across their centers
regardless of how it was achieved.
Add HDR and you have SL with Windlight ~LOL~
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kros/3272622600/
The zero sum game is the tool that gave us our powerfull world economy today;)
Thanks very much indeed for the mention here. What a fantastic blog you have! The interview with Joyce and Ze Moo was fasinating and I’m looking foward to future virtual performance events. If you come across anything that catches your attention please send it my way.
All the best,
Andrew.
Amazing what’s possible in SL! Here are comments from another director who’s staging live theater in SL: http://tleinsl.blogspot.com/2009/02/first-full-length-play-staged-by-tle-in.html.
I always enjoy your blog, Dusan!
Joan
[...] vez existe mayor diversidad en Second Life. Dusan Writer´s nos conecta con la iniciativa de teatro en SL que va ganando fuerza ya que se reconoce el [...]
Mit Frauen erfolgreich flirten…
Frauen richting ansprechen ist nicht einfach. Tipps dazu findet man hier….
Andrew Linden said moments ago during his in-world office hour that Linden Lab ended up hiring Philippe Bossut, the person who did the SL integration on those 3D cameras.
You wonder what the Big Three are doing now? No doubt what they do best, selling snake oil.
One thing is clear. We get to see who is dedicated to this business for the long term. Whether or not individuals are trustworthy is exemplified by their actions over the long term. Are they committed to a concept or are they just a horde of locusts chasing easy money that can’t be trusted?
Thanks Andrew for commenting! Wonderful coverage. Wish I could have been there.
Joan – you rock, have been following your recent series, really wonderful!
http://blogs.msdn.com/zainnab/archive/2008/07/22/not-rooting-for-reuters-or-how-i-learned-about-journalistic-integrity-the-hard-way.aspx we have doubled the Microsoft community since then and now are branching out to ReactionGrid. He can’t get a story right. It’s not in him….
It has been interesting watching some assumptions that my departure means IBM is pulling out of virtual worlds. If anything this should be seen as the opposite.
I want the industry that I have been part of to continue, it needs companies the size of IBM to be part of it.
I was comfortable that, regardless of any personal needs, this was mature enough in IBM that me going would not cause an implosion.
Now is the time for the industry to move and move fast. I think we will all make that happen.
As for the details of what I ended up doing and why, well thats for my book
I am however very pleased that there has been some reaffirmation of attention to virtual worlds. Its not going away now is it!
[...] featuring the anthropologists Tom Boellstorff and Celia Pearce (pdf file), when I stumbled upon a great interview Dusan Writer had with Tom about Culture, Techne and Virtual Worlds. It made me think about what we [...]
It may be the case that he is accurately reflecting HIS experiencing in SL.
I remember my parents telling me that there is no such thing as a “bored” person, only “boring” people, and if you’re having boring time (i.e. “like watching paint dry”), well, guess what?
SL allows each individual to “bring it” with them. I have found SL to be a environment of some of the most creative, interesting, funny, talented people on the planet. It also offers an international environment in which we can all communicate.
Questioning the future and validity of Virtual Environments such as Second Life is being like the people who opposed the development of trains “because if humans traveled over 35 miles an hour they would suffocate” (this is true – people were concerned about that)
or
like when Alexander Graham Bell took the invention of the telephone to Western Union and they asked him “why would our telegraph operators want to talk to each other?” (Thanks for that one, Pathfinder!)
And as far as IBM having visionary leadership, or being a bellwether of technology let’s not forget:
“I think there is a world market for maybe five computers.”
- Thomas Watson, Chairman of IBM, 1943
There are many extremely intelligent and talented individuals that work at IBM who were in SL for a long time before they could convince the suits that it was a valid platform, but then IBM came rushing into SL like Al Haig ran into the hospital when Reagan was shot, claiming “ok, I’m in charge here” and everyone knew that they weren’t.
Not having success in SL is a combination of not setting expectations correctly, not understanding SL’s strengths and limitations, and LL not yet creating the “mission critical” platform that will eventually dominate the Virtual Environment worlds, by fully supporting the people trying to use it.
I’m working with an IBM person currently on, what to me is, one of the most import areas ever – helping blind people be able to successfully use SL. IBM can and will make significant contributions to virtual environment technologies as things settle in and we all get back to work on making this work, instead of taking potshots over minor setbacks, and thinking that somehow SL is a “build it and they will come” magical world. Success will come through applied understanding, not by slipshod slapping things up in a manner that no one in their right mind would do in RL.
To Linden Lab’s credit they have been doing their business out in front of everyone for years. Those of us who are sincerely interested in eventually having a stable, dependable, reliable Virtual Environment in which we can prototype objects, spaces, buildings and communities (be they for tinies or real life, fantasy builds or RL builds); and import and export files (including 3D) easily, support LL’s efforts to reach that level with their software. From what I understand about LL’s plans, 2009 could be a great leap forward for us all and the competition that is coming along will be great incentive for LL to achieve what they can.
I continue to support Linden Lab’s efforts with Second Life, and continue to work in SL. I welcome IBM’s incredible talents and resources in helping SL succeed, and after the “hype years” die down, believe that we will see virtual environment technology as world changing as the internet and the www.
To paraphrase the famous philosopher, LouieCK – “people are sitting in chairs, 30,000 feet in the air, going over 500 mph, getting from New York to San Francisco in 5 hours………complaining about the 20 minute delay in boarding the plane.” The spoiled generation. : )
Terry Beaubois in RL / Tab Scott in SL
There was nothing “reluctant” about it, Doug/Dusan. I saw:
Ian/Epredator quit IBM
David/Zha’s blog had been silent since AUGUST
http://zhaewry.wordpress.com/
and IBM has been on a manic drive to cut opex by either laying people off:
http://www.businessinsider.com/2009/1/ibm-layoff-count-at-least-2800-in-sales-and-software-ibm
or making life so miserable for people they quit
http://www.businessinsider.com/2009/2/ibm-to-north-american-employees-to-keep-your-job-move-to-india-ibm
So I made an educated guess — and clearly said it was a guess — and promised to update if I heard more. Then I heard more, and I ran it.
But let me take a moment to address some of the more ridiculous statements circulating recently:
The premise that Reuters should have “scooped” every big SL story is the most asinine thing I’ve heard in months. We were there to have an independent, skeptical, non-fanboy, informed view on all things SL and VWs, and I’m pretty proud of what we did. No one paying attention to Reuters/SL would have been suckered by Ginko and the other “banks”, an obvious fraud other “journalists” were too busy throwing “hottest male avatar” polls to pay mind.
And since we’re talking IBM specifically, let me relate an anecdote about a story we “missed”: One day 30 avs showed up on Reuters island waving anti-IBM placards and /shouting “strike!”. I clicked their profiles, and every single avatar in the scrum was less than three days old. They told me their grievances, and when I asked their RL names, they said “we can’t tell you, we’ll get in trouble for protesting!”
Bunch of wankers — I gave them no press.
Lastly, I just want to address the oft-quoted “watching paint dry” remark. It was a shoot-from-the-hip line and I probably would have said something different had I more than 25 minutes to write that piece. But honestly, even after 18 months immersed in people who love SL, and having gave it chance and chance again, I still think “dancing” in a virtual nightclub is deathly boring.
That’s not a slam on people who think it’s “ZOMG GREATEST TECH EVAR!!!1″ If you like it, go nuts. I just earnestly believe based on thousands of hours of first-hand observation that Second Life in its present form will never appeal to more than a small niche community of people it “clicks” with. Second Life’s recent history bears out that I’m on to something, I think. And despite the fondest of memories I retain for my time in Second Life, and despite personal hopes all my friends there (and Linden Lab too) prosper, I’m not going to lie about where I think it’s heading.
Eric was on Metanomics way back when, with reps from media giants CNN and CMP…and Prokofy Neva. You can read the whole thing here . Here are a few quotes that seem particularly relevant today (along with comments from Rhonda iReport and Prokofy):
Oops…my attempt to show when other text intervened wasn’t successful…take a look at the full transcript to make sure you aren’t misinterpreting transitions from one quote to another.
[...] Rivers Run Red saved a client over $1 million dollars with a presence in Second Life using their Immersive Workspaces (TM) solution (in the comments of this post). [...]
I have used the OmniDate virtual dating function on personalquest.com and it is actually a lot of fun. It is nice, as a woman, to have that ‘date’ experience before deciding if I am ready to meet someone in person.
Let’s go over this in more detail, shall we?
1. Eric nee Reuters Krangel was at Columbia Journalism school when he got this Reuters SL gig. Don’t forget that it was Adam Reuters who first opened the bureau with a huge splash, but then sort of wandered away, after he got the Davos interview with Mitch Kapor in February 2007, when Mitch basically said, don’t buy any new land, as we’re looking for the “liquidity event” and planning to opensource the servers, so land will devalue. Small wonder when the Geek Chief (then CEO) says stuff like this, that there isn’t a huge swarm to buy land from consumers, but rather a huge swarm of corporations having a look-see.
SL Reuters was a huge opportunity for Eric, walking right into a wire service position before he’d even graduated, and not having to go slog it out at the Potatoe Picayune in Maine like many other J-school grads have to do to earn their spurs. He got a low salary because he was a college kid soon to graduate basically going into something like a glorified internship. Because Adam lost interest he had the space to himself.
2. So remember, then, Reuters already paid a journalist probably a lot more handsomely, but he lost interest because for him, as a tech and economics reporter, there wasn’t enough of a story in SL and not enough glory within the Reuters pantheon, so he moved on to other tech stories. Adam Pasick wasn’t a lifestyle/culture/etc. reporter or interestd in those topics.
3. In fairness to Eric — and I don’t like being fair to him and have been probably the most harshly critical of him in my blog — he reported more stories than Hamlet nee Linden Au reported or ever *will* report, and far more critically, and with far more journalistic curiousity and skill, quite frankly.
Hamlet disingenuously cites a list of Reuter misses as if Reuters didn’t break a whole bunch of others stories Hamlet wouldn’t touch because they were too critical of LL or the geek magic circle. Eric broke the story on the real identity of the character who ripped of Stroker Serpentine’s beds; he did quite a few stories on the Lindens’ island price hikes and such; he was far more probing and interviewed more people per square inch than Hamlet, like a real wire service reporter, than Hamlet will ever interview in a million years.
Hamlet runs a blog, and is lazy, and lets other people report for him live, without editing. He doesn’t go around trying to “get the story,” he just pontificates and does advertorials and informercials, “oooh this shiny gadget” “ohhh that shiny island” “ooohhh here’s an event from my sponsor Rezzable that really rocks” etc. That’s fine, but let’s not compare an inhouse organ-turned-outhouse-lapdog with *Reuters* for God’s sake.
4. Eric, who is a geek and originally educated as a geek and went to j-school as a second career so to speak, although still young, rapidly realized that among his peers, SL wasn’t cool. Geeks in New York in particular just don’t like SL. They think it’s for losers. It meant suffering constant embarassment at parties and such. And the Reuters top dude, who I happened to bump into at a dinner and mention SL, also didn’t appear to be very thrilled with SL. The virtual bureau was something that happened once when two enthusiastic execs, Philip and a Reuters exec, met at one of those fancy tekkie conferences and yakked it up at the spur of the moment on a high of irrational exhuberence and likely other intoxicants, and then the staff had to follow through on the next day..and the day after…and then management got disinterested and they all wound it down. Happens all the time with management enthusiasms that staff don’t like.
4. Eric could have nevertheless turned this low-paying first-job-after-J-school into something more than he did. He was the most visible journalist in SL during the height of its hype season when everybody from CBS to Wired to CNN was covering it and in it. And all he could do was get a job at Silicon Alley? Well, I suppose any journalist these days, especially “print,” is facing very tough times.
5. Great job or no, Eric could have left gracefully, even though he didn’t leverage his position, but instead, he decided to try to buy himself more street cred with his snarky peers in the Gawker type set by being a douche. I am still trying to understand the animosity involved as nobody really did anything to harm Eric and he only thrived through SL and built his resume. What’s especially offensive of his critique is to make *us* seem like we are uncritical fanatic Kool-Aid drinking loons, when we are even more critical than Eric of LL and SL. In fact, Eric, as ultimately a Reuters suit, would wipe all our comments off the Reuters blog out of a sense of “corporate niceness” and solidarity with fellow corporate Linden Lab at some level.
6. Ian leaving IBM strikes me as in fact INDEED a signal from IBM that they are winding down all this virtual world sillyness and you have to expect that people like Eric will read that obvious signal even as IBM denies it. I think there are different factions at IBM. But it sounds like Eric simply didn’t research this story at all to cover his ass, i.e. by calling various insiders within…gasp…Second Life that he might have logged on to talk to.
I think for a time, IBM, like some goofy old dude of 78 marrying a 20-something to relive his youth and make sure he didn’t miss out on everything before he died, was chasing after SL because they thought it might be something like the PC they missed. They fooled around for a few years and then realized, oh, it’s not. Or at least, oh, it will take a lot more time and won’t be a mass market thing. So they began moving on. They are said to be more in opensim, where they can sandbox around and fool around with the software more than they can in SL. Zha’s interoperability experiment is going nowhere. Even the very big boosters of it in LL were given the brake while the entire thing underwent a very severe review by new management. New management is not interested in opensourcing the server code and interoperability is something they’ve only pursued with IBM…and it hasn’t happened for more than a year and…they’ve just outsourced the entire thing to MMOX where it will languish or bog down in committee. In part, it’s hard. It part they should NOT move to interoperability so casually as they will flush out all the content in SL to pirates. This is a huge battle and I think in part LL’s new alphabet suits pay attention to these concerns more than they did when Cory Linden decided it.
IBM may have some stake in *appearing* to look like they still support SL and still use it for meetings but they have definitely ratcheted down the enthusiasm. You will not see Zha racing on here to say the blog wasn’t updated because…because…”I had to go shopping!”
7. A story that I thought was utterly fake and concocted was the IBM “strike” which was merely the publicity stunt of some union in Italy or something deciding that they could really chafe IBM’s butt by going inside SL, which seemed to be an IBM darling at the time, and using it to strike — it was a stunt, a 3-day wonder that was not something “indigenous” to SL. Eric was right to give that story a pass — although if it had been me, I would have traced the entire fakeness to its roots — the one faction in Italy, the 3-day-olds, etc. and more to the point, I’d have interviewed some of those 200 IBMers we know are in SL who were *not* on strike and *didn’t even know about it*. Yeah, IBM’s a big place, but please…It was just some leftist fake people’s uprising shtick of the sort you see all the time and wasn’t something germane to SL per se other than that parcels were exploited in a publicity stunt.
I also want to set the record straight for both of these macho gonzo journos Hamlet and Eric.
A. I’m the one who broke the story about Copybot for the Herald. Hamlet hates me so much because of my valid and persistent criticism of him that he couldn’t even to my article that broke this story — linking instead to a later story by Pixeleen Mistral. I went on to cover many important stories about Copybot facing profound pressure from the Sheep and other vested parties of the sort Eric or Hamlet have never had to face because they never challenged the powers that be to the extent I have.
B. The Herald also broke the original story about Ginkos *years* before Eric got all exercised about it when Duranske put a bee in his bonnet, and massively.com/Tatero Nino also ran many stories on Ginkos before there even *was* a Reuters. At least he reserves his barb about coverage of “only hot men” for Hamlet — the rest of us were assiduously covering Ginko’s. I got some of the best live reporting from the floor of some of the “stock exchanges” and it was later picked up and used by mainstream media.
Eric could never understand my critique of Duranske as someone getting the story wrong for motivations that seemed to have everything to do with trying to make SL appear as a haven for crime and corruption that only his tribe of lawyers could protect the deluge of corporations from. As soon as Duranske figured out there were not going to be any big corporations requiring his services for these things and that the Lindens themselves dealt with crime and some of the corporations eased out, he went and got a real job.
Ultimately, Eric suffers from geek class warfare syndrome. He can’t seem to affirm the identity of his own tribe of geeks and elite cultural workers without putting down people of mass culture. Lots of people love dancing and cybersex in SL. It’s not for the urbane sophisticates of gawker.com So what? Leave them alone? I find it boring to dance most of the time too, but given how many other interesting things there are to do in SL, so what?
The snarky elitist geeky metrosexual sort of culture that Erik imbibed in school and regurgitates in his online tech gossip sheet now once seemed impervious and unstoppable. But with the Recession, they, too have gotten a slap in the face. Valleywag.com is going under. Even wire reporters are getting fired, along with print reporters. Journalists are going into government or non-profits where perhaps they always belonged.
Dusan, thank you for setting the record straight. So many misguided writings about our industry that are thrown out there into the mix so willy-nilly. You sir, are a God send.
Eric Krangel is well-known to spread misinformation about Second Life.
Also – since when protesters that don’t give their name to journalists are ‘wankers’? This is shameful, Krangel.
[...] lo que más extraña es que Linden Lab lo hiciera de una forma confidencial. Cómo menciona Dusan Writer en su blog, aunque LL es dueña de su base de datos, ellos adquieren publicidad de medios como los [...]
I really don’t understand why Eric has to be burned down here. He raises some valid points, though somewhat bitterly perhaps, but as observations & news they are worth mentioning and talking about, but you and Hamlet seem to be out to get ‘him’.
For example, IBM’s evangelists have become a lot more quiet everywhere. The ‘case study’ is far from conclusive ‘evidence’ IBM is still in SL at the same level they were 3/4 years ago. (The case study is shallow and quite frankly, a little bit of a joke – not unlike most things I’ve seen from IBM in the public space on virtual worlds: PPT’s on immersive presentation, the horrible presentation spaces in ActiveWorlds and the hilarious Lotus integration video just to name a few).
You don’t have to agree, but these are his observations, and they make a lot of sense to a lot of people (as well as SL being a niche product and ‘SL dancing is not for everyone’).
Maybe I read a lot of Erics findings and ‘frustrations’ in my own, which is why I am a little surprised to see the pitchforks here
Oh, Dusan, that’s lovely and heartbreaking.
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[...] “Second Life is a Terrarium” and Second Life business meetings are better than real ones because you can wear a funny hat. [...]
[...] and he does himself no favours with credibility. After taking snipes at New World Notes in the comments of Dusan’s blog, I’m certainly left with no doubt at his lack of [...]
[...] and he does himself no favours with credibility. After taking snipes at New World Notes in the comments of Dusan’s blog, I’m certainly left with no doubt at his lack of [...]
[...] of economist Edward Castranova’s second book, Exodus to the Virtual World (read my commentary here). In that book, Castranova argued that virtual worlds are both fun, and that they can manipulated [...]
Robert Bloomfield is ridiculous. I’m glad that you have the courage to criticize him even though you are sponsoring him.
He’s typical of the narrow-minded specialists that you find in the university now, especially in business, who completely repudiate the humanities and don’t seem to be encumbered by any humanities education themselves.
Perhaps you know the story of C.P. Snow and his essay “The Two Cultures”. At the time he wrote that critique, the pendulum was at another place in the arc, and scientists were feeling under appreciated in the 1950s, and trying to gain access to power in a society dominated by those who were educated in the humanities.
Now, the pendulum has swung all the way over to science, and far more than Snow saw it, to the point of utterly crushing the humanities as non-fact based. I can just hear some of the loons of MMOX and AWGroupies crabbing every five minutes that a claim made by cultural anthropology is “not a falsifiable proposition” or contains a logical fallacy blah blah.
Tom indeed spent a lot of time inworld. He formed a large group of enthusiasts and met with them every week to talk about their experiences. He interviewed avatars endlessly. Tom is all about inworld. There was no ivory tower. And I’m not seeing what is so precious about “Open Sim” here, as if you can’t experiment in Second Life. Huh?
As for Castronova, I find his book sinister, quite frankly. You don’t go far enough in explaining it: what he actually advocates is figuring out how the autonomous nervous system experiences “fight or flight” and “pleasure or pain” work and then hooking people up to virtual worlds and MMORPGs better — and taking the elements of games and incorporating them into real life, like “The Ministry of Fun”. Awful stuff.
What I find duplicitous, too, is that these figures are riding the tide of virtual worlds and social media and all the freedoms and chaos and creative destruction blah blah that they imply, but then inserting very authoritarian agendas on to them.
Take this quote, from an interview from Beth Noveck, who is now in the U.S. government’s Office of Technology, where in fact enthusiasts have just inserted a wiki for civil servants to work:
“When we talk about citizen participation in government, we’re so often talking about tapping into people’s feelings and judgments, says Noveck. Peer-to-Patent [Noveck's crowd-sourcing of patent critiques--PN] works by focusing on fact-based expertise. “The idea of a free-for-all, of putting something up on a wiki,” Noveck says, “is terrible.” But when you architect a system with structured roles and group checks on individuals, it seems like wider civic engagement online is possible.”
http://www.nancyscola.com/articleswritings/better-patents-through-crowdsourcing/
Indeed. It’s like they are inflicting the wiki only to destroy, then laying over that a terrible grid of social controls where there are “group checks on individuals”.
My fierce attacks against tekkies, which you only mildly echo here, are pretty much based on their repudiation and scorn of the humanities, even as they use completely outrageous non-scientific methods themselves.
Bloomfield and other economists/stockbrokers should read The (Mis)Behavior of Markets by Benoit Mandelbrot and Richard L. Hudson (2004). Mandelbrot brought us fractals and wrote as early as 1961 on the non-linearity of finance. The point being that all the math used by brokers and most economists is based on an erroneous assumption.
Also consult Nelson and Winter (1982) An evolutionary theory of economic change. Winter points out errors made by the standard economic theory.
Winter and Mandelbrot do not necessarily agree, except that classic economic theory is flawed and does not describe what empirical evidence shows.
Well, certainly I wouldn’t go so far as to say Bloomfield is ridiculous, and that certainly he isn’t extrapolating to the degree that Castranova does which, I agree, is sinister (and again, I reference back to my original post on his last book).
Bloomfield’s intent was perhaps far less sinister – to use the “language” of code and testable hypotheses to encourage “world developers” to expand their repertoire beyond the code and into discussions of human sociality and culture.
Unfortunately, he couples this with the claim that theory needs data when perhaps a better model is that theories are only testable via hypotheses, and that hypotheses can be tested only through research. Where he REALLY falls down is in assuming that research methods that include observation, which is a significant basis of the humanities, arrive at fundamentally less significant truths than hard facts.
If we were really all rational actors, then maybe we wouldn’t be in this mess we’re in, but the reality is we’re not, which supports the argument that perhaps science leaves off at the humanities rather than the humanities leaving off at science.
The classic definition of science is only the systematic application of knowledge, which means butterfly collecting (as long as you classify your collection’s specimens) is science.
Quantitative people deride “butterfly collection” as not “real science” because it is not predictive. Experiments *require* a theory propose a result before the experiment, so the theory can either become stronger (the expected result) or be thrown into doubt (an unexpected, but more interesting result).
Anthropologists are mostly butterfly collectors. Little experimentation has occurred and the morality of such experimentation is very in doubt. Read the human subjects rules for any university funded research to see how much damage the excesses of the 60s and 70s did to the field. Virtual worlds provide a unique opportunity to create “safer” experiments though, and so I can see how people from the quantitative world would *expect* anthropologists to want do such experiments.
Butterfly collectors aren’t used to running the risk of a theory being shaken by experimentation though, and the idea of building such experiments is tainted by the past, so I doubt one will see many.
Quantitative science does represent a maturation of a science though… chemistry was once “butterfly collecting” (the line between alchemy and chemistry was blurry for a very long time). I have my doubts about anthropology ever crossing that line though because the data set, at the end of the day, is one.
I found this show very disappointing. I made time out of a busy day to attend it because I was looking forward to hearing two highly-intelligent explorers of virtual worlds present their insights. Having sponsored 2 discussions that Tom led inworld, I am well aware of what an excellent experience that can be. Instead, I got way too much Bloomfield and not nearly enough Boellstorff and Pierce.
Bloomfield’s lengthy piece at the end seemed more focused on “hey academics, here’s a new way to get funding” than on any useful research agenda. The last thing we need inworld is a pack of newbie graduate students who believe SL is a platform they can manipulate for their dissertation research.
Thanks for the thoughtful responses. This is not the first time I have been criticized for expressing this type of viewpoint, and it won’t be the last. (Take a look at the responses to my first post on Terra Nova from June 2007.. Here are just a few quick responses.
First, theories in both anthropology and economics purport to impose useful structure on the world as we see it. Empirical research–whether participant observation, econometric analysis or experimentation—gives researchers a way to change those theories for the better. The more convincing the data and method, the more likely it is to change the mind of someone who has already accepted the theory and is using it to structure their own view of the world. Casual interviews and observations, punditry–even fiction and poetry–can provide helpful evidence on ways to see the world. But the softer the methods, the easier it is for everyone, researchers and readers alike, to see the results as supporting whatever they want to and already believe. Harder evidence puts more stress on the theory. Yes, Boellstorff is right that lots of empirical research is not particularly persuasive, and that some questions are not amenable to measurement. But when you see a tool that allows you to test *some* theories in a more rigorous way, I think it is a mistake to reject these methods wholesale.
To apply this to the current financial crisis, I would argue that many risk models were simply not tested enough before being implemented. The theories seemed to make sense, but the experts knew that they were being applied in settings that didn’t exactly match the underlying assumptions. (In particular, market outcomes don’t follow the assumed bell curve perfectly–extremely bad news is slightly overrepresented). However, no one bothered to test whether those rather slight mismatches result in major problems. Since everything seemed to be going well, everyone was happy with storytelling.
Second, my purpose was to point out experimentation as a possible *addition* to the pantheon of anthropological research, not a replacement. Of course participant observation is a helpful method, and I am glad people are doing it–especially as a first pass when theory is very rough. But many of the social sciences that resist experimentation and statistical methods fail to push their theories far enough. This lets people cling to their own pet theories more easily, rather than having to justify them and refine them as people provide counterexamples that aren’t easily wished away.
As an example, I would point out that A. Draken is right–for decades people doubted many of the premises of traditional economics. But no one bought into the alternative–behavioral economics–until repeated experiments showed that it had greater predictive power. Now, behavioral theories abound in economics, for the simple reason that it was so hard to argue with the evidence.
Third, I am surprised (again!) by the resistance of virtual world devotees to the idea that researchers might conduct what are essentially clinical trials for virtual worlds–particularly from Dusan, who deals with drug companies as part of his day job. Drug companies do clinical trials before releasing a drug to the world. Why shouldn’t virtual world makers do the same before they release a world to the world? What better way to learn whether a certain type of orientation or technical feature would reduce griefing or some other undesirable behavior–for, as Dusan puts it, ‘the shared betterment of society’. It might have been nice if we had done some clinical trials with the risk models that turned out to have some rather awful side effects in our financial markets!
What surprises me even more is this: why assume that, because I propose clinical trials based on anthropological theory, that I must think anthropology is bunk, and that I must want to start drugging and vivisecting virtual natives. I wouldn’t have proposed these notions unless I thought anthropological theories could actually help us predict the development of culture in virtual worlds. And hey–if I wanted to experiment of residents of an already existing world, I would have proposed that. But I think that is a terrible idea, in part because it would largely defeat the purpose of a controlled experiment in which the researchers are able to manipulate their variables.
Naturally, this won’t be the last word–maybe we need a Bloomfield-Castronova-Malaby-Boellstorff debate on Metanomics sometime soon.
Rob
p.s. Riven, sorry you got ‘way too much Bloomfield.’ I am still learning how to get out of the way and let my guests have the floor. Maybe next time….
Thanks for stating your concerns concisely and straightforwardly, Robert. My major response is what you are framing as an opposition between anthropological and economic theory is actually not that at all. The limits of experimentation in the *natural sciences* are well-known, as we have plenty of examples of “hard sciences” that do not rely to a great degree on experimentation at all (geology, paleontology, astronomy, to name a few).
The problem here is one of scientific epistemology. It seems that it is often those outside of the natural sciences (I’m sorry to say, most often in economics) who are unaware of the epistemological issues here. I remember hearing a wonderful presentation on river formation from a geologist, for whom the key aim of science was *not* prediction, but rather an understanding of the specific processes at work in a specific site at a specific time. Much of science is this. We do not seek only to predict, for as Maxwell has told us, how regular, how timeless, do we actually think the world is?
What is the difference? What makes some science more particularist and some more generalizable? It is not hard or soft, it is a question of time and change. See my post here on Terra Nova about this issue: http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2008/05/virtual-general.html. In short, experimental methodologies and “exploratory” ones are actually all on a spectrum, with true replicability (there’s the importance of scientific epistemology to this discussion again) impossible. When we have good reasons to expect that conditions are not in the midst of significant and fundamental change, we can tack closer toward the experimental end of the spectrum in our methods, but when we have many contingencies in play (especially with humans involved, but this is not necessary), then particularist inquiries help us get at the processes in place in specific circumstances.
This is, in a way, the Darwinian legacy in science — a recognition of the limits of our ability to generalize in the midst of a messy and open-ended (not law-driven) world.
Speaking of predictability or generalizability thus excludes a lot of what actual scientists actually do, and comes to stand instead as a bludgeon that some (social) scientists use to denigrate other fields. To hold predictability and testing up as the sine qua non of knowledge production is I am sorry to say, to demonstrate a somewhat impoverished notion of what empirical inquiry can and should be.
This is an interesting discussion, and I think it would be better if it didn’t become a debate as Rob suggest – I don’t see much to gain in partisan ‘my science is harder than your science’ squabble. We’ve got uncharted seas in front of us and an argumentative, greedy, egotistical ship of fools is not good company.
I added “greedy” to the list since empirical science and economics being mentioned made me think of the US congress playing grab-ass while the economy craters. Do any of you really think what happened to the economy was because of a bad set of scientific theory? Because that is what it sounded like. What are the metrics/equations for greed, graft, unaccountability, and then raw panic and fear? The reason why we have “soft” science is so far, humans are not controlled nor fathomed that precisely. Maybe at singularity 1.9
Really, prok, the pendulum is set to science? Maybe only relative to humanities, but with science literacy at large at about the feral neko level, I don’t expect the average avatar checking or understanding the methodology or statistical strength of anything soon, sadly enough.
Next, there seems to be a suspicion and fear of experimentation in virtual worlds, as if the only way to test and understand human behavior is a mad scientist/SciFi scenario. Most social and other scientists do follow codes of ethics and otherwise respect the privacy and safety of their subjects. If you want to be paranoid, there are plenty others watching your buying and other behaviors, and they are not some academics out for a good paper, but blood sucking leeches you find after swimming in the slip streams of media and merchandising.
Overall, I have to agree with Garret. Dusan is calling out quotes that make me wince, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Not being articulated is what aspects of human communication are being engaged in SL that are not engaged in a VTC, telecon, or tele-web meeting? What are the pros and cons of meeting someone in SL versus RL? What will it really take to operationalize virtual worlds to replace getting on a plane and flying to conduct real business in meatspace?
Dusan, thanks for explaining it so that I could understand that what I thought I heard Bloomfield saying was indeed what Bloomfield was saying.
Although … I really hate to give up the idea that I was just hugely distracted and must surely have misunderstood something.
Pity.
Dusan – thanks for posting this commentary. All these comments are great.
The problem with what Rob did wasn’t just what Rob said, but that he tacked his commentary onto the end of what was supposed to be a conversation, with no advance warning and no opportunity for Celia and I to respond. That’s not dialogue.
There are broader issues here that Rob is not addressing. To claim, for instance, that “the softer the methods, the easier it is for everyone, researchers and readers alike, to see the results as supporting whatever they want to and already believe” is simply incorrect. It is ideology parading as analysis. That statement places all methods on a single scale from “hard” to “soft” without a clear explanation of what that metaphor of softness and hardness references. Methods differ in a range of ways – that is, along a range of axes – and they cannot be lined up like ducks in a row on a single scale from hard to soft.
It’s funny that Rob says the following to you, Dusan: “I am surprised (again!) by the resistance of virtual world devotees to the idea that researchers might conduct what are essentially clinical trials for virtual worlds–particularly from Dusan, who deals with drug companies as part of his day job. Drug companies do clinical trials before releasing a drug to the world. Why shouldn’t virtual world makers do the same before they release a world to the world?”
Perhaps the difference is that human beings aren’t the same thing as drugs? If you take a certain chemical (i.e. drug) with the same structure in the same amount, you can assume the effect is the same. 1 pill of aspirin is interchangeable with another pill of aspirin if they’re made with the same concentration, etc. But people (and many other things in the world) are not so interchangeable.
I think of my work in Indonesia. The issue is not only that it’s not feasible to put one group of Indonesians on one island, and another group on another island, and see which ones end up defining themselves as “gay” in some fashion. The issue is that these Indonesian identities have come into being in historical time, and you can’t set up an experiment to show why these identities have come into being. This whole debate is a great example of why it’s helpful to look beyond virtual worlds and see how many of these issues are relevant to actual-world cultures too.
As I’ve said over and over, there are economists out there doing great work and really contributing to a better understanding of virtual worlds. But the experimental methods that seem to be favored by a good number of economists doing work in virtual worlds are not the only valid method (contra Castronova, and so far as I can tell, Bloomfield as well).
What is of the greatest concern to me is that based on some writings of Castronova, and the way Bloomfield set up our Metanomics event, they aren’t really listening. A particular approach from economics is getting set forth as the most valid method (even as the only legitimate method) for researching virtual worlds. And in this point in time when a vibrant, exciting, diverse community of researchers of virtual worlds is growing and forming, that kind of methodological partisanship is simply not helpful. More debate, more real conversation, is sorely needed.
@Tom,since last June we have closed Metanomics with a short op-ed (usually, but not always, by me). When I write them, I do so after the pre-interview but before the show, and voice them at the very end. This format is pretty common in talk shows, but certainly makes it hard for the op-ed to be a ‘dialogue.’ If you have suggestions for other formats (including dropping this segment of the show, so we have more time for dialogue), I’d love to hear them.
On the substance of Tom’s remarks, let me say (again) that I don’t believe that the only way to do research is the way I do research. Thus, Tom and I are in strong agreement on his concluding point–let’s foster research with a variety of methods, relying on a variety of theories, addressing a variety of topics.
The funny thing is, I thought that is what I did, suggesting one possibility in particular. After our pre-interview discussion, and reading a number of studies by you and Celia (and some others in your journal)–and particularly thinking about our discussion of how small technical features of a virtual world might alter the culture that arises there–I thought to myself “wow, here is a great opportunity to wed some ideas that come a largely non-experimental discipline to experimental methods, and learn something new in a way that can both advance theory and have practical applications for world developers.”
So far, none of the reactions have made me question this original thought. They do, however, make me want to spend some time rethinking how to make this point without implying that cultural anthropologists are not ‘real scientists,’ that methods other than experimentation are invalid, and the like. Maybe anthropologists have heard one too many helpful suggestions like this….
The debate reminds me of one that has been happening in legal research. A handful of lawyers are now conducting statistical research actually trying to model and predict the decisions of judges, criminals and institutions. Justifying this addition to the literature is often taken as disparaging existing legal research methods. Some empiricists might make this argument, I think it is rather silly. But I think the opponents of empirical methods are on even weaker ground.
Great discussion. I take as a given that your intention was a good one, and I said that in my initial post, Rob…the purpose of the ‘Connecting the Dots’ is, I suppose, a chance to kick-start follow-up discussions, so I’m glad those discussions found a home here and elsewhere.
A few comments, I suppose. Rob, clearly it’s useful to review a range of methodologies and disciplines for the study of virtual and actual culture. I can’t help feeling like you’re arguing a particular mind set, and a particular bias, from a place that’s, hmmm, well, I hate to say it – but a little arrogant.
I would have LOVED to hear you say something along the following lines:
“Speaking with Celia and Tom, and having read some of their reviews and articles, I’ve become aware that the “hard science” of accounting and economics would be well served by methodologies that I might have, at one time, considered too “soft”. Because let me be the first to admit: human nature just isn’t as measurable and testable as us folks with our spread sheets and empirical tests might like.
“Take the financial crisis – the reality is, it would have been nice to properly test the theories of risk reduction or how markets move through hype cycles and bubbles. In spite our best efforts over 100s of years, however, we haven’t really come up with a good answer yet, so I won’t hold out a lot of hope that we’ll solve that problem in the near term, not on our own, anyways, and not easily.
“Human nature being what it is, and economists being human – we were perhaps overly anxious to put the models to work when Wall Street came calling – there’s a certain joy in getting work “into the real world”, these things can’t sit in a lab forever, our reasoning goes.
“But even if we HAD been able to empirically test, (and let me state my bias in saying that experimental accounting is the frame from which I view these issues), clearly even well-tested theories end up facing the messy, emotional, and behaviorally erratic fact of human nature. If we’ve learned anything in virtual worlds it’s that emotions can run high, and I believe they can run high in virtual worlds because when the hard science bumps up against those other, immeasurable things like creativity, love, passion, hope and fear – well, the two can sometimes be reconciled, but not always.
“What I’ve learned today is that there’s a wonderful combination of disciplines that have found a common ground – and the common ground are these virtual worlds where there are dreamers and artists, coders and academics, scientists and mathematicians, and people who treat these places as home.
“I’d hope that the tools with which virtual worlds can be built provide fertile opportunities for empirical studies across the disciplines – opportunities to measure social connectivity, to extrapolate data and test points, to study the exact impact of things like the Linden dollar supply or the cost of land. But I’d also hope that those of us in the ‘hard sciences’ can also learn, by virtue of being in a cross-disciplinary world, that there may be virtue and value in getting away from our spread sheets a little and looking thoughtfully at how people like Tom and Celia draw insights that are profound and meaningful, and do so not because they have more rows or columns in their spread sheets, but do so because they bring proven methodologies for extrapolating meaning from observation, from anecdote, from story, from the “mess” of human nature.
“The financial crisis shows us something important: the data points that don’t meet our bell curves are often the most important ones – those are the stories that happen at the edges, the ones that often include human emotions like hope, fear, and greed. Those edge cases, the ones that don’t meet our notions of a “homogeneous mass”, are the ones that hold some of the burning insights that can help us craft new ways forward in recognition of both provable and verifiable data, and our humanity.
“This is highly encouraging – this shared environment, these shared worlds, open the opportunity for us empiricists to sit down and understand how anthropology could very well be a missing piece in how we measure markets and human nature. And, I hope, can be a place where anthropologists can take advantage of the fact that some of the variables are controlled – intentionally or not, as we sometimes see with changes made by platform owners like the Lindens, or like Robin’s experiments in creating a new culture that suits a particular goal.”
“Virtual worlds offer a field in which we can both observe, through the endless data stream, the numbers and formulas and testable hypotheses, but they also offer the chance for folks like myself to embrace the concept that we do not live in intellectual silos anymore, we can not afford to sit in our arm chairs while the world shifts and changes and seemingly tilts on its axis into the future.
“Virtual worlds provide the hope that in this collapsed geography, in these new cultures, we can find clues to our own humanity, whether measured with yard sticks or whether measured in the stories we tell.”
I’m surprised at the reception of Castranova’s book – I found it full of interesting ideas. What is sinister about extrapolating from an obvious trend and trying to find some lessons for the real world?
I agree with some comments re “too much Bloomfield” – I would think most people watch Metanomics for the guests, not for the host (as charming as Robert can be).
@Dusan, this is hardly the first time I have been called arrogant, and unless the call for “less Bloomfield” turns into “no Bloomfield,” I’m sure it won’t be the last.
Virtual worlds are indeed a useful common meeting ground for people with very different perspectives on research, politics and life. I think many of us are here precisely for this type of cross-pollination. If we are lucky, we will be able to move this particular conversation forward, and not get mired in the academic version of ‘culture wars.’
It won’t be easy…
I’d like to append a little comment here about clinical trials. Robert is right, this is an area that we know something about, however he partly misses the mark – in fact, our entire business is based on the fact that the “empirical data” is less than ideal.
The reality of clinical trials is that they bump up against many of the same issues that have been discussed in these comments: there is a bell curve, so to speak….but what’s challenging isn’t the ‘homogeneous mass’ it’s the fact that most people aren’t ‘measurable’ against the criteria of clinical trials.
Most trials are organized to provide clarity of end points: usually mortality and morbidity. As such, they select patients based on criteria that will provide conclusive statistical direction to the results. Yes, this is empirical, and it’s useful, but our work is primarily focused on the fact that the vast majority of patients don’t fit the neat categories studied in trials – and so it takes observation, qualitative approaches, and judgment on behalf of professionals.
The idea that clinical trials can lead to cook book medicine (the application of empirical evidence to algorithms for patient care in all cases) is a fallacy, just as I believe there are few areas that involve human nature where empirical studies will ever be able to create formulas or algorithms to map out what people do, how they think, or their state of wellness.
To take a simple example: most clinical trials study heart drugs by recruiting patients who have heart disease. Simple enough – gives a nice “clean” end point. But the people who are EXCLUDED from the trials are more like what a physician SEES: the patients who also have diabetes, obesity, depression, or a host of other concomitant conditions.
As a result, physicians use the empirical evidence as a base line, but the reality of practice is they need to use anecdotes, personal experience (i.e. “stories”) to make decisions against those pesky patients who don’t conform to the data.
Finally, one of the challenges with clinical data is that much of it doesn’t include measurement of quality of life data…a significant oversight, especially in areas like oncology where there are marginal differences between mortality and morbidity results, and the impact of lower side effects can’t be quantified by simple “spread sheets” – how a patient feels about their treatment, the quality of their life on one drug over another – not usually measured, and even when it is there is dispute over the measurement scales.
Because of all these factors, the leading thinkers in the field of medicine, anyway, recognize the combination of evidence with clinical judgment and have created useful models that integrate empirical with qualitative methodologies.
I don’t disagree that the empirical data is the foundation piece in the case of medicine for testing efficacy and safety (let’s not talk about how even the approval of something so based on “hard science” can be impacted by human nature, politics and greed, OK?).
So you’re right – but please don’t hold clinical trials up as an example of a field that is able to provide a role model for an ‘empirical approach’ because the truth is far removed from that reality.
@Iyan – Are we talking about the same book?
Castranova proposes that we take the lessons from how the users of virtual worlds can be manipulated through sensory programming and apply that lesson to manipulating users in the “real world” through similar approaches.
Look – it happens already. Stores program their environments with music, smell, sight, lights to try to get you to BUY more. Castranova takes this further, and proposes turning work into a programmed game where we remain productive because the “system” has been constructed with these findings in mind: that individuals can be manipulated to feel like they’re having more fun, even when it’s as boring as farming herbs in Warcraft for hours on end, or completing a “kill quest” that takes hours and hours of endless grinding.
A few select quotes from Castranova:
“Clearly, it is a challenge to make people happy through manipulation of the social order. Yet this is precisely the challenge that virtual-world designers have faced and mastered.”
“There is also a distinct relationship between motivational systems and human emotions. For one thing, emotions come later…stimuli that engage the motivational system more powerfully will have a greater effect on the emotional system….In other words, the game is designed to be so enjoyable and fun that you lose yourself in it.”
“This is clearly a fast-moving field, but the point is, joys, and probably fun too, can be obtained and even increased when a person’s environment is correctly designed.”
You don’t find anything, um, disturbing in Castranova’s proposal that we “manipulate the social order?”
I parallel this with the following quote:
“The intent is to change a mind so that its owner becomes a living puppet – a human robot – without the atrocity being visible from the outside. The aim is to create a mechanism in flesh and blood, with new beliefs and new thought processes inserted into a captive body. What that amounts to is (a race) always amenable to orders, like an insect to its instincts. (Edward Hunter, Brainwashing)”
@Dusan
I think that you are, in effect, frightened by some phrases – and do not see the forest for the trees. The crux of Castranova’s position, as I understood it, was:
* there will come a time when virtual worlds will be in direct competition with real worlds (how many children play in the playgrounds today versus when we were young?)
* for the real world to compete, it has to change – because, right now, it is mostly no fun at all.
He then tried to show that some concepts we take for granted are proved false by the virtual environments – basically, how we perceive things like reward, fun, equality etc, and tried to apply the lessons learned by the virtual world designers in the real world.
An aside: It’s only in virtual worlds that there is an actual evolution of environments, because there is competition and things can change quickly – that’s why they are such great experimentation tools.
What’s wrong with shaping the environment? Do you have the same complaints against Friedman’s book “Hot, flat and crowded”, for example? It does the same thing – points out what works, what doesn’t and what should be done to ensure a sustainable future.
Do you think it is not shaped now? It definitely is – by the corporations, mass media, marketing departments, and some governments (although their influence wanes). What do you prefer – an environment focused on unbridled consumerism (which is, I think, what we have now), or one focused on the happiness of individuals?
Mind you – I come from an ex-communist country, so I am very familiar with the effects of over-shaping the environment. However, the current eco-political situation is a bad advertisement for the laissez-faire approach to it, too. There must be a middle way – and Castranova only tries to point out some potential paths.
celia a “well respected anthropologist?” who says?
You all are so FULL of it:0) At least her punditry on Interactive Design has over 20 years experience in the field to back up her views.
Celia Pearce/Biography
Celia Pearce is a game designer, author, researcher, teacher, curator and artist, specializing in multiplayer gaming and virtual worlds, independent, art, and alternative game genres, as well as games and gender. She began designing interactive attractions and exhibitions in 1983, and has held academic appointments since 1998. Her game designs include the award-winning virtual reality attraction Virtual Adventures (for Iwerks and Evans & Sutherland) and the Purple Moon Friendship Adventure Cards for Girls. She received her Ph.D. in 2006 from SMARTLab Centre, then at Central Saint Martins College of Art and Design, University of the Arts London. She currently is Assistant Professor of Digital Media in the School of Literature, Communication and Culture at Georgia Tech, where she also directs the Experimental Game Lab and the Emergent Game Group. She is the author or co-author of numerous papers and book chapters, as well as The Interactive Book (Macmillan 1997) and the forthcoming Communities of Play: Emergent Cultures in Multiplayer Games and Virtual Worlds (MIT 2009). She has also curated new media, virtual reality, and game exhibitions and is currently Festival Chair for IndieCade, an international independent games festival and showcase series. She is a co-founder of the Ludica women’s game collective.
It’s hard not to appreciate the timing of this article in The New Republic, by Leon Wieseltier:
“In Tough Times, the Humanities Must Justify Their Worth.” So The New York Times announced this week, in a report that made a grim country feel grimmer. “Previous economic downturns have often led to decreased enrollment in the disciplines loosely grouped under the term ‘humanities’–which generally include languages, literature, the arts, history, cultural studies, philosophy, and religion. Many in the field worry that in this current crisis those areas will be hit hardest.” The complaint against the humanities is that they are impractical. This is true. They will not change the world. They will change only the experience, and the understanding, and the evaluation, of the world. Since interpretation is the distinctively human activity, instruction in the traditions of interpretation should hardly be controversial–except in a society that mistakes practice for a philosophy. It is worth remembering, then, that the crisis in which we find ourselves was the work of practical men. The securitization of mortgages was not conceived by a head in the clouds. No poet cost anybody their house. No historian cost anybody their job. Not even the most pampered of professors ever squandered $87,000 of someone else’s money on a little rug. The creativity of bankers is a luxury that we can no longer afford. But now I read about “defending the virtues of the liberal arts in a money-driven world,” as the Times says. I would have thought that in these times the perspective of money would be ashamed to show itself. “
Year, second life will be the furture, or one part of the furture of our life. But the main problem is, that the companies, which get in, want to invest only some dollars. If they buy a TV-spot, there is a lot of money. If these guys goes in second life,think, all is cheap. But u must invest real time, to go forward! The companies in Sl will be the winner in the next years! I believe!
Kudos to NCSU for seizing a great opportunity. As organizations in the public and private sector look to cut costs and still provide a quality training environment, the virtual classroom offers both.
While the thought of “going virtual” may seem uncomfortable to older generations of workers who are used to receiving their training face-to-face, younger employees entering the work force are very comfortable with the virtual learning technology.
Here at The Brooks Group, we’re a professional sales and sales management training company, and we’re in the process of launching our own virtual training facility, using Second Life. Many of our long-term clients are expressing interest in this option because the virtual classroom completely wipes out travel costs and travel times. The savings in time and dollars are enormous to any company that wants to provide quality training to its team.
Kevin Reinert
Chief Operating Officer
The Brooks Group
[...] on virtual worlds directed at teens and tweens, but still, the content focus was narrower than a previous one we [...]
[...] piece “Portrait of an Artist as an Avatar” in the New York Times that we wrote about a few days ago – the emerging Second Life arts happenings are nearly invisible to the mainstream [...]
hi this is naveen i work with 3ds max very fluently but i dnt know how can i export into sl am not talking abt sculpt primes or object am talking abt building chairs furnitures etc and wer every i searc all are incomplet can you sugges me little .
and please dont give me any link abt that i allready been all links its all are useless and iam not understand wer i have to go
Naveen – Currently, you can not import mesh objects into Second Life. Second Life objects are based on prims – prims do not convert to mesh and mesh does not convert to prims. SL does not therefore provide a link to common 3D development pipelines such as Collada or to common file formats such as OBJ.
Sorry I can’t help – although you might want to look at platforms like RealXtend which do support import of OBJ files, Google Sketch-Up, 3DS, etc.
I was really happy that a major critic like John Terauds was able to come out to a virtual concert. I had been talking it up to him for a fair amount of time! He seemed to really enjoy himself, and like me, find the relaxed atmosphere and genuine engagment with the music very refreshing.
[...] Taking aim at Congressmen, corporations, and a hypothetical flood of future users, Linden Lab announced today that it was planning to force a large chunk of its customer base in Second Life to relocate, creating an ‘adult-oriented’ continent and tagging its databases so that users can be better assured that they can toggle all that smutty adult-type stuff on and off based on how puritanical they feel. The move opens the door to the merger of the Teen Grid with Second Life, a move hinted at by Philip Rosedale on a recent episode of Metanomics, and to the kind of mass cultural and economic change that maybe only the anthropologists and accountants would love. [...]
The kids virtual worlds have lessons all right, like “how to be a good consumer and never be satisfied with what you’ve got,” and “you must have Product X or you will be a social retard.”
[...] prior to Philip stepping down (or is it up?) from his role as CEO I wrote: “So here’s the vision: use code to enable a society built on the idea of collaborative [...]
This is nothing but bad news. Attempts to child-proof the real world invariably fail, and if SL is altered to mirror RL, then those efforts will fail inworld as well.
If Linden wants to ensure a mass exodus to its first viable competitor (and even to hasten its arrival on the scene), this is a surefire way to do it.
Lets off a huge yeehaw on the first hour experience. Sounds like the new “continent” will house 90% of the official “gateway” portals!
What is the first question the hordes of mass-media following newbies ask? No comment, but in virtual London they get sent to Soho – not some nether-region removed from the greater social complex that may ultimately widen their interest in exploring virtual presence in all its myriad uses.
Exactly what the “sensibilities” of residents are that preclude the presence of something that merely replicates the complexities of real life human society are beyond me. or maybe LL still think they are running a “game” platform – Sin Sims instead of Sin City.
Personally I can live without the “one-track-mind” sin-seekers intruding in places they are less than welcome, but segregation seems far worse. What next – virtual apartheid.
You all still dont get it…
RISK, GAMING, NOT BUSINESS drives LL and their ilk.
BTW, Bernie Madoff just made that same “Risk-gaming” argument as he was arraigned today in court.
never trust a burning man to have any interest but his own.
more real? lol
Hey everyone, read the official blog post and participate in the forums here. You have an opportunity to affect how this project evolves. https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/community/blog/2009/03/12/upcoming-changes-for-adult-content
Btw, the “more real” language was from an earlier blog post that I shared with Dusan. We removed it because people misunderstood it. As Cyn comments in the forums “Basically, we are trying for the majority of Second Life to just be… life. Any form, format, or point of view you like, in what we now call the mature area – sort of like the town square. The very sexually explicit and extremely violent, we want to have in a location you choose to go to, just as you would in the “real world”.
Cell phone 3d microcommerce? ill have a jetpack sooner.
Someone ENGAGED! but used the “reverse pedal”.
Same “revelations” that web3d conference goers had in 2001.
RESULTS.
I say it’s about time. Even people who like to have sex in SL get tired of being propositioned all the time or having erections show up at meetings.
I always thought that if any company could make a successful go in SL and understand how to do it, it would be Disney. But I knew SL with it’s wild “Boogie Nights” culture, they would never come here.
SL is a business and it needs business venture money to fuel it’s growth. Unfortunately that means this kind of change was inevitable. From what I’ve read, they don’t plan to haul us old timers to the T&A island. But serious kink stuff will be moved.
At heart, I don’t think it would change our day to day SL life. But what it would change is the comfortable mindset. We would still go about our business but now everyone will be paranoid and jumping at shadows.
Personlly, I’m not worried but I’m not excited about the changes either.
They threw the “Adult” designation into the source code months ago back in Fall ‘08, before there was even a hint of an announced merger of the TG/MG or a sweeping policy on adult content. I feel very bad for anyone who thinks that their opinion matter much, because these forum threads should be considered–at best–feelers into how the community might react once the decisions that have already been made will be implemented. For example, you would have to be *insane* to think that LL’s broken account-verification system would be adequate, yet that’s what they’re claiming. If you read the first Linden posts, you’ll even notice phrases like “We’ve carefully researched the anticipated impact.” If they already have “adequate research,” why are they even bothering to ask what residents think? Because they know it’ll be an even bigger PR nightmare than openspaces if they upheave the Adult community and don’t at least *pretend* to give the people they’re upheaving a voice.
All of this, of course, is well within they’re right. They own the grid, they can shove around people as much as they want. I just wish they would stop being so disingenuous about it one of these days; it’s just pathetic in this case.
I agree, btw, that they’re most likely “sanitizing” the mainland for corporate interests. That’s always been the teet they’ve tried to suckle, even though their support for enterprise needs is ludicrously lacking. My predictions for the ramifications: the new Adult ghetto will fail horribly; the glut of adult products will face harsher competition with their customer base shrinking (as many people work/buy in clearly adult areas without having payment info on file), and many of them will go under. Meanwhile, the mentors–the largest glut of the populace who even knows what an Abuse Report is, let alone how to use it–will be given next to no guidance by LL, and once it *is* somewhat given eventually it’ll probably be too late to prevent the massive amount of headaches that always ensue when residents want to use the world in one way, and LL wants them to use it in another. As adult businesses begin to close, expect another crop of dissatisfied customers to head to OpenSim and await full interop. Despite what the lindens at least on the forum threads are thinking, the economy will take a large hit, but eventually recover as new PG-friendly cash starts flowing in and stories of “M Linden Cleans Up Second Life!” comparing him to Guilliani attract signups.
I’m still have a hard time determining if all of this is a good or a bad thing, btw. So far, I’m just taking it for what I’m at least absolutely sure it is: another nail in the pioneer spirit coffin. It’s going to make me sad to watch another group of residents learn that despite their bold words, LL really doesn’t give a crap about their plot/store/club/community/home after all.
*rereads his comment* Haha, Freudian slip much? The curse of being a phonetic speller…
Here’s what i think it boils down to, why LL chose to do it, chose to reveal the new plan in this way…
“In fact, the Lab has a long history of having what seem like good reasons for doing things, in their own minds at least, and then being slightly baffled when stuff doesn’t quite turn out as planned.”
… that’s pretty much it… to me it seems like they know what they want to achieve, but they don’t know how to go about getting it done, nor do they really seem to care if their ideas are half-baked, or condusive for the community.
They just do what they do cause they do what they do.
( an example of the LL monday morning meeting:
M Linden: and, dont forget, we have Brenda’s birthday in the break room later… oh and Cyn, I think we should get that age thing rolling again. Cyn, just come up with a plan this week so we can post it by thursday. Now, who wants cake?)
I’m out. It’s heartbreaking, but this is the end of everything that’s good about SL.
The first commenter has it bang on the nail – bring on the first viable competitor.
If we’re *really* lucky that’s an open-source hosting package that allows each of us to run our own sim(s) on an individual server with the capability to interlock – just as we would with websites.
That’s the future and maybe this’ll drive us there that much quicker…
The “Cleaning Up Of Second Life” should in no way be accredited to M Linden, for the plans for governance of this kind were in place well before M Linden arrived at Linden Lab. That is an indisputable fact.
Nothing in this policy will inhibit residents from participating in activities they want to participate in as long as they verify and consent to participate. This is no different than showing identification before buying beer, entering a bar or buying an adult magazine. That is a practice which we find acceptable in the physical world and by which society has managed to chug along.
Throwing out corporate interests as a trump card for the reasoning behind the move is not wholly acceptable. Believe it or not, there are many adult residents that would prefer not to be confronted with adult material and it keeps some casual residents away just as much as it might keep businesses away.
In the physical world, we seem to think that having an adult club across the street from a church isn’t acceptable and so we disallow that with very little turmoil. It just makes sense that we work together to avoid upsetting people who may have different beliefs and preferences so that we can enjoy the freedom to pursue our own in peace and harmony.
There will be some interesting questions regarding creators of skins and if those skins might be made available for purchase to non-verified residents. I think the answer is probably going to be yes, skin sales may continue as long as the ads do not show full frontal nudity. Aquiring and wearing a demo of the skin will probably be tolerated as well. I think common sense just has to prevail here. No one is shopping for a skin to commit a vulgar or indecent act and they should not be accused of such. There will be other questions similar in scope but I think the fact that the film industry manages to designate and rate content to a degree that is found acceptable gives us a reasonable expectation that we can do that in Second Life as well.
Come on.
They take millions of dollars based on land-server flipping, porn and gambling. They then eliminate each “market” that made them short term profits, and then they’ll flip the tech carcas over to another company within 2 years.
So much for “changing anything”. From the first “OWN VIRTUAL LAND” banner to the last “BUY A UNLINCENSED FERRARI at SLX” banner, LL has been built on theft of others property and others ignorance of the true meaning of the TAO of Linden.
They only react to the legal issues after they have robbed the bank. Web2.0 ethics, 101.
chris
“I think the answer is probably going to be yes, skin sales may continue as long as the ads do not show full frontal nudity.”
You see this is what worries me, the mindset behind this element of SL. This indicates to me that there may be draconian measures taken with our culture even outside the pornography establishments.
I consider myself on the conservative side, but never once did I consider the nude models in Skin stores lewd. It never entered my mind to look upon them that way. None of the stores I ever visited depicted the models posing in skin as pornographic. They were always well done nude studies.
I refuse to see how this is lewd behavior or that it should be banned. The human body is not shameful. If I had a child, the skin stores wouldn’t bother me. Second Life has a reputation for being an adult playground in general. Which would mean I would allow no child of mine near it, no matter how watered down.
I can’t help but suspect that LL is hoping that most of the free wheeling residents will just run off to openlifegrid or worlds like it. They think they can carry on without most of us. Maybe they are right.
The worry in all this is that LL’s record suggests they could not write a clear rule to save their lives. What, for instance, is ‘intense language’? Shakespeare? Whitman?
What, for that matter, is PG, a category poorly understood in the US and unknown elsewhere. Are we going to get more nude statues with modesty boxes concealing their unmentionables?
Perhaps a prim figleaf could be included in everyone’s library. It could be used to cover the absurdities, gaps and contradictions in LL regulations.
While we’re analyzing language such as, “…in some very elemental ways, to more closely mirror the real world.”
I’m wondering if the use of a term closely tied to a particular religion in this statement:
“…they can toggle all that smutty adult-type stuff on and off based on how puritanical they feel.”
is meant to move this discussion in a particular direction?
Storm in a teacup. This will better allow for shared interests to erm *flourish*. The grid is too diverse, spread out, and you can hardly find a thing.
One new continent it will be (in my mind at least) like the red light district of SL.
I’ll eat my hat if the land in that space isn’t a premium + is a commercial success for Linden Lab. We also screamed we wanted mainland cleared up *not on my doorstep/parcel please* and now this comes along we scream *wait that sex club was actually ok next door*.
Strategically this makes perfect sense in terms on content / community.
Plus for the micro worriers e.g. can I show nipples on my skin advert in store. Common sense always prevails. If your model is grabbing her nipples and in a lewd post – I suggest you have a problem. If she is simply standing there and a non sexual pose – I suggest you likely do not at this stage.
People will test the boundaries and Linden’s normal process is to put a [badly] worded scope definition out, realize on the feedback, refine it, and repeat as necessary. What I have found good about this post is their obvious sensitivity around the implementation and the fact they are making it clear they are seeking feedback. They have been listening, that is clear.
I need to retract the ‘mirror the world’ comment. Thanks Catherine for pointing out that the final release used different language. The fact that it was in the original release still gives me pause, but I’ll take it that it was an unintended phrasing rather than a shift in philosophy.
We held a fascinating discussion yesterday at Metanomics – transcript is here. I think the gist of it was that this has the POTENTIAL to be a “culture changer” but it felt like the general trend was towards this being a “devil in the details” decision.
If the first hour experience can induce less anxiety and offense in people, while still giving the option to beam off to X-Rated land, who’s going to complain (or at least, that’s how the discussion felt, but maybe I was intruding my own biases).
The question is how to get to there from here, how the ‘transfer’ and ‘flagging’ will happen, and how it will all be enforced.
In fairness to the Lab, I think they’ve opened the door to a fairly robust discussion of what we mean when we say ‘explicit’. Clearly, as the interviews and comments on the Lab’s forum make clear, the “intent” here is to move explicit material to the new continent, and to fairly loosely flag the rest of it while always retaining the “back-up” of being able to crack down a little on egregious offenders.
Whether they can pull this off remains to be seen – but as this has played itself out over night, I’m starting to sense that the “move”, if handled with a fairly light um hand, might have some upsides. (and, again, this is my own bias, but I think the upsides for new users are fairly significant, whether they’re coming looking for the X-Rated stuff or they’re coming and hoping to avoid it).
@Luke – my puritanical comment was meant fairly specifically to flag my own bias. I’m Canadian after all – we can be very hmm ‘english’ but we’re also fairly generous in our allowances of the desires and behaviours of others.
I’m hoping the Lab acts more Canadian than puritanical.
Many have tried and many have failed. Nut at last, LL will succeed where others have failed. A Megamall for every Highway and Byway of the Human Sexual Condition. Bravo!
…expect another crop of dissatisfied customers to head to OpenSim and await full interop…
Its interesting to note that each time Linden Labs pushes its fingers into the Second Life grid, the other grids gain momentum. End song to this all will be a myriad of inter-opped grids with each a specific kind of populace, and Second Life’s grid being the neutral town square.
Lets wait and see how good http://www.redlightcenter.com/ does out of this announcement.
This is not about sex and morality. This is about money and web 2.0 ethics and will most likely be executed as just another way to increase LL’s server rental profits this next quarter. There will be no financial consideration for their customers time and money already spent. A few will , as in the past be privy to insider info and flip new parcels and sims given LL “partner of the moment” blessing, but most will lose more time and money and in the end, LL will simply delete all efforts not in their own best financial interests of any given moment.
This is of course, what we all signed up for after clicking “I agree with the TOS” and placed “our content” and “our work product” into a system which dosent place much interest in it or it’s value financially to others.
I’m just wondering if I can still sing the “God will fuck you up” song at shows. Will they shut down Luxor Stage?
I can’t help but think there is a lot of excessive hand-wringing, lack of tolerance for a little change, and lack of imagination of how this can be good.
Johna makes the point that other grids will also prosper… but it may not be so much that they are fleeing, it may simply be that virtual worlds are maturing, growing, and diversifying. It is good that others are trying other options. These don’t have to be harbingers of doom or threat, they are simply the natural way that new things can be innovated and tested.
As to the fear that once RL kids are added, it will threaten the freedom of mature areas, remember this is a world where rules can be defined and enforced with a lot of granularity, objects, areas, and avatars can have a lot of different limitations placed so that kids can’t go into adult areas, adult themed objects can only belong to appropriate accounts, and unlike the real world, and adult can have a “restraining order” that prevents them from going near the kid’s playground, if need be.
Change does not have always be bad, but change does cause disruption. Like the Linden said, they are first opening this up to debate, so think through your concerns or suggestions and get them in the mix.
I remember a hippie once told me that “FEAR” was “Forever Evading Another Reality”. Don’t give into fear and intolerance of change when you can embrace it and help shape it.
Once the “shock and awe” of announcing the proposed cleaning up of Dodge City has subsided, perhaps the knee-jerk condemnation can give way to some rational discussion about what is clearly an issue.
The veritable “blogsplosion” of comments on this issue indicate that without a doubt, raw nerves have been touched but much calmer one will be needed to make some decisions. Given that Second Life as a PRODUCT serves the needs of different customers in different ways, there’s no doubt that some folks are going to be dissatisfied with any changes.
As to my contribution, I would argue that the discussion should NOT be on how to define “adult content” and what is and isn’t allowed but on how to control ACCESS to particular locations.
And it is, of course, predominantly about sex – a brief skip through the blogosphere will support that – and by default, that means the current “Adult areas.” The underlying concern seems to be two-fold: kids who can wander into a “three-men-and-a-goat scenario” and end up emotional scarred for life, or of adults who wander into a “three-goats-and-a-man scenario” and find it offensive (even if the goats are consenting goats).
Rather than try to prescribe whether goatly action should be allowed, the challenge is to prevent access to the entertainment. Banning goat sex will serve no purpose because (a) there’s no way to police it and (b) there’s no way to police it. Yes, I repeated the phrase but I thought it was important enough to deserve a second hearing.
Oh, and related to this is the other elephant in the room (or goat, if you want to continue the metaphor) – how do you “punish” criminals in Second Life? Irrespective of whatever system ends up being implemented by LL, or whatever definitions of “adult content” get foisted out, the REAL problem is how to enforce them. Simply clicking on “Abuse Report” when you see some hot goat-man action only flags an event; it doesn’t ban the goatish avatars, who can simply sign up again as Goatboy2, Goatboy3, and so on until he runs out of numbers.
So, my take on this is that all this strum und drang about kinky sex masks the underlying – an unaddressed – issues of (a) how do you police SL activities, (b) how do punish infractions of the TOS/Law, and (c) how do you prevent repeat offenders (alts).
…and now we are back to our old friend, compulsory registration using a credit card – or at least that general issue of linking RL and SL identity. And that’s an issue that I suspect will make this current spat seem like the good old days.
[...] issues cause a lot of controversy. Dusan Writer writes: (…) being digital, being virtual isn’t just a technology, it’s not just about [...]
“And it is, of course, predominantly about sex ”
Its the “AFTER THE FACT AND MONEY/TIMES SPENT” issue that is the core of the matter.
This is about business, ownership of time and money, law, and fair value of any agreement or relationship.
This is about “beta culture”,the “product warrentee” ,the “personal freedom of ownership” and the “service” corporation.
Sex , like gambling before was always going to be an issue in this “lab experiment” as designed by the Linden’s for the Lindens:).
More rats now keep seeing the true maze. Thats the true problem the lab now has.
The rats? well they always get tossed after the labs are done with them.:)
I found the whole thing kind of funny. Sad too and somewhat inevitable. But you got to laugh.
So, for what it’s worth, my take on it, having worked in online community for the last 12 years or so, and having come to academic cultural anthropology from the pragmatic perspective of doing my job better…this cat’s left the station long ago.
Briefly, cultural manipulation occurs in every online world, and, indeed, is part of what the consumer is buying. Is there sufficient impetus for building casual ties? Is there reason enough to bond into larger groups? If not, we need to tweak it, or the churn rate goes up, and our world fails: people stay (to a large extent) because of other people, and tweaking the social dynamics is just one of the tools a game designer, or community manager, uses as part of their work. I’d certainly agree that most don’t see it that way (yet)… but by definition the community manager’s job is to “manage” a more or less small virtual culture, castigating miscreants and celebrating “approved” community leaders.
I differ from Dr. Castronova in some respects, and I need to read his book, but my take is that we’re already having a tremendous impact on people’s unconscious awareness of the plasticity of culture. If I can find a plethora of differing yet consistently meaningful (to me, in whatever terms, and there’s a whole other discussion there) social identities with a few mouse-clicks – and Second Life in itself is a darned credible example of this – clearly my cultural identity soon becomes… “which culture?” Ie., the myth of the monolithic culture is doomed (unless you’re talking in the sense of a post-techno convergence culture, ala Henry Jenkins, which I think is much more reasonable, but also much more aware of itself as an artifact), and the technology is returning to us the sense of a participatory culture (as in the sense of “participant observer”, and yes, irony intended).
We’re always involved in shaping our culture, to some extent or other – supporting the trends or cultural leaders that suit us, or becoming them – synthetic worlds give us the chance to seek out specific cultural aspects as part of the consumer choice, again returning the control of culture to the individual…
Most every design choice in a virtual world or MMO (and to a lesser extent, I’d argue the same applies to any online community) impacts the culture of the community that will (presumably) come to be participants in that world. Culture may be in some sense sacrosanct when we’re talking the evils of imperialism, but online it’s already basically a consumer commodity. Which I find really exciting… and yes, should fuel all sorts of fun learnings about how culture operates…
Btw, the “more real” language was from an earlier blog post that I shared with Dusan. We removed it because people misunderstood it. As Cyn comments in the forums “Basically, we are trying for the majority of Second Life to just be… life. Any form, format, or point of view you like, in what we now call the mature area – sort of like the town square. The very sexually explicit and extremely violent, we want to have in a location you choose to go to, just as you would in the “real world”.”
IT ALREADY IS. IT’S CALLED TELEPORT.
The real world does not have these huge distinctions for adult content. In my city centre I will find toy stores near stores that sell sex toys. The dirty bookstore usually stands out like a sore thumb because it’s the store that has the windows blocked, but they’re not shunted to a completely different zone.
If you go to Amsterdam you don’t need to be an adult to walk through the red light district, there’s no barrier with an id check. A responsible parent of course is unlikely to bring their kid traipsing through there of course.
There are positives to an adult continent, the same as there are positives to a non adult continent and this is where I think Linden Lab should lead this. Encourage, but don’t force, people to setup shop in a more suitable location for their offerings or needs.
[...] what does NOT surprise me is.. well. Read the first comment posted to Dusan’s considered blog post about the whole [...]
hello
You know what I find TERRIBLY annoying about this discussion? The notion that Linden Lab, those hippies, those technocommies, those Extropians, being somehow driven to “prudishness” because of their status as Americans, and presumbably Puritan motives.
The fact is, the non-Americans are the biggest drivers of this. It was the European prosecution of child pornography simulation in SL that drove the policy against “ageplay” for example, which would have been tolerated under the First Amendment.
Can you please name one virtual world out there that has this number of people and has adult content? Red Light District died. So, could you cite any? In Canada or the UK? Where we are hearing the biggest screaming and finger-pointing about these prudish Americans?
Seriously, I’d love the Europeans to try making an MMOG or VW that has gambling and adult content and doesn’t charge VAT lol. These three things that they thing evil imperialist industrial religious complex Americans are trying to wipe off the Internet. Then we’d see if in fact the populations of those countries really supported such online activity or not.
The Red Light Center seems online and doing fine.
American Corporate Financed Pornography is safe too. Way to much money involved by large cable tv, hotel, and media corporations who sell “sugar pop ” by day, and “pay per view” by night:)
A couple quick clarifications in regard to cdz’s statement above:
“celia a ‘well respected anthropologist?’ who says? You all are so FULL of it:0) At least her punditry on Interactive Design has over 20 years experience in the field to back up her views.”
Two issues here. At the Metanomics discussion that’s being debated here, Bloomfield incorrectly referred to Celia as a “cultural anthropologist.” She is not and has never identified as such – that was Rob’s error. She does, however, conduct ethnographic research.
Second issue: your phrase “You all are so FULL of it” makes it sound to me like you are also implying she is not a well-respected ethnographer. So if that’s what you intended by saying “who says,” then I SAY she’s a well-respected ethnographer. Since I’ve read her book manuscript and many other writings, I should know. And since I have a PhD in anthropology from Stanford and am an Associate Professor of anthropology at UC Irvine and am Editor-in-Chief of American Anthropologist, the flagship journal of the American Anthropological Association, I sorta get to say what counts as good ethnography. Her work counts as good ethnography. So there.
At the risk of sounding repetitive: those of us interested in building a strong and diverse research community should stand up to all forms of dismissal or methodological partisanship. I know from my work as an editor that not all research is of the same quality, but I also know that there’s a lot of diverse work out there that deserves respect and deserves a hearing. No research will be everyone’s cup of tea, but we can learn from a wide range of research methods.
A quick tag on Ron Meiners’s comment-it’s absolutely true that cultures are always in a state of change and that change is shaped by “internal” and “external” forces, and questions of ethical research, design, and governance of virtual worlds should take this into account. A good and important point.
And… of course there’s the SL Shakespeare Company
I am not so sure on the UK side in that scope of European Prok.
Registrations of UK users rose substantially after press on the sex scandals etc.
I do not believe this is driven by *cleaning up content*. This is driven by commercial land etc. Think of those premiums for the Linden built mainland areas. I suspect they have already been working on this and it will be found to be commercially lucrative for the Lab.
Their own red light district so to speak will sell for a premium no doubt.
absolutley jonathan,
I expect 1500.00 setup fees and 395.00 monthly tiers – to be 6 months later extended to all “estates” to run CLASS S(for sex) Servers.
This is just another attempt to get while the getting still seems good.
The only plan is to keep all customers unsure of anything, keep them “blogging” at themsleves to feel “good and important” and to keep doing what will ever keep cash flowing into the bank account.
Its really not any “new paradigm”..;)
Those who can still profit from the system will stay, those who can no longer afford to, will leave, still believing in “TAOs” or not:)
arte you have any fotos for this story?
[...] http://dusanwriter.com/index.php/2009/02/26/live-theater-in-second-life [...]
“the crime of apartheid”
When I first arrived in SL I was shocked and dismayed by the discovery of BDSM, the obvious Sexual nature of a lot of the content and most defiantly by the concept of slavery, I am African, to me it was a nightmare. But I explored, I met people, I listened. I found a diversity of cultures, of beliefs of sexual tolerance. A world where we were separated only by Time, not by Borders, Colour, Creed or Sexual Preference. I stayed and I loved it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeska Linden
To be clear, the blog states there are three main features involved in this change:
* Provide a way to geographically separate Adult content to a new part of the “mainland” designed
* Filter search results, so that those who do not wish to see “Adult” results will not
* Require that those who access or see “Adult” content (whether on land or in search) have had their accounts verified – such as by a payment or age verification method.
In the real world I grew up in a country with forced removals where different groups were allocated separate land, pass laws to verify your status, of censorship in media and in speech. In short the 3 points Jeska highlights above. We had a name for it:
‘Apartheid — meaning separateness in Dutch (which is cognate to the English apart and -hood) — was a system of legal segregation enforced by the government in South Africa between 1948 and 1994. The vestiges of apartheid still shape South African politics and society.’
I now have to live with the aftermath of Apartheid and it is not nice, our society is so fragmented, groups are still suspicious of each other, cultures keep to themselves. Everything is the opposite of what drew me so deeply into SL.
If LL are hell bent on enforcing “the crime of apartheid” onto the virtual world of SL, then they are bound to repeat history and as a social experiment Second Life has failed.
These proposals will not affect me in any way, they may effect some of my friends, but they will effect a lot of people initially and all of us in the end.
I lived with and fought against Apartheid all my life, do I now have to repeat that in my Virtual world?
Dusan’s analysis of the immediate effects to the community is very sound. Avatrian does not really dabble in any adult or mature oriented content. So we are unaffected by all this. However, the thought of a seperate T&A continent, virtual apartheid and sim relocations…it does not illicit good feelings. Disruptions are never welcomed and wide sweeping cultural changes imposed from the top are always alienating. I think when LL does their cost/benefit analysis before doing these things, it is easier for them to see (and therefore value) the corporate few in relation to the residential many.
Dusan/Craig, thanks for the sum up. This year, my company did not participate as well. The fragmentation and frequency of these industry conventions render them ineffective for the purposes of marketing, learning or networking. We need to have a true tradeshow for participants to have substance to take away with them. And also, be able to find answers they are looking for. From experience, I come away more confused after attending a Virtual World Expo. Ironically enough, I didn’t get the sense of being “engaged” at all. There is never a discerning sign to where the industry as a whole is going.
This will really create a two-class system in SL : The “Verified” and the unwashed “Unverified” who are banned from all lands flagged “mature”. What an impact this will have for people with multiple alts!
I can see how people who are Unverified will be viewed with suspicion by the Verfied.
[...] On which point I have some issues, but we’ll leave that to the accountants and anthropologists to sort out. [...]
The shift you speak of in your first paragraph reflect that people operating in the virtual world do so much the same way they operate in the physical world. As for the quote from Mark Fellows, my personal reaction is “Duh!”. Sherry Turkle’s work starting with “The Second Self” in 1984 and “Life on the Screen” in 1995 show that even text-based worlds could “inform social science and and its applications in the real world”
Sidebar: Linden are not surveilling you (without good reason) because they’re not allowed to legally and I don’t just mean because of any perceived right to privacy. LL have claimed Service Provider status for themselves which grants a ’safe harbour’ clause that they cannot be prosecuted for any illegal or stolen content carried on their networks on the grounds that they cannot practically know what’s being carried on their networks.
I’ve been told (by lawyers that know much more than me!) that this absolutely pivots on them having ‘no prior knowledge’ of any users activity or user-content. If they ever did have it would nullify their safe harbour and they’re wide open to all sorts of litigation. Guessing they’d like to avoid that?
you should start a seocnd blog, it’s grear!
The problem with global, ubiquitous censorship (and thats what LL is trying to implement, effectively) are manyfold. Two of the most important ones (besides many technical problems) are:
#1: Laws and law enforcement without a supporting jurisdictional system (a court of appeals for example) are basically what defines a dictatorship.
#2: There is no global standard (and probably can’t be), what is “decency”. The internetz (and SL) is global, though. LL is basically trying to enforce local standards (”frontal nudity” ROTFL) to its global target group.
Cultural standards vary wildly over the globe. In some countries exposing a woman’s nipple is considered indecent (or worse). In other cultures showing her face outside the home is indecent. In Germany the public display of a swastika is illegal – as is consummation of child porn (not only production). Personally I find pictures of people carrying giant guns much more obscene the pictures of a couple making love. Culture (and law) is local, sometimes even personal. The internetz isn’t.
There are may people, who have no problems with #2. Prok’s comment is a good example. The reasoning behind it is basically: LL is an American company and an American company has a right to enforce American standards (this is NOT an purely American attitude btw. it tends to be more prevalent in more powerful nations, though
The problem with this attitude is that (1) it doesn’t hold water legally. Residents coming from other nations have to follow their local laws (even in SL). That’s why this move only helps Linden Lab in the US on the purely legal side, which now is less than half it’s market. (2) it at least misleading advertisement if not something stronger to present yourself as a basically neutral, global platform but behave like you are a district of one of the worlds nations.
Let’s be honest and reasonable:
If you look at the phrasing of Linden Lab’s original post it becomes fairly clear, that the main impetus for this program is to provide the corporations and other organizations which are the focus of their current sales, PR and marketing activities with a “clean” environment. Corporations in general ARE more puritan than than the citizens themselves in most cultures of the world.
So it seems to make sense to them to “clean up SL”. This is a valid business reason. That’s all.
All the other nice words around the announcement is just … PR
[...] Insights from Engage Expo: Virtual World Goods, Kids, and Montetizing Mom from Dusan Writer’s Metaverse. [...]
No doubt you will “pardon my French”, inasmuch as, being French, you will no doubt pardon my English.
Here’s what I “jump” (?) at:
“us(es) the virtual world to identify things that are going on in the real world rather than using the virtual world simply to look at the virtual world.”
Indeed. I have met people in Second Life telling me they had foreseen a slump in the financial system because of a similar earlier slump in their virtual activities. For all I know, a wide range of economics researchers have recently said that as well, that is true.
So why do I get this strange feeling as I’m thinking of Claude Lévi-Strauss?
I do believe there are set patterns you can recognize in both virtual and real worlds. Therefore, no doubt, you might analyze the real world as things happen in the virtual one.
Nonetheless, it seems to me this is missing the point. That is why I shall use the word “candid” to describe the findings of such eminent people, notwithstanding the respect I might bear to such people.
There are links, indeed, between the two worlds. How could it not be so? Yet, as far as I know, I see the virtual platforms as an “extension” from real life. Not a danger per se, but a new stage in society’s evolution, such as, let’s say … impressionistic painting for the 20th century.
Must we analyze the beginnings of 20th century real life through the vision of impressionist painters?
We shall.
Must we also analyze the events leading to “impressionisme”.
Of course.
The real question, I think, is thus not to watch the virtual world as a tool to analyze “things that are going on” in the real world, but as a “real” phenomenon, which may show things that will possibly happen, or even how society, culture and so on will develop.
Nice interview indeed …
yet I still am very far from understanding “techne” I think, and I also get the feeling Mr Boellstorff is still struggling with the concept, which, after all, seems sound enough.
I just want to link this to Joan Kramer’s post. In thought, she says there is no distinction, and uses the term “extension”, which I used in another post not being sure of its meaning in English (warms the cockles of my French heart!); in writing, she says “SL life”, as work life or other categories we might apply to different parts of our life.
I do agree, because it is my own personal theory “in the making”, but the way she puts it unsettles my very idea now …
If anyone has suggestions, or Joan herself, please enlighten me!
extention? without knowing the specific context youre refering to i would assume its “extention” as in basic mcluen “media/ tools as extentions of man/humans”.
beyond all the metahype all virtual worlds are another media/tool for humans to inhabit and exist with. They will soon allow for environments as potentially satisfying for the human condition as nature/god has offered us.
We bring the luggage:)
They are as exponetially powerfull in my opion to be used to control and manage “others” as to the earlier voice/image broadcast media was to the atom’s splitting was to the powder’s burning.
Post atomic? sounds like a blog buzz meme, makes little sense beyond what ive just said.photons shmotons…
The natural world is atomic in nature, we and “so far” all our extentions are as well. Trapped.:)with only faith for some’s key to doors that may not exist.
No matter how meta the extropian server that may hold Ray Kurswells brain,lol one good solar flare will most likely send him to pallookaville.
Both realife and virtual worlds can easily be placed into our shared reality beyond faith. Both states are open to the affects of the extentions of mans free will. Neither can negate reality though, other than in discussions of faith.
technology is not science, that has been the most overlooked issue in almost all things networked as meta for way to long.
Time to no longer be WIRED.
Gracias!
Yeah,
for 20 years before SL bloggers made “hype” about grass water and islands being the only way to be a virtual world, many did work that was called “3d interface/immersive design” and translated information into many many metaphors and shapes.
“reflexive architecture” is the hammer seeing the nail:), and will assist some architects to go beyond 2d cad presentations as tools, and some to see “immersive media” as a medium that many will spend more time “mediated in” than in real lifes mediations.
Camera angles are just the medias “human scale” step heights. ignore them and your viewsers cant navigate, just as make stairs to tall and no one can reach the bathrooms on the second floor:)
This is an old post, by now the metaverse myth of sl has been found out, but the usage of SL by prok to sell bungalows and white picket fences to those who “require” it, and for keystone to sell wikitechture and “animated-living architecture” to those who need that, has been a needed step to alert a wider audience, part proks, part keystones, to the reality of virtuality that is coming soon. With or without SL as a meme or blogging as the faulty dominant way people communicate by choice.–heck its twitter now anyway as i add my 2 cents in 2009..right?
Great quality stuff.
Superb..A fully platform independent, web based client would be the knee-up opensimulator needs. Instantly one could integrate their standalone 3D space with the 2D, reducing any need for a client install. Superb…Looking forward to some sensible firefox hippoViewer plugins
We still need a way to allow a ‘Guest’ style login to opensim. Or a way to have a hypergrid user that requires no ’start world’. Its nice to browse a thing without signing up. Thanks for this news Dusan 
Javascript isn’t… well, it isn’t very fast. It might be useful for some very simple scenes – but that wouldn’t include anything like SL.
Tateru, some of the newer javascript engines are sufficiently fast to enable 3D technologies in the browser. Chrome, Safari, and Mozilla browser makers are all working on javascript tracing and JIT’ing engines whose performance characteristics may very well surprise you, and for a concrete example of how fast javascript can be for 3D viewers today, you might want to take a look at Unity3D.
I am actually quite excited by this news!
Networking limitations in the browser requires attention too: there is no way to set up a listener, and port range is restricted.
I’m sure this will eventually evolve too.
Cool. great for thin client approach. But it also makes me wonder if this is the path we want to be traveling.
There is a reason we do not use Lynx as a browser anymore; we all wanted to see pictures, so we went level up and started using web browsers that supported images and other fancy -2D- content. We even added the concept of ‘ embed’, so we can have animated and interactive content like Flash.
Now we come to the next wave of content, and its 3D-shaped. Is it not just time to realise that we require a different type of browser for 3D content?
Vivaty, small worlds and various ‘ browser based’ 3D worlds are at current just plug-ins (propriatary or flash based) that run in a sandbox in the browser.
So far what this proposal aims to do is leverage Open GL into the browser to be addressed by javascript, and only the Mozilla browser as I read it. If we are ging to create 3D on the web, I would be happier to see an open system that is crossbrowser and doesnt get its fingers into my operating system by staying inside the sandbox we call webbrowser.
For those of you who are impatient for browser-based experiences in worlds like SL, grab yourself a copy of the Placebo Browser!
A rather misleading article title!
Mozilla has certainly not proposed anything specific to virtual worlds, only browser support for hardware accelerated 3D graphics in general. Someone else might try to use the technology to make a 3D virtual worlds client in the browser, but Mozilla hasn’t proposed that at all.
Anyway, 3D Canvas might be interesting for some lightweight, no-frills clients, but I don’t expect web-based clients to replace dedicated client software as the primary means of connecting to 3D virtual worlds.
They could be a nice secondary means, a way to connect when you’re away from your main computer, or as a gateway client to draw new users into the world. But dedicated clients will always be able to offer richer and smoother experiences, so returning users will still find it worthwhile to download and use a separate viewer application.
@Jacek Hmmm….maybe I’ll change the title – however, they didn’t announce this at the “hardware accelerated 3D graphics” conference, they announced it at the Game Developers Conference.
And I’m going to extend the conclusion that if they can get the browser talking to 3D, then some enterprising person who’s good with thinking about clients and such will come along and “deepen” the browser-based client.
Google commented, in fact, that the move would lead to ‘video games in a browser’ (woot! Lively returns!):
“Google was also excited by the prospect of a 3D web standard, which if successful could bring better videogames through the ‘net and pave the way for 3D chatrooms and the like.
“With more and more content moving to the web and JavaScript getting faster every day, the time is right to create an open, general purpose API for accelerated 3D graphics on the web,” said Matt Papakipos, Engineering Director at Google.
“Google looks forward to offering its expertise in graphics and web development to this discussion.”"
Having said that, I agree – clients will remain, for the foreseeable future, the richer and smoother experience. In particular Imprudence.
I think before the cigars get sent around one has to hear from Microsoft and the Directx Posse.
Kronos brings Collada, and Collada will bring Autodesk( to a point) and the Games makers EXCEPT for MS.
opengl vs directx has been a good reason web3d didnt get more usage over this last decade ago. and why kronos now is the announcer of this iniative and not the web3d.org;)
FIrefox with native 3d, great. Will it be a hype bubble for rt3D just as SL has been once “new” marketing folk can finally see web3d production values on their powerbooks and mac desktops.. maybe:0
but making lots of 3d marketing experiments has been done 3 times in a decade( the latest’s in SL ), having them reach a ROI isnt.
Sounds great, but why dont we all wait a bit before declaring the next metaverse. The last one has serious issues that are coming to a head very soon.
unity3d looks good, but unless its bundled with browser installs, it will NEED desirebable content en masses to attract its installation. And many with 3d plugins( even all platforms) have failed to figure out how to make happen before.
Hint, TVs withouts programming were just wood and glass furniture.
boo,
c3
For an example of what Chrome and Firefox can already do in 3D using nothing but canvas and javascript, check this out: http://gyu.que.jp/jscloth/touch.html
Now imagine what it will be like when people don’t have to create what is essentially a browser-based software renderer, and can use a real API like a functional subset of OpenGL…
Instead of neat little tech demos, we’ll finally have the ability to host virtual worlds.
/me is obviously still excited about the possibilities I’ve been reading about all day, not just here but at Raph’s blog, and all over the indie gamedev sphere
Why OnLive will not be the massive tectonic shift so many are currently predicting…
Among the things announced this week in GDC were two developments in entirely different directions on a particular axis of games technology: first, the OnLive network of thin clients showing network-streamed video games rendered on a server cluster…
I an new to SL and just starting to find my way around the world. I looked at SL teen and thought that it was a bad setup but good idea.
I like the idea of adult content control but think they should relaunch SL teen as a restricted version of SL and allow those that want more control of x rate content to migrate to a PG rate version.
Maybe its time LL update how user interact in SL and start ranking content provides as a a way to improve the world, SL 2.0 maybe.
The main problem with this scheme is LL is trying to set up governance without government. The forum is chock full of Does the Adult classification apply to Case X? The answer is almost always no, but that is not consistent with what the Adult definition actually says.
So we are going o have a regulation where case-by-case declarations by the enforcers override what the regulation actually says. IT’s a coder’s dream to have law-as-code that somehow executes itself without courts, judges or juries. It’s a user’s nightmare to have law=as=code where the enforcers spend all their time insisting that the text of the regulation does not mean what it says.
It would be seriously hard to come up with a more arbitrary scheme of regulation or one that was more open to regulatory griefing.
Time to wake up the papervision section of your blog.
http://jeanricardbroek-architect.blogspot.com/2009/03/games-running-in-flash-just-like-video.html
By year end the content there will merge with The VW content here.
The race is on now between: Native Browser/Java, Flash(Server rendered and piped or with plugins) and SL like open source 3D Viewers that become full 2D browsers as well.
all at the time we see OpenCL for plug and play physics engines, reduced form factors like Nvidia’s Ion, App stores for components and content, Full HDTV/Browser integration, and iphones as TV remotes and input devices.
This may be a Recession, but everyone sees $$$$$$$$$$$ in the mashup of 3D,Open APIs, SaaS & micro-transactions.
Watch. It is time for Microsoft and Adobe to come out of the closet. Lets just hope we keep the advertisers and Google floundering for a little longer.
This has been one busy month: http://jeanricardbroek-architect.blogspot.com/2009_03_01_archive.html
I see a very long load bar coming in the future into my browser…it will load so long I will be driven into SL.
This is good news for Raph though.
I don’t buy what Eris is saying whatsoever.
That’s a thin veil of legitimacy covering a multitude of vast oceans of data, with little or no constraints on the Lindens’ use or potential use of it.
I remember I used to collar Philip Linden and say, Good Lord, you have more knowledge about all the businesses in a world/country than any government in history. How can we have free enterprise…free anything!…in such a setting?
Many businesses simply refused to get started from real life into SL precisey because they couldn’t protect their data stream.
The Lindens are sitting on a gold mine of externalized dreams…how/when/if they will use it is nothing that there is any law about, really, even privacy law.
The Lindens’ ability to obtain immunity from prosecution or limit their liability to litigation isn’t at all the same thing as what they may do on their own with their knowledge of the world scraped from us. The TOS enables them to scrape at will and use at will if you read closely.
I’m going to defend my use of the term “ridiculous” quite plainly: because it is so. Prof. Robert Bloomfield came on to Terra Nova and said he wanted to find virtual worlds to do prototyping and studies with students in his accounting classes at his university. And I was one of the ones who said, oh, don’t go to those closed war games like Ted Castronova plays, come to Second Life where possibilities are open and unlimited. He at first held this at bay, but then *did* come to SL.
Did Beyers Sellers make any prototypes or models or run them? Did he use SL to make any kind of experiment in business or accounting? Did he perform any research? Did he create any learning experiences for students?
No. None of the above. Beyers did no such thing.
Instead, he created….um…a talk show. He invited people to come on a talk show, let them gab, and he filmed them and put it on TV, and after awhile, even put himself on as a jazz lounge act. Er, where’s the scholarship? Where’s the “idea of the university”? Here he’s bagging on Tom for not having some rigorous methodology, but Tom carefully created a group, held meetings with people and discussed directly with them very specific topics and solicited their input, took notes, did other interviews, and went through the discipline of writing a book about this field exploration. His meetings and group went on for at least a year or more, hundreds of subjects and discussions. There was direct interaction, without the distraction of all the “production” of the Metanomics shtick. Tom talked with people and researched and got input in a rigorous manner, even if he didn’t do a “scientific survey” (there are so many silly ’sociological surveys’ in SL that are skewed from the start that it’s hard to believe they get to be called “science” whereas what Tom did would be questioned.)
So it really is silly. I’m all for having talk shows and guests and chat and jazz. It’s a great way to explore topics. But…to then go around banging on people who actually perform more serious research as not having any methodology, when you haven’t done anything even remotely resembling some sort of academic model, is just absurd.
What’s truly awful about the challenging of legitimate experts like Tom with the sillyness of the Web 2.0 cult of the amateur as Andrew Keen calls it is that he’d have to come on here and keep explaining his credentials.
What needs explaining is why this accountant from Cornell came into SL and didn’t do any accounting or business models, but did a talk show on TV.
[...] to test anthropological theory using virtual worlds as a laboratory. The 20-odd comments on Dusan Writer’s post after the show suggest that there is a lot more to talk about. And talk about it we will — Tom [...]
lol.
“So these two ameobas walk into a petri dish….”
- walk?
[...] Writer published some critical remarks on his blog, Dusan Writer’s Metaverse. I’ll mention a few points here, adding my first reactions on his [...]
Prokofy,
Metanomics is not my research program. But as the proponents of qualitative research have been emphasizing, it is unwise to try to conduct experiments in virtual worlds without understanding them. Metanomics has been very helpful in that respect.
Here is a paper that conveys where my research program is heading. Could I have written this without running Metanomics? Maybe. But then I wouldn’t have learned what I needed for some of my other projects that are not yet ready for the public eye.
I’ve only just now had time to read this thread, but I highly recommend anyone with a sustaining interest in this issue have a listen at our follow-up discussion which happened today. It should be archived at the Metanomics Web site in the next couple of days.
We had a fascinating conversation today, in which some very salient points were addressed, with the aid of our guest, Thomas Malaby, and our guest moderator, Roland Legrand. Although the dialog covered a lot of ground, it sadly concluded on a somewhat contentious note that brought us full circle back to where we started. I’ll look forward to hear the further engagement…
And by the way, Tom is absolutely correct that I have never referred to myself as an anthropologist and unfortunately, I was erroneously referred to that way again today. I am a games researcher who uses anthropological methods in my work.
For anyone interested, I have a blog post about yesterday’s session here .
[...] wrote a lengthy post, which elicited lengthy replies, and then we held a special Metanomics community forum, and the [...]
[...] Britain, Journalism as Impressionism The UK Telegraph has picked up on the Eric Krangel “drying paint meme” and has declared Second Life “virtually over” in an article that is so weak and [...]
Well, all nice and shiny, but while I agree that SL is far from the death scenario the Telegraph and others come up with once every few weeks, I still have a big problem with the direction I read out of these statements.
I always read “first hour experience”, “new users”, “more users” and so on – it would be nice if LL would do something for the *existing users*, too! Yeah, sure, stability nowadays is better than a year before, downtime cut to half of the old status. Sadly, at the same time, trust in the company and their caring for those who pay their wages during the same time was cut to half, too.
I didn’t see M adressing the problem of users who – as soon as they are in the “net” of Second Life – suddenly are not worth that much anymore. The new blog is a step into the right direction – but a tiny one.
Daniel: the problem of focusing on the acquisition of customers versus retaining existing customers is not just a Second Life problem. Technology companies *rarely* seem to think in terms of retention. I license libraries for our development, and one I renewed recently caught me off guard.
Last year, they sent a notice that my annual subscription was up for renewal. So, a month before the subscription expired I renewed. This year, I got a notice my subscription was expiring… 12 months after I renewed. Apparently the system they use is so primitive that it just uses a flat 12 months from the date you repurchased, effectively wiping out a month of subscription for being a good customer that renewed early.
Because of the surprise missing month, I now have the option to repurchase at full price or walk away from the libraries. Guess which option my company will take?
I dunno about the future of SL…and no one else does either as far as I can tell. But where’s something from Kingdon/LL about what the company is committing to doing for its customers–er the ones who pay for sims like Rezzable.
Questions that remain unanswered (and most likely will never be answered):
* who is buying new islands? (why isn’t there an owner directory?)
* how many islands are there really now?
* how big a proportion of the grid is the porno grid?
* What is plan for allowing under 18s in?
* what is the technology roadmap? There are tons of issues and what is LL prioritizing?
* when will there be a standard mesh object?
* will there be web services for SL? What about integration to other communities??
I think that LL has wasted a huge amount of goodwill with the content creators that give life to the SL offering. Providing 16,000 prims for $2,000 to $4,000 per year is very expensive. There are some virtual online alternatives on the horizon and LL should be ready to face a more serious exodus once they are more stable.
[...] metrics and targets for 2009 Posted on April 2, 2009 by Daniel Voyager My Keynotes from Dusan Writer’s blog post on Accenting the Positive: Mark Kingdon Reveals Growth Targets for Second [...]
RaR/Daniel –
Lots of good points. An interesting highlight from the Kingdon presentation in France which I didn’t transcribe was his discussion of the three main “prongs” of development and how those assist both new users and current ones. One of his points Web-side that the Lab has taken half a step of 100. I think this responds to RaR’s comments about Web-side things.
I’m a firm believer that the Lab is indicating that Web-side improvements will help facilitate group, commerce, and connection.
As far as statistics, the first quarter is now over. As I understand it, the Lab is releasing Q1 stats, based on comments made on the Linden blog. I was quite vocal about the need for these statistics to be useful for business planning and to get a better read of where the in-world economy is at. I’ve also been extremely vocal about a road map, and Kingdon has said that it is their intention to release road maps – and that the reality is, they didn’t have any. A road map would go a very long way to help current content creators plan their businesses.
Regarding the <18 comment – I think they’ve been fairly clear that this isn’t something they’re attaching to the adult content issue, but that until the adult content issue is managed they won’t look at it. (Yeah, paradox). I think they’ve also hinted that other things like 3D mesh and HTML on a prim are on the horizon, but like other ‘road map’ items they’re opaque about it.
Finally, I agree about tier pricing. I’m on no authority in this area, I’ve heard nothing, and this is total speculation – but I’m expecting a new tier option or pricing change by June. Again – total out of the wild guess.
Daniel – I’m wondering specifically what things you think the Lab should do for residents that its not doing? I’ll say that my major beefs are the following:
- Lack of a road map
- Lack of a road map
- Tier too expensive against current competition and other options
- Lack of progress on group, friends list and other in-world social and noticing functions
- Search still sucks (big time)
- Lack of a really good channel or senior executive advocating for the interests of land owners and content creators
My wish list includes:
- Early discussions on the policy implications of importable 3D meshes towards developing a community-backed road map
- Clickable HTML on a prim and desktop sharing
- A road map
- A road map
Having said all that, the number one things I would have asked for a year ago would have been stability, stability and stability. And I believe good progress has been made on these three fronts.
I also would have asked for an improved UI for the client (which it’s good to hear is coming) and a better Web site (which is getting there).
Did I miss anything?
Um, can we add editable megaprims?
Ohhh – yessss….editable megas! Let’s admit that they’re not going anywhere and build them in!
Honestly, I think I speak for quite a few of us when I say we don’t want to take away the “programming as entertainment” element. Some of us wouldn’t be nearly as narcissistic in SL without it ;o) . I suspect the largest portion of the consumer population prefer to be consumers, while the smaller creator population actually prefer the learning curve and the challenge it presents.
Agreed.
I’d be lost without prims. Scripts I can’t handle, but prims, textures…..mmmmm…..they’re like looking in the mirror. 
I haven’t seen any need to learn programming in order to build on sl. It is more like creating art than like writing a computer program. But I am definitely one of the group who love sl’s infinite learning curve! What else is life for, if not to learn?
Very, very good points, Dusan. You know, I have this strange feeling that Second Life is something we’re pretty much “used to”. It’s like… well, Amazon, eBay, PayPal, or even Google — with just a fraction of the user base, granted, but there is this uncanny feeling of a “thing to stay”. I mean, mmmh, we don’t get many articles about “the problems of email in the workplace”. Sure, a new feature of email gets attention from a very tiny group of Slashdotters. A new spam trojan might make the headlines here and there. But, overall, email doesn’t feature on major magazines any more. It’s… “a fact of life”.
SL is “almost” at that point (which is bad, in the sense that it doesn’t have “billions of users” yet). Media reporting on it really have to work hard to publish something that is interesting — even if it’s just repeating “everybody is running away from SL” or “SL has been long dead”, which is, frankly, the kind of story that I wonder how editors are still willing to pay for: The point is, there aren’t many interesting stories about SL that appeal to a wider audience — exactly like there aren’t any interesting stories about email. Or, well, eBay or Amazon (unless Amazon launches something new on their cloud computing arena).
Instead, we just get swamped with stories about Facebook and Twitter. *sigh* It will be a hard blow for the media when they finally burn out their venture capital and have to say “oops, we have no business model, sorry about that”. On the other hand, we have Linden Lab with a business model that is rock solid (even if their technology is not… yet), but that kind of news is… boring. LL are too open about some statistics but…. yes, no roadmaps
However, is there a roadmap for Twitter? For Facebook? For MySpace? I gather not. (Amazon, at least, says what they’re doing outside their core business… and so does Google). The lack of a roadmap doesn’t prevent “social media experts” to drool over companies that we really don’t know anything about. That doesn’t stop them from continue to drool
But at the end of the day, when you remove the drool, what will remain…?
You’re right about techies jumping over to “the next best, shiny, new thing”. Wellllll… at least some of them
When those techies evolve to become IT consultants, they become conservative. That’s why 40-year-Unix and 40-year-Internet is still around, although sooooo many “shiny new things” have been popping up in the past decades — and quickly forgotten after a few years of “shining”. The old metaphor of burning like a meteor comes to mind. Just 4 years ago people were drooling about Friendster and intrigued if MySpace would ever catch up!… now it’s the war between Facebook and Twitter… and what will come next? Nobody can predict it… but… I can predict I’ll be still paying close attention to Second Life in 2013, even if I might have long dropped my Twitter and Facebook accounts! (The other day I was surprised I still had a Friendster account… somewhere 
)
It’s interesting that you mention Ugotrade. You’re SO right! I was wondering why I hadn’t read anything from Tish recently — and the answer is simple. She writes now about all sort of things that glitter and shine and catch her attention, but… Ugotrade is not interesting any more. It lacks focus. It lacks vision. When you start looking around for everything shiny and glittery, you lose consistence — a trait you admire so much on M Linden, and which I absolutely agree with you. Even Prokofy has lost his thread, and is now way more happy dissing cloud computing or OpenID than writing about Second Life
How long will it take for him to become irrelevant?
A very good friend of mine came to a very interesting observation, which will not be a surprise to you (and to most of your regular readers). Tag something with Second Life, and the SLogosphere will pick it up and amplify it tremendously — waaaay beyond any other environment. And the reason for that? Second Life’s “offworld” interconnection is incredibly powerful because of its consistence. And at this age and day where everything else is too fragmented, that counts a lot. This “magic” of Second Life’s consistency and relationship interconnection is what makes, say, live musicians that have had a MySpace for ages suddenly “pop into existence” after just a few live concerts in SL. They didn’t suddenly become better musicians — or started doing better PR. It’s just the amplifying phenomenon that SL has. Let me try a different example: run a survey to see who still remembers the Sheep and compare it to Rezzable (*bows to RaR*). I’m pretty sure the results will be interesting to follow.
So, of course, everybody knows I’m a SL fan and thus impossibly biased, but for the social media experts, SL is “unexplored territory”. Why does it have this “amplification”, if we just read nonsense and garbage on the media?
The answer is quite subtle. The world is full of people on Twitter and Facebook, but on SL, it’s a different world of quite different people
And before my head explodes with the gloat, I’ll leave you in peace…
Hugs,
– Gwyn
Hey, I’m a narcissist, and proud of it!
Thanks Gwyn for the response – great points all.
A few minor points: I think Prok is observing Lent, thus the focus is in different areas. I anticipate the return of focus after Easter.
Something interesting about Twitter – I read somewhere recently that they have so much venture money that they are profitable solely from the interest they earn on banking it – they don’t have much to spend it on (other than servers maybe) because they don’t particularly have a business model to support.
And as for Facebook – well, talk about LACK of consistency. They seem to waffle and change their minds every other week. I can’t help thinking that this lack of consistency and the apparent hubris of their management is a far more troubling sign for a technology ‘darling’ than anything else.
Hugs back.
@Riven – I totally agree. Before I came to SL, I knew how to use PowerPoint, Word, and Excel; I could do a little Flash programming; and could run queries in Access and that’s about it.
Because of SL I now know Photoshop inside out, Maya, 3DS, ZBrush, and how to rez prims – mind you, LSL is a mystery, but hey, I’ve been thinking about other things too.
SL never ceases to amaze me – I was commenting on Prok’s blog about Blue Mars…which I don’t think will really compete with SL. I can’t think of another technology platform where there’s something new to learn about the technology ITSELF every day – or some new approach someone has, some mash-up, some augmented reality thing, whatever.
But add to that the fact that the PEOPLE are in themselves some of the most fascinating and intelligent folks I’ve ever met is what continually blows me away – and somehow I don’t think golfing on Blue Mars is going to expose me to the same types of people – narcissists and all.
a few things Second Life needs:
At any point, your oven could explode, burning your build, and killing your avatar. (circa The Sims)
With a special fancy movement of the mouse, avatars of SL should be able to godlike cast spells (circe Black and White)
If you do not enter the correct password at login, you’ll still be able to go inworld, but within 30 seconds there are hurricanes, tornadoes, and monster attacks (circa Sim City)
Second Life users should develop from multidemenional complex emotional people… into 1 of 2 dispositions… “good” or “evil” (circa Fable)
In seriousness: I’ve been enjoying seeing Metaplace develop too. Although it’s not my personal cup of tea, I like how metaplace is merging the line between Online Virtual World and Ego-Game.
Will Wright has an immense experience in user generated contents for games. He introduced UGC in The Sims pack and then further developed them in Spore and other games.
I think that Will Wright is right when he said:
“The sophistication…was pretty high for a lot of people, programming does not sound like entertainment.”
but we have to decline it in the SL mood.
The problem is not for builder/designers etc…
There are thousands of builders in SL and they are doing a tremendous job……
The problem is to give newbies and others not creators of contents the opportunity to interact more easily with the thousands of user generated contents created in SL.
I mean, if you are a newbie in SL, you haven’t
got the faintest idea where to get wonderful goods for customize your avatar, create your home, stand in cool poses and make fantastic things
Linden Lab bought XstreetSL, it could be a first step in the right direction…but I’m waiting for more integration between the two platforms.
They have to integate the virtual marketplace with the client, they have to integrate the registration process in SL, with the login in XstreetSL and make very easy (idiot proof) for newcomers the routine of buy stuffs in xstreetsl and gain skills in SL
Think to IMVU. They claim 30millions of users. They didn’t get a review on the press, but they have a fully functioning business model and with only a few advertising they are gaining millions of users, each month. Their secret is a perfect integration of the virtual items Marketplace, with the Client and of the Client with the social networking tool. I think that SL, should look at the IMVU experience and work on a better integration of the website/client section in order to become more accessible to new members…
Hi Dusan
What to do to help existing users/customers? You named the road map, that would help already. On the other hand: looking at history, how trustworthy would that be? The open space debacle was a disaster in the field of customer trust. Actually, it wasn’t one, it still *is* one, with some Lindens sending half-signals about the next step in July not happening and no official words at all. The whole LL approach of “we made a mistake – and our customers will suffer for it” doesn’t go well with me (and many others) – and it will be very hard to gain trust again. A good start would be some honesty about own mistakes, instead of all the bright and shiny PR action and blatant lying.
Prices in general are too high, options to only pay what you really use are (at least on the estate sector) next to non-existent. Example how it can be done (from k-grid): you pay a basis price for a region with only 750 prims – and can buy additional prims in packs of 500. Why pay for 15,000 prims when you only need 10,000?
Service fees are a total rippoff, too. $150 for moving a region, and $50 for a rename? How much work is that, 5 minutes? With those 5 minutes including a coffee break. Totally out of line, especially when the need for these actions was triggered by LLs own messup with open space regions.
You are right about the in-world functions. I can’t believe that there still is a 50 percent chance of group chat not working. I can’t believe that we still have only 25 groups available, when on the other hand groups are needed for many inworld settings.
With some exceptions, customer service is bad on many levels. This starts with tickets not being worked on not only for days, but for weeks. Then closing the performance ticket with “everything looks fine” – while the region still is hiccuping all the time. Taking out useful viewer features (Logitech LCD keyboard support) with a “deal with it” attitude.
As Alberik mentioned: editable megaprims! Simply allow creating bigger prims. Again from k-grid: 256 is the limit there, a very useful and reasonable one. And, another nice point: I didn’t run into a “prims are too far away from each other to be linked” message yet.
Very important: work on the amok running g-team members and the policy of “Shoot first, never ask questions later!” when handling ARs. For example underage ARs: it’s unbelievable that accounts of people who successfully (even manually) verified their age already are suspended just because someone sent a fraudulant underage AR against them?. And it becomes totally nuts when that person is asked to send in exactly the same proof of age he already DID sent in months ago. Same kind of problem: returning kids skin vendors with the pictures of topless 4yo girls. At least some members of the g-team need a reality check – right now their actions are more or less cyber terrorism.
LL has to wake up and realize that it aren’t the few big companies who are responsible for the major part of the income – it is the thousands and thousands of little guys. What do they want SL to be: a meeting room for CEOs – or still a world of their customers creativity and imagination?
I’m still in SL, and will be for the foreseeable future. But now I also have a basis in k-grid, as small and shaky and technically behind it still is. The general feeling there is much better than in SL, I feel like I’m really welcome and appreciated there – instead of feeling like being just a paying nuisance in the eyes of LL. LL better wakes up.
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you do ALL realize that the story of Narcissus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissus_(mythology)
is a CAUTIONARY TALE.??
Where’s the reality folks?
Reality check after the web2.0 conf ghostown show.
Adobe is lost on web3d. They will only allow 3rd party open source basement teens to direct it’s future. They have buried web3d multiple times going back into the macromedia years. They wont spend real internal A resources on it. They have no reason too since 2d flash and 3d in pdf is their distribution bread and butter. The gimiky 3d they showed as FLASH3D at the web2.0 conference, and their public offereing that their only real clients are the GE’s of the world, suggests the path of adobe web3d for another 3 years.
Adobe wont create any realtime 3d tools, that leaves autodesk and any startups like unity3D and others whom need plugin players since they cant rely on flash to play their code.
The next 3 years –well have a bunch of web3d techs all competing to show 3d in browser again, some with MU, but most will again be 3d in a 2d page.Flash 3d will be what paper3d offers with just more complex meshes and overly simplified avatar graphics moving in first level accelerated 3d scenes. Dont expect even WOW- 7 year old immersion in flash….
For all those with no history, this was exactly the web3d marketplace from 2001-5.;)
Well get more habbo/metas/moshis made by those paid to entertain and make toys and games,, all with a bit more 2.5d and 3d data avatars runing over 2d backgrounds…(AAA game tech in 1998)
But mini habbos made easier for every small biz website? Disguised as conference meeting rooms with scoreboards??..it all sounds very “skip intro movie” to me….
But a metaverse, 3d web, with any real roadmap?,
One can believe in Open Source Sims miracles I guess;)
I still hope theres a few kids in a basement in Iceland that will infect us all with a p2p 3d kazzaa….
maybe next decade?
It seems to me that many of the Lindens are just out of touch with what goes on in SL, that they themselves don’t even use their own platform?
What does that say that the general communication from Linden Labs to its use base takes place on the web and not on their platform (which they say fosters communication)
They want SL to be the 3d Web, but yet we can’t interact with web pages, and we can only view videos in Quicktime (can someone wake up over there and finally implement flash?)
And do objects farther away from you load first?
And forget 6 million users, when we can barely get 60 people in one place.
“The more this game can be about me, and my real life, and my real experiences and where I live, and my real friends (can mean more than) ‘I’m going to go to the game and become an orc and get a real sword’,” Will Wright
The most important theme Will Wright is putting forward about the future of games is the connection to “my real life, and my real experiences and where I live, and my real friends.” User generated content creation, as pioneered in SL, is being discussed under this larger rubric.
Tish:
You’re right, and really – this was just a ‘quick link blurb’. It’s taking things a bit far to extrapolate either that SL is for narcissists or that Wright is advocating for much more than the observation that it is the shared experiences with friends and colleagues that can be the attraction for new users of games – for people who feel uneasy about becoming a dwarf or a furry or whatever.
His example of the Wii is telling. Or think Guitar Hero – the experience itself can be shared with “real friends” and is powerful because of that. But the game itself still asks that we enter “another world” and take on other personas.
I know that with GIS and phones and whatever there’s this trend towards the idea that data about your “real self” is connected through the end-to-end Internet and all that – but I see that as a slightly different domain than games and virtual worlds – augmented reality maybe, social networks and life-logging for sure. Will they blur? Yes, of course – I really do believe that Halting State is the clearest vision of where all of this is headed.
But I purposefully didn’t dig into his “real life” comment because it’s too easy to extrapolate that to mean “therefore, the future of mass adoption in games and virtual worlds is all about a 1-to-1 connection of actual identity with our virtual selves.”
I’m not quite willing to believe, I suppose, that augmentationism is the utopian ideal in which because we connect through game/virtual space without the mediator of alternate identity, we merge the actual and virtual, and thus speed the embedding of technology into who we are and what we do.
The more that games and virtual spaces are about shared experiences that feel relevant and social, the better. The more we can do so with friends, the better as well.
But watch kids gaming: they enter alternate realities and play with their friend from around the corner, but also create deep connections with people from the other side of the world, with alternate game spaces as the mediator of social connection, rather than ‘real lives’ necessarily being the jumping off point for connection, or more valued or attractive because of it. If that were the case, then my mom would have joined Facebook so she could play Scrabulous with friends.
I’m thinking here of Born Digital, in particular, as my touch point for a new generation born with twitch fingers and mySpace pages for whom identity and connection shuttles between “real” and “digital” and to whom this parsing of ‘real’ versus ‘virtual’ selves seems ridiculous – it’s ALL real, and what you and I think of as ‘real experience’ and ‘real friends’ are anachronisms.
“it’s ALL real, and what you and I think of as ‘real experience’ and ‘real friends’ are anachronisms.”
Your’e kids still toss out last years Aibo as quickly as you get a new ipod mini, and one good solar flare will point out real from virtual very quickly.
This thread is sounding more and more like 1992 jaron lanier stuff.. burning man -extropian religious vr stuff.
Will Wrights “talents” may have been fun while all his game “humans were ants” scattering around “game board cities”.
“who cares?” wonderful;\, narcissim as virtue not vice.
come on folks. stop blogging answers.. start asking questions…
Sorry I missed these inworld discussions but they always seem to come at a time when I’m busy with RL work.
I hope you will continue to push back against Robert Bloomfield. Of course, there’s more than a little fraud in all of his complaints as he himself has not himself created any sort of model of the type he insists on nor engaged in any quantitative research in SL. The “happening” of Metanomics itself doesn’t even qualify as qualitative research.
For a good novel that helps you think through and argue against the logical positivists, who have been around for a century, read C.S. Lewis’ That Hideous Strength. While written ages ago in the 1950s, it prefigures the Extropian/Singularity utopian ideals of uploading brains. It’s a great read.
It’s Palm Sunday — one more week to go, Gwyn : )
I’m reminded that I need to rewrite my big rebuttal of your latest analogue hole denunciation.
I hope the Lindens don’t screw up the viewer on the way to “fixing” it.
I don’t think the Lindens can really have a road map of the sort being demanded of them because the field is too new and the global economic crisis making things too uncertain.
The Guardian, the Telegraph, these are all old media, they’re jealous. They have Web 1.0 and even 2.0 gurus who are profoundly threatened by a platform that unseats them first and foremost, as I’ve explained over and over (i.e. in that thread on the Linden blog about the immersive work spaces).
Spimes? If I ever see one of them, I will crack it. In fact, I’m going to start carrying a little hammer around in my bag for that purpose. Goddamn things. Stop them before they get to a city near you. I’m not at all surprised Ugotrade is seduced by spime power, which was David Orban’s big thing a year ago and for which I denounced him, and for which my blog was even blocked in Technorati for a time (because Joi Ito funds spimes and couln’t bear for them to be trashed, but they have to be).
Please tell me where you can meet more than 60 people on a server — or for that matter, in RL, easily, and inexpensively. And..why you would want to meet with more? If you have a yen for broadcasting, do a podcast and put it up on Talkshoe or go on Qik.tv and stop ranting about the capacity of virtual worlds.
Will Wright was always trying to figure out how to break real life into pieces to reassemble it into simulated life and use it as a means to study real life. He used to talk about “investing your consciousness in a toy” in The Sims Online. One of the most fun aspects of TSO was getting to talk to Will Wright himself when he game into the game now and then on various characters.
I recently dug up an old Sims game reading list which came in the game instructions (WW would do things like that), which is fascinating:
APPENDIX 2 RECOMMENDED READING Here are some titles that might enhance your understanding of some of the background and social issues entertained in THE SIMS
Warning: all are filled with provocative ideas: Maxis disavows any responsibilty for encouraging deep thought.
Home: A Short History of an Idea by Witold Rybczynski (July 1987) Penguin USA; ISBN: 0140102310
Notes on the Synthesis of Form by Christopher W. Alexander (June 1970) Harvard University Press; ISBN: 0674627512
A Pattern Language:Towns, Buildings, Construction by Christopher Alexander, Sara Ishikawa,Murray Silverstein (1977) Oxford University Press (Trade)
ISBN: 0195019199
Architecture: Form, Space, & Order by Frank D. K. Ching, Francis D. Ching
(February 1996) John Wiley & Sons; ISBN: 0471286168
Housing by Lifestyle: The Component Method of Residential Design by
James W. Wentling (November 1994) McGraw-Hill; ISBN: 0070692939
Time for Life: The Surprising Ways Americans; Use Their Time by John P. Robinson, Geoffrey Godbey (Contributor), Robert Putnam (June 1997)
Pennsylvania State University Press (Trade); ISBN:0271016523
Maps of the Mind by C. Hampden-Turner (March 1982)
MacMittan Publishing Company; ISBN: 0025477404
Hidden Order:The Economics of Everyday Life by David 0. Friedman (September 1997) HarperColLins; ISBN: 0887308856
Making the Most of Your Lama by Linda C. Beattie (Editor),
Araneen Witmor(Illustrator), Kathyrn Doll (Editor), Dr. Linda Beattie
(September 1998) Kopacetic Ink; ISBN: 0961963417
Finding Your Perfect Love by Arthur Clark, Cassandra Skouras
(January 1998)Rosebud Press; ISBN: 0965276902
The User Illusion:Cutting Consciousness Down to Size by Tor Norretranders,Jonathan Sydenham (Translator)(April 1998) Viking Press;
ISBN: 0670875791
>the connection to “my real life, and my real experiences and where I live, and my real friends.”
Meh, get those spimes off my lawn. Virtual worlds do not *have* to connect to reality, and your connecting virtuality to reality may diminish reality as much as the escape to virtuality does.
Dusan – Yes, of course, the distinction between virtual/real is a fiction and not the point at all. But there is an important shift that has taken place (popularized by the iphone) – networked experiences are increasingly about who YOU are, WHERE you are, WHAT you are doing, WHAT is around you, etc.
On one level it is very simple, being tied to sitting in front of a pc is very restricting and a drag. We are becoming liberated from this lock in to the pc screen in more and more interesting ways. The best of what we have learned sitting behind our pcs, e.g., Will Wright’s comments about where Second Life has been on the right track re user generated content, will influence are creation of new untethered virtual/real experiences.
The frames of augmentation versus immersion and the terms Augmented Reality and Virtual World are inadequate and misleading ways to describe the new untethered virtual/real experiences we can and will create.
Prok – wow, wonderful reading list. Thanks – adding it to your previous references…I’ll hit you up in world to make sure I’ve got them all.
I think Prok is sort of echoing my comments about the real/virtual connection. While I agree Tish that geo-positioning and the ‘untethered Web’ is important, my concerns are around a few things, which isn’t to say that these technologies or trends aren’t useful:
- I’m a strong believer that the concept of the avatar, disconnected or loosely connected to the actual self and identity, is a repository for insights and change that is critical as we grapple with issues of self, society, privacy, and creativity. I tend to resist paradigms that seem, on the surface at least, as if they don’t respect the fundamental value of the avatar.
- I’m also a believer that virtual worlds are a space in which these same issues can be examined, discussed, studied, and a new language can result. Some of the language – immersionist versus augmentationist, or ‘real’/actual versus virtual, or identity versus identification are inadequate to the task but are what we’ve got (this is why I applaud the work of people like Tom Boellstorff, because he represents those who are looking for the language to frame discourse, whether it’s the meaning of AFK or his theories of techne within techne).
- I think virtual worlds are an important exploration space BECAUSE I believe that we need to be exploring these issues of self and identity now. The shift towards the “always on” and “end-to-end Internet” are happening rapidly, and I believe are happening without being tethered to thoughtful discourse around privacy, identity, and surveillance. Sure, the iPhone’s great – but technology is rolling out and it will be hard to put the genie back in the bottle: “real connections, real people” all that stuff – well, first, I frankly don’t need my friends Google mapping me and finding out where I’m drinking coffee. But I may not really have a choice – this Web of information and spimes and appliances and GIS positioning creates challenges that will bite us, and sooner than we’d care to think.
I suppose I sound like a Luddite. But having WHO I am, WHERE I am, WHAT I’m doing, and WHAT’S around me spliced into technology and the end-to-end Internet…to have myself “Web-embedded” like that….well, a Luddite perhaps I shall be.
Regardless, I feel that the use of alternate identities and the metaphoric and literal power of the avatar, the creation of safe spaces that are beyond this “always on” GIS and spime-enabled Web, and a counter-notion to the idea that being continually connected is necessarily a good thing can partly be accomplished by dispelling the notion that immersionist or alternate reality is somehow on a lesser end of the value or adoption spectrum than “hey, it’s the real me, and you can track me because my phone connects me to information appliances embedded in the world around me, and thus the Web is me, and I am the Web”.
even luddites are part of “reality”;)…although many of those who build/design/ and are funded to make networked digital mediation tools and media would rather just “delete” or “banlink” the luddites into the “nature”.
-the machine stops- em forster. 1909. better reading for this crowd:) 100 anniversary, so i guess we can call tish’s guest’s mostly old media thinkers..lol
http://brighton.ncsa.uiuc.edu/~prajlich/forster.html
Count on you for a good historical reference Cube. You’re the conscience of the 80s and 90s I know, just didn’t realize you went back to the early 1900s as well!
*prints out em forster for transit ride home*
Today I’m more a ghost in the machine of christmas past.;
Enjoy the Airship:)
http://blog.wired.com/sterling/2009/04/bruce-sterling.html
OK this is precious… reality and virtuality the same thing? Will Sterling be the next to mea cupla ala Lanier in the make believe world of the current internets…?
I wrote 3 years ago those who live by the blog will die by the blog.
boing!!!! boing!! looks like reality is hitting him in the nuts. Now i feel for him in realife empathetic ways, BUT….;)
lets see some balance occur…. but binary religious followers should know— heaven or hell is all they get;)
Is the machine is ready to eat one of its most vocal zealots?
BTW- did you like the Forster short story? I read it first in high school in 1980. kicks all CC doctorow, sterling ass;)
and it’s now FREE courtesy of copyright laws, not trendy attention meme bloggers efforts;).
Trendy? Who’s trendy?
And yes, I did like it.
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » CNN on Second Life Medical Training [...]
Re: “Moodle is the world’s most popular open source learning management system, with over 30 million users”
I question this claim. I think what happens is that in-group of opensource boosters tell each other on forums “Oh, I’ve just installed Moodle and I teach a class of 100″ or “I have 2,000 students in all my courses” and that way they can all claim “users”. These hapless users have Moodle pressed on them.
I encountered Moodle in that massively ridiculous massively multiplayer online course in “Constructivism” this last fall, and I found it clunky, annoying, filled with opt-out features people hated, etc. Like Drupal. Like other opensource thingies we are all “supposed” to like. If it worked, if it wasn’t clunky and non-user-friendly, if the people flogging it weren’t so religious about it, it if were self-evidently easy to use and helpful, I’d have no need to post here.
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » Quick Link: Will Wright Says Second Life is On the Right Track – Virtual worlds and creativity, business, collaboration, and identity. [...]
[...] Insider Linden Lab Finally Cracks Down On Second Life Porn by Eric Krangel on Silicon Alley Insider Quick Link: Will Wright Says Second Life is On the Right Track on Dusan Writer’s Metaverse Teaching journalism with virtual worlds by Cory Doctorow on boing [...]
I love it when Black Board employees post.
I’m pretty sure Dan, if you’re referring to Prok, that he’s not a Blackboard employee.
I have issues with Moodle as well, by the way, and I do feel it’s the victim of one of the perils of open source projects: it is not as polished as it should be, and it ends up with clunky bits and pieces and a crappy interface. I can’t really comment on the install base, it’s a good point however – metrics like that can be a slippery issue. Besides – maybe half the users are bots.
Wow, impressive! Is this related to the ‘Texture Pipeline Improvements’ Linden have previously scheduled. Are we talking a shift in transport from UDP to HTTP for example?
https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Texture_Pipeline_Improvements
/me applauds Tom Grimshaw for proviing what I and Balpien Hammerer have been telling Linden Lab for months… and for doing what Linden Lab failed to do. GO TOM!
And yes, when Linden Lab announced their “grid in a box” offering the first two things that hit me were:
1. It’s not gonna be cheap
2. OpenSim is already doing that for free
LOL LOL LOL
Linden Lag: Years late, ton-a-money short
Awesome news – congratulations!
One thing to know is that Metaplace worlds really are all worlds, so cross-world chat is actually a default part of the experience there.
I should have pointed that out, I suppose Raph – but chat within a platform isn’t as much of a stretch as chat across platforms. You don’t see people in WoW chatting with folks in LOTRO, at least not from “within” the environment.
What’s interesting about your comment is that you are calling them “worlds” – and I sort of think of it as one world (or community, say) which has many smaller environments – it’s a world tied together by the community functionality and sense of shared spaces.
The fact that you call it cross-world implies that you think of Metaplace as a community with individual worlds within it? I think of Metaplace as a world with a very dispersed and widely varying geography that will soon start to propagate across the Web.
And btw – in Second Life, you can chat across “world” (i.e. sims) as well – so does that mean they beat you to it.
Hehe.
So, er, there was chat bridging, via HTTP if I understand correctly. Well.
Ordinal – I reference this particular event because I experienced it.
I wasn’t really talking here about whether the technology was some sort of blockbuster – it’s chatbridge, and Grace’s cross-world concert was another example of sorts. If I made this sound like I was raving about the technical accomplishment I apologize.
Miki Gymnast, best I can tell, has taken the technology component much further.
I’m more intrigued by the experience of bridging worlds and the sense of shared community that it can provide. That was the main point of the post, or thought it was.
Pardon me while I scrape my jaw off the floor. Simply amazing speed!
I, for one, have been on the receiving end of dismal texture load speeds since joining SL. I can’t afford the ultra-fanciest computer equipment, so I get to trudge and slog through grayness the majority of the time.
Oh, if only would LL hear my cry and actually make speedy, efficient texture loading a priority and a reality. Haven’t I suffered enough? (On the plus side, I can navigate almost exclusively with my minimap–it’s like a 7th sense, except that my 1st sense is all gray to begin with…)
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » OpenSim and Rezzing Textures: 200% Increase in Load Speeds [...]
[...] http://dusanwriter.com/index.php/2009/04/10/opensim-and-rezzing-textures-200-increase-in-load-speeds... [...]
you know sometimes… just fot meta yuchs, I actually “email” a person when using SL.
Or if i really want to be cutting edge, I’ll “call someone” on the phone when still looking at the world of wide, the web.
Once i even think i turned my head and spoke to one person on my left, and then turned my head to speak to the other person in the world to my right..;)
ok..im done..lol;)
c3
I dropped my jaw too. But then I asked myself why LL has not even bothered to test the Balpien/Wayfinder idea and my jaw was straight back on the floor.
Thanks for the contribution to OpenSim, Dusan and Tom. This should be a nice improvement and looks good under early trunk testing.
No, I was being a little snippy there, which I shouldn’t have – these things are useful and I’m sure that it was a productive discussion. I suppose that I am concerned that Metaplace, something which I very much like the sound of, still does not seem to be being used for anything in anger, as it were.
I’m pretty hesitant to use the term ‘virtual world’ – to date, nobody’s been able to define the world part satisfactorily: That is a definition that encompasses what they call a world, and excludes that which they do not.
I find it interesting that people would categorise Metaplace and Second Life under the same umbrella, when truthfully they are very different applications and aimed at very different targets.
Personally, I believe there is a big distinction between a virtual chat room and a virtual world; I think that content and flexbility are equally as important as the community.
Regardless, am I the only one that notice the sign appears to read “S&M Idea City”?
I have a hard time calling a metaplace room a world. The rooms that you see are so confined that calling it a world demises the word world. That doesn’t mean there can’t be nifty games/things in metaplace.
I was exploring a bit, and came across a couple of interconnected rooms, sharing a similar theme. Going from one place to another. Those rooms together gave me more of a world feel, which was nice. sadly I started to wonder, and what can I do here, like a sl noob.
I doubt that there any deeper games or experiences yet that make you come back to it.
Interesting.
First, the definitions of virtual world have been fairly settled for around two decades, so it’s interesting to me to see that people aren’t sure what one is. If it simulates space in some fashion, provides a proxy for users in the space, runs persistently independent of the users, and supports multiple users simultaneously, it’s a virtual world, whether it then has games, chat rooms, or whatever in them.
In Metaplace’s case, each world is a standalone server process capable of running anywhere, with its own completely independent codebase of behaviors. This is not true of an SL sim, where the common codebase of behaviors, automatic sim proxying, and so on, make it a coherent space.
Frans, don’t be fooled by the size we have chosen to offer; the technical capability is far more than that. The reasons why you can’t make places of much larger size have more to do with marketing than technology.
Ordinal, not sure what you mean “used in anger.”
@Raph
Maybe this is just semantics, but while you call an individual “space” a world, my experience so far has been that the SENSE of multiple users being simultaneously supported has been accomplished because of the fact that those worlds ‘connect’ through shared chat, tools, badges, Web site, friends lists, etc.
For you to say that each world stands alone and independently negates the fact that so far, at least, the thing that binds Metaplace together are these tools. In the absence of badges, a friends list, a shared “destination portal” etc – these may be individual worlds but they aren’t worlds I’d particularly return to because there’s no one there.
As Prok says – a world is a world because it has people, place and drama. And in Metaplace the drama is, to a great degree (or in my experience anyways) supported through these tools. “World” as the site of “culture” maybe, rather than whatever technical definition you want to give it, which is where perhaps I split hairs.
So while coherence isn’t currently achieved by a shared behavior codebase across ’spaces’, the coherence is achieved through these other things. When I’m in Metaplace, I’m glancing down at how many points I have, I’m tracking my friends online, I’m viewing my badges, and I’m jumping back and forth to the shared spaces of the Web site and the main “hub”.
I also think you’re splitting hairs because you want to make the point that Metaplace can be used to create worlds anywhere, easily, it’s like the Web, etc etc etc and god forbid it be associated with SL with which, as Tom points out, isn’t really a serious proposition (not meaning that Metaplace isn’t serious, just meaning they have very different ‘flavors’, attractions, code, etc.).
I don’t really think anyone will get the two confused, but maybe I’m wrong. And sure, you can keep going around and talking about how it’s NOT SL, although it risks sounding like a negation.
In the end we can set aside the semantics and change the conversation to one of ‘culture’ if you prefer: Metaplace may technically consist of 100s of worlds; but Metaplace as a culture is so far bound together by the shared sense of social connection through a broader set of artefacts that bridge those worlds. The resident protest wasn’t about what happened to individual worlds, it was about the cross-world artefact of meeping.
As time goes on and Metaplace worlds pop up all over the Web and those shared artefacts become less significant fine – each may have very distinct cultures. But so far, these shared tools and social connections are what makes Metaplace interesting to me – but if you want the domain of discourse to be on the individual chat rooms (or ‘worlds’) then I’ll be looking for a bit more ‘culture’ at that level, and I fear for now that it will look a lot more like Lively than SL at that level – empty rooms disconnected.
Interesting question actually.
I wonder: in WoW or other MMOs, I’ll take it that an individual shard is a world, per Raph’s definition. But if users on one shard could communicate with users on another while “in” the world, does this bridge mean that it is separate worlds talking to each other?
When we talk about the ‘economy of WoW’ or the ‘culture of WoW’ should we be clear that what we’re talking about are ‘the common economic insights from the individual sharded worlds of WoW’? (The worlds of worlds of warcraft?)
Which reminds me – where was this ‘decades old’ definition finally chiseled in stone? Best I can tell having read pretty much everything out there on the subject, it seemed to me that it was generally accepted as ONE main definition, but that there remains lots of dissension and plenty of alternate views – seems to me the literature gravitates to this for expedience sake in many cases because there are more interesting things to debate, but that it’s not like some sort of Oxford Dictionary entry or world standard or something.
Really interesting points.
I am not trying to make the argument on the basis of Metaplace’s brand identity, really, but more on the purely technical and factual level. I completely agree with you that as far as brand identity, we’re actually pushing entirely the opposite story! When asked by non-VW folk, I generally speak of Metaplace as a singular entity. And I agree that until such time as some of the worlds within the MP network reach a certain level of critical mass themselves, it is a network most interesting as a network, and not because of any given node.
When I made the original comment, it was actually more on the technical basis than anything else. MP’s own chat backend (not the bridge used for this event) uses Jabber, so it’s intended to quite readily bridge to any number of things, really; that’s what we use to allow MP worlds to communicate with one another.
Now, as far as cultural significance of bridging between worlds, that’s an interesting topic in its own right. VWs, particularly “social” ones not oriented around games, have a long history of “calving off” from earlier worlds, often down to the technical level. One consequence of this was a greater sense of shared culture across the different worlds.
Cross-world protocols for chat bridges date back to at least the early 90s, and were actively used in a few cases to bridge between “parent” and “child” MOOs and MUSHes. Meanwhile, the cultural gaps that remained the strongest were actually those that lasted across codebases; the space between Diku players and MUSHers was, and remains, large.
None of this prevented people from fruitfully recognizing that despite truly enormous differences in audience, intended purpose, and culture, game muds and education-centric MOOs were still “the same thing” in a deep and binding way…
As far as the definition… probably the most commonly referenced these days is Bartle’s in DESIGNING VIRTUAL WORLDS, because it was in print and commonly cited as authoritative.
PS, I would consider each WoW shard to be a separate world, yes.
Thanks Raph – I use Bartle as my own reference point.
But this discussion has really intrigued me (sorry if I sound at all argumentative, because this is a fascinating topic, and something I’ve been pondering a lot lately).
I’m wondering whether the definition of virtual worlds is being influenced by emerging ideas around community, identity and ’space’ as it starts to take alternate forms across the Net. It used to be we’d think of a Web site, but if a Web site also contains a Metaplace world, or a Facebook profile contains a world, and those worlds include connections via Twitter or whatever to other social ’spaces’ (albeit not always 3D), then I wonder whether our definitions aren’t starting to blur slightly.
OK – kind of a trailing thought here maybe. Have to think about it more I suppose but thanks for an engaging discussion.
Actually, there is only one world. Mine.
I am at the centre of that world, and I dont particularly care how you call the streets, villages, towns, countries, webservices, virtual visual area’s, chat connections and more places that make up my worlds. Thats all metaversial semantics.
It’s funny — while SL and MP don’t have that much in common as platforms, people worked at hooking up their chat – and it was more because the people knew each other to start with. They go to the same game conferences or something. So it was more about people knowing each other and wanting to get these two worlds to sync up then a sort of natural bridging. But I agree with Dusan, that’s the way to do it, because otherwise it’s artificial and even destructive, as MMOX is showing.
I will go on feeling as if Raph’s “worlds” are really like “lots” in the Sims Online or “sims” or even “parcels” in Second Life. I hear what you are saying, Raph, about how there are these stand-alone code bases and whatnot, but I’m just saying what it *feels* like now. I don’t feel as if I have a “world” all of my own in MP. Perhaps if I knew how to work the levers. But I feel as if I’m going to be dependent on everybody else’s knowledge, products, etc. so I have kind of a little satellite to their worlds/parcels/sims.
Maybe when the lots grow bigger and more happens on them they will feel more like standalone worlds.
I also hope you are not wasting resources somewhere keeping my “world” in a standalone box for me because I’m likely never to be able to work it up to much beyond the hotel, i.e. I think it would be a shame to be devoting an entire server to it, it could be shared with somebody else.
Keep me posted with these developments!
5 февраля компанией «Полисет-СБ» будет представлена комплексная система безопасности под названием «Экспресс». Данная демонстрация пройдет в Москве в Выставочном комплексе «Крокус Сити», ведь именно здесь в это время и будет проводиться выставка «Технологии безопасности», тематике которой «Экспресс» полностью соответствует.
Dusan, I completely agree with your point — and I think things are going to be changing to support those of us who prefer human stories to quantitative data. Daniel Pink has a new book out (”A Whole New Mind: Why Right-Brainers Will Rule the Future”) in which he makes a compelling case that our left-brain-focused society is on the way out. That gives me hope.
Great post, as always.
Joan
Oh, we fit hundreds of those on a box, so no worries Prok.
…there is one other possibility that is being neglected…. that virtual worlds can be contexts for qualitatively researching issues that are ethically or practically impossible in off-line contexts…such as sexuality or violence… such qualitative methodologies are able to produce understanding that is simply not feasible quantitatively precisely because of the potential disjunctures between on-line/off-line worlds… so “ethnographic experimentation” in virtual worlds need not just be read as favoring quantitative over qualitative research
Dusan, congratulations on your new relationship with Rivers Run Red, may it prove successful for both of your groups.
At last I am seeing (in your writeup, not so much at the Immersive Workspaces website) the beginnings of articulating why a 3D space with avatar might bring about more meaningful interactions than other web/telephone based meetings. As I make my case for considering it at my workplace, demonstrating this will be the hurdle while the technology is still in the realm of early adopters.
What is needed in my humble opinion are demonstrations and anecdotal stories/case studies backed up with scientific findings that show how our communication/collaboration is affected/enhanced with virtual world tools compared to more standard web/telephone or real life meetings.
We actually fly to meetings about how to reduce carbon footprint – but before you laugh, explain to me why I am flying to a meeting on virtual worlds?
[...] Rivers Run Red saved a client over $1 million dollars with a presence in Second Life using their Immersive Workspaces (TM) solution (in the comments of this post). [...]
[...] blogs, briefly mentioned on Virtual Worlds News, and covered more extensively on Osprey’s, Dusan’s, and Rik’s blogs. Rik also has an interesting screenshot on his Flickr [...]
great effort. We are upgrading this week and hope this fix is in. Tom — what is your shirt size! http://rezzable.com/tshirts we send you a freebie.
Hi~ I tried the source file from “Reaction Plus has released a ‘rework’ of the White Void premise, including source code.”, but after I just export the swf with source fla, edited nothing, the 3d plane can not wobble, and it can only move with x and y axis, please help for solution.
hi all
i found an article at flashenabled,one of the comments at this page–>http://flashenabledblog.com/2008/04/15/source-code-whitevoid-clone-by-craig/
by karlmaier said that by adding this line
camera.target = DisplayObject3D.ZERO
everything works.
pls pass on the answer
[...] Screen and the Great Divide Tom Boellstorff, in his study of Second Life, struggled with the issue of finding a terminology and frame of reference for our virtual selves. [...]
I could see people developing romantic relationships virtually where they never met in the material world. They could even marry legally by proxy and conceive children through postal artificial insemination, but what then of the children of such unions? Just a strange flight of fancy at this point, but hey.. It could happen!
While we cannot touch each other in virtual environments, as poignantly expressed in artist Alpha Auer’s “Body Parts” installation: http://npirl.blogspot.com/2009/03/body-parts-virtual-lovers-are-star.html, we can, and do, meet. We meet people from all over the world and share the same virtual space with them, and that is a gift beyond measure. Kudos to Newsweek for an intelligent and balanced piece.
Mirror or Doorway?
All virtuality groping into our reality requires this examination.
When the audience is many, the reflection becomes a culture. When the audience is one, the reflection becomes just another reflection.
The contradiction of the meta becomes even more obvious as we all “accelerate” our passings BUT try to convince ourselves we have “deepened” our connections.
Media Induced Pyschosis- MIPS. Its been the growing human condition for a century, and I dont see any singularity/transformative cure yet:)
Interesting that TRIBE, and GROUPME type websites keep failing the mass media meme test while MYspace, and FACEbook and Twitter, the more narcissitic the more valued?, type offerings keep growing and reflecting in our society.
Will Wright talks about Narcissism and the audience see’s it as a positive development in affect. very odd.
The metaverse will become more and more important with new interfaces. SL is a leap forward – one that was envisaged by SF writers such as Arthur C Clarke when describing how people can meet without travel. SL relationships and friendships are every bit – and more – personal and real experiences as letter correspondence. We hold up love letters as a great literary and “real” experience. Two people – or more where friendships are concerned – meeting and working/playing/loving together in a “metaverse” is most definately as real as any other relationship (the only sense not stimulated is smell…:)
SL is also a place where politics can be fought/debated and agreement found through an interface where the consequences of war etc can be seen as, well, lack of communication, hence, useless. No-one wins. People who use SL regularly usually get over disagreements and come to some sort of agreement and find they can work together.
Those on the left can argue/ fight/ disagree and find what unites them by joining sl left unity.
Теперь я скажу несколько слов о подводке к дичи молодой собаки и о ее стойке.(В работе собаки по дичи следует различать 4 момента (подразделения) ее работы:
1 — поиск, длящийся до того момента, как собака начнет причуивать признаки присутствия дичи в доступном для ее чутья расстоянии;
2 — потяжку — работа собаки, разбирающейся в донесшемся до нее запахе до момента окончательного определения ею наличия дичи; эта работа заканчивается
[...] anticipated Blue Mars for a long time, saying a year ago that it would raise the bar on what people expect from the visual presentation of virtual worlds. [...]
[...] He writes about virtual worlds, not just about SL. I have learned many interesting things about OpenSim and the discussions on interoperability. There have been posts on corporations doing business in [...]
Dusan, you righly are pointing out that BlueMars will be more of a competition for MMOs, console games, and perhaps casual games like Metaplace.
I thought the same thing, but after reading the really interesting interview on Bettina blog, I’m starting to think that they will place the brand exactly in the middle between the traditional MMOGs and the new social worlds.
From a certain perspective they are looking at the traditional scene of gamers and online massive multiplayers. You can see that from their attention to the gaming slang, launguage and mood. But from the other side, they are clearly looking at the social worlds people. Think to their attention to the educational, creative and corporate uses of the platform.
They are exactly in the middle of the road also in the context of user generated contents. From one side, the regular users won’t have any chance to create contents. From the other, the developers, for free, will have the chance to download a series of tools and create/import/upload freely their contents on Bluemars.
I saw the same approach with Kaneva, if though with less interest towards users/developers contents and with Metaplace, that is actively positioning both for mmorpg users and virtual worlds members, if though “in a sort of casual mode”.
I also think that this sort of mixing between social worlds and mmorpg could benefit the whole industry and acelerate the acknowledgement of metaverse culture.
The lack of cross-platform support is a big black mark in my books. I’d far rather something that was more inclusive and didn’t look as good.
@Pierluigi: As for the MMOG/social-environment divide, Entropia already straddles that – and I’m not sure that the blending is very successful. Are you?
I do agree that a high percentage of Mac users are early adopters of new technologies.
Also, I’m really skeptical of the long term prospects of any platform that is windows only. I know that sounds insane, but I believe in a few years windows will be fairly marginalized and that various unix based operating systems will be much more prevalent. It seems short-sighted to ignore that, but I suppose for the time being it just irritates us Mac users, and most people don’t care, so it’s irrelevant to game/VW platform creators now.
Bettina,
are you on a Mac or PC?…. Dusan?
cube3
Definitions count. Depending on how the Lab has defined “repeat logins” (and I can think of at *least* two ways) that chart could as easily represent grid instability combined with viewer crash rates, rather than returning users.
Without the definition of what the data means, it’s *interesting* but it’s not actually *useful*.
I entered the virtual world as contemplative artist and playful observer, not as gamer, social seeker, or advertising target (though I’m not averse to those- just not interested or able to play the active role), and am already put off by the huge differences in visual quality and performance on my Mac in Second Life. I have no desire to enter and learn and help grow an alternate virtual world unless one opens up that not only supports but is enhanced by Mac platform. There is only so much time in a day or, more importantly, a lifetime. I’m thankful that I do have the choice to use a Windows machine and sometimes must because I need to be able to see richness of detail and clarity of light that is not possible to see on even my newest Mac, but this frustrates me to the point I sometimes wonder why I bother.
True enough that we don’t know what “repeat logins” means precisely.
However, given the documented increasing stability of SL and the viewer, it seems unlikely that the growth curve is reflecting to any significant degree instability/crash-related logins.
To me, it still depends on what data we’re actually seeing charted. It’s got a name, but that could be quite a number of things.
I can’t in all honesty view the graph as much more than a curiosity without more information.
@Tateru I think that online gamers were (and probably still are) the leading generation for 3d virtual worlds and virtual environment users. People in the gaming and mmog scene created machinima, fan art. They are familiar with user generated contents. Some companies in traditional mmorpgs are also opening to a wide-huge use of user generated contents and there are no obvious reasons for this gap between social worlds and more traditional multiplayers.
All of this background could be a resource for social worlds.
@Cube – I’m on a PC and a Mac.
I have a Mac laptop which I use for all the usual stuff, and is my primary machine for accessing SL for business meetings, collaboration, that kind of thing.
I have a high-end PC for when I’m rezzing prims and because it supports 3DS and ZBrush and has high-end rendering hardware.
its bettina whos answer i think is more telling….
i was mac till 96, then added pcs to do rt3d since apple had no vision then:)
but as you suggest you do your SL and presentations on the mac, i would suggest that its still as it has been for a decade
no mac, no creatives that sell(make money from it) no virtual worlds 3d
only another game engine built…lol
Now, who cares about Mac OS other than the fanboys/-girls?
Share of desktop operating systems:
Windows Vista 22.29%
XP 68.27%
2000 1.24%
Total Win 90.99%
Mac OS 4.81%
Linux 1.05%
OMG, more people uses Win2k than Linux! Bad news for Mr. Tux. (I use Ubuntu though, tee-hee.)
Src:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems
i didnt say creative pros and amatures are fanboys of mr.jobs… they sadly are… as i was once…
but your numbers are irrelevant to the intent of what matters…
that 4.8 % are responsible for aprox 90% of the “paid for” content offered on the web that worth playing with or looking at.
in the tiny vr worlds fifedom of SL that is the only one, maybe IMVU to a bit. that offers mass 3d build tools for resale objects inworld, id bet the mac pc creator number is about 60-70% mac dominant, is there a linden labs blog on the mac/pc creation rates…?
bettina, what is the ratio of your NPIRL group?
I was once a mac user, and had to decamp to Windows back in 2000 due to a lack of good support for 3d.
IMO it’s not changed a whole lot, though it has gotten better. But most professional pipelines are not Mac-based in the game industry, they are quite firmly based on windows and 3d Studio Max is still the unquestioned juggernaut of most of the artists.
I personally support crossplatform 3d programs (like Modo) but seriously I doubt that Microsoft will lose its dominant position anytime soon, just like it hasn’t in the last 9 years since I moved to MS.
A very sleepy Bettina checking in. I have 3 pcs, two on xp and a laptop on Vista which I loathe. Used to have a Macbook Pro, which I enjoyed very much, but gave it to my daughter.
BTW, I had a lot of this first, weeks ago:
http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2009/03/blue-moon.html
For once it will be a joy to watch a world get up and running that doesn’t cater to Macs and geek early adapter sandbox types who crash sims, but to more refined creators who go through the strainer of an application system.
But as I’ve noted on my blog, and as you can see from the discussion there, a world where you can’t jump in and create at an amateur level is very dichotomized and a gulf between “talented” and “not talented” enlarges.
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.
As for sex, I’m betting that they will figure out how to allow this by saying it’s up to developers to label their worlds.
As for this Vista stuff, I saw it and checked it out. Vista, like it or not, is on every single computer sold in every mainstream normal computer store now, i.e. not all those geeky sites with names like Eggz4U or whatever but ordinary Best Buy stores. Furthermore, the graphics card that can play SL better, and play Blue Mars, is now in a lot of the Vista machines in the ordinary stores. So the time has come, and Blue Mars is ready for it, that’s not going to be an issue, from what I can tell.
Great posts both Dusan and Bettina. I believe it’s still just a beginning phase so a new platform entering this market has a huge chance. BM sounds like a platform with mixed functionality, hope their content creation and process will empower a vibrant economy, like one created in SL.
I think a lot of people are discounting the netbook market, which cannot do content creation in 3d whatsoever, yet can play Cryengine based games through a web interface like OnLive.
These may have a preponderance of Unix operating systems, but content creation on these systems is a moot point, you won’t be able to run the apps necessary to create it, unless they are also “virtualised” in the cloud – which I doubt will happen with most of the graphics apps anytime soon. You’ll be a “viewer” on these platforms in the main. Welcome back TV I suppose.
TV never left..lol it’s become youtube/hulu. and video storytelling wont die soon…neither did radio for TV..
Wake up Bettina:)– mac vs PC.. not just you..lol, but the NPIRL galz and boyz….the list on the pages rt side:) Macs or PCs?
Flash 2d animation /art exploded a decade ago from the MAC side…
The question is “have” enough creators working in 3d moved onto ownership of PCs as well…3DMAX.etc… or on they all on Macs still in the creative studios from NY to LA…
IF yes, web3d worlds may grow faster, if still NO, then as its been for 10 years, the wait will continue. But flash 3d -paperlike stuff- will grow- as it did in 2001-3 again. Erain stuff. but not worlds, really.. more metaplace tiles at best.
SL – was because of internal 3dtools/prims/PLUS IP rights , a lucky accident;) for many amatures to 3d media.. Thats as its obvious now, has been both good and bad for many who responded to the blog hype-press;)
2d media pros are often on macs
3d media pros are often on PCs, or even more obscure platforms like SGI workstations.
Cube, I think you’re not in the real world… 2d and 3d are different worlds. When I transitioned from 2d to 3d, I had to give up the mac. Most 3d pros are not on macs. It’s just a fact of life, not a judgement.
I like macs, don’t get me wrong, but the 3d world is mostly PC, and so your argument is lacking. You’re just acting like a fanboi, while missing the point that the virtual world biz will probably hold a lot of different platforms by the time its all through. Just because one isn’t working for your platform doesn’t mean none of them will, nor will the lack of Mac mean disaster for a Windows based world, nor will the lack of a mac client even prevent Mac users from entering it via bootcamp and similar.
And one of my best pals runs Windows in a window, on a Mac Pro… it’s as easy as that, really.
Bleh, fanbois.
lol.. im in the real world…. and I have a real world history between the mac and the pc, and the 2d/ 3d folks youre talking about. 20 plus years of them:) I introduced realtime 3d for apple in NY on the mac in 1995( epic apple fail) and bought the first version of lightwave for the PC in95 as well. for example.:)..plus i ran 2 web3d sigs from 1996-2003.
I think youll find that the “amatuers” that fill up and “created” things Like Second LIFE, from the creative side hype, are mainly mac folks, clothing textures(2d) and all.
YOull also find that creative media agencies are all mac dominant still, and thus didnt “believe” in 3d on the web until SL was on a mac in 2006.
And believe it or not, 3d game pros, using max and maya STILL dont really care about virtual worlds like Blue Mars, unless they are paid to work on/for them.:) Just as 2d pros in animation cared nothing for flash on a mac in 1996:)
in 2009 i do believe that cross platform has finally made a dent in the creative cgi users market.
how large a dent again, will be seen by the adoption of any of the windows only “virtual service worlds platforms”
where I am in the world dosent matter hypatia, where the rest of the world IS, will to the many who are spending tons of time and money in web3d content plays again.
btw-:)
“2d and 3d are different worlds. ”
that statement is very true from a creative service industries POV of the last 10 years….
but its also exactly WHY…windows only, or mac only web3d/ vr WORLDS online have failed for a decade.:)
in SL, both 2d and 3d combine, with some scripts, and hopefully some business accumen, to create a “new media” type.. REALTIME 3D.. rt3d. media.. which is what Im talking about, its what all these blue mars want to facilitate and transform into microcomerce trade profits…..
that IS the real world,
one ive been in for a decade waiting for you all to show up at;) and since the 2006 SL/blog break through of hype:) many(millions of you..lol?) are now here:)
staying is the trick;)
Well, call me a pessimist, but these are not statistics to feel great about.
It’s true that one analyst might say that yes, indeed, repeat logins are steadily increasing, but in reality one might also say that they’re increasing at the same level as they were back in July 2006.
The problem is, as the number of active users rises, this figure will naturally also rise – we would need to cross reference these figures the number of active users to find out if /repeat logins per active user/ are indeed increasing or dereasing.
I suggest the latter.
I was really happy that Newsweek wrote a story on our story. I have met many couples who have met online and have lived to have successful and happy marriages. People are always skeptical about online love, but until you experience it… it can’t be understood. Because it’s too hard to fathom it. I’m very thankful for what I do have… no matter “how” I found it.
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » Impossibly Positive: Love in a Virtual … [...]
The main differences between Blue Mars and Second Life are:
The Blue Mars platform has a superior performance in terms of visuals, physics and simultaneous occupancy.
Second Life permits end user created content.
I think the majority of Second Life users don’t really care too much about creating content. In the early days of Second Life most users were also creators but, after the massive growth of SL (yes — despite the bad press of 2008 which inevitably followed the good press of 2007, Second Life is very much alive and growing) most users are just users. But a subset of very creative and energetic users is and will continue to be attracted of the unlimited, informal and casual creativity permitted by SL. These users will stay in Second Life and continue to create compelling attractions, which will also keep casual users in. Also, the social community of frequent SL users is very strong, with personal and group bonds which are hard to break and will tend to keep everyone in. Blue Mars is one of the most exciting new developments in the metaverse, but it is not a Second Life killer. I expect both platforms will flourish.
At the same time Blue Mars can and probably will be more appealing to corporate and public sector operators. Dusan has concisely stated why: “For a consumer brand – a Red Bull or a Coke or whatever, the ability to tightly control the user experience will be a godsend after the flying phallus days of SL. The ability to track users, their time in a space, and to provide AI ’shop keepers’ – all big pluses.”. The flying phallus comment refers to the unrestricted user creativity in Second Life has resulted in some bad press: most articles about Second Life in the non specialized press are about virtual sex, scandals, financial scams and gambling — even though the last two things are history after Linden Lab has banned SL gambling and unregulated banking, and VR sex may soon follow. When I talk to new clients about Second Life, this is the kind of questions I get most. As a result of the bad press Second Life has been considered as an image problem by the most conservative operators, and I expect they will prefer the more controlled environment, and of course the superior performance, of Blue Mars.
I am especially interested in the the applications of online VR to education. The Cry Engine 2 platform upon which Blue Mars is based is more and more frequently used for education and professional training. Though there are no examples at this moment, I assume that the system components and educational material used for classes in Second Life, Power Point, video, voice, streaming video, Moodle integration etc., will be implemented by Blue Mars developers. But I expect the most popular edicational applications in Blue Mars will be those that require highly realistic VR environments with state-of-the-art visuals, illumination, physics and AI. Architecture of course, engineering, professional training for the industrial machinery, space, but also history and the visual arts. I expect historic events to be faithfully recreated in Blue Mars, and the platform to become a favorite of machinima producers.
Great articles from both Newsweek and Dusan! This deals with observations that also fit very well in the discour I was thinking of when I created the online debate group “Second Life – Is REAL!” over 18 months ago.
Please also join us there for discussing about the reality of new non-physical and live interactive narrative online communications. And what it’s relevance could be in the history of mankind… http://flickr.com/groups/slreal
[...] Read Dusan Writer’s interview with Mark Kingdon here. [...]
[...] Read Dusan Writer’s interview with Mark Kingdon here. [...]
Congrats, love all the changes & good job snagging M Linden
See ya on May 6th!
Most_excellent_news on all fronts. Kudos to the team.
who would have thought – there’s money even in virtual death. now all we need is the same service for atheists who want to be remembered and who want to offer their loved ones a place to go to 21st century style to mourn or just learn something about you (what they never did while you were still alive). I know I would love such a place for my late grandma. I’ve been thinking about virtual portraits in this context. maybe it’s time.
in 1996 we had set up “memorialnet.com” and even went online with 3d vrml memorial sections….. had a few “advanced” investor types looking.. but they couldnt see the generational hump….
i met a fellow last week or so at web2.0 conf..(dead as it was..lol) who today owns a website cemetery and is doing quite well…
death and taxes… and tech conferences….the eternal never ends.
ask him about this…
http://www.virtualworldsnews.com/2009/04/kansas-state-piloting-terraworld-in-second-life.html
ninth graders on the grid by “the fall” ??
There’s a hauntingly beautiful cemetery sim in the Japanese sims in SL. This isn’t so far-fetched.
Thanks for the comments – and for those of you who tweeted as well….I’ve frankly been thinking a little more about this. While I was snarky with my initial take – I mean, this seems like a lot of “upsell” by the funeral industry to me, there’s also something more profound in the idea of virtual artefacts.
I wrote a while ago about death and grieving and virtual worlds, so I’ll point in that direction if you want my less snarky take on things.
Oh – and I wonder if the Island of Lost Souls is still active?
http://secondlife.reuters.com/stories/2007/03/30/second-life-sketches-the-island-of-lost-souls/
Wait… what? Is *that* what hump-day means?
I’ve been doing it wrong all this time….
@Tateru –
HAHAHA – thanks for that.
Even in a virtual world people become attatched and need to grieve when they lose someone. Our service is totally free in Second Life Open to all residents of sl ,and now just recently added a first life section for friends or family that have passed. In world 17 months now running on donations and my pocket Stop by very tactfully done Mike Burleigh Caretaker/Founder Remembering our Friends Memorial in Sunset Arts II Sim in Second Life
I’ve visited a few virtual cemeteries in SL. Plus a number of memorials. Given the ages of many SL users, it isn’t surprising that some of us die of age-related illnesses and problems, never mind accident and misadventure.
A good friend of mine in SL has died approximately twice each year, on average. People I’d never have had the privilege to know if I’d been restricted to AFK activities.
A couple years ago, I proposed an idea to my living relatives of setting up a virtual cemetery for our deceased ancestors. I would tell by their reaction that they felt it was a completely morbid and disrespectful idea so I didn’t pursue it. But I would not be surprised if one day this becomes more acceptable.
I also am a member of the findagrave.com site, and try to participate in that as much as I can. It has been very useful.
[...] Love via Newsweek [...]
Regardless of the statistics, the reality is that technology is evolving and systems like this will be used more and more. Second Life will, undoubtedly, grow in the near future. Let it be 5 years or 10 years, it will be as common as video game consoles and the WWW. It is just a matter of time. I can’t prove this, but my background as a software developer and my education allows me to make these assertions.
I’m also a Mac user, and was very disappointed that AR doesn’t want to make a BM client that will run on the mac OS. I am a RL graphic designer and also an SL content creator. When I was in college (grad in 2000), I was trained in both 2D and 3D, the entire art department was all run on a Mac and were all Mac programs run on the Mac OS (no boot camp, no popping over to the PC), even for the 3D creation and animation. Our university had a whole building of computer labs, with one large special lab full of Macs for the art majors, so it’s not like the university was all Mac either. I also know that this hasn’t changed either since I’ve graduated. Although 2D and 3D are different, there are definite similarities and it’s not that big of a jump for a talented 2D artist to make fantastic 3D content. I wouldn’t have stayed in SL for very long if I wasn’t able to create. I am a creative and it is my passion to do so, I really have no desire to get in a 3D environment to just hang out. I’m not sure if I’m the typical virtual world user, but to discount a whole group of people like me I think is a mistake. I’m sure I will still be checking out BM, once I figure out how to use boot camp that came on this computer. But whether I stay or not will depend on what it’s going to cost me and if I will make any real income there– and if there are too many barriers, I’ll just stick with SL where I am doing just fine.
[...] that may one day be released as a standard component of browsers and is said to supplement the efforts my Mozilla to bring 3D to [...]
Nice post. I tend to agree. In browser 3d content will take a place aside fully-immersive 3d content platforms, like, dare I dream, a cryengine3-driven type of Second Life that enjoys wide adoption and rich community and economy.
http://www.starbasec3.com/c3patton.tgz
this model will load into the o3d sample viewer at googles lab..
this is good news… a overloard of distribution that tech geeks fear… and a simple browser plugin that from the get go works on ALL current platforms and makes mac creatives feel INVITED to the web3d party…..finally…
try the jungle isalnd scene, its looking mighty CRY..lol
shaders.. needs a decent card..but its the same basic tech that i beleive liveley used…. but stripped of all pretention to be a “service” ad driven “community” of avatars..lol
they just need to keep developeing the core engine/plugin and the import tools….bring all of max/maya animations to it. plus library up and make a free set of java behaviors ala LSL….
the firefox deal with knonos evaded MS.. this will just ignore them… ive already run all the demos in ie7 and 8 and firefox…
this is imo is not fcked up , the best chance at a rich 3d media for realtime web that ive seen in 15 years….
if goog then packages the tools and sells them ala sketchup pro.. and then releases the mu server from lively… or sells access to them as sunscription or rentals as isp…. then we got a real model for commerce…
also we need to get a better encyption that tgz… that like native vrml files will never fly to create a monified 3d web of places, not pages….
c3
maybe smiling..
just no google paid for cartoons…lol
partner google.. dont own creativity, or like AOL and yahoo, youll die…slowly.
i hear/feel your pain JG… only if they all listened to folks like me before.lol dozens told the tech 3d geeks all this since 1995s first showing of vrml by SGI in NY to NY creatives… oh well.
BUT… google, them techoverlords somehow DID finally open their listening port..lol…
O3D… right now plays on all platforms i can see, and can import collada from even mac based 3d apps…
i believe alot of exit plans just got shuttered today…. the death of lively might be the birth of real web3d internetz…:)
cube3
It is a shame that Google does not reach out and talk to and collaborate with companies that are already in this space, who already have defined offerings that are far ahead of what they are currently proposing. There are a number of companies like mine that have a wealth of experience running rich immersive 3D environments in a Web browser. We have been walking the walk now for over 3 years and yes with JavaScript and rich graphics, physics, audio and video.
People were getting all excited about what the Khronos group was offering with their low level API, yet they forget that 3D on the Web is not just about the 3D, it’s also about the logic that goes behind the virtual world or environment, the physics, interactivity, sound, video, voice chat and text chat, etc. How does that figure into the plan.
Google wants to own the world and the motto of “Do No Evil” has an increasingly hollow ring to it. Their attempts with Lively were laughable, they showed their inexperience and ineptitude in this space yet they think they know what’s needed for 3D on the Web!
Sure Raph is touting this as a good thing, he has too. He made his bed with Flash and the 2.5D limitations that go with it. I’m sure he would love to have access to full 3D and no downloads, it would get him out of a tight spot.
Clive:
I should mention Pelican Crossing more. I think you’re right about Google – I wonder what their process is for stuff like this – rip through other code to see what works, or act like mad scientists in a lab with no windows.
The advantage to what Google is doing I’ll leave to people like Cube, I guess – I can’t interpret whether the plug-in itself will do what it says it will. But the big advantage seems to come from the fact that they might eventually be able to migrate it directly into the browser and avoid plug-ins entirely – ANYthing to get past those pesky IT folks and weird security settings that prevent folks from downloading the simple little (or large) apps they need to make stuff run.
Raph took the approach he did so that he could be decoupled from the client, can build an architecture that supports the buffet of client types that will emerge in the years to come (mobile, surface, holographic, whatever), and in the short term meet his goal of NO download.
Unfortunately, while Pellican Crossing is a great app – and I’ve visited the showcase worlds btw…there’s still the download, and I found the process for finding it and installing it sort of baffling, but maybe that’s just me. For whatever reason, I guess I put it in the camp of Unity and Quest – ‘browser-based’, but needing a plug-in, which isn’t meant to belittle it, I’m just explaining where my thinking was with the Google announcement.
@Cube3 – I agree with you – it seems to me that whenever Google gets out of the app business and into stuff that involves communities or whatever they come up empty handed. This seems to stick to what they’re good at, which is tech, and perhaps the tech is partly derived from Lively, I have no idea.
But I also agree with Clive on something: I can’t help getting this odd tingling of warning that Google seems to be, well, pretty much everywhere.
im no fan of the googleplex terra 1….
i think ive made that clear before, here and elswhere.
ive known of clive and pelican since the atmosphere days.. i have reached out a few times since, but frankley it all has to work BOTH ways clive….;)
resources are always tight. BUT….
I was close to how flash and 3d via kinetix found dominance… and so far NO web3d/vr worlds platform has come close with that understanding of the relationship between the “showmakers” and the “techmakers”.
they say they do. buts its always too late…and another bubble bursts and more 3d engines just get lost to be reinvented as “whaterver” teh trend is at the next set of orielly hot tub shows are:)
Ive been through 100 3d apps in a decade, so forgive me if ive seen it all, and dont have much pity for the small or the large players who cant seem to ever see beyond their own “expertise” and realize that were not all here just to annoint them “game gods ” or help them reach a solo 4 billion dollar valuation with their bankers or exit plan to google.
and you really dont want me to tell you the truth about “open standards” and web3d orgs..lol do you.?
google is a double edge hoot, it creates fear in content owner makers and code makers as well..
something MS never evolved to do…
its your world, i only rent here…lol
This is great!
Our enterprise clients are in need of these solutions.
I am glad to see it is approaching us
I wonder who will become supreme ruler of this web based 3D browsing?
Project Wonderland
Google
Unity
etc.
etc.
Any takers?
[...] BlogsRelated Blogs on love at the end of the worldBalloon Juice » Blog Archive » Open ThreadDusan Writer’s Metaverse » Impossibly Positive: Love in a Virtual …Slaid Cleaves: Everything You Love Will Be Taken Away « HyperboliumRelated Blogs on sam [...]
@Dusan That’s OK, I know you are more into Second Life than 3D on the Web. The problem of finding the plugin should not really be a problem. If you hit a Web page that has 3D content and you don’t have the plugin installed, it will start the download/install for you, assuming you give it permission. Unity works the same way and as far as I remember so does Vivaty and Quest. It works exactly the same way that Flash does. And to be pedantic here, Flash has a plugin as well, it’s just that it has become so ubiquitous that it is delivered with the browser. Every now and again you still have to download the update, all be it a small one. In the next version of Blink 3D the install process will be even smoother and faster taking only around 90 seconds.
I think the thing that worries me most here is that Google is a threat to my livelihood and a host of other companies. Yes there will be new opportunities but I have invested a lot of time and money in the current one. Also with Open Source projects, if you really, really, don’t like the direction they are taking you can fork the code and go your own way with it. With O3D the code has to be delivered with the browser to get the benefit of no plugin download. Only Google will have the clout to make that happen with all the browser vendors. So even if I took O3D and made what I thought were improvements, I would not be able to get it distributed if Google did not like the improvements I had made.
Now I suspect Google will say that this will be an open standard and that they will hand it off at some point to an independent body, maybe, maybe not. But I think it is very scary when a player like Google tries to dominate a space like this. You know that Adobe and Microsoft will be more than a little concerned. Check out the license agreement for O3D, while reading it I was bracing myself for the follow on full body cavity search!
@cube3 I’m sorry I can’t quite remember what you and I spoke about, but I suspect it was something to do with VRML/X3D, which is I’m afraid something I’m still not interested in.
@Andrew With Oracles purchase of Sun, Project Wonderland may get a rough ride. Having looked at O3D from Google, they have a very long way to go, doing things like inlining shaders into the JavaScript of the hosting HTML page is not the way to go at all, it is a totally unscaleable approach. It is also hideously complex, I code for a living and it made my toes curl. The fact that their tiny island world is a whopping great big 17MB should be sending off alarm bells everywhere. In Blink 3D you can have a a virtual world with 4 city blocks for less than 8MB.
So speaking of Blink 3D, perhaps you should at that to your list, preferably at the top
I’ve been following this for a while. There is already an ISO standard for this called x3d (formerly VRML). Blink 3D and others use it already. Why go through all the hassle of creating a new system when one already exists?
Browser makers need to add an x3d viewer as a standard, the sooner the better.
Your last paragraph is spot on!
I had nothing to do with vrml or x3d. It had everything to do with the web3d business and adoption of the media by customers.
c3
typo and maybe freudian slip.. damn you blogs…lol
it should have read:
“IT had nothing to do vrml or x3d…”
“I” yes, tried many times to make business happen with those “standards” and the “players” around it.
The stated vision was good, the reality of the executions just horrible.
I do “feel a bit for ya clive” but “non coders” who want to make products in web3d have heard and felt this all before.
c3
Bravo!
Absolutely looks great, and Wednesday is the beginning of a new week, for me at least.
Great site, well polished and I look forward to reading (and seeing) more!
“but “non coders” who want to make products in web3d have heard and felt this all before.”
Could you elaborate? Blink 3D can be used by coders and non-coders, that was one of the main design goals of the product. Or are you referring to other companies/products?
when your rl partner is on sl, meeting new people – it’s scary, and it is so easy to feel second fiddle. It is a huge test on your relationship and can increase the distance between you, especially as they spend more time talking to others intimately, and less time talking with you, realizing, perhaps that their rl relationship isn’t what they truly want. Is that a good thing?
Blink 3D can do A.
Unity 3D does B
Axel3d did C
VIewpoint did D
Cult E
Shockwave F
etc etc.
Over 100 3d companies and Products over a decade.
And “used by” and “viewed by” are two different things:)
cube3.com
Believe it or not, I thought about this idea three years ago. Back then, I was thinking that a virtual memorial space in Second Life would be a good place to be remembered. You can set up a room or garden to contain that which reminds your family friends of you when you were living. It could be photographs, furnitures, replica of RL belongings, video recordings of special events in someone’s life. I think it was a great idea then. I salute the ones who actually made the service available.
I’m the only one in this world. Can please someone join me in this life? Or maybe death…
[...] being done right now with 3D desktops (like the sparkly and intriguing Bump Top, for example. Or Photosynth, which I mentioned above, which turns photos into a David Hockney [...]
Maybe RT3D media is like God.
It has many names and it only exists on faith.
Less time naming/writing/conferencing…more time doing/learning/exploring for more than just a few. That would really mean more to a better tommorrow for the medium.:)
Interestingly enough, last night we had about a dozen “web3d.oh;)” virgins show up from all differnt platforms/in many different browsers, and chat about and watch some video clips from a late night TV show. The shows Host/creator joined us for the test. All were tv/ website media savy creators of film/print/media etc. All had never done any “second lives” though some had played video games in youth or on consoles in the last years..etc…
Through the typical “bugs” and “limitations” that dont make it in the press releases or conference canned demos, we managed to “communicate” using realtime 3d media to augment the text chat and video viewing. Plus a few misplaced “dance” gestures got a laugh from those not part of the metablog hype and yet unaware of the looming crackdowns on adult virtual gyrations to come.:)
BTW- this audience was not a target market for the technology/service used. But they all expressed interest in MORE.:)
So tommorrow comes anyway, no matter what a transitory conference speaker calls it:)
So Millions of US, is now back to Hundreds, at the conferences?
But what of the millions to come to the worlds. not to the conferences? So much more there to DO.
c3
Nice. Thanks for that c3.
@Giulio Prisco: “I think the majority of Second Life users don’t really care too much about creating content.”
I am not someone who can “create content.” But in SL I am in an environment with a very low bar to entry for creators. This results in a very wide selection that helps me be whatever I want to be. If, like Sony Home, creation is limited in Blue Mars to a few, why would I want to be a part of that?
As for Macs, I’m all for Mac clients. And Linux clients.
My personal experience with SL on Macs is that I don’t see any difference that can’t be explained by hardware or drivers. I think one of several right moves that Linden Lab did was to make their client Open Source and ported it to Windows, Mac (Universal binaries!), and Linux.
The words we use to describe Virtual Worlds have a tremendous impact on how people perceive their potential value. If we say, “its really not a game,” the person we are speaking to will focus on the word “game” and be suspicious that it’s really nothing more than just that, a game. But if we say Virtual Worlds are “game-changing and transformative technology,” the person starts thinking “how can we use this to be more competitive and win!?”
As you pointed out, the word “immersive” works the same way. This is one word I just don’t use, unless I’m talking about a training scenario where complete focus on the VW environment is desirable.
The phrase most business people seem to respond positively to is “3D Web Collaboration.” They “get” this. People know what the web is and better collaboration, be it internal, with suppliers or customers, is something every business needs/wants. All that’s left is to show them the advantages of “3D” and the features, functions & benefits it provides.
Getting people through this “virtual door” is the key. They can then be guided towards 3D content and applications that engage their own creative imagination. Once this “spark” ignites, people will actively seek out solutions and partners to help them maximize their Metaverse Potential.
“I’m not sure who these people are pitching to, but maybe they need to find the folks in the corporate chain with a little more imagination than someone who convulses and twitches if you use the words ‘game’ or ‘virtual worlds’.”
Loved that quote
Good read as usual. Still think it will be a while before the ‘why’ takes of. The paradox of these big brand companies is even though they bring weight to the discussion for the evangelists, they don’t work as well in the the offices of real world clients. These companies are everywhere, have huge R&D budgets and often push innovation themselves (IBM & SUN) so they don’t really make the case for the >F500 companies. That’s our experience at least 
This is truly interesting. Who would have thought that murdering an avatar would warrant such attention!
“Because the richness of virtual worlds is increasingly an ecosystem of connections and content that bleeds from Web to world”
One of my favorite passages from the above-
It is persistent, it is rich and it engages the adult mind in ways that makes the mind want to do more. Even to justify the tiem we spend in SL, we begin to live up to best practices as human beings.
If thsis can bleed from web to world, aye, so much the better for all of us.
great idea. if the regionally close avatars could switch to other common interest variables anytime this would be more valuable. btw what caching solution second life is currently using?
I think you’re safe if you call it just blandly “online”. “Online” is one of those words that people accept, and it sounds modern and “focused”. So you can then say “online meeting”. Or “online space”, and then it all goes down more easily.
[...] Where Virtual Worlds are Going: Why is the New What, How is for Tomorrow (Report on 3DTLC) [...]
message from the future…
nope.
Somebody has to pay for such spaces, it is difficult to offer them for free. And those that have tried getting entire cemetary sims rented out can’t get them rented out. There was a beautiful project by Metabirds, a Japanese cemetary called Memoris that had headstones and mourning suits and such for sale and low-cost plots to rent. I hardly found anyone using it.
And I don’t know why. I guess because it doesn’t feel real, and because if you are going to have a place to memorialize someone, you may want it to be different than just a replica of a RL cemetary with just a headstone. You might want it to have more capacity like a webpage with pictures etc.
Nice build, Dusan! Good fortune to you on the new season.
[...] Dusan Writer on Papervision — I haven’t really looked all through this expansive one page of Papervision but it looks semi-promising (as a page of links to other valid resources). [...]
I second what Jeremy above says and if anyone finds something like it at home on my own computer… please do tell. I think it would make the mother of all To Do list managers.
[...] The show can be attended in-world at the new venue of Metanomics, but also on the website of Metanomics (read more about the new venue on Dusan Writer’s Metaverse). [...]
Versions with running shadow code are easily available from the Lab, but there’s a four-step process to turn it on, and it was only designed to work with Nvidia 8+ chipsets (though I believe it will work with one ATI chipset, if you have the right drivers).
If you’re stuck, give me a holler.
Doug… again, many thanks for joining the experiment
Your insight on what really matters in these human networks was a great bonus.
We hope to do more voice events on Orange Island in the near future, and we’ll hopefully have more opportunities to have you as our guest…
Man, that was awesome. It never dawned on me that there were shadows included on sl but then again I’m just a baby resident. I’d be interested to know if you ever get them running.
Hi Dusan, don’t forget to change settings in the debug menu.
Find ‘RenderDeffered’ and make sure it is set to ‘FALSE’.
Find ‘RenderUseFBO’ and set that one to ‘TRUE’.
Go back to ‘RenderDeffered’ and set that to ‘TRUE’ also.
It worked for me.
Same has to be done with Kirstens viewer that incorporated shadows.
More on:
http://www.vintfalken.com/kirstens-viewer-sl-shadows-for-the-masses-with-good-enough-pcs/
Oh btw, I enjoy your writing very much Thank you.
[...] May 6, 2009 by piensl Una actualización de SLOODLE se anunció el mes pasado. La nueva versión, Sloodle 4.0 promete renovar el sistema y fortalecerlo aún mas. Ver mas información en Dusans’ Writer Metaverse. [...]
missed the talk. did anyone ask him about the kiddies comming onto the grid this summer/fall?
dates..etc.. all those educators announcing 9th graders and all
Dont know who came up with it first but the name, Grid, works for me. We have the Web (2D) and the Grid (3D). They the same thing really in what theyre for. Is games on the Web but we dont refer to the Web as a game. Same with the Grid. Is games on the Grid, virtual worlds even, but they only one aspect of it really even if at the moment they pretty much all of it. Be lots of other ordinary everyday uses on the Grid soon I think just like there is on the Web.
Also I think the Grid in a Web browser is not really the way to go. Is to much difference in how the Grid and the Web work. Is possible to do of course but what has been done to marry the two has been pretty clunky to use even if is a technical kool in some cases. Probably be best I think to make a Grid Browser from new. The Web and Grid have about as much in common as say a word processor and a video-editing program.
Cube – yes….M responded to that question in the follow-up on the Web site. Check it here:
http://tinyurl.com/pzapzx
The problem with the SL2.0 roadmap, and it’s not of M’s making, is that it is very very familiar. That is because the company has a somewhat embarrassing history of over-promising and severely under-implementing. If you dug out a Philip Linden interview from the second half of 2008 you would read essentially the same promises but with a time frame that has already passed.
There is an excellent business case for the company leadership to identify something concrete and visible they can get done in the near future and making it a priority.
Mark Kingdon said “Profiles on the web are coming. Our second busiest page on our website is the place where you can find your friends online. I could build an empire around that alone! So, yes, social tools are coming.”
Thats good. Will give new people coming from 2D networks something they can relate to and use immediately while they trying to figure out how the rest of it works.
Someone tell M Linden that SL Voice is horrible in comparison to Skype
“Someone tell M Linden that SL Voice is horrible in comparison to Skype”
And the Skype emoticons are horrible in comparison with Second Life
O.o
I thuroughly enjoyed this session. A fun active crowd, and a general back-and-forth community conversation was just what was needed.
I know for me personally, this was the first time I got to hear M Linden respond to users first hand. Of course he’s talked in the past, but this time was the time I got to be involved…. when that happens with the Lindens and residents, it’s a very powerful thing.
I would suggest and encourage ALL the Linden employees to make an effort to come inworld, host talks, parties, gatherings, sessions.
[...] Lab’s decision to create a continent in Second Life for explicit adult content had me picturing wagon trains loaded up with dance poles and avatar, um, [...]
The rebuild of the Metanomics site is good. It has a more innovative and yet warmer feel then the the sort of 1970s modern chic that made it feel like Merv Griffin’s set. I still think cutting-edge builders should broaden their pallette from burnt sienna to ochre, which seem to be the new black this season, but it’s good enough.
I like the new logo, which I think is like PigPen’s hair and aura, and that’s fine. I’m told by Joel it’s a Rorschach blot, and many people see different things in it.
Best of all, the website has shed that idiotic registration that 57 Miles/Nick Wilson imposed on it which made it so clunky and irritating and which didn’t really create accountability in posting anyway.
So now that I can post there without having to register, i.e. have the ban that existed under the old registration system for no reason other than hysteric thin-skinned geeks ARing me, I will likely continue posting.
I bet this new site is not made with Drupal. I don’t see that what it is, but it doesn’t seem clunky and over-complicated like Drupal.
I note that M didn’t say anything about copyright for the world — oh, he did say something about copyright for himself and his friends: “We have no plans to release the server code.” Good!
I note also that Keystone Brouchard did NOT turn this build for Metanomics into a collective farm/group build/shared object blah blah. It’s just by him. That’s great! It’s not on share or copy. Even better! I’m all for geniuses working in solitude, creating, and putting IP protection on their creations! Good!
However, note that *collaboration* can still take place, as Dusan and others do push pieces of builds into the picture. So it has its group qualities, but without being a collective nightmare.
Actions always speak louder than words on a build like this.
As I said in the meeting, the conceps of Collapsing Geography (Cory Linden) and Constructing Geography (Philip Linden) are always warring within the Linden soul, and we are at the crosshairs.
I’m glad you’ve exposed the sort of rootless cosmopolitanism which is at the heart of the Cluetrain Manifesto which ushered in the Web 2.0 heist and devaluation of creation on the Internet — place without space devalues private property and intellectual property quite handily, and that was the intention.
Yes, in some ways the world’s geography can said to have begun to be eroded with the first p2p teleports that went in in 2005 (and the concommitant removal of telehubs), but the same could be said about the first private islands in 2004 which created spaces where you couldn’t have contiguousness anymore and could only TP to them.
The Lindens turned out to be more about search than geography in the press conference we attended, it isn’t so much as conceptualizing a red light district as it is symbolically representing the filtration of search.
Given that the mainland is only a fraction of SL, 4000 simulators out of the 32,000 or whatever, and given that many adult-marked islands will also be appearing in addition to Ursula, you can’t really say that there is a red light “district”. But of course the Lindens continue to see the private islands as not public spaces, even though many are.
As I do not have the way with-all to even begin to fully understand the philosophy behind the thinking behind
“These two spaces, lived space and measured space, are quite distinct. Lived space is different everywhere we look…Our space is full of opportunities, obstacles, and dangers, or what the psychologist James Gibson called affordances and the philosopher Martin Heidegger called the ready-to-hand. This lived space is the opposite of the measured space composed of uniform segments like the grid on a map.”
it does strike a chord with me when put in the same context as
“The deepest challenge, I believe, facing Second Life is the ability to find stuff, and under ’stuff’ I’d include both content and people.’”
But what I would say is my belief is we as a species, have an innate, gift for taking technology and tools, and incorporating them into what we in later generations perceive as “normal” I vaguely remember the introduction of the Telephone, and hearing my Dad yell down the phone, to as i guess in his mind help those little electrons travel their perilous journey to whoever he was talking to at the time.
Today who would have thought as we see the facial expressions of folk on their mobiles, in public places grimacing and flailing their hands around, leaving you no doubt that the “connection” is as real as person in same “space”.
So what am I saying? seems to me you were right about conflicts in Linden Labs concerning direction of fundamental ethos in direction grig/space/platform should go, and I for one taking my belief as stated above, that we as a species will inevitably, take on this new world format as the “norm” within our perceived space, and our perceived space, although influenced by this new perceptions afforded by virtual world, will not deviate from what we see as the norm, ergo The red light district is not on some foreign continent, but at hand and where the Taxi’s will not take you, but you see from your hotel room, or tour bus.
The main question facing us is whether those two opposing views i.e. benevolent Governor versus Corporate Guru will somehow communicate and take heed of the creators of “stuff” who after all makes this crazy world go round and come to some middle ground.
Thanks for the post even though I only managed to glean a bit from it “grin”
Julius Sowu Virtually-Linked London
Has anyone really experienced a continent?
I quite agree that Linden Lab is attempting have its cake and eat it too. I can’t remember the last time I experienced the grid except on a sim by sim basis. I’d like geography to be important, but once you get beyond half a dozen to a dozen sims, I don’t think it matters very much where one thing is in relation to anything else on the grid.
I find that to be the case not because the potential isn’t there but because of longstanding technical limitations. One hope I’ve had for a very long time now is that the next generation (2.0) would allow for immersion in larger spaces (or smaller ones, making privacy more affordable). As long as view distance is short, and sim border crossings so treacherous, thinking on the scale of continents doesn’t really matter.
i think content/context values can easliy flourish without “geographic” locality. The real issue is do you own/have sufficint rights the “storage device” or land you create on/in.
freeing “invasion” as a comprimise on the way to the resourse economy aint so bad…it did allow for the USA to form 300 years ago….the question is how to retain a vested interst in the other, and not forster isolationism.
i think freeing “virtual ventures” up from the simple “bad neigbor” effort is fine. But its not fine to toss the baby( civic responseblity) to the other out with the bathwater(gridded systems)
so far its just sad that LL takes the worse of each to make its systems. but thats how they roll, over their customers.:P
and with seemingly now idea how PEOPLE work, and an misguided arrogance to how machines should…
such is the way at all companies run by binary technicians.
maybe all youre really asking for dusan is an “interface” designed for how “humans” want to use virtual worlds… not one created for how a virtual world can be used by its humans…
avatars the key? well he first virtual travel games all had PDAs as record keeping devices, or journals..etc…. utility belts etc etc… metaphors matter less, than designed executions based on real user needs, not whatever code can be added to another release first….
the linden interface went from really bad “3d game creation tool” to overly disjointed “windows app”.. but that visual cleanup did allow it to be taken “beyond” game and into “platform” look and feel….
but look and feel is surface after a point, that point being of course, its usage…. sl inventory is still a disaster after 5 years……
the www made it easy for dumb interfaces to be made every day… and sadly we have bent to the computer, rather than form systems within tech oriented companies that create computer tools that bend for us….ask Googles last Graphic Designer tasked at justifying the 41 blues:)
maybe all avatars need are pockets in their pants for a wallet /palm/pda/iphone. or cool ultiiity belts.
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » M Linden Gets Real: Metanomics Discussion and Second Life (tags: Jon Brouchoud Linden Lab mark kingdon metanomics "Paulette Robinson" "Robert Bloomfield" Young" "social and immersive media") [...]
This is an interesting discussion. The metaverse is really a kind of aether net, then, a dimensionless place where we all are joined at the speed of light.
But wait, as we use it in SL we fashion worlds in our own image – a 3D space with avatars in that space. Aye, that’s the rub: so few of us dare to use our minds for omnipresence. No problem, a synthetic 3D space can work, except we also bring with us our fears, our selfishness, our hate, our real world cultures and laws. We have eaten of the apple and our windows on the metaverse world are seeking technological and policy changes lest we evolve our way of being conscious.
As I was trying to follow some of the alternative maybes from LL or others, especially with the fear that some precious users might happen upon the metaverse manifestations of imagination that they cannot tolerate, I got the following idea. Instead of making the metaverse conform to the narrow mindedness of these users, let us fit their avatars with blinders, so as they roam the worlds they simply cannot “see” in-world content they don’t want. Let them gouge out their virtual eyes, lest they recognize their own intolerance and ignorance… (apologies to fans of King Lear)
But seriously, why hobble a metaverse because of intolerance.
[...] was remarkably brilliant, her’s was the winning entry in Dusan Writer’s User Interface Design contest, she was a vocal advocate for avatar rights, and she is loved by a great many people, most [...]
[...] started out as my comment to a post over on Dusan’s blog. He started with the metaphor and a touch of science of geography and how humans interpret/inhabit [...]
in a few years i think most will believe it wasnt the “visual metaphor” of a green grass island, that gave SL the mass hype boost that got vr worlds noticed by more than 3d graphics folks, but the “attachement of money” to the platform that drove the interest.
No one had problems “visualizing the the web” as a media once it brought the “pay now” button to the page….the same is true in either 2 or 3 dimensions…
“land-locallity” as a visual “grounding” wont maintain, the 3d media web will move beyond it, as long as the PAY ME buttons can thrive.
Like I have been in the past, I am continuing to be supportive to most of what LL is doing! Reading through all M’s thoughts makes me even more comfortable with their actions and strategies
I wonder if they are going to add accessibility for the visually disabled in the new UI.
Can you adjustments to it? It overlays some photos with the same architectural features, but which aren’t in the same location. Which common in SL since we often use copies of the recurring pieces, and they won’t weather differently like they would in RL.
About Orientation, that just sounds like they are going to move to completely community build and managed orientation. I can’t Imagine LL having the resources to develop a whole lot of different Orientations.
[...] she was a talented designer, avatar-rights activist and a thinker on immersion and identity, and generally a kind of person I [...]
[...] like Tracy Spaight (here), Raph Koster (here), Richard Bartle (here) and Doug Thompson (here) have already written extensively about trust, identity and magic circle regarding player death in [...]
DRM is a nice concept, but in fact it is hard to enforce. It is also not so easy to set your perms correctly as we have noticed on many occasions were we made a mess out of stuff only to see things that we spend massive time and effort go out on the grid to be free. The SL DRM system has not be improved er…since 2 years?
And this is not just a virtual goods issue–it is a digital goods issue including mp3s, dvds etc. I think people in general are too lax and feel if it can somehow be ripped/copy then they have some magical right to do it.
You also need to look at the overhead of complex DRM–generally they all have failed. Why? Because in the end they can all be cracked anyway and they generate huge customer support issues when the legit products don’t work.
The DRM issue is more about community as far as I am concerned. If a community rips stuff, then the content creators will ignore it. We feel that Linden Labs has not taken DRM seriously and does not action DCMA effectively. So, we stopped making stuff. Many other creators have stopped as well.
Why is LL more exposed than Twinity or Metaplace to DRM issues–well, its the economy stupid. Or really the false economy where people think they can make money by either creating interesting stuff or by ripping it. DRM is really about supporting people that make stuff and punishing people that rip it. LL does neither. Ironically many people that make stuff in SL actually pay Linden Lab for the privelege via land fees and fees from money. The rippers are usually free accounts.
My own feeling is that DRM is not such a big issue anyway. Price for inworld goods is too low and dropping toward zero. I think the service side of the inworld economy will see the growth. Linden probably already sees this in their view of the sales data, but they don’t share that freely.
RaR – Agreed…I’ve said this elsewhere, but in an economy without sinks, then content becomes commodity and trends towards zero – I mean, how many pairs of jeans can you have in inventory anyways? (Having said that, there’s still a big market for decent men’s clothes and hair but eventually that too will be filled). As a result, value is created at ever higher “levels” – first, it’s not about the clothes but about the store in which the clothes are found, then in the aggregation of stores (think hairspray maybe), then in the ability to manage brands.
Nike was a shoe company and became a marketing/distribution company and then became a company solely focused on being a brand. Beyond branding is collaboration, maybe, or letting customers create their own.
But I guess my point was that people aren’t always rational actors: you behave in a way where you may decide the rewards are worth it, when logically they might not be. Passion is a driving force, love, or the urge to create: the economy gives you this little boost because in today’s world, who wants to admit that you rez prims solely for the love of it – you can tell your friends and relatives that you SELL your stuff even if you’re making pennies an hour for your efforts.
So, regardless of whether the economy makes sense, um, economically it’s still important. And to protect the economy, the Lab needs to SAY that it’s a strategic priority to protect that economy, which means protecting content through:
- Enforcement
- Better methods of reporting (including, I’ll add, more rights for the ‘accused’, who don’t even get to know who their accuser is)
- Technology.
On the latter, I’m proposing that one of the LAST things we should do is change the perm system, at least in how perms are rezzed. The choice architecture is a “nudge” – and “nudges” are all the rage, these days – they’re a branch of economics which studies behaviour and which says that people don’t always make rational choices, but you can at least nudge them to think about things.
I’d much rather see the ability to verify perms and view nested perms within an object than change how the perms are rezzed. I don’t mind the hassle of having to change the prims when I rez them – what I hate is trying to find that one errant prim with a full perm script in it, or the prim with a no copy texture or whatever. I’d love to see the ability to select an object and view a nested hierarchy of the prims and perms so I can change it before releasing it instead of having to hunt/peck through each prim in a linked set.
Now, what I wonder, and maybe you can help me: if content is shifting towards zero value, as you say, and services is where it’s at – then how is Rezzable more like a services company than a content company? Just curious if you differentiate between services and experiences, or whether those are two sides of the same, um, coin.
Surely the most important principle of a DRM isn’t so much to prevent content theft, that’s almost impossible (as every code-kid delights in telling you) but instead to draw a line in the sand – you cross this and you’re out of here. Properly implemented it makes theft immediately visible and then you take whatever action is appropriate. A good DRM is always going to be a better disincentive to theft than a prevention.
Setting your own default perm’s for SL objects you create would be useful but I’d still prefer to see a set of perm’s introduced for the ‘user-after-next’ which I believe would trigger a second wave of creativity in SL. Admittedly, it adds yet another layer of complexity to SL but it could be worth it. There is a proposal languishing in the jira : http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2622
Otherwise, I couldn’t agree with you more, M/C/T made SL creative and compelling and LL tamper with (or ignore) that at their peril.
I don’t see why a “nudge” needs to be a pain in the butt to be effective. If the point is to remind us to check our permissions, then why not just show them in inventory instead of blind perms on our own objects? We wouldn’t need a nudge if we could see our perms at a glance.
Thank god they’re finally implementing bulk permissions changing at least. Packaging items for sale in SL is extremely cumbersome. For me, content creation is about 25% creative work, and 75% repetitive drudgework. Anything that can streamline that process and cut down on errors is very welcome to me.
Annyka –
I don’t disagree. My dream, and this came through in the UI contest I sponsored some time ago, was a far better system for making permissions and inventory tags “visible”.
Inventory is a mess – not only should it be more intuitive, but things like sorting on a perm basis, creator basis, etc. would all go a long way to improving the ability to package and sell content.
As someone who has struggled with the same issues, I relate: trying to package up a house, with all of the nested door scripts, textures, prims, notecards and whatever else has been one of those nightmares that had me screaming in frustration.
But I’d prefer that these things were dealt with on the visibility side rather than the creation side. Allowing people to flip their default perms removes a choice architecture which I think WORKS. Yes, it’s a nudge in the direction of friction, but that friction is what makes SL what it is: a conscious choice to switch from one model of content ownership to another, and to not then end up with an “out of sight out of mind” scenario where we’re not forced to remember that we made that choice.
Jacek had an interesting idea, however, which was session-specific perms. I suppose I’d go with that…at least I’d know that at log-in I’d be back to sharing the same content philosophy as everyone else on the Grid, as frustrating as that could be at times.
gee…sorry I missed this piece and related spew awhile back when all the venom was fresh. Sure seems like a lot to do about vested interests across all parties and very little about journalism. Meanwhile LL collects the monthly fees.
silly rabbits. trix are for kids…
The beauty of roleplay is in the quality of the WRITING. I hate voice generally in SL. Voice in RP is an abomination. Cartoon voices?
[...] packs” (whatever the hell that is), and the ability to record voice conversations. Go read Dusan’s post for that. I’m tired from all this typing. Perhaps I should have just recorded an mp3. [...]
I wrote zillions of chars, but deleted them. The most important would be a custom SL client for RPG-s. Not just the oh-so-dramatic ones, but the RPGs like ye old D&D was and/or is.
The oh-so-dramatic-ones are much less popular because those require people who like to act.
The game types like WoW base on the very nature of man: greed and curiosity.
For a story-driven rpg you need preparations, lotsa npcs and in a computer world…noone has the time for this. Thats why MUSHes werent half as popular as MUDs.
I think the mixture between two are the best, but SL is not the platform for that. And they are losing their audience just now. Without established communities (adult, rp) SL will be nothing more than a startup.
They have to take steps: release an alternate viewer for rpgs (estate-driven rules like no minimap, force windlight settings on clients, check client authenticity) maybe with a builtin turnbased combat system.
They also have to rethink about their server-maintenance, they shouldn’t operate abandoned sims, that would save a lot of $$ (turning them on per user tp request effectively), also cache needs to be reorganized.
AAAAND regions color-coded based upon build quality measured in Kilobytes!!!! Damn those eye-candy sims that pollutes your cache!! Have you realized how much trash you get when visiting a site like Insilico?
These ‘builders’ know nothing about nothing, gaaaaa…
And Dusan, did you know ARC is called shame in the SL source code? People should be reminded of this.
Also… why dont we get proper basic animations??? You know the ‘lag cost’ of a single AO? It’s terrible.
These are the issues…. and not SMS-ing OUT! Why would I want to SMS OUT OF SL when I’m sitting OUT of SL with a mobile next to my hand, with msn/skype/whatever open on my desktop…
Sometimes it feels like managers ran over Second Life. And the initiative folks.. like the ones at Google Labs are just opressed.
Gaa, sorry I can’t even type properly. I meant outside of SL.
Anyway: I am a big fan of the idea of pre-loading sims while teleporting there. Maybe you could read the rules while tp-ing or be tp-d into an empty sim where other passer-bys are too waiting for their tp.
And you could config your client to pre-cache favorite sims. Of course, supposing there is an even very basic version control system that notifies your client ‘X sim has been updated to v 1.132′ initiating a pull-like update.
Hi there. My experience with the Xbox Live platform is that people try voice morphing once and then never touch it again – even the kids. So there is no need to be afraid of it, Dusan ^_^
I think it’s interesting you switch from SL Voice to Skype sometimes for better sound quality. Ever since I did a radio interview with Tom Boellstorff and found voice quality much better than on Skype, I thought I’d stick with SL voice for future interviews. Maybe I was just lucky that one time. And Skype for sure is getting better with every update.
I can’t imagine using the voice fonts. It’s too far-fetched.
I don’t like voice, it’s an immersion killer, and an augmentation hobbler, too many dials to work.
Great news to hear they will have taping of voice inworld, but what would really be great is if that were billed on demand, and that you didn’t have to sign up for a service you wouldn’t use just to have a meeting once a week.
Cripes, SL voice is an inferior product. This sounds like more of the same.
Permissions and Choices…
I’ve counted Dusan Writer as a friend (or at least a friendly acquaintance) ever since I met him in the course of his UI design contest a year ago. He’s an interesting personality, and generally an intelligent fellow and a thoughtful writer…
что? по моему, отличная идея. ну, как хотите, в общем то
I’m glad you’re taking this stand, Dusan, it’s really important.
C/M/T is the heart of SL, and frankly, the Lindens put it in almost inspite of themselves, and very much against the will of some copyleftist Lindens.
It’s very much under assault now, not only with VWR 8059 but with the assault by Soft Linden as well on the “share bug” which he insists is “expected behaviour” — it’s a casual and even hostile attitude to the problem of the unwanted return and destruction of private property in SL, and that’s worrisome (he’s willing to suddenly declare return of *group owned* property by the same bug as a bug — indication of how suspect his entire claim is).
There is a concerted effort to decouple the binding of copyright to SL creations under the false flag of “builder’s convenience”.
The same gang trying to ram through Creative Commons crap and “liberate” everything under the fake premise that this “helps you get custom sales” are trying to drive out c/m/t and its adherence to objects in SL. It’s got to be called out for what it is.
Jacek Antonelli on his blog makes it seem like these are all exaggerated and FUD-ridden notions, that Dusan is picking up my critique of CC and becoming FUD’d himself, etc. etc. But I think any intelligent person who examines the CC shill closely can come away realizing: this system browbeats me into sharing everything “for the sake of the community” but doesn’t have a viable way for me to protect my copyright REALLY by having a way to get paid for my objects reliably.
SL, unlike the wider Internet at large, does that! And God bless it.
What I bet the Lindens are cooking up now is merely some “call your lawyer” or “file a DMCA” streamlined process, perhaps even automating it in the tools. They may make the automation of CC licensing or DCMA notification even in lieu of c/m/t. They imagine they would be doing people some sort of favour with this, but it’s utterly fake — the real way to protect copyright is not to tamper with c/m/t, not to browbeat people with CC, and not throw up your hands at the fact that integrity of c/m/t isn’t 100 percent. It’s their all-or-nothing argument that is used to undo even such protection that does in fact adhere, and that’s wrong.
Affluent middle-aged white men in Silicon Valley, larded up with gadgets and widgets and digital equipment out the wazoo, with A-list blogs or access to A-list blogs, were the first to start this meme that you “have” to have copyable songs and other digital content because otherwise you can’t copy it on to your many other electronic toys, and therefore DRM was “broken” or “wrong” or “can’t work”. They had more of an influence on manufacturers even than kids downloading on the Internet because they basically had the power of the purse to threaten the consumer electronics field significantly.
We don’t have to be bound by their indulgent whining, however, which was key to destroying the music industry. Not in SL, where you get something that is copyable to any other purpose you need with nothing that needs to be “jailbroken”, but you still can’t *transfer* it — if transfer is turned off — unless, of course, you go through some elaborate deliberate hack. but you aren’t motivated to hack, given that you can copy endlessly; you just can’t resell it. Brilliant.
DRM is not at all hard to enforce — not in SL, not with CMT. That’s it’s beauty. RightasRain is merely reiterating the tekkie meme that claims this is hard to enforce based on the model of the music industry (which in fact…enforces it, despite what all the annoyed and arrogant tekkies say about it).
The idea of the “nudge” is what it’s all about. And I would submit that the “nudge” that comes in the default isn’t as much of a shove as the 8049 concept is.
The nudge that the default gives us in fact defaults to what most people want: not to have their stuff copyable, unless they decide, on that particular creation, that yes, it can be copyable.
It defaults to the inherent property of everything as already copyrighted and protected — it’s a metaphor that plays out from RL to SL.
It treats each creation as unique, uncopyable — until you decide to make it so.
Meanwhile, the CC and opensource nudge of liberation of perms is a shove, not a nudge. Oh, sure, you can make the *first* choice to change to a new, customized default. But then ever after, your each unique creation defaults as copyable. You can’t really then go back on it due to peer pressure, especially in a group — and then you’d have to change a custom default, not just toggle one box.
It’s a very effective psychological brainwashing, because it holds out to everyone the prospect that if they do NOT vote for this “choice” they are “hampering builders,” even though most builders haven’t asked for it or even want it, but the reality is that what these opensourceniks want to use it for is to liberate perms and force people to go to a liberated perm regime permanently. That is stated clearly in the first sentence of the proposed feature. That’s why Lindens banning me for repeatedly pointing up the political agenda of the opensource activists here is ridiculous, because they themselves front their political goals in your face. When catherine Pfeffer describes the servers of SL as “egotistical” because they default as your own prims, without copy (i.e. the “egotistical server” makes YOU egotistical by default), she means not to nudge, but to agitate you into admitting that you are selfish unless you liberate your creations “for the community”.
This is Bolshevik collectivization, and we need to push back hard against it. It’s no less destructive just because it’s digital and online; everything is online and will become more online, and it will have a devastating impact.
[...] my posts have become way to long, or I’ve become more obscure, but for whatever reason my recent post on the permission system in Second Life didn’t get the response I was anticipating until today, when Jacek posted a [...]
No, Jacke’s reference is to me. He thinks you’ve been taken in by my critique of Creative Commons and my critique of this IP-shattering feature request which is a stealth bomb for the copyleftist opensource gang to decouple perms and objects. His references are solely to me, he’s just being coy and pretending to avoid drama.
I think you’ve put your finger on it. There are no intellectuals anymore at the lab. Philip isn’t exactly an intellectual in the sort of classic sense like a Susan Sontag, but he did think about a broad swathe of issues and did have a vision. Robin was another one who thought through all the aspects of the world and had some intellectual framework for it. So did Cory, one of the few PhDs in the lab. There are a few others.
But you feel like the age of those greater thinkers who pondered the making of worlds, and summoned people I *don’t* like, like Lessig or Doctorow or Dibbell, to give them tips, but at least they had an idea that there are “schools of thought” and they need to consult “the scholars”.
Now, it’s more like they are just trying to hack and slash through it and get it working. The Golden Age of Heroes gives way to the Iron Age of replication or something.
I don’t think that M Linden sits around the way we do and contemplates the affect of opensource hackery on an integral world where objects contain the CMT “friction” as you call it, as a property to keep their uniqueness. That is, when I IM’d him in urgent alarm about this JIRA with the mass liberation in it, he said, “I’ll look into it,” but it was a sort of pro forma answer. I’m 100 percent sure he doesn’t grasp what bothers me about it, or you, nor does he think about it. If he thinks about it at all, he thinks, but look at the convenience for creations, and that fits an age-old mantra at the lab — the killer app for David Linden — remember him? the VP? — was content, content, content. Other people making the content so you don’t have to. Like Other People’s Money. That stil resonates greatly with the Lindens.
So the problems of property rights are less interesting. I think I nailed it when I really went for the jugular on this, and said on Metanomics, in reply to his answer that no, LL is not going to release the server code.
“So, Mark. IP protection for you. And not for us. Is that’s how it’s going to be?”
And that about sums it up, eh? IP protection for him — he’s not going to be releasing the server code and will still make money from the magic of SL, even if OpenSim reverse engineers (yes, *reverse engineers* SL).
But what about us chickens? Well, for us, there will be…some toy…automization of DMC notices or…a place to stick a Creative Commons license on the viewer (I already see how they have made one in 1.23.2 — it sickens me.)
As I keep saying, the Lindens created c/m/t inspite of themselves, even in defiance of their own copyleftist ideologies, merely because for a time they were entranced with the idea, inspired by Lessig, of sticking it to the man, i.e. having “the little guy” have IP that he cuold protect against a company, against game gods, against corporate software makers, which is what the Lindens are. They were so entranced with the man-bites-dog effect of having game players have IP against game gods, unlike WoW or anything else, that they didn’t think it through. Lessig tired of it immediately. What’s interesting about a zillion dressmakers? As someone snarkily put it on my blog, threat to IP, copybot — meh, who cares, little dress-maker genocide…
And yet, little dressmakers — well, they’re the heart of the world.
Hello, I want to say hi everyone.
test
When voice came into SL and I could suddenly realte it to the idea I cognitively had of my friends, I was fascinated. Because actually, their voices sounded exactly as i thought it would. At start, it was like a gadget for most of us and many went back to typing as if nothing happened. I think a lot of people like this “hidden-shown possibility”. But the new “generation” who came after voice was possible into SL, are much less inhibited. I am not sure this is the correct word, but I am sure the feeling some expressed about voice features, has to do with “showing” a real part of you into virtuality. Like if the intrusion of voice into virtuality was putting them uncomfortable, like kind of breaking the dream. I have noticed a lot of people voice when they are shopping with friends in my shops. A lot of them ask me if I can voice when they have specific questions about work, or a technical point. And some people are just unatease with typing all they want to express. And what about the conferences we attend into SL, that would be impossible withouth voice. I think it is just fantastic to have the choice. And those functionnalities which are coming, like to be able to receive a phone call inworld, make it even better. It is just part of the flow… And for my part, I trust each of us can make this flow something that fits its own conception of second life.
Linden is dealing with two business models in Second Life — two mutually incompatible business models.
One business model is creating a thriving virtual world with a robust and functioning internal economy and protections for citizens and creators.
The other business model is creating a stand-alone platform which businesses, educational institutions, and other groups can create their own virtual worlds.
What’s good for the Second Life virtual world is not necessarily the same as what’s good for the Second Life enterprise server.
By keeping a leg in each camp, Linden is sabotaging each business model. At some point, it may make sense to split this up into separate companies.
For example, hypergrid connectivity is a must for enterprise users — they need to be able to connect to other enterprise grids out there.
But hypergrid connectivity is dangerous for content developers in Second Life unless the permissions systems made much more robust and secure.
Pseudonyms are fine in a game-playing environment like the Second Life virtual world.
But they’re an obstacle in business and educational settings.
Or take the Linden Dollars – critical to the Second Life economy. But what would a company need these for, on an internal enterprise grid used for training and meetings? Or a college, on its classroom and laboratory grids? If they do sell products from their virtual worlds, they’re more likely to want to take credit cards, or PayPal payments, rather than Lindens.
Meanwhile, the field of potential competitors is growing — both on the platform side, with both proprietary enterprise systems and open source server platforms like OpenSim and realXtend — and on the virtual world site, as the costs of creating a new universe for users to play in is dropping daily.
Sure, Second Life has a large mass of users. But users are fickle. Give them a new platform that’s slightly better or slightly cheaper and off they go. In particular, people follow the content creators — the designers, the game operators, the nightclub owners.
By splitting their focus, Linden risks losing their content makers and their enterprise customers both.
You’ve been duped. But not by Prok. Frankly i find her the most transparent of the whole SL related hanger ons;)-transparency as good;)
And check again. your list of vr worlds “greats” never implemented or proposed user “economy” and “value” commerce in 3d worlds before 2006ish ….none of them.
They followed in years later the “apparent success” of Linden’s final solution to not going bankrupt in 2003 (user gen and IP ownership marketing as draw), They all made games or social 3d virtual worlds that never allowed or sold anything to or from anyone but them as a single company. None of them are elected officials who are tasked to run complex community systems. They make “toys” or evangelize “books” about toys.and most run organizations of under 20 people.
Where is the reality?
SL is the mess it is because LL never made a hard choice to what they sold. a TOY or a Platform for Business. Frankly they look at all of us as “personal entertainment usage” and they ONLY as the Business…. ” and this has been obvious from day one 2001.
Anyhow. You can play as long as you like, I do. I wont pay them to lose money, or suggest any client do the same. If there’s a USE for the Lab, and SL. Use it.
BTW- Microsoft bought and has now killed off caligari truespace ( birthed 1995is), which “was” also another 3d MU tool/platform that allowed for collaborative inworld building- it had been through vrml ages, and evolved into that state in about 2003 or so, the same time SL did by allowing prims in world. It had its issues on needed higher end machines, but without an internal “perms” like system that “nudged” for commmerce. not freebies, Truespce in the end made alot of money for only one group- caligari- and the dreams of its creator, a 3dweb of millions using it as a platform foundation, never happened–again.
food for thought for those feeling duped.;)
[...] Dusan Writer: Paths of Least Resistance, or Why C/M/T Should Remain a Pain [...]
“As I keep saying, the Lindens created c/m/t inspite of themselves, even in defiance of their own copyleftist ideologies, merely because for a time they were entranced with the idea, inspired by Lessig, of sticking it to the man, i.e. having “the little guy” have IP that he cuold protect against a company, against game gods, against corporate software makers, which is what the Lindens are. They were so entranced with the man-bites-dog effect of having game players have IP against game gods, unlike WoW or anything else, that they didn’t think it through. Lessig tired of it immediately. What’s interesting about a zillion dressmakers? As someone snarkily put it on my blog, threat to IP, copybot — meh, who cares, little dress-maker genocide…”
i don’t believe this is correct. I can remember quite clearly the SFWEB3D meeting where the question being asked by Corey and Robin was “HOW DO WE GET PEOPLE TO USE THIS STUFF?”
The repeated answer, over and over again, then and every time I saw Corey sadly sitting by himself with no takers at a Macworld/or Media show, was “IP OWNERSHIP ans ITEM SALES” – Why would I spend time building YOUR PRODUCT/Services for FREE? Forget Lessig, that SFWEB3D room was filled with Students!!- a class at SFSU.
That simple.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10248520-37.html?tag=newsLatestHeadlinesArea.0
apple store pulls virtual watches//
more ip news.. think sl willbe getting more of these soon, and after playing with metaplace, i cant see how they are immune either.
any picture, grabbed from the web, gets repackaged and resold in 2d as an application??… somethings gotta give….
Cube:
Good history lesson, thanks for that. It wasn’t how I read the history of it (via Hamlet and elsewhere)….but then historical accounts often leave out the important stuff (or I read them selectively).
I refer to the people I do because of their belief that virtual worlds are complex systems, not because they’re experts in user-generated economies. I use that as my starting point and then move into the second questions, which is within that complex system how does an economy such as SL continue to thrive, or, for that matter: does it.
There is definitely a sense in the air that the Lab is juggling two competing views: one in which content creation is a by-product or service to enterprise, and the second where they hope to see mass adoption through some not-yet-named but-hoped-for killer app – music? Dancing? Whatever it is, they don’t typically say “user generated economy and content” as THE killer app, which is troublesome.
All of which is to say that if the Lab is sliding into SL being an enterprise platform on the one fire-walled hand, and an entertainment/music/dancing platform on the other, then all the more reason to try to pay attention to ANY change that might impact the mechanics of perms while we wait for them to tell us whether they matter, how, and what the road map is to improving them, protecting them, and making them easier to use.
yes. i agree. they MUST outline a road map IF they attempt to be a “government”.. like any candidate who am “investing” for -what will they do?
killer apps and 3dweb are 1995 all over again…Linden is looking very CA.-)
almost all these vr worlds are toys…when run by children they try to have it both ways… my toy and ill take it home with me. “transparent” is an illusion they hide in CC and singular (arity) speak:)
we need a media and platforms to build an industry.. not these vanity experiments that even i am forced to do ever few years.
youre asking the right questions…. i only wish they were asked and listened to 3 years ago…3 years ago you didnt see much of these questions blogged, all you saw was “evangelical exuberance” and whore to millionaire rhetoric..
anyhow
here’s another experiment: tonight at 10 pst. web based vr movie screening ,,,its buggy but thats the techworld:)
http://horrorhostnews.blogspot.com/2009/05/cinema-insomnia-screaming-room.html
not sure it;ll work, but not asking for 1000 dollars and 295 a month to try it:)
btw– tribalnet is dead;;no moany made or gotten via bankers..:)…my open sim there gone..
i did reach out to folks like maria and “reactiongrid” as well…started up a test there…
i would love to see Opensims grow to apache type ubiquity…. but people made money on html servers in 1996.:0— and the web 1996 was a “presentation” media for the mass,,,, time will tell, again..
There is a lot of confusion here, and unfortunately on the jira. The confusion is between politics and engineering. A propper working granular permissions system enables people to do their work how they wish.
If folk wish to use it to express copyleft principles, or to make life difficult for pirates (and usually themselves in the process) then that’s up to them. Politics has nothing to do with the engineering UNLESS the system is engineered to restrict the choices you have in how those permissions are applied. The current system does this – it makes decisions on your behalf as I will explain.
If people want to use permissions simply then by all means provide a simple interface for them. That interface likely looks a lot like C/M/T by the way. That is not however the full story as C/M/T can not encompass all the possible behaviors of a permissions system. If you enable debug permissions (an advanced option in the sl client) you will see LOTS of extra info about the permissions of your objects – this extra info shows the decisions about how permissions look different to folk other than yourself or how permissions will change if the object changes hands. These changes to permissions happen automatically.
Put another way, this is the hidden information about decisions the permissions system makes on your behalf. Intentions – which by their nature somewhat political – are encapsulated in these rules. These intentions are the ones that decide on our part and in our absence that we shouldn’t be able to modify the objects we create, for example.
They are the reason that I can’t sell an item in SL to a client without giving them full perms if i may wish to provide any customer support modifying/customizing/fixing the item. The SL permissions system is particularly idiosyncratic in that way and locks up and breaks content more often than not.
A proper granular permissions system is not political in that way. It needn’t be difficult to use either – just as windows networking has simplified model and full control permissions systems, one can provide a simple and complex interface to the same system.
You will find that engineers such as Jjacek, Tateru Nino, Ordinal Malaprop, etc who actually work with these systems daily usually argue for a “propper” permissions system, and do not mix metaphors between permissions and drm. Folk who’s primary thing is IP rather than coding however often mix up permissions, drm and IP politics. The FUD (fear uncertainty and doubt) JJacek mentions in her blog post is exactly this, a domain confusion built out of a simplistic and flawed view of how a tool works and it’s implications for IP.
As for myself, I am very anti piracy. I refuse to use photoshop for work for example, though it inconveniences me greatly, as I don’t own a copy. It is estimated that over 80% of photoshop installs are pirated and nobody else seems to think twice about it. This has not stopped me using the tools of piracy to unlock my own content when it has been borked by the idiosyncrasies of the SL permissions system. No digital content protection system is bulletproof, and I’m quite happy to break them when they lock me out of my own content that I created or paid for.
Now here is the issue. If i make an object in SL, and due to idiosyncracies in the permissions system it locks it so that I am unable to transfer/edit/copy it – this is 100% my own creation here – I have no choice but to use one of the many methods available to break those permissions. In doing so I am circumventing DRM which makes it a criminal act. Off the top of my head I can think of at least 7 ways of committing this criminal act, so clearly DRM is failing to do it’s job of protecting the content. The only way in which it succeeds is by turning me into a criminal for editing an object I created in the first place.
If the permissions system was more granular I’d be able to set things up so I didn’t have nasty surprises like this. So the simplified permissions system we have is already political as it makes decisions behind our back about what is right and wrong, and by making it more granular we would be making it _less_ political.
There are no mysteries about what makes a granular permissions system – they have been around since the 1960s. It’s not rocket science – there’s one in the computer you’re using right now. Jjacek, myself and others have been arguing for a long time that the permissions system needs an overhaul to reveal the hidden data that I spoke of earlier and remove the ways in which it makes decisions on our own behalf. This is so that the technicolor rainbow of approaches to content management can be encompassed rather than the stupid mix of copyleft meets IP paranoia that we have now. I leave you with a final example.
Right now I’m making an orientation path, with some 40 or so signs that i spit out of keynote whenever revisions go through, and upload in bulk, and each time I do…… I have to manually go through every single texture uploaded and set permissions to allow the textures to be reused…. why? Because SL assumes that I don’t want anyone else to be able to edit these items ever and that selfishly I wish to ensure that those textures are useless to anyone else. Now I may think that’s braindead having spent countless hours working on teams setting these stupid permissions every time or chasing folk who’ve set them badly, or using tools to re-rip the textures cause someone has screwed up their perms and we need to edit a build or wotnot….. but who am I to criticise? Surely in _some_ universe this is the most sensible way to deal with permissions on textures……. it just sure as hell isn’t in mine, nor is it in the universe of anyone I know. As for scripts, which are more likely to need modification after the fact, it’s even worse.
So in conclusion.. sure the lindens are silly and do strange things and need to strategise and communicate better, but that’s got nought to do with how borked the permissions system is. The perms system just needs to be normal and act normal like a perms system should, rather than as a third party lurking over our shoulder, which we need to placate in order to get anything done.
better interface for permissions needed for group projects. -true
the insistance that “technical” solutions are free from politics and economics – false
the dogmatic belief that the media does not influence the message– just damn stupid.
i read jjacek posting stuff… it was i believe wrong about IP/licenses/TOS and ownership.
dogma strikes again.
“Politics has nothing to do with the engineering UNLESS the system is engineered to restrict the choices you have in how those permissions are applied.”
obviosly you havnet used a “modern” paper ballot to vote in the last 20 years.
youre subcribing to the idea that MORE is always BETTER.?
who are you people? really?.. i mean lets stop this avatar shit… it really is just allowing more stupidity to spread. But more is better, itll just magically transform us into a borg collective.
im getting too old for this .
Pavig:
Thanks for the response, although in some ways I think you made my point FOR me. What you point out is that there are things in the system of perms that go beyond usability: the current system has embedded in it a form of paternalism or, as you say, acts as “a third party lurking over our shoulder”.
Yes, they do, and that’s my point. What is being proposed is a change in this paternalism. I am not SAYING the perms system is usable. I am not SAYING it’s not incredibly frustrating. I am not even necessarily saying that this paternalism is the desired state of the world.
Look. I build. I make my own textures. I sculpt. I work with others, and with groups, and I forget to wear my tag, or share with group, or set my perms right and it drives me out of my mind. I UNDERSTAND how borked it is. I’ve listed in this blog and elsewhere things I’d like to see changed, but only within the context of a broader statement of purpose, a road map, and an articulation of strategy and philosophy.
A change in the philosophy….from paternalism (sloppily executed) to choice, say, is still a change in philosophy, and I’m proposing that we need to be clear that it IS a change and not be confused with the idea that the result of usability and choice is simply improved usability – even subtle changes can have wider impacts, as Boellstorff and all the economists would agree – a butterfly in Brazil kind of thing.
I suppose the argument I’m hearing is “screw the Lab, we’re going to make the platform better with or without them”, which is what OpenSim is trying to do…and maybe in the end that’s what the world needs – one that’s truly built by the imagination of its users (just wait, oh wait, until they open source the server code, what fun THAT will be)….but I’m of the opinion that those leading the charge should include those who will look beyond interface design into policy, sociality, culture, economics, and law, with code and design being supporting infrastructure for a reasoned view of these factors.
For now it’s the Lab who’s in the lead, whether we like it or not. On OpenSim it’s the coders. Maybe tomorrow it will be the dress makers. Who knows.
*”Technical” people are rarely political beasts. Conversely, they are not the people who decide what the software they create should do – that is between the customer and the suits of the business.
*This is a single, small choice being made available to the small percentage of people who build, and who want to use the new feature. It does not change, extend, or otherwise alter the permissions system, it just makes it easier to use.
Feldspar – I highly doubt the world will end with this change. But it seems to me that there’s no better time, on the cusp of a major UI overhaul, with the addition of all these voice features, with a “Web 2.0″ thing on the way – to revisit our core values, for whatever excuse, whether a JIRA and a “minor change” or because of stuff that’s more profound.
How the Lab responds to the JIRA says a lot to me about whether perms are a micro issue or whether the coders check in with the “suits” by way of verifying whether the governing philosophy allows changes to the usability with due consideration for a broader, clearly articulated approach to something so central to the Grid.
Will it change DRM, or perms, or is it ONLY usability for a minority of users? Again, I’d propose that the anthropologists, economists, sociologists and “world builders” would say that there’s a strong possibility otherwise, or at the very least would say “let’s map this out in a thoughtful, measured way.”
(BTW, where do you get those stats from?)
I’m not goingbto fight anyone on the idea that code can inform use and or politics. I’m a firm believer that it is so. However I am also a long term SL user who has seen every miniscule overhaul of usability in the client crippled under the weight of argument about what it means. There is a place for political and philosophical challenge in the interpretation of code, but sooner or later it needs to be written or we get nowhere.
There is no danger to ‘paternalism’ from implementing minor usability tweaks. If we can’t accept even this without being buried under the weight of analysis we can’t hope to agree on the nature of the long overdue major perms overhaul.
[...] Second Life to Add Voice Morphing Controls, Voice Mail and Avatar Phone Numbers That voice morphing function is going to cause more problems than it solves. [...]
[...] debate. I subsequently discovered that she was also celebrated for her coding skills, producing an award-winning alternative SL viewer, and she seems to have been well thought of by those who had regular contact with her on the [...]
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » iAlja Writer Moodles Around [...]
All the stuff I make is set as Copy/NoMod/NoTrans. This is not copyleftist, but just the way i do it. I like my customers to have the option to rez out more than one, and not worry about auto-return of no-copy stuff. Its a right royal pain in the arse, because this is not the default option.
It is not like Linden Lab is removing the permissions system…is it? So why does an extra option, become so political? I think this speaks volumes about the politics of the detractors, rather than the politics of the people who suggested the feature. Do the detractors believe we will all be avatars in the future, and that we need ‘avatar rights’ as we do in the real world? I suppose, if we loose the ability to be normal, walking, breathing humanoids, and are forced to dwell in VR (a la the matrix), then this is hideously political, but until that horrid day comes..these are merely settings and options in a piece of software. SL has still not got a ‘Save As’ option for saving ones own creations..Jeeze, silly software. Thank you OpenSimulator, where I can backup my creations to an oar file.
Actually, the missing ‘Save As’ option in SL, does seperate SL form virtually every other piece of creative software. So maybe I did miss the point…SL is not ordinary software. Or at least in the old-fashioned sense, where a person creates, saves out, and does what they choose with the files created.
[...] Opensim “emerging markets” and income they may generate. There’s even a case, as Dusan Writer points out, for the Xstreet acquisition to re-open the doors to LL’s [...]
I sort of agree with Philip’s assessment there, as it fits with a theory of mine as to why taking on the phone while driving is so much more distracting than talking to a passenger: our brains are hard-wired to talk to visual images of people. If there is not a person physically (or “avatarly”?) present, then a portion of our brains’ processing will be used to generate the image of one, at the cost of reaction time.
Thoria – I entirely agree that spatialized voice and avatar presence is one of THE major reasons SL has an advantage over all other forms of rich communication between people.
Phone is fine – but usually for very small groups, or one-on-one. Web conferences are fine, but usually for broadcasting, not collaboration or multi-person discussion.
Where SL shines is when you have a need for a platform where the participants need to truly listen and engage, where you are not merely ‘broadcasting’, or where you want the participants to connect with each other in deeper ways (teams, etc.)
However – Philip has a way of, well…saying things that I just find kinda visiony goofy.
First off, I see the fun in keeping track of what you are calling “Philipisms” since it does give some insights in his “visiony” process.
Thoria brought up what I, too was thinking – the fact that a cell phone conversation distracts from the here-and-now of driving means it is taking us somewhere else – where is that?
Philip’s asking ‘why do we look at the phone’ really begs the question, what do we need to see to better enhance our ability to communicate and collaborate?
I was looking at a list of elements of nonverbal communication and was categorizing what I think only work face-to-face, what work in VW, on webcast, on phone, and by email. Then I also was trying to factor in the statement I heard recently by a VW vendor that said there are somethings that VW can do much better than a RL meeting. I then was remembering the observation I had at a VW conference that it seemed while people I met seemed intelligent, there was a disproportionate number of them that had poor skills at face-to-face or other RL social interaction – leading to a theory that these people are drawn to SL because they can communicate *better* there.
Thus, while pondering Philipism #7, I found myself imagining a VW that was so good at communication, that when interacting with my teams at work, for example, it could be preferable and more productive to meet with them in a next-generation virtual world than face-to-face. This would come by accentuating all the elements of communication, intelligent computer assistants, information access, visualization; while eliminating all the negative/non-productive aspects of having to communicate in person.
Of course, I still can’t answer why our species insists on doing this communication with machines and not with telepathy
I never heard that story about the eye contact issue before, that’s priceless.
It reminds me of the time I got to meet Boris Yeltsin, whose books I translated — but this was before I did the translations and before he became president, when he was speaker of parliament in what was then the Russian White House. It turns out that Yeltsin is one of those charismatic types with animal magnetism, if you will. But his means of achieving this is simple: he simply stares down each and every person in a meeting until they look away. You know those kind of contests you might have had with your little brother when you were little, staring and staring and daring the other person to look away first.
When Boris Nikolayevich’s eyes fell on mine, I held my ground. I had noticed others darting away. I figured there was no reason why I couldn’t win this one, even as a lowly translator. I stared and stared, and didn’t swerve from the future president of Russia. Finally, *he* looked away, and locked eyes with former political prisoner Yuri Orlov. He lost that one, too. It was actually an interesting and cordial meeting.
I know what Philip is talking about, I have to have these awful phone conference calls all the time, and I always picture my colleagues all huddled together in another city around the speaker phone in a drab conference room. Some of them I’ve never met, so I sort of sketch in how they might look from the sound of their voice. But really, that’s only part of the time. Because most of the time, I’m higher up in my head thinking about their ideas, and noting the colour of their voice, and storing any necessary facts away about who they are, what they’re saying. I’m looking up there at this kind of stream, or colouds, if you will, with a kind of burning colour, the colour of synesthesia which is hard to describe because it is back-lit in ways that outworld colours aren’t.
Now, here’s the problem with Second Life and voice. Those avatars are just these things sort of dangling in the way of seeing the stream which renders then notes and colours of those people’s voices and their ideas, which are clouds, also colour coded. So to have those damn avatars there, it’s just damn confusing.
Yes, you can zoom around and see/hear where the voice is coming from, but it’s such a disconnect that I find it an annoyance.
For example, going to the Lindens’ voiced press conference (won’t be doing any more of that now!), I would hear, say Jack Linden, who has a distinctive British voice which people in England might even be able to place as a product of a certain school or regional dialect. So there’s Jack yacking away, and his visuals around his voice are what they always are (they even had him on the answering machine at the Lab for a time). But then, there’s that *other* Jack which is his avatar, and his typing, which is a *whole other set of data*. That Jack is even different — different than that voiced Jack. In fact, if you get a Linden like, say, Blue, who has a dragon or something well, you’re just really dealing with a huge disconnect.
I don’t like voice.
Philip is right about the eye contact thing. It enables you to get up into your right brain more easily, it’s a short climb that wouldn’t be as easy in a RL setting with like, the Xerox machine humming and coffee mugs clattering and such, too. But, the voice add-on — well, I keep waiting to “break it in” and “get used to it” and I never do.
[...] showing tiny humans trapped inside phone added as a lacy kerchief wave to Dusan’s post titled Philipisms #7 – Get Those Tiny Humans Out of Your Head) Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Open Source Unified CommunicationsWorking [...]
Extraordinary anecdote, Prokofy.
I have to think that using VW for communication/collaboration, I would still want to meet face-to-face early on in the process, so all the myriad exchanges across the human spectra can at least be booted. (Even if it involves staring contests). I find teleconferences easier when I know the office or conference room they are using and what they look like in it. If I know what the other people and their setting look like, that is what is formed in my mind. If I don’t, something still gets created, but it is not so tangible.
In some senses, I think using avatars is a little like playing with dolls. Not to say they are childish in a condescending way, because I think whatever we program out of ourselves as we mature that disables our ability to create and inhabit the magic circle with our toys is exactly what we need to be able to find those places that Provoky describes as “higher up in my head”… when I ended my previous comment with the smartass question about why we use machines instead of developing our innate talents for telepathy, or shamanism, or other more natural means to focus our minds from the here-and-now to some other focal point of place/time is really my reaching for the same kind thing to me.
But where can I find the boards? I want to makeover my avatar to look like one of those:)
HAHA good idea!
Hmm, this is interesting. Are these “shared resources” going to be open for the public? Or outside of the EU?
good piece
hey sherrymerry i owe u a beer!!! thx a ton! thx Dusan aswell!!
Wow, so many questions and thoughts come to mind. First I think, there’s no way someone can receive the same 1st person hands on real life experience education in SL. Then, my second thought is: how much of my time in SL could I count as college credit. And, where do i sign up to get my diploma.
(i probably shouldn’t start sentences with ‘and’ and end questions with periods.)
Anyhoo, “graduating from college” yeah, some people like paying an institution tons of money in order to get a degree and a notch on the resume…. other people love the experience of college.
…i’m just wondering if you can truly ever graduate from a university if you’ve never spent 4 years with your real life self on their campus
Read my comment here:
http://www.mixedrealities.com/?p=1537#disqus_thread
Not sure I will be able to get to this, but in a nutshell, I think methodology that involves studying a company making social software without ever interviewing those impacted by it, who also shaped both the software and the company, strikes me as simply illegitimate. I find the concept of the “corporate ethnography” itself illegitimate; and for *this* enterprise even more so. I think you must bear down on this problem as part of the discussion of what is acceptable as academic study in and about virtual worlds, as you did in the previous debate with Beyers, etc.
Whatever the value of studying only the company, it’s a company decidedly not functioning in a vacuum.
Cory Linden said at one point that *one third* of the employees were made up of former residents, and not just people who had skipped in and out of SL as a sample, residents who were heavily engrossed and invested, many with big businesses and reputations.
The Lab went through a period then when they put in a lot of residents as staff — then dropped a lot of them. Today, it’s likely a much smaller percentage. But the reality is that the world and the resident community are an enormously important factor.
I have some other thoughts on the methodology and themes of his book – which is notably historic rather than a “current” view – but I’ll save those for later.
In the meantime, another quote:
“In my time around Linden Lab I felt it was always a hair’s breadth away from flying apart at the seams, and it still may. This is a vital point to keep in mind as we gauge the prospects for ludic bureaucrocies.”
[...] to Dusan Writer’s Metaverse the FBI is now using Second Life to post pictures of its 10 most wanted, to connect to the [...]
Yes, I can’t wait to read the book, and I’ll come back after I read it. I don’t think Thomas’ answers today at Metanomics were adequate on my question.
nothing new.
just the virtual showing the reality of a culture/machine that should never be permitted to do anything but turn screws.
we have robot people runnning broken/half thought out machines, and now we gleefully ask to be robots in the system based on those half truths and the fear that we wont be part of the cool kids as defined by 50 years of advertising dogma.
BTW, the bit about the creatives — Lindens espouse creator-fascism when they don’t espouse technocommunism, they amount to the same thing. Consumers are sort of a necessary but expendable plug-in to their software development.
I can’t help feeling that everything we’re seeing so far from this book was visible in the forums debates in 2004-2005 before the forums were shut down.
[...] 6, 2009 by piensl Dusanwriter nos trae la buena noticia de que Julie Shannon tiene el honor de ser la primera persona graduada de [...]
It’s interesting to see that this list does not contain “hundreds” which is often what people claim, and it also doesn’t contain “every” university which is what the Lindens claim.
Woodbury Unviversity does not belong in that list. It has no educational activities in SL, but is a griefing project; in this case it’s not even just students griefing, but the professors are in on it too — it’s an elaborate prank.
“Presence” doesn’t mean “programs”, either. Some schools seem merely to have put up a build, held a few meetings, and like the business sims of lore, abandoned them.
Wait—the blog post containing that list of universities is dated July 25, 2007. Surely it has changed in almost two years?
That’s a very poor list. All three universities in Liverpool UK have a presence in SL and none of them is listed. Likewise 90% of UK universities have a presenve according to recent surveys funded by Eduserv. Should we try to do this “properly”?
Wow, the University of Texas at Austin is not on the list and we have had a sim with courses since Fall 2006. Maybe we should self promote a little more…Another thing to consider is that instructors like myself choose not to use their university SL land to teach. I have been teaching on a 1/2 sim at the Educators Coop (http://educatorscoop.org) for a few years now because i like to give my students enough room and prims to work. There are to many vocal “educators” that are trying to define what is happening in SL when they obviously are not leaving the educator ghettos and SLED list for information.
@Graham – YES!
Have to apologize, this post was reflexive rather than reflective. Saw the list, found it compelling, needed to read the date.
But it still begs the question – is there a better list since then? Maybe I should get a post to the SL educator list and see what kind of names we can drum up?
This does surface occasionally on the SLED list in the form of a “How many universities and colleges are there in SL?” type question. The Simteach page is the best list I know about but would benefit mightily IMHO from being a database rather than a wiki. I’m inclined to harvest what’s there in terms of institution, type and SLURL(s), together with a date when last visited and a comment field for highlights. Maybe put it in the Commons version of dabbleDb so it can be emebedded in wikis. I had it in mind anyway as the basis for a teleport gateway to UK university sims. Anyone wants to use that data as the basis for something more sophisticated, fine by me.
If there was real science behind that book, it did not show itself during the interview on Metanomics. What I heard was a bunch of business gossip about Phillip’s model and how messed up it is because he once knew some hippies and how Stewart Brand is some kind of socialist, hippist, bad seed.
The author never once talked about his methodology or his approach or his hypothosis or his conclusion. He just gossiped and appeared a bit horrified at the loosy goosy Californianess of it all. Oh my stars, where were there gantt charts?!! Faint and swoon.
For crying out loud, there are any number of Silicon Valley (or Seattle or Massachusettes) companies that had messy beginnings. BFD. The proof will be in the pudding. Does the thing make money for the investors? Yes or no? If Mr. Business author is all about the business, that should be something he talks about. Instead we get this gosh oh golly, isn’t their business model odd, kind of fainting spell.
Grow up. The people behind Linden Lab took a particular approach to the business. They have been profitable since day one. Why all the hand wringing?
Hellooo ! I’m working with augmented reality and i want to create a plane with a movie but i have a problem. could it be possible to send you the code?
OK, so I did a quick survey. My best guess is that of 160-ish UK universities and similar (but excluding Further Education, our equivalent of community colleges), about 60 own land of varying sizes in SL (and one in an OpenSim grid). That doesn’t mean, of course, that there aren’t individuals active on their own land or using someone else’s; indeed, I know of examples of this too. I’m aware that other estimates are higher — this was just a quick check, made without consulting any lists. It does, however, suggest that both lists cited in the original post are likely to be short of the mark. It makes no comment on the extent or type of use. If you factor in other countries and types of institution “hundreds” is definitely feasible. Of course, I can’t comment on the nature and extent of use. At least 10 of the sims are off-limits to the public.
Sorry, when I said “without consulting any lists”, I meant email lists. I obviously made use of both lists in the original post as well as John Kirriemuir’s excellent series of reports and podcasts, inworld search and Google.
Heh, I should also note that one of the Liverpool universities appears to have either closed or renamed its sim (sims named with obscure initials are a pain when they don’t provide access).
Yes, and I got a full ration of Twitter-hate when I explained that the reason why this is so is because Twitter was dominated at the start, and still dominated by middle-aged white male tekkies, especially the A-list bloggers with their special FIC-like set-asides of the autofollow function, which the devs gave them to blast their way to the top followers list, making the rest of us have to gain followers manually, and putting the rest of us at a 2000 cap.
I was just writing on Fred Wilson’s blog today that there is as much media concentration and ideological tilting in the soi-disant new media “freeness” as there was in old-fashioned old media.
And people hated on me for saying this because they find some example of some girl on Twitter from some famous mommy-blog and they think this is the cat’s meow. But it isn’t. Because males dominated the tekkie field — but the tekkie culture isn’t really so much about gender as it is about culture.
And that culture is in fact slavishly conformist, with loads of sheep just following leaders in tribes. Do something like search on Twitter for something Fred Wilson or Scoble or AJ Keen have said, and see the droves — the hordes — the mobs! — of people merely dutifully re-tweeting them *without even adding a comment*. It’s really scary. Not even a thought — nothing.
This leader-tribal following meme is hugely popular and viral and comes out of a corporate culture spawned by Silicon Valley in ways that other business culture in American doesn’t always have, i.e. it’s not as cuthroat and deadly in smaller business or family business or in business that depends on traditions and customer service far more than the constantly innovative and cutting-edge and destructive environment of Silicon Valley.
There’s also the very, very real problem of these male asswipes on Twitter of this insolent Internet culture who hate and stalk women, especially if they voice an opinion. I often find, especially if someone has found that I have an opposite-gender avatar, that I get the most vile and hateful DMs and even open tweets even worse than SL, with ugly tech nerds telling me they will come to my house in RL and beat me up, or telling me to “put that big mouth of yours to good use” on their privates. Honestly, you have to have nerves of steel to stay the course in this sort of setting. It’s the sort of thing that got an awful lot of attention with the Kathy Sierra case, but there are a thousand lesser-known stories.
And that means that women on Twitter don’t seek out followers, don’t reciprocate, lock their twitters, don’t talk, and tend to stay out of view.
Take a blog like TechCrunch or AVC or Scobleizer and you will find many days there isn’t a single woman uttering a peep — and many insolent males creating a climate that is intolerable.
That’s not to suggest that we need to make a forced Mr. Roger’s Neighbourhood, vet all speech, and force men into sensitivity training. I think they become more insolent the more fake politically correct crap like that is done. I think it’s more about making it possible for women to fight back — which I, for one, am willing to do : )
I think Twitter, which is really a virtual world when you get down to it, is really a lot more like Second Life than you do. After all, this power curve of 10 percent making the content for the other 90 percent fits Second Life, or the Sims Online, or anything where the few entertain or create for the many, to a T.
I disagree that Second Life is this wonderfully gorgeous mosaic of freely-transitioning genderless or cross-gendered creatures flying around and just living fabulously.
If that were the case, I couldn’t get almost daily hate mail, and vicious, nasty comments constantly, just because of a cross-gendered avatar. This is a definitely a double standard.
But even for those who do live the fabulous life, it is a bubble. It’s the Slintelligentsia.
The culture elsewhere is a lot about following and doing what everybody else does. Say one half line of criticism on the Concierge List or the SLB6 list or the forums, and find a deluge of conformists descend on you like a ton of bricks doing the Lindens’ dirty work for them handily, telling you to shut up, you are off-topic, if you don’t like it you can leave, etc.
In fact, some endeavours in SL, I find, require having to battle your way across very determined battalions of Lindens and worse — Linden fanboyz — to get to your goal. If you don’t fit in the hot-house orchid culture of these techlibs, you are exiled into the abyss.
In fact, what Harvard is finding is the dirty little secret of modern life. There isn’t any gender equality. There is in fact a worse inequality that is all the more awful precisely because it is buried deeper and more hatefully under a very thin veneer of civility.
[...] previously covered the New York Time’s piece on art in Second Life, one in which Lipsky was given significant [...]
Uh I have Second Inventory and it doesn’t work.
The Daily Kos was really a bust last year. It’s not just that people who are part of their web community had a hard time figuring out SL, or paying something like $25 US as a cover charge to come in and have this very rocky experience, the whole self-referential self-obsessed looping loopy lefty blogosphere thing just didn’t culturally “transpose” to SL.
I mean, even those of us interested enough to sit it out found that staring at a video of, oh, Hillary or something, along with other dancing avatars, was just not…compelling.
I have to say I rarely bother with Kos because it’s so insular and bloggy and insolent. One of the advotorial’s in today’s blog about the evils of “Republic foreign policy” scores the conservative notion of pragmatic American interests, and smugly snorts that this philosophy is what made the Republicans “get their ass handed to them,” but fails to make the sharp critique needed of the fact that…the Obama administration’s foreign policy isn’t all that…different. I mean, we still get a surge in Afghanistan, we can’t quite figure out what to do with Guantanamo, we still cheer NATO war exercises to piss off Russia. Where’s the big difference that the Kossacks were supposed to bring us? I don’t even *have* the leftist politics of these people, but geez, I can ask the questions they *should* be asking! Instead, they just keep jeering at the right as if it were still a presence, they keep mocking and ridiculing more conservative wings of the Democratic Party, and they keep ranting about non-essentials like the evils of Fox News blah blah making a virtual reality. You would never know that these people had *won the elections*. They can’t seem to drain the vitriol out of their systems from the last 8 years and do the job that blogs are supposed to do, afflicting the comfortable and comforting the afflicted.
Maybe if they had a name that didn’t sound like a traditionally nationalistic and even antisemitic militarized movement in Russia, they might have more followers?
What I *really hate* about these lefty groups coming into SL and everybody crowing about how wonderful it is that the “progressives” now have a “grassroots organizing tool” in SL is just how blind, ignorant, and indifferent these progressives are *to the problems of the community of Second Life itself*.
If they are free to blab on their blogs, they don’t care if someone is permabanned from the forums for talking about LL favouritism or banned from the JIRA for challenging some orthodox opensource coder nerd. Expulsions for “any reason or no reason” and the problems of the mainland and trying to run a society via a private company that refuses to even allow “no” votes are problems that are entirely opaque to them. They perch on top of these problems fabulously, golf-clapped by the Lindens, without understanding just what kind of a world we’re getting here, essentially endorsed *and enabled* by them when we get a dozen major-league newspapers (they still exist) with the predictable headlines about how they had their conference in Second Life.
139 percent of the population of Second Life could care less about them and their parochial issues inside the Beltway, but you will feel as if 142 dancing Kossacks on your sims is some sort of “big event”.
You would NEVER tolerate this in Canada, Dusan.
Dusan,
Nobody needs you to cut and paste NGO press releases that the Puffington Host already cut and pasted.
What’s happening now is that we’re seeing a non-profits hype which is exactly like the business hype of 2007.
This should get a lot more critical eye than it’s getting. You have to ask, ok, that’s lovely and progressive and fabulous and all that, but what is it that you DO beside providing vibrant photo opportunies to show off avatars on the reservation with the “costumes and colourful objects” dance for the tourists?
Anyway, I’m paging you over in this thread:
http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2009/06/nothing-on-the-top-but-a-bucket-and-a-mop-and-an-illustrated-book-about-birds.html
Well, Thomas Malaby is a transplanted Harvard man who is now at the University of Wisconsin — so yeah, all that tuti-fruiti Cali stuff is pretty weird, as it is for most of us, and that’s ok, he’s right to single that cultural affectation as essential to understanding the whole Linden gestalt.
I’m waiting to read the book, but I’ve already made known my concerns about methodology.
The idea that “Linden Lab was profitable from the beginning” isn’t at all supported by the facts, easily found in the Lindens’ own interviews in the press. They had to lay off workers and go through a terrible crunch in 2003; they didn’t declare themselves as profitable until along about 2008. And they plough their profits back into the business, which is a method that I, for one, question if you are claiming to “be profitable” — it’s not clear that the hippie investor really get all that much from it, because they are the types who are rich anyway, and this projects isn’t even among their main projects, and they are far more interested in influence and power and the ability to spread their California Ideology than they are in actual cash profit.
More than a hundred thousand hosts all running one particular software package. A lot of Linux-based servers were likewise immune (they didn’t use this particular piece of commercial software).
On our Treet TV show Designing Worlds we use Skype for audio. It’s a lot more predictable than Voice and although the audio quality is sometimes not as good as one would like, it doesn’t exhibit the erratic behaviour that Voice does and it’s a lot more flexible in the production environment.
Personally, I don’t like putting all my eggs in one basket. If you’re doing a TV show in-world then at least if SL has problems or you crash out, Skype audio is still there; similarly if you’re playing or DJing at an event the music stream will still be there even if you aren’t visible for a couple of minutes.
I am really glad, for example, that streaming audio is left to tried and tested external systems and not to internal Viewer functions beyond a player library.
Dusan you nailed it, late nights and wire plus a little duct tape keeps OpenSim running. My first thought when considering hosting OpenSim was, “we have to do superior support” to make users happy.
As you saw with the Lindens response yesterday & our struggle with a recent “Rocking The Metaverse” event virtual worlds are still working towards the reliability of the 2D web.
I had that same feeling yesterday when I saw your Metanomics team respond with utmost concern & with Linden follow up. I felt that you all cared so much that no matter what things would be worked out soon with such passionate people at the helm.
My wife Robin & I restored a 38 foot wooden schooner when we left the Navy & it was a struggle just to keep her afloat in the early years (one night I had to bail water for 5 hours when we awoke to a flood) but we did it and we ended up with a fine sailing vessel that even million dollar sportfishers would compliment us on.
This taught us a valuable lesson that you have to be persistent and the rewards you seek will come.
We all need to keep in mind the complexity of a virtual world. From servers to client it taxes every aspect of a computer like no other website or flash or silverlight application does. It needs a lot of care to run well and this will be true for some time to come.
So Dusan, Linden Labs, OSGrid & the many other virtual world platform developers and end users need to buckle down and keep in mind we’re still early in this game, still laying foundations, still patching leaks to keep our ships afloat, but that things will improve.
I myself will be back to Metanomics & I expect the Obama administration is not so short sighted as to not return. Virtual Worlds are already changing our lives with positive, forward thinking projects & I myself am proud of having peers like Metanomics & LL on the journey with us.
So though the water may rise and the ship may rock a bit some days we continue on because smooth sailing is coming & is well worth the wait and effort.
See you all in 3D-Kyle G CEO RG
I’m still pleasantly surprised every time I log on and everything works. Having no idea how things actually function, in the back of my mind there always seems to be the possibility that the entire enterprise will collapse into a heap of smoldering rubble at any moment.
It’s been an awfully long time since we have seen the “We’re fixing stuff and breaking things” screen which was a regular feature when I was new. For all the crabbing that goes on about a bit of lag or temporary asset server problems, I’m still delighted that everything works so well and stability has greatly improved in the last two years. It seems to me that the cancellation of a Metanomics show has become noteworthy because it is now unusual in the day to day SL experience.
Oh, and to clear up a lot of confusion… we have met in person several times. When I first met him in person it was in London when I flew over there. ITV filmed a documentary about us, so all of our first moments are actually captured on film. It was a made for broadband series, and if you google Rhonda Lillie & Paul Hawkins and Second Lifers all in one go you can see that we have indeed met. He’s flown here to California and met my family, and I’ve been to the UK twice to meet and hang out with his. Each trip we spent over 3 weeks each time. So,… yes, we met online in Second Life,… yes we keep in touch via webcams on SKYPE and yes, we have met each other 3 times in the past few years. It’s just that for the first 2 1/2 years we were “only online” but for the past 2 1/2 years we’ve been traveling to see each other as often as we can afford to. The only reason we’re not together yet (married) is because of laws/rules/immigration… and we are working on all of that, fixing everything so we can finally be together. But, it’s working out fine and we’re happy.
Jo,
In my opinion (since I went through that) there’s something missing in real life that draws us to Second Life… whether it’s a partner who we can converse with openly, to needing more attention, to whatever may be missing. People seek out what they are missing in many ways, it’s just that instead of going out to bars with friends, or such they decided it’s easier to stay home and go to a virtual bar. I don’t blame Second Life for creating an environment like this, because it’s not the environment that causes failed relationships, the relationships are failing because there’s something missing and the people in these relationships will do what they must do to find happiness… and in the end, is there anything wrong with moving on when you’re no longer happy?
@Tateru – yes, I should have put more emphasis on that. I fear that a lot of people read the headline “OpenSim hacked” and not realized that it wasn’t the specific target, but a bystander in a wider take-down.
@Elrik – I agree. We work with Treet as well, and have been through many of the same audio checks/decisions with them. We’ve tested across platforms, in world voice, Skype, etc. We actually have three configurations, one of which includes a guest calling in from a land line (phone! wow!) and the voice being streamed through their avatar. Kind of a smoke and mirrors thing a little but we use it in a pinch when the guest can’t get in world (rarely used, but still).
@Kyle & Corc – wow, you know, your kind words and thoughtful response really brightened my day. Thank you so much for that.
Mitch Kapor can say we’re past the frontier days, but every now and then we’re reminded that we’re still riding a brand new wave, and sometimes the tidal pull is a bit stronger than we expected – but what a ride it is.
Oh good. Same time as SLCC.
-ls/cm
reading. don’t think i have anything to add.
( I do know during the exact time of the show yesterday my PC wanted to download and install 13 updates… i dunno if all the PCs in the world suddenly were being pressed to deal with the computer updates.)
“I hardly think we’ll get Obama or Steve Jobs on the show after this one.”
Well, it is still early stage after all. We are experimenting. We are trying to push the boundaries of communication and connection and make geography collapse.
I cannot believe Obama or Jobs would not find this interesting and worth at least a try.
To rezz or not to rezz, that is the question…
I am unsure why you put the opensim and metanomics topics in the same blog, Dusan. Ok, they are co-located in time and they both involve examples of virtual worlds breaking, but the differences make the juxtaposition confusing.
It looks like hacking story involved OpenSim only as collateral damage – the server hosts were really at the center of this topic.
And yesterday’s metanomics fail… after missing one after the other this was my first to attend live (albeit on the webcast) and I had plenty other work to occupy me as I watched the lighthearted chatbridge traffic scrolling from top to bottom. I have to admit I was reminded of why I avoid video teleconferences… it seems at least 20 or 30 minutes are required to dink around and get things working while the meeting is stalled… (granted, i am referring to the prehistoric system where i work) …and I have to wonder if it is really worth it.
Of course, it makes sense to ‘walk the walk’ with metanomics and explore the technology while talking about the technology. That said, I am glad I didn’t follow up on my initial thought to call in colleagues when I was starting to watch the metanomics presenation. That would not have been a good first impression for doing meetings in VW
It sounded to me that Mr. Werbach took the glitches in stride. Most tech savvy people learn one of the most important skills is to tolerate frustration or else move into another line of work.
I’m sorry this had to happen with such a high-profile visitor — ouch, you guys don’t deserve that at all. I hope you will get someone from the administration soon.
Yes, Skype and TalkShoe or some other service like that are good backups.
Re: OpenSim, we would never know this had happened to this overhyped HypeGrid if you hadn’t reported it. Thanks! And all the scrambling to justify it from Tateru doesn’t cut it — it’s an awful collapse, of the kind that SL hasn’t seen since 2004 when the Lindens actually decided to monetarily compensate people in Linden dollars for 2 days of no service.
And…we don’t know that in fact it wasn’t the target. Why assume that?
I had the worst attack of inventory loss I’ve ever had in SL this week. I had my boards and posters and rezzers set up to go put in the installation at the LandExpo when whoops, half my inventory disappeared. This happens all the time, my inventory fluctuates daily from 20,000 to 24,000 items, and I even keep items stashed inworld like a squirrel, but this was now down to 12,000, and losing precisely ever single thing I had accessed in the last 48 hours.
I tried everything to flush it all back, even trying a new trick which involves logging on to aditi and then to agni a few times, which forced in some of it, but a lot of my house rezzers are still gone, which amounts to hundreds of US dollars.
Having to hastily make a kind of scrappy display at LandExpo after that, I felt pretty hosed. Walking around the Expo like a fly crawling in molasses, with the sims being reset by Lindens and people bitching in the group, I gave up.
And I, too, realized that I never try to “work in SL” or “on a schedule”. I’ve made my small business there completely adaptable with all kinds of redundancies, workarounds, tactics, feints, etc. to try to deal with the never ending chain of bad mojo — builds lost from sims inexplicably, rental boxes resetting their times on sim restarts, scripts being turned into mush by some new patch, etc. etc. I keep four different kinds of rental boxes going, I have land spread all over on 60 sims so if one is done, I can send a customer to another, etc. etc.
And all of this is sort of “dysfunctional” because when I have to try to do something like “I would in real life,” i.e. make a plan, make a chart, perform it on schedule, it turns into hash.
I really have a new respect for people like you or Fleep Tuque or others who try to “work like we do in real life” with what we call “plans” and “schedules”.
Does it ever get better?
always seems like important meetings and demos using computers and then the web haven’t worked on schedule in 20 years:)
Just another episode of the holodeck breaking? or is there something deeper not being learned after 20 years.
more real than real? hopefully not.
glad my os sim is on reactiogrid.:) keep it running Kyle:)
Ditto.
LOL!
interesting.
it combines so many issues… i had to follow it back to its youtube birth.
1. things like this will force youtube to a rated/sectioned service, it will assist lawmkers in realizing that all “time”-age appropriate commercial usage of media has been broken due to the 24/7 internet for a number of years…
2. it suffers from the “uncanny valley” of hyperrealism that destroys most emotional attachment to the image. read the youtube twittter like luvs or dis’s of it. beavis and buthead as live beings, not 2d avatars…compare it to the 3 stooges “pain” movies of the past…
is it the same? or is it now different because of its context and intent?
faces of death- the pepsi commercial ?
any one in this peanut gallery familiar with the movie “battle royalle” made in japan a few years ago?
Hey
Just wanted to share here a great site I’ve found for Free Mobile Applications etc. is Esnips.com I’ve found everything on my list…
let me know what you think!, Hope this helps
I’m Out
http://www.uberpix.net/673/george-lucas-now-and-then/
kind of sums it up eh?
an old freind sent me this url…:)
c3
[...] Dusan Writer believes this is a step in the upcoming merger with the teen-grid, I believe that it’s a broader move that aligns Second Life with many other online policies. [...]
As I think about this some more, I’m more and more convinced that Linden Lab’s severe problems could be symptomatic of a major hack, too. They never, ever tell when they are hacked anyway. They make a policy of never, ever admitting that when sims are crashed it is deliberate. So I think this question definitely needs to be asked.
Virtual tourism is a great use case for VWs. There are many great examples in SL including city based ones like Dublin inSL. Mexico was also a very successful project, which has been extended for years beyond its original timeframe.
The Costa Rica Cocos Island sim ( http://dizzybanjo.wordpress.com/2009/03/01/costa-rica-tourist-board-uses-virtual-worlds-to-promote-tourism-cocos-island-second-life/ ) is actually designed to promote environmental awareness of the island, not encourage visitors. It’s still there, in fact it was recently moved on the grid to integrate with the very successful series of Costa Rica residential sims run by Giancarlo Takacs. This was a great move by Costa Rica to integrate an official presence of theirs with an unofficial but highly successful resident run presence.
Oh! nice Dizzy!
The Costa Rica sim was amazing – so well done. And yes, that’s a very good move to ‘integrate it’….post cards are great, but when you can actually ‘live it’ (or live next to it), it’s even better.
we were working in the background with Treet.TV throughout the show to try to handle the many issues we encountered. There were far more things going on than just voice problems. We do have a Skype fall-back available for voice, and have used it several times on shows in the last couple of months (maybe no one noticed when we did, which would be a good thing
.
The Treet.TV cameras and several key avatars on-set were experiencing repeated disconnects or crashes, to the point where we could not keep a solid enough video feed nor keep the guest inworld to consistently run the show.
There was something quite wrong with the region that several restarts did not resolve, including a problem that would generate an error any time any avatar would try to rez any attachment (and the attachment would fail to load). Collectively, the number of issues, and the distributed nature of the problems, got to be enough that we opted to cancel and attempt to reschedule the show.
At this point, through time inworld and with Concierge, I believe that we have the region back to a reasonable operating profile, and hope that for next week’s show we’re back to smooth operation.
Now that the region has had a thorough smackdown, it’s actually running more smoothly than we’ve ever seen it – including during the period when we were putting the new studio build together. I’m thinking at the moment that there was something wrong with it over the long term that was slowly degrading, and that hopefully now we’ll be back in a good position for next week’s show.
Thank you all for your support!
Joel Savard
@Prokofy Deliberate interference is always a possibility, however given the number of behavioral issues we have now resolved, I think it’s entirely possible for the problems we saw yesterday to have been fully the result of non-malicious system stability issues. We will be watching closely going forward…
Joel
Yeah, I think we mostly saw a buzz and a flitter twitter about the intriguing aspects of the screenshots. People jumped in to discuss.
… the thought of the change to what tateru presented I think it where the hype is stemming from. I think its way to early to know anything.
“Otherwise, if the new viewer comes anywhere close to what Tateru posted, then I’m building my own.”
Sign me up.
I must sound incredibly snarky about this whole thing…I commented over on the Metaverse Journal, one of my favorite sites, as well….and maybe came across as a little defensive…
But really….as I comment there:
“I’m still shuddering in horror if this is anything like what the final release will look like. I suppose I am pleading or begging, in a way, to make this picture I now have of “SL 2.0″ go AWAY.
I’ve placed faith that Howard and M will help to solve some of the major riddles of the interface, the first hour, and other things… and if this is as far as they’ve gotten, my faith would frankly sink like a lead balloon.”
Dusan –
Thanks for the mention. The HyperVM hack took down over 100,000 websites — and just over 100 OpenSim regions — so it seems pretty clear that the OpenSim regions were just collateral damage, hosted on the affected servers. Unless it was a really malicious hacker who specifically wanted to destroy a few homesteads, office buildings and an up-and-coming convention center.
And covered it up by taking down all the other stuff as well.
However, most OpenSim regions stayed up. OSGrid alone has over 2,000 regions. ReactionGrid is fully up. All the home-based regions were unaffected, of course, since they don’t use the virtualization software that was hacked. And many regions had full off-line backups, such as Simon Gutteridge’s regions on PioneerX, and will be fully recovered as soon as the servers are back up.
I love the degree of control OpenSim (and similar grid servers) offer their operators. You can host at home, on a cheap shared server, on an expensive, high-end server, or on the Amazon cloud, if you wanted to. A friend of mine is talking about setting up an OpenSim-based conference center using Sim-OnDemand’s Amazon Cloud hosting service. That’s less than $10 for 10 hours of use… get the region all set up, then activate it when you need it, shut it down when you don’t. I’ll be interested in trying it out if the project gets going — and I’m sure there will be several like it pretty soon.
- Maria, Hypergrid Business
As near as I can tell, the build we got is the latest build. There’s no evidence to suggest that there was a newer one (actually there was one about 20 hours after we got the first one, but it did not differ in any substantive detail). What we do know is that the builds we obtained are “hot off the presses” from the internal development code — but perhaps not what someone actually is building on their desktop with code that hasn’t been checked in.
Tateru – Commented on Massively but 1) the Lab is sending mixed signals, perhaps scrambling, or perhaps purposefully sending out trial balloons and 2) ugh. Seriously, if this is anything like where they’re truly at after all this time, then I’ve been misplacing my faith that they can solve the devilish issues of the viewer, orientation, search and balancing the needs of residents with new users and enterprise.
There’s a sad coda to this story, first picked up as a rumor by Tateru, but confirmed online:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/09/lxlabs_funder_death/
“The boss of Indian software firm LxLabs was found dead in a suspected suicide on Monday.
Reports of the death of K T Ligesh, 32, come in the wake of the exploitation of a critical vulnerability in HyperVM, a virtualization application made by LXLabs, to wipe out data on 100,000 sites hosted by the UK web hosting firm VAserv.”
[...] week’s edition of Metanomics was cancelled because of technical problems. I hope we’ll have another try with the same [...]
Oh, the death was confirmed at the time of writing — whether it is suicide or not, I believe, remains unconfirmed until the coroner’s report becomes public. That was the only part of the statement I was really in doubt about.
hi dusan! i just wanted to say that i have been using voice morphing ever since voice came in. like all things with voice there are good days and bad ones, but on the whole my experience with voice and morphing has been good. some of the other new enhancements sound exciting, and for me as a language educator the recording of voice will be a huge bonus.
whatyas doing made a comment about sl’loosing its audience. are there any hard stats to back that up? i have noticed a lot of sims populated by avi-bots that are totally unresponsive, which is quite worrying as some times you don’t run into a single live person for hours.
by the way i am sending this o my daughter’s nintendo dsi – amazing!
kaylee
Hey, worst case scenario, we can just switch to Hippo Viewer, which is very, very similar to the current SL viewer.
Hear that, LL? PLEASE do EXTENSIVE testing and tweaking, with LOTS of your current users, before forcing it on us, er I mean rolling it out.
At least LL responded, I am mostly left twisting in the wind.
This is a great step in the right direction, but virtual world offerings are very hard to pitch.
I work for a defense contractor and been trying to pitch a Second Life offering for the last year. We could cut the price of our software fieldings in half by utilizing SL or something similar. It’s very difficult to pitch and LL doesn’t help too terribly much (Yes, I had them on the phone, even).
LL needs a marketing package to help guys like me help them.
Your information is a bit outdated: http://www.qwaq.com/company/press_releases/pr-2009_04_28.php
Qwaq is making great progress and virtual worlds are having a tremendous impact. That much is true.
Man, trust me, you dont know what you are talking about.
[...] those who are working in the military, the government is increasing its use of online education – according to Dusan Writer’s Web page. It continues to expand and develop its training courses [...]
[...] US Federal Government Ramps Up Virtual World Training – Dusan Writer [...]
cool
I’m expecting more of the UI to be redone in the popout designs they’re using for the new elements. Probably much of the work at the moment involves trying to get the UI layer to support anything more sophisticated than what is already there.
Super interview today at Metanomics… thanks!
http://davidcheney.wordpress.com/2009/06/16/immersion-2-0/
It was indeed a great event!
It’s kind of frustrating, however, that I know Jim Sink is currently answering additional questions “on the Metanomics website”, but cannot find any information on *where*
Takuan – we’ll have the questions posted on the Metanomics site shortly…and I’ll post the URL here as well…stay tuned!
Takuan – the questions have now been posted – please add any we missed! They can be found here:
http://www.metanomics.net/blog/blue_mars_questions_and_answers/
Brilliant Dusan………….. thank you. I couldn’t agree more.
Social connections are great, but for a lot of people, having good content creation tools and having interoperability between platforms so they can get that content to as many as possible *IS* extending social connections and sense of self. It’s what they want to do in virtual worlds.
I think it would be a shame if virtual worlds focused too much on just getting people in there vs. letting people create things with the 1’s and 0’s at their disposal once they do get there.
It’s why I like some of the things realXtend and others are doing to improve the means and the number of traditional 3d apps that are well supported for getting content in.
Great post!
You’re right, communities are putting more demands on social gaming, particularly virtual worlds, but there needs to be more cross-platform content available and valuable to the overall gaming experience.
I envision a game that you can play simultaneously across personal computers or consoles (eventually browser based) in addition to phones and traditional printed media.
Once I can play a game, go somewhere and see advertising for completely virtual world-based products and then get a text message from an in-game character that enhances my gaming experience, I know I’ll be happy
Horrified?
I’m more horrified by the continued ‘avatarzation” of Identity and “responsibility” as the “gamerz” meme increases its “importance” with all “virtuality” media online.
A thought.. a question…
Why wasn’t Hasbro’s plastic engineers or Mattel’s marketing director asked to speak to congress or at corporate paid think tanks about our future society, the individual and the laws for governing in the 1970s?
I dunno.
[...] http://dusanwriter.com/index.php/2009/06/18/blue-mars-social-media-open-government-and-virtual-world... [...]
Thanks for the comments, folks. I really enjoyed appearing on Metanomics. I’m eager to hear what you think of the book, Prok. By the way, do you also hold Tom Boellstorff accountable for not interviewing Lindens and not doing research at Linden Lab for his book about Second Life? That just strikes me as an inconsistency, but maybe I don’t understand your criticism fully.
I’ve said it before, but I’ll say again that this is not a “corporate ethnography.” It belongs squarely in the long tradition of ethnographies of organizations. How is the project of doing ethnographies of organizations illegitimate? It strikes me as one of the few ways we can pull back the veil on institutions that are often deeply invested in remaining cyphers.
I agree about the old and new. I wouldn’t be surprised if a good analysis of the forums in 2004-2005 could have yielded many similar insights. As you note, this is a cultural logic that informed Linden Lab (and, in my opinion, many other companies). From one point of view, if one has recognized it (as you have Prok), it’s not surprising. I think the really dangerous thing about it is in fact how few have recognized it, however.
In any event, and responding to some other comments here, I understand that some viewers/readers, like Cranky above, will not approach the work on its own terms (the silly notion that science requires hypothesis testing rears its ugly and ill-informed head once more). For those that do, hopefully it will contribute to situating virtual world makers within some important histories.
Excellent! I’ve been meaning to get my avatar’s teeth cleaned…
Seriously though, I do like that it is an *additional* tool rather than a replacement tool. I’m not sure how I’d feel about visiting a dentist who did the majority of their training in a virtual world.
Thomas Malaby said: “By the way, do you also hold Tom Boellstorff accountable for not interviewing Lindens and not doing research at Linden Lab for his book about Second Life?”
I have just finished Boellstorff’s book and am eagerly awaiting yours. It could be said that you two have been looking at two sides of the same coin. What would be REALLY interesting now is if you two were to compare notes. I’d be very interested to see where the mismatches are in the ways these two communities view Second Life (and I think if either of you had chosen to examine “the other side of the coin” to any extent in your research it would be difficult to see any mismatches that were there). What about doing an “In Conversation” event together inworld? I’d come!
I can understand why social scientists p**s off “real” scientists (hehe). Coming from an arts background, but with a keen interest in hard science topics (A-Life, complex adaptive systems) I cannot take ethnographic methods seriously as _scientific_ research. However, there are other types of research which are equally valid (IMHO), and which provide different sorts of knowledge, not readily accessible via the scientific method. Whereas I can’t take ethnography seriously as science, I think it is a powerful methodology when considered as craft-led research (a subset of practice-led research) (the craft in this case being writing). I am wondering how much ethnographers do themselves a disservice by trying to insist they are scientists. Science isn’t all of human knowledge and the world would be a dull place if it was.
p.s. I thought it a dreadful shame that on this edition of metanomics Robert Bloomfield chose not so much to connect-the-dots as to push his fundamentalist augmentationist agenda. This paragraph in particular filled me with dread …
Robert Bloomfield said: “But how much can we learn about people from the way they dress? Is that woman really a man? Maybe we can tell. Group membership and other profile data would also seem to provide a lot of useful information that we can use to identify who’s who. In the end, the Reynard Program will help the sincere among us in two ways. By helping us uncover tricksters and perhaps more importantly, by helping us devise new ways to establish our reputations and our credentials more reliably within the rather unusual sphere of Virtual Worlds, and Second Life in particular. And, by the way, don’t be surprised if later this year you see researchers in Second Life asking you to fill out surveys that will help them correlate your real-life characteristics with your Second-Life behaviours, profile data and other information from the World. I hope that you will all cooperate with them, as this is a research program that I think can really help all of us. But, one caution, before you provide any personal information: double-check their credentials.”
A week after reading this, my jaw still hasn’t undropped enough to write a civil response (but I’ll be back when it has).
spin x
see what i mean…
http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=94627602308&h=sHXW8&u=nzZzc&ref=nf
http://itc.conversationsnetwork.org/shows/detail4112.html
True.
Unfortunately, one can literally see the difference when walking past someone with a 1000 and over ARC in a crowded event. Hair Fair for example. I never had the rubber band experience walking past someone with an ARC of 1.
Sometimes a smooth experience and being courteous is welcome when attending a popular venue.
ARC is called shame in the source code. Guess why.
Ah and all those 3DS MAX kiddies should be taught how to optimize stuffs.
Btw an ARC fence should be built in the estate tools. If you can ban types of people (like non-verified accs) why cant you ban ignorant resource hogs?
And fashion divas? SL women look nothing like RL women. They look ugly in SL. Not just ugly. Dull.
Okay, not fair. Can’t watch movie while at work.
You should know by now you are *expected* and it is *demanded* that you painstakingly transcribe every last word into written transcript, AND analyze it for any inside scoops and predictions based on the spin that was spun after unspinning it and didecting and describing such spin and why it is spin and why it was spun to begin with.
Sheesh.
Even dildiconics goes open-source?
http://wiki.opendildonics.org/
/me snickers
“ROBERT BLOOMFIELD: Whereas, in Second Life, it’s quite high. And we’ve got a couple questions just regarding, I guess, let’s just talk about the client as opposed to the user. Mitch Wagner is asking, “Are we going to see this ever as a web plug in or something like that?” And Valiant Westland asks, “Are we ever going to see this in Best Buy, like the Sims?” Do you see anything like that?
MARK KINGDON: Well, I think you’re more likely to see it in Best Buy as a package piece of software maybe with a headset included in a really, really good how to book, before you see it as a web plug in because that’s much easier. We’ve had conversations, certainly, about packaging up and making it available.
As for making it a web plug in, our strategy is somewhat different. With respect to the viewer, we’re really trying to create a 2.0 experience that’s much more intuitive, much more natural and much more easy for the new user to adopt, and that will be a downloadable client in the short term.
ROBERT BLOOMFIELD: Let me ask. When you say 2.0, you just mean a complete overhaul. You’re not using a Web 2.0 buzzword. Is that right?
MARK KINGDON: Yes. I’m talking about it in terms of an overhaul or renovation of the current viewer. But, there are a lot of Web 2.0 tools and approaches that we want to introduce to the Second Life experiences. Those will be very much web based. Next month we’re going to launch kind of the first rev of our new website which starts to move in that direction or build a platform for further extensions, later in the year, out to the web. Social tools are really, really powerful, and we want to be able to extend the Second Life experience out to social media properties that people enjoy today. You can find a lot of photographs on Flickr. Plurk has a lot of activity. Second Lifers are definitely tweeting because I see them on TweetDeck every morning, but there’s a lot more opportunity for us there that we haven’t developed. So we have the viewer, but, in parallel, we’ve started quite a lot of work on the web side of the business.”
SCOOP: Social media is the buzz of the year. Twitter is the next big thing (until it’s not). M uses TweetDeck.
I personally hate tweetdeck. It’s hypnotic.
@Ari Transcribed. Predictions to follow. Spinny.
Oh maaaaaan. Sex should be proprietary and certainly NOT open, although MAYBE it could be held in creative commons.
Hahah!
You’re awesome.
Phew, good thing that’s not even close to the final UI (according to Howard Linden), or that’d be a real embarrassing juxstaposition.
Geem Anonymus-Not…. better to be a resouce hog than a whining ARC Nazi. If you had the brains God gave a doorknob you’d not insist others make changes to their SL experience simply because you have a lousy machine and are too stupid to reconfigure it to optimize SL on YOUR end.
[...] Expert: Cybersex to Go Mainstream – Dusan Writer [...]
Doubledown: I would like to invite you to our virtual campus. Our intent at vTSTC is to move online learning from being a process driven exercise to experience based learning. We believe it is through experience our students will excel in their academic and professional achievements.
So in other words, you are right on track by asking what about the college experience and can it be created in a virtual environment. I will let you be the judge. Feel free to send me an in-world IM for a tour at your convenience. (SL Name: ChrisG Techsan)
wow we really are becoming like america…..and have no rights as adults……wow…..thought australia was a free country …. grow up … thats incredable…whats it worry ppl what others play games on the net at home….have u guys ever watched the simpsons…that so called cartoon show for kids ……damn amazing
further more that must also mean u have to ban all adult content from the internet….that means…australian economy goes down the tubes even more…..i play second life and curently have bigpond…nows theres a bill i get rid of…good luck bigpond and other internet surpliers….ohhh wait can we play simpsons online……unbelievable
Hey what are they going to do about people playing via proxy servers. Could be a big market for someone
@Tula:
“wow we really are becoming like america…..and have no rights as adults……wow”
Okay, blatant anti-American B.S.
1) Second Life is an American company, in America, and hasn’t been banned. Maybe America isn’t the one you should be concerned about right now. If you’re trying to point fingers at countries which have less rights, why not bring up Iran? Blatant violations there, right? Ah yes, but that’s so easy and if you did that…it wouldn’t be anti-American.
2) I’m American, I live in America, and I have tons of rights. I am not “less free” than in other Western countries. Right now, I’m visiting Paris. I speak fluent French, I know French culture, I taught myself the language over 10 years. I have lived in England and other places as well. I can tell you that I’ve never felt that America is “less free” than those other places. I think it’s BS how people spew this nonsense online as if it were true.
If I am reading the Wikipedia article about the MA15+ standard correctly, having age verification for online content provides an exemption; at least in the current system.
Technically, there are no new laws. Not yet, anyway.
Also, the the Inquisitr is incorrect, so far, nothing has been said about Second Life.
It is *likely* that Australians will be blocked from SL if the new system goes ahead as is currently planned, but it is not yet clear certain that it will do so, especially as there is a much more severe issue with the new measures.
Australians, you may like to contact your government representative about this at the earliest opportunity.
New Zealand went through a similar spell of madness to do with peoples rights online (3 strikes and you’re kicked off the net, I think it was) and that was overturned. The whole net chimed in on that issue and hopefully the same will happen again with Australia.
Net filtering has been heavily protested, to no avail sadly.
Australians are being given no say in the matter really.
The irony about all this is that given the new implementations by Linden Labs regarding Age Verification AND the long existing Teen Grid… we still may be blocked out.
The obsession with trying to control the internet really comes down to controlling the people of course.. the things that are plastered all over the media to “inform” the morally upright citizen of the “evils” of the internet & games are scapegoats.
The really sad part about all this and something the goverment completely ignores is that many online gamers find social interaction that may be hard for them in normal life… whether they be lonely, disabled or marginalised in any way.. or maybe they can’t afford to go out to nightclubs given the current economic situation.
As a long term SL resident and an Australian, I will be doing my utmost to oppose these policies and shall encourage my friends to do the same.
Somehow I think this will lift what was already a big protest into a higher gear as online gaming is very popular here…let’s hope so!
I once heard someone say a bad word during a conference call. Someone should tell Australia they should ban Skype too. Oh, and WebEx. In fact, I once saw someone type a bad word using Microsoft Office. They seemed to be enjoying themselves, so it would be a game too, right? Have fun down under, everyone.
Oh, this better not be true! Second life is a huge form of income for me!
I will be finding more information on this and definitely get some people together opposing this before it goes too far.
LOL @ Robert, oh yes, that’ll be the way it does. Even neopets will be banned at this rate. I’m sure people have said “bad words” on there.
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=1229264#r1
@Tula Saros
I’m with Summer Seale.
I’m tired of statements like that going unchallenged. If you don’t like it, stop finger-pointing at some fantasy you have about a typical American. Present your grievance to your own legislature.
Im a secondlife user, although imnot in australia, a huge clump of my friends are. if this’s indeedtrue, theres gona be some serious bitchfits going on :/….
and those spewin anti-american bs, im with summer sis too… yall needa grow the f*** up… ooopsie i said bad word. oh wait, its not illegal in UK to swear. fuckin great.
I truly feel bad for you guys in australia..
It sounds like the Australian parliament could pass a law which distinguishes online environments like Second Life from games. Banning Second Life because it is used to depict sexual content is like banning Firefox for the same reason.
SL isn’t a game to many people. I’m not aussie, but my dearest friends and a woman I love very much are. SL gives me the opportunity to spend time with them on a more dynamic platform then skype, or msn could. I hope they realize that this kind of censorship won’t get rid of the mature content out there. people interested in that kind of material will always find access to it somehow. but many people will lose contact with friends and loved ones.
I said earlier:
“It sounds like the Australian parliament could pass a law which distinguishes online environments like Second Life from games. Banning Second Life because it is used to depict sexual content is like banning Firefox for the same reason.”
I did a little research:
I have little or no idea what the rules are for the Australian Parliament, even though I am a member of a somewhat simliar body in the USA, i.e., the New Hampshire General Court.
The House and Senate do not meet again until mid-August. A bill could (I am guessing) be introduced at that time, or maybe even earlier but then it has to go through committee in one house and then be passed and sent through a similar process in the other house before being signed into law.
It’s up to the Aussies to fix this problem: a well-intentioned law was written too restrictively and hopefully they will be able to fix it. It would be difficult to stop Aussies from downloading Second Life and playing it in the meantime.
Depending on what the law says, the Lindens could get an injunction. I suspect LL has lawyers and lobbyists in Canberra working on this even as we speak, since Australia is a major market for SL.
It is a good thing this isn’t happening in NH: we can only file legislation for next year during a single week in mid-September, and it can’t be acted on until January-June 2010.
I think Censorship Minister Stephen “Goebbels” Conroy should be examined very closely. It’s always the ultra conservative repressed gov. officials who try to “moralize” the public by seeking to control the public via religious based dogma derived from some archaic time in history and it’s these same self appointed moral control freaks who inevitably reveal themselves to be hypocritical significant pervs.
Just in the last couple of weeks here in the US, we’ve had two right wing conservative family values intolerant asshat politicians both get caught boinking their extra-marital twinkies.
And really, WTF? Why is gov. trying to parent here? The responsibility of what children see on TV, in films, in games and online is that of their parents, not the gov. Slap warning stickers on things — but leave the parenting to the parents. If the parents are too fucking stupid to responsibly parent their kids and block their computers with tons of software that is available or use V chip technology, etc., then have the gov. go after the parents and punish them for neglect, child endangerment, etc. Don’t punish responsible adults (with or without kids) who are perfectly capable of deciding for themselves (and their children) what content on TV, in films, games and the net they choose or don’t choose to view.
well what about my case I have a business in SL what happens to that
and a friend i know works for SL and its their job …will they lose their job!
why do aussie put up with such crap from teh government!!!!
we are still the only place in teh world who gets charged for internet data and gets capped !!!
I hope they ban this game.
I mean other than the adult content you have gambling/money laundering businesses disguised as skill game operators.
I hope the FBI looks into this.
Someone tell me what is so fucking bad about banning this game?
nick le some people make a living from this game like my friend who works for linden labs she will lose her job how how would you like it if you would lose your job because some moron decided that adults cant do adult things
Age verification is not an option for games, because there is no rating higher than MA15+ in Australia, and even for adult sites with approved ratings (e.g. R18+) the age verification has to meet conditions that webmaster outside Australia is going to bother with – it includes requirements for record keeping which probably fall foul of local privacy laws.
No legislation has been formulated yet, all we can go on is stated government policy. With a majority in the House and good party discipline there is no doubt that anything proposed will get through the House. The situation in the Senate is different – no party has a majority, and if, as is likely, the opposition conservatives oppose it, it has no chance, as the Greens are outright against it.
However, if rejected by the Senate twice, with an interval of three months, the government has the option of calling an early election for both houses. Assuming the government is returned, it could then hold a joint sitting of both houses, which could pass the legislation, assuming that the majority in the House is greater than the lack of one in the Senate.
This outcome is unlikely, because proportional representation in the Senate, coupled with electing a whole Senate (normally half at a time) would make it likely that there would be even more unaligned senators, a situation the government is unlikely to relish.
what is also in second life is people that have disabilities able to socialize and people making friends and creativity and in my case i make music so i play my music to the world and have concerts, there are people who have bad social skill being able to be more relaxed due to not having to be embaressed by their looks … a way to make international friends catching up with family from overseas or how about shift workers that get to socialise due to different time zone i know heaps of people who have found love in this game which has developed into real life relations and marriage . by the way gambleing has be stopped in SL so that is good so you can scrap that part from it and now SL is going to make the adult part of SL restricted from under age people so whats bad with that??
I’m not anti American I love them…most of my best friends are american and I met them online…..I love SL …..and I wasnt having a go at americans personally…..Just the some ppl in government who think they are do-gooders dictate to what other ppl can do
im on secondlife all the time i have met so many friends and have more ppl that feel like family to me why the damn hell ban something that is played in our own homes and if ur not smart enough to stop ur under age children playing games like this then thats ur folt im a full time mum of 3 and i love my second life its the only adult compoany i have during the day and keeps me from going nuts i know that their are alot of really pissed off aussies right now Plz do not ban sl it has made my life better and i know ppl actualy make money on sl so u would be killing ppls only income that just not right.
omg, I cant even grasp what our government thinks its doing??? If I wanted to live in a communist country I would move to china, where they even censor google. I mean come on politicians stop trying to be the all knowing. Its a knee jerk reaction to a world wide problem with pedo rings and such. But as an adult who has children, you learn fast about the newest technology so we can properly guide them. The parents need to be pro active, the government would be better in educating them instead of punishing the rest of the country. I have a business in Second life, a lot of my friends do as well. I have a good friend that works for Linden Labs, this would mean her job, and how she provides for her family. Just recently the community of Second life raised over $11,000 AUD in world for the bushfire appeal in Victoria. Not too mention all the other charity work that happen every day in world. Its just a joke really what our government wants to do , plain stupid. I cant believe they were voted in really. When does it stop?? do they pull the plug on the internet, like a parent punishing a naughty child?? Shame on you Stephen Conroy, shame on you
exactly what annoyed aussie says, sl is a social life normal ppl would not have in real life….for different reasons…..I’m very shy in real life but when Im in sl I have fun..listen to music dance and I dj on there, and I have millions of friends there I can talk to not only in America (where the majority of my friends are from)from all over the world….and I can get on sl and talk to them anytime I want….
Very True Surreal
If I cant get on SL, i wont pay for internet…and from me bigpond gets $80 a month and thats just me …1 person….1 house….can u imagine how many Australians there is that will do the same ….
I’m an American currently living in Australia and I can tell you now, we have a LOT more freedoms than Aussies do. Sorry to say it.. but you Anti-American’s are dead wrong there. And our stores don’t all close at 5:30 either.. that’s a wash!
Eh, i’m still really annoyed about this. If they want to ban a virtual world, they better ban the real damn world too, where’s it’s a hell of a lot worse than SL.
I would go back and re-read Tateru’s comment I think she is on the money. Nothing to get hysterical about yet. The commentator in this article highlighted the idiocy of the legislation by mentioning SL and WOW. I’ll worry about it if it happens.
The Senator needs better advisors, it seems like he is being advised by people with no bloody idea. Again its a case of walking around with blinkers on just ignoring progress until it is upon them and they haven’t planned for it. SL has been around now for 6 years!!!! ok so we are slow to pick it up, but its our terrible internet that makes it very hard for people to embrace the internet as people do in other developed countries. The Howard Govt didn’t care about the internet and put it in the too hard basket and now its coming back to bite us in the bum, we should have got a better broadband 5 years ago! and now we have to wait for it, some of us another 8 years! gees…we will be Teleporting around the globe by the time that comes in!
I suggest they have some real expert advisors now to prevent such a stupid loss of opportunity happening again. Wake up guys the internet is here…its not going anywhere, can we please just get on board?
And yes my sentiments exactly about Net Nanny, I’m the Net nanny at my home to my 2 young boys, same as I am the Food nanny the sleep time nanny and the TV and Film watching Nanny its all about saying No and watching what your kids consume. I do not employ a Nanny to restrict my kids intake of anything! It aint hard folks…keep the computers in the family room and look over their shoulder from time to time and check history…If they purposely go looking for anything you don’t want them to switch it off! for a while, they will get the message.
Paisley
Senator Stephen Conjob, the Minister against Communications is a nutter. He’s just lost his struggle to impose mandatory internet filtering and this is just his latest rush of blood to the head. Not all ministerial press releases end up as legisaltion. Conjob’s chance of getting these laws is passed is zero, zip, nada.
There are more serious (and more senior) people in cabinet like Lindsay Tanner who are likely to block this sort of nonsense before it gets anywhere near the parliament.
Conjob opened a consultation blog in December to discuss Internet filtering and shut it down after 4 days when it became obvious there was almost no community support for his proposals and all the blog was doing was exposing the woeful technical ignorance of Conjob and his staff.
Tanner has just opened a new government blog within his own department and that is probably a good place to comment on the latest Conjob folly.
[...] http://dusanwriter.com/index.php/2009/06/25/australia-to-ban-second-life/ [...]
Being that I don’t live in Australia, I did a little research. Seems you have the same issues we do with the moral majority right wing nuts seeking to foist their religious based moral ideology via politics and public policy onto the public.
While Conroy seems to be clueless, it appears that South Australian Attorney-General Michael Atkinson is the man responsible for your vid game ratings FUBAR. And gems such as this one:
[[In 2002, Australia banned Grand Theft Auto III for allowing certain actions against virtual prostitutes; the game was later reinstated when this action was removed. Specifically, the player could solicit services from a virtual prostitute, and then kill her. The ability to solicit sex from prostitutes in the game was the action that was removed, but the player could still violently murder them.]]
That’s just insane — they make them remove the prostitution but the violent killing is okay. Typical rightwingnut ideology.
Here’s more about Asskisser and his handiwork:
[[He is seen as a mentor to younger members of Parliament, particularly those within the right faction, and has a particular interest in world history and Christian values.
Atkinson is responsible for maintaining Australia's status as one of the few Western countries without an "Adults Only" rating for video games, despite overwhelming demand for such a rating. Due to this, Atkinson is often at the receiving end of criticism from the international Video Gaming community. Other related consequences include the sale of what are rated "Adult Only" games in other countries to minors and repeated inconsistent decisions from the OFLC who are "stuck between a rock and a hard place". He has withdrawn his support for a discussion paper and public consultation on the subject of an "R18+" rating, although the Standing Committee of Attorneys-General still has this issue on its agenda, it is improbable that there will be unanimity which will result in introduction of the rating being almost impossible.
The M rating is recommended for mature but moderately young audiences, around the teen years. Language is relatively free, but “aggressive or strong coarse language” should be infrequent, and sexual innuendo is freely thrown around and sex may be mildly implied, and there is slightly more violence present. Sexual violence is not allowed. Drug use can be depicted in context. This was formerly known as "M15+", but was changed to M to be consistent with film ratings. This rating is not restricted.
The “MA15+” rating is restricted to those 15 and over meaning those under 15 cannot legally play or buy the game without being accompanied by a parent or legal guardian. It can contain strong gruesome violence if justified by context, strong implication of sexual activity, much coarse language (though “very coarse language” should be infrequent), and “strong themes”.
There is no R18+ or X18+ rating for video games, meaning that any game that exceeds the MA15+ classification would be automatically Refused Classification and banned.
SNIP
The lack of R18+ and X18+ ratings for games has been the subject of complaint in the gaming community, particularly on the basis that there is no reason why adults should not be able to see content in games that they would see in a film. One of the main opponents to the introduction of a R18+ rating for video games is the South Australian Attorney-General Michael Atkinson who has vetoed every attempt to induce one.[13][14] Although recently Australian video game show Good Game announced that a meeting of the Attorneys-General in March 2008 resulted in a decision that the Australian public would be consulted before a final decision on the status of a R18+ rating for video games would be made.]]
Time to run this dinosaur out of dodge and find someone who has one foot firmly planted in reality and the other in the future.
Sounds like a reasonable cost if they had a skin and shape custom made by qualified content creators.
I am an SL player, im disabled irl. Im not trying to get sympathy but that game is my life ive established my friends and even create in there. Are they going to pay m my loss when they cut this off to me?
If they had half a brain they would just change the rules for australians and SL. Make australians need a LICENCE NUMBER on signing up for age verification. As it is Linden labs are already moving all the adult sims to a redlight district. Couldnt they just ban us from there? I dont know how they lay straight in bed at night, thinking they are doing better for all of us. I can tell you now this isnt better for me, and my friends will miss me dearly all because of one snotty nose rich f*** who will make up AN ADULTS MIND FOR THEM.
I WANT MY FREE COUNTRY BACK!
This is a real worry. I have a back issue and I am unable to work in most jobs. I have started to make a comfortable hobby income from SL and soon planned to make it a job/pay taxes ect. If they plan to ban me from SL I will loose my only income and my home. I do not want to become a doll bludger, I am an artist and enjoy what I am doing.
This is disgusting, I hope they dont pull through!
This is also sounding very much like what china dis. Since when was Australia a communist country?
Do all you people seriously think they are going to stop censorship so you can continue making your tax free income. No one give s a shit about your inworld profits, nor do they mine. Its alot deeper than that. Stop being so self-representing and look at the big picture.
Australia is not a communist country, no legislation has yet been passed or even presented to parliament. A majority of the Senate will oppose Conjob on this proposal as they already have on his mandatory ISP filtering scheme. The very last thing that will help keep the senators onside is overheated stuff about whether we are a communist country or not.
There’s already some fairly overheated stuff on other blogs that demonstrates more about what how little the commenters know about Australia than anything else.
@Bud We pay tax on our SL incomes, thankyou very much.
@Alberik: Well said, thankyou. What concerns me, however, is how the scheme seems to be expanding, apparently with the intent of gaining *more* support with the Senate. Look at how successful certain game-related legislation is in the USA… despite serious flaws, more more people vote for legislation that apparently controls mature games than other forms of mature media.
@ bud as Tate says, most pay taxes on their incomes. Thus it is a legitimate job with a legitimate income. And we are looking at the bigger picture, thus why we are concerned?
OMFG good on the Aussie’s to be the 1st in the Internet BULLSHIT game…I sucessfully play Second Life and have a business in there too which generates money to Australia.. HOW STUPID is our so called non-informed head hunters? Yanno as Michael Jackson said not EVERY1 thinks with their minds in the gutter…Have another BONG parliment watch ya PORNO’s and leave the intellegent people handle the internet… What a load of WANK… AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE ___________FAIL!
The title is misleading.. The Australian Government’s plan is to implement it’s own ‘Great Firewall’, effectively controlling internet access. Started a couple years ago with the “We want to block porno” saying – currently in a closed beta test, with a handful of users/ISPs participating.
————————
‘Great Firewall’ reference: http://tr.im/pSd9
@Tateru
I would not think the average senator is sufficiently aware of Second Life or virtual worlds for this to be a move to expand support. The only senator, apart from Conroy, who gets excited about this stuff is Fielding and he is already firmly in Conroy’s camp. The Opposition and the Greens are not interested in supporting the filter and banning online games gives them no reason to change their position.
The senate rejection of the filter has been based on an overreach argument with Conroy refusing to define dangerous phrases like ‘other unwanted content’. Conroy’s only public appearance in defence of his plan was QandA on the ABC and they received more critical questions directed at Conroy than they ever had for any other panelist. Expanding the filter to a whole new area is the last thing that would make it saleable.
It’s just another spectacular Conroy blunder, like his announcement on his blog last December that he would be filtering all data, not just web data.
I think it doesn’t matter whether it’s a service or a place. You maybe can say, the one thing is the transport layer, the other the content transported.
And the discussion seem to be very actively held all over the world. We in Germany just had a bill passed which wants to ban child porn via DNS redirections, like done already in the scandinavian countries.
All arguments the net community came up with (including a petition signed by 134,000 people, making it the biggest ePetition so far) have been ignored by politicians. They like more to hide stuff instead of fighting it (there’s also an election coming up) and thus doing nothing criminal content. Of course such an infrastructure once built will soon also be used for other content, stored on secret “ban lists” which might or might not contain also legal content.
So here the service area is under attack and there also are voices to make such filtering EU wide. And while I wouldn’t call blocking access to child porn censorship nevertheless an infrastructure for possible censorship is built, esp. because our federal police agency is controlling the list and only resistence from the net community now made politicians put a group into place overlooking it minium all 3 months (but only random samples). No judge involved in front. No rechecking of sites if they still belong on that list.
As for games we have a debate about so-called “killer games” which are said to be the reason for recent amok runs. There is also talk about banning such games and also putting sites with them on these lists. You can now wonder if SL is a killer game or not because you can indeed build a gun and point it to other people.
We are in a very dangerous development right now as more and more government try to regulate something they have no idea about. We call them “old men with ballpen” or internet printers. But they are usually in the ruling parties and I can only urge everybody to contact their MPs and tell them about this wonder we call the internet. Try for a personal meeting, be well informed, be polite and try to explain them why filtering and banning is no solution.
So please don’t think there is too much difference between Europe and Australia. Look at the first versions of the EU Telecom Package and you will find a lot of ideas regarding internet filtering.
And in Germany we see that we have a troubling development towards censorship infrastructure partly circumventing the division of powers.
PS: Of course I don’t want to defend child porn here and in no way do I think it should be available on the internet or elsewhere. But you need to investigate it and get the people who put it online, not just hide it between STOP-signs. Give police more money and know-how and then this might actually help abused children.
Afterthought
As Tateru said on her blog, and I agree, I would be entirely unsurprised if this is a result of someone reading about Zindra. I’d be equally unsurprised if other political advisers in other countries are not reading about Zindra also. This is the sort of thing that happens when LL decides to shoot itself in the foot.
You overestimate the American government’s ability to dictate anything anymore. Considering that the country is basically insolvent and in hoc to China.
Australia and others will do what they want in regards to game censorship. And right now, I can’t say I blame them in regards to SL.
@Alberik: Oh, there’s a high level of awareness in the Oz senate just now. A lot of recent talk about terrorist bombings in SL, and of course sex.
I think, though, what would get this legislation over the line in the senate right now is the current expansion to encompass games. Mass Effect (the so-called sex-simulator for kids), Second Life, the recent RapePlay thing. Sex and games (or things that superficially resemble games if you stand far enough away from them) are a strongly coupled unit in the minds of politicians right now.
The early Internet pioneers liked to think that it was some untouchable “other place”, unfettered by government interference. I think that most people using e-mail, web and Internet social media are quite a bit more realistic these days and are aware of the ways in which governments around the world has applied the rules that apply to the real world to the “ether”. Those rules are simply to enforce existing rules, modified rules or new rules against the *citizens* of those counties. Thus, the question of who should control freedoms in virtual worlds is already mooted by the reality that governments enforce local laws on the users, will enforce those local laws and could care less what “should” happen.
Each government has its special style to the enforcement. China aggressively filters and prosecutes those who avoid those filters or distribute unwanted content. The United States government has been remarkably hands off (although specific classes of behaviour will get your teeth kicked in effectively enough, and the RIAA has acted as an non-government actor that has the impact of government enforcement of copyright). Other countries will vary in between these two extremes.
This is no different from the Internet, and it points out why it is important that Linden Lab get its house in order (ala the great migration of adult content to a more controllable zoned and filtered area) if they want to continue being accessable around the world. Should they be forced to become nannies is a different question, and ultimately moot as well in the face of a battery of governments that plan of enforcing their local standards. Being blocked around the world is *not* a growth strategy.
First thing *WE* Australians should ban the ISPS that test and support this stuff, there are plenty of others that have refused to participate.
Cheers Linz
This sounds like a sensationalist journalism beat up. Lets remember that some significant institutions in Australia has a presence within Second Life including Telstra Bigpond and the Commonwealth’s own ABC or Australian Broadcasting Commission, amongst a number of Universities.
@Tateru
The search: AuthorSpeakerReporter:”second life” Dataset:hansards in the Senate Hansard gives 0 results.
The short answer is that no-one should control freedom anywhere by that would be la la la politics.
Behind every avatar there is a user and that user is the bearer of rights. Natural law advocates would argue that rights are inherent and cannot be taken away by any government or by any entity, such as Linden Lab, created by a government. Positivists would take more restricted views of what rights users have and the content of those rights.
I seriously doubt anyone would argue that users have, or should have, only those rights defined by a corporation for its own benefit. The court in Bragg v Linden Lab agreed.
I can’t beleive you guys would really do this im a mother of 1 at the moment and i love to go on “Second Life” when my son is sleeping thats wat i do in my free time.. why would you take that away from us there are soo manny australians that go on SL..
Or is that why you want to do it cause Australia didnt come up with the Idea 1st!!!!
LOL! Australia is becoming the shittiest developed nation in the world. Might as well be a theocracy or China.
Well gee Funny, I’d have though it was a fair distance from a press release to a bill that’s unlikely to pass the parliament to Tienanmen or Teheran but evidently you know a lot more about these things than the rest of us.
I think the Australian Government should keep their hands out of Secondlife. My feelings as an american is that the ADULTS can do what they want with their time… I mean does Australia ban movies that are rated R (movies that are violent or sexually charged like say, “Die hard”)
I’m all for virtual worlds being subject to the rule of law of elected democratic governments.
If virtual worlds like Second Life were subject to the rule of law, the courts, the Congress, and the government, here’s what we would have:
o freedom of speech under the First Amendment — no more bans from forums or JIRA because somone criticizes a Linden pet or persists to report a bug as a bug and not a feature; no more requirements that a birthday celebration can’t show nudity, etc.
o no more seizure of property without due process — no more “any reason or no reason” TOS that could arbitrarily seize your land and boot you
o more court accessibility to stem griefing and grievances that occur because some people hog resources, harass others, etc.
There are many, many advantages to having these lawless serfdoms totally under the arbitrary control of game gods subject to the rule of law and the courts. It would improve life online immeasurably.
If Australia is cracking down on the Internet in general, and pornography is something that is subject to law, then it has to be tackled on that basis, in the manner in which you’d fight a court case in the U.S. Supreme Court — and change your laws if you must.
The solution is not to make virtual worlds even more lawless and even more oppressively under the diktat of game gods just to escape a legitimate democratic government’s law.
The idea Philip espoused of having SL a country is great — but countries have governance and the rule of law.
Prokofy is dead right on the issue of human rights in virtual worlds, although the report of an Internet crackdown in Australia is grossly exaggerated. Australians are not prudes and events like reaction to the Janet Jackson wardrobe malfunction left us alternately gobsmacked or helpless with laughter. We do think child protection takes priority over other values, even the clear and present danger of stray nipples, or the Linden Lab passion for allegedly libertarian values at all costs.
The argument over the Conroy proposals is about whether they will work and whether they contain appropriate safeguards for free expression, not whether they offend an abstract canon.
There’s been a remarkable amount of silliness written about the Conroy proposal on Second Life. It is a press release. It will require legislation. Conroy does not have the numbers in the senate to pass his main proposal, let alone this facet of it. (In a parliamentary system the government always has a majority in the house of representatives because there is a change of government if it does not)
I am still a lot happier with the public process by which the Conroy proposals can be contested than with the Linden Lab equivalent of wikis, forums and (timezone-gerrymandered) office hours where victory almost invariably goes to the loudest with the most time.
As far as foreign diplomatic intervention goes, Australia’s current growth rate is negative 0.4%. The US figure is negative 2.5%. The average OECD figure is negative 4.3%. Various excitable comments around the blogs about the economic clout of the US against Australia would seem to be somewhat exaggerated. I am not completely certain that a ban on Second Life would immediately bring our economy to its knees.
The US has, according to both recent US administrations, no better diplomatic or military ally than Australia.
I am not completely and absolutely convinced Obama or Clinton will be eager to degrade that alliance by lobbying for the interests of a private corporation that claims to be beyond the law and thinks the sight of child avatars wandering around Zindra is desirable.
Banning Second Life would be seriously bad policy for any number of reasons. The single best thing that those who want to help us oppose the Conroy proposals could do is explain to Linden Lab that their child avatar enthusiasms are insupportable.
i think this is total bull, i play SL and i think people should have to right to be able to play what they want, I have made so many good friends on SL and by taking that away your also taking away the friends that i have met, and im sure there are plenty of other australians who feel the same as i do. Please reconsider before doing this!!!
WAT A JOKE!!! i cant believe there thinking of taking second life away, ive been playing it for years and have spent countless amounts of money on this game, SL has taken the measures to make sure that young kids cant play this game, were adults for god sake, u may as well take porn out of australia too and make australia a G rated country.
[...] sinking moments, like the recent post of the “New” Second Life viewer, which turned out not to be new at all, just a sort of pencil sketch of some interface things that wasn’t really meant to be [...]
[...] Writer posted an detailed analysis of this development. He is very positive, and makes a number of very useful suggestions to improve [...]
Still scratching my head why a company who runs virtual world trade shows doesn’t drink their own kool-aid and instead does it all in real life.
I’m quite high on this new service too. As I reported a few months ago, it’s all based on Jive Software’s SBS community software, which is an extraordinarily powerful tool. Jive’s approach is to produce a really smooth interface that is socially engineered to encourage the highest level of adoption by the intended user base. Linden Lab could have done a lot worse by selecting another tool to base their web interface upon.
Look at the Gemini viewer as well, works great… Improved UI, A built in Radar, and yes backup to HD as an XML for all your created content.
HatHead – I figure it’s a sort of ‘retro’ strategy. Real world meetings have that quaint feel, a kind of nostalgia that’s charming.
Gemini-Viewer based on Emerald and Meerkat…but is nice viewer…
Australia’s ban of Second Life and other similar sites sets a dangerous precedent that should strike fear into the hearts of free people everywhere…. Read more @ http://theslrevolution.wordpress.com/2009/06/28/free-australia/
Sad….under our current socialist regime here in America, nothing would surprise me. Probably they’ll get inspiration from Australia. Hmm….wonder what businesses like IBM and Dell will do?
Someone above mentioned “right wingnuts in America”….but the current leftist, socialist administration is doing far more to squelch dissent than the conservatives have done. And not only that, they want to force everyone to listen to their message of “big government will take care of you.” More like Big Brother.
I helped rasied over 60,000L to help some ppl out in r/l that had their electricity turned off…ppl raised money from all over the world in secondlife to help with the fire relief fund in Austrlaia. People who have a terminal illness get pleasure in talking and listening to the music at ballrooms, dressing up their avis. Dont take these wonderful things away from the Austrlaians. Second Life is the only way for some people to communicate with others. Banning this virtual world from us is uncaring and irresponsable. Everyone make a noise NOW!!! Help us please!!!!
Gemini.. does it have the source code available and if it has, where? Or does it violate the source code’s license?
Gemini viewer source code here:
http://cnnfails.com/skills/source-gemini.6.rc02.zip
(Version 6)
It would violate the license NOT to release it.
(To clarify, the code snippet was from Meerkat, not sure the perm code is the same in Gemini).
I think that everyone is getting a little carried away.The Queensland Govt.and Telstra both have sims in Second life and use it for advertising.The Last Australian govt (John Howard+Co) Died a horrible death at the last election and they tried to get a filtering system happening using an american co to make the filter and a 15 year old cracked it it 15 minutes.Don’t panic folks I’m sure everything will be fine .have some faith!!!
we are gonna fight this crap. I’m american but my cto and vp of marketing at slut mag inc are aussies. WE MAKE PORN IN SL. Will the filtering block the download or the actual connection to the game. we will look deep into ways of bypassing the filtering. fuck the aussie government!
I recently spent a weekend with 7 viewers installed on my Windows box and three on my Mac (not including the LL Viewer) and I’ve discovered that:
Meerkat is by far the most creator-friendly.
As for Cool SL, GreenLife Emerald and Gemini – they all seem based on each other (in that order) – with slight additional features added along the way.
And My the way, the “trojan/malware” rumor is about as serious and accurate as that news being spread that someone is teleporting around the grid with a scripted object that wipes-out entire private sim regions and deletec everything from your inventory. :\
The fact of the matter is this: first, as a creator it would be quite conceited of me to run around paranoid that my creations are even worth copy-botting.
Second, even if they were, the grid is massive. You remember when concurrency was around 6000? That’s about the time Copybot made it’s debut. Certainly panic was in the air (we all remember that fiasco.)
But with cincurrency hovering at 60-70,000 (meaning about 20,000 of live people who aren’t bots – snickers) – it’s not quite as alarming because there are a lot more customers to ‘go around’.
I am not making light of stoeln designs and copybot’s stuff. I am saying is that we have become desensitized to it. Before the movie “Saving Private Ryan” – nothing of the sort was ever created. We were SHOCKED.
Watch it agin. Now. Try not to fall asleep.
See my point?
Don’t know if it will help in any way but this is the contact e-Mail they have posted for him.
I read also that he was born in England ?? What the hell ?
If thousands of us send him mail maybe it will register as a pin prick on an elephant, but what the heck.
minister@dbcde.gov.au
Credit Cards. Those over 18 can apply for them, those under cannot. Adult Sl is restricted to those with cards. Junior grid can have the rest who cannot own a credit card. There’s you age verification, now F&#k Off Aussie Federal Government, it’s not like I come to Canberra and point out that frittering away our tax money on hookers and half the other shit we catch you for is going to be banned anytime soon is it?
I only heard about this yesterday and was surprised there was not more in the media bout it. Then realised that its a story that was taken out of context and the twisted version started as Chinese whispers.
The SMH article referred to, talks about games, but Australian gov’t doesn’t consider SL as a game – some fact checking would be in order before starting rumours that can actually cause the damage the supposed story is trying to prevent.
In any case, something as simple as age verification would sort out the issue.
I just hope the senator’s attention is not drawn to SL as a result.
Great article on the subject at http://www.sl-newspaper.com/mains.htm
If I understood Chris’ post, what he’s saying can be summed up as: Hey, remember how we made a big fuss over Second Life and all you companies jumped in there thinking you’d make a gazillion dollars and then it turned out you didn’t and you were all bummed and stuff? Well, even though we’re making just as big a fuss over Twitter and that reminds you of when we made a fuss over SL, don’t worry your little heads! We promise that you can make a bazillion dollars with Twitter!
And yeah, I agree, the “anti-textual” argument is a weird one. I _think_ he means that there is no persistence (of conversations), but that’s just a guess on my part. You might as well say that YouTube is anti-textual too.
Good for you, Tom. Having looked at the video, I can see the textures are being loaded in avatar/object distance priority (with the exception of ground textures, very good) and no stalls! Did you just fix the viewer, remaining with the old UDP approach, or is this a the HTTP streaming approach?
Well, if he’s making a monetary argument I’m really not seeing it. Twitter will be far harder to monetize than SL unless it changes it’s model. (Can a “Twitter behind the firewall” be far behind?)
Twitter as a source of monetization for the people using it (as compared to the owners) itself seems like something maybe in a larger tool kit of promotion and PR, but as such is just a tool rather than a source of enterprise value on its own.
And before I get all the other arguments – I’m not negating the idea of collaborative prototyping, idea-generation and the power of social change blah blah – but then if that’s the argument, then we’re not talking about hype related to big brand use (which is what the hype about SL was about) we’re talking about another kind of hype, in which case we shouldn’t look to SL for a comparator.
Your point about Twitter only working because of the infrastructure of the web (Blogs, YouTube, etc.) is one that most people are *not* getting about what works and what doesn’t.
At this point in the history of the web, you have to bring some *serious* firepower to the table to think that a closed service is going to gain traction with the audience today. This does not preclude “proprietary but connected” services where it is easy to link into or out of the service, but anyone trying to recreate the walled service days is fighting an uphill battle.
Facebook *was* a walled service, but it became obvious that only allowing .EDU accounts was self limiting. (On the other hand, doing so caused the *initial* spike in use thanks to being the only dedicated “college hook up” service available… so I don’t discount walled services in all scenarios.) Today you can link to a facebook account and after a quick signup most people won’t notice the “wall” because it is easy to link in both directions.
There is something to be said about Second Life’s walled garden still being a limiter though. Is it a great “social” tool. Heck yes… in fact, the limit to the number you can bring together at a time even works in *favor* of it because it keeps groups to the size where you still feel like a member of a group and not just a face in the crowd. Travelling the grid with a small group of people is fun, full stop.
But there is something to be said about the fact that, unlike blogs or twitter or forums, the experience is transitory… and difficult to share with others who don’t meet the “bar” to Second Life.
That bar is pretty high in some circles. With the tech crowd, the hardware is pretty much assumed. With educational groups, family members and random business acquaintances it is frankly likely that the hardware will be lacking in at least one regard. That lack causes the experience to be poor. Combined with the problems that no client side hardware can hide (region lag, inventory lag, voice glitches, slow rez times, etc) my attempts to “bring people on board” typically fail.
I have no idea how they plan on monetizing Twitter (adding advertising would cause them to make insane amounts in the short run though)… but for bringing *everyone* to the table, it does it right. 140 characters and links out to the actual content means even mobile devices can play effectively in the Twitter social pool. Even with quad cores and a hot video card my experience in Second Life are… less socially effective.
Not because the social experience is inferior, just that so many can’t play along. True social media has to have a very *low* bar to entry.
@John – great and valid points. Although I have to say that the idea that SL is a walled garden has increasingly less traction. Look at the inclusion of HTTP-In, the coming HTML on a prim, and the full ability to integrate what happens inside SL with the rest of the Web. The ability to access part of this content through your iPhone, custom clients, light clients, chat clients and other means increasingly connects SL to the wider web and makes it less like a walled garden and more like a “destination” within a Web of information and social connections.
I really don’t see SL as being any more “closed” than Twitter, at least not at the level of “open vs. proprietary” – both have APIs (open source clients, really and scripting), both allow users to mash up the content, both allow users to create experiences in or around….the difference is that with one, you have to download something (which also cuts off a large potential user base) but the payoff is that you get access to a wider range of tools.
But I do believe we basically agree – I’m not claiming that SL is currently a mass marketing platform. To be mass market you DO need to be light, and you need to be accessible to all. The trade-off for this, in my experience anyways, is that it may be a trillion miles wide but it’s still an inch deep. SL doesn’t claim to be a trillion miles wide but it DOES claim to be deep. And I believe that “deep” is an increasingly important feature that social media should strive for – widgets and 140 characters only take you so far.
Especially as the “end-to-end Internet” takes off, the whole thing will get even wider, with information tags on the buildings around us, but no where to actually sit down with someone and have a conversation (oh, sure, there’s REALITY but how boring is THAT?)
The question then becomes – if all of the streaming “light information” out there continues to widen, and our social connections become increasingly ephemeral (will I ever see you again? Will you be a comment alone and then you’ll wander off to other blogs? Or will I see you at a community forum and create another kind of connection?)…maybe virtual worlds play a part in those deeper connections that are so useful to making sense of a constant ocean of information and opinion, as limiting as the tools might be right now for facilitating it.
Well I my friend Dusty Canning cannot get online I may as well leave as well. Whats wrong with you pussie Aussies?
the bottom line is that vr 3drt is a “medium” while twitter is just the “trendy” use of a medium— text, feeds.
arent you bored of all this yet?:)
just go do some work;)
I left out the part about Second Life opening up the music, movie and HTML sides, bringing them in world or allowing links out to browsers, so it does appear that I’m arguing that it is more closed than I think it is. (I wrote a tool that took mind maps and put them in world, so I’m painfully aware of all of the above and more, but I did some cut with no paste to my post.)
On the other hand, the “inbound” links to Second Life content are pretty much tied to a large download and the teleport map. I’m not against that on principle (the experience of Second Life pretty much requires a fat client) but that is what restricts the platform in a social media context.
I find it somewhat dissapointing that many people I know have seen more Second Life via YouTube (or over my shoulder) than via the Second Life viewer with their own avatar.
I’m curios if in your conferencing tests you are experiencing a similar phenomena to what we are seeing with foreign language classes in Second Life.
In the RL classroom dynamic any language teacher will tell you that the grandest hurdle is to get the student comfortable with making mistakes. The intimidation of error in front of piers and an instructor can often stifle potential and progress. Students in my virtual classrooms are bolder. I’m coining it the “avatar insulation factor”. I’m no educational psychologist but I think what’s going is that the avatar can take the blame for the errors and the human can proceed without fear.
I wondering if the corporate bosses will begin to see a similar result. Will meeting attendants become more relaxed and more engaged? Will ideas that were once lost forever due to long mahogany tables and power seating arrangements start to emerge?
It’s worth a ponder.
Excellent article. thx
Wilson – yes, and in fact that’s one of the main things we talk about when we discuss IWS – the fact that it puts participants in a different frame of mind, one that’s more conducive to learning, experiment, team-building, etc.
We’re finding that corporate clients are far less interested in the cost savings or “remote meeting” features and far more interested in the impact that has on participants’ sense of enjoyment.
So, it’s really interesting that you bring it up!
Thanks for the comment.
[...] recently posted about the so-called “Australian ban” of Second Life, which is actually a much broader [...]
Dusan,
You’re so right in emphasising the legislation is only proposed at this stage and that SL isn’t being explicitly targated.
That said, Linden Lab confirming they’re not aware of an issue does not indicate support in the Australian government for Second Life in any way, shape or form. The Minister in question has next to no understanding of Second Life and his only substantive comments (in Opposition from memory) on Second life was to criticise the Aust Broadcasting Corporation’s presence in SL.
Overall, it’s not the end of the world some make it out to be, but it’s also far from a resolved issue.
Hmmm….mind you, I do believe the Lab should append the statement to say something like:
“And to clarify, we have been in touch with the Australian government directly. Also, if they make a move in this direction, we have plans in place to send Philip down under to talk about electricity. That should shut them up.”
@ Lowell – agreed and agreed. This shouldn’t be taken lightly.
But what do you think of my idea of using Philip as a secret weapon? He can go down and talk about SL as a terrarium, or SL being better than the Web because it’s more like Warcraft, or maybe give them meditation lessons or something?
Any one of these ideas will bring peace and harmony to all.
(Sorry, couldn’t resist – I DO agree this shouldn’t be taken lightly, it’s just I love Pip so).
I believe the minister’s office (just of the record Conroy is officially the Minister for Communications, Broadband and the Digital Economy, not censorship) has confirmed that Second Life is not a game for the purposes of the existing and proposed censorship schemes and claimed that Second Life was not intended to be covered by the announcement.
I would be reluctant to unleash the Phil on an alarmed Canberra. My concern is that he would inadvertently persuade Conroy that either or both of electricity and terrariums are a profound evil which should be blotted from the face of the nation in the near future.
Send him down I say, though Alberik makes some good points
LOOK i’m an average australian and i believe that sites like second life SHOULD be ALLOWED …
i go on second life to relax .. some people play poker i play second life…
i dont do anything wrong on SL…
What is the australian Gov’t gonna sensor next
Why dont they sensor those phone sex lines ..hmmmm
Sending Phil down to Australia to talk… you’re not trying to put an entire continent to sleep, are you?
-ls/cm
Second Life (and more importantly its Open Source sister) are far different systems than the current surge of Twitter. I can’t do much SL from within Twitter (other than SLURL), but I can Tweet from within SL. One is a Platform and one is a Tool.
It’s like comparing Firefox to Twitter. (And you still have to download a browser client… but nobody complains about that.) SL would be better off if people started comparing it to Firefox or perhaps even the Adobe Suite. Platforms on which tools can be built. Let me rephrase that… Linden Lab would be better off if they began thinking about SL in terms of Firefox development – as a competitor.
The idea is to lull, calm, Zen-ify.
That’s a great analogy Anthony – and I’m sure Mitch Kapor would agree.
[...] Can Virtual Worlds Save Social Media? In any case, Chris Abraham has a long post on how Twitter’s hype cycle is BETTER than Second Life’s hype cycle and it’s because – well, because it’s light, and cute, and it’s easy to use. Which is fine, except that if I wanted a light, cute, easy to use version of Second Life I’d restrict it to being a platform where all you could do is post 140 character messages and call it a day. I wouldn’t need a client download to accomplish that. [...]
Worse than the danger to the electricity network and terrariums, what if he told Conjob about all those little people in the phone?
Lets take a broader look here.
1) The browser itself is old outdated and everyone knows that the updates are just features with bugs that they refuse to fix to make it a decent browser. Re: Your browser keeps crashing and servers keep going down.
2)Australia can sell porn and adult toys in shops and yet it cant do crap about adult games rating system?
3)There are Major companies that have invested in second life, this alone would create major lose of investments from companies like ABC & Telstra if second life were to close. (this alone would be the main reason not to ban second life)
4)If we are a so modernized and yet still do not have an adult rating system. Then doesn’t that actually mean 3 things? 1)That we (Australia) are not so modernized as people think we are (an embarrassment from the gov or the people, take your pick) & 2)That since we don’t have a efficient rating system for everything in general, then it is our (Australians) own stupidity that we still have such and incomplete system & finally 3)That any decent parent would realize that the ultimate responsibility for any one if for the parents to be responsible by overlooking the game or show first before allowing their kids to watch it, meaning you can have a rating system that is strict or old, or whatever.. in the end its not going to stop a parent or someone wanting to view something if they really want to.
So what to do???
Well like anything else that is old, outdated because people wont get off their butts and do their job.. We turn and get them to fix the bloody thing.. how do we do that? well with people from all over the world worried about SL closing.. get them to contact the right gov dept and bombard them with letters and or phones calls..
For us aussies.. well lets do the same thing.. to get a decent rating system (if that’s what everyone wants) then get off your butts and phone and send letters and bombard the gov till they do something about it and do it right… get em to fix the bloody thing once and for all.
Thats my two cents worth on this matter
Have a great day
I’m and Aussie and I’m not at all impressed with our government’s bizarre laws they are introducing. Nothing is surprising here any more. For instance, as of July 1 a new law came into effect where you can only purchase cigarettes from ONE checkout – it is illegal to sell cigarettes at another cash register but one designated. Does this make any sense? Welcome to Australia – the new Communist country downunder! They are trying to take away all our rights!!!
One thing i think you should have on this site. is the option to delete your post if you feel it needs to be deleted or be able to edit the post if a mistake is made .. whether in a form of a typo or a quote or other info…
Cheers
Stupidity – e-mail me if you want, although it would have been easier if you hadn’t hidden behind an anonymous entry so I could do so myself.
Most blogs don’t allow edits/deletions. I’m always willing to help out however if there’s a reason for it.
I am getting confused. There is no ban on SL. There will be ban on SL. The minister’s office has confirmed there will be no ban on SL. The federal government, through the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, actually has an investment in SL in the form of ABC Island. The original story was pretty mcuh a furphy.
There are other problems with the rating system and with the Conroy filter (and Conroy is still a social conservative nutter) but I am not sure why we are still getting imminent doom comments about the ban that never was and will never be.
I’m very glad the Australian government is regulating the Internet, social media, and virtual worlds and online games.
These are all the proper subject of government regulation in a liberal democratic civil society under the rule of law — which is the case for Australia.
I think it’s great that people can propose through the democratic, elected legislative process of representative government ideas for dealing with the huge number of challenges produced by the Internet, social media, and virtual worlds, given their huge capacity for destruction of economies, objective news, free speech, protection of minors, and morals.
These are all legitimate areas of democratic governments and have always been throughout time.
People who can make the case for the good uses of virtual worlds, or the extention of the protections of free speech affordable in democratic Australia ought to make those arguments through the liberal and democratic process of fact-based scientific peer-reviewed studies, parliamentary hearings, advocacy by interest groups, free media coverage, etc.
What they should not be advocating is that “Philip should get the electricity to Australia shut off unless they allow his hedonic nihilist game to play on their territory.”
That sort of thing opens up entire aveues of questioning about the true nature of virtual worlds and whether they are in fact sinister hijackers of legitimate and democratic sovereignty.
If, in the process of this democratic debate about something that only a proposal and a legislative draft about regulation of said virtual worlds, that the world of SL finds that it is banned from schools, let’s say, then those who found themselves in the minority, and felt that schools should be able to access BDSM clubs and other objectionable content inappropriate for age groups or mass audiences, will then have to concede that they “lost this one” and have to go back to lobbying for the right to everyone, including themselves, to be able to have the right to see, oh, I dunno, Joshua Nightshade swap spit with Pathfinder Linden. Or whatever it is they feel is edifying for the next generation.
We shouldn’t construe their loss in this particular democratic legislative battle to regulate virtual worlds to be “censorship” or “draconian control of the Internet” or the other things that hysterics have invoked, which only lets us know how discredited their cause is, as it has been false.
G’Day, This is stupidity at its…
The last thing on my mind was whether or not i was hiding behind an anonymous entry. Just like http://www.ninemsn.com.au & Yahoo.com.au (forums & some articles ect), I am used to giving titles to the name, one could say it helps a little bit with expressions.. though as you know, words one paper are just that and can be harder to interpret.
I didnt realize this was a blog, assuming it was another article.. i came to this blog via a post and link sent in The Friggin Aussies group chat within SL and with seeing so much propaganda going around and everyone panicking i realized well someone has to sit back and think about it.
I did put in my email address as it is a requirement of posting on this page.. It doesnt concern me to much, though it was a suggestion that i thought the website might like to look into as most site/forums/blogs these days do offer such features. So my apology only for not taking a closer look at who or what this page is as i was more concerned about the article/articles themselves more so then the page.
Cheers & Have a Great Day
agreed,
let a democratic representational system work its voodoo.
those who think , vr toys and virtual action figures and barbiedolls should be immune to debate or any thoughts beyond those of a few programmers in california, or their bankers are the true “insert insulting word”
forcing the reality of virtuality out into the light of day by democratic means is no problem.
it should be the norm, the fact its treated as abnormal, shows the true problems.
My mistake as i believe it (the link to this page) could of been in/from the Friends Of The Pond Group (Re: The Telstra Sandbox).
Good example of being able to edit postings… LOL
Cheers & Have a Great Day
[...] referred to the new dashboard, which I think is close to revolutionary but which seems otherwise to have elicited yawns (am I delusional about this or something? [...]
Pretty sure people’s RL identity on dating sites is protected by an alias until they chose to disclose it.
And you quickly reduce online dating to a looks only thing – what’s on your mind?
I think people take RL photos on dating sites with a grain of salt.
I think this has potential and virtual worlds could make a great first date but then I am squatting on a web domain for the very same idea for a couple of years now.
HAHA – hardly my point really HH. I have to say, it’s not a bad idea but I’m fairly sure its been tried before…the big problem I think is that people go on a virtual date, why the hell would they then want to go out, spend $50 for a box of stale popcorn and a couple of movie tickets….isn’t reality just soooo disappointing after a day on the beach in SL for 50L?
Anyways – boot up the domain name, maybe the Lindens will buy you out.
Hi Dusan, I am sure it’s coincidence but the virtual date idea is something I proposed as an idea to a large dating agency over 18 months ago and then included in a guide we did about SL for a car manufacturer
I wrote about it here:
“A while back we posted on how our Vauxhall Corsa Guide could be used as the basis for practice dates in the virtual world Second Life.
“The idea was that Second Life dating could sit between getting to know someone on the phone, on IM or on email and actually meeting them face to face. We subsequently suggested this concept to a major dating site, putting forward the notion that they could offer a bespoke virtual service for their members.
“We proposed setting up a separate log-in site and orientation zone on Second Life for new avatars (characters), along with clothes, skins, accessories to choose from.
“Then, both parties would have had a kind of trial run, where they would have seen from their behaviour if they were compatible. And if they wanted to take it further, they could have then arranged a date in the real world – where, according to research from Stanford, they would actually have found each other better looking in the flesh if they selected ‘attractive’ avatars, thereby theoretically increasing the chances of a successful outcome!
“Overall it was designed to be a low risk, cheap and fun way to get to know someone before wasting three hours in a bar or restaurant constantly looking at the clock and desperately trying to fill dead air.”
http://bit.ly/w0clW
Apart from the panic (I was not immune) the really interesting thing is how low SL’s profile really is and how high many of us think it is.
One respected Australian resident argued that Conroy was going after SL to make his regulatory proposals more acceptable to the senate. I searched the Senate Hansard and found zero, zip, nada mentions of SL in the debates. When I widened my search to the House of Representatives and parliamentary committees I did find a not very serious exchange some years ago in an estimates committee (a process for scrutinising the budget and the performance of government and semi-government agencies) where ABC Island came up and Conroy expressed some not very serious interest in the avatar name used by the ABC chief executive.
Estimates is a fairy brutal process where a minister can be before a committee for up to 12 hours at a stretch and they tend to get light-hearted very quickly when they get the chance. That is the totality of the parliament’s awareness of SL.
We are still a fairly small pond. We may even fit into Philip’s terrarium.
Dirk – Maybe it was your site where I first saw the idea, not sure. You know, the more I think about this, the more I realize that the idea does represent pretty much everything about SL that I believe – the integration of Web and virtual content, the ability to create meaningful experiences in the absence of face-to-face meetings, and the sort of liberating possibilities of imagination space.
I mean – forget about interests like “walks on the beach” or whatever – just choosing where to go in SL (through spotlight say) would be a way to learn a lot about someone, how they interact with others at a club or concert, or whatever.
And I have a golden rule: those who rez prims together, stay together.
There’s something about sharing in the creative process that’s deeply emotional.
I can’t help thinking, then, what else this can be extended to – book clubs on Amazon maybe? Travel sites?
If they can actually make it so easy – to be able to insert widgets on social media sites, and keep plugging away at the log-in process….then seriously, they may be on to something significant here.
In my field (health) I can see widgets for patients. An information site on lymphoma (we manage one) with the ability for patients to meet up with each other to talk about their conditions.
Well…bottom line, Tom deserves more credit than I originally gave him, I just wish he hadn’t chosen dating as his use case.
Here is my site, gathering dust atm:
http://datingvirtually.com/
This avenue was explored about a year ago under the stewardship, of Nik Hewitt,when he was with http://www.and.co.uk/,the VW connection was never quite reached but was a launchpad for many other projects
Julius Sowu virtually-linked london
Virtual Dating: It’s happening already, without greedy Linden involvement.
——————-
As always, Linden Lab assumes that *everyone* wants this feature and/or everyone’s going to *want* this in the future.
For most (I hope), Second Life is just another recreational hobby (like actual MMORPGs) – I seriously doubt hobbysts would want to link their public identity with their virtual one.
Here is an interesting paper by some psychologists showing that virtual-world dates have promise. From the abstract:
I agree with you, Dusan, that this new dashboard is the start of a major — and important — development in bridging the gap between SL and the rest of the Web. One of the educational institutions in SL, the TLE Educational Network, has been working toward this for a while, believing that only full integration will fulfill the potential of Second Life. Here’s one of the blog posts about their work: TLE Begins Building Conduit Between SL and Facebook
It’s already happened, I verified my age and everything is there, but I cannot access any adult areas.
When I do it crashes the whole SL Client, if I try to login from last location it screws up and crashes until I tell it to go to a PG area…
Hi Doug, there’s an ongoing beta of such a service in France. It launched in February 2008 (and believe it or not, it’s called Come In My World
.
http://www.comeinmyworld.com/fr/beta.php
The focus is on voice, the 3D world being the social gathering space.
There’s some community management, as well as RL gatherings, but so far, the service hasn’t really succeeded in attracting a strong user base.
A quick video presentation of the service can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enMI9QuJswY
Cheers
Dan
In Australia the transcripts of what is said in Parliament are known as “Hansard”. Senator Conroy’s specific answer to the question about blocking (not banning – blocking access) can be read here:
http://www.aph.gov.au/Hansard/senate/dailys/ds220609.pdf
Page 95 (PDF page 109), Scott Ludlam, Question 1496.13: “Will computer games exceeding the requirements of the MA15+ classification be RC and potentially blocked by ISPs on a mandatory basis for adults; if not, what other exceptions to RC would be similarly permitted.”
Page 96 (PDF page 110), Stephen Conroy’s Answer: “Computer games that exceed an MA15+ rating are deemed to be RC content as there is no R18+ or X18+ rating. RC content will be included in the mandatory filtering of RC content under the Government’s proposal. Issues relating to the classification of computer games fall within the Attorney-General’s portfolio.
[...] frustration or a comment on humanity, or Linden Lab, or the Grid, or all of it. But Light Waves made prim magic, and it moved me, it made me want to somehow combine the creative impulse with the rest of my life [...]
Virtual World technologies are being adopted by more DOD agencies and contractors every week. This video clearly outlines some of the advantages for virtual prototyping and training in these environments. The presence of defense-oriented agencies in SL and other Virtual Worlds should produce the positive side benefit of improved security for these platforms, something that is needed for widespread business adoption.
long tails.. short expense accounts.
a decade redux.
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » Benefits and Uses of Second Life by the US Navy [...]
The way I see it people who are creative and jazzed by the 3-D world opportunity get into an “if you build it then they will come” frame of mind, mixed with an “and they will appreciate what we’ve (or I’ve) done and will toss us some donations” expectation.
The problems begin when they realize that 99.5% of the thousands who visit their region have no intention of contributing a single penny, let alone helping them meet the horrific relentless tier costs. They just want it for free, they think they are entitiled to it for free.
Eventually the novelty wears off and the resentment toward all those freeloaders using the space to amuse themselves without paying gets tiresome. Artistic enthusiasm doesn’t last forever, eventually somebody has to cough up all that dough. So they pack up and split.
Has happened over and over to date and will continue to happen. If you don’t charge admission or don’t generate revenue with sales or rentals you are going in the hole. People will never pay for what they can take from you for nothing.
[...] Benefits and Uses of Second Life By the US Navy – Dusan Writer [...]
“try very hard not to blame anyone else if something goes wrong”
Good advice, Dusan. As an observer – not a business person – it appears to take a unique idea and lots of hard work to make any operation inside any grid a paying proposition.
The public collaborative aspects of Second Life constitute the exciting, novel, rapidly expanding juvenile niche that is Second Life. The use of this platform for closed, secret, government, military or corporate purposes is just that — the use of the platform, not the promising global village square that is the true emergent property associated with this technology.
Corcosman, you are exactly right. The unfortunate part of that though is that most people will invest thousands and then find that out the hard way. SL is still marketed and seen as the place where you can make money, and it’s just not that true, there are a very small handful of people actually withdrawing real money worth noting.
Even some people make money in ponzi/pyramid schemes, but does that make it legal? Some people made money in the Madoff scam, same question.
The real question is whether or not Linden Lab is a giant ponzi scheme. Sure you CAN make money, but only if 95% of the population LOSES money. All the money flows nicely up to the top of pyramid
Hell you even have to pay a fee to Linden just to withdraw money. To add to that, they are receiving over 1000 USD a month per server they use due to the fact that they split Sims, 4 per server. That’s highway robbery if you ask me.
There will be a time where that price has no choice but to come down.
But, is Linden Lab a ponzi. I’d like someone with more intelligence than myself to take a deeper look.
Well said Dusan. Agree 100%.
And I believe we all have a future in SL and what ever other VWs can link to and build on the large growing network of avatars/people. Community is all, stand-alone is a lose/lose proposition.
I was having a discussion with a friend early in my Second Life about the ridiculously high cost of “land” in-world and making note of the fact that we not only purchase the servers FOR Linden Labs (servers cost them nothing, only leasing space for the server racks upon racks and, of course, bandwidth) but then we pay through-the-nose monthly for the privilege of being allowed access to the server we “bought.” And when we leave, they keep it all and “sell” it again.
His only comment was, “So what you’re saying is we are all just suckers.”
And my answer was (and still is) yes, but WILLING suckers … for now.
@Metacam, you might be interested in this article on Second Life’s Ponzi-ness.
His conclusion? “No, SecondLife is a classic pyramid scheme. Or, more of an Amway-like pyramid: partially legitimate, partially ponzi.”
I hope the guy would eventually learn some anatomy and hand-drawing because the tied angel statue on Black Swan was more than hilarious and the ballerina had masculine face. So quite a lol after all.
no big surprise in his 2007 “pyramid” article since AMWAY itself via its “new” names and business shells came into SL to “mall franchise” during the hype of 2006.
just more fodder for the virtual economy of the real world and the slow realization that the virtualization of money has run its course.
any real economist will tell you money is only about “trust” and that systems that by nature, dont offer “trust” cant offer any actual virtualizations of money- aka an economy.
so much for casanova and metanomicons.;) EVE has a economist on staff, dosent it? and the latest run of its bank by a medical paying dad playing a “pirate” certianly put all that “virtualization” of others peoples money and time into clear perspective.
Las Vegas casino have economists too, right?>
Anyhow, Rezzables story is nothing new from the internet and 15 years of its virtualization dreams and falsehoods.
I think the thing we learned is now, artist people like Rezzable need to learn how to be greedy fucks.
C3 – um, ok. Glad to have your continual reminders of stuff that happened 15 years ago.
I’m not sure I entirely agree with your virtualization of money comment, because I’m not entirely sure what you’re saying. You have that cryptic way about you hahaha.
In any case, ‘pyramid’ post to follow, feels like a good one for the weekend.
Metacam – I disagree. Artists are a different story. Rezzable was clearly a business, not a patron of the arts, although it happened to provide patronage as part of its wider business model.
There were artists working for Rezzable, and Rezzable supported art on its sims. But Rezzable was a business first and its the business side of what its doing that’s the issue at hand.
yes. well im not paid to answer any questions in blogs:)
and Im either a Yogi Berra or an Einstein in my comments..lol..Prok and You all can decide.
suggest you watch “The Ascent of Money” on PBS….”virtualization” becomes more of a history lesson after a view than any metablogs futurism;)
Also why not look up PONZI… he fed on his own, as did Madoff, as does the SF tech valley types. But as the virtualization of Money went more and more “electric” and digital the collatoral damage that could be done in the shortest accelerated time became larger and larger.
What will also be obvious to many soon, 15 years late, is that Artists/ IP creators need to own tools and own their works. Almost NONE of the current Virtualization of 3d, storage, or media has that in mind. Either control is being taken away by large investment corporations via “service medias growth meme”, or by “free” content metachildren “meme” that are of course funded by the large vested financial interests anyway.
Banks virtualized money- and now they own all the land- property- and even your cars;)
Google and others are virtualizing IP, and who do you think will own it all by 2050.?
Rezzable learned what Protozoa and others;) did 15 years ago. – google it, before google decides to remove the past listings– they can do that you know;)
BTW- as yourself- what will be left of this blog in 15 years?
A fun (if early and very brief) look inside:
http://davidcheney.wordpress.com/2009/07/10/postcards-from-blue-mars/
[...] wrote some time ago about Microsoft’s purchase of 3DV Systems, quoting an Israeli news report: “3DV Systems [...]
I think they’re brilliant – Immersion 2.0… via Rezzable?
http://davidcheney.wordpress.com/2009/07/11/immersion-2-0-via-rezzable/
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » Australia to Ban Second Life? [...]
“Immersive disorder”? I asked your question on SLED: nil response. Google: nada. Pubmed: quoted phrase not found. Sounds like a neologism. If anyone attends, please enlighten and use terms the lay-person can understand.
It’s the 1st I heard that term, too. I Googled it and besides, here, it only appears http://maxping.org/virtual-life/other/launch-event-psychology-of-immersive-environments-technology-working-group.aspx
I can certainly understand a need to define the experience. Then it can be studied. I will be following the discussion.
I really enjoy this blog, I cut down my feeds, but kept you.
Can you tell us who’s behind this group?
I thought psychology was the study of human/animal behavior, not environments (immersive or otherwise).
What’s an “immersive environment”? Is a swimming pool an immersive environment? (People immerse themselves in swimming pools.)
Does this have anything to do with virtual worlds?
Virtual worlds are certainly an interesting place to study human behavior. After all, they’re populated by humans behaving like humans.
First shrinks, then who? Cops?
I hope to God that the new viewer will be closed source. That would be a real victory for common sense and business pragmatism and also put an end to all these screwy hacked viewers that are used both to grief and to confuse newbies. In fact, maybe LL could say, “Go on using all those hacked screwy viewers if you like, but if you want X or Y feature, it will only be in this new viewer.” A lot of things went wrong when the Lindens caved to the opensource thuggery and opensourced their viewer. They could set it right by closing up the next one.
Of course, closing up the viewer could be accompanied by increased moves to formalize and “legalize” content creation by residents to the point that amateur content will be heavily discouraged if not outlawed.
Dusan, I count on you to be one of the few smart people in SL. So when you say that you “stayed in SL for Svarga and Starax,” I have to grimace.
Starax is wonderful and all that, but…it’s kitsch. It’s Disney’s fantasia. His earlier years were better. The Black Swan thing, that looked like a lot of poured tar for my money, was hideous. I kept looking in the sky and the water for this other cool thing that he supposedly made — never saw it. My recollection of Starax was him throwing a tantrum and leaving SL because the Lindens broke his famous wand — but then not returning even when they fixed it, and coming back on a secretive alt that only seemed to serve to make his statues insanely priced on the market of resales.
Svarga? I’ve written reams about the essential socialist claptrap around Svarga, and this manipulative posture that Lauk has taken time and again saying “the community” or “the Lindens” must “save Svarga,” but then…winds up selling it. Or saying she’ll sell it, but not with the scripts.
I used to be a huge fan of Lauk’s. No more, for all the reasons I’ve outlined in my blogs about her posturing around the land sales in Orwood and with Svarga. But…take it on its own merits. What’s the big deal? It has artwork that is matched or exceeded by Straylight and other natural sims — and Straylight makes tons of money,most likely, for its creator. There is absolutely no reason why Svarga couldn’t have had way more content sales, much more advertising, and more tier paid. It was only ideology that hobbled it.
It is absolutely NOT imperative to have the Lindens preserve it. They should do no such thing. People that stubbornly refuse to engage even in a non-profit style business plan that helps cover costs and sustain the creativity deserve scorn, not another coin in the hat passed. I never “got” what was so fabulous about the AI, either. It’s not as if there aren’t other groups working on AI and making creatures and flowers realistic, too. The world has turned on its axis since Lauk and Starax, the beta-era oldbies, came and conquered. There are new creators doing as wonderful work and even more interesting work, so it’s time to thank them for their services, write an encyclopedia page on them, and move on.
As for Rezzable — meh. I’ve said my piece on that bog and my own blog. I keep asking what will happen to all those artists the led on and kept paid for quite a while and now will suddenly dump.
Again, I don’t know what you are talking about, intellectually, Dusan, and critically. Disney, all over again. The Borrowers Meets Toy Story. It’s a scene that reduces you, the viewer, to a, well, audience, not an interactive part. Nothing to click on, hardly. Nothing to buy. Not even a t-shirt readily available to take home unless you figure out to TP to the sky. These people sit on traffic and don’t provide the basic gift store that a RL museum would have to cover its rent. It’s disgraceful. It’s disgraceful not because it’s amateurish or bad business, that could almost be forgiven, but because it’s ideological. Rezzable joined the big Chris Anderson Free train. Give everything away for free…except charge sometimes…except sell a perfume ad…except wait for a lecture fee. Oops, Chris Anderson can get lecture fees to sustain his lifestyle as he goes around evangelizing “Free,” but Rezzable’s Himoff couldn’t likely get his way paid to appear on a VW conference somewhere.
Again — frustrating sims. Cliches. Junkyards. Urban post-apocalypse. Carnivals of doom. To be sure, things like Toxic Gardens had a lot of punch to them. But…Himoff was hugely reluctant to rent out a single thing, even an ad board or store. Insane. You cannot have land in SL and not develop it for rent or resale. it is a brutal fact. It also creates sterility when you never interact with other businesses.
As for those whining about the expense of Linden servers and whining that we help the Lindens buy servers, I can only reiterate what i say to all such whiners: they are not just servers. They are such stuff as dreams are made of. All the interactivity, the content of others, the serendipity — that is what you pay for. Understanding it as mere rack space is the sort of nerdy literalism that people in SL, even tekkie wikinistas, should have left behind by now.
And that brings us to OpenSim. Huh? Why do you think OpenSim is where it’s at? No one ever reports anything happening in OS because…it doesn’t. It is a lot of people playing in their garages…
Google — the ad agency that provides search as a loss-leader — already owns a lot of stuff and you won’t have to wait 50 years.
Prok:
I need to do a little digging. Open source licenses completely confuse me. I was thinking about the way the SL viewer includes components that are closed – the sound library, for example. I’m wondering if there’s a way to release the new viewer with “base code” that’s open source, but plug-ins that are closed. I wonder this, because I wonder whether you can put the genie back in the bottle so to speak – like you say, whether they can release the viewer with components that you can’t copy, that are proprietary. It sounds really messy to me however.
I wonder if this explains Snowglobe – a shift to a closed, or more closed viewer, while Philip continues to support an open source version of the “old viewer”.
By the way, don’t get me wrong about Svarga. It was one of the reasons I stayed because it was the first sim I ever visited that was a fully built environment that was ‘professional’. Up until then, all I had seen was mainland and a few immersion sims like Midian I think, the Hobo place, but I didn’t realize that the content in SL could look as good as a game, say. Svarga seemed like a fully built, professionally done sim with a narrative potential that I hadn’t seen anywhere else.
Having said that, the “ecosystem” thing they had going confused me – I didn’t see the flowers growing and bees pollinating or whatever they were supposed to be doing, I kept thinking maybe it wasn’t working. However, what I did see was that you could build out a full environment with narrative potential. I was left stumped, however, by the business model but at the time I didn’t care.
I don’t disagree that it was Disney-ish, same with Greenies. On the other hand, I am a believer that there’s room in the world for curated experiences, and that there’s funding available for such experiences. Greenies and Black Swan and Svarga were all curated experiences, but….well, no one seemed to be paying for them, or I couldn’t figure out how paying for them was leading to revenue.
http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus-tactus/
Until there is no acceptable speech recognition, keyboard stay here.
Gestures and touch screens are useless for computer use.
You can play stupid games and make simple navigation out of gestures/touches but that’s all.
And machines are way far from being able to understand even a half-sentence if it’s arbitrary like ‘hey, open second life and log me in while i’m out in the kitchen.’.
Maybe you should rather re-program people to speak in computer-understandable way.
As for keyboards, you should rather make vertical keyboards and mice (see google for existing products) to preserve your hand’s health. Oh, you can’t see the nice led displays then…
I tried to comment on both of the two sites where this press release/event notice is posted and both sites fouled up in either processing my registration or when attempting to post a comment. I could not find the phrase “immersive disorder” anywhere else. (But I’m sure my husband thinks I suffer from it)
What I am most concerned about personally is the sad plight of those who suffer from “immersive dyslexia” and so are forever challenged to understand the vibrant experience the rest of us have in virtual worlds.
[...] Thanks to Dusan Writer for the heads up. [...]
[...] of economist Edward Castranova’s second book, Exodus to the Virtual World (read my commentary here). In that book, Castranova argued that virtual worlds are both fun, and that they can manipulated [...]
next “crystal therapy”– and magnets for avatars…
call me the “avatar wisperer” TM
and i charge $250 an hr.
Troy – As best I understand it the group is affiliated with the Immersive Education Group. Unfortunately, I don’t have the full release on hand, but that’s who it was sent by.
Maybe i should create a magical rock that is the cure for an inworld addiction? or maybe a river that you drink from giving your avatar the power to fix your real life problems (re: Addiction to SL).. and then make a business out of that and say..
Heck. I already came across councilors in world that know how to tell others how to fix themselves yet do the very things wrong with themself… lmao…
Is there going to be an addiction to business in SL next? we want you to stop making money and give your business to us because your to addicted to it.. rotfl….
Sorry.. lol.. My point of view is its all in how you think and other influences around you to what you do, say and think. Im talkin in the real world not in SL.
Cheers & Have A Great Day
[...] had me re-thinking what it takes to build a business in Second Life, or maybe it was more the comments on my post, most of which seemed to express one of two thoughts: “yeah, it was never clear what Rezzable [...]
Very interesting and insightful post.
Great post, I generally agree with your conclusions. Will be interesting to see how SL business and cross platform business perform over time, what solutions there will be created. I hold my beliefs very firmly – that lots of change is coming to this field, and some of the most effective business models in Virtual worlds are not yet to surface…
Another great post Dusan. I think you’re spot on and can’t wait to see your take on the “gray market”.
I might make a smartass or dismissive comment as well, but when I read “The SLunkie Factor” I saw some very familiar characteristics that I have seen played out by others before.
In particular, one friend I met in SL who I came to like very much. I used to have breakfast while seeing him every morning, we had a lot of laughs. He created one an avatar that seemed to express more charm and personality that most. He created several clever and successful businesses. But then there were increasingly long absences, and then he was gone.
I worried that something was dreadfully wrong in RL. Previously, he had some health problems, so I wondered if he was seriously ill. Maybe he was in jail. Not knowing nagged at me and I felt helpless. I kept pushing and eventually I was able to get my email address to him so I we could communicate.
When he explained his reason for leaving SL, it was similar to the “SLunkie” syndrome. SL was interfering with his life, he tried to find ways to re-balance, and finally decided he had to leave.
I am sure a lot of variants and other factors can come into play to create situations where a person’s use of SL unbalances their life to the point where it becomes detrimental. What Dusan outlines in the working group’s agenda seems to be a useful place to understand the psychology dynamics of virtual worlds and our lives.
Lots of insights and interesting considerations in this post.
Hmm, this is interesting. It reminds me of Interactive Fiction (IF). Few people have even heard of it, but there is a very large community under the radar that plays IF. Its a bit like reading, but with some gaming elements woven into stories. It still attracts people, but mostly, the community meets on its own private network, called (ifMUD)
Its a bit like Second Life, though not really. Similar in purpose, and detail, but vastly different in nature. The ifMUD doesn’t have any graphics. Yet I wonder if both communities will dissolve into its separate parts.
Yet, social/task groups are united for: being social, and tasks, so it wouldn’t seem like they would disconnect, but just the thought of it seems scary to me.
We do our weekly BYTE-SIZED learning event in SL on Wednesdays at 9am (PT) and our goal is to show those in business and learning how to push the envelope of creativity to help people learn. Today we look at ways to stay marketable and relevant into days job market. Lots of interaction- not your momma’s PowerPoint presentation!
Forgot to share the SLURL:
http://slurl.com/secondlife/MSIT/219/149/37
This blog addresses this question, too: http://www.slthingstodo.com/
Frank Lloyd Wright’s Fallingwater
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Schwanson%20Schlegel/159/171/28
Before you leave, thank Cecilia Delacroix for paying the tier for more than two years by walking through her art and photography museums which surround Fallingwater.
Read about Fallingwater here before you go:
http://slbuilder.wordpress.com/fallingwater-in-second-life/
And more of the story is here: http://slbuilder.wordpress.com/fallingwater-in-second-life/fallingwater-how-it-came-to-be-virtual/
For anyone who is keenly interested in architectural replications in Second Life there are other FLW buildings like this one. Virtual tours are very instructive.
For rich environments that are easy to navigate I would recommend:
Chakryn Forest http://slurl.com/secondlife/Chakryn/128/128/2
Cocos Island http://slurl.com/secondlife/Cocos%20Island/128/134/1002
If an event was going on, like this weekend’s RfL, I’d take them there as it would tick so many boxes. Creativity, community, inworld business, nonprofits …. and not a flying penis in sight! I’d steer clear of something that was very resident orientated and laggy, like the Hair Fair – they would come to that in their own good time.
I’d then build something around their interests and their needs, with a couple of drop jaw places (such as The Galaxy, the Isle of Wyrms, the airships of New Babbage or Steam Sky City in Caledon (all powerful communities). Maybe a good example of real life/Second Life integration – such as the NHS/Imperial College sims, Orange Island, the Dresden Art Museum, IBM. Maybe a university – Edinburgh, Princeton – or a smaller college with some educators who are passionate about SL. Nonprofit Commons or Better World Island to show how Nonprofits are using SL.
And I’m sure my list could be taken by other people with the same criteria and completely different results.
But, to be honest, the places aren’t going to matter as much as the people. Line up the people who use these places and let them speak …
Here’s where I’d take someone: SS Galaxy, Victoria City in Caledon, the H. G. Wells Memorial Library in Caledon Wellsian, Talis Science Fiction Portal on Info Island, a ride on the Steeltopia Trolley, the Port Harbor Pier in Steelhead, Seacliff, Virtual Harlem, HealthInfo Island, someplace where people are dancing
I’d take them to Musimmersion – the next one is tomorrow Jul 16th at 6PM SL.
https://secure-web13.secondlife.com/events/event.php?id=2918546&date=1247727600
http://musimmersion.weebly.com
“you don’t have the time to attend a concert”
Actually, one hour of Grace McDunnough’s Musimmersion is the first thing that came to mind.
-ls/cm
Adding to Saffia’s constructive posting, SL’s diversity simply cannot be summarized with a one hour in-world presentation. It would -at best- be a well picked slice of a pie of flavors, where I can only underline Saffia’s suggestion to let the people of those places speak from their focal point.
If you aim to impress your guest with a general impression as in “the best of its domain”, there are some good sources out there: first of all, you could read Amanda Lindens twitter and blog, called workinginworld, added with some great tips from this thread and have a critical look at http://www.b-places.com, the most neutral and wide spread voting system of sl (where you still have to filter out the manipulated voting sims).
In summary, I would advise to categorize your trip and pick your best examples of each category and its specific added value, mirrored to what might be of real interest to your invitee.
I would take them to the 7 Days Bakery as a great first impression, a walk through Caledon & New Paris. If they have a desire to build I would definitely include the Ivory Tower of Prims. For mainland I would start at the Bayjou in Bay City and fly them in a plane/blimp/rocket/etc over Route 66 (hopefully overtaking the Trolley), over the channel, past the AMORD building and Nova Albion to visit the Photo Studio of Grignano as an example of Mainland at its finest.
Every single person interested in content creation should be dragged (forcibly if necessary) to Drowsy to see exactly what they’re aspiring to. The place is simply stunning visually, creatively and technically.
Dusan, thanks for pointing out the information about writing and Second Life from my blog. I think one reason SL is so appealing is that it requires no time or travel expense to instantly connect with authors you want to meet in person, or to introduce your writing to a much larger audience. Published authors’ use of SL as a stop on a book tour is definitely on the increase.
Joan
I’d take ‘em to the Shelter—friendly place to hang out.
It’s also occurred to me that what this particular person is interested should be considered. Somebody who wants to design clothes, somebody who wants to build houses, a Star Trek buff, a nurse, a university professor — each would probably find different areas of sl interesting. These is such a wide variety of experiences available!
Great suggestions everyone! And absolutely – the NUMBER ONE thing is people. Thankfully, he is well connected to that idea – that it’s the people that make a technology what it is. In fact, if I were to recommend ONE thing to anyone as a way of understanding SL it would probably be a live music event – it shows you the richness of the platform and is an immediate way to connect with others, and to get a sense of how amazing the people in SL can be.
In this particular case, I suppose the broader point I want to make is “this is a world that supports a wide range of activities” (but please don’t forget that it’s the connections and serendipity that makes it what it is).
Any more suggestions keep ‘em coming.
I’ll add my own to the list and report back to everyone on what we ended up seeing, the response and will let you know who it is (I didn’t want to post a name without permission).
Thanks all!
Maybe visit the tsunami simulation on NOAA’s first sim, named Meteora. It’s in the southeast corner. Just click the sign on the beach until the water recedes, then click it again and watch as the giant wave washes in and destroys all the buildings.
From there, you can explore the SciLands (the continent where the NOAA sims are located).
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » In-World Business Models and Second Life [...]
[...] Second Life Tour – Where Would You Go Today? [...]
I always laugh when I see people getting all agog over rewarmed 1970s secular humanist dreck like Maslow. Many people, whatever their obvious organic and mental self-interests, in fact putting something higher on their pyramid of needs — a sense of something higher (like God) or a feeling tht they belong to some higher purpose (a social or political cause) or belong to a group (geeks). While you could try to pretend any of those things are about “self-actualization,” if you are intellectually honest, you won’t play that game. They aren’t. They are about in fact restraining, or lessening the self for something that ultimately provides some greater sense of worth.
The “Belonging” part doesn’t really belong as a middle goal with “self” at the top for many people. Belong is more important than self in many, many cases, especially for people in situations like — being a teenager, being a partner in a relationship, being a worker in a company, etc. etc. which they encounter throughout life or daily.
This very incomplete “hierarchy of needs” just does not explain everything there is to explain about human beings, nor does it even explain the priorities of every secular humanist who might find some justification for invoking it. As such, it dumbs down thought by trying to get people to shoe-horn themselves into some really inadequate template.
Hamlet nee Linden Au is fascinated with this template because for him, it’s comforting and he likes it as a theory. It passes for deep intellectual thought for him, and he thinks it’s thrilling that a nightclub owner (Jenna Fairplay) could invoke it in a virtual world. He returns to this big “journalistic find” again and again as he thinks it’s a fabulous insight. But it’s just…tedious. Hamlet’s thinking never seems to have gotten much past a few books he has read in college, if that.
As for everything else you’re writing about the virtual economy, you’re making the classic mistake that every tekkie seems to make in looking at this too literally, and in obsessing too much about the fact that prims replicate easily and freely.
And that is: attention.
Attention is the greatest scarcity there is in a virtual world and online in general. In real life, attention to organic needs are more basic and there are more duties calling — indeed these are all the things that pull you “AFK” away from the online world.
But online, attention is scarce. I might have a limitless ability to keep putting on new outfits, but nobody but me might see them. There are only so many friends with so many attention spans who can see them. Same for cars or houses or any accessories — and the same for trying to advertise them, or trying to do anything, profit or non-profit or educational or entertaining in SL — attention.
People sift through a huge amount of stuff and make conscious or random or accidental choices and the economy lives or dies on this.
Comment cross posted:
“Prok -
I’m slightly confused as to where we disagree, other than perhaps your interpretation that I subscribe to Maslow. I quite clearly said in my post that I have issues with Maslow’s hierarchy.
But never mind that. Because basically much of your assessment is in line with my own. In my post I propose that successful business models in SL evolve, often from a grounding in an object economy, and then moving into the domains of management systems (vendors, land rental systems), environments (themed sims and events), branding (”Caledon” as a brand), and finally the extrapolation of content into other media (blogs, youTube machinima, etc).
What you describe reinforces my belief that it’s not sufficient to be in the “Victorian Chair” business – you need to evolve past that into environments, community, branding etc.
I also fairly clearly made the point that land is a key driver of the SL economy because it provides a counterpoint to the lack of scarcity for virtual goods – because land is not infinite, and yet virtual goods CAN be infinite, you end up with a dynamic coupling of one thing which is scarce, and one thing which is less so.
I also make the point that even if virtual objects are NOT scarce, you still benefit through the use of distribution and management tools, environments, and branding.
So, I’m not sure I see the disagreement, other than I used that damned pyramid when I could have used concentric circles or something.
Where I strongly disagree, however, is in the comment you made on my blog about “attention”. There’s a lot of mindless clap trap out there by the pseudo-marketers about “attention” and I hate to advance their cause. They’re trying to disguise business models that don’t have any foundation and using the “attention” argument inadvertently supports what I believe Rezzable was after, or was the main basis of their “business model”.
You commented:
“Attention is the greatest scarcity there is in a virtual world and online in general. In real life, attention to organic needs are more basic and there are more duties calling — indeed these are all the things that pull you “AFK” away from the online world.”
You also said that I made the mistake of tekkie literalists.
Give me a break. There’s nothing tekkie literalist about it – I’m an ad man, if you will, and like any ad man, I’d look at a world with more blue jeans than we know what to do with and I’d propose that you either put them in a nicer store, create a brand around them that’s worth more than the literal product, or find distribution channels that no one else is tapping. What’s so tekkie about that exactly?
In any case, the error in talking about “attention” as a driving factor in how we think about business models is that it subscribes to the drivel out there about an “attention economy”. Frankly, it’s a load of crap. It’s the same thing as “aggregating eyeballs” just with different window dressing.
I mean really – what’s advertising? Or selling products? You can’t just MAKE the thing, you need to get someone to buy it. And sales and marketing is fairly simple and it goes like this:
Look at me!
Aren’t I pretty!
Buy me!
Now, I subscribe to getting people’s attention, but only within the “Dusan’s Master Paradigm for Success” – yes, you need to get people attention, but it needs to then communicate a positive value, and it needs to end in a transaction.
All this noise about an attention economy is focused on the fact that it’s harder and harder to get people to look at you. And so entire businesses are being built around the erroneous idea that what you REALLY need to solve is the “look at me” conundrum and somehow the “aren’t I pretty/buy me” stuff will take care of itself.
And isn’t that really what Rezzable tried to do? They tried to get your attention. They tried to look real pretty once they had it. But they forgot about the “buy me” thing, except in a half-hearted way…somehow, they had this idea if they could crack the first two parts, the ‘buy me’ part would follow.
Sounds a lot like Twitter. Or youTube. Or Facebook.
They all figure they can continue to generate lots of attention in this attention economy you’re talking about. And yeah, maybe they’ll be able to tack a business model on to the back end of it, but none of them were built with an actual, well, PLAN for how that would happen, and so the success in the “buy me” part of the equation isn’t guaranteed.
Maybe Rezzable had a plan. Something like “look at me, aren’t I pretty, now someone ELSE buy me (or fund me) and figure out how we could have made money at this.”
So bottom line, I just don’t subscribe to this “attention economy” meme – I subscribe to the idea of getting people’s attention towards the goal of eliciting a transaction of some kind, and in my old school world, that’s called advertising.
Everything else is just an excuse for people to spend lots of money trying to get your attention, with the faint hope that once they have it they’ll be able to convert that into something more meaningful than your time.
Now, I believe I built this idea of attention into the constraining and enabling factors for SL business. Without better social tools, with audience limitations (sim limits), and with lack of access to channels (other than a select few, such as MOTD), there is a constraint on your ability to reach people and to get their attention.
The rest of the attention is built into the model itself – the tools for managing stuff, the environments for keeping people somewhere, and the brands for making sure your message is louder than the next guy. But again, none of it works unless you have some land to sell or some things to sell at the end of that long process, otherwise you’re Black Swan with a tip jar.
Having said all that, I think this is an interesting discussion, because it strikes me that you propose something that’s very much at the heart of SL – it takes careful craft….it’s an artisan economy, and yet we’re seeing a subtle shift towards mass market tools, and I wonder what that will mean in the long run, and how far the Lab plans to take us as they march in that direction.
[...] is yet another link which I would like to add: In-World Business Models and Second Life (Dusan Writer’s [...]
I thought it was fairly biggish news when it was dropped. I know I was only one of a whole bunch of people to cover it.
@Tateru – yeah, I missed it at the time, must have been asleep at the switch!
[...] which recently announced that it was (mostly) departing Second Life for the promise of OpenSim, developed a tool which [...]
No mentioning the super-cute tagline ‘no prims left behind!’ ? Pfff… .
(But thanks for helping us to get some extra feedback!)
A very helpful interview, thanks.
So it’s OK to grab a copy and go make my own copy of the Greenies sim?
I’ll wait and see what is actually released before I pass judgment on how I think this reflects on Rezzable as an organization… but at first blush, it does seem a bit like a tenant vacating a property and intentionally vandalizing the place on the way out.
Thanks for the justification Rezzable. Never before has there been such an urgent justification for LL to post a policy that open source contributions will enter via the Snowglobe project and that any further non LL compiled system is allowed to access the Second Life Grid. This has been needed for a long time and now it is time to close the door and let the rippers go have a ball on their ripper grids ripping one another off.
That is to say:
and that any further non LL compiled system is no longer allowed to access the Second Life Grid.
rationale is more like, why punish the people that need useful tools because a few people will misuse them.
@ Ann — not really sure that LL can be any more successful in blocking content ripping — justified or not — than the music industry has been with stopping music being copied without payment.
I guess I’m not entirely surprised at that kind of thinking and yet I’m always a little puzzled to see it proffered. “Everyone else is doing it!”
Rezzable is asking for donations if they release the source code and will charge for a “pro” version. Would it be a stretch to assume that if someone copies and distributes their “pro” version, that also wouldn’t be adding any evil to the world? Could this tool be used to grab an entire Rezzable sim from Opensim? No additional evil there, right? (I’m not suggesting anyone do that of course.)
I know that copying stuff at both an object and sim-wide level has been technically possible for quite a while now. However, it seems to me as if they’re flipping Linden Lab (and its content creators) the bird on the way out the door.
/me shakes my head.
Whether rezzable intends harm or not, my honest opinion is that if they really cared, they would have done ownership checks in the app. OTOH, with open source, someone could always disable that. So if the tool is being released as open source, there’s really little point in doing the work to code that in.
My honest opinion? They have a beef with LL and want to force LL’s hand on pricing, etc. My further honest opinion? I never saw how they were going to make money with all those pretty sims and no revenue model. You can blame LL for your problems all you want, but not having a realistic plan (at least as far as anyone I know could see) for those pretty builds to make money is no one’s fault but your own.
OTOH, LL has borked permissions so that it’s possible for content creators to package their items in such a way that they have permissions they didn’t intend. A lot of it is content creators not understanding how permissions on objects in avatar or object inventory work, but that’s because LL made it totally non-obvious. People are in an outcry about that, and about copybot, but I wonder how many people will get upset about this, which can give people some of the same capability to hoist the works of others?
Anyone who’s been in OpenLife even a couple times has seen things that they’ve seen in SL, and chances are it wasn’t from the same creators either. The question is, is not giving a damn the wrong attitude, or is thinking anything can or should be done to stop it the right attitude? Obviously an SL economy can’t function if people can’t control the rights and means of distribution and sale of their goods.
Rezzable’s model is not based on the sale of goods (they tried that and failed, as far as I can tell). You have conflicting motives on all sides of an issue that really has no good solutions. But people do tend to care more about issues that affect their own bottom line. Rezzable won’t lose with this, because they don’t sell content in SL. Will some people who do sell content in SL lose control of how their creations are ported around to other virtual worlds? Possibly. Even probably. The question is, should Rezzable be the focal point of anger over it, or should this be something that LL and the open source platforms get more serious about working on together?
Cliff notes version for those slow on the uptake: I’m not suggesting above that Rezzable is evil. This is a problem bigger than rezzable and their “move your stuff the lazy way” tool. What I am saying is that they probably don’t really care about the impact to SL or any SL content creators at this point, even if they don’t believe there will be any or much.
Regardless of intent…the perception is Rezzable are indeed *flipping the bird* to other developers, agencies and home grown creators who are working within the restrictions of the Second Life platform and bearing the cost impacts in filing DMCA / proceedings to protect their copyright when missued.
Regardless, I know (for a fact) to add the controls required to check creator is not a major piece of development to add to this and the PR nightmare that is about to start for Rezzable goes away.
Risk/Reward discussion needed internally I suspect.
Continue down the path they way, perception remains not just within world, but with fellow agencies who are agnostic to platform but care about community.
Let’s put it this way we wouldn’t place business Rezzable’s way with this disregard for community (I am sure the twitter wires will be burning too).
Well covered Dusan. Thanks for highlighting it.
I wrote about this before:
http://commonsensible.net/2009/06/17/back-up-and-restore-full-regions-and-their-contentmaxping-saving-second-life-regions-to-a-hard-drive/
At least that guy is somewhat responsible.
I remember the wicked, frantic panic that swept the grid when the original “copybot” was released into the wild. At least that one isn’t so easy to use. And in not being so easy to use it keeps honest people honest.
What this will do is to unleash the “copybot” into the open and it will spread like California wildfires. /me sighs. Well, I suppose it’s a good thing I maintain my creations on a mainland sim. I suspect this thing might not work on Linden-owned and managed regions, but that’s just conjecture on my part.
Personally, I take it all in stride. First, my stuff has to be good enough to even be interesting enough for anyone to want to copy it at all.
Meh.
I find this a total outrage, and I find the cynical and nihilistic position of Rezzable, which we’ve seen many times before, to be an outright crime here.
Indeed they are evil, and indeed they are a disgruntled tenant vandalizing the place, but what’s more, vandalizing other tenants who previously had no beef with them, or even knowledge of them in many cases, whatever their belief in their own popularity and right to set policy by diktat.
It’s the same mentality that goes into terrorism.
Of course, one can provide the quintessential Mom’s answer to the whine that “but maaaaaa, everybody’s doing it” “If your friends told you to jump off a bridge, would you do it?” but here, the cynics don’t care if everybody jumps off a bridge.
The reality is that even Adam Zaius, who presided over the reverse-engineering and re-engineering of Second Life into OpenSim, was not so cynical or nihilist. He did not release the code and posted a statement that it would be misused, so he would not.
All this time, we’ve heard a hundred times that Second Inventory would never be a problem because it would never copy prims for which someone didn’t have rights.
I utterly repudiate the idea that “just because you can” and “just because there’s an analog hole” that you are entitled to copyright theft. You aren’t on the Internet, where “print screen” or “right click/save as copy” defeats copyright routinely, and you are not in virtual worlds, either.
Despicable, and amounting to industrial espionage and sabotage.
A few points that needs to be made here:
- Rezzable has NOT released this. They are asking for suggestions on how to release it.
- I WANT the ability to back up my sim. And hey, unless you have been living under a rock, it is already possible to copy just about everything, whether you own the perms or not.
- Dusan, I think the Napster analogy is an interesting one. I recall one Wired mag article back when the whole issue was getting underway talking about how it would be easier to get the toothpaste back in the toothpaste tube than to stop Napster.
So, BuilderBot is a piece of heaven or evil. How can it be made more heavenly?
So now there is the adult grid, the teen grid, and, what is rapidly becoming more apparent, the petulant adolescent grid which is populated neither by teens nor by adults but, rather, by those awful things which manifest the unstable synthesis of adult desire and infantile worldview. Whatdyacallum? Geeks? Because, ya know, if you put a “super cute tagline” on evil then it isn’t evil anymore, it’s a BoingBoing post!
Almost anything of value in the real world can be copied, from a Picasso to a software program, including photographs, music, watches, and so on. Digital stuff is easier to copy than other things, cuz its just a string of ones and zeros. What is evil is not the tool that enables one to copy, but the intent of the copier. i.e. am I copying somebody’s creative work for my own personal enjoyment, or do I intend to sell that work as my own and profit from that, thus doing serious harm to the creator. I, personally, think it would be great to be able to back up my home in SecondLife, even with the objects created by others, so I can restore it in the event of a system failure or port it to another world. But if someone copies my products and starts to sell them in ANY world, I am going to contact my lawyer or the police.
Bettina, if you want to be sure it’s used responsibly, don’t release it. Offer it as a service, not a product. Then you can be sure that you aren’t offering to back up prims that are not either created by or owned (with appropriate permissions) by the requestor.
The code to that is negligible. And the ability is something people want. So act like an upstanding member of the community rather than releasing software that you admit yourselves will likely be abused.
@Charles – And therein lies the problem. So many of the creators I know are exhausted from devoting hours of every week to chasing down copies of their work and filing DMCAs. Is there any end to this? It doesn’t seem technically possible. Will it get easier and easier to copy other people’s work? We all know the answer to that question. So how to release something like BuilderBot?
I posted this on ArminasX’s blog, so apologies to those who follow comments for both his and this blog… but here goes:
$100USD for the pro version of the program is not going to deter any casual thief.. and much like Rezzable’s other ‘business model’ for creating revenue in SL, not going to be profitable at all. How much you wanna bet the program gets cracked and passed around on torrent sites within the week of release?
Also, do not underestimate the lengths to which ‘casual thieves’ will go to make a buck. Last month a bunch of ‘casual thieves’ copybotted my entire store, rented half sims in not one but two estates, and attempted to pass off my work as well as lots of work from many other creators as their own. And when their stuff was returned by LL, they simply appeared again the next day and rebuilt.
As someone who does full sim work myself, yes, it could be useful to replicate my own work in a full sim environment to take elsewhere… however NOT at the expense of adding another completely unfettered tool to thieves.
I would really like to see LL impliment some sort of API for registered third party clients and bots only. I recognize there are many that are legitimately useful and not harmful to the SL community.
What Rezzable is proposing to release however? I certainly feel has the potential to be harmful. And Rezzable should be prepared to face legal trouble should they knowingly release something that ignores SL terms of service and creator intellectual property rights.
And all for $100 a pop? I’m pretty sure Rezzable will find the costs exceed the benefits again… but then when did that ever stop them from trying (and failing) to make ends meet when they were still in SL?
@Feline We must have been posting comments at the same time because I just saw your latest now. I LIKE your suggestion of providing it as a service. A lot.
I’ve often lamented that LL does not provide a means for us to archive our creations in SL; that is, take a copy of our sculptures, builds, land, etc. en masse to our hard drive for safe keeping. Over the years, I’ve seen many great sim spaces and their contents disappear forever when their creators/owners have had to downgrade or change their SL status. Wouldn’t it be nice to legitimately store a copy of these creations offline for future resurrection at a different time or place? To me, this is what legitimate archiving should be, and a tool like BuilderBot could serve that purpose.
I can’t fault someone like Rezzable for pursuing a means to mass archive their hard work. Taking items into inventory piece-by-piece, bit-by-bit is a pain–it’s like packing up a moving van. But I can’t help but think that BuilderBot’s potential for good will be corrupted as a means for wholesale stealing, particularly from SL to Open worlds. The onus is on Rezzable to ensure that their brainchild is marketed, distributed, and/or sold as a means for legitimate archival purposes only. It is disingenuous to front an attitude of “we can’t control what others do with our powerful, god-like, copying device” as preemptive absolution from its near-certain abuse.
It’s too bad Linden Lab hasn’t prevented this potential Pandora’s box from being opened in the first place. We have the (albeit imperfect) permission controls Modify, Copy, and Transfer. Why not develop a permission called “Archive” that allows creators/owners to decide whether or not they wish to allow their possessions to be archivable in the first place, and then provide them with a tool/function to legitimately archive? Leaving this choice unaddressed only forces others to take matters into their own hands, as Rezzable seems to be doing now. Once the toothpaste is out of the tube, there is no simple way to put it back without making a huge mess…
“am I copying somebody’s creative work for my own personal enjoyment, or do I intend to sell that work as my own and profit from that, thus doing serious harm to the creator.”
“But if someone copies my products and starts to sell them in ANY world, I am going to contact my lawyer or the police.”
I am not an especially good doublethinker so it’s taken me a long time to finally *get* why the copyleftist geek is all for giving away freebies yet screams blue murder if someone turns around and sells their freebie copy. The geeks keep telling us that digital goods have zero dollar value – it’s what powers their moral self-assuredness when they pinch other people’s work off the net (for their “own personal enjoyment”). Yet, if someone is able to sell a freebie good, this demonstrates rather irrefutably that a market for said good exists and, as corollary, that the freebie, in fact, *does* have monetary value via the mechanism of market exchange. Of course, this reality undermines the certainty of the geek that digital goods aren’t worth anything (and, therefore, that no harm accrues when you copy them) and, like a thief in the night, threatens to rob the geek of his fundamental worldview. As such, the geek is forced to suppress the contradiction immanent in said worldview (such things are always uncomfortable) by suppressing the free economic activity that those, you know, less hung up on ideological abstractions engage in to pay the bills.
interesting, i’ll have to think about it… not sure what i think. but YES i’d LOVE to back up my sim. and i’d love to take a copy of black swan too before it goes
am i allowed to if i don’t sell it?
ok, i’d think not but i wonder if people would be allowed to do that, if so, i’d be against it cuz it would keep ppl from going to the other sims. ok gonna think more.
As a designer/builder I expect to be the one to make the decision how and when my products become available on any OS. And once they are available, I reserve the right to distribute/charge/earn from them. How dare you take that away from me?
The fact that people already rob banks does not mean that creating new and better ways to rob banks is fair game.
fuck you, rezzable.
Nice manipulation ploy as a swan song.
“This will help big time creators back up their stuffs!”
No. It will devalue their work. What good is “big name creator’s” sim if there are 10 different copybot versions of it across the black market grids?
At least the big timer’s work is known, they have recognizable product. They have customers looking out for them. They will have an easier time filing those copyright violation complaints.
No, this will really hurt the mom and pop stores across the grid. The little startups that do wonderful work but haven’t made a name for themselves. No one will be able to identify their work and stand up for them.
What LL should do is nip this “backup ploy” in the heart and offer those services themselves. They have the means to do it. And Ann O’Toole is right, they should slam the door on third party browsers for SL. That time is over as it is now proof positive the intent for them is to outright steal or sabotage the legitimate SL grid.
— @ Ann — not really sure that LL can be any more successful in blocking content ripping — justified or not — than the music industry has been with stopping music being copied without payment. —
Short of fielding a maintaining an army of copyright/IP lawyers to chase down pirates with a budget like those of the recording industry giants, I don’t see it happening.
Though it would likely be cracked in days, if not hours after release, the responsible thing to have done would have been to have implemented a permissions check function.
It might be a futile effort, but it would have been received as a token of respect for the builder community that is more sensitive to the possibility of copyright violation.
And as far as “evil” goes… true evil would be to have included perms checking, and then create separate organizations that feed the CopyBot paranoia by providing tools which create the “higher wall, taller ladder” scenario where programs are released to ostensibly enable and block functionality. *grin*
“— What LL should do is nip this “backup ploy” in the heart and offer those services themselves. They have the means to do it. And Ann O’Toole is right, they should slam the door on third party browsers for SL. That time is over as it is now proof positive the intent for them is to outright steal or sabotage the legitimate SL grid. —”
Perhaps so, but the genie – or toothpaste – is out of the bottle when LL GPL’ed the viewer code, as well as the server libraries that made OpenLife/OpenSim possible.
I would however, hesitate at saying that there are so many “black market grids” out there. I keep avs on OLG and OpenSim Grid (OSG), and while there are numerous BIAB and freebie plazas in those grids, there simply isn’t the viewership that SL has to really compare in terms of lost economy.
In fact, OSG, which I believe to be one of the largest alt grids… is lucky to have more than 50 people logged in at any given time. That, and the OSG isn’t really monetized the way the Linden Grid is.
Rezzable management has always been a fucking joke but if you are going to release this we will make sure every rezzable venue on the web will go down and stay down and i’m not talking rezzing lulzcubes in your pathetic sims.
Ryoma
I was told by another that there is an economy on the black market grids, and it is exactly that… black market. The sales are person to person off the grids because there is no means to sell items easily in the grids themselves.
And in my travels, I’ve seen plenty of stolen content.
Just because the “Genie” has left the bottle is no excuse to keep going ahead full steam. LL could very easily take care of the grids by stopping the pipe flow of stolen items by stopping the third party browsers. And what hurts SL creators hurts LL. The destruction of the SL economy is industrial sabotage because the economy is what keeps LL afloat. Whether they like it or not.
Disfunctional Parents- Linden labs create spoiled self entitled children- RightRezzable. and others;)
so obviously self serving and morally bankrupt. all of it.
You Destroy all because you cant Build what you want your way… Childish , all of it.
I posted here before that Rezzable and others the loudest to proclaim “leadership” learned and pioneered nothing in terms of 3d digital media online. Sadly this is all proven true in the most destructive of ways to many others.
Linden lab, as disfuntional a parent it is, HAS the ability to remove this spoiled child from the sandbox. Either legally or via programming work, many peoples investments and property must be protected by those who benefit from its usage.
Actual product announcement? product feature request? attempt at marketing? consumer awareness? developer self awareness act?
all of it selfish and childish. time to grow up folks.
Three postings I have made on the rez blog that you may like to take up with them Dusan…The last two containing urls that I urge you to click on and read.
<>
<>
<>
Posts read below – sorry
Sell this to the Lindens – your disdain for them is well known, and then you can leave with a feeling that you have one upped them in the manner to which you most feel you need. Then the Lindens can fix what you couldn’t and make it into a viable piece of software that can be used responsibly. Not that I am saying LL is necessarily the the best place for it, but better than some of the villains that are currently plaguing the grid with bots already.
—-
Mon, 07/20/2009 – 21:01 — ToxicMenges (not verified)
There is a phrase here in the UK: “They don’t like it up’em” meaning the type of person that can hand it out but doesn’t like to get it back – in other words hypocritical. If I may draw your attention to this posting: http://rezzable.com/blog/vint-falken/copyright-the-garden
Vint, care to comment?
———
Mon, 07/20/2009 – 21:34 — ToxicMenges (not verified)
if I may quote you Vint .. upon the occasion of being a victim of content theft “Shame on you” http://www.vintfalken.com/imvu-avatars-stole-my-eyes-textures/
Again I say, care to comment?
Yes feed your need to beat LL – anyone who reads SL related blogs are aware of your feelings on that level, but please respect those who have laboured and are staying in SL.
Given your previous few posts regarding leaving SL to move to other grids, this smacks of tossing a grenade into the building just before you leave.
“It’s the same mentality that goes into terrorism”
Frankly it is.
Bettina- since you want to invoke heaven and hell;)I suggest more pragmatism.
if you want to find a non diety “purpose” to “our” group. Then call for a voteable “sanction” or “tossing” of Rezzable within our group, Their website posted “argument” for a “release” 2 is offensive and if released as is – destructive to many who create IP as a profession and whom participate in an economy of the c/m/t managnemt system of IP online.
IP expressed in SL DRM is the(a) core of the NPIRL group, is it not?.;)
Ill assume after all this, Rezable will copy the DRM system of SecondInventory or decide NOT to release as zais has in the current described product form. Then at best this will appear as a failed “promotion” for a “new” 100$ product that has some needs for some. but also has competing products with the same proper backup capabilities.
Either way. FEAR and the threat of Extortion should not be permitted to be “proper” PR for any ethical creative group member. should it?
your group. my suggestion.:)
others in the group should voice their opions as well…if the attitudes voiced by RAR are dominant, please remove my name from the group.
back to the show
c3
I am getting sick of this. I’ve created a jira.
https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-14778
Also has to do with “follow-up” news not being covered as much as well. Remember the “age-play” fiasco way back when? B ig news about two residents age-playing, confirmed adults and the rumors of Robin being shown RL pedophelia imagery that were allegedly passed around.
Then I read some follow-ups that more or less “corrected” everything by showing that LL never could find the alleged pgotographs anywhere in nthe system (and we all know the kind of ‘access’ THEY have’ – and found how trumped-up, alarmist and manipulating they reporters were in all that.
But how much coverage did THAT story get?
I believe you (Dusan” and Tateru covered it, but nowhere near the number of blogs and so-called news sites that covered the original alegations did.
Just using that one as an example – there are dozens upon dozens of examples- SL related and real life related also. But you both know that already.
Thanks Ari –
Part of the reason I posted this was because I missed it when it first came out. I got the “Taser sues” story but I didn’t want to leave this trailing – kind of like how newspapers run corrections in tiny type on page 4 or whatever….not fair to anyone not to finish the story off.
well isn’t this special…
I know where I won’t be going, and that’s to Rezzable’s sims. I’m glad I’ve been working harder with Blue Mars and other Cryengine games lately, as well as RealXtend.
This is just pure malice on Rezzable’s part, and it’s going to hurt a lot of talented people. Of course this is so they can tout their own grid.
Screw you, Rezzable.
I have no idea about coding behind the copybot or Second Life, but it seems to me, we can scream at Rezzable all we want, but Linden Labs needs to be the ones to fix the problem. Maybe they can hire someone with that 100 mil in revenue to fix the permission system and prevent this from happening.
Thats my three cents.
It doesnt really matter if its an LL issue originally @Metcam, there will always be an analogue hole with everything, unless it gets rendered on the server.
But to aid and abet copybotting for profit and to burn down as many content creators in Second Life as possible, to promote their own grid haven (which suffers from the same problem, ironically), well… it is a new level of low. It’s about what Rezzable did, not about what LL can’t do much about.
You can drag me around with wild horses, that won’t get me to visit a Rezzable sim, ever again, no matter where it is.
“rationale is more like, why punish the people that need useful tools because a few people will misuse them.”
RightAsRain, it’s more like “Why barely benefit the very few that will use these tools properly, when legions of script kiddies will misuse them?”
I am absolutely stunned that you can callously take this standpoint. The timing is telling, too.
If you truly believed that this tool was *so useful* above and beyond the damage it would cause, why didn’t you come out with it when you still planned to sell significant volumes of content on the main grid?
You seem quite willing to casually play out this experiment on society, but only *after* the potential financial consequences to yourself have largely been mitigated.
The very nature of the tool ~ rip *everything* with ease ~ ratches the copybot problem up several notches. This is a script kiddie dream come true.
The price of releasing it will include:
~ stolen content problems for grid operators,
~ some fraction of content creator incomes,
~ increased need for DMCA notices,
~ Rezzable’s reputation,
~ Your reputation.
Worst of all, even if you *don’t* release it, some geektard (or several) is going to copycat the idea now that you’ve brought it to the forefront. And release their own version just for the lulz and bragging rights. Thus leaving your hands ‘clean’ but creating dangerously similar effect.
But of course, no doubt you’ve been thinking about all this through.
Do the right thing, and quickly.
Sincerely,
Desmond Shang, Guvnah
Independent State of Caledon.
This is fucking disgusting. I hope Rezzable gets badly burned over this kind of shit, fucking thieves.
On 07.20.09 Bettina Tizzy said:
A few points that needs to be made here:
- Rezzable has NOT released this. They are asking for suggestions on how to release it.
- I WANT the ability to back up my sim. And hey, unless you have been living under a rock, it is already possible to copy just about everything, whether you own the perms or not.
Bettina, that’s what LL do for you. It’s called a rollback you put in a ticket if you have an issue. And if it was non copy stuff a quick IM to the creator to authorise it is all you need for the rollback.
What gives YOU the right to bypass creator permissions, licences simply because you *want to back up*? How many commercial creators pay the tier that keep Linden in profit leaving the platform running so those who use it for free and creativity have that opportunity. Without the creators who effectively retain the users, and maintain Linden in the USD they need for profit – SL will not have a future.
@ Callie Cline. Good point, should Rezzable release this tool perhaps I can pop over to their grid copy all their work and recreate in SL to an invite only sim. Hey, I can even host my own open sim and replicate it and call myself Ressellable.
Appalling lack of commercial foresight and governance.
Bettina, stop it with the technocommunism, already. It’s unseemly — and stupid.
Just because YOU need a convenience doesn’t mean you get to destroy the entire world and everyone’s IP over it. Stop being so goddamn *infantile*.
The code not being released means nothing; it is out, it is around, it has already accomplished the doomsday effect and will keep spiralling.
This cynical notion that just because you *can* steal everything therefore you *should* belongs to thugs’ world, not civilization and not the Second Life community.
I’m really vehemently sick of hearing this snotty and arrogant explanation every time the issue emerges, replete with a snotty and vicious reference to the music industry.
Like…it’s ok to destroy the newspaper industry, the music industry, the book industry with rampant and criminal copying? Destruction hasn’t led to anything but profits for a tiny handful of cynical assholes who dine out having books and lectures about Free. These are not business models.
What’s most retarded about this infantile and cynical approach is that it relies on the idea that “somewhere” there will still be people who value content — oh, people who need to buy a jingle for an ad, or people who need a soundtrack for a movie, or people who like a t-shirt, or people who want a custom build in another colour. And…those people are expected not to race to the bottom and pay $0, too? Those people are supposed to keep paying top dollar to keep the cynical tecnocommies in business? Why? Who says?
There is no reason that creators cannot have some kind of permissions regime on their products and be paid for them. It need not be deliberately defeated so as to incite crime, any more than you give up on passwords and door locks just because of hackers and thiefs.
Anyone who creates an item like that, not considering how it will be abused, deserves to get hacked/money stolen from or any other bad scenario. I really have zero respect for people that come up with lousy excuses like ‘ Oh there will be bad people doing bad things anyway, so yeah the fact that I’m handing out guns to criminals, does not make me in any way a bad person, since I so much consider the actual impact that will have.
at least build in a checker that the prims you’re copying are your own created prims
You can’t stop this.
LL either change the business model and re-structure the whole SL making it a kind of MMO where you have a freedom unlike in any other ones (just hire better builders than the $10/hour moles)
or
make the copying harder. Currently with alternative viewers it’s really not much effort to re-compile them without removing the few ‘if x has y permissions on this prim then’ and you can grab whole sims and import them into the various OpenSims.
Of course when the real good builds are ripped and made available grid-wide, the motivation for newbies to actually search for the original and buy it, will be around zero.
cont. on my blog, sorry this is getting too long here…
Btw copyleft is still way much nicer than copyright.
Let’s go right to the end-game, shall we? It’s only a matter of processor power and patience to let a few spare machines plow through the grid now… set the sim copybot after the grid, copy everything, sim by sim, and auction the builds to anyone for the highest bid, for use on any grid. Counting down the clock until someone announces this for real.
[...] Rezzable Readies Release of Full Sim Copybot [...]
Prokbluster aside, I contend that this may be an attempt on the part of Rezzable to get into LL’s seemingly deep pockets (deep enough to buy the two largest third-party SL-shopping sites on the web), selling LL the rights to the software so that it *doesn’t* get distributed.
Doesn’t mean that someone else can’t create it, but if LL owns the rights, LL can sue anyone who creates a similar sim copier.
Follow the money, children.
Asking the viewer devs to sign a license restricting them from making copying tools won’t actually help. Firstly, the code is already out there, and LL are in no position to do an epic re-write of their protocols on a whim (although over time they would change, I suppose). Secondly, breaking a clear text protocol isn’t all that hard, or we wouldn’t have WoW-bots. Even if they encrypted all grid communication, it would just slow things down (the grid, mostly) as fundamentally the client needs to have the key to do the decryption.
The movie industry with its giant buckets of cash, careful licensing and trusted hardware didn’t manage to stop DVDs bring broken (and even Blu-Rays are fairly much broken apart from some sporadic fighting over BD+). You cannot solve this technologically.
Rezzable have announced that BuilderBot will not be released under a BSD licence, interesting development really. They also sound a lot more content creator friendly with this update:
http://rezzable.com/blog/rightasrain-rimbaud/reviewing-builderbot-release
We’re dealing with “Unavoidable Evolution”.
Consider the number of arts that have fallen prey to the adoption of more modern offerings that typically require far less time, mastery and talent to utilize:
Oils and Canvas vs. Photography
Horse and buggy vs. common automobiles
written correspondence vs. email
cellulid film vs. digital video
live performance vs. vinyl recordings vs. mp3s
Magazines and Newspapers vs. blogs and video
As technology advances, so to does our ability to duplicate. Draconian policies can’t stop this, and aren’t typically effective at slowing the rate of change.
With the channels of distribution growing wider all the time, it’s nearly futile to attempt detecting and prosecuting someone for unauthorized duplication. (and certainly not cost effective in most cases.)
So what’s the point? We can yell and scream until we’re blue in the face that “new fangled technology is stealing from and harming artists that create quality content”… and it won’t even create much of a speedbump to slow this down.
It is unfortunate that jaded creators may throw in the towel rather than watch their efforts reap profits for rippers. They do themselves and their fans a disservice when they cease to create.
To wax crazy and metaphorical… rippers are like moonlight. They lack the ability to warm or shine on their own… they merely create a pale imitation of that which they wish could have created themselves. It is time we should fear not rippers. So what someone copies something we did in the past.
It’s what we create next that matters most.
ugh, I proofread twice and still junk slips through.
… “they merely create a pale imitation of that which they wish [they] could have created themselves. It is ‘time’ we should fear, not rippers. So what if someone copies something we did in the past… it’s what we create NEXT that matters most.”
On Black Swan sim there is a tower build I created for Rezzable. They have full mod rights to the tower yet at a later time I placed some of my own works in the build which was not part of the sale, but placed because it improved the build. I didn’t mind just leaving it there as its ownership would remain mine allowing me to remove it should I ever wish to. It sounds like Black Swan sim has now been copied including those builds that were not sold to Rezzable. It could be argued that this is the first theft to be done with that script.
It is “amazing” how the “tech” attacks made on IP are targeted mostly toward “copyright”, while software “process patents” pay for it all.:)
Jopsy, here we go again with the fake march of fake vintage media analogies, courtesty of Internet memes and Clay Shirky.
Each one of those forms of media didn’t “disappear” but remained, and was built upon.
Each next form of media began exactly following the format of the previous one and not realizing the full capacity. Why does Walter Conkrite sound so sonorous? Because he’s reading for radio, he doesn’t yet realize he’s on TV (in the early days) and it sticks.
Each one of these media formats copies earlier formats, but the idea that one puts the other out of business belongs only to our age. The person who drove the horse and buggy moved over to driving the car — he merely had less horseshit to clean up now. The horses were ridden more for pleasure or sent to the glue factory but no one was put out of business. The saddle maker could make bucket seats.
No artist lost his job because photography came on the scene; portrait arists and painters remain to this day.
Nothing that you say is in fact true. Media does not displace other media, and even when it does, it doesn’t put people out of work UNLESS you are Clay Shirky and say it should, or unless you are 101 other geek bolsheviks claiming that everything except their consulting fees and government grants should be liberated.
Nobody “yells and screams” when technology changes because it doesn’t move as fast as you came. The newspapers are still in their newstands. I still pick up letters at the mail box, and there are still people taking buggy rides in the city where I live.
When people want to portray technology as “accelerating” or “putting somebody out of business” it’s usually because they want more power for their own class of people and want to egg on something that isn’t in fact accelerating as they’d like.
Yes, journalists have been thrown out of work. They found jobs in government, PR, and education where maybe they belonged all along.
The idea that we’re supposed to create, and just let creations be ripped and then just make new stuff is some gerbil-on-a-wheel idea that some corporation has saddled you with. We need do nothing of the kind. There are tools to stop theft. There are policies that can be put in place. Man up, and stop demanding that other people be put out of business so that you can gloat about your techocommunist theories.
By the way Jopsy, if you think it’s ok that everything you made in the past can be copied, please put your entire inventory out on your lawn set permless for me to pick up, kthxbye
Xugu Madison follows all the opensouce extremist candards on this discussion:
o your goal is not 100 percent deterrence, but better deterrence than we have now, so you do what you can and don’t give up due to lack of 100 percent closeability
o no one has demonstrated that such authenticating makes servers load slower or slows down the entire grid — this is one of those urban legends that code kiddies tell without any scientific proof “just because”. WoW does this and WoW doesn’t lag lol
o er, WoW does this, and it doesn’t have to hire thousands of coders, or somehow cripple itself to get the job done. It collects $15.95 from every player per month, it has 18 million users, it gets the job down. We need to stop hearing incessantly from whiney kids about how this can’t be done and is technologically impossible, and start assembling the data to make it possible and convince the Lindens
o they are hobbled by the Stallmanites in their own ranks and are split themselves — and Rob Linden tiresomely making long arguments on the wiki as to why you can’t do this, driven by his opensource ideology, has to be overridded so that other voices with alternatives can not only be heard, but try these things out
o Dale Innis and Zha Ewry need to be muted, as they continue to interrupt this conversation from the hugely powerful position of the hugely self-interested IBM, and that needs to be stopped – -get their pressure out of this discussion so it can be had free of ideology, greed, and politics, to the extent possible to verify its technical points
o there is nothing wrong with experimenting and trying different things.
o I find it the height of hypocrisy for Rezzable and their groupies to claim that it’s ok to let ripping code into the wilds like this because nobody will be smart enough to use it much as it’s too technical, and yet not apply the very same principle of technical obfuscation to make it possible so fewer people DO steal. It’s the biggest hold in their argument and I would keep accentuating it
o stop looking to the music industry for justification of Stallmanism, as it isn’t even being portrayed correctly. Last time I looked you still have to pay for i-tunes that you can’t just download for free. It may have been reasonable to remove DRM from the equations these companies had to deal with, where they had captive audiences with their i-pods dominating the market anyway, and where the issue was enabling the user to make multiple copies to different devices
WE DON’T HAVE THAT PROBLEM IN SECOND LIFE BECAUSE YOU CAN ENDLESSLY COPY BUT STILL KEEP DRM NOT TO TRANSFER DUH.
I had that epiphany myself literally in the last week as I reflected on it, and it shows that once you start thinking about this problem freely, without the cant of the opensource shill, you begin to find your way.
I received a inworld SL notecard and a transcript from a “group that cannot be named;)”
It seems the below comments made, that clearly are my professional and personal point of view toward the actions of others has caused the need for more clarifications from those who decide to create other “suggested” but “non authoritative or sanctioned” positions over others.
As the below repost clearly shows, I asked for no unilateral actions to be taken toward ANY PARTY, except POSSIBLY MYSELF in terms of a public listing.
IF only ASKING for Feedback and SUGGESTING actions is good for the Rezzable Goose, then I assume I’m fine and Gander.
c3
—————————————————
“It’s the same mentality that goes into terrorism”
Frankly it is.
Bettina- since you want to invoke heaven and hell;)I suggest more pragmatism.
if you want to find a non diety “purpose” to “our” group. Then call for a voteable “sanction” or “tossing” of Rezzable within our group, Their website posted “argument” for a “release” 2 is offensive and if released as is – destructive to many who create IP as a profession and whom participate in an economy of the c/m/t managnemt system of IP online.
IP expressed in SL DRM is the(a) core of the NPIRL group, is it not?.;)
Ill assume after all this, Rezable will copy the DRM system of SecondInventory or decide NOT to release as zais has in the current described product form. Then at best this will appear as a failed “promotion” for a “new” 100$ product that has some needs for some. but also has competing products with the same proper backup capabilities.
Either way. FEAR and the threat of Extortion should not be permitted to be “proper” PR for any ethical creative group member. should it?
your group. my suggestion.:)
others in the group should voice their opions as well…if the attitudes voiced by RAR are dominant, please remove my name from the group.
back to the show
c3
Hi!
I’m a member of the “explorateurs francophones” SL group. This group is based on exploring sims that we then advertise to our members through notices.
You might then find good ideas there too
My blog has all notices translated in English if you do not read French.
Hope you enjoy it …
@ Bryn — thanks. Nice to speculate and call us thieves. I don’t understand why if you have a concern you wouldn’t contact us and discuss. Is piling onto a mob really what you are about? I don’t think so. You are one of the most talented people working in SL and while I expect spew from many I would have hope for a lot more from you. Don’t get sucked into the darkness.
It seem that those who keep coding/ and evangelizing such “neutral tools” for “experimental economic” social release on the global web should check their math.
It does seem today that 3 wrongs DO equal 1 Right.
If this is not desired. Fix it.
[...] Last week Dusan posted in his blog about the Psychology of Immersive Environments Technology Working Group (or PIE.TWG for short) and I decided to attend their meeting. The group is still in the formative stages, but so far its responsibilities are: [...]
RAR my point is that if the Black Swan sim was copied it means you unwittingly copied work I had there which was not purchased by Rezzable. I don’t think you intentionally took them, I imagine you expected everything on the sim to belong to you and that is quite reasonable. But legally I don’t imagine that saying you didn’t know would hold up. Then again perhaps it would I really don’t know. But giving this tool out would likely cause a rash of LindenLab freezing of accounts and worse as people copied whole sims which belonged to them, yet contained objects which were purchased “no copy” thus breaking the original agreement upon sale.
I was very confused until I scrolled down and found the photo you are referring to. I loved it. It reminded me of that scene from Wayne’s World (I think!) in the guitar shop that had a sign posted which read “Absolutely No Stairway to Heaven!” A pleasant diversion from the acrimony of the past few days. Now, where were we?
Yep. It happens. Linden Lab changes to rules. All the time.
What I find (for lack of a better word) ironic, is that this issue is one that probably affected 0.001% of businesses. In fact, it seems like it can be traced to affecting only one company.
Who can worry about the referral system that stopped working over a year ago, when currently there’s a bug to turn permissioned objects into full perm: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4444
something like this.. this issue affects everyone. Who can worry about a referral program if the main laws of the inworld SL universe can be currently walked around.
What’s weird about this rue change is that Linden Lab still advertises the refer a friend bonus (which amounts to L$2000, a little less than US$8.00.)
Doubledown – Um, concern about one doesn’t exclude a high level of concern about the other. I guess I’m able to multi-task anxiety.
A properly constructed Affiliate / Refer-a-friend program can be one of the most powerful viral marketing tools a company can use to build web traffic and grow its customer base. I own a number of web properties that generate significant revenues, through a carefully chosen set of affiliate programs.
A program like this must be tied to a subscription or up-front revenue model to work. It’s not a good fit for the current “Free access” model, Linden Lab seems content to offer and is used by the majority of users. The Lab also seems content with the current rate of word-of-mouth-driven adoption. It obviously suits their growth goals and requires no further stimulation.
For the Lab, not sharing revenue they don’t have to makes perfect “bottom-line” sense. Unfortunately, in the long term, not offering ways for people to share in their success and share the excitement of that success with others will backfire. I believe the future of e-business and social networking will increasingly be one where customers are rewarded for helping build and grow brands. Companies that fail to acknowledge and reward the people who help them be successful will not survive this growing wave of grass-roots marketing and referral-driven sales for long.
@Dusan , I get what ya mean :O)
Curious: Then why does the LD_sources_and_sinks.xls for May 2009 show theses figures?
Description April L$Sources May L$MTD
Referral Bonus 0 852500 0 654500
@JeanRicard I have two explanations for why there is nonzero number in that report.
I still get a small trickle of referral bonuses, always associated with accounts with join dates before july 23rd 2008. Sometimes people hang out as basic for a while before deciding to upgrade to premium.
Also, it is possible that manually typing your referrer’s name into your sign up form, may still work, while the urls don’t. I haven’t tested that. Postcards (slurls) and secondlife.com urls with u= referral codes no longer work. The “refer a friend form” doesn’t work either, since all that does is send out emails with links to secondlife.com using your u= referral code.
Therefore, information on this page https://secure-web12.secondlife.com/account/referral.php?lang=en is false. It leads SL customers to go believe they will receive 2000L if they follow the instructions. They won’t.
After Linden Lab bought XStreet SL, they made it so you can use your SL avatar name and password to login there, rather than having two separate (but linked) accounts.
If you watch the browser tab name and the status bar closely as you login to XStreet SL now, you’ll see it’s contacting id.secondlife.com and the tab name says something like “OpenID transaction in progress”. In other words, it would appear that Linden Lab has created OpenIDs for SL avatars, or at least for those with accounts on XStreet SL.
It would be a straightforward matter for Linden Lab to tell you your SL avatar’s OpenID URL and then you could use that to login (with your SL identity) to any website that accepts OpenID for sign-in. There are over 48,000 websites that accept OpenID as a method of registration or login.
I still get referral payments at random for the same people from 2005/2006. Just every now and again, I get yet-another-referral bonus.
One of them, I’ve probably been paid for 10 times now.
HAHA Tateru – well, see, when they break something I guess they break it all kinds of ways.
@Valiant – totally agree (although the referral system is based on people who DO pay, but your larger point is correct). I don’t actually think this particular way of generating word of mouth and referrals is particularly effective. Maybe some kind of API system embedded in social media widgets or something, who knows. Plus, I’m not sure it should just be cash – some kind of status thing would be nice too.
We need badges like in Metaplace! Um, OK, maybe not. But surely they should overhaul the whole mess.
And P.S. I don’t think it should just be on an account basis, there should be some kind of larger enterprise referral thing as well.
I’ve just finished writing about this very issue of “silo ghettos” and their decline as part of my _Social Tesseracting_: a set of posts as part of the augmentology.com project:
“Decline of Silo Ghettos: as information deformation impacts knowledge forms, there’s an increasing need to provide social tesseractors with comprehensive dimensional engagement. This type of borderless interaction deforms monostreams into cross-channelled productions. Social tesseracts assist in addressing the walled garden approach to software and platform production [think: the isolation encountered in the locked door syndrome]. Google Wave is one system that removes such constraints and allows user input to migrate into previously distinct arenas. Other instances of interoperable systems that require the reorientation of Information Silos:
* augmented applications that encourage a pairing of geolocative and geophysical needs
* bridging software that links previously disparate platforms together [think: IRC-to-Second Life Chat Bridge].”
http://arsvirtuafoundation.org/research/2009/07/24/_social-tesseracting_-part-3/
Cheers,
Mez
I did? Throw me in a link, please, I don’t remember saying that… :/
Uh oh….you’re gonna kill me Vint….the thread I was thinking about was here, and it wasn’t you…sorry!
http://dusanwriter.com/index.php/2008/04/04/slippcat_freebies/
Mez – thanks so much, I missed your post (have you in my reader but I far too often fall way behind)….really amazing post, a MUST read. Will visit more often.
I think there are two reasons the Lindens retired or suspended this program:
1. There was a bug in the system, one I reported numerous times. Friends you’d made back in 2004 who had long since already delivered a bonus to you *kept* delivering the bonus at odd times in the following years, which should never have happened.
2. People gamed the system, harvesting “friends” in various ways or for various capers, not through actual general help or from knowing from real life. I’m not so sure that a website that informs people of new names whose owner manages to snag bunches of calling cards then through that every week isn’t a form of gaming (I’d like to understand that better). So like every other bonus thing the Lindens have offered that got exploited, they had to retire it because it drained money from them.
Yes, the avatar is a channel that I tune into when I want to do all those things associated with that avatar, and I’d like it to keep integrity, and not have that integrity constantly banged on and hammered on to crack it to link it to my real life name not out of some “fear of being responsible” but simply out of a desire to manage different aspects of my life’s activities *as I wish*.
I don’t hide this connection and indeed it’s not only available on Google, some people, precisely like Vint Falken, have made it a blood sport to Google bomb me and attempt to link this avatar name with my RL name as a form of harassment (Google it to see what I mean); hilariously, the Google bomb meant to “intimidate and shame me for life” is connected to a hate-page that Benjamin Duranske used to keep and update hysterically about me linking my RL and SL names…until he got a real job in a law firm and then deleted his hate-page because it really was unprofessional. So Vint’s hate-page links to a Duranske 404 lol.
I’ve never known anyone in SL to link RL and SL links for good purposes; it is always used as a form of brutal bullying and hate in an effort to try to shame and intimidate someone into silence of criticism, or to act in a certain way, or even to give up something like a transgendered identity. It’s disgraceful that people do that, and frankly, when people bully and harass me using this technique as Vint has done, I response by giving and equal and opposite pushback and doing it back to them, as it is the only way to deter bad behaviour in the absence of a legislative and justice system sin SL.
The call for RL/SL linkage can seldom be demonstrably shown to be in good faith, for good and moral purposes. The Metanomics pressurizing on this is odd, because those in business who need to use their real names either buy their real names at the outset, or put their real names on their profiles somewhere, sometimes smushing a first-last name into a first SL name and taking an SL last name. Such an act should be voluntary. if such people then wish to build networks among themselves and privilege that sort of behaviour of RL-SL linkage, that’s great, but then…they should have no felt need to bludgeon others into doing this.
That they do speaks volumes about what this is really all about: power over other people, and the endless debate about whether those who are anonymous have made a power play over other people, or whether they have a hedge against the attempt by others to have power over them.
As for Google Android, you’re not only right to raise this issue, it’s worse than you know. It is invading the home:
http://www.forbes.com/2009/07/22/google-android-homes-technology-wireless-google.html
Is this the same job as this one, and has the job been scaled down even as the platform scaled up?
https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2007/02/15/help-wanted-we-need-a-leader-of-global-technical-operations
Well done, Dusan. What a post! Time for me to sit down and develop my merchandising plan for Greenies toys and desk accessories. I also wonder if AM Radio should charge Nabisco for the work their ad agency didn’t do: http://npirl.blogspot.com/2008/07/nabiscos-ad-agency-inspired-by-second.html (because it wasn’t their idea). My point being that the ideas and creations that are begin realized in virtual worlds aren’t necessarily staying JUST in virtual worlds anymore. The borders appear to have vanished. The problem (or opportunity, depending on what side you are on) goes far behind the “walled gardens of VWs,” and into every aspect of human existence.
“my impression that it was operatic snark” — hah! My reaction exactly (but you said it better).
Great post. I need more caffeine and a couple of more readings to let the first wash sink in, but kudos on the analyses.
linden’s charging P500 for overnight wifi access, no way anybody’s going to be an idiot! so they are blocking all wifi connections! grrr.
There seems to be a lot of confusion about the differences between copyright, licenses, and DRM (digital rights management). Let me give a concrete example.
Suppose I make a chair from scratch in Second Life. Linden Lab lets me own the copyright in that chair.
Because I agreed to the SL Terms of Service (ToS), I must grant Linden Lab a limited license to do a few things like use photos of my chair in their marketing brochures. Read the SL ToS for more details.
I can sell Sam a copy of the chair and write a license which says, “Sam may sit in this chair on Fridays in September, and Sam must place it on a yellow floor, and Sam may make 4 copies of the chair, and those copies have the same restrictions.” Sam must agree to the license and we should keep some kind of proof that he agreed. (It’s a contract.)
SL includes some DRM tools which can help enforce licenses (e.g. enforcement of the next user’s ability to modify, copy, and transfer/sell the item). Obviously, SL’s DRM tools can’t enforce my requirement that Sam only place my chair on yellow floors. Linden Lab never anticipated that restriction, nor could they anticipate all possible restrictions. They just made tools to enforce some of the more common restrictions.
Right now, it seems to me like few people even know about licenses. The few people who do know about licenses seem only to know about the various Creative Commons licenses, the GPL, and the BSD license. Textures R Us is one glimmer of hope: they have a carefully-written license on the textures they sell.
Just for fun, here are some more licenses:
“Sally may only rez this chair when she has more than 347 L$ in her SL account balance.”
“Tim may make copies of this chair and may sell copies of this chair to people born in Sarnia, Ontario, Canada.”
Summary points:
* There are infinitely many licenses one can write to govern how others may use my content (intellectual property in which I own the copyright).
* Second Life doesn’t have any default or obvious tools for writing licenses. I suppose you could write a license on a notecard, but then how do you get proof that both sides agreed to it? For bigger things, you really should print a license on paper and have both parties sign it in ink. If you’re okay with digital signatures (like those provided by VeriSign), then you can do that too.
* The mod / copy / trans permissions that you set on an object are NOT a license. Those are just tools to help you enforce a license.
—–
In the Rezzable case, I suspect Rezzable owns the copyright in the content that their employees and contractors made for them, so they can do whatever they please with it, including copying it off The SL Grid to another virtual world. (The original creator retains the moral rights in the content, but that doesn’t usually mean much, unless you’re French and the creation is a piece of art, but I digress…)
Troy – great points. Again, I’m not sure how Rezzable approaches this – I know for myself, if I contract a designer we try to be clear in a written contract what rights are being transferred, whether it’s “everything, for any purposes, including the ability to mod, transfer, hack, or whatever”. Having said that, not all content creators are going to go for this, and SL implies a few things that we would try to articulate, including whether the work is attributed and whether that attribution remains if we mod it.
I’m reminded of Mark Helprin’s refusal to allow edits to a speech he wrote for George Bush, claiming that the copyright didn’t extend to their right to edit it:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124804423491263485.html
In any case, I think this more broadly supports my main argument:
- Copyright is executed within an explicit framework within Second Life that includes the concept of C/M/T.
- Contracts can be made between buyers and creators to over-write those perms.
- This is, however, in conflict with the stated goals of Linden Lab to facilitate IP protection and leads to an extrapolation whereby that protection comes in conflict with tools to “copy all”.
- The Lab needs to think about more than just the tools they use, they need to clearly articulate policy and the direction of that policy, and to look at enforcement as a mechanism for further communicating their intent.
As of today, the Lab’s policy is: “no one should rip of your content unless you have explicitly granted that right, but if they do, go hire some lawyers.”
But, while we’re on the topic of tools, I think the Lab could go a long way if they’d GOM or buy out Second Inventory or otherwise create a way for content creators to back up their works. I wonder even if they could do this on an estate level – kind of a “group owned” idea that’s applied at the sim level rather than the object level.
I’m not entirely sure what would work – what I DO think would work is a sort of “IP Summit” – a way in which these issues can be discussed in a transparent way and we can all get a clear sense of how all these mechanisms and licenses can fit together to protect the user-generated content business model or to at least know once and for all that the future of SL is elsewhere.
Bettina – yes, yes, yes!
These issues are broad and important. What saddens me is that we’re in a time when the business models that support the monetization of digital content creation are still relatively new and are evolving, Second Life has stumbled onto one that seems to be working, that has holes and frustrations but that is able to support a robust user-to-user economy and YET….and yet the Lab seems to prefer that this sort of organically evolve, that it doesn’t need a nudge now and then, and that for all the focus on tools they provide little guidance or strategic direction around the issue.
There are so MANY frustrations: attribution, group perms, bulk perms (fixed but, um, broken), back-up, etc. But in working on these problems at a granular tool level rather than within a policy framework, we risk seeing further erosions and waking up one day to realize that what was valuable is no longer so.
Seem some folks ideas arent HISTORY lessons, but that you/many finally caught up to their meaning.;)
Rezzables and others actions were “questionable to unethical” as they presented themselves as “advocates and leaders for professional creatives” This I believe true.
Anyone interested in a history lesson or suggestion for professional co-professional ethics and behaviors should at least visit the GAG or many other “old” profesional content creatives website.
The last week has been even more “questionable” as those who “had taken and asked for the most” from the “questionable culture and attitudes toward” non programmer “content creators” that IS part of the TAO of Linden, defended or executed the same non professional or open tactics to protect their own self interests above any said “profession” at whatever stage it is of “virtual worlds designer/artist”.
Now that the new web3.d metarati have caught up to the 1999 wed3d metarati in terms of realization of ones value and work product… what will you do next.
another SL dance party may not be the best answer-;)
BTW- collada is NOT a “standard” for wed3d, same as VRML or X3D were/are(ISO STANDARD) nor is O3D, collada and soon o3d are both like SWF (flash) or DXF (autodesk) standards due to a single companies domninance or market attempts, not an attempt at a agreed organizational bodies standards…like ISO.
As suggested last week, id be glad to sign-if i agree with the content- a letter directed to LL Business/Legal asking strongly for a redefined TOS in terms of the CMT “rules” of the SL platform/mmo game.
SL is as many said years ago.. another AOL, and many will reinvent their careers using it. And like AOL it is not capable of becoming a wider medium that many wanted to call it, the “metaverse”.
realtime 3d immersive media will not go away, either will the 2d web platform of virtualization.
Whose modes and actions we promote will define the society we are as we realize that virtualization with 3d ,edia, is just the lastest step in a process other started decades ago.
virtual food pellets for thought.
c3
BTW- i requested some SL IN-world –user IP creator folk and such be invited to speak to the first VR worlds summits/meetings of the last few years…. Stanfords and the first Virtual Worlds (engage) NY conference—- who were they? or could they be looked for or even found?, was the response by the show runners I received….?!-)
anyway, back to the show.
Don’t worry, if I’d ever kill you, it won’t be over this. But err… thank you for thinking about me, even if it wasn’t necessary. :d
Just for the record, I find a situation where the same overlapping company controls most of our search traffic, most of our statistical data for whom visits our websites, most of the advertistements on the internet, most of the maps, most of the ’streetviews’, and even a parts of the medical data of the – american – internet users pretty spooky. Monopolies are never a good thing, and I don’t think Google should have one, regardless how ‘well meaning’ they are suppose to be.
I don’t mind giving – what is considered ‘private’ inSL – date out, such as gender, age, location, profession, the fact that I have a cold, and even posting on facebook when I’ll be in London and when I’ll be in Belgium. When you see the errors that lately have been made as it comes to safeguarding data – by governement, search enginges, banks, military, … – I do think that the majority of nations should go and sit down, and have a good chat about international privacy and how they plan to handle citizen data now and in the future. And which restrictions on keeping data they want to impose.
Ann / Vint
official names?
hmm
how about Oceania? every one gets a waterfront view;)
better yet, lets call it Eden.
what, too SF?;)
very soon, James Cameron will invent virtual reality and avatars.
As for responding to good ‘ld Prok above, as he constantly sees no malice in attacking ‘fellow avatars’ on their ‘first life’ identities – and very personal parts of those the least, it is not but just that not just ‘he’, but also ’she’ (we still don’t know who’s puppeteering whom) is held responsible for those outragious statements.
I’m sure if she did not only keep to the ToS, but also only slightly to the social norms that did arrise over time in the Second Life and SLbloggers community, no harm would have come over the search ranking of her RL identity on Google.
Instead of Second Life, how about calling it Second Work? Job²?
This made me tear up, Dusan. Nicely, nicely put
I am a person with a physical challenge, married to someone with a different challenge. It was a very nice change to have a TAB (Temporarily Able Bodied) writer express what many of us have felt for some time. Thank you for validating from the other side of an unnecessary social divide.
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » Linden Lab’s Grid for Business: It’s All Work [...]
[...] http://dusanwriter.com/index.php/2009/07/26/the-birth-of-the-private-second-life-grids/ [...]
[...] something which I wrote about following the 3DTLC conference in February. At the time, I called this the shift from “why” to “what”, and the hot button topics weren’t [...]
Well, Dusan. This is awfully infomercialy. I’m trying to parse through it, and also mindful of these discussions here:
Rezzable snark and dismissal and an IBM infomerical:
http://ow.ly/iuwD
The debate around Beth Noveck’s visit, which is partly about some roleplayers’ saying cynically, “why bother with VWs that aren’t ready when nobody wants their fantasy invaded” to my more alarmed concern that “government already welded social media right into the White House, look out, VWs at least prototype if not get welded too” to a Linden saying ominously “I will delete you”. Sigh.
then there’s the Linden’s own infomercial, which is actually pretty well done if you haven’t seen it yet:
http://work.secondlife.com/whyslwork/whatis/
I think all of this has lots of good stuff in it and I don’t think in fact the Lindens are guilty of hyping their platform, really, they’re realistic for example about avatar limits.
But I wonder why they so zealously drive people to solution providers as if everyone really needs expensive handholders (like yourself lol!)
I’d be happier if there was more of a broader pitch to groups of all kind, so that nonprofits or a neighbourhood committee could get value out of it too. I’m hoping to try an experiment like this myself soon.
The other thing that I find discomforting is this aggressive isolation. Philip used to tell us that we didn’t have to worry about corporations coming to SL because they’d all be hidden on islans and closed off to the public and we’d never see them. But…on the other hand the Lindens keep talking this good game about the rich robust world teeming with resident-made content, and then refer people to XStreetSL to go and buy whiteboars and business skins.
What that suggests to me is that they are creating a sort of elite content creation class among the gold providers who interact with the biz islands and sell to them — and, well, it’s yet another institutionalization of the FIC. This already began, of course, back in 2006-2007 when naturally those with the big solutions provider contracts put their friends’ stores on the islands or hustled their friends’ content to corporations. That’s all “normal” in SL, of course but…I really would like all this to work more toward an open society, a real civil society online.
And that brings me to your point about “the agenda” being set. At one level, it seems great to have online communities having a virtual outlet or inlet to manifest themselves, on the other hand, for all the reasons I’ve invoked around Beth Noveck and the awfulness of the White House blogs I really actively worry how that is going to turn out, especially when we have the TOS and “I will delete you” Lindens on hand.
If I wasn’t already completely worried about Beth’s theories in the last 4 years from going to obscure SL meetings or reading obscure journals, I’d be actively worried by looking at how the social media MMORPGy web site works, with its double-plus good proposals crafted by unseen munchkins and voting of people’s comments up or down into the memory hole — and then rapid closing of every topic, synthesizing of best proposals, and closing off further debate.
It’s such a sharp contrast to Metanomics. As you know, I’m a big critic about Metanomics but I feel my criticism is about making it better. And we have to acknowledge the great achievement of Metanomics which is the institutionalization of the backchat and the multiple streams on different sims of chat around the event that becomes a legitimate aspect of that event and its knowledge and information.
Link to the Linden Blog about Beth Noveck:
https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/workinginworld/blog/2009/07/21/white-house-deputy-cto-held-mixed-reality-event-in-second-life
Prok – hmm…well, I suppose the post is a bit self-promotional, although I didn’t mean it to be. I kind of feel like I was trying to draw from experience more than pitch something, not unlike how you use your experience with your in-world business to draw wider points.
I hope that Metanomics IS a model for enterprise, or non-profits, or whoever, and that more things like it keep popping up – because it’s the back chat where the real lessons come from and maybe, and the tweets and the blog comments and the cross-posts. What start as fairly institutionalized messages – the latest study, say, or someone pitching Forterra or Blue Mars or whatever…become a source of discussion, criticism, cynicism on occasion or downright snark. But there are some lessons in that, and it has something to do with being transparent, and open to the slings and arrows, because maybe they help to hone our understanding, or give us a read on where we stand in a community, whatever.
There’s a weird balance though that it feels like Metanomics needs to try to keep – and it’s the balance between, hmmm….I’ll call it ‘authority’ or maybe Rob would prefer ‘curated exploration’, and the kind of tribal chant that I’ve seen at some in-world events where it’s more like a mob than an intelligent discussion.
I’ve railed about the shift to a tribal morality because I don’t think people are thinking through or articulating more broadly what we give up, when social order and the ‘wikification’ of knowledge dilutes individual knowledge and expression. I’m not saying tribal morality is de facto wrong, but rather that taken to extremes its no different than the extremes of a property-based one…we need to continually be aware of where the edges are.
For enterprise, the challenges include things like balancing the voice that you give to customers in how new products and services should be designed, and faith in your own powers to give them something that they might not even recognize they want until they see it.
Again, virtual worlds are one site from which to view these challenges.
As for the Lindens – I’m less worried about enterprise being behind firewalls or whatever, and am more worried about the other silos that are being created. I know that with clients we talk to, they about split between people looking at being on the main grid, and those who for different reasons need to be behind a firewall, or who have a narrow goal that doesn’t require the rest of it. You still hope that they sign up for the public Grid though, and experience some of the real magic that happens in a pick-up event or the back chat at a community forum.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Lab launch an “Education” sub-domain maybe, or a “Not-for-Profit” one (competing http//:betterverse.org probably).
It’s not the partitioning off and firewalls, it’s the possibility that we lose the serendipity on the main Grid which makes it so vibrant. If users are categorized, sent down certain paths, and end up living out their days on the education continent or the adult continent or some corner of Mainland whose purpose isn’t quite clear anymore, then we risk ending up with ghettos of shared interests, when what I love about SL is finding shared experiences with those whom I have nothing, seemingly, in common.
But if they can pull off the balancing act of providing streams of access for different user groups, AND launch a new viewer and an ad campaign or something so they reach that 5 million monthly user thing that M talked about, then maybe the Grid will be big enough to contain it all, and developer FIC or not, maybe there will be enough opportunity to go around.
[...] Linden Lab’s Grid for Business: It’s All Work [...]
Thanks for that Dusan, it was exactly the kind of inspirational post I needed, having recently suffered the ‘isn’t it all sex, what are those silly names, why not use WebEx, it must run in a browser’ types of knockbacks. And when you say ‘HTML-on-a-prim’ will come, well, it’s my turn for shameless self promotion – I have a working clickable, scrollable web browser in SL. So I guess it’s kinda here already.
Neil – I know your tool I think, great work! I know what you mean by knock-backs, they happen – I find the wall is usually with the IT people…can get a champion and then someone punctures the tires. But you get better at anticipating where the trouble will come from and arming the champions with the right materials.
More generally though, I love the line in the new book by the guy who started Frog. He talks about innovation, and how to sell ‘new ideas’, especially when you can make a rational argument for returns, clear goals, all that. And his closing argument is:
“OK, so maybe this isn’t for you. But if we execute this plan for your competitors, and it works like we say it will, where will that leave you.”
Now, for that to work, WE have to work – to make sure we have a very clear value proposition and a plan that’s “big enough” and strategic enough that if we use that line above it will give someone pause.
Having said that, I recognize that we ARE still at innovator phase, and not everyone wants to risk being innovative, so we just kind of move on.
Eventually the world will see what we’re talking about, right?
[...] Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » Linden Lab’s Grid for Business: It’s All Work – Virtual worlds and creativity, business, collaboration, and identity. [...]
Hi Dusan
Not sure you would know my web tool as it’s not available yet, however it does feature in a video demo I recently shot, as part of a new CMS which has meeting in SL to discuss content built in. I need to edit and caption the video, but it get’s the point across. The browser and also a noteboard tool I’ve created feature from midway on. http://www.screencast.com/t/loWAgxV53YY
Like the line from Frog – filing that away
Gotta love technology!!
“Thanks, but we use GoToMeeting. It doesn’t use cartoons or have all that sex stuff.” Anonymous CTO
Very well said! I worked with a guy who’d had childhood polio and had never danced, although he was a fierce jazz guitarist. We worked at a state university, but through his eyes I saw the ramps that he struggled with and the pain he had every day. He passed away a few years ago, but I’ll never forget his positive outlook and fighting spirit.
As for artificial intelligence, maybe I’m naive but with all the bugs Vista has, I’m skeptical that computers could ever be smarter than us.
I have built a a steady business in Second Life. I think there is a big sink in the past few years: quality. The quality of goods has increased very much. People don’t wear old clothes because they don’t look as good as new ones. This simulates wear and tear.
There is also churn of fashion. Last spring everyone was a neko. This spring everyone was a vampire.
Wear and tear is not what stops people wearing most clothes. They feel they are “old”.
i like this game
[...] can now officially retract my previous post where I stated: “But I’m also a big believer that this should be facilitated within a [...]
“The Lab made very clear in this post that tools such as the one proposed by Rezzable are against the TOS” …
Don’t you mean … The lab made very clear in this post that *using* tools such as the one proposed by Rezzable *to move content created by others* is against the TOS? Is the tool itself a violation of the TOS? Or is it a particular use of the tool that is the problem? Nothing in that excerpt suggests that LL has a problem with a content creator using the tool to extract their own creations…
To paraphrase the gun rights activists:
Rezzable’s tools don’t steal content. People steal content.
Jenniver, I’m not sure how they could be more clear when they say:
“As we have said in the past, the use of CopyBot or similar copying tools to infringe others’ intellectual property is a violation of our Terms of Service and may result in suspension or banning of infringers’ Second Life accounts, including any alternate accounts.”
So yes, it is the use of the tools, but they go further and say that the tools themselves need to be developed against standards:
“We are looking for thoughtful ways to balance the tools’ usefulness for intellectual property owners against the potentially bad purposes that they may be put to. We will be listening, watching, and reaching out to members of the community.”
and
“To those developing copying tools, we urge the simultaneous development of standard industry practices that protect against intellectual property infringement.”
Their implication is that following this discussion period, and upon broad agreement of what those standards should be, the Lab will act accordingly to protect IP.
So, they are fairly clearly invoking a move towards regulating, or at least setting standards for the tools themselves.
This idea that “people steal content” is ridiculous. When you are able to place restrictions and guidance on the tools themselves, as the Lab is in a position to do, saying that it’s not the tools that are the problem but the people using them is erroneous.
Yes, it’s people who copy the content. But providing them with the tools to do so easily means that more people will find it easier to copy more content. When you can put barriers in place, why wouldn’t you? Those barriers can be standards, enforcement, policy, and technology.
Having said that, I agree that content creators should be able to extract and back-up their own content and I didn’t imply or state anywhere that this shouldn’t be the case.
The Lab made clear that the tool Rezzable proposed WAS against the TOS because they made clear that copying others’ content (not your own) is against the TOS without a system and documentation of licensing; they made clear that the tools need to be released against standards that reflect this; and that copying others’ content IS stealing and is punishable.
Rezzable, of course, decided NOT to release a “full sim, everyone’s content can get vacuumed up” tool, and if they have perm checks in place then more power to content creators.
Hey, if I were currently immersed in writing a book explaining set theory, it would have sounded like that to me too, I’m sure.
[...] She’s been the star in numerous machinima projects (and some porn), a secret operative during wandie games, rubbed elbows in clubs owned by people who would never let “JellyBean Madison” in and [...]
Ditto.
I think I am among the minority of SL Residents who actually has a lot of faith in Linden Lab at least always trying to do the right thing, as long as it maintains or improves their own mission and business prospects. It doesn’t mean I always agree and that I am never frustrated with anything they say or do, but I do understand 95% of all they say or do (the ‘gaming’ ban is still an area I wish they would revisit, but suspect it has more to do with script usage and agent limits on sims than anything moral or otherwise.)
I have said many times that I believe Linden Lab hears us and they really do react. Sometimes it is simple miscommunication, such as the removal from search results for those running “traffic bots” or “camping systems” – *not* any other kind of ‘ban’ or other ‘disciplinary’ action, which people complain, whine and get all in a tizzy about.
Sometimes it is outright mistakes, albeit genuine mistakes, such as the original introduction of “Openspace” sim availably to the public at large. (Can you say “New Coke”?) – Jack and Linden Lab should have created the “Homestead” variety first or at least roll-out such a product incerementally, slowly, see what the result it and then adjust availablity accordingly.
And then sometimes outright stupidly, dumfoundedly wrong, such as the raising of tiers on these Openspace sims by drastic amounts; rather than simply placing the restrictions (scripts and agent count) first; then raising tier through attrition, or the one-day deadline to eliminate any and all “games of chance” rather than do as they did when they eliminated “return-based investments” with a 90-day ‘ramp-down’ window.
All in all, I believe those in the wheelhouse of Linden Lab are genuinely trying to do right in such a way as to benefit the Second Life community *as a whole* – because that is where their business lies. They tried the hands-off routine. The beginning of the end of that, where their hand was forced to begin adding to policy, I believe, was during the “age-play’ fiasco and that German “news” orginazation (which really wasn’t – it’s a tabloid) and Linden lab *tried* to remain hands-off and allow the circuis to right itself.
But now, Linden Lab, because of certain events, the loudest ‘whiners’ and business plan adoptions and corrections must now begin ’steering’ or ‘directing’ the way residents act and police activities where the self-policing just didn’t work, or didn’t work well or fast enough.
I’ve written my own response to this “I.P. Roadmap” at Common Sensible (will publish Thursday morning) and proclaim this roadmap is just that: a ‘map’ and we don’t know how close to the stated intentions they will be able to remain. At least their intentions are in the right place.
But in the end, I really do believe Linden Lab and it’s employees are genuinely trying to ‘do right by the residents’.
Please allow me to stand and applaud Linden Lab with you on this move.
LL is “protecting” its own liability. Any item created by a user is their IP and they own it. LL is just licensing via TOS the usage of that expression. If they allow a third party- like rezzable to interfere with “their” offered management of anothers IP, they can be found liable, thus the announcement as constructed.
if LL attempts realife solutions for content management they will be “sellable” to the realworld, not the under 15 mental set. If they attempt “wiki solutions” and “gameable ratings toys” and the usual old SL “community” managment gimmicks, the SL grid will continue to demise, and the company will be as Forterra, or Croquet, or many others, just trying to sell corporate 3d chat rooms. PLUS they still have the huge albatross of the last few years “wild west” approach to raising income with “cute advertising slogans”- “IP violations of major corporate brands and properties” and “general consumer affairs issues not resolved financially”.
“the time to put away childish things” has not only struck Americas realities, but its latest SL children in virtuality as well….
Children who i suggest visit the post/issues around exitreality ( who just bought out vsides assets-another dead metafav place of pundits)
and the “web3d search/copy/ use with no pay or credits” search engine they placed on the web only 9 months ago or so…
http://news.hiperia3d.com/2008/09/worst-of-exitreality.html
it sucked up a decades of nonDRM vrml web3d from unknowing first generation vrml designers and attempted to present it, resell it/ package it as their own for their commecial interests… the few “obsolete vrml” designers who caught this werent very happy…. and now when a rezzable or the core of LL future biz plans hold millions of pieces of work/content of others in hostage to their -motives– only then does it become “important”..;)
growing up isnt only about getting to drink and screw legally folks…;)
learn from history, even if its only 9 months old.:)
c3
@Ari – look forward to your post. Link it over!
@Cube – Do you offer Cube3 interpretation courses? Sometimes I feel like I’m reading another language.
In any case, what you say sounds profound and really important, and of course hearkens back to the 90s as always, but I really can’t tell whether you think this is good or whatever.
Anyways, love ya – you always give me something to puzzle over.
It is all meaningless.
Against TOS or not – it will be used (and certainly by REZZABLE).
Not until the viewer becomes proprietary. (no longer Open Source), all texture and prim data encrypted, and access to the server requiring a passkey obfuscated withing the compiled Viewer code, will there be any hope of content security.
Al – what I find interesting is the question of hitting the ’sweet spot’ in content security – because I’m going to take it as a given that there will never be 100% security, and so wonder whether there’s some sort of magic line where there’s “enough” security (and I don’t mean enough technology protection, I mean security as provided by: policy, enforcement, communication, and creation of social norms) that the remaining percentage of ‘rippers’ is a nuisance and damaging but out-weighed by a culture where content protection is far more the norm than its opposite.
nope, no EZ lessons or cliff notes…
ya gotta work at the meaning..everything has a cost.
The “reality” of 3d content/IP and its value as “seen” by “vc funded programmers” is as current at 9 months ago or 9 years ago…. and only “seems” new in SL blogs 9 hrs ago.
Do i think what is good?
LL’s finally addressing “real” things?- Yes
All the time/money many spent again needlessly?- No;)
“security sweetspot”
seems its no problem for many in 2d media. Or in 3d gaming. Or using so many services online for a decade.
owners of property put the protections on their property.
USER(slave) GEN biz plans to gather many eyeballs or offer some ’service” other than the creation of the content offered– will always err to allow the greatest distribution of that content, all to build their “brand equity” and “valuation” to the others in the same room as them.
notice BTW- YAHOO is now “officially” a MEDIA company now…lol
“nope, no EZ lessons or cliff notes…
ya gotta work at the meaning..everything has a cost.”
Actually, it’s beholden of the person communicating to make sure people get the message in most of civilized society. Why would you expect someone to work at understanding you when you’re not willing to work at BEING understandable? Not a flame. Just an honest opinion.
The same thing applies to Rezzable, IMO. Why do they expect people to trust them that this is the right move when they weren’t willing to work with LL on it in the first place? Now that they’ve created an uproar, they’re suddenly telling everyone how it doesn’t matter because there’s no such thing as digital rights anyway.
Itazura Radio had it right on Coronaverse. They are going to make it open and are discounting the whole “builderbot as a service” idea because they know that there’s not enough of a market for LEGITIMATE use of the tool. Maybe a handful of people will ever need it, until there’s an SL-compatible (opensim based) world that content builders are migrating to in huge droves. Right now, that market doesn’t exist, I’m willing to bet. If there was a legitimate use, they’d try to do something with it which they couldn’t figure out how to do in SL in the first place, make some money.
same thing for civilized folk?
YOU get to choose if what i offer has any meaning or requires a deeper examination for any value.
rezzable though attempted to affect you via actions that you had NO control/ or choice toward the actions they would/could take.
theres a difference? yes? beyond an opinion.;)
The Importance Of Identity When Doing Business in Virtual Worlds
Repost of my SL Revolution blog of February 4, 2009
I want to thank Dusan Writer for the inspiration for this blog post. I read Dusan’s Blog on a regular basis and the text of this blog post is actually my reply to his …post entitled: “I Am Not Really Me and I Probably Never Will Be: Avatars and Actual Identity.”
I share my real name/identity via my LinkedIn profile, with those I want to do business with. This type of disclosure is likely more important to people/businesses that are new to virtual worlds, as it allows them to quickly establish their “brands” value.
Doing business without the benefit of legal identities, has the potential to leave you vulnerable to a whole host of problems such as:
* Contract Enforcement
* Insufficient Tax Documentation
* Copyright/IP Prosecution/Defense
* Non-disclosure Exposure
With respect to contracts; Benjamin Franklin said “an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.” In business, a single business dispute can ruin you. Written contracts are the “ounce of prevention” that can eliminate costly disputes. Although it may happen in the future, I know of no legal precedents for avatars to execute or defend enforceable contracts.
The tax issue is the growing 300lb (soon to be 800lb) gorilla in the room. It won’t be long before taxing authorities compel the reporting of Virtual World income. I consider it to already be an ethical requirement. If you want to deduct Virtual World expenses, you had better be prepared to identify the recipient, be it a business or individual, of your payments.
Copyright and IP issues are another area of growing concern. What if someone doing work for you “unintentionally” “borrows” IP from another company, goes MIA and the IP owner sues you? How do you subpoena someone you don’t know for your defense?
Protecting your ideas via non-disclosure agreements (NDAs) is another area where real identities are required. If you don’t require NDAs of people who do work for you, you are asking to have your ideas & Trade Secrets stolen.
I realize many of these arguments are philosophically distasteful. I regret that “business can no longer be run on a handshake and a gentleman’s agreement.” Whether we like it or not the reality is that knowing people’s real identities is important in today’s business world, even when that world is “Virtual.”
I recently attended a ThinkBalm event and wore a Group Title of my PW (Physical World) given name … aka Valiant Westland the entire time. I didn’t feel pressured to do this and it was great to connect via LinkedIn to many of my fellow presenters and other attendees.
If Flaubert hadn’t been Madame Bovary we never would have known Madame Bovary. I don’t know what we would have gotten in *her* place, perhaps *his* contact list.
Insofar as I have no interest in virtuality beyond (or beneath) its potential for aesthetic autonomy I can happily report “ichabod Antfarm, c’est moi.” It genuinely saddened me to read that you, Dusan, have somewhat, if not wholly, lost the ability to report the same of yourself.
Thank you Ichabod. That isn’t something that I’ve posted about before and it really deserves a far longer post rather than an off-handed mention. I’ve been struggling to find a way to articulate it without veering into the debate about augmentationism vs. immersionism, which I don’t think does justice to what I’ve discovered through my own personal journeys with avatar identity.
I was struck by a comment that followed Erica’s post by another participant:
“It is an interesting area as this plays to each individuals needs in communication and their personal neuro linguistic programming stack.”
Which echoes “Create Your Own Economy”, a book that I highly recommend, and which explores the influence and nature of the Internet against the backdrop of understanding neurodiversity and autism. It proposes that in an era of rapid information and dispersed community, that we would be well advised to look to neurodiversity and autistics as a way of understanding how we order information and express identity.
The author proposes that by looking at autism not as a disability but rather as an expression of neurodiversity that we might learn more about how we as people and a culture might thrive in this ‘information era’ and understand how we can more effectively frame our understanding of the change going on around us. He very specifically mentions Second Life and discusses on-line identity as an important means by which we overcome our neurological prejudices.
Perhaps at the end of the day, my avatar identity was an important vehicle by which I have been able to understand the many ways in which I frame my perspective in the world, often without realizing it, because it provides the opportunity to unshackle my social persona from how I think and feel and through that decoupling allows me to take a fresh look at the ways in which I order knowledge and experience.
I understand what Valiant is saying, but on the other hand we’re not talking here about contracts or IP rights or any of the rest of it….we’re talking about building interesecting areas of interest and exploration towards creating a more robust vision of what virtual worlds can do, where they’re headed, and how they can be ’sold’.
Sometimes, the best ideas will come from someone who has ‘gotten out of their skin’ and is able to think and create in ways which are only possible because their avatars have become a repository not just for forms of on-line identity, but for creative viewpoints that might be more difficult to express otherwise.
I very much believe that “augmentation versus immersion” is just another binary straight jacket that only some mighty act of Hegelianism will overcome so I very much look forward to your next post on the subject
Then again, perhaps we overcome it by simply living it since life (second, or otherwise) rarely pays heed to the intellectual categories that supposedly organize it, or where it does, it does so in ways far subtler than our simple oppositions can express. Nevertheless, it is still fun to read and write about such weighty things.
As such, I’ve often thought about autism and “neuro-diversity” in the context of Second Life because I have encountered it often enough both in the world and *cough* on some other blogs and would appreciate a book on the subject that rises above *any* ideological position (assuming such a thing is possible!) It seems that Asperger’s Syndrome is the new schizophrenia; in a sense, the voice we created by refusing to listen to it. I suppose if you want to listen to Gould’s Goldberg’s you also have to put up with the humming. Mind you, I happen to enjoy the Sing Along to Bach thing
btw, I don’t think I own a “personal neuro linguistic programming stack”; if I did, I’m sure I wouldn’t know how to plug it in, let alone how to turn the contraption on.
Hmm, I was so busy responding to your post that I didn’t bother to read it. So,
“Sometimes, the best ideas will come from someone who has ‘gotten out of their skin’ and is able to think and create in ways which are only possible because their avatars have become a repository not just for forms of on-line identity, but for creative viewpoints that might be more difficult to express otherwise.”
Hammer, meet nail on the head.
Let me clarify, I would never propose that avatar identity be restricted to one’s physical identity, much like I would never insist that an artist or author use something other than a stage/pen name for their work. I also share the belief that a certain level of anonymity can be “liberating.”
My own first-hand experience as an “avatar” began when I was 15 and working as a bus-boy at a place called The Red Lion. The “duty” I looked forward to the most, was dressing up in a Red Lion costume, standing out by a busy road and attracting the attention of potential customers. It was completely liberating! I danced, cavorted and swung my tail, all in complete and joyous anonymity.
Who I was in the Red Lion costume was an honest express of “me.” However, when I went to apply for my first “real” job as an electronics salesman a year later, I didn’t go dressed as a lion. I wore the most professional clothing I had, and introduced myself with my given name.
The “Madame Bovarys” of the Virtual world certainly have a place, just as mimes, mascots, masquerade balls and Marilyn Monroes (Norma Jean Bakers) do in the PW (Physical World). I will continue to applaud their creative expression and even slip on the SL version the old “lion suit” (an 8′ tall winged knight)when I want to play.” But when it’s time to get work done, you’ll see me in SL as I am behind the keyboard, with shoes polished, shirt pressed and a LinkedIn profile and identity that shows I mean business.
Ichabod – if I can, I’ll try to ramble on about it this weekend, this issue certainly has me thinking (again!). Wish I had more time now to respond – maybe more later.
Valiant – you press your shirt and polish your shoes to log in to a virtual world? I think you’re missing 95% of the value proposition. HAHAHAHA.
I’m going to add another comment here that I made on the ThinkBalm thread which was in response to the idea that these issues arise primarily from virtual worlds. This is slightly edited:
I have to argue with the claim that these issues arise from virtual worlds. Perhaps it’s my perspective – a large portion of my clients are in the health field. Issues of identity and transparency are critical issues in this field, and we grapple with this frequently.
Supporting a community of individuals with HIV for example, or patients who have breast cancer and want to participate in on-line forums, or asking physicians to participate in collaborative efforts to ‘fix’ the healthcare system – we approach these challenges with a knowledge that proxy identities are often not only preferred but are often legally required in the absence of HIPAA or other compliance statutes.
So, the concept of identity proxies is, first, not unique to virtual worlds.
Second, I would propose that one of the biggest challenges facing enterprise today, especially in light of the new push by the FCC Consumer Protection Branch to regulate the ability of companies to collect real life identity information and to collate that against other data pools, is the challenge of understanding the new concepts of identity portfolios and how consumers and employees are expressing themselves in different forums, including on-line.
I’m really surprised when I hear people claiming that we’re moving towards a more transparent world in which our real life identities are fully portable across the various identity ‘repositories’ that we create on-line. It may be true that more information about us is being put on-line, but this is coupled with a trend towards more ways in which we can partition parts of our identity portfolios.
I may use Facebook with friends, and LinkedIn for business and there may be overlap between the information, but more and more individuals are constructing separate personas for themselves in order to feel enabled against the onslaught of corporate control of our data.
THIS, in fact, is the natural evolution:
- As more data about ourselves is put online, corporations have more of an incentive to use that data for commercial purposes
- In the face of light regulation, this data can be misused or, at the least, make people feel uncomfortable
- As a consequence, individuals increasingly turn to ways in which they can mask or partition parts of their identity so that they maintain some level (however illusory) of control over what is known about them and by whom.
When I talk to clients, I talk to them about how it will become increasingly difficult to find their “true customers” – that they need to look at identity proxies as an important component to how they think about who their customer is.
…..I’d like to be on the side of looking back from the future and being able to say: “Yes, we saw this coming, but I tried to lend some small voice to our individual right to who we are, and how we wish to express that, and in what ways that expression is formulated, and that while corporations continued their push to maintain the status quo approach to understanding identity, I was willing to both push back a little, but also to point out that in many ways, they are missing the point, that they closed off an avenue to the future which the rest of us were already living.”
And not to get toooo far out there – but these issues will become even more complicated when our on-line identities are fueled by both our individual self-expression and automated intelligence. The ‘avatars of the future’, whether in virtual worlds or on-line generally, will perform through a combination of both “live” control and artificial intelligence.
The identity questions will only get more confusing, in other words, as time goes on. I personally think that attempts to create this tight coupling of “identity” with “online persona” is mistaken in that it neglects how this stuff will REALLY turn out.
Finally – I admit that maybe I’m crazy. Or maybe my clients are. I don’t negate the challenges people have advocating for or selling virtual worlds, and I realize that the easiest thing to do is say “yeah, of course you see the ‘real person’”…but I find that answering those questions in another way actually opens up more opportunities for me, but maybe that’s just the kind of discussion I manage to get with my customers, either that or they all think I’m crazy and just don’t want to tell me, um, in person.
How ironic: I’m reading Madame Bovary for my local women’s book club this month. So far: excellent book.
Ugh.
fake ID in realife interactions is all for the fakers benefit.its a POWER play. nothing shiny here.
identity revelation is about trust and cosequenses… and if you havent noticed, linden lab/SL and its TAO and all its “fanz” and mechanisms, really DONT show much trust or giving a damn about the others affects. You read Malabys outsider view of the mirror maze that the tech culture or any “no overview-no consequenses” system brings.
bring on the white holopod machines to stop (1909)..:),
the DELUSION that humans havent mediated their environment for 50k years, and that a 3d pixelated “mask” can provide any lessons beyond those of a “wooden mask” is a true sign of MIPS.. media induced pyschosis.
Dusan,where did this posts ideology come from? Are you reading too much fake press. too much half truths blogged as half a reality ? do your examples have fact checking- any evidence, behind them.
I doubt a “thinkbalm” is needed or will truly provide any “new” answers..lol but in this case. they dont have to be “new” and “shiny”.. they are just making good assumptions using 10k years of human interactions as a path to balance.
the irony of the “virtual worlds-engage” conferneces in NY in 2006-7? being at the jewish museum never ceases to amaze me.
Cube – um, not sure what you mean by “where did this post’s ideology come from” and half truths and whatnot. Think of it simply as one approach to policy”
“We’re a professional group looking at virtual worlds and we believe all our members should reveal their real identities”.
They can do that. I have no issue with their right to do so. And it is guided by a business ideology I suppose.
But it opens up that fascinating tangent into issues of identity which have been going on, as you point out, for 1000s of years. I’ve never claimed these issues are new, I just think that on-line identity is bringing them to the fore again and in often new (in the sense of mediated in new ways) and fascinating ways.
howdy dusan,
1. as to “half truths” I point to the “avatars” actions/activities etc you claim offer “insight” or “something”– without real information the only “truth” is what you believe or perceive, and thats not a real foundation for interaction in any honest way. Online “avatars” doing this/that etc lay claims everday…and the reality behind the claims or how they got the “deal” are usaully grounding in very old ways that dont require any new media examination at all..:)
2.for you to “guess” in your writings that a business ideology equates with a civic ideology is the issue im getting at. if anything was shown by the LL experiment, it was that they dont mix most-”all?” of the time.
3. the “gamerz” ideologies that today gets, whitehouse validity via these folk at conferences:to equate game methods/goals to civic methods/goals is also the issue im getting at. it seems that the only choices in the blog culture your speaking to- and from is- CORPORATE or TOYS/GAMEZ for virtuality…nothing else can be valid..
Has television already mediated the tech socierty to that of only ENTERTAINMENT drones…Why cant anything but a VIDEO GAME be better if difficult to aquire.(last posts question to a post i made)
Can we accept “corporate ethics” as an oxymoron today as easily as “blogger journalist”.?
Im asking not about hammers seeing nails, but about hammers deluding themselves and others into seeing screws as the better target.
One thing that makes me think “I will never ever sign up to any programme of this sort” is this – that Linden Labs has a *very bad record* when it comes to disclosure of RL identity.
Their current procedure regarding the DMCA, for instance, is to automatically disclose the RL identity of the defendant to any DMCA claim filer. This is not at all required by law, they are doing that because they want to. Under what other circumstances might one expect one’s RL identity to be disclosed?
And, you know, anybody who is not concerned about that – augmentationist or immersionist – is either impregnably defended by lawyers, ignorant or stupid. In other names I moderate bulletin boards, and even that can get one death threats and unwanted phone calls and visits.
“its always facinating until someone puts an eye out..;)” anon the avatr
[...] who was instrumental in building Second Life, left under, um, prompting from Philip Rosedale. In fact, his employment was terminated by e-mail as I [...]
Anyone who doesn’t see this as an important issue is probably so fixed in their personna that any deviation from the Myth of the Integrated Personality is just to frightening for them to contemplate.
Why can’t I do business under a variety of names? I certainly know how to socialise thus.
I am no more likely to rob or cheat someone under my real name… look at Bernard Madoff….that was his real name…20billion US.
Petition: Bring back Cory to scrap the code and start over.
uh, its been suggested he was a sociopathic personality.
so now sociopathic and autistic brainsets are to be the norm? ?
the myth of the intergrated personality?– you mean the average normal socially functioning folk?
and when corporations do alot of business, under many names, thats usally to hide something–
So can we now also think of corey as just another programmer?;) can we leave the myth of the integrated game god and move on?;)
I’ve been banging on the content protection drum for about 1.5 years now and while I am glad to hear it finally being addressed, LL and other providers of tools and products that FACILITATE the creation of content need to be careful here. From a legal point of view stating that people can’t take the content they create from Second Life could easily been seen as an Anti-Trust issue. Here’s a definition of Anti-Trust and Restraint of Trade from a legal stand point:
Restraint of Trade
http://www.answers.com/topic/restraint-of-trade
Contracts or combinations that tend, or are designed, to eliminate or stifle competition, create a Monopoly, artificially maintain prices, or otherwise hamper or obstruct the course of trade as it would be carried on if it were left to the control of natural economic forces.
As used in the Sherman Anti-Trust Act (15 U.S.C.A. § 1 et seq.), unreasonable restraints of trade are illegal per se and interfere with free competition in business and commercial transactions. Such restraint tends to restrict production, affect prices, or otherwise control the market to the detriment of purchasers or consumers of goods and services. A restraint of trade that is ordinarily reasonable can be rendered unreasonable if it is accompanied by a Specific Intent to achieve the equivalent of a forbidden restraint.
Combination in Restraint of Trade
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Combination+in+Restraint+of+Trade
An illegal compact between two or more persons to unjustly restrict competition and monopolize commerce in goods or services by controlling their production, distribution, and price or through other unlawful means.
While I greatly understand the texture and sculpty artist’s worries over content protection in their particular business model, their announcements about restricting their use to SL only can not legally be applied to purchases before restrictions were stated and have to be included in the product and clearly announced at the time of purchase. Furthermore, if someone creates textures or sculpties design to assist content creators in making their goods and sells them full rights, the suggestion that they then have the right to restrict a creators choice of selling venue is probably not going to stand up to a court of law. That would be like an artist buying oil paints and reading in the small print that they can only sell it through the store they bought the paint in. Its simply too far reaching and unsustainable in a court of law, which I am sure LL’s legal department is well aware of.
Yes, the texture and sculpt artist have a right to restrict their products from being sold by themselves as a product, but they don’t have the right to tell people who use them, where and how they can sell them.
Yes, LL gives themselves equal rights to any content created on their grid, but to say that gives them a right to restrict it to the Second Life grid is again, too far reaching legally speaking and won’t stand up in even the most light inspection from a court of law.
LL’s IP rights stance has been heavily criticized for years by corporations, and one of the major reasons to not invest too much. While LL has fought to be looked at a simply a 3D hosting solution, but their stance on IP rights belied that. When was the last time your web hosting company reserved equal IP rights to your website and it potential revenues? GeoCities might come to mind for some, but their demise should be a warning to LL on this stance. They’ve been implored repeatedly for years to switch to a simple license to distribute that wouldn’t step on anyone’s toes and would make it perfectly legal to conduct their business.
Ultimately what needs to happen is a reality check here. NO ONE CAN OWN THE 3D WEB AND MAKE NO MISTAKE, THAT IS WHAT IS BEING BORN FROM ALL THIS. A grid war will ensue in the next two years and LL rightfully wants a stake in that. That’s fair and understandable. But to restrict a company or content provider’s ability to expand and compete outside their garden walls is just not legally sound and can only further erode their support from the community.
The solution here is allow this thing to grow and embrace the competition that comes of that. Everyone agrees LL and SL have made some real sustainable changes over the last year to reach out and listen to the community. But, having said that can we honestly say this would have happened without some healthy competition in the horizon? I thought this was LL’s intent when they released their client open source community? This can be done – protection of content without restricting its expansion onto other trusted grid systems, while still respecting the rights of content providers. We all just have to be willing to think outside the box on how to sell and control the distribution of our products and work together to settle disputes these mechanical solutions can’t address. And BTW, a simple change in how a DMCA is process is not going to achieve that IMHO.
Cube is right, that this issue surfaces periodically and everybody gets into a terrible clutch about it.
I realize that certain church ladies get into a dither about whose identity is what and want to force everybody to where those HELLO MY NAME IS BUD tags.
I walk around them. It’s not true that suppression of RL names is only related to entertainment. I have done business for years on this basis. There are people I pay to build things whose real names I have no idea about, nor could I find their locations. Sometimes I pay in Lindens, sometimes a PayPal that may only be a gmail name that’s made up.
I’ve had two building companies rip me off, one by building a mall on commission and then copying and plunking it down for another rentals agent and charging him as if he had developed it from scratch, too. I happened to stumble on to it flying around. Done all the time. Had another pair of guys take a down payment and flake. Happens all the time. I got better and feeling for the iffy ones and walking around them. It works the other way too, people ordering builds and not paying. Done all the time. Yet we have built this world. It isn’t the trauma everyone expects.
I’ve had a guy script an invention I conceived once and he turned out to be 16 or 17 and eventually got booted over to the teen grid. I’ve had people sign up to volunteer and do beautiful things and then I find they likely died in RL. And so on. It’s just how it is. Deal with it. It’s *how it is*. Don’t like it? Then, build in real life, I guess? Like Donald Trump.
Some of the nastiest people I’ve dealt with in SL are the people whose RL names are available even on their profile, or on their blogs. Unlike the skittish Andrew Keen who freaks at anonymity online, and believes abuse only comes with anonymity, I have to say that those assholes who had RL names were even worse than the anonymous nice people I met in SL who were sweetie pies. Some of the most solid, best people in SL with great reputations are those types of avataric personas you never get behind, because you don’t need to. Of course, you may wake up some day and discover they have gone Ginko, but of course, that happens in RL, too. I had a friend whose husband of 25 years just ran off with a barely 20 year old. No Second Life involved lol.
Humanity has been putting on masks through its entire existence.
Rememer the Duke, in Measure for Measure, when he disguises himself and returns to spy:
“Now shall we see/if power change purpoes/what our seemers be.”
indeed.
An “actuator” is a physical device controllable from the digital realm. Like a robot arm, for example. Easy to get hypnotized by MediaLabSpeak… miss real words.
haha – thanks Maggie!
I have been (half-heartedly, I admit) trying to focus for 2-1/2 years. Second Life is so vast, so interesting, and has so many distractions (Oooooo, sparklies! … Ooooo, art! … Ooooo, interactive content! … etc.) that it is very easy to ramble – verbally, metaphorically, and actually. Also, um, virtually. Good luck!
How many tabs do I have up? Between six and ten, depending on the day. =D I think the people attracted to virtual worlds tend to be dedicated multi-taskers. And you don’t ramble, Dusan—you have a wide variety of interests and experiences which are reflected in your writing style.
Awww you guys rock.
/me wanders idly off following a little wisp of some sort that just floated by
there is no CORE idea of SL systems as virtuality. thats should be apparent by what LL is and what they done for a decade.
LL- the business,morphs every few months to sustsain itself and self corrects for its existance not as any society, bit only as corporate buisness entity(avatar) sanctioned by the state of CA.usa..
Its expression,its product/service is based on only one ideology of how to use technology.
Virtuality- avatarzation SL style is not based on any past social lessons for a balanced society, it is directed from tech lessons for execution of actions and pyramid economics for its monetary survival.
The “concept” that SL or virtuality or technology as a whole offers any “new or better” ways of social interactions seems a falicy.
NO New forms of trust, respect, power plays/ social outcasting, or human inter-actions have been expressed. For any Second Life act, the truth is its aleady been expressed in real life , and for centuries.
The ONLY change technology offers is in its EASE and its WIDENESS and SPEED of affects that allow for the same human individual and GROUP identities to be considered as valid at a particular place or time and within a particular set of experiences learned.
I await some evidence that the affect of “avatar identity” leads to a better expression of the human psyche.
Until the “shiny of technology” is removed from our latest “offsprings” we wont truly treat them or ourselves fairly.
*wonders if he ought to review his profile*
… and I agree with Doreen. Having been exposed to more than just a little bit of ramb…er…wide variety of interests, there does seem to be a method to the madness. It’s not lost or dissociated, just occasionally distracted. I see that as a good thing. If everyone was so totally focused on what was directly in front of them, things like art, music, stories, and other vitally human expressions would be so BORING. It’s these little tracers and sparkles in the corners of our eyes that keep life interesting.
I am intrigued by Valiant’s account of his experience of being in the Lion suit. The following description of putting on the ironed shirt and polished shoes sounds to me like adoption of a ‘fake’ identity for business purposes. Does the ‘real name’ (for what they are worth) make any difference if the individual is masking their identity to make a good impression by wearing, say, a suit?
In many countries it is relatively trivial to change one’s name. Why would there be any greater or lesser transparency if I used my legal name after changing it?
He should go to one of the companies working on Open Sim, he would know how to fix the scripting bugs.
Transparency and trust *must* run hand in hand with working environments of any kind.
While I do not have any problems with folks who wish to protect their identities in a personal setting, by and large I have run in to *huge* issues with people who have not been transparent about their identity, availability or trustworthiness. It often leads to work not being done on time, extreme difficulty contacting said individual (it’s as easy as not logging in, ignoring email or clicking the invis box, after all), and leads to a *lot* of lost time and opportunity.
While identity is not the sole factor towards developing trust it is at the very least something to go on, as Valiant brought up in an earlier comment, towards developing accountability on both sides of the table. The willingness for both parties to trust each other is key in developing a positive and responsible working relationship.
By that same token, companies employing individuals who may wish to keep their true identities unpublicized should respect those wishes… but I think you would be hard pressed to find a company seeking to employ workers in any field who refused to provide RL name and contact info. Expecting such would be much like walking up to an office for employment, dropping off a resume with a fake name and address on it, and then calling back later to ensure they’d received a resume from ‘SexyBimbo21 Hot’.
Yes, we should all be able to work within our ‘Second Lives’ – but that doesn’t mean that all social, governmental and business conventions should be tossed out the window.
Yes, some of the ‘bigger names’ can get away with – and indeed market themselves based on – their avatar identities. But these are few and far between and I can guarantee you that at base level, they MUST deal with real world identity for tax purposes and DO NOT go around claiming they should be addressed by some made up name that holds no legality.
@Ordinal – As an addendum to your comment about DMCAs disclosing RL info to DMCA filers, I have filed three DMCAs in as many weeks as well as numerous times in the past. Not once ever – much less recently – have I ever received RL info about the people I filed against.
I *have* heard of similar issues with XstreetSL, prior to transfer to LL, and in such a case it involved not the RL info of the defendant, but the filer. I do not know if such continues to be the case under the site’s new management.
i should clarify – RL info of the filer was supposedly revealed upon counter-claim.
You like ICE as an acronym? I prefer mine – PIE – Persistent Immersive Environments = everyone likes PIE right?
[...] dusanwriter [...]
This is an exciting development, that a Linden launch of a new portal for business is coming this Fall. I want to learn more! I’ve always felt that groundbreaking work is being done in 3D virtual worlds, and that very soon, 2D Web will be a thing of the past except where it’s given a cameo in 3D Web. Prokofy, I read your comments and will have to read them a few more times to fully grasp what you are saying. For those of us which aren’t always reading about this topic, can you explain a bit more about what you mean, especially in the following paragraph of your first comment?
You said, “The debate around Beth Noveck’s visit, which is partly about some roleplayers’ saying cynically, ‘why bother with VWs that aren’t ready when nobody wants their fantasy invaded’ to my more alarmed concern that ‘government already welded social media right into the White House, look out, VWs at least prototype if not get welded too’ to a Linden saying ominously ‘I will delete you’. Sigh.”
I feel like you are referring to a lot of inside jokes which I can’t possibly understand unless you explain them.
PIE! Berry pie, peach pie, strawberry-rhubarb pie, lemon, pie, blueberry pie, custard pie…and quiche! Spinach quiche, mushroom-zuchinni quiche, hmmm, zuchinni!….
This is a long and interesting discussion. I am careful about my identity because we have yet to invent a proper way to handle identity in the realm of the internet.
Just to take a tiny bite out of what I am meaning… I see people falling all over themselves to pour their personal info and artifacts into facebook, who then owns this information that before would have required a private investigator to obtain. In this type of identity scenario, the user has limited control.
We simply do not have a good model for identity. My RL identity does not need or want attribution for what I do as Pais. I enjoy Pais having his own identity. In a way, his eventual identity to a responsible and legally eligible person is repudiated through the account with LL, however, my trust of them is limited.
When I saw Prok’s quote of Duke I thought about how I had to adjust to anonymity in SL. I was so used to introducing myself as a package of age, address, where i grew up, my education, my vocation, and so forth. However, all these are simply trappings that may or may not reflect our true selves. The challenge, as I saw it, was to use the avatar and text chat to channel myself without using the crutches of the RL to create that identity and personality for those I met.
Again, Linden Labs, along with the 3DTLC are positioning virtual worlds as a means for cost-savings within companies rather than as a competitive advantage and revenue generator. Well, this is a striking argument, but fundamentally flawed to date I believe. I’m still not convinced that there are cost savings to organizations to using virtual worlds for dispersed team meetings, or other uses as a learning tool. No one has addressed the level of effort it would take to install a secure “simulator”, configure it, maintain it, training programs for employees, hardware upgrades for workstations and redundant servers for hosting, and additional vertical real-estate in server racks, additional power consumption, etc.
What do they do once all this is up and there are no in-world stores to upgrade your hair or clothing? Everyone walks around without the ability to have their own unique identities in these “secure” environments. Well, the company could pay a bunch of developers in real US dollars to supply them, ring the cash register again.
I do believe however that all these concerns can and will be addressed. But real economic growth comes not from spending less money and finding ways to cut costs (like job losses). Technology should continue to allow us to be more efficient, better producers, and use technology for competitive advantage to build our top line. While I am an interested bystander in LL’s pursuit of SL in the workspace, I think they are missing the better strategic alternative; to create the SL platform into a competitive collaboration tool. Right now, Cisco and WebEx have LL beat hands down on collaboration and virtual meeting spaces in a package requiring lower-end workstations.
so if you are not your experiences and what you do based on them.? Who are you? Probably not someone worth knowing..;)
think about it.
amazing how “character” and “Character” are now beyond difference.
These blogs have become like every Twilight Zone episode realized.
Dusan, you should try to drive down to Silly Valley while youre here. SF is just a “set or fascade” the reality is 30 miles south. Go beyond tourist mode:)
Haha – I’ll try Cube….can I teleport?
I don’t know if I can agree with either land or attention being the only scarce resource in SL. Land is certainly not scarce at the moment, and for the right price, you can have LL create an entire new sim of your own. I get the argument about attention, but Dusan’s advice on how to get people to “look at me” and the number of visitors daily to certain areas doesn’t seem to support the idea of attention scarcity, just the differences in marketing success or value proposition.
It would seem that resources are the scarcity within SL. This is supported by having 1,000,000 chairs, but not being able to rez them where ever you wanted. LL has created this scarcity because of real-world hardware and software limitations. With the number of avatars on mainland set at 40 and discussion of limiting scripting resources and numbers on sims as well, I think you’ve both missed the mark. But this is not to say that both posts were not thoroughly insightful to read.
Ah, Maslow, a model as Prokofy above put it, “attention to organic needs are more basic”, compared to virtual worlds is highly accurate. And I see where Dusan has attempted to draw his own hierarchy of needs in the virtual world to support a new business model concept. But I’m struggling with all the layers but belonging and self-actualization. SL seems like it is laden with the need to belong. Identities are exaggerated to make it clear as to who or what group the avatar is identifying with. And the self-actualization (cross-platform integration) really could be the holy grail for LL and programmers with a mind to see this opportunity (either through tools, platform, or per transaction). But all the rest there, it’s based on Maslow’s original design. Doesn’t work for me.
Ok, yes, you could have used overlapping circles, but then a good portion of your post’s ideas would have collapsed because there would be no more hierarchy. A minor point really, I don’t mean to harp on that one. Your points came across to me loud and clear.
Finally, business models, erm, successful business models involve a good deal of strategic planning, and marketing for me, always falls short in this area. I don’t think it’s nearly enough to get noticed, offer up the value propostion, and then be followed by a transaction. Sounds great, easily copied. In addition to the marketing of new ideas for financial gain, we also need to build barriers that limit our model’s reproducability. This comes in the form of inventing our own new technologies or efficient methods, protecting the costs of our inputs and materials, and making it very difficult for competition to compete in the same market spaces (exclusive distribution contracts and the like). Oh, let’s not forget removing the buyer’s bargaining power. Dusan, I am new to your blogs, but look forward to reading through the rest of your posts. Thank you.
nope- takes some work.. some effort.;) – but remember the “real” DisneyWorld isnt the Main Street Level, its the beige corridors below street level.
[...] Nethnology (255), SL (74), Web (1,348) Dusan Writer asks: Can Second Life Become a Great Brand? http://bit.ly/GJXCO [...]
[...] By a Thread: In the Land of the Technolibertarian – Dusan Writer [...]
Dusan, it’s not about liking Starbuck’s coffee. There was a study done on commercially made coffees and caffeine content. Apparently, Starbuck’s had 300 milligrams of caffeine per shot of espresso, and the next closest competitor was Tully’s, at 170 milligrams per shot. I always go to Starbucks. It’s the only way to make the headache go away. For the record, I don’t even like coffee…
Come to think of it, Second Life is a little like Starbucks in that regard. There are a whole bunch of things not to like, but when it comes right down to it, the closest competitor isn’t even close. Nobody else gives users the kind of access that Second Life does. Nobody else allows for a fully participatory experience. Nobody.
I had been wondering, idly, in that abstract, cerebral, comfortable-with-technology way that I have, how we, as a species, were going to integrate these new, world-altering technologies into our lives.
Each new technology required greater and greater abstraction, making it more and more remote from the interests of the average person. Most people are concrete and experiential. They have no affinity for code. I saw a split beginning to occur in our world, with technology becoming a tool of a minority with disproportionate power—like the Morlocks and the Eloi.
But Second Life puts a face on it. It yanks technology down out of the ether and puts it back into the hands of, well, everybody. I would hesitate to say it will save the world, but it is profoundly democratizing. It is, as you put it, tech that doesn’t _feel_ like tech. It folds our human strengths back into the batter.
“Your world. Your imagination.” Oh yes. Every last messy, emotional, impulsive, hyperbolic bit of it. For everyone.
Actually, Second Life /is/ a great brand. Maybe you have your own vision of what Second Life (and the metaverse) is about Dusan, but that’s not necessarily what either the rest of us or Linden may have in mind.
In terms of great brands, Second Life already has many of the hallmarks of the greatest: A fervent, dedicated audience that has (and will) stick with it. Consider some of the crap SL residents have had to put up with over the last 5 years or so – and yet they stay: Care to name any other brands that inspire that kind of loyalty? Hmmm….Apple?
Whatever course Second Life takes to its own greatness, let’s hope it isn’t distracted by armchair “experts” telling them what they need to be.
Wow, excellent stream-of-consciousness post.
Also spot on IMHO. It’s move it or lose it time for LL. Staying still will inevitably consign them to irrelevance.
[...] two articles that provide an idea of Dusan Writer’s thinking process: http://dusanwriter.com/ http://dusanwriter.com/index.php/2009/07/25/virtual-worlds-calling-cards-and-identity-interoperabili... [...]
I think anyone who has a mac, knows that there is not widespread support for the platform. There are plenty of PC users ready and willing to create the content for this game, and I am looking forward to doing so. Besides, who buys mac for gaming and wouldn’t be much better off using a windows based PC for that purpose?
I’m not sure that Second Life really constitutes a brand in any effective sense. Linden Lab, now, there’s a brand.
What Second Life describes feels too diverse to have any real brand-identity.
Hmmm – tateru – not sure I entirely agree, mainly because I wonder what the name recognition for Linden Lab is…I always think of them and they’re often mentioned in the context of “Linden Lab, makers of Second Life”.
But maybe I don’t understand the context – you’re saying the Lab has a clear brand identity and SL doesn’t is that why?
If that’s the case, I agree, and I suppose that’s my point. If SL itself doesn’t do a better job articulating a “brand identity/aspiration” as opposed to a “platform name”, say, then it can have tons of momentum but risks going the way of AOL or something.
@JSG – I’m not sure what part of my vision is in conflict with the Lab or residents but regardless I totally agree that SL has all the HALLMARKS of greatness. And heaven forbid I’m an armchair branding consultant – I’m just making some observations and voicing my own opinion, I’m not asking for the keys to the Lab.
Dusan, do you ever find yourself stopping to stare at an object in real life, trying to figure out how many prims it took to make it?
livin large in River City..lol
Brands need to reivent themselves to new audiences every few years. thats what great brands do.
IBM did it from the office to home
Apple from “pictures” to “music” to “phones”
AOL, Yahoo, and Google will not do this. though googles fate is still up in the air, all depending when the “pyramid” that felled AOL/ Yahoo- web advertising rates/schemes/ROI – fails again to do anything for those vc brands paying for it:) at that point google will have to demand its junior entitle users of free- to PAY for tools…..
or the house of cards will fail…. just like Netscape and AOL before…in their day..lol they WERE the brands of the wisdom of the crowds….
so much for another SF myth:)
[...] and anonymity online August 12, 2009 There is a vigourous debate going on at the moment on Dusan Writer’s blog and elsewhere, related to ThinkBalm’s policy on the use of real life name versus anonymous [...]
Cube – you just KNEW I popped in the AOL and Netscape references just for you.
Yes, companies need to reinvent themselves. But it’s a kind of “Built to Last” thing.
To quote from the book:
“”A visionary company,” they wrote, “doesn’t simply balance between preserving a tightly held core ideology and stimulating vigorous change and movement; it does both to the extreme.”"
So, sure, IBM reinvented itself, but it maintained its tightly held core ideology. Same with Apple.
For the first, “Technology Working”, say, and for the second, “Simplifying Life’s Experiences” maybe.
Core ideologies. You can practically TASTE it for both Apple and IBM. I have no idea what it was for AOL or Yahoo or Netscape and that’s the problem.
So while companies should stimulate vigorous change (and heaven knows Linden Lab is good at that), this must be coupled with tightly held ideologies.
So what’s SLs?
Oh…and while we’re on the Built to Last thing, here’s more of their list from ‘excellent companies’:
“The authors discovered that the visionary companies did certain things very differently from their duller rivals, things that in large part were more about the internal than the external and had little to do with technology or number-crunching. Among these were having “cultlike cultures”; adhering to an ideology that went beyond the simple pursuit of profits; relying on homegrown management; focusing on creating a lasting organization — called “clock building,” as opposed to “time telling”; and having the ability to see things not as either-or propositions (the “genius of the ‘and,’ ” in the authors’ words, as opposed to the “tyranny of the ‘or’ “).”
I agree that they need to simplify the viewer significantly. As currently presented, SL is not a tool for the masses. It’s for the techies…and near-techies. It needs an information architecture overhaul to reach my mom.
I’m not sure 2010 isn’t too late for what you suggest, especially considering the competition on the horizon from both the Blue Mars-types and the open sourcers.
Until then, I’ll just keep twisting prims and watching performers from all parts of the globe.
I agree, I relate Second Life to, say Internet… I think Lindens make or break is whether are able to be the ICANN of the 3d world, or they just would like to be remained a closed service like AOL or Prodigy.
They should be heading toward a direction where like Open Sim you can host your own servers, but Linden Lab/Second Life is the method of registration/payment/oversight
If millions come into SL right now Dusan, would SL hold up over the stress?
Exactly- What is the “real” TAO of Linden?
Im not sure how many times youve been to SF or worked here, but whats said and done, and whats meant to be said and done, usually are not the same here.:)
Malaby found it…it was found in whats NOT said, not what is:)
Your diary in SF sounds much like my “report” back to NYC when i came out here to look- to move west in 1995 at the birth of the 3dweb and online web1.0 bubbles…..:)
good luck finding a taxi.
I believe that when Second Life (or any other virtual world for that matter) becomes synonomous with Dreaming and just as easy-to-access and just as ubiquitous then it will become a great brand, just as Coke is synonomous with soft drink, IBM with computers, Apple with graphic interfaces (or music or phones, Starbucks with coffee (an it is awful coffee) and MacDonalds with food (hamburgers).
But when it does will I still remember it in the morning?
Sleep.. what a wonderful brand..mmmm…
zzzz. ah:)
I think the Homestead fiasco was definitely far more a detriment than a benefit; setting folks up to get comfy with a full region, then pulling the rug out from under them… only to offer them back that rug at an increased price.
I sincerely doubt the grandfathered price is going to carry through past a year, even though LL’s had a history of grandfathering full regions in to updated programs (like upgrading class 3s to 4s, 4s to 5s). So unless things have changed significantly by then, I think we can probably see a lot of unhappy and homeless folks by July of ‘10.
Hi Dusan – this is just such a great post! Gives me lots to think of in prep for speaking at SLCC on saturday. You really captured a big idea in that concept of ‘humanizing’ computing. I’ve thought about that before and I agree that is probably the right way to think about a big brand around the whole Virtual World idea.
I was recently reminded of just how real and important that ‘humanizing’ element is while helping 26 local educators from schools in Cabarrus County, North Carolina, learn to get started and find their own value in Second Life. (Julie LaChance even brought cupcakes for their rez day.) When we showed pictures of meeting SL friends at Disney or in New York or at ISTE/NECC they really lit up, something that is impossible to see in a purely virtual workshop session, by the way (Linden Labs needs to hire Juanita).
I have often said how much I dislike the name ‘Second Life.’ This is just life in different forms. When most people see that, they buy in and later realize the value of disconnecting from reality for a bit perhaps.
Great post Dusan. Obviously a lot of thought behind it.
The bots aren’t gone, they’ve just morphed a bit. Now you will find aimlessly wandering herds of bots moving through an otherwise vacant sim instead of bot farms at 3000m.
I agree with Aki that there is more Homestead drama coming as the 1 yr anniversary of the debacle comes around.
And LL has wonderful figures to boast about an economy as long as you don’t parse out the zero and 1L transactions, the Zyngo transactions, and the transactions by people pretending to be “day-traders” trying to turn a profit by moving L$’s between alt accounts and different L$ providers.
Remember the old adage; if it looks too good to be true, it probably is.
I look at the stats released by SL and shake my head in wonder… in my own personal experience, my two-year-old store has just had its worst quarter ever, after almost two years of small, steady, almost predictable growth.
I can’t help but wonder what exactly these transactions really indicate since I’ll bet a good percentage are main-account-to-alt-account transactions and don’t really mean anything except money is moving, but not really changing hands.
Bots are NOT gone, as I personally see a herd of them every time I go to pay my tier for my store… as long as ’some’ are allowed, no matter what good their purpose is supposed to be, then they will never be gotten rid of. I personally think we should ban model bots, and give those jobs to real avi’s… that how economy works, isn’t it? This ‘all for me” attitude is ruining SL.
dang, dusan, you were caffeinated when you wrote this
w/r/t Starbucks, it reminds me of the best/worst that someone said to sum up McDonalds: “[no matter where you are and visit a McDonalds] you know what you’re getting”.
As I was reading between the lines of your looking at SF and trying to make sense of it, you had a frame of reference, a collection of expectations, and you were holding that up to the immersive reality of now and trying to see what did and didn’t fit.
You are also playing with another kind of frame of reference, looking at histories of other technologies and companies that try to package and sell them, and compare that to the unfolding of virtual world technology under the LL/SL brand. You’re like a surfer who’s been studying the waves and how they come in, and trying to extrapolate that knowledge while sitting on your board in the bay, hoping to read them as they come in and start to form, so you can be in the right spot at the right time to catch a big one and have a bitchin ride.
You’re obviously in a mellow, grooved mood to not rip on Malcom Gladwell as you talk about tipping points
As I think about the inculturation of virtual worlds into our mainstream of interaction, I was pondering a conversation I had last night with one of my in-world friends. He’s lost most all of his interest in SL, saying for him, “the game is played out” (The metaphorical irony i saw in that was that it isn’t a game, per se…).
So as I looked at your blog about the financial report, and you and the comments were wanting to tease out some real meaning in the rather vague metrics, I have another kind to add… it seems to me, the accounts that are oldest and active are those who have developed a vested interest, mostly of a business kind, that keeps them active. It would be interesting to be able to measure and understand the excitement and interest levels of people over time. I saw one of the anthropologists talking about trying to get a handle on the dynamics of social groups, for instance, how they form, attract members, and what the life cycle of that is like in a virtual world compared to in other venues of our lives.
What I suspect is “your world; your imagination” only works as long as one is inspired to imagine, build, sell, or own. Unless SL fills some particular need for us that nothing else delivers, why stay? What is the types of life cycles of user interest, and what does that tell us about the potential horizons for this technology?